This is a continuation of posts on countertenors that were distorting another thread. Rather than to send us further off topic, I thought I would start a new thread.
Harry kindly drew my attention to the voice of Mera and I thought I would give it a go. I bought his Best of disc, from BIS. As you would expect it is a collection of bits and pieces.
Mera has as exceptionally pure and sweet voice. He also seems to be a good linguist, he sings in a number of languages. There are some Japanese art songs included on the disc, he expands his styles further with film soundtrack music and one item that strikes me as Euro-pop.
He tackles the Rachmaninoff Vocalise and then we move into the Bach/Handel mood. I say mood, because at best I feel he merely manages to create a general mood of whatever he is singing, ideally slowly. He was the countertenor used initially on the Suzuki Bach Cantata recordings and I know his departure was lamented. He has also been taken up by John Elliott Gardiner.
He has all the required notes in his range. However, there is something very soft centred about how he comes across. For example, from The Messiah he sings But who may abide. That aria has slow and fast sections. In the fact sections there is no what I would think of as fire in the belly. No projection of the meaning of the words, the challenge and the question, who is good enough when the saviour comes to judge as a refiners fire. This is nevertheless in pretty flawless English. By contrast, I yesterday heard Brigitte Fassbaender sing But who may abide, in German. There we are in another world interpretively. She makes the words count and throws down the challenge within them very decisively.
This marshmallow approach holds through the Bach, it is very beautiful and worth hearing, but somehow a world away from that profound contemplation of faith that Bach is so fond of. Perhaps had I simply heard his arias in context I would not have felt so smothered in sweetness as I did listening to an hour of him. Great beauty of sound can be allied to meaning and in this type of music, listen to Arleen Auger for an object lesson. On the countertenor side, Scholl is I think superior in Bach.
A Dvorak song fares well, then comes the group of Japanese art songs. I suggest these are pleasing in a group of say three after which they seem rather boring. They are accompanied by piano and remind me most of French art songs, but without real inspiration and with extremely simple piano accompaniments.
He sounds pretty much as his photos portray him. What you see is definitely what you get.
(http://re3.mm-a1.yimg.com/image/1973789203)
Nice thread, Mike. :D
Are male sopranos allowed here too?
I am not sure of the distinction between a male soprano and a countertenor, to the extent there is one, do feel free.
Mike
I'm not sure either. I just know there are singers out there referred to as male sopranos, so I assumed there was some sort of difference... ???
The sweetness of Mera is blending perfectly into the Bach cantatas, the duets are fantastic, as if his voice is floating in mid air.
I have heard many counter tenors in my life, but non comes as close to the ideal as Mera, and you are right Mike, it is much lamented that Suzuki has put him aside!
I have a CD by Sverrir Goðjónsson titled Epitaph where he, the composer, arranger and performer calls himself Countertenor, yet when I first heard him I was sure I was listening to a soprano, not even a mezzo, but a regular soprano. Every note crystal clear, not strain, no pulling up from the kneecap, as Daniels has been doing lately.
Does not answer the question if there is a difference between a countertenor or a male soprano. Maybe any vocal experts here can comment.
Not that this answers it, but I have a recording by Stephanie Blyth where on one track she is partnered by Daniels, who is singing higher than she is and in comparison sounds like a soprano to her contralto.
Mike
And there is Jochen Kowalski starring in Handel's Orfeo ed Euridice who, in an interview, calls himself a male soprano. - Not that it's of importance to this thread, Kowalski, with a big smile, assured the interviewer "Everything's all there!". ;D
Do try this out and have a listen to his other tracks on YouTube.
An extraordinary colluratura aria....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7PTeoDDZNA
A slow lament, both Vivaldi.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJoalfIaOz0&mode=related&search=
Philippe Jaroussky Countertenor
-------------------------------------------------------------
Here is Mera singing some Handel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNbbVHnTecw
Mike
Now I have listened to all your offerings, Mike, interesting to compare. The Vivaldis by Jaroussky turned me off, because he sounded so flat, no 'meat' to the tone. Then came Mera. Ok, sweet and nice and clean, maybe a bit too sweet. While I was at UTube I listened to the segment titled Farinelli, which is of course misleading because it is from the movie by the same name and the singing was electronic mixed and manipulated with a real female voice.
