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The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => Topic started by: lordlance on February 02, 2025, 08:46:10 PM

Title: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: lordlance on February 02, 2025, 08:46:10 PM
After talking with @Brian, I have decided to start threads dedicated to conductors - a passion of mine since I started listening to classical music over a decade ago and which shapes much of my listening habits. One of my early fascinations has been Simon Rattle. His career remains a bit puzzling because he's famous but his reputations among listeners feels decidedly mixed to negative. He's often been accused of being excessively fussy.

His discography is not insignificantly large but most of it is from his CBSO Years on EMI. His real BPO legacy remains on the Digital Concert Hall (DCH) where aside from the core repertoire, he programmed a lot of modern music but also lesser known music from the greats such as - a real favorite - Schumann's Concert Piece for Four Horns. To me, Rattle ultimately is a composer for modern/contemporary music and not Romantic. music. 

It's a bit strange he's held such distinguished posts as MD of BPO, LSO and now BRSO, considering that you would think excelling at the core repertoire would be the bare minimum requirement. 

Of what I've heard from him in the standard repertoire, he remains entirely unremarkable. Mozart's 39-41, Brahms' symphonies, piano concertos (live performances on DCH are workmanlike), violin concerto, Beethoven's symphonies (the BPO cycle is absolutely awful if from the tempi than nothing else), Schumann's symphonies (again kind of OK). His Bruckner is exceptionally bad (that LSO Sixth - oof!)

I must say though that I did enjoy his Mahler Sixth with BPO from 2018 that was his farewell concert as MD. 

A real oddity might also be the Beethoven's VC with Widmann's cadenza. Strange and unusually long but novel at least.

What does stand out though is his programming of unusual pieces or composers such as recently playing the entire Slavonic Dances set with BPO (when was the last time they played that?) or now Gerhard's Symphony No. 3/Don Quixote, Beethoven's Christ on the Mount of Olives and many other things... The results may not always be successful but at least it's beyond the stale standard repertoire. 

I realize this isn't exactly a glowing review but still I've followed him closely for many years and still do as now with his videos that are on BRSO's website. 

Those are my 2 cents. What do others think of him and which composers do you think he succeeds at? 
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Mandryka on February 03, 2025, 05:39:31 AM
I heard him in Rheingold and it was OK, inoffensive. He was good in Pelleas. On record I enjoyed Sibelius 6 and Daphnis and aux canyons and Etoiles recently - he has a good feel for 20th century French music possibly. There are some excellent things with the Birmingham orchestra - Mahler 10 f. e.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 03, 2025, 06:00:48 AM
I've heard Rattle several times live with 3 different orchestras. Each time, it was a good-to-great concert. I do agree that he's probably more suited to modern music than standard rep. With standard rep, his main fault seems to be that he really wants to stand out against the crowd, so he'll make interpretive choices that are gratuitous or exaggerated. I also think he was somewhat over-praised and maybe over-recorded when he was just getting started.

Some Rattle recordings I like are his Adams disc with Harmonielehre, the Walton Sym #1, the DSCH Sym #4, and his disc of 3 Haydn symphonies including #90, which I heard him do live. All of those with Birmingham. That early Mahler 10 with Bournemouth is also good.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: vandermolen on February 03, 2025, 06:24:49 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 03, 2025, 06:00:48 AMI've heard Rattle several times live with 3 different orchestras. Each time, it was a good-to-great concert. I do agree that he's probably more suited to modern music than standard rep. With standard rep, his main fault seems to be that he really wants to stand out against the crowd, so he'll make interpretive choices that are gratuitous or exaggerated. I also think he was somewhat over-praised and maybe over-recorded when he was just getting started.

Some Rattle recordings I like are his Adams disc with Harmonielehre, the Walton Sym #1, the DSCH Sym #4, and his disc of 3 Haydn symphonies including #90, which I heard him do live. All of those with Birmingham. That early Mahler 10 with Bournemouth is also good.
I like his recording of Sibelius's 3rd Symphony (originally on EMI).
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: DavidW on February 03, 2025, 06:38:36 AM
Mahler's 10th and the Brahms symphonies spring to mind. I don't know if his recordings are ever bad. They're just not interesting enough to be competitive.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Der lächelnde Schatten on February 04, 2025, 10:58:26 AM
Certainly a hit/miss conductor --- mostly miss in my book. There are a few composers I find him absolutely fine in, though, like: the Second Viennese School, Szymanowski, some Debussy and Britten. That's about it! Oh and I do rather enjoy his recording of John Adams --- his Harmonielehre is still fantastic to my ears. [In Columbo voice] And just one more thing, I find his Mahler grossly overrated and undernourished. He just doesn't "have it" in Mahler.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Xerxes on February 10, 2025, 04:52:01 AM
I love this from Rattle:

Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Herman on February 11, 2025, 12:36:08 AM
I ain't no Rattle basher, however, if it's about the Lohengrin prelude, just go to the Dresden and Thielemann for more Wagnerian intensity (and fewer funny faces).

