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The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: Mandryka on August 18, 2025, 03:59:07 AM

Title: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on August 18, 2025, 03:59:07 AM
I'm quite surprised to notice that there is a "loud and proud" sacred current in modern art music, I think more so than in drama, plastic arts and literature -- please correct me if that is wrong.

Anyway, here's a thread to collect them, note them, comment on them.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music
Post by: Mandryka on August 18, 2025, 04:01:25 AM
I'll kick it off with something I've only just discovered -- through a comment I read by composer Dominique Lemaître. Pierre Henry's  L'Apocalypse de Jean





A commission by André  Malraux 's ministry of culture, and created in October 1968 in Paris, surprising in a way given the zeitgeist

(https://fr.shopping.rakuten.com/photo/2287615466.jpg)

Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 18, 2025, 04:28:36 AM
An interesting topic. For some reason, I immediately thought of Éliane Radigue or Toshiro Mayuzumi. Or are we limiting ourselves only to the Western framework? If so, then we'll quickly run into the numerous requiems, psalms, and so on by postwar composers, who were not necessarily expressing genuine spiritual interest, but rather just using the form.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on August 18, 2025, 06:08:47 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 18, 2025, 04:28:36 AMIf so, then we'll quickly run into the numerous requiems, psalms, and so on by postwar composers, who were not necessarily expressing genuine spiritual interest, but rather just using the form.

I think things like Stockhausen's Teenagers' Song and Ligeti's requiem count, I don't think it's a good idea to speculate about composers' real intentions, and they were setting a sacred text after all.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on August 18, 2025, 06:14:31 AM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 18, 2025, 04:28:36 AMAn interesting topic. For some reason, I immediately thought of Éliane Radigue or Toshiro Mayuzumi

I don't know.  I think where they don't set a sacred text -- even a mantra or a koan -- then it doesn't count. But Radigue's Songs of Milarepa? Yes, that's clearly a case in point. 


Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 18, 2025, 06:21:41 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 18, 2025, 06:08:47 AMI think things like Stockhausen's Teenagers' Song and Ligeti's requiem count, I don't think it's a good idea to speculate about composers' real intentions, and they were setting a sacred text after all.

Stockhausen was among the first names that came to my mind.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Cato on August 18, 2025, 06:27:55 AM
My first thought: Karl Amadeus Hartmann, who composed a good number of religious works before and during the Nazi era, and found the division of Germany after WW II between Communism and Freedom painful.

One of his major religious works is his last, from 1963: the cantata on Sodom and Gomorrah.



Symphonic Hymns was composed during the war (1943): he buried it with other manuscripts to preserve them from the Nazis.  But its first performance was not given until 1975!

Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: San Antone on August 18, 2025, 06:34:33 AM
I immediately thought of Arvo Pärt, especially

Arvo Pärt: Kanon Pokajanen
Estonian Philharmonic Chamber Choir, Tõnu Kaljuste

(https://ecm-server.de/audio/00289457/0028945783420/Cover_1000.webp)

" ... based on the canon of repentance of the Russian Orthodox Church. The canon had long fascinated the Estonian composer who finally decided to set it in its entirety in music written to mark the 750th anniversary of Cologne Cathedral. Pärt: "It took over two years to compose the Kanon pokajanen, and its hold on me did not abate until I had finished the score...That may explain why this music means so much to me." As writer Uwe Schweikert has noted, it is "music full of austere, painful beauty." (ECM (https://ecmrecords.com/product/arvo-part-kanon-pokajanen-estonian-philharmonic-chamber-choir-tonu-kaljuste/))

Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Cato on August 18, 2025, 06:35:42 AM
Depending on your definition of "post-World War II composers," we cannot forget Karl Henning, whose catalogue contains all sorts of religious works!


e.g.






Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 18, 2025, 06:44:58 AM
From my perspective, sacred music in its most ideal form ought to be blissful, serene, radiant, free from tension or contradiction. A musical expression of enlightenment. I realize this wish may not resonate with everyone, and perhaps I'm asking for too much. Still, I'm curious to see how the discussion unfolds in the thread.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on August 18, 2025, 07:16:04 AM
Quote from: San Antone on August 18, 2025, 06:34:33 AMI immediately thought of Arvo Pärt, especially

Arvo Pärt: Kanon Pokajanen
Estonian Philharmonic Chamber Choir, Tõnu Kaljuste

(https://ecm-server.de/audio/00289457/0028945783420/Cover_1000.webp)

" ... based on the canon of repentance of the Russian Orthodox Church. The canon had long fascinated the Estonian composer who finally decided to set it in its entirety in music written to mark the 750th anniversary of Cologne Cathedral. Pärt: "It took over two years to compose the Kanon pokajanen, and its hold on me did not abate until I had finished the score...That may explain why this music means so much to me." As writer Uwe Schweikert has noted, it is "music full of austere, painful beauty." (ECM (https://ecmrecords.com/product/arvo-part-kanon-pokajanen-estonian-philharmonic-chamber-choir-tonu-kaljuste/))



A fine piece of music which I listen to quite often. I didn't know it was a religious text though!
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: André on August 18, 2025, 01:35:08 PM
Mixing the religious (biblical and other religion-based writings) with contemporary world events has led quite a few composers to write music with an apocalyptic or dystopian bend. Sven-David Sandström among the more modern ones: The High Mass, Requiem, two towering works that leave an indelible impression.

Many others have written Requiems. As we age, the Afterlife starts becoming more tangible and what better way to reflect on it than reacting to a text dealing with the very idea of death and the Big Question Mark ?

Non-Catholic composers have written music that address a petition to God/the Universe, or reflect on spiritual ideas: Herbert Howells, Britten, Bernstein, Ib Norholm, Frank Martin, Morten Lauridsen... It's a long list, and definitely disproves the 'Gott ist tot' idea.

Modern composers/compositions often eschew adherence to the 'received text', even when writing music titled 'Mass', 'Te Deum' or 'Requiem'. Among the first to depart from the traditional concept were Brahms (through his choice of non Latin sacred writings) and Fauré - a Catholic who managed to compose a Requiem with a human dimension.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: San Antone on August 18, 2025, 03:46:19 PM
Leonard Bernstein's Mass and Osvaldo Golijov's La Pasión según San Marcos are two of my favorite sacred works from any century.


Both are non-Catholic composers (both Jewish) who chose Catholic texts to set to poly-stylistic music.

Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on August 18, 2025, 05:19:59 PM
I like Dutch minimalist organ music - Jan Welmers in particular.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 18, 2025, 07:53:36 PM
What is sacred music? I see the following. Sacred music supports religious ceremonies and spiritual practices by honoring the divine through chant, hymn, anthem, liturgical setting, etc. Its melodies, breath and sacred texts guide the heart beyond the everyday, dissolving boundaries and inviting a shared union with the divine. Music becomes a bridge to the ineffable.

The ultimate recognition is that the divine you've merged with isn't confined to that moment of union but is the very ground of all being. That every person, every creature, every leaf and stone is the sacred presence. In other words, you move from a one-to-one encounter into seeing the oneness in multiplicity, recognizing the divine imprint woven through everything and everyone, and living out that vision through compassion and love.

There comes a moment when you realise that music from diverse traditions can celebrate oneness, and that pieces bound in religious form do not necessarily achieve it. And so, again, we return to our fundamental question: which music, at its very core, can truly be called sacred?
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Kalevala on August 19, 2025, 03:07:40 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 18, 2025, 07:16:04 AMA fine piece of music which I listen to quite often. I didn't know it was a religious text though!
I enjoy that work (been awhile since I've listened to it).

K
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on August 20, 2025, 12:17:55 AM

The Ferneyhough Missa Brevis comes from his "first period" - when he was particularly free, bold, experimental, inspired, exploratory. Along with his first string quartet and Firecycle Beta, it's probably my favourite music from him.

There are three commercial recordings of it at the moment,  Manfred Schreier, Martin Brabbins and Odaline de la Martinez.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: pjme on August 20, 2025, 06:01:52 AM
French and Belgian living composers writing in an "accessible", contemporary style....Do not expect anything "free, bold, experimental, ....., exploratory." here.

