GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Opera and Vocal => Topic started by: Florestan on March 06, 2025, 01:32:09 PM

Title: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Florestan on March 06, 2025, 01:32:09 PM
My list:

Il matrimonio segreto

Il barbiere di Siviglia

Lucia di Lammermoor

La sonnambula

Carmen


Your turn.
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: hopefullytrusting on March 06, 2025, 01:40:18 PM
Bartok's Bluebeard's Castle (easily, in my opinion, far and away, the goat opera)
Berlioz's Les Troyens
Massenet's Esclarmonde
Mussorgsky's Boris Godunov (original)
Rameau's Les Indes Galantes
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Cato on March 06, 2025, 02:01:26 PM
In alphabetical order by composer:

Busoni: Doctor Faustus

Hindemith: Cardillac

Rimsky-Korsakov: The Invisible City of Kitezh

Schoenberg: Moses und Aron

Richard Strauss: Elektra

* Honorable mention: Schoenberg: Erwartung (which he called a Monodrama, so maybe...not an opera?)

Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: hopefullytrusting on March 06, 2025, 02:18:11 PM
Quote from: Cato on March 06, 2025, 02:01:26 PMSchoenberg: Moses und Aron

Oh, this one completely slipped my mind. So good. :)
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: San Antone on March 06, 2025, 04:57:01 PM
Verdi Rigoletto
Puccini La bohémé
Debussy Pelléas et Mélisande
Monteverdi L'Orfeo / Purcell Dido and Aeneas (tie)
Verdi La traviata
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Kalevala on March 07, 2025, 02:22:50 AM
Verdi Don Carlo
Puccini La Bohème
Donizetti Lucia di Lammermoor
Verdi Aida
R. Strauss Der Rosenkavalier

K.
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Lisztianwagner on March 07, 2025, 02:41:14 AM
Wagner Tristan und Isolde
Beethoven Fidelio
Berg Wozzeck
Zemlinsky Der Zwerg
Janáček Jenufa
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Christo on March 07, 2025, 02:52:58 AM
Janáček, Jenufa
Respighi, La Fiamma
Berg, Wozzeck
Barber, Vanessa
Vaughan Williams, The Pilgrim's Progress
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: JBS on March 07, 2025, 03:30:23 AM
Bellini Norma
Britten Peter Grimes
Handel Ariodante
Puccini La Fanciulla del West
Verdi Falstaff
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Kalevala on March 07, 2025, 03:46:15 AM
Quote from: San Antone on March 06, 2025, 04:57:01 PMVerdi Rigoletto
Puccini La bohémé
Debussy Pelléas et Mélisande
Monteverdi L'Orfeo / Purcell Dido and Aeneas (tie)
Verdi La traviata

I like how you skirted the "five".  ;)  ;D

K
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: San Antone on March 07, 2025, 03:54:07 AM
Quote from: Kalevala on March 07, 2025, 03:46:15 AMI like how you skirted the "five".  ;)  ;D

K

Yeah, I couldn't decide which one I wanted to include - so I just put them both in, but as one line.   :D
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Kalevala on March 07, 2025, 04:01:26 AM
Quote from: San Antone on March 07, 2025, 03:54:07 AMYeah, I couldn't decide which one I wanted to include - so I just put them both in, but as one line.   :D
:laugh:

K
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Tsaraslondon on March 07, 2025, 04:25:14 AM
Five perfect operas are not necessarily the same thing as my five favourites. To say they are perfect is to say that you couldn't cut a note, so, though Les Troyens and Norma, for instance, are amongst my favourites, they don't fulfil the criteria of "perfect", as they don't suffer if there are a few judicious cuts.

So five perfect operas, that I think couldn't survive any cuts are.

Tchaikovsky: Eugene Onegin
Verdi: Otello
Verdi: Falstaff
Debussy: Pelléas et Mélisande
Bartók: Duke Bluebeard's Castle
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: LKB on March 07, 2025, 07:06:09 AM
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on March 07, 2025, 04:25:14 AMFive perfect operas are not necessarily the same thing as my five favourites. To say they are perfect is to say that you couldn't cut a note, so, though Les Troyens and Norma, for instance, are amongst my favourites, they don't fulfil the criteria of "perfect", as they don't suffer if there are a few judicious cuts.

