GMG Classical Music Forum

What worries me are the ongoing attacks on Elgar as a composer. And the person on the board that is associated with him. The attacks are directed to him most of the time. And through it, Elgar's worth as a composer is constantly criticised as being secondhand.
Also the constant one liners of which there is no shortage is quite irritating, as if they are not able to find praise, and therefore seek to destroy!
That I side with Poju in his admiration for this composer may be clear. That he chooses not always the right way to approach those that are responsable for the attacks, is clear also, nevertheless he is right in his admiration. I am a Elgar admirer too.
Listening again to his Orchestral works, and chamber music makes clear that he belongs to those that have a rightful and honoured place in the pantheon of our cultural heritage.
So come on, and try to punch me! ;D

I admire much of Elgar's music, and love the Cello Concerto, but find claims that Elgar is the greatest to be utterly stupid. Then again, it's a matter of personal taste. Anyone has the right to think Elgar or Yani to be the greatest composer who ever lived. Ignorance and stupidity is legal and should be tolerated in any democratic and civilized society.  ;D

I'm with you on this Harry. Even without the atacks on Poju (71dB), the constant jabs at Elgar that seem to be infecting every thread these days are not only wearisome in the extreme, but demonstrate a limited imagination on the part of the posters concerned. If you can't post something positive and relevant within a topic, then do us all a favour and sit on your hands. >:(

Amazing works by Elgar that would be hard for many fans of romantic music to dislike:

Serenade for string orchestra, Op.20 (revised version of Three Pieces for string orchestra, 1888-92)
Variations on an Original Theme (Enigma) for orchestra, Op.36 (1899)
Sea Pictures, Song cycle for contralto and orchestra, Op.37 (1897-99)
Cockaigne (In London Town), Overture for orchestra, Op.40 (1900-01)
In the South (Alassio), Concert Overture for orchestra, Op.50 (1903-04)
Introduction and Allegro for string quartet and string orchestra, Op.47 (1904-05)
Falstaff, Symphonic Study for orchestra, Op.68 (1913)
Sospiri for string orchestra and harp, Op.70 (1914)
Sonata for violin and piano, Op.82 (1918)
String Quartet in E minor, Op.83 (1918)
Piano Quintet in A minor, Op.84 (1918-19)
Concerto for cello and orchestra in E minor, Op.85 (1918-19)

Other works which many people like, but more find less good:

The Dream of Gerontius, Oratorio for soloists, chorus and orchestra, Op.38 (1899-1900)
Pomp and Circumstance, Marches No.1-6 for orchestra, Op.39 (1901-1930; sketches, elaborated by Anthony Payne 2005-06)
Symphony No.1 in A flat for orchestra, Op.55 (1907-08)
Concerto for violin and orchestra in B minor, Op.61 (1909-10)
Symphony No.2 in E flat for orchestra, Op.63 (1909-11)
Symphony No 3 for orchestra, Op.88 (sketches, 1932-34, elaborated by Anthony Payne 1972-97)

There are many omissions which many would say are worth appearing in the second section. Pissing all over the composer at (literaly) every mention of his name has caused me to lose some respect for some people on this forum. Not that I think that it will actually "dent" his reputation - it's just a forum - but it demonstrates a negative and slightly vindictive attitude. Some of the comments also downright insult anybody who likes Elgar, out of misplaced zeal for attacking Poju in ever more crude ways.

Quote from: Lethe on November 13, 2007, 01:10:44 AM
Pissing all over the composer at (literaly) every mention of his name has caused me to lose some respect for some people on this forum. Not that I think that it will actually "dent" his reputation - it's just a forum - but it demonstrates a negative and slightly vindictive attitude. Some of the comments also downright insult anybody who likes Elgar, out of misplaced zeal for attacking Poju in ever more crude ways.

Very well put, Lethe.