Hersant, who studied with Jolivet, wrote several works inspired by religion. I find his (neo-baroque/quasi baroque?) Cantique des trois enfants dans la fournaise extremely beautiful.



Way back in 1988 I heard Jean Louis Florentz "Asun" on France Musique.  It has been re broadcast once or twice... This "Requiem de la vierge" made a huge impression. unfortunately no cd, and it is not on YT.
Belgian composer Piet Swerts (°1960) writes in a very wide variety of (neo-tonal) styles, from easy, folksy pieces for brass band to monumental symphonies, cantatas and concertos.
"Heilige Seelenlust" combines the Song of songs with texts by Angelus Silesius (1624-1677). I was at the premiere and loved the unsual scoring (recorders, wind orchestra, harps, pianos and strings) and the equally unusual combination of (easy on the ear) repetitive motives and grand choral, tonal effusions....

Phaedra recorded that first performance


Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: pjme on August 20, 2025, 06:23:11 AM
Nicolas Bacri is another "néo - tonaliste" not afraid of writing music that speaks of the sacred..;


".....Bacri's style defies classification, benchmarks, and eras. A free, independent creator, he unfolds a powerfully original, neo- or post-tonal, accessible language—without the slightest hint of consensual or regressive lukewarmness. A pure lyricism, sometimes close to Jean-Louis Florentz; by turns minimalist or fluctuating. While his early period betrays a deliberately atonal style of writing, he refutes all aesthetic dogma, all scholastic conceptions of musical art. He could make his own the poet Tristan Tzara's words: "I know that I carry the melody within me and am not afraid of it." Let us quote Bacri himself: we must strive to "examine the possibilities of reconnecting with expanded tonal symphonic thought." This is perfectly illustrated by the current recording.

The strengths of this explorer of sound? A science of choral illumination, contrapuntal rigor, rhythmic pulse. He is not a vulgar epigone, proceeding by skillful collages or artificial quotations; Bacri's talent consists in forging a complex alliance of opposites, a crossing of harmonic ogives. It is experimental and syncretic music. The cantata Arc-en-Ciel du Silence (Isiltasunaren Ortzadarra, on Basque texts – tracks 3 to 15 of disc 1) is an absolute masterpiece. A frantic rush of lyrical impulses, close to opera... Vehement and wild chords, crossed by Webernian micro-silences, followed by a burst of hypnotic, disembodied melodies. Clearly, the Song of the Earth haunts Bacri just like the Adagietto of Symphony No. 5: in track 7 we discover impalpable Mahlerian glissandi."

from:

 https://www.anaclase.com/content/nicolas-bacri

(https://www.anaclase.com/sites/default/files/CD%20bacri%20cantates%20empreinte%20anaclase.jpg?1377187663)
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Florestan on August 20, 2025, 10:51:26 AM
Quote from: André on August 18, 2025, 01:35:08 PMFauré - a Catholic who managed to compose a Requiem with a human dimension.

If by this you mean that the music is gentle and consoling rather than doom-and-gloom, he was not the first to manage it. Donizetti and Gounod did it before him. And curiously enough, so did a non-Catholic like Schumann.

Btw, Faure may have been raised as a Catholic but he was not particularly devout and later in life he became rather agnostic.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: DaveF on August 20, 2025, 12:41:48 PM
James MacMillan has written a large amount of sacred music, much of it intended for liturgical use.  Some is very loud, and all very proud (he's a Roman Catholic).  I sang the Magnificat last week:


Congregation was a bit stunned at the end.  Lots of Messiaenic birdsong in it.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: San Antone on August 22, 2025, 12:26:36 PM
Barber : Agnus Dei
Voces8

Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on August 22, 2025, 01:20:44 PM
(https://i.discogs.com/T6zuG815exiSAJu2oiW1BKi9JbimFuxb-6Vx4RSGB3E/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:569/w:594/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTMyODQz/OTYtMTMyNzg1NTc4/OC5qcGVn.jpeg)

Ralph Shapey's Praise contains settings of central Jewish liturgical texts like The Shema and the Kedushah as well as some psalms. I can't recommend it more highly, I'm a bit of a Shapey fan and this is one of his more astonishing pieces.

