what is?
finale of Tchaikovsky's 6th sym -- after all those cathartic screams, right at the end, the orchestra lets out two deep, all-too-human sighs. That moment is about as sad and personal as music can be. Really captured perfectly in this Kondrashin recording, not overplayed, just like human sighs.
May be cliché, but Gorecki 3.
Quote from: gmstudio on November 03, 2007, 05:21:06 PM
May be cliché, but Gorecki 3.
Yes very cliche indeed.
Quote from: sidoze on November 03, 2007, 05:19:54 PM
what is?
finale of Tchaikovsky's 6th sym -- after all those cathartic screams, right at the end, the orchestra lets out two deep, all-too-human sighs. That moment is about as sad and personal as music can be. Really captured perfectly in this Kondrashin recording, not overplayed, just like human sighs.
Strikes me as bit over-the-top.
My vote goes to Gustav Mahler's
Songs on the Death of Children.
I'll go with Chopin's posthumous C sharp minor nocturne, as recorded by Wladyslaw "The Pianist" Szpilman in 1948.
In addition will second the Tchaikovsky, and award an honorable mention to the flute solo in the finale of Brahms' Fourth.
And, just because Gorecki's Third became popular doesn't mean it's cliched! :)
Quote from: sidoze on November 03, 2007, 05:19:54 PM
finale of Tchaikovsky's 6th sym -- after all those cathartic screams, right at the end, the orchestra lets out two deep, all-too-human sighs. That moment is about as sad and personal as music can be. Really captured perfectly in this Kondrashin recording, not overplayed, just like human sighs.
i agree
This kind of depends on whether you mean music which sounds sad and which creates this kind of emotional response from the listener, or music which is designed by the composer to reflect sadness. Although the Pathetique would fall into the latter, for me it doesn't really work for the former as much as -say - the second movement of Vaughan Williams' 2nd symphony or 'Lento' by Howard Skempton.
Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet is sad music.
The obvious one for me is the "Lacrimosa" from Mozart's Requiem.
Mahler's Kindertotenlieder; wide swaths of the Adagio of Mahler's 9th; the slow middle section of Chopin's first Scherzo (in the right hands). Schubert wrote a good amount of such music - some of those lieder, don't listen if you want to smile.
I forgot Barber's "Adagio". Some will once again call it cliche, but I was fortunate to stumble on it only relatively recently. It has a feeling of a man trying to find his soul, trying to discover a lost self, as he grows more and more desperate and eventually gives up.
...or maybe it's just me ;D
Off the top of my head:
Mahler 9, for sure, but I'd almost go for the first movement--at least in a performance which emphasises the Lebewohl theme (CSO/Boulez for example).
The closing bars of the Adagio of Bruckner 9...absolutely desolate.
The first movement of Schubert's D960, at least as played in the Richterian manner, not to mention a lot of his later lieder.
Pretty much the whole of Shostakovich's last quartet.
The funeral scene in act 3 of Schnittke's Peer Gynt. Plus the slow movement of the 8th symphony.
The second part of Pettersson's 6th (that's around 30 minutes of the saddest music i've ever heard).
Quote from: sidoze on November 03, 2007, 05:19:54 PM
what is?
finale of Tchaikovsky's 6th sym
Yes very sad but i think i can beat it in the same symphony.
About 13 min. into the 1st movement right after, the timpani fades and then the strings almost cry out and the brass answers. And this call and answer lasts for about 1 min and 30 seconds. Every time i hear it i shiver and want it to end because there is so much despair, yet it is sublime. To me without a doubt it is the saddest minute and a half of music ever written.
Quote from: hornteacher on November 04, 2007, 05:17:51 AM
The obvious one for me is the "Lacrimosa" from Mozart's Requiem.
Precisely so!
Also "Dido's Lament" (Purcell)
And some less obvious ones - obscure but very hard to beat:
Medtner's Funeral March
Th. Kirchner's 1st Legende Op 18, an extraordinary achievement for a minor composer.
Shall I go with the one I traditionally go with when this subject comes around? I think so:
Schnittke - Psalms of Repentance. Takes dolefulness/woe/lamenting etc. to new levels
The Four Last Songs- Richard Strauss
marvin
Quote from: Varg on November 04, 2007, 08:25:45 AM
The second part of Pettersson's 6th (that's around 30 minutes of the saddest music i've ever heard).
Spot on! And sad without being selfindulgent, which is a hard trick to pull, and which I think several of the works discussed in this thread are.
I'm surprised no one (sidoze especially) has mentioned Chopin's Fourth and Sixth Preludes - the latter even more so than the former. That Sixth Prelude conjures up images of a lonely, elderly man - perhaps living in a Paris apartment in some foreign language film noir - looking alternately at letters from a lover long lost, and at the rain-soaked cafe chairs that line the empty streets below his window. Attached to one of the letters, a faded photograph of a woman, taken many years ago in happier times. Very moving indeed. :'(
The resigned ending of Pettersson's 7th (after all the tumult and heartache and luminous beauty that have gone before it) and Barber's Adagio for Strings rank up there.