So five perfect operas, that I think couldn't survive any cuts are.

Tchaikovsky: Eugene Onegin
Verdi: Otello
Verdi: Falstaff
Debussy: Pelléas et Mélisande/b]
Bartók: Duke Bluebeard's Castle



Hmm...

( Eye's Otello narrowly and reaches for his cleaver. )
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: nico1616 on March 07, 2025, 12:42:36 PM
Puccini: Il Trittico
Verdi: Aida
Offenbach: Les Contes d'Hoffmann
Purcell: Dido and Aeneas
Händel: Giulio Cesare
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Mandryka on March 07, 2025, 01:15:22 PM
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on March 07, 2025, 04:25:14 AMFive perfect operas are not necessarily the same thing as my five favourites. To say they are perfect is to say that you couldn't cut a note, so, though Les Troyens and Norma, for instance, are amongst my favourites, they don't fulfil the criteria of "perfect", as they don't suffer if there are a few judicious cuts.

So five perfect operas, that I think couldn't survive any cuts are.

Tchaikovsky: Eugene Onegin
Verdi: Otello
Verdi: Falstaff
Debussy: Pelléas et Mélisande
Bartók: Duke Bluebeard's Castle


It's quite a high standard. I would cut either the willow song or the ave maria from Otello, and possibly Iago's creed. And I'd cut the scene with the doctor from Pelleas.

Siegfried is pretty perfect I think. And Elektra. And Boris. And Wozzek. And maybe Peter Grimes (though maybe not - I think I'd cut "From the gutter" just before the hut scene. )
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Karl Henning on March 07, 2025, 01:56:29 PM
Bartók: Duke Bluebeard's Castle
Berg: Wozzeck
Shostakovich: Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk
Shostakovich: The Nose
Stravinsky: Mavra
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Karl Henning on March 07, 2025, 01:58:23 PM
Quote from: Karl Henning on March 07, 2025, 01:56:29 PMBartók: Duke Bluebeard's Castle
Berg: Wozzeck
Shostakovich: Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk
Shostakovich: The Nose
Stravinsky: Mavra
Not really happy at having omitted Ravel, but there you are.
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Tsaraslondon on March 07, 2025, 02:08:25 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 07, 2025, 01:15:22 PMIt's quite a high standard. I would cut either the willow song or the ave maria from Otello, and possibly Iago's creed. And I'd cut the scene with the doctor from Pelleas.

Sacrilege!

Quote from: Mandryka on March 07, 2025, 01:15:22 PMSiegfried is pretty perfect I think. And Elektra. And Boris. And Wozzek. And maybe Peter Grimes (though maybe not - I think I'd cut "From the gutter" just before the hut scene. )

I always think I'd cut most of Siegfried. And which version of Boris are you thinking of?

Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: JBS on March 07, 2025, 06:12:41 PM
Quote from: LKB on March 07, 2025, 07:06:09 AMHmm...

( Eye's Otello narrowly and reaches for his cleaver. )

Don't forget that Otello itself is in a sense already "cut"; Shakespeare's Act I is represented by some flashbacks (most importantly, the love duet that closes Verdi's Act I) but the opera actually starts at the point where Shakespeare's Act II begins.
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on March 07, 2025, 08:53:26 PM
Falstaff
Die Meistersinger
Wozzeck
L'Enfant et les Sortilèges
Gianni Schicchi
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Mandryka on March 08, 2025, 12:25:12 AM
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on March 07, 2025, 02:08:25 PMI always think I'd cut most of Siegfried.



Sacrilege!


Quote from: Tsaraslondon on March 07, 2025, 02:08:25 PMAnd which version of Boris are you thinking of?



The one that Covent Garden did with the Tarkovsky production.
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Christo on March 08, 2025, 12:47:21 AM
Quote from: Karl Henning on March 07, 2025, 01:56:29 PMBerg: Wozzeck
I would probably never have known it, if I hadn't see it performed in Milan, La Scala, during a Journalism conference there in 2015. Flabbergasted.
See this review: https://bachtrack.com/review-wozzeck-metzmacher-volle-la-scala-november-2015
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Karl Henning on March 08, 2025, 05:38:34 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 08, 2025, 12:47:21 AMI would probably never have known it, if I hadn't see it performed in Milan, La Scala, during a Journalism conference there in 2015. Flabbergasted.
See this review: https://bachtrack.com/review-wozzeck-metzmacher-volle-la-scala-november-2015
Superb!
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Kalevala on March 08, 2025, 06:01:19 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 07, 2025, 01:15:22 PMIt's quite a high standard. I would cut either the willow song or the ave maria from Otello, and possibly Iago's creed.
Can someone please bring the smelling salts to me?

K
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Iota on March 23, 2025, 03:59:18 AM
Britten     The Turn of the Screw
                  Peter Grimes
Bartok       Duke Bluebeard's Castle
Debussy     Pelleas et Melisande
Ravel         L'enfant et les sortilèges 


Of those perhaps The Turn of the Screw and L'enfant et les sortilèges would qualify as the most 'perfect', or perfectly sculpted perhaps. Every single bar seems  integral to the overall expressive effect. Coincidentally they both share a strong phantasmagoric element, though of very different natures.

Quote from: Mandryka on March 07, 2025, 01:15:22 PM.. Siegfried is pretty perfect I think ... And maybe Peter Grimes (though maybe not - I think cut "From the gutter" just before the hut scene. )

I know we are all different, but to wish to cut one of the most beautiful passages in all 20th century opera, especially from someone who is sympathetic to the opera, does flabbergast me somewhat.
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Mandryka on March 23, 2025, 04:06:52 AM
Quote from: Iota on March 23, 2025, 03:59:18 AMBritten     The Turn of the Screw
                  Peter Grimes
Bartok       Duke Bluebeard's Castle
Debussy     Pelleas et Melisande
Ravel         L'enfant et les sortilèges 


Of those perhaps The Turn of the Screw and L'enfant et les sortilèges would qualify as the most 'perfect', or perfectly sculpted perhaps. Every single bar seems  integral to the overall expressive effect. Coincidentally they both share a strong phantasmagoric element, though of very different natures.

I know we are all different, but to wish to cut one of the most beautiful passages in all 20th century opera, especially from someone who is sympathetic to the opera, does flabbergast me somewhat.

Very pleased to flabber your gast.
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Iota on March 23, 2025, 04:07:58 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 23, 2025, 04:06:52 AMVery pleased to flabber your gast.

And I certainly don't mind having it flabbered.
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Mandryka on March 23, 2025, 04:13:05 AM
Quote from: Iota on March 23, 2025, 04:07:58 AMAnd I certainly don't mind having it flabbered.

All the Danes and Dutch and Ukrainians and Romanians and Greeks and Germans will be wondering what on earth we're talking about. Lexicons will be being searched.

By the way, I was amused to find that the word "flabbergastation" exists


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flabbergastation#:~:text=(colloquial)%20Bewildered%20shock%20or%20surprise,act%20of%20confounding%20or%20bewildering.
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Karl Henning on March 23, 2025, 04:18:36 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 23, 2025, 04:13:05 AMAll the Danes and Dutch and Ukrainians and Romanians and Greeks and Germans will be wondering what on earth we're talking about. Lexicons will be being searched.

By the way, I was amused to find that the word "flabbergastation" exists


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flabbergastation#:~:text=(colloquial)%20Bewildered%20shock%20or%20surprise,act%20of%20confounding%20or%20bewildering.
Not Flabbergastenance?!
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Louis on April 14, 2025, 05:49:39 AM
-Tristan und Isolde
-Parsifal
-Götterdämmerung
-Poppea (Monteverdi)
-Genoveva (Schumann)
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: steve ridgway on April 14, 2025, 06:05:13 AM
Quote from: Louis on April 14, 2025, 05:49:39 AMGötterdämmerung

Sounds promising; I'm only part way through my first listen of Das Rheingold at present 8) .
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Cato on April 14, 2025, 06:14:11 AM
Quote from: Cato on March 06, 2025, 02:01:26 PMIn alphabetical order by composer:

Busoni: Doctor Faustus

Hindemith: Cardillac

Rimsky-Korsakov: The Invisible City of Kitezh

Schoenberg: Moses und Aron

Richard Strauss: Elektra

* Honorable mention: Schoenberg: Erwartung (which he called a Monodrama, so maybe...not an opera?)




I do not believe I would change anything, although...Wagner's Tristan und Isolde + Taneyev's Oresteia should also be given honorable mentions!   ;D
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: springrite on July 17, 2025, 11:07:31 AM
Berg: Wozzeck
Strauss: Salome
Verdi: La Traviata
Beethoven: Fidelio
B.A. Zimmermann: Die Soldaten
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Kalevala on July 17, 2025, 11:30:59 AM
Quote from: springrite on July 17, 2025, 11:07:31 AMBerg: Wozzeck
Strauss: Salome
Verdi: La Traviata
Beethoven: Fidelio
B.A. Zimmermann: Die Soldaten
Love an LP that I have of Ljuba Welitsch (final scene) in Salome.  Do you have any favorite recordings (either complete or excerpts) of it?

K
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: springrite on July 17, 2025, 12:10:00 PM
Quote from: Kalevala on July 17, 2025, 11:30:59 AMLove an LP that I have of Ljuba Welitsch (final scene) in Salome.  Do you have any favorite recordings (either complete or excerpts) of it?

K
Oh, that recording is classic!
But if you can get the video of the opera with Teresa Stratas, it's incredible, especially the final scene!
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Kalevala on July 17, 2025, 12:23:43 PM
Quote from: springrite on July 17, 2025, 12:10:00 PMOh, that recording is classic!
But if you can get the video of the opera with Teresa Stratas, it's incredible, especially the final scene!
I'll do some googling...thanks!  :)

K
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Kalevala on July 17, 2025, 12:33:37 PM
Quote from: springrite on July 17, 2025, 12:10:00 PMOh, that recording is classic!
But if you can get the video of the opera with Teresa Stratas, it's incredible, especially the final scene!
Who else is involved with the video?  On youtube, I see some excerpts with her and Karl Böhm...is that the one?  If so (or not), who else is singing/conducting/orchestra?  And where was it performed?

Ever the one who is curious,

K
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: springrite on July 17, 2025, 12:43:03 PM
Yes, it's the one with Bohm, Weikl, Varney, Beirer, Vienna Philharmonic, directed by Gotz Friedrich.
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Kalevala on July 17, 2025, 01:28:30 PM
Quote from: springrite on July 17, 2025, 12:43:03 PMYes, it's the one with Bohm, Weikl, Varney, Beirer, Vienna Philharmonic, directed by Gotz Friedrich.
Thanks!  I'll dig further.

K
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: JBS on July 17, 2025, 07:20:05 PM
Quote from: Kalevala on July 17, 2025, 11:30:59 AMLove an LP that I have of Ljuba Welitsch (final scene) in Salome.  Do you have any favorite recordings (either complete or excerpts) of it?

K

I have her doing it as part of a Fritz Reiner set(Sony/Columbia)--
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/A1b5q3wYH9L._AC_SX296_SY426_FMwebp_QL65_.jpg)
but she also recorded it for EMI with Von Matacic.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51wRnBugGzL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)
While looking for the image, I came across what must be one of the weirdest double bills in opera
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41t6uwrEylL._AC_SX272_SY392_FMwebp_QL65_.jpg)
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Mandryka on July 18, 2025, 01:09:14 AM
Quote from: Kalevala on July 17, 2025, 01:28:30 PMThanks!  I'll dig further.

K

Have you heard Schoenberg's Erwartung? It's very much in that expressionist Strauss mould I think.
Title: Re: Five Perfect Operas (Mozart excluded)
Post by: Kalevala on July 18, 2025, 05:18:33 AM
Quote from: JBS on July 17, 2025, 07:20:05 PMI have her doing it as part of a Fritz Reiner set(Sony/Columbia)--
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/A1b5q3wYH9L._AC_SX296_SY426_FMwebp_QL65_.jpg)
but she also recorded it for EMI with Von Matacic.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51wRnBugGzL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)
While looking for the image, I came across what must be one of the weirdest double bills in opera
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41t6uwrEylL._AC_SX272_SY392_FMwebp_QL65_.jpg)
I have both of her recordings of it on LP (Thanks to a very kind friend of mine  ;)  ).

And, yes, that is a bizarre pairing!

Quote from: Mandryka on July 18, 2025, 01:09:14 AMHave you heard Schoenberg's Erwartung? It's very much in that expressionist Strauss mould I think.
No, I haven't heard that one.  I'll make a mental note to check it out though....thanks!

K