Give Yevgeny Sudbin's new CD a spin. I'd been reading gobs of praise about it everywhere, and indeed everything is true: I have never heard the music sound even remotely like this before! Perhaps it may even win converts to one of the most divisive of piano concerti...
Even if it doesn't, it's coupled with a Medtner concerto too. 8)
Quote from: brianrein on April 21, 2007, 08:48:58 AM
Give Yevgeny Sudbin's new CD a spin. I'd been reading gobs of praise about it everywhere, and indeed everything is true: I have never heard the music sound even remotely like this before! Perhaps it may even win converts to one of the most divisive of piano concerti...
Even if it doesn't, it's coupled with a Medtner concerto too. 8)
How's his Rach PS 2? From the samples, he sounds impressive indeed!
Tired of it? Maybe tired of certain performances of it. It's hard to get tired of Tchaikovsky's more "serious" music. It's the lighter stuff which can get a bit tiresome for me...but I can say that about even my favorite composer, Mozart.
Quote from: Haffner on April 21, 2007, 09:49:05 AM
Tired of it? Maybe tired of certain performances of it. It's hard to get tired of Tchaikovsky's more "serious" music. It's the lighter stuff which can get a bit tiresome for me...but I can say that about even my favorite composer, Mozart.
If memory serves, Tchaikovsky hated his own Nutcracker Ballet Music.
Quote from: hornteacher on April 21, 2007, 09:57:08 AM
If memory serves, Tchaikovsky hated his own Nutcracker Ballet Music.
:)
Doesn't that seem to happen to alot of composers, when and after penning more accessible music? I guess the eminently estimable Edvard Grieg really despised "Hall of the Mountain King".
Tired of this masterful concerto? Unless I played once a day, I couldn't see how I could grow tired of this piece. That incredible opening, is one of my favourites of all concerti.
Quote from: Steve on April 21, 2007, 11:13:37 AM
That incredible opening, is one of my favourites of all concerti.
Too bad the remainder of the first movement doesn't support that opening fanfare . . . . . . .
for those tired of Tchaikovsky's PC no.1, congrats! Now you are no longer a beginner!
Quote from: hornteacher on April 21, 2007, 09:57:08 AM
If memory serves, Tchaikovsky hated his own Nutcracker Ballet Music.
Too bad, I love it. :D And no, I'm not tired of Tchaikovsky's 1st PC, actually I just heard it live for the first time yesterday.
Quote from: brianrein on April 21, 2007, 08:48:58 AM
Even if it doesn't, it's coupled with a Medtner concerto too. 8)
The one reason I am considering this CD. Any comments on it?
Quote from: brianrein on April 21, 2007, 08:48:58 AM
it's coupled with a Medtner concerto too. 8)
...which is also masterfully performed. For me, this performance goes straight to the top along with the out of print Zhukov version.
erato, I assume you asked about the performance and not the concerto itself, which - to put it mildly - is a towering masterpiece.
Quote from: Wanderer on April 22, 2007, 10:37:06 AM
...which is also masterfully performed. For me, this performance goes straight to the top along with the out of print Zhukov version.
erato, I assume you asked about the performance and not the concerto itself, which - to put it mildly - is a towering masterpiece.
Have you heard Sudbin's Rachmaninov?
Quote from: D Minor on April 21, 2007, 11:17:42 AM
Too bad the remainder of the first movement doesn't support that opening fanfare . . . . . . .
Yes, the frantic energy of the first 3-4 minutes disappears dramatically, but that isn't to say that the rest isn't beautiful. Throughout the remainder of the 1st movement, that beautiful opening theme returns in different variations. While the second movement isn't one of my favourite slower concerti movements, the third movement is wonderful. I don't listen to it very often anymore, but when I do, I'm always entertained. It lacks the sort of complexity of other Tchaikovsky works, but I haven't tired of it. This piece was, with Van Cliburn, the first piece of orchestral music to really grab my attention.
Quote from: MahlerTitan on April 21, 2007, 01:10:20 PM
for those tired of Tchaikovsky's PC no.1, congrats! Now you are no longer a beginner!
Yes, you've taken a step backward. :)
QuoteMahlerTitan
for those tired of Tchaikovsky's PC no.1, congrats! Now you are no longer a beginner!
It is curious. I am not, far from it, a great fan of Tchaikovsky music. But I like the First Piano Concerto. Not because of the fanfare in the beginning but in spite of it. At least the first two movements show a great invention. I heard recently the version of Pogorelich and Abbado, very poetic, almost introverted, refusing all "pathos", and it was nice.