Then back to Jaroussky singing the same aria, the Lascia, and there is what I had hoped to hear: A perfect and beautiful male soprano. So it depends on what he sings, - Vivaldi too fast, - giving him the chance to show his talent. His extremely good looks of course don't do any harm either! ::)
Lis, I am glad you enjoyed them, I did not think the counter tenor would be your cup of tea.
I thought the Vivaldi was very impressive, but I can understand what you mean. I think Jaroussky is a singer to watch....quite a future ahead of him.
Folks, do add in your comments and clips of countertenors, good or bad.
Mike
Quote from: knight on April 21, 2007, 08:59:40 AM
Lis, I am glad you enjoyed them, I did not think the counter tenor would be your cup of tea.
Mike
Had not paid any attention to the category of male singers pretending to be females until I bought the LVD of the 1991 ROH production of
Orfeo ed Euridice directed by
Harry Kupfer. This version won the Olivier Award for "Most outstanding Achievement in Opera" and I was fascinated by
Jochen Kowalski's acting and singing, a rather athletic performance. Now I just read on the back cover of the LVD that Kowalski is called a
male alto. Oh well, I take Kowalski's word any time: a male soprano he is!
Is a question welcome? I have read that Rene Jacobs was a great counter tenor and had a good career in that. Then, for whatever reason he became a terrific conductor of Baroque and Classical music. I love his conducting in Haydn's 4 Seasons and Bach's Christmas Oratorio.
Another remark I read said he was not a good singer. Does anyone know which is right? Is/was he or is/was he not a good singer and why did he change to a conductor?
Questions are always welcome, Anne! That's one of the main reasons for the existence of this forum!
Here is your answer:
http://www.harmoniamundi.com/usa/artistes_fiche.php?artist_id=54
Quote from: Anne on April 21, 2007, 09:48:50 AM
Is a question welcome? I have read that Rene Jacobs was a great counter tenor and had a good career in that. Then, for whatever reason he became a terrific conductor of Baroque and Classical music. I love his conducting in Haydn's 4 Seasons and Bach's Christmas Oratorio.
Another remark I read said he was not a good singer. Does anyone know which is right? Is/was he or is/was he not a good singer and why did he change to a conductor?
René Jacobs was an
awful countertenor (IMO), but he was lucky to one of the pioneers in the HIP field.
He is on the other hand a
very talented conductor - one of the best, or even
the best of baroque opera.
Why he switched careers, I don't know - maybe problems with his voice?
Anyway - I'm glad he did.
BTW on the topic of this thread: I think
Paul Esswood did a
very fine job in the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt Bach cantatas cycle.
Jaroussky I like in Vivaldi. I've grown quickly weary of the voices of
Andreas Scholl and
Gérard Lesne.
Q
Jochen Kowalski, yes, I did once see a stage version of him singing Orfeo. It was televised, one thing I recall is that he was in a field of TVs, (Televisions, not transvestites Lis.) that I seem to recall were showing him what Euridice was up to down below...if you know what I mean.
He was a very high profile singer at one point. I have one best of disc from him, but I felt he was frequently singing flat. But at his best he was terrific and put forward the virile side of the voice category. He also sang Orlovsky, though for me, no one has been better than Fassbaender at that role.
Anne, I got rid of a Rene Jacobs disc, I could not get along with what I though of as a hooty uneven production of his voice.
Mike
But, Mike, as Prince Orlovsky he fixed one of the chairs, damaged during the celebration! That's something Fassbaender never managed! You did catch that, didn't you?
Agree with you, Fassbaender is the best Orlofsky, no matter how many had tried this role!
Quote from: uffeviking on April 21, 2007, 11:14:07 AM
But, Mike, as Prince Orlovsky he fixed one of the chairs, damaged during the celebration! That's something Fassbaender never managed! You did catch that, didn't you?
