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The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => The Polling Station => Topic started by: coffee on March 30, 2025, 01:26:08 AM

Title: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: coffee on March 30, 2025, 01:26:08 AM
Alright! Welcome to the first thread of this project at GMG! In this case, we'll be doing the 136th tier because it has too many works and it's an easy one for us to get started on.

Anyone who wants to participate can select up to five works from the 136 tier to promote. If a work is chosen by two participants, we'll move it up two tiers, and so on up to four participants and four tiers.

I'll leave this open for at least seven days from the timestamp of this post. (If you are in the western hemisphere you might want to take note that the date in the title of the thread is Korea time!) If I'm late to close it, feel free to participate.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Here are the eligible works for this thread:


 
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: coffee on March 30, 2025, 01:29:45 AM
Here is my contribution:

Berio: Sequenza XIII for accordion [1995]
Ligeti: Artikulation [1958]
Schreker: Der Schatzgräber [1920]
Tan: Water Passion after Saint Matthew [2000]
Vivanco: Missa in Manus tuas [1608]
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: Selig on March 30, 2025, 06:25:09 AM
Barrett, R.: life-form [2012]
Messiaen: Petites esquisses d'oiseaux [1985]
Purcell: Twelve Sonatas of Three Parts [c. 1680]
Reincken: An Wasserflüssen Babylon [1663]
Scelsi: String Quartet #3 [1963]

"Norgärd" could be corrected to Nørgård (Danish doesn't use ä!)
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: coffee on March 30, 2025, 09:49:10 AM
Quote from: Selig on March 30, 2025, 06:25:09 AMBarrett, R.: life-form [2012]
Messiaen: Petites esquisses d'oiseaux [1985]
Purcell: Twelve Sonatas of Three Parts [c. 1680]
Reincken: An Wasserflüssen Babylon [1663]
Scelsi: String Quartet #3 [1963]

"Norgärd" could be corrected to Nørgård (Danish doesn't use ä!)



Nicely done! Thank you.
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: foxandpeng on March 31, 2025, 03:34:49 PM
I respectfully predict that this thread will sink faster than the proverbial lead balloon. Please forgive me if I sound unkind.

Perhaps engaging with the various discussions and sharing your listening journey might be more fruitful?
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: brewski on March 31, 2025, 04:26:02 PM
I confess I have no clue what the purpose of this thread is. But I'm slightly curious to find out what you have in mind. From the list, I chose five works new to me that I'd like to get to know.

Abrahamsen: Left, Alone (Piano Concerto) [2016]
Bacewicz: Musić for Strings, Trumpets and Percussion [1958]
Grisey: L'Icône paradoxale [1992-1994]
Nørgård: Turn [1973]
Schreker: Der Schatzgräber [1920]

Good luck!
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: Symphonic Addict on March 31, 2025, 04:37:31 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on March 31, 2025, 03:34:49 PMI respectfully predict that this thread will sink faster than the proverbial lead balloon. Please forgive me if I sound unkind.

Perhaps engaging with the various discussions and sharing your listening journey might be more fruitful?

This sort of threads is quite popular on the another forum, but here... not sure.  :-X
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: coffee on March 31, 2025, 07:32:40 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on March 31, 2025, 03:34:49 PMI respectfully predict that this thread will sink faster than the proverbial lead balloon. Please forgive me if I sound unkind.

Perhaps engaging with the various discussions and sharing your listening journey might be more fruitful?

Doing well enough so far anyway. Feel free to recommend any five of those works that you think someone might particularly enjoy or learn something from.

My own personal listening "journey" should matter to one more than it does to me, and it doesn't matter that much to me. I'm literally nobody. When I die, not one iota of unique insight into music will perish with me. You obviously know many, many, many things that I don't. This is one way you could share that knowledge with people like me. You are free not to do it of course, but it's an option.

Anyway, no matter what, your unkindness has not hurt me - I long ago learned to find these things amusing - so you need no forgiveness unless from yourself. Take her easy, bro. Live and let live.

Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: coffee on March 31, 2025, 07:33:18 PM
Quote from: brewski on March 31, 2025, 04:26:02 PMI confess I have no clue what the purpose of this thread is. But I'm slightly curious to find out what you have in mind. From the list, I chose five works new to me that I'd like to get to know.

Abrahamsen: Left, Alone (Piano Concerto) [2016]
Bacewicz: Musić for Strings, Trumpets and Percussion [1958]
Grisey: L'Icône paradoxale [1992-1994]
Nørgård: Turn [1973]
Schreker: Der Schatzgräber [1920]

Good luck!

Thank you! Perfectly done!

Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: steve ridgway on March 31, 2025, 11:14:25 PM
I know far too few of these to take part in the popularity contest  :'( .
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: coffee on March 31, 2025, 11:15:53 PM
Quote from: steve ridgway on March 31, 2025, 11:14:25 PMI know far too few of these to take part in the popularity contest  :'( .

True for almost everyone, definitely including me. But if you like any of them (up to five), feel free to let me know!
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: DaveF on March 31, 2025, 11:42:23 PM
Can I be picky and mention that Harry Birtwistle's piece is called "Five Distances"? Happy to promote it, though.
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: coffee on April 01, 2025, 12:23:57 AM
Quote from: DaveF on March 31, 2025, 11:42:23 PMCan I be picky and mention that Harry Birtwistle's piece is called "Five Distances"? Happy to promote it, though.

You can be very picky! I really appreciate you for letting me know.
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: Madiel on April 01, 2025, 05:21:38 AM
Quote from: foxandpeng on March 31, 2025, 03:34:49 PMI respectfully predict that this thread will sink faster than the proverbial lead balloon. Please forgive me if I sound unkind.

Perhaps engaging with the various discussions and sharing your listening journey might be more fruitful?

Similar observations have been made to this exact same person a number of times over the years. We get another attempt every 3 to 5 years or so, and every time other forum members end up asking what the purpose is, or when it will end.

The list is not as long this time as some others, but it's full of obscurities and I see the claim that there will be at least another 135 tiers after this (EDIT: Which will take about 2.5 years), and I completely lose interest. The scope is (as on every occasion) simply too broad. Trying to compare works from completely different genres written several centuries apart is going to be fruitless.

To be frank I find it a little unfortunate that coffee doesn't seem to have learned anything at all about poll design, and/or that doing THIS kind of poll on GMG simply doesn't work despite it apparently working on some other forum. I listen to a podcast about business where trying to sell the same product to the same audience that didn't like it the first time would be seen as a strategy for failure. You have to learn what your market wants. GMG has indicated repeatedly that it doesn't want this.
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: Madiel on April 01, 2025, 05:47:44 AM
ADDENDUM: Frankly, the most egregious problem of all is that none of us have any clue how the tiers are generated. To pick music on the current list that I actually know, I've precisely no idea why these particular 4 Haydn symphonies ended up at level 136 or where all the other Haydn symphonies might turn up.

Which very much gives the feeling that this is a game set up by someone else for their amusement, and I'm expected to behave not as a fellow player, but as a piece on the board.

Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: coffee on April 01, 2025, 06:05:44 AM
Quote from: Madiel on April 01, 2025, 05:21:38 AMSimilar observations have been made to this exact same person a number of times over the years. We get another attempt every 3 to 5 years or so, and every time other forum members end up asking what the purpose is, or when it will end.

The list is not as long this time as some others, but it's full of obscurities and I see the claim that there will be at least another 135 tiers after this (EDIT: Which will take about 2.5 years), and I completely lose interest. The scope is (as on every occasion) simply too broad. Trying to compare works from completely different genres written several centuries apart is going to be fruitless.

