Couldn't agree more with Gramophone's review of his Mahler recording:
QuoteThey start superbly but these young players miss the measure of Mahler
This is in many respects a rerun of the recording of Beethoven's Fifth and Seventh symphonies (DG, 11/06) by these preternaturally gifted young musicians. As before, one comes away excited and disappointed in almost equal measure.
The symphony is the very devil to perform. A vast Scherzo dominates its central ground, cutting across the journey like a pathless Alpine range. On one side sit two movements that speak of death and conflict; on the other, a love song and a carousel that turn the second movement's unlooked for glimpse of D major heaven into an all-singing, all-dancing D major heaven on earth.
Dudamel and his players are superb in the first two movements. This is music which suits their style, serious and impassioned, universal rather than local, untroubled by kitsch. Brilliantly as the orchestra plays, Dudamel never allows the music-making to become glossy-toned or hysterical, as older and supposedly wiser conductors have sometimes done. He studied the work with Claudio Abbado and in these opening movements the lucidity of his direction is worthy of the master himself.
It is in the mighty Scherzo that things begin to go wrong. Here, for the first time, one notices how bland the orchestra's massed woodwinds sound. The strings and solo brass continue to impress but this is patchwork music, and the players, ill-at-ease with the idiom, give a patchwork performance.
In the Adagietto, the strings come to grief. The portamento style of Mahler's writing seems utterly alien to them. That, married to Dudamel's ruinously slow tempo, uncertain beat and fondness for pianissimi that sound but rarely speak, makes for an unengaging reading. The finale gets a very dashing performance. A bit too dashing. The great chorale crossbeam, so unerringly placed by Dudamel at the end of the second movement, goes for very little, and the helter-skelter playing of the coda makes the music seem silly, rather than what a more experienced band of players might make it: genuinely cook-a-hoop.
Who is DGG trying to dupe?
That's called marketing hype. It sells records*.
I've not heard much by Dudamel, but what I have heard, I liked. For one thing, the guy's got an admirable vitality which I admire.
*Referring to the way DG and others 'promote' their artists. ::)
I also found that review very accurate. However, Dudamel is a fantastically talented conductor, in my opinion: he's just not ready for something like Mahler's 5th, yet.
Take, for instance, his superb Shostakovich 10th from this year's Proms. Well-executed, impassioned, and weighty where it should be. However, this was not a "trick" piece like the Mahler 5th; it didn't have places where measure is needed, and that is where Dudamel consistently fails (between his Beethoven 5th and 7th and his Mahler 5th, that is).
But he is still a "preternaturally gifted young musician", if nothing else for the fact that he can try to tackle this repertory so early, despite the mediocre results (in my opinion). :)
I have not yet heard his recordings, but I am hearing him twice live in the next few weeks: once with his Venezuelan ensemble at Carnegie Hall (Simon Rattle is conducting them in a second concert), and again when he conducts the New York Philharmonic. Very much looking forward to hearing him.
--Bruce
QuoteBut he is still a "preternaturally gifted young musician", if nothing else for the fact that he can try to tackle this repertory so early, despite the mediocre results (in my opinion)
That doesn't excuse DGG for charging people full price for inferior recordings. If some of the proceeds went into sponsoring classical music in the developing countries, that would make sense.
Who the heck NEEDS his present recordings?
Quote from: sound67 on October 21, 2007, 02:22:16 PM
If some of the proceeds went into sponsoring classical music in the developing countries, that would make sense.
That's a bit rich, considering ... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4457278.stm)
I actually caught the last movement of the Mahler on the radio this morning. I was amazed by how full of life the recording was. I was very anxious to hear who the performers were. When I heard it was Dudamel and his youth symphony, I was amazed. I don't think I would have liked it as much if I would have known who was playing.
I still don't need another Mahler recording, and I think this performance my be spectacular initially but not after many revisits, but I do complement Dudamel.
Quote from: Catison on October 21, 2007, 04:20:06 PMWhen I heard it was Dudamel and his youth symphony, I was amazed.
The point is, in the field of Mahler recordings it's not competitive. Were DG a charity fund, then it would make sense to charge full price for it. But they aren't.
Thomas
Quote from: sound67 on October 21, 2007, 06:16:10 PM
The point is, in the field of Mahler recordings it's not competitive. Were DG a charity fund, then it would make sense to charge full price for it. But they aren't.
Thomas
But what's your point? Are you complaining because you want it and its too expensive for you? The solution then is to not buy it until it shows up at BRO.
The problem is not with Dudamel.