Lis, I did not recall that. BTW, is the production of Orfeo the one with all the TV sets?
Mike
I haven't watched it for some time, and not sure about the TV sets. I am sure about all the beds on old fashioned metal frames and Kowalski, in jeans and leather jacket, leaping and bouncing from one to the other, playing an acoustic guitar. Is that the same one you saw? If it's important let me know and I take a run-through.
Liz, Thats OK, I think it is the same one, I would guess it must be about 25 years old by now.
Mike
Trying to find an answer to the soprano vs. countertenor dilemma I did a google search for the names of the Polish singers that are usually referred to as sopranos and found this interesting site:
The Male Soprano Page (http://www.tp4.rub.de/~ak/disc/) (according to this page there is a major difference in scale between countertenors and male sopranos)
And FYI, here are links to the pages of the two singers I searched for:
JACEK LASZCZKOWSKI (http://www.tp4.rub.de/~ak/disc/jl/)
DARIUSZ PARADOWSKI (http://www.tp4.rub.de/~ak/disc/dp/)
Frankly I am confused by this. The second of your singers can get up to a 'b'. I think some countertenors get there. I looked at the site and hoped the FAQs would hit the spot, but there are none and a number of the links seem to be waiting for someone to fill them.
But thanks, as usual your careful research yields results.
Mike
Apparently some countertenors don't even know that they are sopranos. ;)
They do list one guy (EDSON CORDEIRO) who can actually reach G6! :o (his amazing range is: G - g''' (G2 - G6)) but most of the singers listed can "only" reach B5, and 3 of them only a B flat...
Actually, I browsed around that site a little more, and it seems they are cheating a little bit. ;) Look at the description of KRASSIMIR ABRAMOV: "His voice ranges from the bariton up to a b'' (B5) in falsetto." >:(
Or am I being too strict?
No....I think the site is rather eccentric. Squeeze most men in the right place and they will achieve a b'' (B5) in falsetto.
Mike
OK, now I have TWO quotes for my signature... ;D
--- and I had to pick myself up from the floor after reading Mike's remark. Still chuckling! ::)
Lis, Que, and Mike,
Thank you all for replying to my question about Rene Jacobs. Unless someone recommends a specific performance of a given work, I'll avoid his counter tenor productions. Much appreciated.
There... A little editing gymnastics and I've managed to squeeze it in (see below). I'm proud. :D 8)
Well, thank you kindly sir!
Mike
Here is a link to the other thread where on pages 5 and 6 we mainly discussed countertenors.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,306.80.html
Mike
The concept of "countertenor" itself is indeed a moot point. Deller was a cathedral choir male alto when Tippett discovered him & carried him off to sing Purcell, as can be heard on their recording of the 1695 St. Cecilia Ode. There's certainly nothing tenorial about his voice. I have seen people argue that therefore Deller was no true countertenor - but the term originates in the contratenor altus of 15th C polyphony & has nothing to do with such rigid essentialism. It is true that Russell Oberlin sounds more like a very high tenor. I saw him sing Oberon at Covent Garden in the mid-60s - the rôle was written for Deller but the latter gave it up on stage, possibly because his voice did not carry well in that acoustical space. As an interpreter of Dowland & Purcell he is unrivalled, IMO.
Quote from: mjwal on June 16, 2007, 08:03:22 AM
Deller but the latter gave it up on stage, possibly because his voice did not carry well in that acoustical space. As an interpreter of Dowland & Purcell he is unrivalled, IMO.
I will strongly dispute that IMO. :)
Quote from: uffeviking on April 21, 2007, 11:14:07 AM
Agree with you, Fassbaender is the best Orlofsky, no matter how many had tried this role!
The reason is Fassbaender has something most countertenors don't: A CHEST resonance.
This very fact puts most Opera past the Baroque off limits to such voices or approaches (except for relatively new works of the 20th Century) since everyone has a chest register but the above choose not to use it.