Some more info here, it's streaming everywhere.

https://www.newworldrecords.org/products/ralph-shapey-praise


Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on August 22, 2025, 01:26:55 PM
I also want to mention Scelsi's Quattro illustrazioni sulle metamorfosi di Visnu, which are musical metaphors for four traditional incarnations of Vishnu. Todd McComb's comments here

http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/scelsi/4illus.php

and a random performance on youtube


Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 22, 2025, 08:27:18 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 22, 2025, 01:26:55 PMI also want to mention Scelsi's Quattro illustrazioni sulle metamorfosi di Visnu, which are musical metaphors for four traditional incarnations of Vishnu. Todd McComb's comments here

http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/scelsi/4illus.php



Are there four parts, one for each? Lord Vishnu, the preserver within the Trimurti, is said to possess innumerable incarnations. Among the most renowned are Rama and Krishna.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: aukhawk on August 23, 2025, 08:54:22 AM
I want to mention Britten's War Requiem.  There is a whiff of irony in the juxtaposition of the Mass and the poems of Wilfred Owen, but even so ...   
Britten has also given us several works based on Biblical content, such as Burning Fiery Furnace and Cantata Misericordium.

Equally epic is Penderecki's St Luke Passion.

The majority of Messiaen's music is devotional in nature, often explicitly so such as Vingt Regards sur l'enfant Jésus, and L'Ascension, etc.

Likewise Tavener - Celtic Requiem etc.

Not believing in Gott does not, as far as I know, affect my enjoyment of any of this music.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on August 23, 2025, 01:20:48 PM
(https://i.discogs.com/EhJ80Jf3_LNG7wE6JAkPduMRCtEmmM-ggDOSVVOeDLQ/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:354/w:355/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTg1NTkx/NjAtMTQ2NDAyNzA2/Ny03NzE1LmpwZWc.jpeg)

Anyone who thinks that serial music is inexpressive or cerebral or ugly hasn't heard Krenek's Lamentations. It's gorgeous. The reviews on Amazon say better than I can what this music is like.

There are at least three recordings and two are streaming. Creed does seem a bit special actually- that's the one that's not streaming unfortunately.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Krenek-Lamentatio-Jeremiae-Prophetae-Lamentations/dp/B001927MJ0
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: steve ridgway on August 26, 2025, 04:53:52 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on August 23, 2025, 08:54:22 AMEqually epic is Penderecki's St Luke Passion.

Penderecki composed a number of religious pieces; Credo is quite pleasant.

Stravinsky also wrote a few in his later years.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Todd on August 26, 2025, 05:50:51 AM
A couple years ago I did a mini survey of post war requiems.  I ended with Helga Pogatschar.  It is an amazing work, though I suspect many people will dislike it.


Full scribbling: https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?msg=1506862.  The other works covered came before for a couple weeks.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on August 27, 2025, 08:35:30 AM

George Crumb's Lux Aeterna - I'd love to actually see this because the title is "Lux Aeterna, after a 13th century Requiem Mass, for five masked musicians."
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: André on August 27, 2025, 04:02:01 PM
I listened to Messiaen's Vingt regards sur l'Enfant Jésus. Over 2 hours of piano music with little obvious variety. The 'sacred' in this work is more in the subtext (Messiaen's description of the pieces) than in anything the music itself carries. As it unfolds though there is a sense of the mystic, an aspiration to the sublime. I was quite impressed and definitely more involved than in most of his other pieces.

