I'm off to see Turandot (http://www.nzopera.com/productions/2007/turandot.cfm) this Thursday night.
I'm learning it via this recording:
(http://www.classical.net.cn/imagedir/06000/058890115221269.jpg)
I also have the Met production to watch on Wednesday night:
(http://www.rentertainment.com/images/opera/turandot.jpg)
I'm certainly enjoying it thus far.
Any comments or things to look out for will be apreciated :)
You have a very lavish performance in that Met DVD. Enjoy! Watch out for oriental music in the opera. I find it especially noticeable in the 3 men who sing together in the middle of the opera for 10 - 15 minutes. They are on stage alone. Maybe someone else can give you better help in locating the right spot for the oriental music. Once you recognize it, you'll then find it everywhere in the opera.
Quote from: Anne on September 16, 2007, 06:24:44 PM
You have a very lavish performance in that Met DVD. Enjoy! Watch out for oriental music in the opera. I find it especially noticeable in the 3 men who sing together in the middle of the opera for 10 - 15 minutes. They are on stage alone. Maybe someone else can give you better help in locating the right spot for the oriental music. Once you recognize it, you'll then find it everywhere in the opera.
Hi Anne:
Yes, I've noticed several traditional oriental themes themes in the music. Apparently Puccini discovered one of them from an old musical box he found!
Looking forward to the DVD as this is quite an elaborate opera to stage due to the fact that the entire chorus are on stage for much of the opera.
Pavarotti is wonderful as Calaf on the recording I have; an instantly recognizable voice with magnificent extension. :)
Some videos can help:
Calaf, Liu and Timur (Non piangere Liu, Timur's Ah! per l'ultima volta - The three masks - Calaf strikes the gong): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YcqdOdUQsPs&mode=related&search=
Turandot : Nilsson (with Corelli) http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=OWle3od3BCc and with Cecchele http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n_vc_txniDM&mode=related&search=
The Riddle Scene (Nilsson and Cecchele, in two parts) http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvsl3zxQWiU&mode=related&search= and http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iuYvRrtllxw&mode=related&search=
Death of Liu (in concert - Caballé): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iuYvRrtllxw&mode=related&search=
Final Scene (Cecchele and Nilsson): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iuYvRrtllxw&mode=related&search=
I have the same recording. Think I need to get it out and listen again as it's been awhile. Enjoy the performance and let us know if you liked it.
I've been interested in trying this opera for a long time, but for some reason kept putting it off. A question - is it common for recordings to use the post-mortem completion of the ending by one of his students? Also, is there just the one version of that, or has it been completed differently since (I think that there is some controversy over the way it was composed)? I wouldn't want to sit through it only to find that the recording ended at where Puccini left it on his death, as I heard at least one conductor does. I'll assume that the Met DVD is the most well-produced and go for that one?
It's similar for Berg's Lulu - unfinished is just frustrating :-X
Quote from: Lethe on September 17, 2007, 06:18:31 AM
I've been interested in trying this opera for a long time, but for some reason kept putting it off. A question - is it common for recordings to use the post-mortem completion of the ending by one of his students? Also, is there just the one version of that, or has it been completed differently since (I think that there is some controversy over the way it was composed)? I wouldn't want to sit through it only to find that the recording ended at where Puccini left it on his death, as I heard at least one conductor does. I'll assume that the Met DVD is the most well-produced and go for that one?
It's similar for Berg's Lulu - unfinished is just frustrating :-X
All recordings, as far as I know, use the Alfano ending. However you might be interested to know that this ending was also heavily cut by Toscanini. Alfano's original, longer and much more taxing ending was unearthed some years ago. I remember going to a concert performance at the Barbican which used the complete version. Sylvia Sass sang Turandot, the best thing I ever heard her do, which isn't to say she was ideal, but it was a lot better than her Norma and Elisabetta in
Don Carlo. I believe Josephine Barstow recorded the complete Alfano ending on a recital disc for Decca, though I doubt it's still available. I don't think there are any complete recordings available using this longer ending, though.
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on September 17, 2007, 08:16:23 AM
All recordings, as far as I know, use the Alfano ending. However you might be interested to know that this ending was also heavily cut by Toscanini. Alfano's original, longer and much more taxing ending was unearthed some years ago. I remember going to a concert performance at the Barbican which used the complete version. Sylvia Sass sang Turandot, the best thing I ever heard her do, which isn't to say she was ideal, but it was a lot better than her Norma and Elisabetta in Don Carlo. I believe Josephine Barstow recorded the complete Alfano ending on a recital disc for Decca, though I doubt it's still available. I don't think there are any complete recordings available using this longer ending, though.
Thank you very much :) I'll proceed without caution, if it's very rare for it to be recorded in the unfinished state.
Quote from: Lethe on September 17, 2007, 08:22:00 AM
Thank you very much :) I'll proceed without caution, if it's very rare for it to be recorded in the unfinished state.
I'm pretty sure that, apart from the very first performance, when Toscanini stopped the performance and turned to the audience, saying "This is where the maestro lay down his pen.", all staged performances also use the Alfano completion.
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on September 17, 2007, 08:31:18 AM
I'm pretty sure that, apart from the very first performance, when Toscanini stopped the performance and turned to the audience, saying "This is where the maestro lay down his pen.", all staged performances also use the Alfano completion.
That is probably correct. There is also a very different completion by Luciano Berio, but although it's been recorded, it has not supplanted the (cut) Alfano version in popular usage.
As for Lulu, there is absolutely no reason for frustration. Berg completed virtually the entire Third Act in short score, and except for orchestration, Friedrich Cehra had very little actual composition to do when he completed the opera. Various passages had already been orchestrated by Berg as part of the Lulu Suite, and other passages could be taken from earlier acts as they shared parallel material. There's no reason or excuse for any opera house today to mount the two-act version, and the inclusion of the Cerha completion is one reason the Boulez recording is indispensable. (Though it's too bad Boulez had his Countess Geschwitz speak the final "Verdammt!" as in Wedekind; Berg's libretto specifically cuts this out.)
