In the music world, digital downloads are DRM free. I consider downloads and physical media as interchangeable in terms of ownership.
For movies, Movies Anywhere is, I think good enough. BUT still...
For books, ebooks are restrictive. Both Kindle and Nook have removed the ability to download titles. I've reacted by pivoting towards print books, especially since subscription reading glasses has made it so that I can read fine print.
I am moving forward to being print only, with reading and also buying any TV show or movie that I cherish. MI pushed me to own any music that I love, and he was right on that front.
Where do you stand? What are you fine with streaming, renting, and licensing? What do you wish to own?
For all items, but dvds, I prefer digital ownership (so, for instance, I don't use Steam, as I don't own that save the games I already bought on Steam).
Are Amazon ceasing Kindle downloads? They're still showing prices to buy them in the UK.
Quote from: DavidW on March 05, 2025, 02:50:20 PMIn the music world, digital downloads are DRM free. I consider downloads and physical media as interchangeable in terms of ownership.
For movies, Movies Anywhere is, I think good enough. BUT still...
For books, ebooks are restrictive. Both Kindle and Nook have removed the ability to download titles. I've reacted by pivoting towards print books, especially since subscription reading glasses has made it so that I can read fine print.
I am moving forward to being print only, with reading and also buying any TV show or movie that I cherish. MI pushed me to own any music that I love, and he was right on that front.
Where do you stand? What are you fine with streaming, renting, and licensing? What do you wish to own?
Real books with paper, CD's, DVD/Blu-Ray's all the way!
One of our cars (2018) has no CD player: it uses a computer "jump" drive, so I need to transfer things from the CD collection - or get them off YouTube - to hear things in that car.
I buy more real books than CDs, which I buy less and less to the point where I probably won't buy another CD this year, and beyond. But most of my new book purchases are for my Kindle.
I don't purchase music downloads anymore.
I have bought something like 150-200 DVDs but don't see me doing that anymore.
Basically, I am fine with streaming but feel no need to get rid of the physical media I still own.
Quote from: steve ridgway on March 05, 2025, 04:55:16 PMAre Amazon ceasing Kindle downloads? They're still showing prices to buy them in the UK.
They stopped (last week) the ability to download files of Kindle books
for use on another device. For example, if you wanted to copy the file onto a non-Amazon-made reader.
Quote from: Brian on March 05, 2025, 07:21:46 PMThey stopped (last week) the ability to download files of Kindle books for use on another device. For example, if you wanted to copy the file onto a non-Amazon-made reader.
I see. Thanks for that.
Quote from: Brian on March 05, 2025, 07:21:46 PMThey stopped (last week) the ability to download files of Kindle books for use on another device. For example, if you wanted to copy the file onto a non-Amazon-made reader.
Or even on their device. The first two generations of Kindles don't have Wi-Fi, and the 3G network has been retired. The Wi-Fi antenna on my third-generation Kindle has stopped working as well. USB is the only way I can put ebooks on it.
For music: downloads.
For books: a mix of physical copies and online reading.
I like to rewatch old favorite movies and TV, and for that I want to keep the files on my devices. I don't want to be at the mercy of streaming services. Even worse, great shows are lost forever because they were never put on disc at all.
Look at what happened to The Magic Toyshop, The Race for the Double Helix and Shoulder to Shoulder. The available copies are VHS or worse. I'm saving the good old stuff that might disappear some day.
Ebooks have the advantage that you can search, and of course they don't take up shelf space, and don't get lost. But to read, they're OK for the sort of fiction where you start at the beginning and work you're way to the end. But where you want to jump about, browse, skip etc, print is better. Imagine trying to read Gravity's Rainbow or Absalom Absalom on a kindle! For those books you need both the physical media and the ebook.
I wouldn't dream of going to physical media for film or music.
If you're a physicalist like me, this is a vital weapon in your arsenal.
Disks can rot or scratch, but a well backed up library of music and video files will last as long as you want.
Quote from: DavidW on March 06, 2025, 04:51:27 AMOr even on their device. The first two generations of Kindles don't have Wi-Fi, and the 3G network has been retired. The Wi-Fi antenna on my third-generation Kindle has stopped working as well. USB is the only way I can put ebooks on it.
My girlfriend just ordered a Kobo e-reader to free herself from the Kindle ecoysystem because she had one of the early Kindles and, like yours, hers is now useless. It arrives today, actually.
Quote from: Brian on March 17, 2025, 11:01:12 AMMy girlfriend just ordered a Kobo e-reader to free herself from the Kindle ecoysystem because she had one of the early Kindles and, like yours, hers is now useless. It arrives today, actually.