Quote from: Mark on November 04, 2007, 01:35:02 PM
I'm surprised no one (sidoze especially) has mentioned Chopin's Fourth and Sixth Preludes - the latter even more so than the former. That Sixth Prelude conjures up images of a lonely, elderly man - perhaps living in a Paris apartment in some foreign language film noir - looking alternately at letters from a lover long lost, and at the rain-soaked cafe chairs that line the empty streets below his window. Attached to one of the letters, a faded photograph of a woman, taken many years ago in happier times. Very moving indeed. :'(
haha a little too much detail there! :) Of course those preludes are sad, as are the second and bittersweet thirteenth and seventeenth preludes (you could say the twentieth too). Chopin in general is disconsolate like this, especially some of the waltzes and mazurkas. One of my favourite ones is Nocturne op. 62/2, but only played by Tipo or Pogorelich who turn it into a last dance and miserable dirge respectively (every other pianist dashes or stampedes through the central section which completely ruins it). This is what I'd call nostalgic sadness, which is also how I think of those two sighs at the end of Tchaikovsky's 6th. That's the sort of sadness I had in mind. Schnittke, Pettersson, I've heard those works but find them too miserable, almost suicidal (though there is a sort of suicidal nostalgic sadness like in Jerzy Petersburski's This is Our Last Sunday (Weary Sun, otherwise called the Suicide Tango, but that is far removed from the, let's say, earnestness of Schnittke and Pettersson).
On another note, this thread wasn't started for the purpose of giving negative opinions on the pieces mentioned. We all know that we're not all going to agree with each other, that some will seem overindulgent or banal. I just wanted to see which pieces people react to. Some obviously think of sadness as a much harsher feeling than I do (as mentioned above).
QuoteMahler's Kindertotenlieder; wide swaths of the Adagio of Mahler's 9th; the slow middle section of Chopin's first Scherzo (in the right hands). Schubert wrote a good amount of such music - some of those lieder, don't listen if you want to smile.
I agree with all these though the Kindertotenlieder is just a little too morbid :o I'd also mention Chopin's 4th ballade (Leo Sirota for sadness).
Quote from: erato on November 04, 2007, 01:11:34 PM
Spot on! And sad without being selfindulgent, which is a hard trick to pull, and which I think several of the works discussed in this thread are.
How can you tell when a work is selfindulgent... or what do you mean exactly with selfindulgent? I'm not very learned of english language; the only thing i see is that it means simple, technically uninteresting, not much going on... etc. Care to enlight me?
Quote from: sidoze on November 04, 2007, 02:03:11 PM
On another note, to the two winos who felt like taking an indirect swipe at some of the choices -- save it, this isn't the place, we all know we're not going to like all the choices and the thread was set up just to see which pieces people react to.
Here, here. >:(
Quote from: sidoze on November 04, 2007, 02:03:11 PM
On another note, to the two winos who felt like taking an indirect swipe at some of the choices
Hey! I haven't said anything
yet :P
Quote from: Peregrine on November 04, 2007, 02:06:27 PM
Hey! I haven't said anything yet
:P
Get back in that alley, bum! ;D
damn! I tried to edit that before you guys copied it! hahaha oh well :)
Quote from: Mark on November 04, 2007, 02:07:20 PM
Get back in that alley, bum! ;D
(http://www.modchipman.com/images/ebay/images/1113.jpg)
Quote from: Varg on November 04, 2007, 02:04:50 PM
How can you tell when a work is selfindulgent... or what do you mean exactly with selfindulgent? I'm not very learned of english language; the only thing i see is that it means simple, technically uninteresting, not much going on... etc. Care to enlight me?
Self indulgent is almost a feeling the listener can have if he or she feels the composer is putting in more than he should, whether that be emotion, orchestration or what have you.
If ever you listen to a peice and start rolling your eyes saying 'Oh, come on' that would be self indulgent.
I'll plum for Sospiri, Op.70/Elgar, as well as Schubert's D.940, D.960 and the andantino from D.959
Quote from: 12tone. on November 04, 2007, 02:13:13 PM
Self indulgent is almost a feeling the listener can have if he or she feels the composer is putting in more than he should, whether that be emotion, orchestration or what have you.
If ever you listen to a peice and start rolling your eyes saying 'Oh, come on' that would be self indulgent.
Good explanation for what I meant; of course what works does that is a personal "feeling" or how you experience a particular work, all I meant that Pettersson IMO avoids going "over the top" in a way I feel other composers don't. As in the difference between wallowing in one's misery vs. handling the misery and moving on.
I'll add Britten's 'Sentimental Saraband' from his Simple Symphony (for string quartet); it has a bittersweet quality that's at once sad and joyful in a nostalgic kind of way. There's even a section of it that gets quite stormy - it reminds me of part of the funeral march from Beethoven's 'Eroica' Symphony, another very sad piece under the right baton.
Quote from: Todd on November 04, 2007, 07:09:19 AM
Schubert wrote a good amount of such music - some of those lieder, don't listen if you want to smile.
Very much so, among the saddest is Gretchen am Spinrede.
Wonderful, but so sad. :(
I would cite Mahler's Adagietto from the Fifth and the Finale from his Ninth, or Schubert "Winterreise". But there's a very interesting definition I read about the latter, which describes the work as symbolic of a "vacuum far beyond despair". I think that's appropriate, so I don't think these are properly "sad" works.
I would like to add Honegger 3rd symphony and of course many works by G.F. Malipiero.
Quote from: Mark on November 04, 2007, 02:26:10 PM
I'll add Britten's 'Sentimental Saraband' from his Simple Symphony (for string quartet); it has a bittersweet quality that's at once sad and joyful in a nostalgic kind of way.