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 17, 2007, 08:39:40 AM
That is probably correct. There is also a very different completion by Luciano Berio, but although it's been recorded, it has not supplanted the (cut) Alfano version in popular usage.
Thanks for reminding me of that. I knew someone well known had also done a completion, but couldn't remember who it was. I'd love to hear it. Have you?
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on September 17, 2007, 08:31:18 AM
I'm pretty sure that, apart from the very first performance, when Toscanini stopped the performance and turned to the audience, saying "This is where the maestro lay down his pen.", all staged performances also use the Alfano completion.
I'm surprised that nobody has felt the need to meddle with it to incorporate more of the original sketches (of which Alfano apparently left quite a lot out), as has happened with Bruckner's symphonies.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 17, 2007, 08:39:40 AM
There's no reason or excuse for any opera house today to mount the two-act version
My main concern when researching a potential DVD purchase, was one of the reviews here (http://www.amazon.com/Berg-Kallisch-Keller-Davislim-Welser-Most/dp/B0001FR0MU) which states that it is the two act version. I guess that this is a rarity?
Oh, and thank you :) I have no manners :P
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on September 17, 2007, 08:31:18 AM
I'm pretty sure that, apart from the very first performance, when Toscanini stopped the performance and turned to the audience, saying "This is where the maestro lay down his pen.", all staged performances also use the Alfano completion.
Not quite all. In the March 2005 issue of
Opera News, there's a review of a perfomance of the opera in Dresden:
QuoteDirector Andreas Homoki and conductor Fabio Luisi did not trust either ending. They decided the performance would stop where Puccini had stopped composing — after Liù's death. This turned out to be a splendid idea (in fact the evening's only one), for it cut short one of the most superficial, ridiculous and annoying productions in this reviewer's memory.
I've heard of a couple of other production's doing this, but it's certainly not standard. As far as I know, all available recordings do use the Alfano ending (though some cut Turandot's aria "Del primo pianto").
There is a DVD that uses the Berio ending. From the Salzburg Festival, with Gergiev conducting, with Gabriele Schnaut, Paata Burchuladze, Johan Botha, Cristina Gallardo Domas. I haven't heard or seen it. The review's I've read haven't been kind, but I think that's mostly because of Schnaut.
Quote from: Lethe on September 17, 2007, 08:49:35 AM
My main concern when researching a potential DVD purchase, was one of the reviews here (http://www.amazon.com/Berg-Kallisch-Keller-Davislim-Welser-Most/dp/B0001FR0MU) which states that it is the two act version [of Lulu]. I guess that this is a rarity?
Unfortunately, not as rare as it should be. According to the Universal Edition website, there have been performances of the two-act version at the Theater am Bismarckplatz, Regensburg (2007), the Teatro de la Maestranza, Sevilla (2006), and (for shame!) Berg's home-town company, the Wiener Staatsoper (2005). 2005 also saw two-act
Lulu's in Seville, Athens, Hamburg, and Tokyo.
The Glyndebourne DVD is really good, and is the three-act version.
Quote from: Wendell_E on September 17, 2007, 10:40:07 AM
Unfortunately, not as rare as it should be. According to the Universal Edition website, there have been performances of the two-act version at the Theater am Bismarckplatz, Regensburg (2007), the Teatro de la Maestranza, Sevilla (2006), and (for shame!) Berg's home-town company, the Wiener Staatsoper (2005). 2005 also saw two-act Lulu's in Seville, Athens, Hamburg, and Tokyo.
The Glyndebourne DVD is really good, and is the three-act version.
The Schafer/Glyndebourne is certainly the most highly rated one, thank you for the confirmation on the number of acts. The label doesn't produce booklets for their DVDs, I think - their Makropulos Affair and Salome that I have didn't come with any, but I guess that is a minor quibble.
Quote from: Lethe on September 17, 2007, 10:45:45 AM
The Schafer/Glyndebourne is certainly the most highly rated one, thank you for the confirmation on the number of acts. The label doesn't produce booklets for their DVDs, I think - their Makropulos Affair and Salome that I have didn't come with any, but I guess that is a minor quibble.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure all they have is a single sheet with the track listing.
Re Turandot, I believe the Berio ending is the one that Barstow recorded. I have never heard it, but the usual ending is certainly unsatisfactory up against Puccini's stated intent to produce something wonderfully new. What we get seems strident and simplistic.
Mike
Quote from: knight on September 18, 2007, 02:47:07 AM
Re Turandot, I believe the Berio ending is the one that Barstow recorded.
Nope. I've got that recording. It says "First recording of complete Alfano ending". It was recorded in 1989, more than a decade before the Berio version was premiered.
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 16, 2007, 06:40:53 PM
Some videos can help:
Calaf, Liu and Timur (Non piangere Liu, Timur's Ah! per l'ultima volta - The three masks - Calaf strikes the gong): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YcqdOdUQsPs&mode=related&search=
Turandot : Nilsson (with Corelli) http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=OWle3od3BCc and with Cecchele http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n_vc_txniDM&mode=related&search=
The Riddle Scene (Nilsson and Cecchele, in two parts) http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvsl3zxQWiU&mode=related&search= and http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iuYvRrtllxw&mode=related&search=
Death of Liu (in concert - Caballé): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iuYvRrtllxw&mode=related&search=
Final Scene (Cecchele and Nilsson): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iuYvRrtllxw&mode=related&search=
Lilas,
Thank you for all those video exerpts. I can get no music out of my computer. Son will fix it soon, I hope. In the meantime I have bookmarked the selections to watch later.
Quote from: Wendell_E on September 18, 2007, 03:01:19 AM
Nope. I've got that recording. It says "First recording of complete Alfano ending". It was recorded in 1989, more than a decade before the Berio version was premiered.
The Berio has been used in performance a few times and is recorded on a Decca CD called Puccini Discoveries, conducted by Chailly. It is very different from the Alfano, much more introspective, and although derived in part from Puccini's sketches, it is harmonically daring to the point of not always fitting in well with Puccini's own style.