There are some rare tenors who manage to keep the lower register and soar higher than their peers, but the bulk of countertenors, oddly enough, are baritones who sing exclusively in the falsetto.
I can and do enjoy Jaroussky and others, not Mera, though.
These days I find myself appreciative for what I and others have, rather than what they don't have.
ZB
About the merits of Mera versus the more standard countertenors like Scholl, Daniel Taylor, and so on: Mera has a remarkable range soaring way up - and he doesn't seem to get shouty or sound like it's too much of a stretch even in the very highest notes. He almost gets more comfortable the higher he goes, which certainly isn't true for most countertenors.
BUT! I find his voice to be rather drab and washed-out in terms of colour. Comparing the meaty alto arias of the Johannes-Passion (Suzuki) to Scholl's performance for Herreweghe, IMO there's a ruby-rich colouring and flavour in Scholl's voice which Mera doesn't have.
To my ears - and I know all this colour/flavour stuff is very subjective - Mera has an alienating, feline sound. Sometimes I can listen and appreciate the amazing flexibility of his voice, but mostly I'll choose Scholl, who is always brilliant at Bach. Daniels and people like Lawrence Zazzo are different again. They have more blustery, powerful operatic voices which are absolutely breathtaking when deployed in the right kind of music :D.
To my ears, Jarrousky is much more engaging than Mera, but in the same basic category in terms of character of voice.
I guess I basically agree with knight on Mera, then.
Quote from: Tancata on June 21, 2007, 05:03:54 PM
Mera has an alienating, feline sound.
Coming from someone with a cat in their avatar, that sounds like an extravagant compliment.
Quote from: MrOsa on June 22, 2007, 01:54:09 AM
Coming from someone with a cat in their avatar, that sounds like an extravagant compliment.
Heh - I respect and admire cats, but I'm not sure I
love them. I've been hurt before :-X
Don't give up, Tancata! That one cat for you is out there somewhere. A cat who will reciprocate. A cat who will care. Maybe Mera simply isn't, you know, that One yet...
Another male soprano (sopranist): Joerg Waschinski
official website (http://www.joerg-waschinski.de/)
Quote from: masolino on July 03, 2007, 07:42:12 PM
Another male soprano (sopranist): Joerg Waschinski
official website (http://www.joerg-waschinski.de/)
He sounds quite good.
Q
Quote from: Que on July 03, 2007, 08:50:15 PM
He sounds quite good.
Q
I like his voice but wish he could be as assured in technique as someone like David Daniels. He studied with Barbara Schlick, and there seems to me to be a degree of simiarity in their vocal timbres.
Pergolesi: Vidit suum dulcem natum (http://download.yousendit.com/56C5099A2D98C245)
Quote from: Anne on April 21, 2007, 03:17:17 PM
Lis, Que, and Mike,
Thank you all for replying to my question about Rene Jacobs. Unless someone recommends a specific performance of a given work, I'll avoid his counter tenor productions. Much appreciated.
When it comes to vocals, it's all about personal taste. Personally i like Jacob's voice... maybe you should listen to some music clips before you buy anything...that's what i always do.
Quote from: Erevos on July 04, 2007, 03:44:11 AM
When it comes to vocals, it's all about personal taste. Personally i like Jacob's voice... maybe you should listen to some music clips before you buy anything...that's what i always do.
With all respect my friend, but Rene Jacobs voice is terrible, and although its personal, if you know the voice of the counter as I do, you are aware of how it should sound, and what is good and bad. Nothing to do with taste but more with knowledge.
But if you like him, you would be the first of the people I know.
And that is truly amazing. :)
Quote from: Harry on July 04, 2007, 03:51:50 AM
With all respect my friend, but Rene Jacobs voice is terrible, and although its personal, if you know the voice of the counter as I do, you are aware of how it should sound, and what is good and bad. Nothing to do with taste but more with knowledge.
But if you like him, you would be the first of the people I know.