To be frank I find it a little unfortunate that coffee doesn't seem to have learned anything at all about poll design, and/or that doing THIS kind of poll on GMG simply doesn't work despite it apparently working on some other forum. I listen to a podcast about business where trying to sell the same product to the same audience that didn't like it the first time would be seen as a strategy for failure. You have to learn what your market wants. GMG has indicated repeatedly that it doesn't want this.

Of course it's not actually a poll. Maybe that doesn't matter though.

I'm not sure what you mean by GMG not wanting this. Last time I asked, Someone in authority told me that I was free to do it. And you're free not to participate. I hope the mere existence of the thread doesn't offend you too much.
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: coffee on April 01, 2025, 06:17:28 AM
Quote from: Madiel on April 01, 2025, 05:47:44 AMADDENDUM: Frankly, the most egregious problem of all is that none of us have any clue how the tiers are generated. To pick music on the current list that I actually know, I've precisely no idea why these particular 4 Haydn symphonies ended up at level 136 or where all the other Haydn symphonies might turn up.

Which very much gives the feeling that this is a game set up by someone else for their amusement, and I'm expected to behave not as a fellow player, but as a piece on the board.

My apologies! I should have posted a link to this thread (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,34112.0.html) in the OP of this thread. I hope that would make everything as clear as it can be. However, I'll try to clear up the specific issues you raised here.

The tiers have been generated over the past 15 years by quite a few different participants.

You can find the other Haydn symphonies on the list of recommended works (https://docs.google.com/document/d/18t_9MHZTENbmYdezAAj4LRM0-Eak_MYO1HssZW2FX1U/edit?usp=sharing). If you want to find something specific, you can use a search function. If you have further questions or any kind of problems finding what you want, let me know.

This is very much for amusement. I'm not inclined to take it very seriously. It's just a way of helping me (and anyone else who cares to use it) discover new music or prioritize our listening. If you don't find it amusing or interesting or anything like that, please ignore it. But most of all, please don't take it too seriously! Especially if its existence angers you!

I'm not sure what you mean about being "a piece on the board" but I don't track people's selections over time. Each new thread is a tabula rasa, and that is intentional because one of my goals is to enable all of the participants to modify their choices over time. That is, maybe today you choose X over Y but later for some reason you prefer Y. Nothing wrong with that, as far as I'm concerned. Also, I won't know you did it unless you tell me. I hope this reassures you. If not, I'm happy to try to clarify anything that bothers you.


Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: Madiel on April 01, 2025, 06:19:44 AM
You know exactly what I mean by GMG not wanting this: every time you start, it quickly dies. In the marketplace of ideas it doesn't survive.

And then you leave. And then eventually you come back and basically do the same thing while expecting a different result.

I said nothing about it not being permitted. What "offends" me is not so much the existence of a thread but the existence of MULTIPLE threads, because it shows that you completely refuse to take on board any of the meaningful critiques you've been given over the years. You don't want to make this something that GMG likes, you just expect GMG to finally give in to your idea.

Sometimes you proudly announce no other project like this exists. Now, one possible reason no other project like this exists is because you're a genius. But not for the first time, I submit that the more likely reason is that everyone else who considers a project like this sees the flaws that you simply refuse to see, and makes the adjustments you refuse to make.

So to the extent I'm "offended", it's frustration that you have absolutely no respect for your audience. Us. The people who keep telling you not only that this doesn't work, but sometimes try to explain why. I'm not going to spend further time now going in to the flaws because I'm pretty sure I discussed them on at least one of the previous occasions. I like lists. I make a lot of lists in classical music. This is not a good or useful list.
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: Madiel on April 01, 2025, 06:21:59 AM
Quote from: coffee on April 01, 2025, 06:17:28 AMMy apologies! I should have posted a link to this thread (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,34112.0.html) in the OP of this thread. I hope that would make everything as clear as it can be. However, I'll try to clear up the specific issues you raised here.

The tiers have been generated over the past 15 years by quite a few different participants.

