Did some composers need an editor? Could they have expressed what they were trying to say with fewer notes? Who was the best self-editor? The worst?
Many Chopin pieces are also wonderfully concise, yet containing so much music.
I always thought that Boulez had many pieces that could be 20% shorter
Almost all Wagner's operas.
Feldman SQ 1
Wagner, all his works need pruning, especially the Soprano/Mezzo parts. ;D
There are a lot of works that are much too long, but a lot aren't great pieces to begin with. (to say the least)
However, one piece which I love quite a bit but find just a little too long-winded is Schoenberg's Verklaerte Nacht. Absolutely beautiful and intense string writing but sometimes I can hear myself muttering "ok Arnold, I get the point, but kindly shut the f*** up." ;D A Little harsh, but the sentiment is always there.
Quote from: Norbeone on September 17, 2007, 10:28:37 AM
There are a lot of works that are much too long, but a lot aren't great pieces to begin with. (to say the least)
However, one piece which I love quite a bit but find just a little too long-winded is Schoenberg's Verklaerte Nacht. Absolutely beautiful and intense string writing but sometimes I can hear myself muttering "ok Arnold, I get the point, but kinda shut the f*** up." ;D A Little harsh, but the sentiment is always there.
Really? I wish it wouldn't end!
For some reason any slow movement from the Baroque period just seems to go on forever.
I've said it before, I'll say it again: Milhaud's 'Le Boeuf Sur Le Toit'. Version I own drags on for an age ... well, 19' 56", to be exact.
CDs were designed so that they could hold the LvB 9th on one disc.
Anything longer is a waste. ;)
Quote from: dtwilbanks on September 17, 2007, 01:42:13 PM
CDs were designed so that they could hold the LvB 9th on one disc.
Anything longer is a waste. ;)
Careful. There be Mahlerites round these parts ...
Quote from: Mark on September 17, 2007, 01:43:42 PM
Careful. There be Mahlerites round these parts ...
Oh, I *know* there are. ;D
Quote from: bwv 1080 on September 17, 2007, 09:08:32 AM
I always thought that Boulez had many pieces that could be 20% shorter
Agreed.
sur Incises,
Derive 2 and
Repons are all too long for their material, IMO. (I think this problem only surfaces in post-1970 Boulez, though.)
I think excessive length is a problem with a lot of new music in general....but that's probably a pre-separating-the-wheat-from-the-chaff thing.
FWIW, I think Mahler is perfectly concise. ;)
Quote from: edward on September 17, 2007, 01:45:53 PM
FWIW, I think Mahler is perfectly concise. ;)
Know that I was kidding, Edward, know that I was kidding. ;D
Quote from: Mark on September 17, 2007, 01:47:15 PM
Know that I was kidding, Edward, know that I was kidding. ;D
Hey, if those Malhlerettes have time enough to sit around for longer than 80 minutes, more power to them. ;)
Quote from: dtwilbanks on September 17, 2007, 01:50:12 PM
Hey, if those Malhlerettes have time enough to sit around for longer than 80 minutes, more power to them. ;)
It's sleep paralysis.
Quote from: Mark on September 17, 2007, 01:43:42 PM
Careful. There be Mahlerites round these parts ...
meow. ;D
Quote from: dtwilbanks on September 17, 2007, 01:50:12 PM
Hey, if those Malhlerettes have time enough to sit around for longer than 80 minutes, more power to them. ;)
I guess you don't watch movies much? ???
Messiaen's works for orchestra, all of them.
Quote from: longears on September 17, 2007, 05:33:17 PM
Whaddya mean, "almost?"
Die Hochzeit is perfectly proportioned...
Quote from: DavidW on September 17, 2007, 05:28:22 PM
I guess you don't watch movies much? ???
Well, if there are pictures... ;D
Quote from: dtwilbanks on September 17, 2007, 05:52:47 PM
Well, if there are pictures... ;D
Alright, you practically admitted it, you love Wagner then. ;D
Quote from: DavidW on September 17, 2007, 06:02:13 PM
Alright, you practically admitted it, you love Wagner then. ;D
:o
Quote from: Corey on September 17, 2007, 05:32:21 PM
Messiaen's works for orchestra, all of them.
Not just orchestra. I'd be far happier if the Vingt Regards were reduced to Douze, or better yet Deux.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 17, 2007, 08:16:46 PM
Tell me exactly what you'd cut.
Well the Norns at the beginning of
Gotterdammerung for one, with their "the story so far". Is this for people who didn't manage the first three operas? King Mark's (over)long aria after he finds Tristan and Isolde
in flagrante. No wonder Tristan falls on Melot's sword. Anything to shut him up.