Get the Naxos Historical cds with Olivero, Cigna and Merli conducted by Ghione. Here you have the Fonit Cetra release of the whole work in low quality mp3 (courtesy of some korean webpage).
http://www.goclassic.co.kr/mp3/Turandot_ACTI.mp3
http://www.goclassic.co.kr/mp3/Turandot_ACTII.mp3
http://www.goclassic.co.kr/mp3/Turandot_ACTIII.mp3
The excessive vibrato of Magda Olivero is fantastic and Francesco Merli is second to nobody
Quote from: Anne on September 16, 2007, 06:24:44 PM
You have a very lavish performance in that Met DVD. Enjoy! Watch out for oriental music in the opera. I find it especially noticeable in the 3 men who sing together in the middle of the opera for 10 - 15 minutes. They are on stage alone. Maybe someone else can give you better help in locating the right spot for the oriental music. Once you recognize it, you'll then find it everywhere in the opera.
I don't have a score of
Turandot so can only say offhand from what I hear. There seems to be more than a little influence from Debussy in his use of whole tone scales, not necessarily Oriental, but give an exotic impression as with the French composer. Derived from and related to the whole tone scale, Puccini used the augmented 5th chord in
Butterfly quite a bit, even thematically. This is somewhat different from the pentatonic scale on the black keys of the piano, also used by him to sound Oriental in both operas. When Butterfly is making inventory of her things to Pinkerton, "Sakura" a popular Japanese song, is quoted in the orchestra. A nice touch is the descending tritone E-D-Bb, from koto music, transposed to different keys and sprinkled liberally throughout.
Sorry if this is too technical but I couldn't explain it any other way.
ZB
Quote from: Manuel on September 18, 2007, 07:24:37 AM
The excessive vibrato of Magda Olivero is fantastic and Francesco Merli is second to nobody
I'm a Magda Olivero fan but this recording allegedly from 1938 would not be a good record of hers for posterity. She had a great voice and range of expression but maybe took a long time in getting it together. There was a long gap in her career as well. The vibrato to my ears is irritating.
ZB
I'm sitting here listening to Alfano's ending. Puccini, it ain't--too ponderous. He was a much cleverer orchestrator and used his own musical material in more than just 4 part harmony. Also the tenor in the outset sounded like he was singing Wagner. Nice try, though.
ZB
Quote from: Wendell_E on September 18, 2007, 03:01:19 AM
Nope. I've got that recording. It says "First recording of complete Alfano ending". It was recorded in 1989, more than a decade before the Berio version was premiered.
Thanks for that.
Mike
Quote from: Manuel on September 18, 2007, 07:24:37 AM
Get the Naxos Historical cds with Olivero, Cigna and Merli conducted by Ghione. Here you have the Fonit Cetra release of the whole work in low quality mp3 (courtesy of some korean webpage).
http://www.goclassic.co.kr/mp3/Turandot_ACTI.mp3
http://www.goclassic.co.kr/mp3/Turandot_ACTII.mp3
http://www.goclassic.co.kr/mp3/Turandot_ACTIII.mp3
The excessive vibrato of Magda Olivero is fantastic and Francesco Merli is second to nobody
it should be noted that Olivero sings Liu, NOT the title role. The Ice Princess is sung by the french soprano, Gina Cigna.
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 18, 2007, 02:01:38 PM
it should be noted that Olivero sings Liu, NOT the title role. The Ice Princess is sung by the french soprano, Gina Cigna.
Does anyone actually give attention to Turandot when listening to this opera? Liu hijacks the whole drama.
::)
Yeah, the style of the writing after Lui's death is quite noticeably different. Not for the worse, just different. Using the main theme from Nessum Dorma for the grand finale was a good idea. I wonder how detailed Puccini's 'sketches' for the remainder of the opera were... ???
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on September 16, 2007, 06:38:24 PM
Yes, I've noticed several traditional oriental themes themes in the music. Apparently Puccini discovered one of them from an old musical box he found!
I recall reading somewhere--and I could be totally mistaken about this, so if I'm wrong I'll apologize in advance--that when this opera was premiered in China, audiences were both amused and bewildered by Puccini's grandiose treatment of Chinese folk themes, at least one of which was very well known. To Chinese audiences at the time, Puccini's bombastic orchestration of simple folk tunes seemed unwieldy and absurd; I'd be interested to know more if there's any truth to this.
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on September 18, 2007, 06:48:47 PM
Yeah, the style of the writing after Lui's death is quite noticeably different. Not for the worse, just different. Using the main theme from Nessum Dorma for the grand finale was a good idea. I wonder how detailed Puccini's 'sketches' for the remainder of the opera were... ???
According to Charles Osborne in
The Complete Operas of Puccini, Puccini's sketches total about 36 pages. Some of the music that has been criticised is actually found in the sketches, as for instance the opening bars of the duet. Turandot's aria exists only in fragments, but Alfano does incorporate into it several phrases Puccini intended. The 12 bar passage at the conclusion of the aria from Calaf's
Il mio mistero? to Turnadot's
so il tuo nome also exists in Puccini's sketches.
Lulu is a superb opera. I recommend the Glyndebourne production on DVD- truly excellent in every sense.
The Met Turandot is another very good DVD. I do like Marton though and i enjoy Mitchell as Liu. Domingo as Calaf looks and sounds good although there is that odd event at the end of Nessun Dorma where he cracked on the high note and it was later redone and it looks very odd.
On disc i very much like the Karajan cd with Domingo also in. Gorgeous sound and a nice version all round.
I do have the Schnaut/Botha DVD from Salzburg. An interesting production but non of the principles are at their best and Gergeiv drives the orchestra too hard in my opinion.
Quote from: yashin on September 19, 2007, 05:23:47 AM
On disc i very much like the Karajan cd with Domingo also in. Gorgeous sound and a nice version all round.
But how can you possibly like Ricciarelli's strained and over parted Turandot? This is definitely an example of Karajan's risky casting policy not paying off.
(http://www.rentertainment.com/images/opera/turandot.jpg)
Watched this last night.
It was excellent; Domingo and Martin were both wonderful. The sets and costumes were sumptuous. The Ping, Pang & Pong bits were a bit tiring [I didn't find them annoying on audio disc] but this very minor quibble aside I enjoyed the spectacle immensely.