Have fun with the Kobo.
Really happy with mine 3 months down the line. Even if I have just found out that my purchases on the Kobo store are not physically "mine" either and only a licensing to access the book, just like AMZ. At least, we can still download them for transfer on another reader down the line.
For owning outright, I recommend purchases of editions on Delphi Classics that you can sideload on the Kobo.
https://www.delphiclassics.com/complete-catalogue/ (https://www.delphiclassics.com/complete-catalogue/)
Obviously a large chunk of those are in public domain and can be found individually on Gutenberg or Standard Ebooks but the Delphi editions are well presented, full of additional goodies and worth the asking price (particularly with their regular offers/promotional codes).
Edit: you can either buy the complete edition (all the books of an author in one EPUB) or in the slightly dearer Parts Edition (All the books in individual EPUBS, plus an access to DL the complete edition as well)
Quote from: Papy Oli on March 18, 2025, 07:37:40 AMEven if I have just found out that my purchases on the Kobo store are not physically "mine" either and only a licensing to access the book, just like AMZ.
Some publishers like Tor request that the book be DRM-free. The difference between Kindle and Kobo is that Kobo will honor the request, and you can download the ebook DRM-free. Obviously, most publishers want DRM, but not all.
And it is not hard to liberate Kobo ebooks. And even if you don't, Adobe DRM would allow you to legally transfer your library to a Nook, Pocketbook, Tolino, etc (basically everything but a Kindle).
I don't buy the same-ism narrative about Kindle vs. Kobo and owning books.
Quote from: DavidW on March 18, 2025, 09:08:25 AMSome publishers like Tor request that the book be DRM-free. The difference between Kindle and Kobo is that Kobo will honor the request, and you can download the ebook DRM-free. Obviously, most publishers want DRM, but not all.
And it is not hard to liberate Kobo ebooks. And even if you don't, Adobe DRM would allow you to legally transfer your library to a Nook, Pocketbook, Tolino, etc (basically everything but a Kindle).
I don't buy the same-ism narrative about Kindle vs. Kobo and owning books.
I mentioned the kobo flexibility in the remaining line of the paragraph you only partially quoted.
That said, I was under the impression (my mistake obviously) that I owned the books I purchased from the Kobo store (and many others would seem to be under that same incorrect impression, based on posts on the kobo reddit of people migrating from AMZ to Kobo in the last few weeks) but they are only licensing purchases, as per their T&C's. In that they are no different to Kindle, regardless of flexibility, download ability or DRM work-around.
Quote from: Papy Oli on March 18, 2025, 09:53:38 AMbut they are only licensing purchases, as per their T&C's. In that they are no different to Kindle, regardless of flexibility, download ability or DRM work-around.
I understand what you are saying, but perhaps you should elaborate on what you define as owning. I consider having a DRM-free copy that I can put on any device that I want and can't be taken away if my account is terminated as owning. You never own the intellectual property of the book even when you have it in print. All digital goods are licensed, the question in my mind is whether you can freely access it without constraint.
I purchased the Vanska Mahler symphonies from Eclassical. If Eclassical were to remove it from my download library, close my account, or just go bankrupt I would still have access to those symphonies because I have copies on multiple hard drives, and accessing them is independent of anything else associated with Eclassical. Contrast that with a Kindle eBook. In order to maintain access to that eBook I need to always own a Kindle or use the Kindle app on a device that supports it. If Amazon closes my account or discontinues the Kindle ecosystem I lose access to that book.
But in both cases, the downloads are licensed material! But one feels like owning and the other does not. But apparently, that licensing agreement is more important to you than the issue of downloads and DRM. Why?
Quote from: DavidW on March 18, 2025, 11:54:56 AMI understand what you are saying, but perhaps you should elaborate on what you define as owning. I consider having a DRM-free copy that I can put on any device that I want and can't be taken away if my account is terminated as owning. You never own the intellectual property of the book even when you have it in print. All digital goods are licensed, the question in my mind is whether you can freely access it without constraint.
I purchased the Vanska Mahler symphonies from Eclassical. If Eclassical were to remove it from my download library, close my account, or just go bankrupt I would still have access to those symphonies because I have copies on multiple hard drives, and accessing them is independent of anything else associated with Eclassical. Contrast that with a Kindle eBook. In order to maintain access to that eBook I need to always own a Kindle or use the Kindle app on a device that supports it. If Amazon closes my account or discontinues the Kindle ecosystem I lose access to that book.
But in both cases, the downloads are licensed material! But one feels like owning and the other does not. But apparently, that licensing agreement is more important to you than the issue of downloads and DRM. Why?
Sorry, I think I got a bit mangled between licensed and being DRM-protected. It is only that latter point that I wanted to highlight in terms of the Kobo store books.
I do completely agree with your definition of owning, i.e. a DRM-free item that you have purchased outright (e.g. a FLAC album from Presto or an EPUB from Delphi editions) that you can rename, edit, re-tag, convert, backup & save to your hearts' contents for your own personal use.
Because I had read of such opposition between Kobo & Kindle's behaviour of late, in terms mostly what one can do or can't do with the respective devices & files, I had assumed (again wrongly) that the Kobo store purchased e-books were DRM-free so I was surprised when I read it was not the case.
Yes, they can be worked around DRM-wise and offer more flexibility/transferability but it doesn't feel to me like a full ownership of the file (as per above definition) from purchase unless you contravene the DRM block.
(note: I have downloaded and backed up those Kobo purchases so that's indeed one major plus compared to Kindle now; I have not looked into the DRM workaround yet nor have I tried the DRM'ed Kepubs into Calibre to see if you can rework them or not in its original state - I assume not ?).
Again, I remain very happy with the Kobo and its environment, above all the love of reading it is giving me.
Quote from: Papy Oli on March 19, 2025, 05:23:52 AMBecause I had read of such opposition between Kobo & Kindle's behaviour of late, in terms mostly what one can do or can't do with the respective devices & files, I had assumed (again wrongly) that the Kobo store purchased e-books were DRM-free so I was surprised when I read it was not the case.
Yes, I think that the problem was that many prominent booktubers and booktokers thought that the Kobo epubs were DRM-free, and told their audience that! They forgot installing the nodrm plugin or were just honestly confused. That caused many new users to not understand. It also didn't help that a major YouTube said that Kobo was "open" unlike Amazon. And at that time of his video, Kindle still allowed downloads. I and many others were really irritated by the misinformation which he also never corrected.
I like books, so l own them.
I like CDs and SACDs, so l own them ( though it should be said that my collection has been small for a good number of years now ).
And when it comes to streaming films vs. Blu-rays, there are enough advantages to owning physical media that l expect to retain certain favorites in their physical form indefinitely.
With ownership of the physical product, I feel I have a tangible experience with the music that you simply don't get by streaming/downloading. The cover art, liner notes --- just the whole package is special to me and in our current time feels like I'm holding some piece of history or some ancient relic. Of course, I don't expect anyone else to uphold these same beliefs or place importance in the same things I do as this would be unrealistic and rather egotistical of me to assume that these things should have the same meaning for everyone.
It does bring a certain feeling of melancholy to me knowing that we seem to be approaching some kind of demise of past ways, which, in turn, makes me cling to my CDs, DVDs and books even more. I'm just thankful I have been afforded the opportunity to have the collection I have and that there are other people in my life who are willing to put up with my madness after all of these years. It can't be easy to live with someone who is obsessed with music 24/7.
Quote from: Der lächelnde Schatten on March 19, 2025, 09:10:07 AMWith ownership of the physical product, I feel I have a tangible experience with the music that you simply don't get by streaming/downloading. The cover art, liner notes --- just the whole package is special to me and in our current time feels like I'm holding some piece of history or some ancient relic. Of course, I don't expect anyone else to uphold these same beliefs or place importance in the same things I do as this would be unrealistic and rather egotistical of me to assume that these things should have the same meaning for everyone.
It does bring a certain feeling of melancholy to me knowing that we seem to be approaching some kind of demise of past ways, which, in turn, makes me cling to my CDs, DVDs and books even more. I'm just thankful I have been afforded the opportunity to have the collection I have and that there are other people in my life who are willing to put up with my madness after all of these years. It can't be easy to live with someone who is obsessed with music 24/7.
That bolded sentence has defined me since at least 1973. :laugh:
Quote from: LKB on March 19, 2025, 07:36:17 PMThat bolded sentence has defined me since at least 1973. :laugh:
:laugh:
I am reminded that there are some circumstances when I feel a need to possess, and not just stream a recording. The Machonchy String Quartets are very special to me, I consider them on par with the best 20th century string quartet cycles (Shostakovich, Bartok, Martinu, Hindemith, Rubbra, Krenek, Toch, Bacewicz, etc). There is only one cycle, which has been released on several dicy labels (Regis, Unicorn). The CD set I have is labeled Regis and one track has digital defects (a halo of static surrounding the sound in the finale of the 8th quartet). Miraculously I found it on Apple Music free from any defect, but it is on an even more obscure label, Treasure Island. And no lossless download available anywhere I can find. The CDs are offered for sale, but I suspect they are made from the same defective master. If it disappears from Apple Music, I'm screwed!