Quote from: springrite on November 13, 2007, 01:08:20 AM
Ignorance and stupidity is legal and should be tolerated in any democratic and civilized society.  ;D

You're right. Which of course means that if we are to tolerate the ignorance and stupidity of those who hold minority opinions, we must regrettably also tolerate the views of those who oppose such opinions ... even when the persons who are in opposition know full well that their comments serve only to hurt and provoke, rather than to encourage a shift in perspective on the part of whomever's opinions they oppose. ::)

Quote from: Mark on November 13, 2007, 01:21:01 AM
You're right. Which of course means that if we are to tolerate the ignorance and stupidity of those who hold minority opinions, we must regrettably also tolerate the views of those who oppose such opinions ... even when the persons who are in opposition know full well that their comments serve only to hurt and provoke, rather than to encourage a shift in perspective on the part of whomever's opinions they oppose. ::)

Ditto!

I have not borne witness to the Elgar bashing that has obviously gone before but there are some comments here that worry me.
I quote Mark - "Tolerate the ignorance and stupidity of those who hold minority opinions". I do hope this is aimed at specific individual(s). Otherwise, to state that a minority opinion should be tolerated or that anyone who holds such opinions is ignorant or stupid, is deeply worrying.
As I see it a minority opinion is just that - MINORITY - as opposed to being held by the majority. Even an extreme view of racial purity, for example, is only a differing opinion held by a minority. Regardless of it's moral or political correctness, it is neither WRONG nor RIGHT. Something only becomes de facto when encompassed within legislation and even then will be open to debate from the perspective of moralising or semantics and I digress.

Forgive me if I am reading this out of context or merely have grabbed the wrong end of the stick, coming as I do, to the forum at this stage of the proceedings.

Quote from: springrite on November 13, 2007, 01:08:20 AM
I admire much of Elgar's music, and love the Cello Concerto, but find claims that Elgar is the greatest to be utterly stupid. Then again, it's a matter of personal taste. Anyone has the right to think Elgar or Yani to be the greatest composer who ever lived. Ignorance and stupidity is legal and should be tolerated in any democratic and civilized society.  ;D

Since I don't think in great, greater greatest I tend to agree, with you. About that we should be mild with Poju! But taste is very personal, so I leave Poju the room for that.

Quote from: Lethe on November 13, 2007, 01:10:44 AM


There are many omissions which many would say are worth appearing in the second section. Pissing all over the composer at (literaly) every mention of his name has caused me to lose some respect for some people on this forum. Not that I think that it will actually "dent" his reputation - it's just a forum - but it demonstrates a negative and slightly vindictive attitude. Some of the comments also downright insult anybody who likes Elgar, out of misplaced zeal for attacking Poju in ever more crude ways.

Thank you Lethe for this fine and friendly posting.

Quote from: Great Gable on November 13, 2007, 02:09:18 AM
I have not borne witness to the Elgar bashing that has obviously gone before but there are some comments here that worry me.
I quote Mark - "Tolerate the ignorance and stupidity of those who hold minority opinions". I do hope this is aimed at specific individual(s). Otherwise, to state that a minority opinion should be tolerated or that anyone who holds such opinions is ignorant or stupid, is deeply worrying.
As I see it a minority opinion is just that - MINORITY - as opposed to being held by the majority. Even an extreme view of racial purity, for example, is only a differing opinion held by a minority. Regardless of it's moral or political correctness, it is neither WRONG nor RIGHT. Something only becomes de facto when encompassed within legislation and even then will be open to debate from the perspective of moralising or semantics and I digress.

Fear not. I'm referring to a specific, ongoing situation, not to minority views in general. You were right to challenge the way I phrased things, and I agree with you entirely. :)

Lighten up, y'all. Poju gives as good as he gets. None of this so-called "Elgar-bashing" has been about Elgar per se, and some of us have taken considerable pains to offer a balanced rather than exaggerated view of this composer's strengths and weaknesses.

Elgar, as good a composer as...


...Dittersdorf, another innocent victim on this forum.

My apologies then Mark.

I have searched for some evidence of this but can't find anything specific. A user was cited "dminor" but I could find no trace of him - has he been expunged entirely from here?

