Audiences owed much to this man.
Though much has happened since his revolutionary Beethoven cycle, he was the conductor who showed me that those symphonies can be conducted in a different way, with a different sound. Others have built on his ideas — and the HIP movement has come a long way — but he got the ball rolling.
Quote from: brewski on July 18, 2025, 02:55:33 PMThough much has happened since his revolutionary Beethoven cycle, he was the conductor who showed me that those symphonies can be conducted in a different way, with a different sound. Others have built on his ideas — and the HIP movement has come a long way — but he got the ball rolling.
Yes. It's a little funny to think of it now, when I almost never hear a recording of
Symphonie fantastique that I don't like, but back in my grad school days I had grown a bit jaded to it, and
Norrington's account of the piece reopened my ears to it.
His recording of Beethoven's symphonies with the London Classical Players was rough-hewn, bold, and exciting. Even though Norrington has enjoyed a long, illustrious career with both the period style and modern style performances, I think that this work with the London Classical Players is his true legacy.
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Quote from: Scion7 on July 18, 2025, 06:02:55 PM-
Where is that from? I thought it might be from Inside Early Music: Conversations With Performers - his interview in that changed the way I heard the Eroica.
Just recently I was playing a Monteverdi recording he put out on the Argo label in the early 70s and thought it held up really well.
I thought he was about 10 years younger than that!
I actually prefer the 19th century Romantic repertoire he recorded with Stuttgart/SWR to his HIP recordings. I need to pull out the Erato set I got last year and see what I like best in there.
Liz Haddon's book, Making music in Britain : interviews with those behind the notes
RIP but I thought that his (incomplete) VW symphonies cycle was very disappointing. In trying to make Vaughan Williams sound 'International' all he achieved was in making the music unidiomatic. Of the few recorded I thought that No.3 (A Pastoral Symphony) was the best. I can think of more deserving conductors who were never Knighted.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 20, 2025, 04:39:31 AMRIP but I thought that his (incomplete) VW symphonies cycle was very disappointing. In trying to make Vaughan Williams sound 'International' all he achieved was in making the music unidiomatic. Of the few recorded I thought that No.3 (A Pastoral Symphony) was the best. I can think of more deserving conductors who were never Knighted.
The endeavor feels fundamentally misguided. Indeed, it nearly provokes the q.
What was he thinking? But, how many prominent artists would suffer, if they were judged by their poorest work?
Quote from: Karl Henning on July 20, 2025, 05:11:27 AMThe endeavor feels fundamentally misguided. Indeed, it nearly provokes the q. What was he thinking? But, how many prominent artists would suffer, if they were judged by their poorest work?
Good point
Karl
Quote from: Karl Henning on July 20, 2025, 05:11:27 AMBut, how many prominent artists would suffer, if they were judged by their poorest work?
Have you heard Wellington's Victory? Beethoven is such a hack!
Quote from: vandermolen on July 20, 2025, 04:39:31 AMRIP but I thought that his (incomplete) VW symphonies cycle was very disappointing. In trying to make Vaughan Williams sound 'International' all he achieved was in making the music unidiomatic. Of the few recorded I thought that No.3 (A Pastoral Symphony) was the best. I can think of more deserving conductors who were never Knighted.
I'll be honest, he is not one of my favorite conductors. That is why I chose to focus on where his music-making was at least important.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 20, 2025, 04:39:31 AMRIP but I thought that his (incomplete) VW symphonies cycle was very disappointing. In trying to make Vaughan Williams sound 'International' all he achieved was in making the music unidiomatic. Of the few recorded I thought that No.3 (A Pastoral Symphony) was the best. I can think of more deserving conductors who were never Knighted.
I must admit I am not a fan of much of Norrington's recorded legacy but actually I think his RVW discs are rather good. Helped by fine Decca recording and polished LPO playing. Norrington had a long-standing respect and admiration for RVW including (as I recall) singing in a performance the composer attended towards the end of his life. Also, these are
not performances where Norrington tries to impose HIP ideas on the music. I'm not suggesting they are the 'best' that's ever been but actually they are better than many by my reckoning. His Serenade to Music (not a work Jeffrey enjoys I know) might well be considered the best ever....