Nice choice ;)
A number of mentions so far of Mahler's Ninth ... but how about the closing pages of his Tenth? Okay, it wasn't finished at his death, and to hear the finale doesn't necessarily make you sad. But consider what Mahler wrote on the score towards the very end of the work: 'Alma - To live for you, to die for you.' It's so moving to know that despite the inevitability of losing the love of his life to another man, Mahler could still write such honest music that expressed his deep feelings for his wife. Now that's sad. :'(
Intentionally or not, dear old Bach wrote some sad music too. I find some of the Choral Preludes (BWV 639 or 659 for example) quite sad. Also Siciliano from the Flute sonata, second movment of concerto BWV 1042, larghetto from the oboe concerto in A and many more that I can't remember now
Quote from: orbital on November 04, 2007, 02:52:32 PM
Intentionally or not, dear old Bach wrote some sad music too. I find some of the Choral Preludes (BWV 639 or 659 for example) quite sad. Also Siciliano from the Flute sonata, second movment of concerto BWV 1042, larghetto from the oboe concerto in A and many more that I can't remember now
Just heard the E-flat minor P&F from bk1 of the WTC. :'(
Quote from: Mark on November 04, 2007, 02:34:29 PM
A number of mentions so far of Mahler's Ninth ... but how about the closing pages of his Tenth? Okay, it wasn't finished at his death, and to hear the finale doesn't necessarily make you sad. But consider what Mahler wrote on the score towards the very end of the work: 'Alma - To live for you, to die for you.' It's so moving to know that despite the inevitability of losing the love of his life to another man, Mahler could still write such honest music that expressed his deep feelings for his wife. Now that's sad. :'(
i actually didn't even know about that comment....
anyways, i could understand him 100% and i'm not even married :)
(in a sort of vague unrelated way)
Quote from: GREG GREG GREG GREG GREG GREG GREG GREG GREG GREG on November 04, 2007, 03:14:53 PM
i actually didn't even know about that comment....
anyways, i could understand him 100% and i'm not even married :)
(in a sort of vague unrelated way)
It's changed the way I hear the whole symphony, and made it my favourite after Nos. 4, 5 and 7.
Quote from: edward on November 04, 2007, 08:01:38 AM
The first movement of Schubert's D960, at least as played in the Richterian manner, not to mention a lot of his later lieder.
Yes, that is crushingly beautiful.
Here's a rather more non-canonical one: the coda to the finale of Honegger's First Symphony. After the energy of the finale dissipates, the slow afterword has a deep, intense sadness to it.
Busoni's Berceuse elegiaque and the Sarabande from Sarabande und Cortege I also find painfully sad: not sad in such an intense way as some of the other pieces, yet the sadness in these works I find harder to shrug off. Similarly with the second subject (the oboe theme) in the first movement of Prokofiev's Sixth Symphony. (And the prelude to the third act of Tristan und Isolde for that matter.)
Quote from: sidoze on November 04, 2007, 03:00:42 PM
Just heard the E-flat minor P&F from bk1 of the WTC. :'(
Thankfully it is one of the easier preludes to play too.
I like that prelude without the embellishments (a la Gould), a more direct approach such as that by Feinberg works perfectly. At most a few tasteful ornaments like Sokolov does works well too.
Elgar's music is really sad.
Quote from: c#minor on November 04, 2007, 12:17:12 PM
Yes very sad but i think i can beat it in the same symphony.
About 13 min. into the 1st movement right after, the timpani fades and then the strings almost cry out and the brass answers. And this call and answer lasts for about 1 min and 30 seconds. Every time i hear it i shiver and want it to end because there is so much despair, yet it is sublime. To me without a doubt it is the saddest minute and a half of music ever written.
Yes.(sorry...)
Quote from: erato on November 04, 2007, 02:22:32 PM
Good explanation for what I meant; of course what works does that is a personal "feeling" or how you experience a particular work, all I meant that Pettersson IMO avoids going "over the top" in a way I feel other composers don't. As in the difference between wallowing in one's misery vs. handling the misery and moving on.
Yes, and he does that (not going over the top) in a very huge, full way; but it never feels like he's doing too much, even if he's doing alot.
Something popped in my mind when you talked about wallowing in one's misery and handling the misery. That is one obscure area. Dont you think that, for exemple, the strongest man can also be the most suffering, and the only thing he feels to express is his suffering? Suffering doesn't come necessary from weakness, and it's expression self-pity. That must be pretty rare, if it ever existed. But would you recognize him, or you'll think that wallowing and self-pity also aply to him?
May i had "Ingrid's Lament" and "Solveig's Song" from Grieg's Peer Gynt?
I was watching the Rubinstein Remembered DVD earlier, and the way Arthur plays the Chopin c sharp mazurka op 30 on this film evokes all those feelings of saudade
Quote from: Varg on November 04, 2007, 06:35:56 PM
May i had "Ingrid's Lament" and "Solveig's Song" from Grieg's Peer Gynt?
ohh, yes you may, and "Ase's Death" too, in the searing six-minute rendition given by Beecham.
Quote from: brianrein on November 04, 2007, 09:32:19 PM
ohh, yes you may, and "Ase's Death" too, in the searing six-minute rendition given by Beecham.
How could i forgot to mention "Aase's Death"!!
Quote from: orbital on November 04, 2007, 05:46:17 PM
At most a few tasteful ornaments like Sokolov does works well too.
That is one Sokolov performance I don't like much (e-flat minor P&F). The Prelude seems too slow, too heavy and laboured, and the P&F a bit brisk. The Richter on Russian Revelation is about perfect for me. Actually the direct approach in Norstein's Skazka Skazok is pretty much perfect too. I wonder who the pianist was...
Wagner's Tristan und Isolde - Prelude to Act III
Beethoven - String Quartet No. 13 (Cavatina)
Schubert - Adagio movements to the String Quintet and the Death and the Maiden quartet.
I wouldn't call the closing bars of the adagio of the Bruckner 9th "desolate" at all.
In fact, they are very gentle and full of consolation after the agonies of the rest of the movement.
Not particularly "sad", perhaps, but IMHO music is hardly capable of expressing sadness at all. But least there's music that discloses an awareness of death or of a related desolation. Examples that never fail to impress me are the closing bars of a handful of `near death symphonies' like:
Nielsen 6 `Semplice'
Vaughan Williams 6
Honegger 5 `Di Tre Re'
Shostakovich 15
Malcolm Arnold 9 (in fact, this complete symphony is an example of what I mean)
Åse's Death resonates particularly with me for several reasons. I used to live quite close to Grieg's place in Bergen and share his initials. During my mother's funeral I improvised on a church-organ and realized only later that I had structured the improvisation around the notes in Åse's Death.