You can find the other Haydn symphonies on the list of recommended works (https://docs.google.com/document/d/18t_9MHZTENbmYdezAAj4LRM0-Eak_MYO1HssZW2FX1U/edit?usp=sharing). If you want to find something specific, you can use a search function. If you have further questions or any kind of problems finding what you want, let me know.

This is very much for amusement. I'm not inclined to take it very seriously. It's just a way of helping me (and anyone else who cares to use it) discover new music or prioritize our listening. If you don't find it amusing or interesting or anything like that, please ignore it. But most of all, please don't take it too seriously! Especially if its existence angers you!

I'm not sure what you mean about being "a piece on the board" but I don't track people's selections over time. Each new thread is a tabula rasa.  I hope that reassures you. If not, I'm happy to try to clarify anything that bothers you.




You have contradicted yourself here. You cannot both state that the tiers have been generated by previous participants and that you don't track selections over time. This is not a blank slate. This is you trying to get a new bunch of people to contribute to your existing data set.

Because apparently 15 years worth of data hasn't been enough for you to figure out... what? What you "should" listen to or enjoy?

I agree it's for amusement. My point was that it appears to be for YOUR amusement. And my purpose for being here is not to amuse you.

Over and out.
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: coffee on April 01, 2025, 06:43:56 AM
Quote from: Madiel on April 01, 2025, 06:21:59 AMYou have contradicted yourself here. You cannot both state that the tiers have been generated by previous participants and that you don't track selections over time. This is not a blank slate. This is you trying to get a new bunch of people to contribute to your existing data set.

Because apparently 15 years worth of data hasn't been enough for you to figure out... what? What you "should" listen to or enjoy?

I agree it's for amusement. My point was that it appears to be for YOUR amusement. And my purpose for being here is not to amuse you.

Over and out.

I meant that I don't track individuals. Of course I track the results.

Anyway, I think I understand you. If no one participates I'll go away again for a time. But since participants and boards change, if that happens I might be back again in a year or so. No matter what, take it easy. I  mean no disrespect to you.

 
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: DavidW on April 01, 2025, 08:43:30 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on March 31, 2025, 04:37:31 PMThis sort of threads is quite popular on the another forum, but here... not sure.  :-X

Ha! Yes, I was just wondering if Bulldog has rejoined us! :laugh:
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: DavidW on April 01, 2025, 08:49:08 AM
Aho: Symphony #4 [1973]
Haydn: Symphony #61 in D [1776]
Mozart: Serenade #7 in D "Haffner," K. 250 [1776]
Mozart: Violin Sonata #26 in B-flat, K 378 [1791]
Simpson: Clarinet Quintet [1968]
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: coffee on April 01, 2025, 12:44:36 PM
Quote from: DavidW on April 01, 2025, 08:49:08 AMAho: Symphony #4 [1973]
Haydn: Symphony #61 in D [1776]
Mozart: Serenade #7 in D "Haffner," K. 250 [1776]
Mozart: Violin Sonata #26 in B-flat, K 378 [1791]
Simpson: Clarinet Quintet [1968]

Thank you!
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: steve ridgway on April 03, 2025, 07:40:50 PM
OK, so of the 9 of these works in my collection I am happy to recommend

Birtwistle: Five Distances [1992]
Messiaen: Petites esquisses d'oiseaux [1985]
Penderecki: Trumpet Concertino [2015]
Scelsi: String Quartet #3 [1963]
Stockhausen: In Freundschaft [1977]
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: coffee on April 04, 2025, 03:29:43 AM
Quote from: steve ridgway on April 03, 2025, 07:40:50 PMOK, so of the 9 of these works in my collection I am happy to recommend

Birtwistle: Five Distances [1992]
Messiaen: Petites esquisses d'oiseaux [1985]
Penderecki: Trumpet Concertino [2015]
Scelsi: String Quartet #3 [1963]
Stockhausen: In Freundschaft [1977]

Much appreciated!
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: steve ridgway on April 04, 2025, 05:07:23 AM
Quote from: coffee on April 04, 2025, 03:29:43 AMMuch appreciated!