I don't think I've ever heard his RVW, or even knew he recorded any RVW.
The one recording where I think he fell down on the job is Mahler 2; it's only one of three M2 recordings I actively dislike*. But it's been perhaps 12 or 15 years since I listened to it.
*FTR the other two are Abbado/Vienna and Abbado/Luzern. Ironically Abbado/Chicago is one of my favorites.
I think I had one of his Beethoven recordings from that initial cycle (the 9th, I think). Didn't keep it and haven't been tempted since. It was a good lesson about hype, I suppose.
Apart from recordings in big compendiums, I've only kept one Norrington CD: the Weber Symphonies. But there the music itself is disappointing. I only kept the CD to fill a discographic hole.
There's a particularly assholish obituary from the asshole David Hurwitz. I wont link to it but its out there.
edit: and now I see that Norrington hate has been a recurring theme in his broadcasts. And what a devoted fan base DH has out there in the comments sections to applaud his wit every time he says something as un-elucidating as "musical guano".
playing now to get that bad taste out of my mouth:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/715qINRYxQL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)
and following it with 87 from this:
(https://music-reviews.markallengroup.com/gramophone/media-thumbnails/haydn_paris_symphonies.jpg)
must be something wrong with my ears because this sounds perfectly fine to me
Quote from: vandermolen on July 20, 2025, 04:39:31 AMRIP but I thought that his (incomplete) VW symphonies cycle was very disappointing. In trying to make Vaughan Williams sound 'International' all he achieved was in making the music unidiomatic. Of the few recorded I thought that No.3 (A Pastoral Symphony) was the best. I can think of more deserving conductors who were never Knighted.
I have not heard a note of Norrington's RVW cycle Jeffrey, but quite surprised that his recording of the 5th Symphony was liked on a recent broadcast of 'Building a Library' of the 5th. Marriner, Barbirolli and Boult (Decca) also won plaudits. Outright top recommendation went to Hickox.
Quote from: Irons on July 20, 2025, 11:07:33 PMI have not heard a note of Norrington's RVW cycle Jeffrey, but quite surprised that his recording of the 5th Symphony was liked on a recent broadcast of 'Building a Library' of the 5th. Marriner, Barbirolli and Boult (Decca) also won plaudits. Outright top recommendation went to Hickox.
Interesting Lol as Hickox gets quite a lot of criticism in relation to his VW symphonies recordings, although the 1913 A London Symphony is one of the great VW recordings. I rather enjoyed his set although, sadly he never lived to complete it. I saw him conduct the 9th Symphony not long before his premature death and am sorry that it was not recorded.
I haven't listened to any of his recordings in ages as what I'd heard (and granted it wasn't much) didn't resonate with me. As
@brewski pointed out though, he did help to get the HIP movement going. I must admit that early HIP recordings don't do anything for me. :(
K
Quote from: Kalevala on July 21, 2025, 06:48:24 AMI haven't listened to any of his recordings in ages as what I'd heard (and granted it wasn't much) didn't resonate with me. As @brewski pointed out though, he did help to get the HIP movement going. I must admit that early HIP recordings don't do anything for me. :(
K
There's a case to be made that it was a while, finding its footing.
Quote from: Karl Henning on July 21, 2025, 06:51:55 AMThere's a case to be made that it was a while, finding its footing.