Starts at 2:05

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeBOfAXpojI
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: lordlance on February 15, 2025, 01:54:00 PM
My dive into Rattle continues...

1. First an actual half decent performance of Bruckner: this time of the Ninth (the incomplete edition thankfully) with the BRSO taken from November 2024. It's good to hear him perform Bruckner which isn't utterly workmanlike.

2. Rattle has performed a lot of Brahms (multiple recordings of the symphonies, VC, PCs exist on DCH). I decided to hear his most recent performance of the Second from 2018. Bad choice. What's with the lethargic tempi? He doesn't always adopt such plodding tempi. I gave up after 5-6 minutes. 
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: lordlance on February 20, 2025, 03:31:55 AM
Rattle update!


Preface before the third piece:

My introduction to the Sinfonia Concertante and 90 was thanks to Rattle's EMI disc of 88-92/SC. Listening to a proper live performance of the 90th and hearing Haydn prank the audience not once but twice was just delightful. It still is. The piece is not meant to be played in the studio. Rattle performed it during COVID without an audience with BRSO - IIRC - (on YouTube) and that was just kind of sad. Musical pauses for no reason. Still Rattle performing pieces like these is why I love him and have a great affinity for him even if his musical results can be lacklustre. That spirit of adventure, of programming unknown pieces, of such a wide, wide repertoire that stretches from baroque to contemporary, from American and jazz to Szymanowski. All conductors may program contemporary pieces but I get the feeling it's part of the job so they do the bare minimum as opposed to Rattle who has championed modern music consistently and programmed obscure pieces.

(OK, fanboying over.)


I know my musical vocabulary is severely limited so I can't write proper, detailed critique but I hope this was helpful to/piqued interest of a few people.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: André on February 20, 2025, 06:13:57 AM
I've seldom heard a Rattle recording I liked wholesale. There's always something in his conducting that attracts attention to his interpretive decisions. Which is fine, I guess. Except I feel he does that because he doesn't wholly trusts the listeners' judgment (or taste!).

For example, his much vaunted Birmingham Mahler 2. I feel he italicizes passages not for effect, but for building an argument. True, the end result is hugely impressive, but it makes me feel I've been subjected to a lecture that omits certain facts and stresses others. IOW it's not objective while purporting it to be. It's a very subjective feeling, but I can never shake the impression.

That being said, I agree he has been an important conducting figure throughout his various tenures, especially in his advocacy of contemporary music.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: DavidW on February 20, 2025, 08:57:48 AM
Quote from: André on February 20, 2025, 06:13:57 AMFor example, his much vaunted Birmingham Mahler 2. I feel he italicizes passages not for effect, but for building an argument. True, the end result is hugely impressive, but it makes me feel I've been subjected to a lecture that omits certain facts and stresses others. IOW it's not objective while purporting it to be. It's a very subjective feeling, but I can never shake the impression.

That is also how I felt about Kaplan's M2.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 20, 2025, 04:12:27 PM
Quote from: André on February 20, 2025, 06:13:57 AMI've seldom heard a Rattle recording I liked wholesale. There's always something in his conducting that attracts attention to his interpretive decisions. Which is fine, I guess. Except I feel he does that because he doesn't wholly trusts the listeners' judgment (or taste!).

Nicely put. These interpretive flourishes work better in concert than on a recording, because in a concert you only hear them once. But on repeated listening, they become somewhat annoying. That probably explains why my live experiences with Rattle have been so good but the recordings more of a mixed bag.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Peter Power Pop on February 20, 2025, 06:51:56 PM
I can thoroughly recommend Rattle's Stravinsky compilation (https://www.discogs.com/release/9905459-Stravinsky-Simon-Rattle-City-Of-Birmingham-Symphony-Orchestra-The-Rite-Of-Spring-Petrushka-The-Fireb):

(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b273468d41815748a6afed3891f6) (https://www.discogs.com/release/9905459-Stravinsky-Simon-Rattle-City-Of-Birmingham-Symphony-Orchestra-The-Rite-Of-Spring-Petrushka-The-Fireb)
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Peter Power Pop on February 20, 2025, 07:00:12 PM
I'd also like to recommend Simon Rattle: The Jazz Album (https://www.discogs.com/master/749558-Simon-Rattle-Milhaud-Gershwin-Stravinsky-Bernstein-Peter-Donohoe-Michael-Collins-3-Harvey-And-The-Wa), from 1987. It's a heap of fun, and almost as much fun as the album cover.