And that is truly amazing. :)
Considering that Jacobs appeared in so many recordings before he retired from professional singing (Leonhardt's wonderful Bach SMP, for example), it appears as a distinct possibility to me that some colleagues of his actually liked his singing, at least for its technical merits, but perhaps more. And CT is hardly the only kind of voice where this happens; Jennifer Smith does not seem to have many fans among early music types, but Marc Minkowski obviously found her voice perfect for certain repertories, for example.
Quote from: masolino on July 04, 2007, 10:15:56 AM
Considering that Jacobs appeared in so many recordings before he retired from professional singing (Leonhardt's wonderful Bach SMP, for example), it appears as a distinct possibility to me that some colleagues of his actually liked his singing, at least for its technical merits, but perhaps more. And CT is hardly the only kind of voice where this happens; Jennifer Smith does not seem to have many fans among early music types, but Marc Minkowski obviously found her voice perfect for certain repertories, for example.
Rene Jacobs was one of the very rare countertenors in his time, therefore he got more prominence as he deserved.
Quote from: Harry on July 04, 2007, 10:19:55 AM
Rene Jacobs was one of the very rare countertenors in his time, therefore he got more prominence as he deserved.
Jacobs was active until into sometime in 1990s and countertenors were not exactly rare by that time. If Leonhardt
actually thought his voice truly ugly he could have opted for Michael Chance, or Dominique Visse, or Gerard Lesne or James Bowman or Drew Minter (to name a few CTs active at the time), no?
Quote from: masolino on July 04, 2007, 10:37:02 AM
Jacobs was active until into sometime in 1990s and countertenors were not exactly rare by that time. If Leonhardt
actually thought his voice truly ugly he could have opted for Michael Chance, or Dominique Visse, or Gerard Lesne or James Bowman or Drew Minter (to name a few CTs active at the time), no?
When Rene started he had the field for him alone.
Honestly, listen to the HM recordings with Judith Nelson, Monteverdi I believe, and hear how he murders the music, with this funny voice of his.
All the other voices you name came later into prominence, and since there was a serious stress on counters to perform for many conductors, there simply was no choice for them.
But listen my friend I accept and respect you like his voice.
Quote from: Harry on July 04, 2007, 10:42:27 AM
But listen my friend I accept and respect you like his voice.
No, I don't actually like Jacobs's voice, if at all. But I want to suggest that conductors like Leonhardt chose him as a soloist in an important recording most likely out of appreciation for certain aspects in his singing and not out of sheer desperation. Jacobs had his share of students - Andreas Scholl, for example, and that is saying something.
Quote from: masolino on July 04, 2007, 11:06:18 AM
No, I don't actually like Jacobs's voice, if at all. But I want to suggest that conductors like Leonhardt chose him as a soloist in an important recording most likely out of appreciation for certain aspects in his singing and not out of sheer desperation. Jacobs had his share of students - Andreas Scholl, for example, and that is saying something.
O, dear yes, he is a excellent teacher, and there was a reason he turned to direction and teaching you know.
I keep it to sheer desperation, for no one in his right mind would take a voice like RN in his recording project.
Sorry, but that is the way I feel about him, very good conductor and pedagogue, but a terrible counter.
Quote from: Harry on July 04, 2007, 11:12:26 AM
Sorry, but that is the way I feel about him, very good conductor and pedagogue, but a terrible counter.
You can feel any way about RJ you like, but I was speculating about condcutors who actually chose him for their recording projects and who I believe were in their right frame of mind when making that choice. :)
Quote from: Erevos on July 04, 2007, 03:44:11 AM
When it comes to vocals, it's all about personal taste. Personally i like Jacob's voice... maybe you should listen to some music clips before you buy anything...that's what i always do.
Quote from: Harry on July 04, 2007, 03:51:50 AM
With all respect my friend, but Rene Jacobs voice is terrible, and although its personal, if you know the voice of the counter as I do, you are aware of how it should sound, and what is good and bad. Nothing to do with taste but more with knowledge.
But if you like him, you would be the first of the people I know.