Years ago, a Towers Record employee encouraged me to buy a David Munrow CD; I think that I listened to it once. :(
K
Quote from: Kalevala on July 21, 2025, 06:48:24 AMI haven't listened to any of his recordings in ages as what I'd heard (and granted it wasn't much) didn't resonate with me. As @brewski pointed out though, he did help to get the HIP movement going. I must admit that early HIP recordings don't do anything for me. :(
K
Yes. Early HIP recordings weren't very satisfying because musicians weren't adept at playing the instruments. Not to mention, the caliber of the instruments themselves may have had something to do with that. (I'm not a HIP scholar, so I don't know.) Also, the HIP movement got rolling around the time of early digital recording, which didn't do any favors for some artists, either. No one's going to warm up to recordings — of anything — that are hard to listen to.
But as time has gone on, prowess on all fronts has increased dramatically. The HIP ensembles of today are spectacularly good.
Quote from: brewski on July 21, 2025, 07:45:32 AMYes. Early HIP recordings weren't very satisfying because musicians weren't adept at playing the instruments. Not to mention, the caliber of the instruments themselves may have had something to do with that. (I'm not a HIP scholar, so I don't know.) Also, the HIP movement got rolling around the time of early digital recording, which didn't do any favors for some artists, either. No one's going to warm up to recordings — of anything — that are hard to listen to.
But as time has gone on, prowess on all fronts has increased dramatically. The HIP ensembles of today are spectacularly good.
Yup
to be fair, the mid 1980s when Norrington recorded the Beethoven symphonies were not really the early days of "HIP".
Early for extending the approach to Beethoven, Schubert etc., but early HIP in the sense of using historical instruments for baroque music was mid-1950s through late 1960s and even then someone like Brüggen played historic flute and recorder well enough that one can listen to it today without shuddering, it was mostly the natural brass instruments that needed some more experience.
Quote from: Jo498 on July 21, 2025, 11:57:57 PMto be fair, the mid 1980s when Norrington recorded the Beethoven symphonies were not really the early days of "HIP".
Early for extending the approach to Beethoven, Schubert etc., but early HIP in the sense of using historical instruments for baroque music was mid-1950s through late 1960s and even then someone like Brüggen played historic flute and recorder well enough that one can listen to it today without shuddering, it was mostly the natural brass instruments that needed some more experience.
Thank you for this, much appreciated.
Quote from: Jo498 on July 21, 2025, 11:57:57 PMto be fair, the mid 1980s when Norrington recorded the Beethoven symphonies were not really the early days of "HIP".
Early for extending the approach to Beethoven, Schubert etc., but early HIP in the sense of using historical instruments for baroque music was mid-1950s through late 1960s and even then someone like Brüggen played historic flute and recorder well enough that one can listen to it today without shuddering, it was mostly the natural brass instruments that needed some more experience.
I think it wasn't early days for Dutch PI, but I think the 80s were early days for British PI. Since they adopted very different styles (at least initially), I would think that they developed independently, and in that sense, Norrington, Pinnock, Gardiner, Hogwood, etc., were effectively navigating period-style performances for the first time.
The Brits also started in the late 50s and early 60s (e.g. Thurston Dart), even though they mostly used modern instruments.
But they considered performance practice, used harpsichords, spontaneous embellishments (like in the 1966 Messiah with C. Davis) that sound sometimes exaggerated today etc. Hogwood was playing harpsichord and organ for Marriner's recordings in the 60s, IIRC. Gardiner and Norrington made choral recordings in the 1970s in a style that might be described as "proto-HIP". And Munrow with earlier music.
Hogwood had begun his Mozart recordings already in the late 1970s.
I am not saying that the approach wasn't still fairly new, especially wrt Beethoven in the mid-1980s but the pioneering era was 20 years before that time.
Even if more of the early work was done in the Netherlands (Leonhardt, Brüggen), Basel (Wenziger and others), Vienna (Harnoncourt) and Cologne (although Collegium Aureum seems more semi-HIP from today, they were probably the first going full into the classical era with lots of Mozart, some Haydn, Beethoven and at least chamber music by Schubert), even Boston (Joel Cohen), Britain was not isolated from the rest of the world.