Opera is an art form that needs to be seen as well as heard! :)
Note: Off to the live performance tonight :D
I can understand the Liu vs Turandot conundrum. Liu is doomed from the start because she is so submissive (as Micaëla is in Carmen). One roots for her - as certainly Puccini did. He may have found it very difficult to follow Liu's death with anything emotionally significant. One realizes that throughout his carreer, he had success with - and sympathy for - the dying soprano. Turandot is very much the exception here, but one has to believe that Puccini wanted love AND life to triumph. He was himself going to die, in the final stages of his throat cancer. The only time he didn't make his soprano die is in Fanciulla and Gianni Schicchi. Maybe not coincidentally, Minnie is one of his most difficult roles to portray. It might have been more congenial dramatically to have her shot at the hands of Jack Rance, dying in the arms of the tenor. But it didn't fit the optimistic myth of the hero(es) riding away in the western sunset glow.
While on the subject, put your seatbelt on first:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=82fCDGmDm7s&mode=related&search=
"Anna Shafajinskaia...won the Pavarotti International Voice Competition. A year later she was chosen by Pavarotti to sing Tosca opposite him."
...no mean competition...that is, in volume...she seems very exciting...any comments?
ZB
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on September 20, 2007, 12:24:59 AM
While on the subject, put your seatbelt on first:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=82fCDGmDm7s&mode=related&search=
"Anna Shafajinskaia...won the Pavarotti International Voice Competition. A year later she was chosen by Pavarotti to sing Tosca opposite him."
...no mean competition...that is, in volume...she seems very exciting...any comments?
ZB
I saw her sing the role in New Orleans, and she was wonderful. Unfortunately, her eye makeup reminded me of Divine's in
Pink Flamingos, and her acting after Calaf kisses her reminded me of
Polyester, when Tab Hunter kisses Divine.
Unfortunately the Calaf and Liu (Eduardo Villa and Sally Dibblee), weren't anywhere near Shafayinskaya's "divine" level.
i too saw Anna Shafajinskaia -but in Birmingham, UK. She was superb. Although it was some years ago.
I do like Ricciarelli's interpretation. I find her much more satisfying than say Sutherland or Caballe in the same role. I admire Nilsson but am not a huge fan of her steely voice. I much prefer Borkh on the Decca set with Del Monaco. Although my choice for Calaf would have to be Bjoerling or Corelli. Domingo and the late Pavarotti are non-starters in comparison!
Best of all on the Karajan set is the gorgeous Liu of Barbara Hendricks- am not sure i have heard anyone sing so sweetly in the role. My heart stops when she and Turandot confront one another before she stabs herself.
One good recommendation is the Chandos version in English with Jane Eaglen as Turandot. Is a very nice version beautifully recorded. One of the best in the series.
The Karajan version has many virtues and it should definitely be heard. It's too heavy most of the time though. The whole affair is crushing and overpowering rather than kaleidoscopic and brilliantly colourful.
Turandot is a work that operates on many musical and dramatic levels. It's far more sophisticated than Tosca. There's comedy, drama, supernatural happenings, evocation of legends, a living god, commedia dell'arte characters mingling with axe-wielding executioners and sex-craved foreign prince, the works.
This Shafajinskaia video is impressive in parts, but she sings flat a lot of the time. The voice is huge, but she has trouble lifting it up and she sings under the note. I don't know if that's why she moves and sings so slowly, but this Ice Princess fails to light up my fire.
Quote from: yashin on September 20, 2007, 05:07:09 AM
I do like Ricciarelli's interpretation. I find her much more satisfying than say Sutherland or Caballe in the same role. I admire Nilsson but am not a huge fan of her steely voice. I much prefer Borkh on the Decca set with Del Monaco. Although my choice for Calaf would have to be Bjoerling or Corelli. Domingo and the late Pavarotti are non-starters in comparison!
Best of all on the Karajan set is the gorgeous Liu of Barbara Hendricks- am not sure i have heard anyone sing so sweetly in the role. My heart stops when she and Turandot confront one another before she stabs herself.
Well I suppose we all hear voices differently. I feel the same as you about Nilsson, but at no point could prefer Ricciarelli's Turandot to those of Sutherland and Caballe, though I admit that Caballe's commercial recording is nowhere near as good as the live one from San Francisco. Sutherland, of course, never sang the role on stage, and I have to say that when it was announced that she would record it, I thought it a piece of casting every bit as risky as that of Ricciarelli. In fact a good few people thought that the announcement was wrong and that Caballe would be singing Turandot to Sutherland's Liu. I am not a huge Sutherland fan, but this is one case where a risky but of casting paid off superbly and, to my ears, she is the most all round satisfying Turandot on record, if not as psychologically probing as Callas, who, unfortunately, recorded it too late in her career.
On the other hand, I do agree that Hendricks's Liu is lovely. I actually heard her do the role in concert at the Barbican, when Sass sang the full Alfano ending of the score. I have a feeling Bonisolli was Calaf. Whoever it was, there is no doubt Hendricks stole the show. She was superb and won the longest ovation of the night.
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 20, 2007, 06:45:37 AM
This Shafajinskaia video is impressive in parts, but she sings flat a lot of the time. The voice is huge, but she has trouble lifting it up and she sings under the note. I don't know if that's why she moves and sings so slowly, but this Ice Princess fails to light up my fire.
While listening, I had in the back of my mind that this kind of production ends frequently in early burnout and flatness is one of the signs. I never understood some dramatic sopranos in my circle of acquaintance, why they felt the need to overproject what was already BIG. Nilsson knew what she was doing. She didn't strain; there was no need, anyway.
ZB
Attended Turandot on Thursday night; needless to say it was fantastic!
It was great to see a contemporary production after having watched the Mets DVD version the previous night as it made the Mets version look positively old-fashioned!
Actually its a great way to approach these operas; see the traditional approach, then a modern updating. Its amazing how the same story and music can be presented in a completely different way; both excellent!