Quatuor pour la fin du Temps is another overtly religious piece (based on the Book of Revelation) where the music (sublime) needs to be listened to with the composer's stated intent in mind. Because the music alone will not carry that message.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on September 01, 2025, 12:52:20 AM
(https://i.discogs.com/2UaUHgtSgFAX2C0k8yQrDPDXzfI8nxzzoG2dtXz3nj4/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTE4ODI5/OTU0LTE2MjE2Nzk2/NjEtNTE1Ny5qcGVn.jpeg)

Volker David Kirchner wrote the Missa Moguntina for Mainz cathedral. We're in a world of Neue Einfachheit - this mass is extremely expressive and lyrical, a sort of latter day Missa Solemnis.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on September 01, 2025, 02:03:28 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71swv2gRTDL._AC_SX679_.jpg)

Scelsi wrote the Tre Canti Sacri in 1958. There's an Angelus, a Requiem and a Gloria. The third, Gloria, is a major masterpiece, real "religious" energy.

Lots of recordings - the one above from Manfred Schreier is amazing really.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on September 02, 2025, 12:21:37 AM
Quote from: pjme on August 20, 2025, 06:23:11 AMNicolas Bacri is another "néo - tonaliste" not afraid of writing music that speaks of the sacred..;


".....Bacri's style defies classification, benchmarks, and eras. A free, independent creator, he unfolds a powerfully original, neo- or post-tonal, accessible language—without the slightest hint of consensual or regressive lukewarmness. A pure lyricism, sometimes close to Jean-Louis Florentz; by turns minimalist or fluctuating. While his early period betrays a deliberately atonal style of writing, he refutes all aesthetic dogma, all scholastic conceptions of musical art. He could make his own the poet Tristan Tzara's words: "I know that I carry the melody within me and am not afraid of it." Let us quote Bacri himself: we must strive to "examine the possibilities of reconnecting with expanded tonal symphonic thought." This is perfectly illustrated by the current recording.

The strengths of this explorer of sound? A science of choral illumination, contrapuntal rigor, rhythmic pulse. He is not a vulgar epigone, proceeding by skillful collages or artificial quotations; Bacri's talent consists in forging a complex alliance of opposites, a crossing of harmonic ogives. It is experimental and syncretic music. The cantata Arc-en-Ciel du Silence (Isiltasunaren Ortzadarra, on Basque texts – tracks 3 to 15 of disc 1) is an absolute masterpiece. A frantic rush of lyrical impulses, close to opera... Vehement and wild chords, crossed by Webernian micro-silences, followed by a burst of hypnotic, disembodied melodies. Clearly, the Song of the Earth haunts Bacri just like the Adagietto of Symphony No. 5: in track 7 we discover impalpable Mahlerian glissandi."

from:

 https://www.anaclase.com/content/nicolas-bacri

(https://www.anaclase.com/sites/default/files/CD%20bacri%20cantates%20empreinte%20anaclase.jpg?1377187663)


Re Florentz's Asun -- this may be of interest. It does indeed sound impressive.

https://www.radiofrance.fr/francemusique/podcasts/le-mitan-des-musiciens/jean-louis-florentz-in-memoriam-1-5-8299986
https://www.radiofrance.fr/francemusique/podcasts/le-mitan-des-musiciens/jean-louis-florentz-in-memoriam-5-5-1717043

And Nicolas Bacri has put one of his cantatas on soundcloud -- I shall order the cd

https://soundcloud.com/user-813852459/bacri-1994-95-cantate-n4-op-44-sonnet-66-de-w-shakespeare
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: pjme on September 02, 2025, 12:49:41 AM
Very different artistic takes on the Mass and a Passion.

Petr Eben :  his Missa cum populo (1982) swings and is rather fun. Do churches exist that have a chorus and orchestra?.



Michaël Levinas : La Passion selon Marc. Une Passion après Auschwitz ( ca 2016-2017):. first listen .... to some fragments and was distracted by the many ugly close ups of singers. ...
First time ever experience with music by Levinas. Couldn't help finding it ..old fashioned.. However, I may give it a second listen, without visuals...


is 
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: pjme on September 02, 2025, 01:43:09 AM
Possibly this is the (Boulez) performance I heard on the radio  (late seventies, early eighties), and, again, I am deeply impressed.