(https://i.discogs.com/6bq5ZxCjMtRbRn5S7p6Q341MVEWXpmPaX5eMFcqEAiE/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:467/w:480/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTEzNzY3/NTk3LTE1NjA3MDE4/MTYtNDEzNC5qcGVn.jpeg) (https://www.discogs.com/master/749558-Simon-Rattle-Milhaud-Gershwin-Stravinsky-Bernstein-Peter-Donohoe-Michael-Collins-3-Harvey-And-The-Wa)
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: arpeggio on June 17, 2025, 02:21:38 PM
There must be something wrong with my ears.
I know he has a mixed reputation with some.
I have been listening to Rattle for years.  I may dislike some of his interpretations but I normally enjoy his stuff.
I subscribe to Marque.  Right now I am listening to Rattle conducting the Roy Harris Third Symphony.  It sounds OK to me.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: lordlance on June 18, 2025, 07:25:09 AM
Quote from: arpeggio on June 17, 2025, 02:21:38 PMThere must be something wrong with my ears.
I know he has a mixed reputation with some.
I have been listening to Rattle for years.  I may dislike some of his interpretations but I normally enjoy his stuff.
I subscribe to Marque.  Right now I am listening to Rattle conducting the Roy Harris Third Symphony.  It sounds OK to me.
Well Rattle _is_ a modernist apparently which is why it makes it a bit puzzling for such major orchestras that essentially need you to excel at traditional Classical/Romantic repertoire -- there he is rather... underwhelming/a bit faceless. 

The breadth of his repertoire, though, is rather large. One can find a lot of new stuff just following his recordings and concerts [YT, DCH, br-klassik.de.]

Can't fault him for boring picks if nothing else.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Karl Henning on June 18, 2025, 07:58:11 AM
Quote from: lordlance on June 18, 2025, 07:25:09 AMRattle _is_ a modernist apparently which is why it makes it a bit puzzling for such major orchestras that essentially need you to excel at traditional Classical/Romantic repertoire -- there he is rather... underwhelming/a bit faceless.
More than I can speak to, though on the face of it, it sounds reasonable. I've enjoyed him in practically everything I've heard him do, but then, I haven't sought him out in the mainstream rep.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: DavidW on June 18, 2025, 08:04:24 AM
Quote from: arpeggio on June 17, 2025, 02:21:38 PMThere must be something wrong with my ears.
I know he has a mixed reputation with some.
I have been listening to Rattle for years.  I may dislike some of his interpretations but I normally enjoy his stuff.
I subscribe to Marque.  Right now I am listening to Rattle conducting the Roy Harris Third Symphony.  It sounds OK to me.


Myself and others said that he wasn't bad, just underwhelming and overhyped.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Herman on June 18, 2025, 12:35:46 PM
Clearly Rattle does something orchestras like, I mean, LSO, BPO and now BRSO...

I agree with previous posters who say he hardly ever is best.

I remember watching a Sol Gabetta performance of the Elgar Cello concerto, with the Berlin Phil conducted by Rattle, and noticing that Gabetta kind of took over direction, by keeping eye contact with the concertmaster to her right, because Rattle was just not quite there.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Mandryka on June 19, 2025, 05:33:29 AM
Quote from: Herman on June 18, 2025, 12:35:46 PMClearly Rattle does something orchestras like, I mean, LSO, BPO and now BRSO...

I agree with previous posters who say he hardly ever is best.

I remember watching a Sol Gabetta performance of the Elgar Cello concerto, with the Berlin Phil conducted by Rattle, and noticing that Gabetta kind of took over direction, by keeping eye contact with the concertmaster to her right, because Rattle was just not quite there.

That reminds of a time when I saw him conduct an unstaged Wagner opera and at some point he put his baton down and just listened to the music. In fact, I knew the guy who sang Fasholt in the performance and he never commented on it, he thought all went well.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: lordlance on June 20, 2025, 05:03:25 AM
Despite being one of the six non British Rattle fans, despite the vitriolic phrasing of Dave, he has a point when he was going over the CBSO box... He made our 50 or 60 discs with them... Another twenty? With BPO.... Let's say another 15 with BRSO and LSO combined... We're talking about a discography that's 80-90 discs... How much, if any of it, will survive the test of time? In the standard repertoire that is.