Heres (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?c_id=264&objectid=10465168) todays review in our local newspaper :)
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on September 21, 2007, 02:03:08 PM
Actually its a great way to approach these operas; see the traditinal approach, then a modern updating. Its amazing how the same story and music can be presented in a completely different way; both excellent!
Yep, updated productions are great and prevent boredom in the long-run, but they are quite bad to watch as a first time, as stage directions or even the setting become confusing, and sometimes it's hard to know what the hell is going on. It's why I find it sad to sometimes find no decent "traditional" production available for an opera I am interested in, so I have to jump into the deep end, so to speak...
The first time I saw Turandot was in a production in which Calaf was really Puccini and dressed as such. Liu was his maid and Turandot existed physically in a different space. They never so much as looked at each other and the whole thing took place in Puccini's head. I knew the opera perfectly well and just found it all alienating and damaging to the drama; but if it had been my first encounter with the work, I would have been clueless as to what was going on.
Mike
Quote from: knight on September 21, 2007, 10:59:40 PM
The first time I saw Turandot was in a production in which Calaf was really Puccini and dressed as such. Liu was his maid and Turandot existed physically in a different space. They never so much as looked at each other and the whole thing took place in Puccini's head. I knew the opera perfectly well and just found it all alienating and damaging to the drama; but if it had been my first encounter with the work, I would have been clueless as to what was going on.
Mike
But then that would appear to be to be a bad production, as it didn't tell the story clearly. Updated productions, as such, need not be a barrier to first time appreciation. Both Jonathan Miller's gangster
Rigoletto and Baz Luhrmann's 50s
La Boheme were popular with young, first time audiences, and , though the unusual setting might have had something to do with this, they both also scored by clearly telling the story.
Oh, I am not agaimst modern productions, I probably prefer them as it then avoids the moving-museum concept. One favourite is the Glyndbourne Theodora. That Miller Rigoletto was also a complete success.
Mike
Dimitrova and Martinucci were a great couple...i wish they would publish this recording from Arena di Verona some day.
Alas, Sutherland is stupendous, Pavarotti and Caballe too, but the person I like there is Mehta! Nilsson and Corelli are already classics. ;D Though I like Marton-Carreras too.
And that black-and-white film with Udovich, Corelli and Mattioli? She's probably the Liu's I've ever heard and seen.
And, as in my opinion, Turandot, even with its unfinished finale, is still the most exciting opera...it's may be the top of all opera...of course I just think so, but it's a genial masterpiece, the music makes me tremble and awe.
How about Eva Turner ,I enjoy her Turandot.Her voice is as powerful as Nilsson and as glorious as Sutherland.
No doubt you are right about Turner, I find her a tricky one in that when I was much younger she would be interviewed on a reasonably regular basis and all we ever got was the my life as Turandot blah.
I brought myself up on the Callas recording which made Turner seem bland, though in truth her's is the voice more suited to the part.
Welcome Sarastro, I can see you are into vocal music and singers....we need more such people round here.
Mike
I've heard that Tebaldi had sung the role Turandot in her career.Yesterday,I saw a album of Tebaldi which has the aria "In questa reggia".A customer said that Sutherland enjoys this aria very much,and she was strongly influenced .Do you agree?
Quote from: wagnernn on December 22, 2007, 04:20:54 PM
Do you agree?
No...I also heard "In questa reggia" by Tebaldi...of course Tebaldi is Tebaldi, beautiful, but there melancholic, sad, and...it's more like Ricciarelli. Not hers, imho.
Neither Tebaldi nor Sutherland sang the role on stage. Tebaldi only sang Liu's part on discs (she wouldn't settle for seconda donna status on stage) and In questa reggia is the only Turandot to be heard from her.
What do you thinK about the C3 in the aria "In questa reggia"
For me:
Nilsson :10 points
Callas,Eva Turner,Sutherland:9 points
Caballe,Borkh:8 points
I've not listened to the one by Tebaldi yet,so please vote for it!
There are umpteen In questa reggias from Nilsson (2 commercial sets and many, many recitals or broadcasts). The are also quite a few Callas ones: 2 studio discs of the aria alone, a few early recitals and the complete opera. In her case, the EMI disc of the aria is much better than the complete performance.
It's probably my favourite of them all.
With Nilsson, there's couple of youtubes that are better than both complete studio performances. One is a sizzling production with Corelli abetting her note for note in the aria and the ensuing riddle scene. So hot and supercharged that it's the equivalent of musical hyperventilating.
I don't think the others are on their level. But really, you should forget about this rate-that-note game. It doesn't begin to do justice to any of those great singers. FWIW the most staggering high C I've heard in this aria comes from a relatively unknown hungarian soprano. Good as she is vocally, hers is a cold and marmoreal interpretation. No fever, no hate, no trance-like transport in the Ice Princess' dynastic memories. Just a generalized haughtiness. With Nilsson and Callas you hear a fully developed character.
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 23, 2007, 03:55:41 PM
I don't think the others are on their level. But really, you should forget about this rate-that-note game. It doesn't begin to do justice to any of those great singers. FWIW the most staggering high C I've heard in this aria comes from a relatively unknown hungarian soprano. Good as she is vocally, hers is a cold and marmoreal interpretation. No fever, no hate, no trance-like transport in the Ice Princess' dynastic memories. Just a generalized haughtiness. With Nilsson and Callas you hear a fully developed character.
Just as an aside, I was surprised, the first time I heard the Turner recording, to find that she does what many do when they get to the phrase with that top C. she just eliminates the words and sings a sort of vocalise. As her diction is usually pretty impeccable, you do notice it. On the other hand, Callas, even in the complete studio performance, when she no longer has the ease on top, sings the words exactly as written; typical of her not to try and make things easier for herself.
Just saw this on a Met DVD yesterday. This must be the worst opera in the repertoire. In virtually every parameter it is terrible:
Characterisation - completely one dimentional, and almost as bad worse, all are inhumanly unlikeable (except perhaps for Liu). Puccini doesn't even begin to explore what emotions these people might be feeling in the potentially interesting (if always ludicrous) situations that arise. The father is pointless - he adds nothing whatsoever to the story. The Calaf is sickened by the death of Liu, yet still demands to be kissed virtually in the same breath. Liu's sacrifice is completely gratuitous and doesn't change any of the characters in any way. There's no apparent reason for Turandot's sudden transformation... presumably its the physical urge that he's awaken in her? This would all be sikck if it wasn't so unbelievably shallow and stupid.
Dramatically: Alternately so risible and so awful that's it's difficult for me to know what people are getting out of this. The opening of act 2 - completely pointless, adds nothing to the rest of the opera. Liu's death, again nothing (it's the best bit of the whole thing admittedly because its damn pretty). The whole opening choral episode also.
Musically: The bargain basement orientalism is without exception vulgar, crudely done, completely unatmospheric. It's in such bad taste that one begins to feel uncomfortable - almost that Puccini is making some kind of racial statement here. The actual themes themselves are almost without exception shockingly trite, floating above harmony so sweet and clichéed and often plain bad that its a miracle he sort of gets away with it by dressing it up with his orchestration (which is impressive for the first five minutes and then one is overcome with the cloying banality of it all). But all of them are flayed mercilessly for all they're worth, repeated over and over again so that they lose their initial appeal, even when they are good tunes (Nessun Dorma and Liu's two arias) - the death scene iof Liu particularly, just keeps repeating the same few maudlin chords again and again with dimishing returns on their emotional impact. And Nessun Dorma in the context of the rest of the scene is fairly sick.
With most music and opera that I dislike, it's a matter of indifference but very few works actually conjure disgust in me on every level. I'm really surprised at my own response! It's a really visceral dislike! Almost moral!
I can't believe that anyone would find this to be a moving or convincing piece of theatre. The only reason I can think of for it's popularity are those three arias. People please enlighten me!
What I kept thinking was - the singers - what are they getting out of this? Domingo's acting was fairly bad (how could it not be - there's nothing to work with), but for someone who champions Verdi's Simon Boccanegra, what is going through his mind when he's doing this? When he's being all sad and disgusted by the cruelty and pointlessness of Liu's death, and then instantly pressing the princess to kiss him?
In short: It's difficult for me to imagine someone being able to apprecciate say, the Marschallin's monalogue, Simon Boccanegra, Otello, any of Janacek's operas, Figaro, any Wagner and also appreciate this. I'm amazed that people take it seriously! Or if they don't take it seriously, that they actually want to see it at all!
As with so much Puccini, it can be seen as a queasy exploitative exercise in manipulation of the audience. Two of the worst productions I have seen of anything have been of this opera.
It is a cruel fairy tale and can be viewed as such. After all, that is very much a recognised world tradition. No one in it is really believeable. The music I enjoy a great deal, though of course the end is a real letdown. It seemingly holds echos from Puccini's autobiography. But for me that does not add to its interest. It is a great choral opera with a lot for them to do and I do think the music for Ping, Pang and Pong to be amongst his very best.
I can understand the distaste, but if you can distance yourself from it and see it as more of a two dimensional folk tale, you may be less harsh on it.
Mike
Quote from: knight on January 04, 2011, 12:11:08 PM
As with so much Puccini, it can be seen as a queasy exploitative exercise in manipulation of the audience. Two of the worst productions I have seen of anything have been of this opera.
It is a cruel fairy tale and can be viewed as such. After all, that is very much a recognised world tradition. No one in it is really believeable. The music I enjoy a great deal, though of course the end is a real letdown. It seemingly holds echos from Puccini's autobiography. But for me that does not add to its interest. It is a great choral opera with a lot for them to do and I do think the music for Ping, Pang and Pong to be amongst his very best.
I can understand the distaste, but if you can distance yourself from it and see it as more of a two dimensional folk tale, you may be less harsh on it.
Mike
It's not the story itself which is iniquitous - it's Puccini's treatment of it! The story is scary and horrid of course, but then so are the stories of Bluebeard and Billy Budd... but the treatment of them by their respective composers actually explore the themes that may arise from such a horrible dramatic situation.
Quote from: knight on January 04, 2011, 12:11:08 PM
As with so much Puccini, it can be seen as a queasy exploitative exercise in manipulation of the audience. Two of the worst productions I have seen of anything have been of this opera...It is a cruel fairy tale and can be viewed as such. After all, that is very much a recognised world tradition. No one in it is really believeable. The music I enjoy a great deal, though of course the end is a real letdown.
The music at the end that Puccini was not able to finish is a horrendous cut and paste. There's actually no reason why it should be kept. Maybe a better Sussmeyer (as in the case of Mozart) can come along and do a better job. As is, it makes the opera even more schlocky.
ZB
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on January 06, 2011, 12:18:10 AM
The music at the end that Puccini was not able to finish is a horrendous cut and paste. There's actually no reason why it should be kept. Maybe a better Sussmeyer (as in the case of Mozart) can come along and do a better job. As is, it makes the opera even more schlocky.
ZB
Berio did an alternative ending, though it's rarely performed. Here is a clip from it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFJAESAgq-s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFJAESAgq-s)
Doesn't sound much like Puccini to me.
Quote from: Guido on January 04, 2011, 09:25:13 AM
Just saw this on a Met DVD yesterday. This must be the worst opera in the repertoire. In virtually every parameter it is terrible:
Characterisation - completely one dimentional, and almost as bad worse, all are inhumanly unlikeable (except perhaps for Liu). Puccini doesn't even begin to explore what emotions these people might be feeling in the potentially interesting (if always ludicrous) situations that arise. The father is pointless - he adds nothing whatsoever to the story. The Calaf is sickened by the death of Liu, yet still demands to be kissed virtually in the same breath. Liu's sacrifice is completely gratuitous and doesn't change any of the characters in any way. There's no apparent reason for Turandot's sudden transformation... presumably its the physical urge that he's awaken in her? This would all be sikck if it wasn't so unbelievably shallow and stupid.
Dramatically: Alternately so risible and so awful that's it's difficult for me to know what people are getting out of this. The opening of act 2 - completely pointless, adds nothing to the rest of the opera. Liu's death, again nothing (it's the best bit of the whole thing admittedly because its damn pretty). The whole opening choral episode also.
Musically: The bargain basement orientalism is without exception vulgar, crudely done, completely unatmospheric. It's in such bad taste that one begins to feel uncomfortable - almost that Puccini is making some kind of racial statement here. The actual themes themselves are almost without exception shockingly trite, floating above harmony so sweet and clichéed and often plain bad that its a miracle he sort of gets away with it by dressing it up with his orchestration (which is impressive for the first five minutes and then one is overcome with the cloying banality of it all). But all of them are flayed mercilessly for all they're worth, repeated over and over again so that they lose their initial appeal, even when they are good tunes (Nessun Dorma and Liu's two arias) - the death scene iof Liu particularly, just keeps repeating the same few maudlin chords again and again with dimishing returns on their emotional impact. And Nessun Dorma in the context of the rest of the scene is fairly sick.
With most music and opera that I dislike, it's a matter of indifference but very few works actually conjure disgust in me on every level. I'm really surprised at my own response! It's a really visceral dislike! Almost moral!
I can't believe that anyone would find this to be a moving or convincing piece of theatre. The only reason I can think of for it's popularity are those three arias. People please enlighten me!
What I kept thinking was - the singers - what are they getting out of this? Domingo's acting was fairly bad (how could it not be - there's nothing to work with), but for someone who champions Verdi's Simon Boccanegra, what is going through his mind when he's doing this? When he's being all sad and disgusted by the cruelty and pointlessness of Liu's death, and then instantly pressing the princess to kiss him?
I have held off answering this for a few days as I have not really had the free time to do so, but now found a few moments. You are right in some of your assessments. The story does not always flow and this is highlighted most by the ending. Puccini himself was having difficulties resolving the story. So even had he lived, I suspect it would be flawed from that point of view. So the rapid shift from Liu's death to vcitory and love do seem a bit out of place and Liu's sacrifice wasted.
But there is, in my opinion, a lot to love - Liu and Calaf offset the Princess' evils/coldness (with some wonderful pieces). The music itself, well it can be vulgar and a spectacle. But it is supposed to be that way. The musical world of the princess is different from the rest. Perhaps this link will help you: http://archive.operainfo.org/intermissions/intermissionFeaturesDetails.cgi?id=27&language=1&month=01&year=2005&int_page_id=237 (http://archive.operainfo.org/intermissions/intermissionFeaturesDetails.cgi?id=27&language=1&month=01&year=2005&int_page_id=237). You may notice that some of the repitition is on purpose, although I never really felt it overwhelmed the opera as you do.
In the end, this may just not be an opera for you. I find it a lot easier to suspend my disbelief on this one than with a lot of 'better' operas (and I mean dramatically better): whether we are talking Turn of the Screw, Salome, or others. One simply needs to accept the storyline in order to enjoy some operas.
Salome and Turn of the Screw are at least internally consistant stories (if you accept the conceit, then they make sense), whereas Turandot constantly thwarts logical story telling and reasonable character development/actions. Obviously if you don't buy the conceit, then I agree they aren't convincing, but then that is true of all mystical/mythical fiction.
Puccini agreed on the libretto remember before he dies, so dramatically it's unlikely to have been much different.
I don't think the Calaf is good. At the moment where the princess is showing her evil hand most clearly in the plot he sings the rapturously erotic Nessun Dorma... and not apparently ignorant of the horrendous destruction that is being wreaked because of him to everyone else. Also he is shallow - he falls in love with a princess just by sight who he knows is despotic, cool, and evil. His callous disregard for Liu's sacrifice (he doesn't seem to "get" it) is almost more disturbing than the Princess's because he's sentimentally attatched to her, has the outburst of disgust (apparently also only sentimental because he...) then instantly forgets. So he's either amoral or a complete fool. The princess doesn't care before or after... we know she's damaged goods and a bitch though so it's not disturbing.
I've been thinking alot about this. I think the only way it could be convincingly done is if the Calaf was mad. Then the weird nonsensicality of the plot could be the machinations of his mind, and the ravishing Nessun Dorma would make sense in the context - he's completely disconnected from reality... Ping, Pang and Pong's (what?! how could they be the names!!! Even in the 1920s that was surely questionable!) eliptical, circular, but oddly irrelevant chiding, and his repetitive reponse could also be figments of his diseased imagination too.
Has this ever been done? I like this idea!
I should be a director!
Quote from: Guido on January 10, 2011, 04:25:00 AM
Salome and Turn of the Screw are at least internally consistant stories (if you accept the conceit, then they make sense), whereas Turandot constantly thwarts logical story telling and reasonable character development/actions. Obviously if you don't buy the conceit, then I agree they aren't convincing, but then that is true of all mystical/mythical fiction.
Puccini agreed on the libretto remember before he dies, so dramatically it's unlikely to have been much different.
I don't think the Calaf is good. At the moment where the princess is showing her evil hand most clearly in the plot he sings the rapturously erotic Nessun Dorma... and not apparently ignorant of the horrendous destruction that is being wreaked because of him to everyone else. Also he is shallow - he falls in love with a princess just by sight who he knows is despotic, cool, and evil. His callous disregard for Liu's sacrifice (he doesn't seem to "get" it) is almost more disturbing than the Princess's because he's sentimentally attatched to her, has the outburst of disgust (apparently also only sentimental because he...) then instantly forgets. So he's either amoral or a complete fool. The princess doesn't care before or after... we know she's damaged goods and a bitch though so it's not disturbing.
I've been thinking alot about this. I think the only way it could be convincingly done is if the Calaf was mad. Then the weird nonsensicality of the plot could be the machinations of his mind, and the ravishing Nessun Dorma would make sense in the context - he's completely disconnected from reality... Ping, Pang and Pong's (what?! how could they be the names!!! Even in the 1920s that was surely questionable!) eliptical, circular, but oddly irrelevant chiding, and his repetitive reponse could also be figments of his diseased imagination too.
Has this ever been done? I like this idea!
I should be a director!