But seriously, I know Wagnerites will shoot me down in flames, I honestly think Wagner had a faulty grasp of theatre and drama. In most of his operas, characters spend ages relating what happened to them before the curtain opened. This does not make good drama or good theatre.
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on September 18, 2007, 12:28:36 AM
But seriously, I know Wagnerites will shoot me down in flames, I honestly think Wagner had a faulty grasp of theatre and drama. In most of his operas, characters spend ages relating what happened to them before the curtain opened. This does not make good drama or good theatre.
Tsaraslondon, you are killing me with this criticism :'(.......
marvin
Some pieces that I think that are too long:
SCHUMANN: 4th movement of the first piano Sonata
WAGNER: First Act of Tannhäuser
MAHLER: First Symphony (4th movement), 2nd Symphony (after the Urlicht)
SCHÖNBERG: Pélleas et Melisande
Quote from: marvinbrown on September 18, 2007, 01:08:20 AM
Tsaraslondon, you are killing me with this criticism :'(.......
marvin
Sorry, Marvin. This observation in no way diminishes my admiration for Wagner as a musician. And there are certainly parts of all his operas, in which I can wallow with the best of them. But the very static nature of many of his works, vitiates against them being truly theatrical. Puccini, a much lesser composer than either Wagner or Verdi IMO, was a theatrical wizard. His operas rarely fail in the theatre, even in less than good performances.
Strauss: Der Rosenkavalier. I know that's blasphemy, and I love Salome and and Elektra, but so much of DR seems like a twittering endurance test. The libretto suffers from verbal diarrhoea.
Stockhausen: Anything I've heard from Licht, with the exception of Donnerstag, outstays its welcome.
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on September 18, 2007, 01:22:07 AM
Sorry, Marvin. This observation in no way diminishes my admiration for Wagner as a musician. And there are certainly parts of all his operas, in which I can wallow with the best of them. But the very static nature of many of his works, vitiates against them being truly theatrical. Puccini, a much lesser composer than either Wagner or Verdi IMO, was a theatrical wizard. His operas rarely fail in the theatre, even in less than good performances.
I'm going to dig out something I wrote a year or more ago on the previous version of this board. Not all of it directly responds to your points, but I think there is enough that is relevant in terms of what you call the static quality of Wagner's dramas:
(Person I was responding to:) When you write music as controversial as Wagner, there will be those who revere you and those who hate you. The same was true for Berlioz and Liszt and Bruckner and Mahler. Mediocre composers rarely cause any contraversy because their music arouse no emotions.
(My response:)
There's something to that, but although there are exceptions I wouldn't say such
controversy attends upon Beethoven, Mozart, or Bach - at least not to the degree
one can say that about Wagner. Dislike of Wagner is often expressed as dislike of
the man, for his anti-Semitism, grandiosity, or arrogance, which spreads to the
music and is felt to have implications for Nazism; or it is expressed as distaste for
the musical style - especially because of its slow pace, heaviness, and alleged
verbosity; or he is pilloried for working primarily within one genre. His influence is
usually granted, but would he have been so influential had he been less of a genius?
I'm less an ardent Wagnerian than I was some 20-30 years ago, but I still consider
him one of the top 10 or so (don't ask me all the other 9), and certainly one of the
greatest and original composers after Beethoven. It doesn't matter to me that he
concentrated on opera any more than that matters for me with Verdi, or that it
matters to me that Beethoven's greatest strength was instrumental music or
Chopin's almost entirely as a composer for the piano. Few composers succeed in all
genres. But the accusations of verbosity, tedium, and slow pacing need to be
answered, as I think they at least have some relevance to Wagner's musical style.
Whenever I hear a statement like, "easily 10% (or more) of each major Wagner
opera can be cut," I always ask "which 10% do you have in mind?", and I've never
gotten a satisfactory answer. As an example, it's often pointed out that the Ring
librettos were composed in reverse order, and much of the story is repeated in later
operas as a result. But the music to the operas was written in forward order, and
Wagner could easily have pruned all the reminiscences and retellings had he felt
they impeded the musical drama he was trying to create. He did not. And since
Wagner was obviously not stupid, it's worth trying to understand why he kept all
the apparent repetition in. The answer, I believe, is that Wagner's characters do
not simply act, but they also constantly re-interpret and try to make sense of their
actions, to the point where this introspection is essential to the kind of drama
Wagner was trying to create. To an unprecedented degree, Wagner's characters
live within their minds. This is as relevant to Tristan trying to understand his
experiences in Act III of his opera as it is to Wotan reviewing his reasons for
creating a race of heroes in Act II of Walkuere, or even to Siegfried trying to grasp
his life's history as he recounts his adventures in the last act of
Goetterdaemmerung.