And that is truly amazing. :)
Right now I'm listening to the Aria "Wer Gott bekennt aus wahrem Herzensgrund" from Bach's Cantata BWV 45
Es ist dir gesagt, Mensch, was gut ist. (Directed by Gustav Leonhardt.) René Jacobs is singing this very good, IMHO. His voice also sounds good.
With all respect ye friends :), I personally think that Jacobs' voice was good in the beginning of his singing career, but from a certain point a shrill edge was audible, especially in the higher regions, which made listening to him rather tiring.
Has anyone heard of Artur Stefanowicz (samples here (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,36712.html))? He seemed to have a great career ahead (around 1990) but I don't know what he's up to now...?
On another thread I've just posted a batch of new DUX releases that have been recently added to my wishlist (;D) but one item seems better suited for this thread. A song recital by the Polish countertenor Dariusz Paradowski (with Jeff Cohen at the piano). I've got one disc with Paradowski singing Mozart arias and there he's credited as a "soprano". The DUX people have decided to call him a "mezzo". According to the infamous "Male Soprano Page" (http://www.tp4.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/~ak/disc/) his range is g - b'' (G3 - B5). Whatever...
For many years, he used to work at the Warsaw Chamber Opera (http://www.operakameralna.pl/). I'm not sure what he's doing right now.
Here's the recording in question. Apparently, he is taking a David Daniels type approach - putting together a disc of stuff written for women singers. Looks rather interesting, to say the least:
(http://www.dux.pl/upload/obrazki/okladki/0659.jpg) (http://www.dux.pl/catalogue/results/details/?pid=390)
Mozart Abendempfi ndung KV 523
Komm, liebe Zither KV 351
An Chloë KV 524
Beethoven Adelaide op. 46
Schubert Der Tod und das Mädchen D. 531
Litanei auf das Fest Aller Seelen D. 343
An die Musik D. 547
Rachmaninov Cон op. 8 nr 5
Rimski-Korsakov Не ветер, вея с высоты op. 43 nr 2
Tchaikovsky Песнь Миньоны op. 6 nr 6
Karłowicz Po szerokim morzu op. 3 nr 9
Talk to me Still Op. 3
Śpi w blaskach nocy op. 3 nr 4
Chopin Lithuanian Song Op. 74 No. 16
Precz z moich oczu op. 74 nr 6
Wichrowski Liście
Obradors El vito
Del cabello más sutil
Coplas de Curro Dulce
Strauss Morgen! op. 27 nr 4
Zueignung op. 10 nr 1
Oh, forgot to mention an interesting recording released last year (by PWA), with Pawel Mykietyn's Shakespeare's Sonnets - a contemporary piece - sung by the "male soprano" Jacek Laszczkowski:
(http://merlin.pl/Speechless-Song,images_big,31,5908259554174.jpg) (http://www.pwa.gov.pl/en/home/61/news/0/621/index.html)
[I don't really like the piece, so this has only halfway made it into my wishlist. ;D]
Hi
Does anyone know what has happened to Mera? Someone told me he does pop music now.
The countertenor I like most is Deller -- especially in Bach and Purcell.
And I recently heard David Daniels singing Bach on the radio, and it sounded unbelievably musical. Has anyone heard the whole CD?
Quote from: Mandryka on February 15, 2009, 12:48:46 PM
Does anyone know what has happened to Mera? Someone told me he does pop music now.
No idea, but I hate that Suzuki replaced him with Robin Blaze who sucks.
Quote from: Mandryka on February 15, 2009, 12:48:46 PM
Hi
Does anyone know what has happened to Mera? Someone told me he does pop music now.
The countertenor I like most is Deller -- especially in Bach and Purcell.
And I recently heard David Daniels singing Bach on the radio, and it sounded unbelievably musical. Has anyone heard the whole CD?
Reply 58 on this thread.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,555.msg223971/topicseen.html#msg223971
Mike
Quote from: Bulldog on February 15, 2009, 12:55:48 PM
No idea, but I hate that Suzuki replaced him with Robin Blaze who sucks.
I could not agree more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :P