GMG Classical Music Forum

Been craving to get a kickarse recording. There are so many good ones out there but there is only one which would you recommend?

4+5 concertos:

- Wilhelm Kempff/BPO/Ferdinand Reitner
- any more suggestions?

Emperor:

- Rudolph Serkin/NYPO/Bernstein (Emperor)
- Michelangeli/Vienna Symphoniker/Guilini (Emperor)
- Van Cliburn/CSO/Reiner


Is the new Helene Grimaud Emperor with Staatskapelle Dresden/Jurowski any good? If its good I might grab the Helene one first!  ;D

Stephen Kovacevich, LSO, Sir Colin Davis for the Emperor - fantastic playing from SK.

It's on two different CDs, but the Bronfman/Zinman is my personal "kickarse" favorite.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=106445&album_group=5

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=144825

The first one listed for each concerto would be the one to keep if I could only keep one.


4th

Kempff / Leitner
Gilels / Ludwig
Sherman / Neumann
Moravec / Belohlavek
Haskil / Zecchi
Pollini / Abbado
Sanchez / Ros-Marbo (for an 'alternative' approach)


5th

Pollini / Bohm 
Serkin / Ormandy
Katchen / Gamba
Schnabel / Sargent
Sherman / Neumann
Fischer / Furtwangler
Michelangeli / Smetacek  (other recordings worth considering)
Gieseking / Galliera

4 - Arrau/Haitink


5 - Polloni/Boehm or Serkin/Bernstein (with an equally incredible 3)

Quote from: hornteacher on November 04, 2007, 05:20:40 AM
It's on two different CDs, but the Bronfman/Zinman is my personal "kickarse" favorite.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=106445&album_group=5

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=144825

I really like these, too.  I don't have one of those collections reaching back to Edison, but of those I do have--Gilels/Szell, Fleisher/Szell, Pollini/Böhm, Arau/Haitink, and Bronfman/Zinman--the last is my preference these days.  I keep meaning to pick up Kempff/van Kempen, however.

Quote from: hornteacher on November 04, 2007, 05:20:40 AM
It's on two different CDs, but the Bronfman/Zinman is my personal "kickarse" favorite.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=106445&album_group=5

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=144825

Yes my favorite also. I only have about 5 recordings of these works but Bronfman/Zinman is truly something special.

I have two favorites for the Emperor, both with Sir Clifford Curzon as the soloist: the Knappertsbusch/WP recording from 1957 and the Boulez/BBCSO performance from 1971. I am generally a fan of Knappertsbusch, and as broad as his tempi generally were, Boulez is comparable in this piece. Knappertsbusch ran 38'54" and Boulez 39'37". I tend to favor Boulez, if for no other reason than his sensitivity to the soloist and the balance between the same and the orchestra. Knappertsbusch might have the echt Deutsch thing down a little better, though. There is a certain weight and heft, a 19th-Century interpretation, as it were, to Knappertsbusch's recording. As Jed Distler noted in his CT review, Boulez, on the other hand, is a dynamic collaborator. There is a sense, at least to these ears, that they are working together - as opposed to Boulez filling the time between solos. I gather that there is an Audite recording of Kubelík leading the SOBR in the two concertos in 1977. If those performances are as good as the rest of the Kubelík/SOBR/Audite stuff, I can recommend those sound unheard. Curzon is, in all the cases with which I am familiar, elegant and poised.

4, Fleisher & Szell. 5, Gelber & Leitner.

QuoteIs the new Helene Grimaud Emperor with Staatskapelle Dresden/Jurowski any good? If its good I might grab the Helene one first!  Grin

While the recommendations you've received thus far are excellent, and you'll no doubt be satisfied with almost any of them, I will answer the latter part of your question. In my opinion, the Grimaud/Jurowski/Staatskapelle Dresden IS good. VERY good. Grab it.

My favorite Emperor would be Michelangeli/VSO/Giulini. But as a combination of 4 &5 try to find Gilels/Philharmonia/Ludwig. It was on the EMI GROC series, but I'm not sure it's still around.

4&5 combined

Gilels/Ludwig - still available on Testament
Perahia/Haitink

#4
Gilels/Ludwig
Moravec/Turnovsky

#5
Katchen/Gamba
Rubinstein/Wallenstein
Schnabel/Sargent

If I interpret "kickarse" correctly, I would strongly commend Fleisher/Szell for 4 and Backhaus/Schmidt-Isserstedt for 5. These want for nothing IMO.

However, there are so many other fine ones. Many have already been mentioned. I thoroughly concur with Gilels/Ludwig for both 4 and 5, but would categorize these as more civilized than kickarse. I love Kempff, but unless you're allergic to mono, I'd say at least listen to his earlier versions with van Kempen as well as his later ones with Leitner. Same comment re the E. Fischer/Furtwangler "Emperor"--this is a classic--and whatever Schnabel you prefer (I currently like the Sargent). Moravec is great in 4, whoever he's paired with, and Haskil too is worth hearing. While I have not heard Grimaud's commercial releases, she made #4 rather a concert specialty, and I have downloads of at least 3 different performances from assorted venues from a couple of years back (EDIT: from '01, '02 and '03--I just checked)...they are indeed worth a listen, though they do not displace Fleisher or Gilels in my personal top list. Michelangeli's assorted live performances offer riches: his live 5 with Giulini is fine, but I have an old IGI LP of performances with Zdravkovic of #4 and Steinberg in #5 that have moments of magic (in very faded sonics, alas), and just recently got one of his #5 performances with Celibidache. Recent relistening to Serkin performances--w/ Ormandy in 4 and Bernstein in 5--have made me feel more appreciative of his approaches, as well. Then there's the Casadesus/van Beinum #4. The Gieseking/Rother #5 with ack-ack obligato (stunning performance all the same). And...and... Darn. I could just go on and on listing fine performances...


;)

Dirk

Quote from: hornteacher on November 04, 2007, 05:20:40 AM
It's on two different CDs, but the Bronfman/Zinman is my personal "kickarse" favorite.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=106445&album_group=5

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=144825

Glad you mentioned Bronfman. He absolutely whips hide in the Fourth (and the Third, actually), but I'll take Sherman in the Fifth - Bronfman tries a little too hard to be 'different', for my liking, in that beautiful central movement. The result is a stilted and unnecessarily fussy performance that never quite glides as I always think it should.

Quote from: Mark on November 05, 2007, 02:37:34 PM
Glad you mentioned Bronfman. He absolutely whips hide in the Fourth (and the Third, actually), but I'll take Sherman in the Fifth - Bronfman tries a little too hard to be 'different', for my liking, in that beautiful central movement. The result is a stilted and unnecessarily fussy performance that never quite glides as I always think it should.

I liked the different approach to the Emperor, but I do agree that the peak of his cycle is the performance of the 3rd and 4th.

for 4th: Lang Lang/Eschenbach.

Quote from: Bonehelm on November 05, 2007, 08:07:37 PM
for 4th: Lang Lang/Eschenbach.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

great joke!!!!

Quote from: Holden on November 06, 2007, 10:51:19 AM
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

great joke!!!!

Y'know, I thought it, but didn't dare say it out loud. ;D

Sorry, Bonehelm. You can like whatever you like. We all do ... and we all occasionally get stick for it. ;)

Quote from: Mark on November 06, 2007, 01:29:54 PM
Y'know, I thought it, but didn't dare say it out loud. ;D

Sorry, Bonehelm. You can like whatever you like. We all do ... and we all occasionally get stick for it. ;)

I think Bonehelm is serious...

Sorry Bonehelm, I couldn't help myself. Please accept my apology if you were offended.

Quote from: dirkronk on November 05, 2007, 02:31:12 PM
....... but I have an old IGI LP of [Michelangeli] performances with Zdravkovic of #4......

Read somewhere that authenticity of that one has been questioned by Centro di Documentazione
"Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli" (http://www.centromichelangeli.com/hom.htm) and that it is now believed to be Maria Tipo playing and not Michelangeli. Don't know the details but if interested you could try e-mailing them.

yeah that one has been talked about for a while. I remember DK praising it to the sky before finding out that it's supposedly Tipo (a pianist he doesn't like, god knows why).

I'll be darned. Thanks for the info. Obviously I missed out on all the discussion about that one. I still like the performance, so I'm not going to ditch the album. But if it's true that it's Tipo, I guess it would make sense...I've kept that album in part because I've never seen another recording of Michelangeli playing the 4th concerto. Did the guy just not include that in his repertoire--just as Richter never did the 2, 4 and 5? I once THOUGHT that I'd seen (and even bought) a 4th on DGG from the live and videotaped cycle that ABM did with Giulini, but my last foray into my boxed LPs yielded no such treasure, and I've been assured by other collectors that it doesn't exist. I knew that there was no 2 ever issued on vinyl, but I own the 1, 3 and 5...and somehow "remembered" that I'd found the 4 right at the tail end of the vinyl era. So much for the reliability of my brain cells. Drat. The mind DOES play tricks when you have more recordings in your collection than you can comfortably recall. I'll stop typing now and go buy a king-size bottle of ginkgo biloba...

;D

Dirk

P.S. OK, I just zipped around to the only ABM online discography I currently have bookmarked and the Zdravkovic is the only performance of the 4th listed, so I guess I just answered my own question.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/7959680.jpg)
or
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/9831245.jpg)

I'll mention a few - the more I hear, the less I have clear favourites.