Quote from: Steve on April 22, 2007, 12:57:35 PM
Yes, the frantic energy of the first 3-4 minutes disappears dramatically..
I would characterize the introduction more as stately, powerful - "frantic energy" doesn't sound right to me.
Quote from: Steve on April 22, 2007, 12:57:35 PM
Throughout the remainder of the 1st movement, that beautiful opening theme returns in different variations.
Really? Just how and where? I have never heard the main body of the movement as alluding to the introduction in any way.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on April 23, 2007, 05:02:47 AM
I would characterize the introduction more as stately, powerful - "frantic energy" doesn't sound right to me.
Really? Just how and where? I have never heard the main body of the movement as alluding to the introduction in any way.
Stately sounds a little polished and mechanical for my liking. I suppose hearing Van Cliburn on that amazing RCA Victor CD might explain it. As for the repitiion of the opening few minutes, the theme is reintroduced near the end. It is not very obvious, and I might be completely wrong, but I detected that Tchaikovsky was alluding to it in the final few minutes. Either way, its more or less trivial to me, as I really meant to demonstrate the merits of that first movement beyond the first few minutes.
Quote from: Steve on April 23, 2007, 10:21:57 AM
Stately sounds a little polished and mechanical for my liking. I suppose hearing Van Cliburn on that amazing RCA Victor CD might explain it. As for the repitiion of the opening few minutes, the theme is reintroduced near the end. It is not very obvious, and I might be completely wrong, but I detected that Tchaikovsky was alluding to it in the final few minutes. Either way, its more or less trivial to me, as I really meant to demonstrate the merits of that first movement beyond the first few minutes.
Cliburn notwithstanding, Tchaikovsky's tempo for the introduction is "Allegro non troppo e molto maestoso" - very majestically. The main body, about whose merits I agree with you, is marked "Allegro con spirito," and here "frantic energy" would work just fine.
I was listening to Gilels' earlier; absolutely great. I didn't expect it to be so good!
I never tire of this work, funnily enough am I the only person on the forum who after 20 years of listening has never bought or heard Tchaikovsky's 2nd or 3rd concertos?
Who to get...not a clue ;)
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on April 24, 2007, 09:56:50 AM
I never tire of this work, funnily enough am I the only person on the forum who after 20 years of listening has never bought or heard Tchaikovsky's 2nd or 3rd concertos?
Who to get...not a clue ;)
You've been listening 20 years? Got you have a small collection :)
I will have overtaken you by the time I am 25.
But seriously, if that is the case, Tony, I would recommend Gilels 2CD set, that has 1-3. It also comes with a bit of Bartok and Prokofiev. See below:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bart%C3%B3k-Prokofiev-Tchaikovsky-Piano-Concertos/dp/B000002SCX/ref=sr_1_9/202-4442586-9880659?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177438348&sr=1-9
Yep, never really gone out of my way to buy/hear the 2nd/3rd concertos. The twofer does look tempting. The only other one which mildly crossed my path are the 3 concertos with Pletnev on Virgin.
Be aware that the Gilels and Pletnev 2nds are cut in the slow movement. I don't know the extent of the cuts in Pletnev, but the Gilels recording cuts about half of the movement out and destroys the entire balance of the work.
Donohoe (EMI twofer, Gramophone Award winner) and Scherbakhov (just out on Naxos) have both done the 2nd without the standard cuts: I assume others have too.
Quote from: edward on April 24, 2007, 10:20:24 AM
Be aware that the Gilels and Pletnev 2nds are cut in the slow movement. I don't know the extent of the cuts in Pletnev, but the Gilels recording cuts about half of the movement out and destroys the entire balance of the work.
Donohoe (EMI twofer, Gramophone Award winner) and Scherbakhov (just out on Naxos) have both done the 2nd without the standard cuts: I assume others have too.
Yes, I would second your comment, and suggest a wonderful alternative. Eugene Ormandy/Gary Graffman have did a spledid job with the 2nd Piano Concerto on a collection of all 3 Tchaikovsky Concertos on Sony.
It's called the
The Three Concertos(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/518BRSKZSWL._AA240_.jpg)
And here's the link:
http://www.amazon.com/Tchaikovsky-Three-Concertos-Mily-Balakirev/dp/B000AARL3O/ref=sr_1_1/103-6192894-4753427?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177454944&sr=8-1
Enjoy.