When something is "important" I feel the need to have the audio data on my hard disk (download or ripped from physical media makes no difference.)
I haven't bought a physical book in ages - I have very limited shelf space, so I go for e-books only. For audio files, I prefer a physical CD, but will download something and burn a CD of it if that's possible. But I miss getting the liner notes, so I consider that an inferior medium. I don't generally watch movies or even episodes of TV series more than once, so I have very few physical DVDs - but I was an avid Netflix subscriber before they shut down their rental service. Overall I loathe streaming services - especially Hulu, which charges you a subscription fee but then has the chutzpah to insert commercials into their shows. I have their free trial right now to watch The Handmaid's Tale S6, but will definitely drop them as soon as the series is finished, maybe sooner.
Quote from: krummholz on May 08, 2025, 03:59:51 AMI haven't bought a physical book in ages - I have very limited shelf space, so I go for e-books only. For audio files, I prefer a physical CD, but will download something and burn a CD of it if that's possible. But I miss getting the liner notes, so I consider that an inferior medium. I don't generally watch movies or even episodes of TV series more than once, so I have very few physical DVDs - but I was an avid Netflix subscriber before they shut down their rental service. Overall I loathe streaming services - especially Hulu, which charges you a subscription fee but then has the chutzpah to insert commercials into their shows. I have their free trial right now to watch The Handmaid's Tale S6, but will definitely drop them as soon as the series is finished, maybe sooner.
Until recently l was a subscriber to Amazon's Prime Music. This was partly out of curiosity, and partly out of the desire for access to recordings which I'm either a) unfamiliar with or b) own, but the CD is in commercial storage.
Last week l went to the site, selected von Karajan's commercial DG recording of Bruckner's Symphony No. 5, and started the opening movement.
The sound quality was so bad ( even with these old ears ) that l abandoned the experience after less than sixty seconds of listening.
Once again, access to physical media proves unreplacable.
I play a physical CD less and less these days and all my reading is via Epub from my local library. I've even done some digital downloads of music rather than buying the CD though I miss the liner notes which just seem to add to the 'owning experience'. I've even digitised my whole CD and DVD collection as I tend to use my PC a lot and I've got a WiFi streamer attached to my HiFi amplifier which means I can cast to that from my PC or my iPad. That said, I do get real pleasure of taking a CD out of its jacket, placing it into my little Rotel CD11 and pressing play on the remote.
Quote from: drogulus on March 06, 2025, 10:20:52 AMI don't want to be at the mercy of streaming services.
Nor me!
Funny enough, yesterday evening I went home and my internet was out. I enjoyed listening to some CDs that don't require internet access.
The internet being out is not a problem. A massive and prolonged blackout, otoh... ;D
Quote from: Florestan on May 10, 2025, 07:29:25 AMThe internet being out is not a problem. A massive and prolonged blackout, otoh... ;D
Luckily for me, the power is really good where I live. When I lived in town, I had to suffer outages frequently.
Quote from: DavidW on May 10, 2025, 10:46:45 AMLuckily for me, the power is really good where I live. When I lived in town, I had to suffer outages frequently.
I'm lucky here that it doesn't go out very often; when it does, they restore it quite quickly. I believe that the longest it's been out for was under 3 hours?
K
Too much streaming is bad for the soul imo and according to my experience. Too high-tech dependency.
One is inclined to add all kinds of stuff into ones library. I have no overview. It's a mess. My cds are also often a mess, but it's a different mess. I don't like to push all kinds of buttons. It's neat, but it doesn't work, it gives only a illusion of overview, order and control.
Cds are beautiful products.
I do stream, I alternate between streaming and playing cds.
Movies: sometimes I watch a movie on prime. I rarely want to see a movie, rarely something interesting, so I desubscribe and subcribe quite often. Games even worse, you don't really know what you're buying. I consider myself too old to play video games, I'm not really interested anymore. Same here 'high-tech neatness' to which I can't get used.
Ocassionaly I purchase cds. I also purchase albums on Bandcamp, so artists get their money and can continue to make music.
I need physical books.