It is true as well that Wagner's style is basically slowly paced, Meistersinger perhaps
the major exception. That is appropriate to a musical drama that deals in
archetypes and myths. Wagner's aim is only rarely edge-of-your-seat excitement -
though he can achieve this when needed, as with Hagen's call to the vassals or
Siegfried's forging song. More often he is aiming for in-depth characterization, but of
figures who are less like "real people" than like the shadowy archetypes of elemental
human emotions and motivations. This mythical remoteness is part of the style too,
and is allied to the generally slow pacing.
Wagner's most obvious musical technique, the Leitmotif, is essential as well to the
type of musical drama he created. He broke in the later operas from the standard
"number opera" of Mozart and Verdi, but based his style instead on the constant
development and deployment of short, pregnant figures that can stand for a
character, a concept, an emotion, etc. This means though that if one does not
listen with the words in mind and simply hears the music, it can seem incoherent as
these brief figures shift in and out of the musical texture. But if one attends to the
words and music together as part of the "Gesamtkunstwerk," the coherence -
largely text-based of the musical texture becomes more apparent. One becomes
also aware of how the immense Wagnerian orchestra can serve as a commentator
on the musical action - a famous example being how when Hagen, welcoming
Siegfried to the Gibichungs' hall, does so to the motif of Alberich's curse on the ring.
Or to take another famous, more enigmatic example, there is the way Siegmund, on
pulling the sword from the tree in Act I of Walkuere, uses the same music as did
Alberich on renouncing love in the first scene of Rheingold. Wagner obviously linked
the two moments in some way, but what did he mean?
Clearly this way of proceeding is very different from that of prior operatic
composers. In Handel, for instance, working within the number opera convention,
the action is carried by the secco recitative and the da capo aria is used as a
means of reflecting on the action. Mozart continues this tradition to some degree,
but already is more flexible in introducing small ensembles and in particular the
stunning, purely musical 20-minute finales that typically end each of his acts. Yet
when listened to without attention to the words, these numbers still achieve an
immediate musical coherence that Wagner's textures might not. But Wagner's
innovations produced a greater continuity of texture, which led the way to
composers like Mahler, Strauss, and Schoenberg, and not only in their vocal music.
I could go on in terms of Wagner's harmonic innovations - that is, his greater
chromaticism and freer approach to modulation and tonality - and to his
enlargement of the symphony orchestra primarily to increase the size of the
woodwind choir and to rely more on the fully chromatic brass instruments that came
into being in the mid-19th century. But enough. This post is already turning all
too Wagnerian itself. I don't relish the kind of pissing contest threads like this turn
into. But if you have objections to Wagner, maybe you can at least try to raise them
in response to some of what I've said here.
Suk's Fantastic Scherzo, a piece I adore but have always thought could be shaved by a minute or two to excise unnecessary repetition. As delightful as the themes are, they just don't warrant that much time. The same could be said for most of Bruckner's scherzi.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 17, 2007, 08:17:54 PM
Not just orchestra. I'd be far happier if the Vingt Regards were reduced to Douze, or better yet Deux.
Actually I wouldn't change any of the
Regards. His best work, easily.
Cage - 4'33" (needs to be edited out of existence)
Quote from: Grazioso on September 18, 2007, 04:17:07 AM
Suk's Fantastic Scherzo, a piece I adore but have always thought could be shaved by a minute or two to excise unnecessary repetition. As delightful as the themes are, they just don't warrant that much time. The same could be said for most of Bruckner's scherzi.
I don't agree...nor do most critics and musicologists. The consensus is: Bruckner was incapable of writing a weak scherzo.
Sarge
Quote from: val on September 18, 2007, 01:13:17 AM
Some pieces that I think that are too long:
* * *
MAHLER: . . . 2nd Symphony (after the Urlicht)
:o I disagree, the fifth movement is wonderful.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 18, 2007, 05:39:29 AM
I don't agree...nor do most critics and musicologists. The consensus is: Bruckner was incapable of writing a weak scherzo.
Sarge
Looks like I'm gonna go against the grain here, too, Sarge - love Bruckner, but those Scherzi ...
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 18, 2007, 03:17:07 AM
I'm going to dig out something I wrote a year or more ago on the previous version of this board....
You beat me to the punch, Larry, and in far superior style than I could muster. My basic point being: each time the narrative is repeated, it's from a different character or characters' perspective and we gain further insight into and knowledge about the action and consequences of the action. To criticize Wagner because he didn't write fast-paced, crowd pleasing theatrical drama like Verdi and Puccini is to miss the point of his epics. It's as nonsensical as criticizing Dante or Cervantes because
The Divine Comedy isn't a sonnet or
Don Quixote a short story.
Sarge
Quote from: Mark on September 18, 2007, 05:49:15 AM
Looks like I'm gonna go against the grain here, too, Sarge - love Bruckner, but those Scherzi ...
You're weird, Mark.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 18, 2007, 05:50:18 AM
You're weird, Mark.
Sarge
I know. Makes for an interesting life. ;D
Quote from: Mark on September 18, 2007, 05:51:18 AM
I know. Makes for an interesting life. ;D
Makes for an interesting forum anyway ;)
Sarge
Quote from: Keemun on September 18, 2007, 05:46:36 AM
:o I disagree, the fifth movement is wonderful.
Yes, quite! The last movement is enthralling.
Bad editors: Mahler, Wagner ( ;D )
Excellent editors: Mozart, Haydn, Chopin, Brahms, Hugo Wolf
Re. Bruckner - the scherzos work well IMO, and the repetition is very deliberate (like in the adagios). When played by a powerful orchestra, each repetition builds up such a feeling of momentum and gravity.
Quote from: Lethe on September 18, 2007, 07:04:02 AM
Re. Bruckner - the scherzos work well IMO, and the repetition is very deliberate (like in the adagios). When played by a powerful orchestra, each repetition builds up such a feeling of momentum and gravity.
Hmm ... not sure I'd agree here about the repetitions in some of Bruckner's work. I seem to recall recently becoming quite annoyed with them in one of his symphonies, though which one I don't remember. Possibly the performance was at fault.
Quote from: val on September 18, 2007, 01:13:17 AM
SCHUMANN: 4th movement of the first piano Sonata
I may agree. But only because I love the
coda and I can't wait to listen to it.
Most of Shostakovich's symphonies.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on September 17, 2007, 08:16:46 PM
Tell me exactly what you'd cut.
I know we got into this territory with Mahler, but people would not specify what they did not like. I also would welcome cuts in Wagner. I would have quite a bit of Siegfried scissored, especially act 1...all the endless winging and act 2. Even the love duet at the end seems overextended. Of course, I know he was a genius, he wrote exactly what he wanted, but for me, sitting in the theatre, I find my circulation in danger and my bum numb.
I was at a concert performance of Meistersingers last year and there were long passages in act 1 and act 2 where I ached for things to move on. Wagner can drive me nuts with the double repetition of the exposition. Sometimes I think he felt the audience was thick that it needed to be told so much three times.
I know it is symphonic and that it is through written and each section relates to earlier and later sections. I know it is sacrilege, I am not suggesting it always be performed with heavy cuts....just when I am around.
Conversely, I would leave Walkure, Gotterdammerung and Tristan severely alone, so I am not a total philistine, just a part time one.
Mike
Quote from: knight on September 18, 2007, 01:42:02 PM
I know we got into this territory with Mahler, but people would not specify what they did not like. I also would welcome cuts in Wagner. I would have quite a bit of Siegfried scissored, especially act 1...all the endless winging and act 2. Even the love duet at the end seems overextended. Of course, I know he was a genius, he wrote exactly what he wanted, but for me, sitting in the theatre, I find my circulation in danger and my bum numb.
Mike
My heart aches as I am reading this......... Siegfried Act 1 is a high point for me, Fafner's leitmotif, the steel forging scene, the three question exchange between Mime and Wotan disguised as the Wanderer, Siegfried's realization that he is not of Mime's kind, oh dear lots of very fine moments. Mike, I play Act 1 of Siegfried more than any other, and Solti's recording is filled with excitement and power......... I guess I stand alone here :'( !
marvin
You see....I am not surprised; so, it is only when I am around that they need to retain the high points and flood the plains around them.
Mike
QuoteMark
Looks like I'm gonna go against the grain here, too, Sarge - love Bruckner, but those Scherzi ...
To me, the Scherzi of the 2nd and 9th Symphonies are perhaps the most beautiful ever composed. Please Mark, listen to the Scherzo of the 2nd conducted by Chailly or the Scherzo of the 9th with Furtwängler or Van Beinum. It is extraordinary music.
Perhaps you are thinking about the Scherzi of the 6th, 7th or 8th: I agree with you that they seem a little pale compared to the other movements.
Quote from: val on September 19, 2007, 12:39:04 AM
To me, the Scherzi of the 2nd and 9th Symphonies are perhaps the most beautiful ever composed. Please Mark, listen to the Scherzo of the 2nd conducted by Chailly or the Scherzo of the 9th with Furtwängler or Van Beinum. It is extraordinary music.
Perhaps you are thinking about the Scherzi of the 6th, 7th or 8th: I agree with you that they seem a little pale compared to the other movements.
Thanks, Val. I think it was the Fifth or Eighth Symphony's scherzo which grated on me. Will have to listen anew. ;)