Quote from: Steve on April 24, 2007, 02:51:34 PM
Yes, I would second your comment, and suggest a wonderful alternative. Eugene Ormandy/Gary Graffman have did a spledid job with the 2nd Piano Concerto on a collection of all 3 Tchaikovsky Concertos on Sony.
It's called the The Three Concertos
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/518BRSKZSWL._AA240_.jpg)
And here's the link:
http://www.amazon.com/Tchaikovsky-Three-Concertos-Mily-Balakirev/dp/B000AARL3O/ref=sr_1_1/103-6192894-4753427?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177454944&sr=8-1
Enjoy.
I thought that Graffman's recording of the 2nd used Siloti's cuts too. Am I wrong?
Quote from: edward on April 24, 2007, 02:56:44 PM
I thought that Graffman's recording of the 2nd used Siloti's cuts too. Am I wrong?
Yes, but it is limited to the Second Movement. That is a downside, but the opening and finale are marvelous on this recording. This is part of the reason that I'm still eagerly looking for other recordings of this concerto.
Quote from: D Minor on April 21, 2007, 11:17:42 AM
Too bad the remainder of the first movement doesn't support that opening fanfare . . . . . . .
That's why I'm telling you,
get the CD! You might like the whole movement!
Scherbakov's excellent and cheap new Second Concerto is fantastic, and his Third is great too - only reservation is that the piano sonics are funny, sound like they're in a different acoustic altogether. Turn the sound up, though, and for some reason the problem resolves itself.
I wasn't aware of the Gilels recording of all Tchaikovsky concertos... thanks, Michel, for the heads-up. :)
The soundbites sound positively thrilling.
I seem to like the stuff that Tchaikovsky himself hated.
Quote from: Valentino on April 24, 2007, 10:49:51 PM
I seem to like the stuff that Tchaikovsky himself hated.
I'm that way about Grieg.
My favourite Tchaikovsky piece is Capricco Italien. :P
What's your Grieg fave, Andy?
Quote from: Valentino on April 25, 2007, 04:36:52 AM
My favourite Tchaikovsky piece is Capricco Italien. :P
What's your Grieg fave, Andy?
I love his Piano Concerto (A minor), though I am not sure about Grieg's feelings on that one. Both my girl and I are crazy about his pieces for piano and violin.
The pieces I meant were Peer Gynt and Hall of The Mountain. From memory, I seem to recall Grieg wasn't particularly cuckoo over the Peer Gynt work, and as most know he despised "In the Hall of the Mountain King" (I love them both).
Quote from: Haffner on April 25, 2007, 06:41:36 AM
I love his Piano Concerto (A minor), though I am not sure about Grieg's feelings on that one. Both my girl and I are crazy about his pieces for piano and violin.
The pieces I meant were Peer Gynt and Hall of The Mountain. From memory, I seem to recall Grieg wasn't particularly cuckoo over the Peer Gynt work, and as most know he despised "In the Hall of the Mountain King" (I love them both).
Andy, could you reccomend some violin pieces of Grieg? I'd be particularily looking to add a new item or two to my next recital.
Quote from: Steve on April 25, 2007, 09:03:11 AM
Andy, could you reccomend some violin pieces of Grieg? I'd be particularily looking to add a new item or two to my next recital.
Steve, you might be best off just getting this terrific set. It has so much great music on it, including the duos for piano and violin I'd mentioned earlier.
Harry had reccomended it to me, and it was absolutely worth the price.
Quote from: Steve on April 22, 2007, 12:57:35 PM
Throughout the remainder of the 1st movement, that beautiful opening theme returns in different variations.
Hmmmm . . . . . . really? To my ears, that opening theme completely evaporates never to reemerge in any guise whatsoever.
Quote from: Steve on April 23, 2007, 10:21:57 AM
Either way, its more or less trivial to me, as I really meant to demonstrate the merits of that first movement beyond the first few minutes.
Well, if that opening theme is structurally integrated into the main body of the concerto, I'd like to learn how. Part of my dislike for Tchaik 1 is the horrid transition between the opening theme and the remaining movement . . . . . . . and if there's any structural coherence between the two (introduction + main body), it would help my appreciation of the first movement to understand what Tchaikovsky was doing (or attempting to do).
I have Petuknov playing Tchaikovsly 1 and 2 recorded live from Buenos Aires. Yes, those guys out there in the audience really are coughing! You shouldn't accept any cut version of the second concerto. The cuts were not made for musical reasons but to save money on paying for the violin and cello soloists. Do we still need to be so stingy today.