People do unreasonable things. There are all sorts of true stories of people ignoring the bad qualities in others - from emotional or physical absue to total nut jobs (a lover who expects the husband to split from his wife for example) - in order to be with them. So what to you seems illogical could be logical to someone who does not think the way a normal person does. People fall in love with all sorts of people for all the wrong reasons. This to me is actually very believable. Liu is the one he should love (she loves him and protects him), but he does not appreaciate her (and he does not deserve her). This happens all the time in life (though you and I may not know many people like that - just read a few Dear Abby letters). That the princess is ordering all sorts of death or whatever is not really all that important in itself (except to highlight her pride and similar qualities).
Most people are able to focus on the grandness (Prince and Princess, the riddles/test/hunt for the unattainable), the love/sacrifice (based around Liu), or the beautiful music. You are being distracted from those by 'minor' issues like murder, psychotic women, and a general lack of pc. :(
The Chinese agreed with you for a long time, preventing the opera from being shown in China until fairly recently. And I find your idea interesting - perhaps you should be a Director!
Quote from: Guido on January 10, 2011, 04:25:00 AM
Salome and Turn of the Screw are at least internally consistant stories (if you accept the conceit, then they make sense), whereas Turandot constantly thwarts logical story telling and reasonable character development/actions. Obviously if you don't buy the conceit, then I agree they aren't convincing, but then that is true of all mystical/mythical fiction.
Puccini agreed on the libretto remember before he dies, so dramatically it's unlikely to have been much different.
I don't think the Calaf is good. At the moment where the princess is showing her evil hand most clearly in the plot he sings the rapturously erotic Nessun Dorma... and not apparently ignorant of the horrendous destruction that is being wreaked because of him to everyone else. Also he is shallow - he falls in love with a princess just by sight who he knows is despotic, cool, and evil. His callous disregard for Liu's sacrifice (he doesn't seem to "get" it) is almost more disturbing than the Princess's because he's sentimentally attatched to her, has the outburst of disgust (apparently also only sentimental because he...) then instantly forgets. So he's either amoral or a complete fool. The princess doesn't care before or after... we know she's damaged goods and a bitch though so it's not disturbing.
I don't find any of the things you complain of a dramatic problem, and has been written, lots of people, not just people in operas, do self-destructive things for "love." My problem with it is the abrupt change in the Princess. That, in my experience, is the sort of thing that does not happen in real human experience, and I don't think it makes for a convincing opera.
Quote from: ukrneal on January 10, 2011, 06:30:04 AM
Most people are able to focus on the grandness (Prince and Princess, the riddles/test/hunt for the unattainable), the love/sacrifice (based around Liu), or the beautiful music. You are being distracted from those by 'minor' issues like murder, psychotic women, and a general lack of pc. :(
Well, of course, one forgets these things if one loves the music. Unfortunately, as I said above, I really do not - Virtually the whole score is tawdry schlock apart from the few highlights that I picked out which are frabjous schlock! IM
HO of course. ;D
Saw Turandot for the first time in Finnish National Opera yesterday. I loved it (although I had some trouble concentrating when I had a severe anxiety attack) but really... Ping, Pang, Pong? I know this opera was made in 1920s but still not only that's incredibly racist but also I read about composing history of this work and Puccini was very strict with his librettists. They really couldn't come up with better names? Yet, those three are my favorite characters in the opera. Not perhaps the greatest comic relief in operatic history but it worked with me pretty well. Nessun Dorma did not make much of an impression to me, yet of course during the climax the whole opera house exploded in applauds. Melody representing Turandot fascinated me greatly, especially during act III when she makes her entrance. And I'm not sure if it is only because I knew the ending wasn't from Puccini's pen but I found it a bit dull. Overall, however, I enjoyed it very much.
Nah na na nana nana naaaaaa...
Quote from: Alberich on November 23, 2013, 02:24:01 PM
Saw Turandot for the first time in Finnish National Opera yesterday. I loved it (although I had some trouble concentrating when I had a severe anxiety attack) but really... Ping, Pang, Pong? I know this opera was made in 1920s but still not only that's incredibly racist but also I read about composing history of this work and Puccini was very strict with his librettists. They really couldn't come up with better names? Yet, those three are my favorite characters in the opera. Not perhaps the greatest comic relief in operatic history but it worked with me pretty well. Nessun Dorma did not make much of an impression to me, yet of course during the climax the whole opera house exploded in applauds. Melody representing Turandot fascinated me greatly, especially during act III when she makes her entrance. And I'm not sure if it is only because I knew the ending wasn't from Puccini's pen but I found it a bit dull. Overall, however, I enjoyed it very much.
Nah na na nana nana naaaaaa...
Assuming they used the Alfano ending, you're not the first person who has found the ending less than impressive. And it might be heresy to say this, but Nessun Dorma has become so hackneyed that it always fails to impress me when I hear it in the context of Act III.
I think the P-trio names were meant to reflect their origin in commedia d'arte and Goldoni--I'm not familiar with the Goldoni play, so I don't know what sort of naming conventions Goldoni used. And given some of the insulting terms that Chinese (and East Asian immigrants in general) were referred to in 19th and 20th century America, Ping, Pang and Pong are pretty tame. And certainly they're not straight comedy characters--look at how snarling, almost evil, they become in Act III, after treating us to one of the most sympathetic and human moments in the whole opera, the Act II trio.
For me, the crowd scenes of Act I and the riddle scene are the most impressive portions of the opera. I've got several recordings (including the one
sanantonio likes), and enjoy all but one of them (the one with Callas features an Emperor who was so recessed in relation to the other singers that it's almost impossible to hear him), but my favorite remains the recording in which I first heard it on LP because that was back in the 70s--Sutherland/Pavarotti/Mehta.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 23, 2013, 04:02:44 PM
I think the P-trio names were meant to reflect their origin in commedia d'arte and Goldoni--I'm not familiar with the Goldoni play, so I don't know what sort of naming conventions Goldoni used.
Actually, the author of the play was Carlo Gozzi, not Carlo Goldoni. But they do have commedia dell'arte names: Pantalone, Tartaglia, Brigella, and Truffaldino. Schiller also used those names in his version.