I bought later this cd

(https://www.playthek.com/images/cover/528/909/2rc8ujg0.j31)

The 7 minutes "duet" for soprano and trombone "Voice crying in the wilderness" is wonderfully extatic. The entire score is extravagant and grandly exuberant, yet manages -imho- to convey grandeur and mystery ...




"The Latin text in Star-Child was adapted from Dies irae and Massacre of the Innocents of the thirteenth century, as well as John 12:36 which says, "While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them."[10] Crumb used Latin text because he believed it conveyed a universal meaning of finding a way out of despair to a hopeful and bright future. Although four conductors are required for this piece, only conductor number one conducts the vocal lines.The first phrase of Dies irae is specifically used in the fourth movement as well as at the very end of the piece. The second movement contains text from Dies irae as well, which is sung by a solo soprano in a duet with a solo trombonist located in front of the orchestra between solo vocalists. The final text of the piece comes from John 12:36"
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: pjme on September 02, 2025, 02:17:56 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 02, 2025, 12:21:37 AMRe Florentz's Asun -- this may be of interest. It does indeed sound impressive.

https://www.radiofrance.fr/francemusique/podcasts/le-mitan-des-musiciens/jean-louis-florentz-in-memoriam-1-5-8299986 (https://www.radiofrance.fr/francemusique/podcasts/le-mitan-des-musiciens/jean-louis-florentz-in-memoriam-1-5-8299986)
https://www.radiofrance.fr/francemusique/podcasts/le-mitan-des-musiciens/jean-louis-florentz-in-memoriam-5-5-1717043 (https://www.radiofrance.fr/francemusique/podcasts/le-mitan-des-musiciens/jean-louis-florentz-in-memoriam-5-5-1717043)
thanks! 

I will listen soon.
P.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on September 04, 2025, 01:32:18 PM
Quote from: pjme on August 20, 2025, 06:01:52 AMFrench and Belgian living composers writing in an "accessible", contemporary style....Do not expect anything "free, bold, experimental, ....., exploratory." here.

Hersant, who studied with Jolivet, wrote several works inspired by religion. I find his (neo-baroque/quasi baroque?) Cantique des trois enfants dans la fournaise extremely beautiful.



Way back in 1988 I heard Jean Louis Florentz "Asun" on France Musique.  It has been re broadcast once or twice... This "Requiem de la vierge" made a huge impression. unfortunately no cd, and it is not on YT.
Belgian composer Piet Swerts (°1960) writes in a very wide variety of (neo-tonal) styles, from easy, folksy pieces for brass band to monumental symphonies, cantatas and concertos.
"Heilige Seelenlust" combines the Song of songs with texts by Angelus Silesius (1624-1677). I was at the premiere and loved the unsual scoring (recorders, wind orchestra, harps, pianos and strings) and the equally unusual combination of (easy on the ear) repetitive motives and grand choral, tonal effusions....

Phaedra recorded that first performance




I am very impressed by Asun - thanks so much for drawing my attention to it.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on September 04, 2025, 11:13:16 PM
Re Florentz, note that Asun is the final part of a single work in three parts -- Magnificat followed by Laudes followed by Asun (Requiem). This is according to Hélène Thiebault in the programme on France Musique I linked to above.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on September 07, 2025, 01:50:17 PM
Stefan Wolpe's Yigdal Cantata is a setting of a traditional Jewish liturgical text.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/515iDAYxCYL._AC_.jpg)
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Louis on September 09, 2025, 06:27:09 AM
I suspect one reason for the "sacred music" trend, which is indeed huge in music since 1945 and particularly from the 1970s on:

It's absurdly hard for composers to come up with new music which is dialectial and profound from its own structure and form.

A lot of modern music sounds simply "meditative"

So why not take a meditative piece of music and try to make it more profound by saying it's about faith and god.

Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on September 09, 2025, 09:38:08 AM
Quote from: Louis on September 09, 2025, 06:27:09 AMI suspect one reason for the "sacred music" trend, which is indeed huge in music since 1945 and particularly from the 1970s on:

It's absurdly hard for composers to come up with new music which is dialectial and profound from its own structure and form.

A lot of modern music sounds simply "meditative"

So why not take a meditative piece of music and try to make it more profound by saying it's about faith and god.