The problem is with Deutsche Grammophon.
If you have a hypertalented orchestra of Venezuelan youngsters, led by an equally hypertalented Venezuelan youngster, why do you have them record music by dead Germans?? If DG was recording Dudamel & Co. in Latin American/Spanish works, the results would be astounding (consider their YouTube video of the Mambo from West Side Story). What they need to do is start covering Ginastera, C. Chavez, and music like that - in other words, what they need to do is dump DG and sign with a real record company that's committed to the kind of music they would really be able to make a reputation playing.
Quote from: brianrein on October 21, 2007, 09:01:20 PM
If DG was recording Dudamel & Co. in Latin American/Spanish works, the results would be astounding (consider their YouTube video of the Mambo from West Side Story).
That's Latin Amertican or Spanish music??
Last time I looked, it was written by Leonard Bernstein. I "think" he was a young jewish boy from the Boston area. Wasn't he??
Quote from: Iago on October 22, 2007, 12:40:13 AM
That's Latin Amertican or Spanish music??
Last time I looked, it was written by Leonard Bernstein. I "think" he was a young jewish boy from the Boston area. Wasn't he??
That was an utterly childish and ignorant comment to make Iago. We all know what Brian meant. ;D
Howard
*I absolutely agree with Brian's ideas.
Quote from: sound67 on October 21, 2007, 02:22:16 PM
That doesn't excuse DGG for charging people full price for inferior recordings. If some of the proceeds went into sponsoring classical music in the developing countries, that would make sense.
Who the heck NEEDS his present recordings?
Lighten up some - besides, nobody NEEDS any recording.
Quote from: brianrein on October 21, 2007, 09:01:20 PM
The problem is not with Dudamel.
The problem is with Deutsche Grammophon.
If you have a hypertalented orchestra of Venezuelan youngsters, led by an equally hypertalented Venezuelan youngster, why do you have them record music by dead Germans?? If DG was recording Dudamel & Co. in Latin American/Spanish works, the results would be astounding (consider their YouTube video of the Mambo from West Side Story). What they need to do is start covering Ginastera, C. Chavez, and music like that - in other words, what they need to do is dump DG and sign with a real record company that's committed to the kind of music they would really be able to make a reputation playing.
I agree with the first part of this, not the second. The problem is indeed DG, not Dudamel. But the repertoire isn't the issue.
Quote from: Renfield on October 21, 2007, 02:08:54 PM
I also found that review very accurate. However, Dudamel is a fantastically talented conductor, in my opinion: he's just not ready for something like Mahler's 5th, yet.
This is plain nonsense. I heard him conduct Mahler 1 with the CSO and went back for the Tuesday concert just to make sure Saturday wasn't a one off. It was easily one of the best Mahler performances I have ever heard. It was intelligent, convincing, and very personal. Dudamel has no shortage of experience or lack of understanding for the work. I just don't think he records well in the studio. He is clearly a guy who lives off the electricity of the moment and needs a live audience around him. The DG Beethoven is so overly controlled that it sucks the life out of the performance. This is not how Dudamel sounds live. I presume the Mahler 5 suffers from the same problem (haven't heard it yet). I don't know why they don't record him live.
Quote from: hautbois on October 22, 2007, 08:06:10 AM
That was an utterly childish and ignorant comment to make Iago. We all know what Brian meant. ;D
Howard
*I absolutely agree with Brian's ideas.
My comment is neither childish, nor ignorant. Merely, factual.
Quote from: O Mensch on October 22, 2007, 09:13:51 AM
I agree with the first part of this, not the second. The problem is indeed DG, not Dudamel. But the repertoire isn't the issue.
This is plain nonsense. I heard him conduct Mahler 1 with the CSO and went back for the Tuesday concert just to make sure Saturday wasn't a one off. It was easily one of the best Mahler performances I have ever heard. It was intelligent, convincing, and very personal. Dudamel has no shortage of experience or lack of understanding for the work. I just don't think he records well in the studio. He is clearly a guy who lives off the electricity of the moment and needs a live audience around him. The DG Beethoven is so overly controlled that it sucks the life out of the performance. This is not how Dudamel sounds live. I presume the Mahler 5 suffers from the same problem (haven't heard it yet). I don't know why they don't record him live.
There is no doubt when it comes to Dudamel's talent and ability as a conductor. No matter how impressive the conductor though, it is simply ALMOST impossible for a non professional youth symphony to sustain the energy, intensity, and stamina necessary to pull off a giant like Mahler's 5th. Barshai's German Youth was clearly an exception, but bear in mind that the particular 'youth' orchestra had a huge portion of full time conservatory students enrolled in it. Getting through the first movement is already miraculous considering that KIDS play in Dudamel's youth band. The problem really is repertoire because i don't see any artistic value in recording ANOTHER Mahler 5th which turns out to be rather mediocre. Dudamel is a big name nowadays and there is no doubt that DG plans to make a profit out of that.
Seriously, one buys a record expecting it to sound good and have re-listening value and not because it has Dudamel's face printed all over it right? So if a record is bad (I don't believe the Mahler 5th recording is bad, it just doesn't stand out), it's bad, whoever is conducting or performing, and if it was a known fact early on, they shouldn't have released it since it won't sell and will leave a bad impression towards people who are dissapointed with it.
My point is...contrary to what i have mentioned before, it doesn't matter what repertoire they record and release, as long as it is worth buying. We have enough bad recordings in the market to throw into the GMG bin. ;D
Howard
Quote from: Renfield on October 21, 2007, 02:08:54 PM
I also found that review very accurate. However, Dudamel is a fantastically talented conductor, in my opinion: he's just not ready for something like Mahler's 5th, yet.
Thank you for the nuance! 8)
Quote from: Cuddles
That's Latin Amertican or Spanish music??
Last time I looked, it was written by Leonard Bernstein. I "think" he was a young jewish boy from the Boston area. Wasn't he??
I believe that's right.
And I
think (or, "think") that the Mambo is a Cuban musical form and dance style, and therefore the young Jewish boy from the Boston area wrote that number in the musical as Latin American, and not as Klezmer. Didn't he??
Bernstein was born in Lawrence, which is more Lowell area, than Boston area, probably. But call that a detail.
Bernstein did attend Boston Latin as a boy; so "Boston area" is not a serious faux pas.
O Mensch, have you heard the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra with LAP at iTunes? Recorded live from his January concert that nailed him the big job...
It's good, a solid, warm performance, though not really "great". It's a shame they didn't release the rest of that concert - a fine Rach 3, and an absolutely fantastic Kodaly Galanta Dances that totally caught fire, that tells me he's got the goods but I do think he's better with some music than others. With firey, rhythmic stuff, he seems to be in his element (coincidentally, the kind of thing they've gotten used to in LA) - but in other things, I'm just not so sure yet. Not that I'm writing him off, but I think he needs to mature.
I mean, any young conductor does, come on - but there is such pressure from record companies to get them recorded in X and Y "big literature" right off the bat, I personally think they are pushed into recording material that they aren't (completely) ready for. To conduct it in concert - that's one thing, that's great for young conductors - but to spend the money to put down an interpretation and performance for all of posterity and then market it like crazy, I just can't see it. But with Dudamel, it's done because DG knows he is, and will be in the future, a cash cow.
The deeper, calmer, more complex stuff (such as Mahler 5 Adagietto), not that he can't do it, but he's going to need more time to figure out what he wants to accomplish with the music. I personally think coming from the South American culture he's does, that he's a bit further removed from the European tradition, and needs to just delve more into the music and the culture it comes from. For example, something like Sibelius, that type of inward looking music I think right now gives the extrovert Dudamel a lot of trouble, the Sibelius 5th he stood in for Jarvi at the Proms 2005 was honestly r e a l l y bad. As in just wrong interpretationally, totally missing the point of what Sibelius was trying to convey. An interpreter has to be aware of where the music comes from and the composer's unique musical language, first and foremost, to fashion a convincing interpretation.
I'm still a little mystifed as to why Dudamel is so salivated over, sure he's got charisma and talent (though as a female I can't personally add looks to that, sorry), but there are a ton of other talented young conductors who do as well - why aren't they getting the same kind of press? Mostly the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra flash factor, I would suppose. As great as all that is, I would rate more highly his contemporaries Yannick Nezet-Seguin, who's turning heads with fine recordings of towering Bruckner symphonies, and Mikko Franck, working diligently in the music of his countrymen.
A well-considered post which was a pleasure to read, thank you, Greta!
Greta,
Good post. I don't think Dudamel is overhyped as far as his talent is concerned. Sure, he needs to still grow into some repertoire. But the Mahler 1 I heard him do with the CSO was nothing short of spellbinding (my review here (http://tonicblotter.blogspot.com/2007/04/update.html)). Really one of the finest Mahlers I have ever heard, and I don't say that lightly having just heard the 6th with Haitink on Saturday, which was stunning (review will follow). I also thought his Dvorak 9th with the NDR from the Pope's birthday concert was excellent. But Dudamel's performance with the CSO did show what he can do with a virtuoso orchestra, as opposed to his Venezuelan youth orchestra. So, hautbois has a point there. I'm not going to go into detail now, because I don't have the time (and still have work to do), but the hype has less to do with Dudamel's artistry. I don't doubt he's got the goods and with a great orchestra he can do great things, live at least. The record hype goes towards conquering new audiences. A lot of people who go to hear Dudamel and subsequently buy his CDs would not have gone to a classical concert at all. So, the question "do we need another Mahler 5?" is not really relevant. This is not supposed to be a new reference recording for hardcore collectors. The audience is a different one. I have elaborated more extenisvely on this subject here in the context of reviewing Dudamel's Beethoven CD (http://tonicblotter.blogspot.com/2007/06/why-record-at-all.html).
Just got out from what I think will probably be considered an historic concert at Carnegie Hall: the debut of Gustavo Dudamel and the Simón Bolívar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela. The program was frankly, conservative:
Berlioz: Le carnaval romain Overture
Chopin: Piano Concerto No. 2 (with Emanuel Ax)
Beethoven: Symphony No. 5
(Small beef: so why didn't he play the complete Bernstein Symphonic Dances from West Side Story and the Mahler Fifth Symphony that he's done elsewhere? OK, end of rant.)
The Berlioz and Beethoven were probably the finest versions of those pieces I have ever heard (and I've heard excellent ones of each just in the last few weeks). I wasn't sure why they did the Chopin, that doesn't really show off what they can do, but in a sense it did: it demonstrated how beautifully the ensemble can remain slightly in the background to show off a soloist, and they framed Emanuel Ax in the best possible light.
After the Beethoven the lights dimmed, the group donned its Venezuelan flag jackets, and did three more pieces: two Latin American works I'd never heard that were sensational, and the "Mambo" from West Side Story. The crowd went absolutely wild: about as close to that of a rock concert audience as any classical concert I've attended. They would have brought out Dudamel many more times until he and the concertmaster finally turned and led the group offstage.
I must say, I think all the hype is justified, and Los Angeles is going to have some extraordinary music when he arrives.
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on November 11, 2007, 03:32:14 PM
Just got out from what I think will probably be considered an historic concert at Carnegie Hall: the debut of Gustavo Dudamel and the Simón Bolívar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela. The program was frankly, conservative:
Berlioz: Le carnaval romain Overture
Chopin: Piano Concerto No. 2 (with Emanuel Ax)
Beethoven: Symphony No. 5
(Small beef: so why didn't he play the complete Bernstein Symphonic Dances from West Side Story and the Mahler Fifth Symphony that he's done elsewhere? OK, end of rant.)
The Berlioz and Beethoven were probably the finest versions of those pieces I have ever heard (and I've heard excellent ones of each just in the last few weeks). I wasn't sure why they did the Chopin, that doesn't really show off what they can do, but in a sense it did: it demonstrated how beautifully the ensemble can remain slightly in the background to show off a soloist, and they framed Emanuel Ax in the best possible light.
After the Beethoven the lights dimmed, the group donned its Venezuelan flag jackets, and did three more pieces: two Latin American works I'd never heard that were sensational, and the "Mambo" from West Side Story. The crowd went absolutely wild: about as close to that of a rock concert audience as any classical concert I've attended. They would have brought out Dudamel many more times until he and the concertmaster finally turned and led the group offstage.
I must say, I think all the hype is justified, and Los Angeles is going to have some extraordinary music when he arrives.
--Bruce
I'm sure you've heard the Beethoven 5th under a variety of conductors. I'm guessing you heard it under Bernstein, Solti and Masur. Please be more specific regarding Dudamels performance in contrast to those (or to others that you may have seen)
Thank You
Quote from: Iago on November 11, 2007, 05:56:45 PM
I'm sure you've heard the Beethoven 5th under a variety of conductors. I'm guessing you heard it under Bernstein, Solti and Masur. Please be more specific regarding Dudamels performance in contrast to those (or to others that you may have seen)
Thank You
Why don't you try listening yourself? And why not compare Dudamel's Beethoven 5th to Kleiber(s), Klemperer, Furtwangler etc?
Quote from: Iago on November 11, 2007, 05:56:45 PM
I'm sure you've heard the Beethoven 5th under a variety of conductors. I'm guessing you heard it under Bernstein, Solti and Masur. Please be more specific regarding Dudamels performance in contrast to those (or to others that you may have seen)
Thank You
Like Iago, I too would like to hear more. Coming from you, that praise is lofty indeed!
By the way, readers of the New York Times today will discover a truly wonderful photograph of the orchestra, with somebody's trombone flying through the air overhead ;D
Quote from: brianrein on November 12, 2007, 01:45:09 PM
By the way, readers of the New York Times today will discover a truly wonderful photograph of the orchestra, with somebody's trombone flying through the air overhead ;D
The online version only has this:
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/11/12/nyregion/Dudamel190.jpg)
I would have loved to have seen Dudamel with SBYO live! ;D The whole youth orchestra initiative is fantastic, the Verbier Festival Orchestra sent us into orbit here last night. I wish we got more visiting orchestras down to Houston, to cover the south as well as north, east and west.
I wanted to add here, the SBYO program I am totally in awe of, I think it's an incredible achievement on his part, and all of those involved in bringing it to fruition. What he has done with them, is clearly work of the finest caliber. And because I think he's very talented, I do hope his talent isn't exploited in any way.
I definitely look forward to seeing him mature, I might end up in L.A. myself after school, and it will be fascinating and exciting to see how he develops there.
(O Mensch, great blog post - I agree with a lot of that. Dudamel/SBYO are tremendously inspiring for young people. To hear what they've achieved, they realize, you know what, I can do that too, which is very powerful for aspiring musicians.
A grad student friend of mine, clarinet, met a couple of clarinettists at a workshop that currently, or have played in SBYO, and she said she was awed by their dedication and passion. They practice a lot, a whole lot, and were great people, they just simply love what they do. Instilling that love for music in young people is priceless, and already is a legacy for Dudamel.)
What distinguished the Beethoven Fifth was not only the precision of the playing--unusual for a group of some 200 musicians--but the sheer joy of music making, both from Dudamel and from the ensemble. (And some of these are as young as 14.) There was never a moment taken for granted; they played that symphony as if it were the last performance any of them would ever do, and it had that kind of "sense of occasion" with it. While the orchestra won't be mistaken for "one of the best in the world," the overall performance, driven by commitment and passion, to my ears won't be equalled any time soon. Just two weeks ago I heard a very, very fine reading of this piece with Dohnányi leading the New York Philharmonic, and as excellent as this was, Dudamel's reading was even more compelling.
The entire two days were marked by this same nonstop "awakened" feeling, as if Dudamel and his ensemble had just discovered these works and wanted to show us how great they are. It was a very moving, even inspirational two days.
On last night's concert, the Bartók Concerto for Orchestra had some moments of rhythmic indecisiveness--just minor coordination problems that reminded you of what a difficult piece it really is--but again, it reached out and grabbed you by the throat as few performances do. I'm hearing the Berlin Philharmonic this week, although they will no doubt be marvelous in many ways (they're playing a lot of contemporary music this time) in one sense they have a hard act to follow.
Steve Smith has good comments about last night, with which I largely agree, on his blog. (http://nightafternight.blogs.com/night_after_night/2007/11/far-beyond-driv.html)
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on November 13, 2007, 11:05:15 AM
There was never a moment taken for granted; they played that symphony as if it were the last performance any of them would ever do, and it had that kind of "sense of occasion" with it.
Quote from: bhodges on November 13, 2007, 11:05:15 AM
The entire two days were marked by this same nonstop "awakened" feeling, as if Dudamel and his ensemble had just discovered these works and wanted to show us how great they are. It was a very moving, even inspirational two days.
Very good points,
Bruce ........
Quote from: Greta on October 22, 2007, 10:02:11 AM
O Mensch, have you heard the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra with LAP at iTunes? Recorded live from his January concert that nailed him the big job...
It's good, a solid, warm performance, though not really "great". It's a shame they didn't release the rest of that concert - a fine Rach 3, and an absolutely fantastic Kodaly Galanta Dances that totally caught fire, that tells me he's got the goods but I do think he's better with some music than others. With firey, rhythmic stuff, he seems to be in his element (coincidentally, the kind of thing they've gotten used to in LA) - but in other things, I'm just not so sure yet. Not that I'm writing him off, but I think he needs to mature.
Greta, prayers have been answered:
here (http://symphonycast.publicradio.org/programs/2007/10/22/) is the entire concert, thanks to SymphonyCast.com. :D
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on November 20, 2007, 11:59:02 AM
Greta, prayers have been answered: here (http://symphonycast.publicradio.org/programs/2007/10/22/) is the entire concert, thanks to SymphonyCast.com. :D
--Bruce
We demand a video, not mere audio .........