For both concertos: Schnabel/ Sargent; Solomon/Cluytens/Menges

no. 4: Gieseking/Böhm

no. 5: Kempff/ Van Kempen

Q

Quote from: Que on November 07, 2007, 04:52:56 PM
Solomon/Cluytens/Menges

Oh, yes. Most definitely. Should have mentioned these myself.

Dirk

I heartily second the Katchen/Gamba listed previously.

My favorite are:

Concerto 4 -  Gilels, Ludwig / Backhaus, Isserstedt / Serkin, Toscanini

Concerto 5 -  Gilels, Ludwig / Kempff, van Kempen / Curzon, Knappertsbusch

My vote goes to the recent Bronfman/Zinman recordings.  Second choice would be Pollini/Abbado, 3rd is Gilels/Szell, and 4th would be either of the Kempff sets.

The Bronfman/Zinman pairing is pretty popular around here. Is that four or five recommendations, now? ???

Quote from: Mark on November 10, 2007, 02:31:02 AM
The Bronfman/Zinman pairing is pretty popular around here. Is that four or five recommendations, now? ???

4 and 5.  ;D

Methinks:
One should leave Moravec unheard in no. 4, recorded with Musikverein-Orchestra Vienna and Turnovský in the mid-sixties. On Supraphon.

Quote from: Valentino on November 10, 2007, 05:02:18 AM
Methinks:
One should leave Moravec unheard in no. 4, recorded with Musikverein-Orchestra Vienna and Turnovský in the mid-sixties. On Supraphon.

Do you mean one should not leave Moravec unheard?

 ;D Insert NOT where appliccable, George.


That was a whoopsy all right. Thanks.

Quote from: Valentino on November 10, 2007, 05:54:35 AM
;D Insert NOT where appliccable, George.


That was a whoopsy all right. Thanks.

;)

Quote from: George on November 04, 2007, 06:03:48 AM
4 - Arrau/Haitink


5 - Polloni/Boehm or Serkin/Bernstein (with an equally incredible 3)

The Boehm I have, and it's fantastic...it's the best I have. I'd strongly reccomend checking out any of George's LvB reccomendations, as the man definitely knows the most satisfying recordings.

I'm listening to a recording of Beethoven's Fourth Piano Concerto which, while it doesn't fulfil the OP's brief by being in any way 'kick-ass', is nonetheless one to which I'm inclined to return. It was, for me, the breakthrough recording of this concerto - and by 'breakthrough', I mean it was the performance that woke me up to this work. Surprising, really, as I don't think I own a less bombastic (i.e. 'awakening') interpretation than this:

(http://images.contentreserve.com/ImageType-100/0992-1/%7B78DC028D-2704-42C0-8C45-044617680906%7DImg100.jpg)

My liking for it is undiminished, it would seem, in the five years since I first really listened to it (I'd owned it for a lot longer), and while there's not a great deal to admire in the orchestral playing, Vladar's pianism is well worth the cover price. He's sensitive, precise and seems to judge tempi just right. I'd certainly urge you to grab it if you see it going cheaply (well, cheaper than it already is ;D). Be aware, however, that there's also a Naxos release of this same Fourth Piano Concerto coupled with Vladar's take on the Third. Go for the one pictured here if you can - his Third is less interesting, IMO; whereas his Fifth is really rather good, though not earth-shatteringly so. ;)

Would I be laughed at for recommending Gould?    :o

Quote from: Norbeone on November 16, 2007, 04:51:16 PM
Would I be laughed at for recommending Gould?    :o

I am standing by to laugh at that recommendation should the opportunity arise.  ;D

Quote from: O Mensch on November 19, 2007, 12:27:56 PM
I am standing by to laugh at that recommendation should the opportunity arise.  ;D

Noted.

;)

For the 5th there is only ONE recording:

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/93/607493.jpg)

Quote from: Norbeone on November 16, 2007, 04:51:16 PM
Would I be laughed at for recommending Gould?    :o

I really enjoy the Gould set which is assembled from several conductors over time, not a first choice but well worth getting for a collector who wants to hear some interesting versions. Gould's Beethoven 5th piano concerto with Ancerl/Sony is better performance than one in set, but sound is from TV show track so not as high quality.......but the opening run of the 1st movement is just sublime, probably best opening I have heard for any PC 5 version.

Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 20, 2007, 07:31:51 AM
For the 5th there is only ONE recording:

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/93/607493.jpg)

I adore this record, but nobody should have this as their only version. OTOH one shouldn't have a traditional version without this, either!

Quote from: Tyson on November 09, 2007, 10:49:40 AM
My vote goes to the recent Bronfman/Zinman recordings.  Second choice would be Pollini/Abbado, 3rd is Gilels/Szell, and 4th would be either of the Kempff sets.

I bought the Bronfman/Zinman/Arte Nova piano concerto CDs when they first came out, thought they were great and just filed them away, but now that Tyson mentions them again I re-listened and they do hold up well against almost any version out there old or new. Definitely pick these up since they have great modern sound and sold at mid price.

The whole Zinman/Arte Nova Beethoven series is great: Symphonies, Piano Concertos, and Overtures.

Quote from: DarkAngel on November 20, 2007, 11:49:29 AM
The whole Zinman/Arte Nova Beethoven series is great: Symphonies, Piano Concertos, and Overtures.

And all are included in this stupidly cheap set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XZ0SUOILL._SS500_.jpg)

Today, I finally got to hear the whole of Ashkenazy's Fifth, with the big Russian conducting from the keyboard (not bad going: only taken me ten years to be bothered to track it down ;D). I have to say it won me over immediately, not least for the gorgeous way he handles the central movement. Not necessarily going to topple the Sherman/Neumann account; but in my affections at least, it's a close run thing. Oh, and the Choral Fantasy is the best I've yet heard, too:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414TSABWPDL._SS500_.jpg)

Quote from: erato on November 20, 2007, 11:18:17 AM
I adore this record, but nobody should have this as their only version. OTOH one shouldn't have a traditional version without this, either!

Well the Schoonderwoerd CD isn't perfect, but to my mind it comes closest to the true spirit of the 5th.

Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 20, 2007, 01:45:49 PM
Well the Schoonderwoerd CD isn't perfect, but to my mind it comes closest to the true spirit of the 5th.

I think everyone has their own definition of a works true spirit and that you need to hear a variety of interpretations to find it. And that is part of the fun! I think I feel like you; but admit that this is an individual, and not an universal, conclusion. The only one able to decide this is the great Ludwig van, and he is beyond reach.

Quote from: erato on November 20, 2007, 01:54:18 PM
I think everyone has their own definition of a works true spirit and that you need to hear a variety of interpretations to find it. And that is part of the fun! I think I feel like you; but admit that this is an individual, and not an universal, conclusion. The only one able to decide this is the great Ludwig van, and he is beyond reach.

I do not know if that would do much good. In many ways, Ludwig was beyond reach when he lived. Anyway, sometimes the composer is correct, sometimes he is not. Listeners experienced ears will rightly determine for him or herself, not composers or academics.

Quote from: BorisG on November 20, 2007, 02:16:05 PM
I do not know if that would do much good. In many ways, Ludwig was beyond reach when he lived. Anyway, sometimes the composer is correct, sometimes he is not. Listeners experienced ears will rightly determine for him or herself, not composers or academics.

But how can you determine if you only know one interpretation?

Quote from: erato on November 20, 2007, 02:27:52 PM
But how can you determine if you only know one interpretation?

I agree with that thought, thus "experienced ears" insert. I was primarily speaking to the aftermath, of composers influence or interference.

Quote from: Norbeone on November 20, 2007, 07:30:50 AM
Noted.

;)

Duly.

Quote from: erato on November 20, 2007, 01:54:18 PM
I think everyone has their own definition of a works true spirit and that you need to hear a variety of interpretations to find it. And that is part of the fun! I think I feel like you; but admit that this is an individual, and not an universal, conclusion. The only one able to decide this is the great Ludwig van, and he is beyond reach.

If you had heard this disk you would not be saying this, you'd be agreeing with me. What Beethoven had in mind and the usual fat sloppy mess that is made of the 5th these days are completely different things, as with his Violin Concerto. But it helps for starters if you use the kind of instruments the music was composed for.

Concerning the 4th by far my favourite to date is by Badura-Skoda playing his 1820 Graf piano with the Collegium Aureum. This is an old recording on DHM from the 70s coupled with B's trio concerto. But the sound, especially the piano sound, is beautiful.

Quote from: Rod Corkin on November 23, 2007, 05:22:56 AM
If you had heard this disk you would not be saying this, you'd be agreeing with me.

Please read my first posting........I think it included the word adore (hint)

Moravec/Ancerl - 4

Hofmann/Barbirolli - 4

no opinion on 5. There are so many wonderful performances of that one, you can't really go wrong, can you? Not so many of 4 however.

Quote from: sidoze on November 23, 2007, 02:43:10 PMno opinion on 5. There are so many wonderful performances of that one, you can't really go wrong, can you?

Alas, yes.

Quote from: erato on November 23, 2007, 11:10:50 AM
Please read my first posting........I think it included the word adore (hint)

Sorry I was in a rush, I was aware of your earlier comment, I just didn't notice the person I was responding to was you! But still my point I think is still valid. I would say one can accept the subjective element to only a certain degree, beyond which the opinion must be regarded as erroneous.   >:D

Quote from: Todd on November 24, 2007, 07:00:06 AM


Alas, yes.

LOL! Will take your word on it! And would take your recommendations if ever inclined to explore further.