Quote from: Der lächelnde Schatten on March 19, 2025, 09:10:07 AMWith ownership of the physical product, I feel I have a tangible experience with the music that you simply don't get by streaming/downloading. The cover art, liner notes --- just the whole package is special to me and in our current time feels like I'm holding some piece of history or some ancient relic. Of course, I don't expect anyone else to uphold these same beliefs or place importance in the same things I do as this would be unrealistic and rather egotistical of me to assume that these things should have the same meaning for everyone.
It does bring a certain feeling of melancholy to me knowing that we seem to be approaching some kind of demise of past ways, which, in turn, makes me cling to my CDs, DVDs and books even more. I'm just thankful I have been afforded the opportunity to have the collection I have and that there are other people in my life who are willing to put up with my madness after all of these years. It can't be easy to live with someone who is obsessed with music 24/7.
You really are a musical soul, John, just like Harry. It's great imo.
I like physical books, that's about it. DVDs and CDs and especially vinyl take up a lot of space that I could be using for books.
Quote from: Henk on May 11, 2025, 03:06:39 AMYou really are a musical soul, John, just like Harry. It's great imo.
Thank you
@Henk. 8) Very nice of you to say, but I think all of us who contribute here on GMG have musical souls. But I won't lie and say that I don't share a certain kinship with
@Harry even though we don't necessarily listen to the same composers. I think he and I have a certain madness for this music that carries over into our posts unknowingly. :)
Quote from: Der lächelnde Schatten on May 11, 2025, 06:55:14 AMThank you @Henk. 8) Very nice of you to say, but I think all of us who contribute here on GMG have musical souls. But I won't lie and say that I don't share a certain kinship with @Harry even though we don't necessarily listen to the same composers. I think he and I have a certain madness for this music that carries over into our posts unknowingly. :)
I can't listen to music all day, never did that. Not really a musical soul. Sometimes I think however my soul is like sound and being noble makes it music, that's my craziness and pretty delusional and conceited, but I can't really get it out of mind. The thought is nice imo. 🤣
Quote from: Karl Henning on May 09, 2025, 04:58:57 PMNor me!
(...not wanting to be at the mercy of streaming services.) Especially true of movies/TV. Probably the chief consideration for me here is the supplements readily available on the physical discs: the commentary and soundtrack-only option on the Twilight Zone and Outer Limits, e.g. Notable this week, especially, various supplements to
Brazil and the Final Cut edition of
Blade Runner. My enjoyment of these is not a great distance from my fondness of
Tolkien's appendices to
LotR.
Quote from: Karl Henning on May 11, 2025, 09:33:54 AM(...not wanting to be at the mercy of streaming services.) Especially true of movies/TV. Probably the chief consideration for me here is the supplements readily available on the physical discs: the commentary and soundtrack-only option on the Twilight Zone and Outer Limits, e.g. Notable this week, especially, various supplements to Brazil and the Final Cut edition of Blade Runner. My enjoyment of these is not a great distance from my fondness of Tolkien's appendices to LotR.
You've just mentioned 2 of my top five favourite films!! (If only you'd added All that Jazz too.....)
Quote from: LKB on May 09, 2025, 12:14:31 AMUntil recently l was a subscriber to Amazon's Prime Music. This was partly out of curiosity, and partly out of the desire for access to recordings which I'm either a) unfamiliar with or b) own, but the CD is in commercial storage.
Last week l went to the site, selected von Karajan's commercial DG recording of Bruckner's Symphony No. 5, and started the opening movement.
The sound quality was so bad ( even with these old ears ) that l abandoned the experience after less than sixty seconds of listening.
Once again, access to physical media proves unreplacable.
I'm tempted to point out that Amazon music streaming uses MP3 compression and that the CD experience is only duplicated by streaming services that support lossless transfer (Apple Music, Qobuz, others I assume). But normally MP3 compression produces a very subtle loss of fidelity. I'm sure correctly mastered MP3 files are perfectly adequate to reproduce slightly disappointing 70's DG audio (although I remember the Bruckner 5 as being one of the better sounding recordings of the era). What you are describing sounds like a gross error, such as faulty MP3 compression, storage of the data on a defective device, a failing data link between their server and your gadget, etc.
Physical media is not immune to such problems. I'm trying to find a replacement for a disc of Maconchy string quartets where audio on one track contains a halo of static. One disc of my Ireland Piano Music set of Lyrita is plagued by obvious static and distortion. I replaced it with lossless downloads. I once purchased a lossless download of Zoltan Kocsis playing Debussy which had weird distortion. I complained to Presto and they put new files on the server which were corrected. There is no failsafe sound carrier. All are subject to defect, and if anything I've found streaming to be least likely to be problematic (Apple Music).