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The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: alkan on October 23, 2007, 05:45:23 AM

Title: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: alkan on October 23, 2007, 05:45:23 AM
For no rational reason I feel a sudden urge to explore the symphonic world of Havergal Brian.    I believe that most, if not all, of his symphonies are recorded on the Naxos label.

Could anyone be so kind as to recommend a CD or two as a good starting point  (with a bit of explanation for the choice) ?

Thanks in advance .....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 23, 2007, 07:19:22 AM
Quote from: alkan on October 23, 2007, 05:45:23 AM
Could anyone be so kind as to recommend a CD or two as a good starting point  (with a bit of explanation for the choice) ?
Thanks in advance .....

Mackerras/Royal Liverpool Symphonies 7 and 31 EMI

Groves/Royal Liverpool Symphonies 8 and 9 EMI

Lenard/ CSR Bratislava Symphony #1 D minor "Gothic" Naxos

Fredman/LPO Symphonies #6 and 16 (due for CD release early next year, I belive) Lyrita


These provide examples of the early, middle and late periods and, except for the Te Deum of the Gothic, don't present any thorny issues or listening difficulties. They are also magnificent performances.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: Harry on October 23, 2007, 09:28:30 AM
And there is the wonderful performance on the Helios label, of the third right, very good that one. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 23, 2007, 09:37:41 AM
All of these are great recommendations - forced to pick one it would be the twofer including both the first and the second of the discs mentioned above - no 7, 8, 9 and 31. At the very least 7 and 8 are among any 'best of' Brian list, and the other two are almost as fine, 9 especially. 8 is my favourite Brian symph, as I've said elsewhere many times. IMO one of the finest symphonies of the century, with a form all its own and an incredible  directness.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: alkan on October 24, 2007, 02:23:18 AM
Thanks to everyone for their recommendations.       I had already put the Helios 3rd symphony in my shopping cart, but I missed the two-fer which looks very interesting.     
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 24, 2007, 03:02:39 AM
Quote from: alkan on October 24, 2007, 02:23:18 AM
Thanks to everyone for their recommendations.       I had already put the Helios 3rd symphony in my shopping cart, but I missed the two-fer which looks very interesting.     

Absolutely essential. Go for it.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: Hector on October 24, 2007, 03:19:00 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 24, 2007, 03:02:39 AM
Absolutely essential. Go for it.

Sarge

I'll drink to that ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: Montpellier on October 24, 2007, 03:34:28 AM
The big Gothic Symphony (No 1, formerly No 2) is the place to start if only because it puts Brian's other symphonic work in context.   It's a vast work with some interesting orchestral features like (if I remember rightly) an octet of clarinets including a contrabass).

You may be interested in an article about Brian.

http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/societies/brian.html

Edit: And there's this that gives some idea of the size of the orchestra.  Octet of clarinets?  No, it's 11 clarinets.  6 Oboes (inc bass oboe) + 2 cor anglais.....?   Several choirs?   

I don't think he wrote another like this!   
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: alkan on October 24, 2007, 03:52:56 AM
Thanks for the further replies.

For the Gothic symphony I think there is only the Naxos version available ..... correct ??
Any heard it?     Any comments ?

Thanks
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 24, 2007, 05:03:51 AM
Quote from: alkan on October 24, 2007, 03:52:56 AM
Thanks for the further replies.

For the Gothic symphony I think there is only the Naxos version available ..... correct ??
Any heard it?     Any comments ?

Thanks

All we Brian fanatics have heard it. Yes, it's the only one available currently. It's far better than you'd expect from these forces and I'm quite happy with it (although fervently praying that someone like Mackerras will record it someday too). The sound quality is surprisingly good if a bit strident in some parts of the Te Deum. Bottlom line: it's another essential purchase if only to hear that mind-blowing third movement.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: alkan on October 24, 2007, 05:12:21 AM
Thanks Sarge,
I can see that Mr. Brian is going to cost me a bunch ....... 32 symphonies to get through !
Out of curiosity, why is the 3rd mvmt of the Gothic mindblowing?     Is it purely the size of the orchestral army employed, or is there more to it?

By the way,  understand that the composer's agent told him to change his name so that people would take him more seriously.
His real name is Brian Havergal .....     ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: vandermolen on October 24, 2007, 09:31:58 AM
Quote from: alkan on October 24, 2007, 05:12:21 AM


By the way,  understand that the composer's agent told him to change his name so that people would take him more seriously.
His real name is Brian Havergal .....     ;)

I have a friend called Brian Williams who told me that he was going to change his name to "Williams Brian" after I had introduced him to HB's music  ;D

Personally I'd go for Symphony 8 as an entry point into HB's music. Look out for the Lyrita recording of symphonies 6 and 16 due out early next year. That is a great disc.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: Montpellier on October 24, 2007, 09:41:31 AM
Quote from: alkan on October 24, 2007, 05:12:21 AM
Is it purely the size of the orchestral army employed, or is there more to it?

Yes, Part 2: a huge orchestra with some off-stage performers, a children's choir and a double choir.   "(in summary: 32 wind, 24 on stage brass, 24 off stage brass, 6 timpanists, 18 percussion, 4 keyboards and harps, 82 strings - total orchestra c190 players, plus adult choir of min 500 [assumes largely professionals], children's choir of 100, 4 soloists = c800)"

Part 1: c40 mins. Part 2: c 1 1/4 hours
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: BachQ on October 24, 2007, 09:49:59 AM
Quote from: alkan on October 23, 2007, 05:45:23 AM
I believe that most, if not all, of his symphonies are recorded on the Naxos label.

Is that true?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: johnQpublic on October 24, 2007, 10:12:40 AM
Stop before you start!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 25, 2007, 04:08:15 AM
Quote from: D Minor on October 24, 2007, 09:49:59 AM
Is that true?

Depends on how you read the sentence, I guess. Marco Polo/Naxos is the company that's recorded the most Brian but they haven't completed the symphony cycle (and it's not looking likely that they ever will). They still have 21 symphonies to go and it's been over ten years since their last release! They've done 1, 2, 4, 11, 12, 15, 17, 18, 20, 25 and 32.

EMI recorded 7, 8, 9 and 31. Unicorn recorded 10 and 21. Lyrita 6 and 16. Hyperion 3. CBS 22.

5, 13, 14, 19, 23, 24, 26, 27, 28, 29 and 30 are still awaiting first recordings.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 25, 2007, 04:31:46 AM
Quote from: alkan on October 24, 2007, 05:12:21 AM
Out of curiosity, why is the 3rd mvmt of the Gothic mindblowing?

Here's a quote from MacDonald's magnificent three-volume The Symphonies of Havergal Brian which partially explains why it's so mindblowing: he describes here the end of the Vivace third movement (and the end of the symphony's first Part):

"The music heaves like a plain on which great armies are embattled. Side-drum and upper woodwind beat out a manic pounding rhythm against which strings play a tough ostinato. Bassoons and tubas make a bass of the "saurian" theme in altered rhythm, while the rest of the brass have the lions's share of glory in a vast series of canonic entries. Trumpets and cornets ring out proudly above the storm, with a note of victory, a sense of triumph and exultation (which must have been Brian's own as he came to the end of this superb movement). The music soars in boundless confidence; harps, xylophone and organ enter with more ostinati; and suddenly it is the climax of the Part I. Brian flings the music back into the home key of D minor with a cadence of astonishing boldness:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gmgpictures/Brian.jpg)

From C major to D minor by way of F sharp, all in three triads: it is the sensational juxtaposition of C and F sharp that is so exhilarating [and shocking, terrifying--Sarge]. Brian has discovered his full powers. He can stride from one end of the tonal universe to the other in a split second: he can make a single cadence bear the dramatic weight of an entire movement. This is the victory of imagination over form.

Back in D minor the music rises to a pinnacle of grandeur before all the instruments hammer home the chord of D, fortissimo, only to be shut out with heart-stopping suddeness. There is a pause, then quietness--a high tremolo in the violins, a soft meditative glow from the bassoons, barely audible timpani to assure us the world is still spinning. Part I of the Gothic ends in a serenely spaced D major triad, adorned with harp arpeggios."


The orchestration too is wild: like the freakish piccolo glissandos that are echoed by....the tuba! And I love the ominous sounding allusion to Schubert's Unfinished.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 25, 2007, 04:41:20 AM
Quote from: alkan on October 24, 2007, 05:12:21 AM
By the way,  understand that the composer's agent told him to change his name so that people would take him more seriously.
His real name is Brian Havergal .....     ;)

I was watching a documentary about Kurtag and was amused by the Hungarian natives referring to Bartok and Kurtag as Bartok Bela and Kurtag György  ;D  I knew Hungarians put family name first but it was the first time I'd actually heard it spoken that way.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: Lethevich on October 25, 2007, 04:42:36 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 25, 2007, 04:08:15 AM
5, 13, 14, 19, 23, 24, 26, 27, 28, 29 and 30 are still awaiting first recordings.

I have mp3s of (presumably) a live broadcast of #27 with Mackerras and the Philharmonia which I could upload somewhere, if anybody wants. Only 192 bitrate, but that's above radio quality.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 25, 2007, 05:02:33 AM
Quote from: Lethe on October 25, 2007, 04:42:36 AM
I have mp3s of (presumably) a live broadcast of #27 with Mackerras and the Philharmonia which I could upload somewhere, if anybody wants. Only 192 bitrate, but that's above radio quality.

I want....I WANT! Please.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: Lethevich on October 25, 2007, 05:09:32 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 25, 2007, 05:02:33 AM
I want....I WANT! Please.

Havergal Brian - Symphony No.27 (Mackerras/Philharmonia) (http://www.mediafire.com/?00xzz1any0i)

Credit to whoever it was on Soulseek that I got it from a few years ago (nick: LuigiNono) - I think they are a GMG user but I forget who.

Seperate movements for 56k users:

I. Lento - Allegro giocoso e marcato sempre - Moderato (http://www.mediafire.com/?3tswn1ngjmw)
II. Lento ma non troppo (http://www.mediafire.com/?6zx4ct4sgjj)
III. Allegro con anima (http://www.mediafire.com/?1kbzeqsbnhh)
Title: Thanks Sarge .......
Post by: alkan on October 25, 2007, 05:22:39 AM
......   for the description of the Gothic 3rd movement.
How can I not buy it ?????
It's amazing what you can purchase for 8 euros and 37 cents    (Amazon price)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: lukeottevanger on October 25, 2007, 05:27:52 AM
Pretty please, in fact. Oh boy..... :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 25, 2007, 05:46:05 AM
Quote from: Lethe on October 25, 2007, 05:09:32 AM
Havergal Brian - Symphony No.27 (Mackerras/Philharmonia) (http://www.mediafire.com/?00xzz1any0i)

Credit to whoever it was on Soulseek who I got it from a year or two ago (nick: LuigiNono) - I think they are a GMG user but I forget who.


Downloaded successfully. Thank you! Much obliged  :)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: not edward on October 25, 2007, 06:08:55 AM
Quote from: Lethe on October 25, 2007, 05:09:32 AM
Havergal Brian - Symphony No.27 (Mackerras/Philharmonia) (http://www.mediafire.com/?00xzz1any0i)

Credit to whoever it was on Soulseek that I got it from a few years ago (nick: LuigiNono) - I think they are a GMG user but I forget who.

Seperate movements for 56k users:

I. Lento - Allegro giocoso e marcato sempre - Moderato (http://www.mediafire.com/?3tswn1ngjmw)
II. Lento ma non troppo (http://www.mediafire.com/?6zx4ct4sgjj)
III. Allegro con anima (http://www.mediafire.com/?1kbzeqsbnhh)
Excellent, thanks.

I've not been on SoulSeek for quite a while (mostly because I don't use Windows much these days) but LuigiNono was always a handy source of interesting material when I was. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: Lethevich on October 25, 2007, 06:18:09 AM
Quote from: edward on October 25, 2007, 06:08:55 AM
Excellent, thanks.

I've not been on SoulSeek for quite a while (mostly because I don't use Windows much these days) but LuigiNono was always a handy source of interesting material when I was. :)

In the end his queues became too long to be able to get anything -- for me anyway, I was unable to leave my PC on for days at a time to reach the front of the queues.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 15, 2007, 08:29:55 AM
I'm only discovering this thread now - I just want to thank Lethe for uploading No 27. I know the work, I have it on cassette, but the sound is very bad. In spite of that, I still think this symphony is among the most powerful of Brian's very late works. There is a fury at work there that is quite unnerving. But you also get passages of visionary beauty. Quite a heady mixture.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: gmstudio on November 15, 2007, 12:01:30 PM
Yes, thank you to Lethe for posting the symphony.  I've been listening to it all afternoon...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 15, 2007, 12:43:55 PM
So, gmstudio, what do you make of it?...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: gmstudio on November 16, 2007, 06:17:45 AM
Angluar, disjointed, exciting, but still tonal and accessible.  Even the "slow" movement was a rush.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: Lethevich on November 16, 2007, 06:19:07 AM
Quote from: gmstudio on November 16, 2007, 06:17:45 AM
Angluar, disjointed, exciting, but still tonal and accessible.  Even the "slow" movement was a rush.

I found it possibly the most restless sounding symphony I have yet to hear, it's quite strange :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 16, 2007, 06:35:27 AM
"Angular, disjointed, exciting, restless"... It is characteristic of most, if not all the late symphonies - Brian was a very old man when he wrote them, and it seems as if he wants to get into the thick of things as soon as is musically possible. No time to lose! And no bar to waste...

The late symphonies are full of counterpoint - many strands of thought going on at the same time. Sometimes there is quiet, an expansion where things can breathe and rest. But then Brian is away again to the next explosion, to the next revelation.

And to me it all sounds perfectly natural.

I love it.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: gmstudio on November 16, 2007, 06:46:22 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on November 16, 2007, 06:35:27 AM

And to me it all sounds perfectly natural.


yeah, that's exactly it...it was very unlike most other "modernish" sounding works by other composers from around this time...every note seemed to have meaning and a purpose, both melodically and harmonically...I'm listening again today at work, admittedly as background music...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 16, 2007, 06:54:08 AM
Quote from: gmstudio on November 16, 2007, 06:46:22 AM
I'm listening again today at work, admittedly as background music...

Brian as apocalyptic muzak, that's a first...  ;)  (Not really - just to get into a creative mood, I have often (ab)used Brian in the same way...)

Btw - which Brian symphonies do you know?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: gmstudio on November 16, 2007, 07:21:43 AM
Just this and the 3rd.  I have the "Gothic" on order at the moment.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 16, 2007, 07:35:36 AM
Wow! You happy virgin...

If you really start to like Brian, don't forget to get hold of the twofer (EMI) with symphonies 7,8,9, and 31. Those will extend your insight into him immeasurably. Then you'll hear how No. 31 inhabits the same sound-world as No. 27. And you'll get to know the extraordinary symphony that set the whole 'Brian revival' going in the 'sixties and 'seventies - Symphony No. 8. If Robert Simpson hadn't loved this at first sight (reading the manuscript Brian had sent to the BBC) in 1954 (iirc), you and I wouldn't have been writing about Brian now...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: gmstudio on November 16, 2007, 07:41:54 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on November 16, 2007, 07:35:36 AM
Wow! You happy virgin...

If you really start to like Brian, don't forget to get hold of the twofer (EMI) with symphonies 7,8,9, and 31.

Sadly, out of stock at Amazon at the moment...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: gmstudio on November 16, 2007, 07:46:05 AM
Turns out my library has #'s 4, 12, 17, & 32...so those are on reserve at the moment...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian Symphonies ..... where to start ?
Post by: S709 on January 13, 2008, 05:32:44 PM
Quote from: Lethe on October 25, 2007, 06:18:09 AM
In the end his queues became too long to be able to get anything -- for me anyway, I was unable to leave my PC on for days at a time to reach the front of the queues.

Hehe, I just noticed this by accident... I am the user in question!
I can always create "queue bypasses", or send by Pando, or such... anyone can ask. I am always happy to make this stuff accessible.