Quote from: D Minor on April 25, 2007, 10:53:00 AM
Well, if that opening theme is structurally integrated into the main body of the concerto, I'd like to learn how. . . . if there's any structural coherence between the two (introduction + main body), it would help my appreciation of the first movement to understand what Tchaikovsky was doing (or attempting to do).
Why should there be any more structural coherence between the intro and main body here than in the opening movement of Beethoven's 7th symphony?
Word.
Quote from: Haffner on April 25, 2007, 06:41:36 AM
The pieces I meant were Peer Gynt and Hall of The Mountain. From memory, I seem to recall Grieg wasn't particularly cuckoo over the Peer Gynt work, and as most know he despised "In the Hall of the Mountain King" (I love them both).
My favourite recording of "I Dovregubbens hall" (Dovregubben is untranslatable, so Mountain King it is) is Duke Ellington's. 8)
The reaction in Bergen when Ellington premiered it there was akin to the Sacre du printemps-premiere. Big scandal.
On PIT: I like the Rostropovich/Karajan Rococo Variations.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on April 25, 2007, 11:44:12 AM
Why should there be any more structural coherence between the intro and main body here than in the opening movement of Beethoven's 7th symphony?
LvB 7 doesn't depend on its opening for it's lifeblood and very existence. Tchaik PC #1 utterly relies on its opening fanfare for its popularity and ongoing appreciation among audiences.
Without the opening 4 minutes, Tchaik PC #1 would be but a shell of its current popularity. Thus, it would be nice if the opening somehow bore a relationship to the main body of the movement.
Quote from: D Minor on April 25, 2007, 11:55:40 AM
LvB 7 doesn't depend on its opening for it's lifeblood and very existence. Tchaik PC #1 utterly relies on its opening fanfare for its popularity and ongoing appreciation among audiences.
Oh, I don't believe that for an instant,
mon vieux. When I think of that concerto, I am humming all manner of material that is not from the introduction.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 25, 2007, 11:57:20 AM
Oh, I don't believe that for an instant, mon vieux.
Oh, you know you
do believe it,
mon vieux. As among commonfolk (non-musicians), the opening is what entices the listener . . . . . . .
All compositions must have an opening. How would Tchaik open this hummable concerto otherwise? Open with the transition?
Quote from: D Minor on April 25, 2007, 12:04:30 PM
Oh, you know you do believe it, mon vieux. As among commonfolk (non-musicians), the opening is what entices the listener . . . . . . .
Nay, this is a concerto entirely of enticement.
Anyway, I suppose I have no business on this thread, since I have not anything like tired of the concerto 8)
QuoteJames
Pogorelich's recording of this piece is sick. Check it out if you haven't! It's on DG.
I mentioned this recording. Sick? I don't understand why. Pogorelich and Abbado in the first two movements are very poetic, even contemplative, avoiding all spectacular aspects. I am not saying that this is the only possible approach of the work, or even the best. But it is different and very touching. I still prefer Horowitz/Toscanini or Richter/Mravinski, but the Pogorelich/Abbado version was a very good surprise to me. And I don't even like, in general, Pogorelich or Abbado.
Quote from: val on April 26, 2007, 12:30:07 AM
I mentioned this recording. Sick? I don't understand why. Pogorelich and Abbado in the first two movements are very poetic, even contemplative, avoiding all spectacular aspects. I am not saying that this is the only possible approach of the work, or even the best. But it is different and very touching. I still prefer Horowitz/Toscanini or Richter/Mravinski, but the Pogorelich/Abbado version was a very good surprise to me. And I don't even like, in general, Pogorelich or Abbado.
In some parts of the world "sick" is used as a positive adjective.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 25, 2007, 12:05:42 PM
Nay, this is a concerto entirely of enticement.
Agreed- I'm surprised no one has mentioned the wonderful third movement. Tis an enjoyment all its own. :)
Quote from: Valentino on April 25, 2007, 11:45:06 AM
My favourite recording of "I Dovregubbens hall" (Dovregubben is untranslatable, so Mountain King it is) is Duke Ellington's. 8)
The reaction in Bergen when Ellington premiered it there was akin to the Sacre du printemps-premiere. Big scandal.
On PIT: I like the Rostropovich/Karajan Rococo Variations.
You have great taste!
Quote from: D Minor on April 25, 2007, 11:55:40 AM
LvB 7 doesn't depend on its opening for it's lifeblood and very existence. Tchaik PC #1 utterly relies on its opening fanfare for its popularity and ongoing appreciation among audiences.
Without the opening 4 minutes, Tchaik PC #1 would be but a shell of its current popularity. Thus, it would be nice if the opening somehow bore a relationship to the main body of the movement.