Not a lot of competition for things like a Henze symphony or Peter Maxwell Davies 1 or Turnage...

Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Herman on June 20, 2025, 11:49:39 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 19, 2025, 05:33:29 AMThat reminds of a time when I saw him conduct an unstaged Wagner opera and at some point he put his baton down and just listened to the music. In fact, I knew the guy who sang Fasholt in the performance and he never commented on it, he thought all went well.

It could mean everything was well prepared in rehearsal.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: San Antone on June 21, 2025, 04:49:45 AM
Some recordings by Simon Rattle which I think are surprisingly good were his Gershwin group:

Rhapsody in Blue
The Songbook
Piano Concerto in F (all with pianist Peter Donohoe)

And most impressive, his recording of Porgy & Bess in at the time the most complete version.

Rattle managed to do a very good job with this most American of composers.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Brian on June 21, 2025, 07:46:19 PM
Quote from: ultralinear on June 21, 2025, 04:43:49 AMThat was my impression on the occasion when I saw Gerd Albrecht conduct Bruckner's 8th Symphony, in which at various points he let his arms hang by his sides, appearing simply to be listening to what was one of the most convincing performances I'd heard, needing no additional direction by that stage.
Albrecht and his orchestra are so experienced in Bruckner that it would not surprise me.

Similarly when I saw Antoni Wit in Warsaw with Mahler 3, he simply counted 1-2-3-4 (or 1-2-3) and did nothing else whatsoever. The one exception was to turn and face the children's chorus for all of "bim-bam."
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 22, 2025, 09:23:30 AM
DG released a video in which various performers reminisced about their interaction with Karajan. Rattle appeared, and after remarking that Karajan had been very kind and generous with him early in his career, went on to excoriate Karajan's musical legacy. It put me off Rattle as a self-important, ungrateful asshole. I don't recall listening to any Rattle after seeing that.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Der lächelnde Schatten on June 25, 2025, 01:48:35 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 22, 2025, 09:23:30 AMDG released a video in which various performers reminisced about their interaction with Karajan. Rattle appeared, and after remarking that Karajan had been very kind and generous with him early in his career, went on to excoriate Karajan's musical legacy. It put me off Rattle as a self-important, ungrateful asshole. I don't recall listening to any Rattle after seeing that.

The thing with Rattle is there isn't much repertoire that he's recorded that someone else hasn't done already with the exception of some British composers like Adès or Nicholas Maw. When he speaks about not caring much for Karajan, it really doesn't matter, because Karajan's grip on the Austro-Germanic repertoire will elude Rattle for as long as he lives. Also, it doesn't matter how hard Rattle works, Karajan's place in the history of this music will continue to weigh on Rattle who really hasn't made much of a dent.

That's my two measly cents. I like some of Rattle's recordings, but I wouldn't say he's the bee's knees.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Herman on June 26, 2025, 01:07:38 PM
Quote from: Der lächelnde Schatten on June 25, 2025, 01:48:35 PMAlso, it doesn't matter how hard Rattle works, Karajan's place in the history of this music will continue to weigh on Rattle who really hasn't made much of a dent.

Why would this apply to Rattle in particular?

Nobody will ever record as much and to such general applause as Karajan, due to the era he matured in. Ormandy and Szell came close.
No conductor with a recording contract will ever again be as massively big as Karajan.Rattle is of course fully aware of this, and by the way it looks he's having a wonderful life just the same, playing with the best orchestras in Europe (with the exception of Amsterdam which wants no truck with him).
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Mandryka on June 26, 2025, 01:21:40 PM
 
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Karl Henning on June 26, 2025, 02:37:34 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 22, 2025, 09:23:30 AMDG released a video in which various performers reminisced about their interaction with Karajan. Rattle appeared, and after remarking that Karajan had been very kind and generous with him early in his career, went on to excoriate Karajan's musical legacy. It put me off Rattle as a self-important, ungrateful asshole. I don't recall listening to any Rattle after seeing that.
Very bad form.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: DavidW on June 26, 2025, 06:52:06 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 26, 2025, 01:21:40 PM

That Berlin Phil interview paints a very different picture from the DG interview that Spotted Horses described. Rattle sees Karajan as both a great artist and an eccentric. It is a very real interview. The kind of honesty we should be praising.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Herman on June 27, 2025, 01:03:42 AM
So is this perhaps the Rattle-on-Karajan talk Spotted H talks about?