I urge you to go through the examples posted here so far, because I don't think any of them are "simply "meditative" with the possible exception of the Part. On the contrary.

There may be some truth in what you say, but I doubt it's the heart of the matter. 

But it is strange, that in music there should be such a theological trend but not, as far as I know, in  any other art.   Maybe it's partly a question of sponsorship.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on September 10, 2025, 12:48:59 AM
Schoenberg's setting of the Hebrew text of Psalm 130 was written after the war - 1950. Very prayerful performance here

Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on September 20, 2025, 09:14:14 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61pCzfsRy7L.jpg)


Wilhelm Killmayer's Missa Brevis - very impressive and distinctive this one, though I should say that I always like Killmayer's music. An early piece, he was under 30 when he wrote it I think. Streaming.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on October 03, 2025, 01:19:50 PM
Georg Rochberg's Songs in Praise of Krishna - very nicely made songs, this could turn out to be my favourite Rochberg music. Neva Pilgrim singing and the composer on the piano. Atonal, lyrical, beautiful tunes.  Streaming.

(https://i.discogs.com/oVZ7YDcM8IkgD8lRQZ_c01ZGNZqPrCktOW9FYEZfBpQ/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:450/w:450/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTM3ODAx/MzctMTM0NDEyMzUx/Mi04NTQ0LmpwZWc.jpeg)
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: AnotherSpin on October 03, 2025, 09:53:56 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on October 03, 2025, 01:19:50 PMGeorg Rochberg's Songs in Praise of Krishna - very nicely made songs, this could turn out to be my favourite Rochberg music. Neva Pilgrim singing and the composer on the piano. Atonal, lyrical, beautiful tunes.  Streaming.


(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/6a/0i/poz03gx9o0i6a_600.jpg)

Almost like a character out of Hesse's Die Morgenlandfahrt, a devotee of all things Indian, I could hardly resist when I stumbled upon a mention of hymns to Krishna. The result, alas, was less than inspiring, and what puzzled me most was what Krishna had to do with it at all. Krishna's music is devotion, not design; no mind, no atonality, just the heart keeping time. Rooted in bhakti, it flows through simple chanting, bhajans, kirtans, far from the cerebral experiments of modern composition.

To restore some sense of balance, I turned instead to an old favourite, 1971 album of Krishna bhajans featuring George Harrison, recorded by the London branch of the Hare Krishna movement and produced by Harrison himself. :)
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on October 04, 2025, 01:07:49 PM
Quote from: AnotherSpin on October 03, 2025, 09:53:56 PM(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/6a/0i/poz03gx9o0i6a_600.jpg)

Almost like a character out of Hesse's Die Morgenlandfahrt, a devotee of all things Indian, I could hardly resist when I stumbled upon a mention of hymns to Krishna. The result, alas, was less than inspiring, and what puzzled me most was what Krishna had to do with it at all. Krishna's music is devotion, not design; no mind, no atonality, just the heart keeping time. Rooted in bhakti, it flows through simple chanting, bhajans, kirtans, far from the cerebral experiments of modern composition.

To restore some sense of balance, I turned instead to an old favourite, 1971 album of Krishna bhajans featuring George Harrison, recorded by the London branch of the Hare Krishna movement and produced by Harrison himself. :)

As you know I like the Rochberg, but as so often with him it outstays its welcome - it's too long.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on October 06, 2025, 01:21:39 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51iZ7n9EgeL._AC_SY300_SX300_QL70_ML2_.jpg)

Arvo Pärt is a complex composer, and anyone who is only aquatinted with early music like the Credo, or with later music like the In Memoriam BB or the a cappella choral music like the Kanon Pokajanen will be meeting something new with his (I think fabulous) setting of excerpts from psalms in Como cierva sedienta. The music is full of events, not at all static or repetitive, and by no means consonant.
Title: Re: Gott ist nicht tot. The sacred in post WW2 music.
Post by: Mandryka on October 09, 2025, 03:25:12 AM
Noah Creshevsky's setting of the 23rd psalm