A quick check of the Decca Complete Haebler set shows that she commissioned a fortepiano built in. 1953 based on Mozart-era models for Mozart's bicentennial in 1956, but did not use it in any Philips recordings until 1969. So it was apparently 15 years before she felt ready to record with it. (Or perhaps it wasn't until then that Philips thought it would be commercially viable.) The recordings she used it for were those of J C Bach and Haydn. Ironically, although motivated by the Mozart bicentennial, she doesn't seem to have used it in any Mozart recording.
Quote from: Jo498 on July 22, 2025, 07:00:12 AMBritain was not isolated from the rest of the world.
It may be that the English speaking world (UK and USA for sifferent reasons) was more resistant than continental Europe.
Quote from: Jo498 on July 22, 2025, 07:00:12 AMThe Brits also started in the late 50s and early 60s (e.g. Thurston Dart), even though they mostly used modern instruments.
But they considered performance practice, used harpsichords, spontaneous embellishments (like in the 1966 Messiah with C. Davis) that sound sometimes exaggerated today etc. Hogwood was playing harpsichord and organ for Marriner's recordings in the 60s, IIRC. Gardiner and Norrington made choral recordings in the 1970s in a style that might be described as "proto-HIP". And Munrow with earlier music.
Hogwood had begun his Mozart recordings already in the late 1970s.
I am not saying that the approach wasn't still fairly new, especially wrt Beethoven in the mid-1980s but the pioneering era was 20 years before that time.
Even if more of the early work was done in the Netherlands (Leonhardt, Brüggen), Basel (Wenziger and others), Vienna (Harnoncourt) and Cologne (although Collegium Aureum seems more semi-HIP from today, they were probably the first going full into the classical era with lots of Mozart, some Haydn, Beethoven and at least chamber music by Schubert), even Boston (Joel Cohen), Britain was not isolated from the rest of the world.
Very much agree. Thurston Dart was at the vanguard long before HIP recognised as a movement. I find his Brandenburg set 'informed' as Pinnock et al.
A Thurston Dart recording from 1957 -
(https://i.imgur.com/R3FnUR5.jpg?2)
Quote from: Irons on July 23, 2025, 06:48:35 AMVery much agree. Thurston Dart was at the vanguard long before HIP recognised as a movement. I find his Brandenburg set 'informed' as Pinnock et al.
A Thurston Dart recording from 1957 -
(https://i.imgur.com/R3FnUR5.jpg?2)
I remember liking the Brandenburg Concertos with Neville Marriner (T.D. reconstruction--it that's the correct word) and liking them and buying them.
K
Quote from: Kalevala on July 23, 2025, 02:21:09 PMI remember liking the Brandenburg Concertos with Neville Marriner (T.D. reconstruction--it that's the correct word) and liking them and buying them.
K
If you get the chance K give Dart a listen. Only caveat the trumpet pitch did something weird to my right ear (thankfully only temporary).
(https://i.imgur.com/huhEyeD.jpg)
I think it was one of the Matthews brothers who said he was afraid to listen to Mahler 6 in case it gave him a heart attack, and I feel much the same about Norrington's Beethoven 7 with the LCP.
I remember a Prom, probably from the early '90s, where he conducted the Mozart Requiem, and the rumour was that he had terminal cancer and this was to be his last concert. Well, he showed 'em.
And an amusing (or bemusing) snippet this morning: I live-streamed Mass from St Mary, Bourne Street (London), my go-to provider when I'm not able to get to church in person, and listed one after the other in the "recently departed" slot during the Intercessions (usually reserved for members of the congregation) were Sir Roger Norrington and Ozzy Osbourne. I do wonder what either of them would have made of being named in each other's company (although I'm sure that for David Hurwitz Norrington was also The Prince of Darkness).
I got a digital copy of Norrington's "big box" after reading Dave Hurwitz rip on him. I have only played a few disks so far, but found everything unusually clear, with great instrument separation,lively playing, agreeable tempos, and sensible interpretations. Perhaps he can be considered "middle of the road" early HIP. Not a bad place to be. I place myself in the fan column.