Rattle says he doesn't understand how Karajan conducted with his eyes closed and it's clear he would never want to do this himself. But that's the whole thing.
Later he talks about Karajan being so kind and courteous when R and K met in Berlin.

If this is the video then it's yet another case of blowing things musicians say way out of proportion.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Iota on June 27, 2025, 03:04:24 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 26, 2025, 06:52:06 PMThat Berlin Phil interview paints a very different picture from the DG interview that Spotted Horses described. Rattle sees Karajan as both a great artist and an eccentric. It is a very real interview. The kind of honesty we should be praising.

I must say I agree with this. I don't really get along with quite a bit of Rattle what does (though some things I find superb), but here I think he is just giving an honest opinion, delivered directly but without malice and I respect him for it. As @DavidW says Rattle is both in awe of and confounded by Karajan, who still bestrides the musical world with a vast and adoring following, and these comments I imagine will make no difference to that at all.

Quote from: Herman on June 27, 2025, 01:03:42 AMRattle says he doesn't understand how Karajan conducted with his eyes closed and it's clear he would never want to do this himself.

A school friend of mine who was in the European Youth Orchestra in the 70s when Karajan came to conduct them (very much in the spirit of wanting to help young musicians as Rattle describes), said they were all really amused by how he always kept his eyes closed, and so one day in a rehearsal, when Karajan closed his eyes to bring them in, they closed their eyes too (very boldly imo!), and when his hands came down there was complete silence. Obviously he opened his eyes, and when he saw the sea of faces with closed eyes he took it very well and started laughing. He then explained that the reason he closed his eyes was because he had a photographic memory and was following the score in his head as he conducted it.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: DavidW on June 27, 2025, 05:19:26 AM
Quote from: Herman on June 27, 2025, 01:03:42 AMSo is this perhaps the Rattle-on-Karajan talk Spotted H talks about?

Rattle says he doesn't understand how Karajan conducted with his eyes closed and it's clear he would never want to do this himself. But that's the whole thing.
Later he talks about Karajan being so kind and courteous when R and K met in Berlin.

If this is the video then it's yet another case of blowing things musicians say way out of proportion.

I think Spotted Horses was talking about a different interview. I was once interviewed by PBS, and it went for 5-10 minutes and only roughly 30 seconds taken from different parts end up being used. In my case it was not malicious, but it could have easily been that way for Rattle in the DG interview. The Berlin Phil interview left his long, conflicted thoughts intact.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: relm1 on June 27, 2025, 05:54:55 AM
Quote from: Iota on June 27, 2025, 03:04:24 AMI must say I agree with this. I don't really get along with quite a bit of Rattle what does (though some things I find superb), but here I think he is just giving an honest opinion, delivered directly but without malice and I respect him for it. As @DavidW says Rattle is both in awe of and confounded by Karajan, who still bestrides the musical world with a vast and adoring following, and these comments I imagine will make no difference to that at all.

A school friend of mine who was in the European Youth Orchestra in the 70s when Karajan came to conduct them (very much in the spirit of wanting to help young musicians as Rattle describes), said they were all really amused by how he always kept his eyes closed, and so one day in a rehearsal, when Karajan closed his eyes to bring them in, they closed their eyes too (very boldly imo!), and when his hands came down there was complete silence. Obviously he opened his eyes, and when he saw the sea of faces with closed eyes he took it very well and started laughing. He then explained that the reason he closed his eyes was because he had a photographic memory and was following the score in his head as he conducted it.

Lovely story!  I love it when we hear of musician jokes from orchestras.  Here is one I heard about, Andre Previn had just taken over the LSO I think in the late 1960's.  The orchestra was going to haze him because he was very young, American, and mostly known as a jazz pianist/film composer at that point.  The oboist detuned their A up to a B flat and the whole orchestra tuned incorrectly.  Previn walked to the podium, raised his hands about to give the downbeat, paused then asked the whole orchestra to transpose the piece down a half step.  Everyone laughed because he caught the joke/trap they had set.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Der lächelnde Schatten on June 27, 2025, 06:14:22 AM
Quote from: Herman on June 26, 2025, 01:07:38 PMWhy would this apply to Rattle in particular?

Nobody will ever record as much and to such general applause as Karajan, due to the era he matured in. Ormandy and Szell came close.
No conductor with a recording contract will ever again be as massively big as Karajan.Rattle is of course fully aware of this, and by the way it looks he's having a wonderful life just the same, playing with the best orchestras in Europe (with the exception of Amsterdam which wants no truck with him).

I get the feeling from Rattle that he thinks he's somehow more important than the music he's conducting, but also there was no reason for him to slight Karajan publicly like he did in that DG interview that @Spotted Horses mentioned. What Karajan did for the Berliner Philharmoniker was more than Rattle ever did for them. In fact, Rattle wouldn't have even been afforded the opportunity to lead them if it wasn't for Karajan. It's kind of like some hotshot coming into the New York Philharmonic and publicly dissing Gustav Mahler or Leonard Bernstein. Rattle's attitude smacks of disrespect and ungratefulness.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Herman on June 27, 2025, 06:41:09 AM
Well, I don't think there's any of this in Rattle. He doesn't feel he's better than the music, or the composer or Karajan or any other major conductor before him.

It's perfectly fine if his recordings are not to your taste, but there's no reason to go all hurwitz on him.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Der lächelnde Schatten on June 27, 2025, 06:53:58 AM
Quote from: Herman on June 27, 2025, 06:41:09 AMWell, I don't think there's any of this in Rattle. He doesn't feel he's better than the music, or the composer or Karajan or any other major conductor before him.

It's perfectly fine if his recordings are not to your taste, but there's no reason to go all hurwitz on him.

As I mentioned, there are some Rattle recordings that I love. Just because I'm not nodding my head along with your own doesn't mean that I'm "going all Hurwitz on him." I don't hate Rattle and the implication that I do is a gross mischaracterization of what I've said.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 03, 2025, 08:54:19 AM
Quote from: relm1 on June 27, 2025, 05:54:55 AMLovely story!  I love it when we hear of musician jokes from orchestras.  Here is one I heard about, Andre Previn had just taken over the LSO I think in the late 1960's.  The orchestra was going to haze him because he was very young, American, and mostly known as a jazz pianist/film composer at that point.  The oboist detuned their A up to a B flat and the whole orchestra tuned incorrectly.  Previn walked to the podium, raised his hands about to give the downbeat, paused then asked the whole orchestra to transpose the piece down a half step.  Everyone laughed because he caught the joke/trap they had set.

When I was at the Guildhall School in London (early 80's) Previn came in to conduct the main orchestra (I wasn't playing).  He had this famously acute hearing so a horn player decided to play a note (or short phrase - I can't remember) wrong to see what he said.  The first time he let it go, but when it was repeated he stopped the orchestra and in a perfectly pleasant manner asked the player in question to check his part.  He really did know every single line of the orchestra and he could hear it.  Previn was an extraordinary musician I reckon......
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Karl Henning on July 05, 2025, 08:01:01 AM
Cross-post:

Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: ultralinear on July 05, 2025, 08:31:15 AM
Quote from: Karl Henning on July 05, 2025, 08:01:01 AMCross-post:


Interesting.  I saw him conduct this as part of a mixed program spanning several eras, and thought it very convincing and by far the best part of the evening. :)
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Karl Henning on July 05, 2025, 08:34:27 AM
Quote from: ultralinear on July 05, 2025, 08:31:15 AMInteresting.  I saw him conduct this as part of a mixed program spanning several eras, and thought it very convincing and by far the best part of the evening. :)
Nice!
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: Number Six on July 05, 2025, 05:49:21 PM
Rattle's Berlin Mahler 2 was the first Mahler that spoke to me. I had tried M before, but it never got through.

This one did, and it opened the floodgates of the composer's work. I will always love Rattle for that. Another day, I suppose it might have been Bernstein or Solti or Fischer or Chailly or Haitink or Vanska or Walter.

But it was Rattle who did it for me.
Title: Re: Simon Rattle (1955-)
Post by: lordlance on July 05, 2025, 07:32:23 PM
Quote from: ultralinear on July 05, 2025, 08:31:15 AMInteresting.  I saw him conduct this as part of a mixed program spanning several eras, and thought it very convincing and by far the best part of the evening. :)
It's his "thing" -- programming works consecutively without pauses.

A common one is Ligeti Atmospheres+Wagner Lohengrin Prelude to Act I.
Another is Sibelius 6-7.
The 'pieces' trilogy together - Webern, Berg, Arnold - for a giant single Pieces - 


QuoteDuring rehearsal, he and the orchestra had come to realise that the sets by Schoenberg, Webern, and Berg were best understood as one great, eleventh symphony by Mahler.