My friend, I don't know what half of this means, and what I do understand I disagree with. The opening may be the most "familiar" aspect of the PIT 1, in part because a popular song ("Tonight We Love") was adapted from it, but most concert-goers know the whole concerto well and many love it. My point was that there is no motivic relationship between intro and opening movement in either the Beethoven or Tchaikovsky examples cited.
LvB 7's 1st mvt depends on the transition between the introduction and main body. To play that flute part would be something. I think I have an appointment with Herr Carlos Kleiber right now.
Quote from: Valentino on April 26, 2007, 10:52:01 AM
LvB 7's 1st mvt depends on the transition between the introduction and main body. To play that flute part would be something. I think I have an appointment with Herr Carlos Kleiber right now.
Most certainly send Herr Kleiber my regards as well, please,
Valentino!
Quote from: Valentino on April 26, 2007, 10:52:01 AM
LvB 7's 1st mvt depends on the transition between the introduction and main body. To play that flute part would be something. I think I have an appointment with Herr Carlos Kleiber right now.
Then all you are saying is that the Beethoven exhibits a smoother transition, with which I would agree. There is still no thematic correspondence between introduction and main section in either Tchaikovsky or Beethoven, nor need there be.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on April 27, 2007, 03:27:02 AM
Then all you are saying is that the Beethoven exhibits a smoother transition, with which I would agree. There is still no thematic correspondence between introduction and main section in either Tchaikovsky or Beethoven, nor need there be.
Hi, Larry, you are probably quite aware of the ideas I've written below, but I felt it would help less knowledgeable members:
I remember reading in Copland's "What to Listen For..." that composers aren't always interested in how "catchy" a melody is...more in how much they can do
with a melody. Sometimes they'll choose melodies which are catchy, but use them sparingly because they aren't fecund with promise for variation, development, etc. Both Beethoven and Tchaikovsky (and many others) would sometimes add an easily accessible melody to a piece with few or
no repeats, because they felt that melody had achieved all it could at the time. There are a couple of marvellous, dramatic melodies in Beethoven's op.59,1 which were actually cut off immediately. They'd done what they were meant to do. Really brilliant, huh? :)
Please forgive me,
Larry, for my clumsy writing, I hope I was at least partly coherent with the above. Once I started reading books like Copland's, my experience with music became (to paraphrase
Dminor's wonderful signature) discovery, not just what "sounds good".
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on April 27, 2007, 03:27:02 AM
Then all you are saying is that the Beethoven exhibits a smoother transition, with which I would agree. There is still no thematic correspondence between introduction and main section in either Tchaikovsky or Beethoven, nor need there be.
Concur, but is it really smoother? Beethoven's transition has more of the "what's gonna happen now, then?" to it, I think. There's suspense. Just my 2 seconds; Any person with the slightest knowledge of music can probably pick this argument apart.
Quote from: Valentino on April 27, 2007, 04:22:45 AM
. . . Beethoven's transition has more of the "what's gonna happen now, then?" to it, I think. There's suspense.
That's all right; there are (as
Larry aptly notes) parallels with the
Beethoven, which raise questions about 'dismissing' the
Tchaikovsky concerto for such-&-so reason. All the same, it is no fault of the
Tchaikovsky concerto that, by and large, there are things it does otherwise than the
Beethoven Opus 92 (as you note).
Quote from: D Minor on April 25, 2007, 11:55:40 AM
Without the opening 4 minutes, Tchaik PC #1 would be but a shell of its current popularity. Thus, it would be nice if the opening somehow bore a relationship to the main body of the movement.
Maybe I missed something but the beginning ta-ta-ta-ta, boom (F,Db,C,Bb) has SOMETHING to do with
the 1st subject: ta-ta-ta-taa (Ab,F,Eb,Db), an alleged part of the "main body of the movement".
Now main key relationships throughout the whole piece are established here in the beginning, if nothing else: Bb minor (I) to Db Major (III). Officially the piece is in Bb minor but the Db (the minor third) is already a ticket to Db major, the key of the 2nd movement. And of course, the first and third movement end in Bb Major.
Perhaps the popularity of this piece has to do with not being able to repress the major element.
If we're talking about openings and material that does not grow organically from itself (as in most if not all of Brahms' works) then what about the opening chords of the Rach II? And incidentally how does Gershwin manage to slip in a E major tune that has virtually nothing to do with the previous material in Rhapsody in Blue, but "works" nevertheless?
ZB