Quote from: Christo on May 13, 2010, 01:09:14 PM
Examples that never fail to impress me are the closing bars of a handful of `near death symphonies' like:
Nielsen 6 `Semplice'
Vaughan Williams 6
Honegger 5 `Di Tre Re'
Shostakovich 15
Malcolm Arnold 9 (in fact, this complete symphony is an example of what I mean)
I know all of those except the Honegger. I would add Schnittke's 8th, which feels very similar to the Arnold in particular. The ending, with its very faint sense of hope after 35 minutes of desolation, is especially poignant.
Also the Martinu 6th belongs in this category. The coda is much like that of the Bruckner 9th, mentioned above.
A lot of Mussorgsky fits the bill nicely for me-- the idiot's melody in Boris, Songs and Dances of Death, about the second half of Khovanschina, etc.
Another cliche-- Albinoni's Adagio-- used frequently in the movies, but I still love it.
Tchaikovsky 6th definately. Also his Piano Trio... And the 3rd String Quartet Adagio.
Chopin Cello Sonata
Rachmaninov Cello Sonata
Also Chopin last few Mazurkas, Waltzes, Nocturnes and Songs from 1847-49 are quite sad.
And Chopin 2nd Ballade ending...
Lots of Chopin and lots of Tshaikovsky are sad!
Parts of Rachmaninov Vespers i find extremely sad and i always feel sad
after Sibelius's Andante Festivo.........
one more;
Debussy PELLEAS ET MELISANDE. The few last pages. It's so subtle, that's so pro in Debussy- not big cymbals clashing or strings weeping, only few gorgeous bars and the bells... very "beautiful"death.That's almost impossible to listen with your eyes drie.
I wonder why some find works that express hope and kind of an inner strength "sad", like Parsifal or a Bruckner Adagio????? They can move you but that's not sad music, no way!! :o
Quote from: Christo on May 13, 2010, 01:09:14 PM
Not particularly "sad", perhaps, but IMHO music is hardly capable of expressing sadness at all.
I find this statement extremely odd. What do you think Barber's Adagio is expressing, or
When I am laid down in earth is expressing?
At the very top of my list: The final scene from Poulenc's Dialogues of the Carmelites. And not just my list: My sister, a jaded opera fan, told me that when she saw that opera live, she sobbed out loud.
As long as I'm here, though, I've got to say that no matter how "sad" the music is, I always feel cleansed when it's done. Like great tragic drama, it's cathartic. This is true of the sad movements from Peer Gynt, Mahler's Sixth Symphony and Das Lied von der Erde, the Barber Adagio, Shostakovich's Fourteenth, Gorecki's Third, and most certainly of the aforementioned Dialogues, as well as many other "sad" pieces.
Quote from: jochanaan on May 15, 2010, 05:11:37 PM
At the very top of my list: The final scene from Poulenc's Dialogues of the Carmelites. And not just my list: My sister, a jaded opera fan, told me that when she saw that opera live, she sobbed out loud.
As long as I'm here, though, I've got to say that no matter how "sad" the music is, I always feel cleansed when it's done. Like great tragic drama, it's cathartic. This is true of the sad movements from Peer Gynt, Mahler's Sixth Symphony and Das Lied von der Erde, the Barber Adagio, Shostakovich's Fourteenth, Gorecki's Third, and most certainly of the aforementioned Dialogues, as well as many other "sad" pieces.
Interesting. I had to revisit the ending to that one, since I hadn't listened in a few years.
(which failed- I'd probably have to see/listen to the whole thing again to "get it.")
Quote from: Guido on May 15, 2010, 09:18:35 AM
I find this statement extremely odd. What do you think Barber's Adagio is expressing, or When I am laid down in earth is expressing?
Of course I see what you mean, and I didn't formulate very well. What I meant was: music is of course capable of expressing sadness, but with me, the listener, the effect is rather the opposite. I don't feel sad at all, when I hear Barber's Adagio. Just beauty and a consoling kind of happiness, to put it simple. About the same applies to all "sad" and "tragic" music. It makes me rather cry of joy than of grief. :)
I guess that happens to many. The expression of sadness or tragedy via the vehicle of music has a very different result with the audience. What perhaps comes closest is the rather elaborate attempt of Allan Pettersson. But then, it's rather
Angst that he's able to communicatie, not exactly sadness, IMO. :-\
Quote from: jochanaan on May 15, 2010, 05:11:37 PM
As long as I'm here, though, I've got to say that no matter how "sad" the music is, I always feel cleansed when it's done. Like great tragic drama, it's cathartic. This is true of the sad movements from Peer Gynt, Mahler's Sixth Symphony and Das Lied von der Erde, the Barber Adagio, Shostakovich's Fourteenth, Gorecki's Third, and most certainly of the aforementioned Dialogues, as well as many other "sad" pieces.
That's an even better way of explaining our response to "sad" music. Yes, I totally agree.
Agree with Christo and Jowcol's suggestions:
The Simpleton's lament at the end of Mussorgsky's 'Boris Gudonov' is one of the most sad and touching moments in all music that I know. I saw a production in London, years ago, where, at the end, the Simpleton emerges, in darkness, from a pile of bodies on stage - sings his lament and then slowly lies down again - merging back into the pile of bodies - I don't expect to see anything more moving on stage. Also, yes, Tchaikovsky's 'Pathetique' - first and last movement - especially the glowering darkness at the end. Elgar's 'Sospiri' Alan Pettersson's 7th Symphony (ending). End of Mahler's 9th and Bruckner's 9th. End of Shostakovich Symphony 4. Parts of Hanson's 'Elegy for Koussevitsky' has, for me, the unbeatable combination of great sadness, combined with defiance, as does Sainton's wonderful 'Nadir' (a response to witnessing a child's death in the Blitz on Bristol in World War Two). Slow movement of Miaskovsky's valedictory 27th Symphony (he was dying of cancer at the time yet, in many ways, I think that the symphony is a hymn to life). Middle bit of second movement of Miaskovsky's 6th Symphony - a wonderful flute passage which seems to suggest a yearning nostalgia for an irretrievably lost past. Truscott's 'Elegy for String Orchestra'. Ross Edwards' Symphony 'Da Pacem Domine'. Last movement of Malcolm Arnold's 9th Symphony. Parts of Suk's 'Asrael Symphony'. End of Vaughan Williams Symphony No 9 (again sadness merged with hopeless defiance). Climax of last movement of Moeran's Cello Concerto, end of Bax Symphony 7.
Quote from: vandermolen on May 18, 2010, 01:27:19 PM
Agree with Christo and Jowcol's suggestions:
The Simpleton's lament at the end of Mussorgsky's 'Boris Gudonov' is one of the most sad and touching moments in all music that I know. I saw a production in London, years ago, where, at the end, the Simpleton emerges, in darkness, from a pile of bodies on stage - sings his lament and then slowly lies down again - merging back into the pile of bodies - I don't expect to see anything more moving on stage.
Every time Jeffrey makes of post about "valedictory" or "hopeless defiance" it always costs me money. Not that I'm complaining. I keep a record of all of his examples.
I adore the simpleton's lament-- but Khovanschina wallows in that mood even further. The entire second half of Khovanschina, from the banishment of Golitsin, is nothing that the sorrow of the Russian people. The choruses are the real start here, not the soloists.
I also like the Stravinsky orchestration of the final immolation-- unlike the RK, it is ruly "not a bang, but a whimper".
WHoever mentioned the role of catharsis with sad music I totally agree with-- I find overly cheerful music depressing-- I love minor keys, melancholy "classical", and of course, the blues...
The song "Like a Sick Eagle" by Ives is maybe his saddest - the tragic mode is not one often visited by Ives, but in this tiny piece he creates one of the saddest and most moving musical utterances ever committed to the page.
Jan DeGaetani's recording on that classic Ives song disc remains the best version. Heartbreaking stuff.
Jan Swafford has suggested that it was written in relation to his wife Harmony's sudden miscarriage and emergency hysterectomy meaning that they never had their own children.
Sadly it's not on Youtube - the only one there is by Naruki who is generally a great Ives interpreter, but here she sings it too fast. In the DeGaetani version Gilbert Kalish gives incredible support - he's another truly great Ives interpreter.
Quote from: jowcol on May 19, 2010, 03:30:35 AM
Every time Jeffrey makes of post about "valedictory" or "hopeless defiance" it always costs me money. Not that I'm complaining. I keep a record of all of his examples.
I adore the simpleton's lament-- but Khovanschina wallows in that mood even further. The entire second half of Khovanschina, from the banishment of Golitsin, is nothing that the sorrow of the Russian people. The choruses are the real start here, not the soloists.
I also like the Stravinsky orchestration of the final immolation-- unlike the RK, it is ruly "not a bang, but a whimper".
WHoever mentioned the role of catharsis with sad music I totally agree with-- I find overly cheerful music depressing-- I love minor keys, melancholy "classical", and of course, the blues...
I thought you'd be 'listening in' :) Just to say that John is not entirely 'Mr Innocent' either when it comes to responsibility for fellow GMG Forum members having to fork - out hard earned cash. His recommendation of Ronald Lo Presti (never heard of him before) has already resulted in a purchase of a Koch CD containing Lo Presti's 'The Masks' - the first movement of which I play over and over again - an absolutely beautiful piece.
Thought I would revive this thread for posterity. My list of what I consider the 'saddest' music would be a very long list but a few that spring off the top of my head:
Silvestrov: Symphony No. 5 (Andante movement)
Barber: Cello Concerto (second movement - Andante sostenuto)
Shostakovich: Violin Concerto No. 1 (third movement Passacaglia)
Shostakovich: The Golden Age (Dance of the Diva - Adagio)
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 5 (third movement Largo)
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 7 'Leningrad' - (third movement Adagio)
Part: Cantus in Memoriam Benjamin Britten
Casella: Sinfonia (Symphony No. 3) (second movement - Andante molto moderato quasi adagio)
Tubin: Symphony No. 1 (first movement - Adagio - Allegro Feroce
...more to come, I'm sure. :)
Here's an offbeat, but I think totally appropriate, suggestion:
"Blind Musicians," the third movement of A Summer's Tale by Josef Suk.
Quote from: Brian on October 10, 2014, 08:48:47 PM
Here's an offbeat, but I think totally appropriate, suggestion:
"Blind Musicians," the third movement of A Summer's Tale by Josef Suk.
Excellent choice. Beautiful movement.
Barber's Adagio for Strings, absolutely. It became a cliched for a reason.
I haven't listened to it for a while, but I seem to remember Brahms' Clarinet Trio gave me a bit of heartache??
Agree with all the comments about Mahler's capacity for sadness, and Chopin's.
I think there's an argument, though, that you're more likely to get a lot of sadness if you have words. There some pretty powerful lieder out there.
And I'm going to veer into 'popular' music territory to mention the rather folk-ish singer Patty Griffin, because goddamn it, that woman is devastating on a regular basis. Also, a live performance by Tori Amos of a slightly obscure song of hers called Cooling that I'm unlikely ever to forget. This is cooling faster than I can.
-Mahler's Symphony No. 9, 4th movement
-Webern's Six Pieces for Orchestra, or perhaps the Symphony
-Ligeti's Lontano (actually, I see it as a combination of 60% sad, 39% creepy, and 1% beautiful)
-Shostakovich's String Quartet No. 8
-Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 6, though I haven't heard it in a long time
-Bartok's Piano Concerto No. 3, 2nd movement -- heart-wrenching, especially with the gong crashes near the end. I even find the 1st movement sad in a way. On the other hand, the slow (2nd) movements of the other piano concertos are just creepy as hell - especially the PC1, which could pass as a bona-fide horror movie score.
-Ravel's Ma Mere l'Oye, V. Le Jardin Feerique. I played this in orchestra a few years ago. Powerful.
Of off the top of my head, three composers that I enjoy that I've yet to hear significant sadness from are Haydn, Stravinsky, and Messiaen. These are my "joyous" composers and respectively fall into the categories of controlled cheerfulness, quirky playfulness, and blinding glory.
Quote from: EigenUser on October 11, 2014, 01:23:36 AM
-Mahler's Symphony No. 9, 4th movement
Sad? I thought it's one of the most peaceful piece of music I have ever heard.
Quote from: springrite on October 11, 2014, 01:33:38 AM
Sad? I thought it's one of the most peaceful piece of music I have ever heard.
Really?? That is
the saddest work I've ever heard. Are you joking or being serious?! Not that I'm implying that you are wrong, but I'm just amazed at how different our responses are!
Quote from: EigenUser on October 11, 2014, 01:52:07 AM
Really?? That is the saddest work I've ever heard. Are you joking or being serious?! Not that I'm implying that you are wrong, but I'm just amazed at how different our responses are!
Well, you mentioned Bartok's 3rd Piano Concerto, and I can't say that's struck me as sad. Responses are indeed very individual, especially when we're talking about instrumental, non-programmatic music.
Quote from: orfeo on October 11, 2014, 12:58:34 AM
And I'm going to veer into 'popular' music territory to mention the rather folk-ish singer Patty Griffin, because goddamn it, that woman is devastating on a regular basis.
As is, in the same vein, Emmylou Harris (her reaction to the death of Graham Parsons, "Boulder to Birmingham", is my choice for saddest music ever). Put Patty and Emmylou together and magic happens. The combination of music and lyrics in "Little Fire" is, indeed, devastating.
All that I want is one who knows me
A kind hand on my face when I weep
And I'd give back these things I know are meaningless
For a little fire beside me when I sleephttp://www.youtube.com/v/6ewyXS3ZwEc
Sarge
Yes, I'm aware of the multiple collaborations of those 2 ladies. My father is something of an Emmylou Harris fan, although we've not really swapped respective collections.
I could happily trade Patty Griffin clips with you all day, Sarge (EDIT: Or even Patty Griffin lyrics), but I fear the natives might get restless. ;D
Anything serial, actually performed.
Maybe I'm using sad a bit differently from some of you ...
>:D
The swan's song from Swan Lake.
Quote from: EigenUser on October 11, 2014, 01:52:07 AM
Really?? That is the saddest work I've ever heard. Are you joking or being serious?! Not that I'm implying that you are wrong, but I'm just amazed at how different our responses are!
For me, the really sad part of the 9th is the first movement. The finale is more about acceptance. But I know that's not necessarily the most common view.
Lekeu quartet for orchestra
https://www.youtube.com/v/gdOMn468FN8
+ Goreki 3rd symphony, but that seems to obvious to be worth mentioning (I haven't read the thread to see if it was mentioned.)
Prokofiev Piano Concerto No. 2.
Berg Violin Concerto
Janácek: On an Overgrown Path
I was telling my buddy, Karlo (North Star), the other day that the opening movement of Copland's The Tender Land Suite is steeped in sadness. It's like a farmer from Nebraska wakes up each morning only to find his crops withering away due to a drought and his thoughts on how he will provide for his family through upcoming months.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 11, 2014, 06:29:54 PM
I was telling my buddy, Karlo (North Star), the other day that the opening movement of Copland's The Tender Land Suite is steeped in sadness. It's like a farmer from Nebraska wakes up each morning only to find his crops withering away due to a drought and his thoughts on how he will provide for his family through upcoming months.
Ok, It's been a while since I've heard it, but I've got to listen to this piece with a description like that....
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 11, 2014, 06:34:47 PM
Ok, It's been a while since I've heard it, but I've got to listen to this piece with a description like that....
Ha! Yeah, Greg, give it a listen. 8)
Quote from: edward on October 11, 2014, 10:50:35 AM
For me, the really sad part of the 9th is the first movement. The finale is more about acceptance. But I know that's not necessarily the most common view.
I agree with
edward on this. I don't feel sadness at all when I hear the finale.
Works that I find to be sad are mostly operas or pieces with a specific program or story that lead to sadness, like the final scene of Britten's Death in Venice, or Strauss' Metamorphosen.
One non-program piece that always gives me that sad vibe is the 3rd Movement from Philip Glass' Symphony no. 8. The whole three movement piece is a little on the darker-toned side, but listen to entire piece for the full effect, mainly how the 2nd ends and the mood that the final-3rd movement introduces immediately. This "sadness" carries on for the 7 minute duration leaving little hope for salvation in this story. :'(
Found a candidate from Haydn, courtesy of Gurn.
http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/10/1779-the-music-part-1-.html
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 11, 2014, 07:04:23 PM
Found a candidate from Haydn, courtesy of Gurn.
http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/10/1779-the-music-part-1-.html
Which one? 63, 70 or 75?
The final movement of Tchaikowsky's Pathetique - in a way that is almost unbearable because it's so personal somehow. I just dug out a bootleg I have of a performance by Gergiev in Paris in 1999, a very good performance, and really it is astonishingly moving music.
As a Brit - stiff upper lip - I find it really hard to listen to. Uncomfortable, like hearing someone weeping. It made me feel helpless.
Quote from: EigenUser on October 11, 2014, 01:23:36 AM
-Bartok's Piano Concerto No. 3, 2nd movement -- heart-wrenching, especially with the gong crashes near the end. I even find the 1st movement sad in a way. On the other hand, the slow (2nd) movements of the other piano concertos are just creepy as hell - especially the PC1, which could pass as a bona-fide horror movie score.
Of off the top of my head, three composers that I enjoy that I've yet to hear significant sadness from are Haydn, Stravinsky, and Messiaen. These are my "joyous" composers and respectively fall into the categories of controlled cheerfulness, quirky playfulness, and blinding glory.
I found the 3rd Bartok concerto overall rather serene, including the slow movement. Agree with the creepiness of the ones from the other concertos (also the 3rd mvmt. from Musik für Saiteninstrumente etc.). The Elegia from the Concerto for Orchestra and the central movement of the divertimento are sadder for me.
For Haydn it is more often wistful melancholia than desperate sadness: The 2nd movement (largo) from the quartet op.76/5, several movements from the "7 last words" or the slow movements from the symphonies 44 "Mourning" and 49 "La Passione"
otherwise I nominate lots of Schubert: first two movements of the last piano sonata, the slow movements from the D 959 sonata, the D 887 quartet, dozens of songs (e.g. "Am Meer", "Ihr Bild", "Die Stadt" from "Schwanengesang", the last half dozen of "Die Schoene Muellerin", most of Winterreise).
Quote from: Jo498 on October 11, 2014, 11:38:37 PM
I found the 3rd Bartok concerto overall rather serene, including the slow movement. Agree with the creepiness of the ones from the other concertos (also the 3rd mvmt. from Musik für Saiteninstrumente etc.). The Elegia from the Concerto for Orchestra and the central movement of the divertimento are sadder for me.
I find it serene, too, but in a sad way. Not the finale, but the 1st and 2nd movements. The 1st movement sounds so pure -- the opening is like being underwater. I have no idea why I think that, but I do. I probably find it sad because of the circumstances under which he was writing it -- for his wife to have a source of income (performance rights and royalties) after he died. I'm sure that kind of financial planning is common among people in his situation, but the fact that it was a composition (as opposed to stocks, a family business, etc.) just makes it all the more personal.
Most of the 2nd movement isn't too sad, but I always find the ending (last minute or so) heart-wrenching. The part with the "Tristan chord" played by the orchestra, the piano arpeggios, and ultimately the gong crash.
I do think that my favorite slow movement from the Bartok PCs is the one in the 1st PC. It is really Bartok's night music at its best. It has everything -- the things-that-go-bump-in-the-night, distant echos, lonely introspective piano melodies, and a terrifying buildup midway through. Such a great piece. Hard to imagine why it was received so poorly. Some of the reviews were borderline insulting. Ungrateful audience!! :D ::)
I haven't heard it in a while, either (over a few months!). I will change that later today!
(Sorry for derailing the thread, guys!)
The slow movement from the
Divertimento is definitely sad, as is the 3rd movement from the CFO (a great piece that no one here seems to talk about!). And, yes, creepy definitely applies to the 3rd movement of the
MSPC. It was used in Kubrick's
The Shining for a few scenes, to great effect.
Does anyone find Ligeti's
Lontano to be sad? I've found it to be one of the more personal works of his from his 1960's style.
From the music I know, I think I would pick (like many other) the Finale of Tchaikovsky 6, because it leaves no hope and/or comfort anymore. Well, of course, a desperate human being might think "at least Pjotr understands my despair ...", but Pjotr certainly doesn't make your despair disappear.
I.c. the Finale of Mahler 9, this thread already shows that some people consider it as a peaceful resignation (I don't btw), so, if Mahler was trying to create the same hopeless ending as Tchaikovsky, he apparently failed.
Purcell's Dido's Lament is very sad and emotional, but Dido's death is a sacrifice for love, which, to me, can be considered a gesture of beauty. The final chorus gives that kind of a comfort, too.
Pieces like Mozart/Süßmayr's Lacrimosa end, like many Requiem pieces, with the peaceful thought of eternal rest, so it moves me, but I don't feel completely lost like in the finale of Tchaikovsky 6.
The final scene of Poulenc's Dialogues des Carmélites was mentioned (I love it, too) and of course it's heartbreaking, but at least those women are true heroines and keep their faith until the end, which is shown by their singing of the Salve Regina.
A few very sad examples in pop music that popped up in my mind: How Can We Hang On To A Dream of Tim Hardin and Passover of Joy Divison. The last verse of that song, with a freezing cold guitar and monotone rhythm section, doesn't leave much room for hope.
This is the crisis I knew had to come,
Destroying the balance I'd kept,
Turning around to the next set of lies,
Wondering what will come next.
Ah, popular music...
Quote from: Wikipedia"Gloomy Sunday", also known as the "Hungarian Suicide Song", is a song composed by Hungarian pianist and composer Rezső Seress and published in 1933.
Urban legends
The original lyrics were titled Vége a világnak (The world is ending) and were a set of lyrics about despair caused by war, and ending in a quiet prayer about the people's sins. Poet László Jávor wrote his own lyrics to the song, titled Szomorú vasárnap (Sad Sunday), in which the protagonist wants to commit suicide following his lover's death.[1] The latter lyrics ended up becoming more popular while the former were essentially forgotten. The song was first recorded in Hungarian by Pál Kalmár in 1935.
The song was composed by Rezső Seress while living in Paris, in an attempt to become established as a songwriter in late 1932.[4] The original musical composition was a piano melody in C-minor, with the lyrics being sung over it.[5] Seress wrote the song at the time of the Great Depression and increasing fascist influence in the writer's native Hungary, although sources differ as to the degree to which his song was motivated by personal melancholy rather than concerns about the future of the world. The basis of Seress' lyrics is a reproach to the injustices of man, with a prayer to God to have mercy on the modern world and the people who perpetrate evil.[6] There are some suggestions[7] that the words of "Vége a világnak" were in fact not written until World War II itself and not copyrighted until 1946.
Seress initially had difficulty finding a publisher, mainly due to the unusually melancholy nature of the song. One potential publisher stated:" It is not that the song is sad, there is a sort of terrible compelling despair about it. I don't think it would do anyone any good to hear a song like that.[8] "
The song was published as sheet music in late 1933,[9] with lyrics by poet László Jávor, who was inspired by a recent break-up with his fiancée.[4] According to most sources, Jávor rewrote the lyrics after the song's first publication, although he is sometimes described as the original writer of its words.[10] His lyrics contained no political sentiments, but rather were a lament for the death of a beloved and a pledge to meet with the lover again in the afterlife.[8][11][12] This version of the song became the best known, and most later rewritings are based around the idea of lost love.[13]
There have been several urban legends regarding the song over the years, mostly involving it being allegedly connected with various numbers of suicides, and radio networks reacting by purportedly banning the song.[14] However, most of these claims are unsubstantiated.[15]
Press reports in the 1930s associated at least nineteen suicides, both in Hungary and America, with "Gloomy Sunday",[3][4][16] but most of the deaths supposedly linked to it are difficult to verify. The urban legend appears to be, for the most part, simply an embellishment of the high number of Hungarian suicides that occurred in the decade when the song was composed due to other factors such as famine and poverty. No studies have drawn a clear link between the song and suicide.[15]
In January 1968, some thirty-five years after writing the song, its composer Rezső Seress did commit suicide. He survived jumping out of a window in Budapest, but later in the hospital choked himself to death with a wire.[17]
The BBC banned Billie Holiday's version of the song from being broadcast, as being detrimental to wartime morale, but allowed performances of instrumental versions.[3] However, there is little evidence of any other radio bans; the BBC's ban was lifted by 2002.[15]
Quote from: EigenUser on October 11, 2014, 01:52:07 AM
Really?? That is the saddest work I've ever heard. Are you joking or being serious?! Not that I'm implying that you are wrong, but I'm just amazed at how different our responses are!
lol, I agree...
Quote from: EigenUser on October 11, 2014, 01:23:36 AM
-Mahler's Symphony No. 9, 4th movement
[...]
Quote from: springrite on October 11, 2014, 01:33:38 AM
Sad? I thought it's one of the most peaceful piece of music I have ever heard.
Quote from: EigenUser on October 11, 2014, 01:52:07 AM
Really?? That is the saddest work I've ever heard. Are you joking or being serious?! Not that I'm implying that you are wrong, but I'm just amazed at how different our responses are!
Henry-Louis de la Grange, renowned Mahler connoisseur, about the Finale of Mahler 9 (published on the once famous classical music site
Andante.com):
Like that of Das Lied von der Erde
, this ending is in no way pessimistic or tinged with despair. Whether one discovers here a message of hope, a farewell of heartrending tenderness or the serene acceptance of fate, few listeners will deny that this final Adagio brings with it a sense supreme fulfillment, an ideal catharsis. Fervent in its meditation, it crowns and completes the huge 'novel' in nine chapters, 'full of sound and fury', that constitutes Mahler's oeuvre. Audiences are not mistaken when they feel an exceptional emotional charge as the music fragments and grows ever more rarefied. The work invariably carries the audience with it. It seems to compel its performers to outdo themselves and invites its listeners to feel at one with each other.So, springrite isn't alone in his experience.
Personally, I always feel that there is a huge difference between the final bars of
Das Lied von der Erde and the Ninth, the first being far more relaxed and peaceful in its farewell with a longing for eternity, whilst the Ninth offers a tension in which I almost hear its creator scream "I don't want this farewell ... please ... I want to live ...".
Quote from: edward on October 11, 2014, 10:50:35 AM
For me, the really sad part of the 9th is the first movement. The finale is more about acceptance. But I know that's not necessarily the most common view.
I agree, and though maybe not the most common view, it is certainly a distinct minority view. The first movement is more about longing, about reminiscences, desire for life, the last one is almost a transfiguration or even dissolution. And in the last movement of "Das Lied von der Erde" one gets both!
http://www.youtube.com/v/_oP6XazatCc
on his dvd recording of bach's cello suites, rostropovich described suite #2 as sorrow & intensity, and said he plays it a lot for people who feel sad, especially the sarabande
http://www.youtube.com/v/fbIvO0EyTUs
Mingardo, singing for Alessandrini in this disc. The first track, Hor ch e Tempo Di Morire 'Canzonetta Spirituale Sopra Alla Nanna' Per Voce E Continuo, would squeeze tears from a stone.
[asin]B000249EXS[/asin]
Quote from: Baklavaboy on October 14, 2014, 08:42:50 AM
Mingardo, singing for Alessandrini in this disc. The first track, Hor ch e Tempo Di Morire 'Canzonetta Spirituale Sopra Alla Nanna' Per Voce E Continuo, would squeeze tears from a stone.
Yes!!!! A great disc!
that was a good one
Quote from: Baklavaboy on October 14, 2014, 08:42:50 AM
Mingardo, singing for Alessandrini in this disc. The first track, Hor ch e Tempo Di Morire 'Canzonetta Spirituale Sopra Alla Nanna' Per Voce E Continuo, would squeeze tears from a stone.
[asin]B000249EXS[/asin]
WOW! That is breathtaking. :'( ;D
(just listened to it online)