It was interesting to have a few pieces in my collection selected for me and to compare them against each other, will continue with the next round 8) .
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: coffee on April 05, 2025, 10:53:00 AM
One more day to go!
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: steve ridgway on April 05, 2025, 10:37:03 PM
Five or six participants is pretty good really. How many contribute on TC?
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: coffee on April 06, 2025, 04:00:40 AM
Quote from: steve ridgway on April 05, 2025, 10:37:03 PMFive or six participants is pretty good really. How many contribute on TC?

It depends. This is a really, really deep tier so I wouldn't expect many. On the higher tiers with the more popular works it gets up to ten or twelve sometimes.
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: coffee on April 06, 2025, 12:37:28 PM
Alright, I'll wrap this up and start another thread. Here are the works we chose to recommend a bit more strongly: 

Up 2 tiers:
Messiaen: Petites esquisses d'oiseaux [1985]
Scelsi: String Quartet #3 [1963]
Schreker: Der Schatzgräber [1920]

Up 1 tier:
Abrahamsen: Left, Alone (Piano Concerto) [2016]
Aho: Symphony #4 [1973]
Bacewicz: Musić for Strings, Trumpets and Percussion [1958]
Barrett, R.: life-form [2012]
Berio: Sequenza XIII for accordion [1995]
Birtwistle: Five Distances [1992]
Grisey: L'Icône paradoxale [1992-1994]
Haydn: Symphony #61 in D [1776]
Ligeti: Artikulation [1958]
Mozart: Serenade #7 in D "Haffner," K. 250 [1776]
Mozart: Violin Sonata #26 in B-flat, K 378 [1791]
Nørgård: Turn [1973]
Penderecki: Trumpet Concertino [2015]
Purcell: Twelve Sonatas of Three Parts [c. 1680]
Reincken: An Wasserflüssen Babylon [1663]
Simpson: Clarinet Quintet [1968]
Stockhausen: In Freundschaft [1977]
Tan: Water Passion after Saint Matthew [2000]
Vivanco: Missa in Manus tuas [1608]
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: foxandpeng on April 06, 2025, 01:22:13 PM
Thank you for highlighting works that are not obvious choices. I still find the reason for this kind of post somewhat perplexing, as it seems to me to hold little rigour, but any desire to promote good music is positive,  I guess.
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: hopefullytrusting on April 06, 2025, 09:43:11 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on April 06, 2025, 01:22:13 PMThank you for highlighting works that are not obvious choices. I still find the reason for this kind of post somewhat perplexing, as it seems to me to hold little rigour, but any desire to promote good music is positive,  I guess.

If not for this thread, I doubt I would have heard of many of these pieces.

That's where I find the value.

I'm always on the prowl for music that I've not heard. :)
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: steve ridgway on April 06, 2025, 09:44:13 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on April 06, 2025, 01:22:13 PMThank you for highlighting works that are not obvious choices. I still find the reason for this kind of post somewhat perplexing, as it seems to me to hold little rigour, but any desire to promote good music is positive,  I guess.

I think having a smaller number of contributors, but with keen and varied interests, may produce a more useful resource for exploration than something like the Classic FM polls.
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: Crudblud on April 08, 2025, 03:29:59 AM
A late arrival here. Since the OP is gone, does anyone know or could hazard a guess as to how this seemingly random list was determined to contain only works of the 136th tier, whatever that is?
Title: Re: the 136th tier (2025/4) - to April 7
Post by: Selig on April 08, 2025, 03:57:13 AM
Quote from: Crudblud on April 08, 2025, 03:29:59 AMA late arrival here. Since the OP is gone, does anyone know or could hazard a guess as to how this seemingly random list was determined to contain only works of the 136th tier, whatever that is?

No need to guess, it was already explained by the OP here: https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,34112.0.html

Basically: anyone can nominate works, and new works will start at the lowest tier before climbing.
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