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 03:09:29 AM
Lighten up, y'all. Poju gives as good as he gets. None of this so-called "Elgar-bashing" has been about Elgar per se, and some of us have taken considerable pains to offer a balanced rather than exaggerated view of this composer's strengths and weaknesses.

You're right. Poju does fight back. But then there's all the instances of unprovoked 'Elgar bashing', which seem to pop up just about everywhere. If you don't like Elgar, that's fine. Just don't use any excuse to lash out at him ... and by 'him', I mean Poju as much as Elgar - the two names now synonymous on this forum. Attacking an entrenched position is NOT the best way to alter it.

Quote from: Florestan on November 13, 2007, 03:09:56 AM
Elgar, as good a composer as...


...Dittersdorf, another innocent victim on this forum.

Quite. And regrettably, this is ALSO down to Poju's fevered advocacy. ::)

Quote from: Great Gable on November 13, 2007, 03:10:06 AM
My apologies then Mark.

I have searched for some evidence of this but can't find anything specific. A user was cited "dminor" but I could find no trace of him - has he been expunged entirely from here?

No worries.

D Minor now goes by the name of Herzog ... something or other.

Quote from: Lethe on November 13, 2007, 01:10:44 AM
Pissing all over the composer at (literaly) every mention of his name has caused me to lose some respect for some people on this forum. Not that I think that it will actually "dent" his reputation - it's just a forum - but it demonstrates a negative and slightly vindictive attitude. Some of the comments also downright insult anybody who likes Elgar, out of misplaced zeal for attacking Poju in ever more crude ways.

I very much agree with the entire quote, except perhaps for the part highlighted: it's not that I lose respect for the people that engage in such "sports". It's that I am forced to conclude there is a chance they really are this immature, a fact frustrating me to no end.

(And I do not measure maturity in comparison to myself, for the record. :))

Otherwise, thank you, Harry, for giving us a chance to remind ourselves that there are people in this world who don't grab the shotgun and go for the village idiot at the first signs of provocation, or even people capable of realising there is no such thing as a "village idiot", among composers or otherwise, and be they named Dittersdorf, Elgar or Poju!

Decency! "He gives as good as he gets" is no excuse for conduct of this sort in an otherwise so-called "civilised" context, regardless of the circumstances.


Edit: Nice list, too, Lethe. :)

Quote from: Renfield on November 13, 2007, 03:22:30 AM
I very much agree with the entire quote, except perhaps for the part highlighted: it's not that I lose respect for the people that engage in such "sports". It's that I am forced to conclude there is a chance they really are this immature, a fact frustrating me to no end.

(And I do not measure maturity in comparison to myself, for the record. :))

Otherwise, thank you, Harry, for giving us a chance to remind ourselves that there are people in this world who don't grab the shotgun and go for the village idiot at the first signs of provocation, or even people capable of realising there is no such thing as a "village idiot", among composers or otherwise, and be they named Dittersdorf, Elgar or Poju!

Decency! "He gives as good as he gets" is no excuse for conduct of this sort in an otherwise so-called "civilised" context, regardless of the circumstances.

Yep. You've got my vote.

Just to let you know where I stand. I couldn't agree more with Harry's eloquent opening statement and Mark's remarks in addition. I don't like to categorize composers in good, better, best either. The concept of a Pantheon of cultural heritage is very appealing. There is no doubt in my mind that Elgar is more than worthy to my esteem and admiration. His music gives me great pleasure over and over again.

Quote from: Florestan on November 13, 2007, 03:09:56 AM
Elgar, as good a composer as...


...Dittersdorf, another innocent victim on this forum.

Exactly, also beaten to pulp by the same posters....

Quote from: Mark on November 13, 2007, 01:09:11 AM
I'm with you on this Harry. Even without the atacks on Poju (71dB), the constant jabs at Elgar that seem to be infecting every thread these days are not only wearisome in the extreme, but demonstrate a limited imagination on the part of the posters concerned. If you can't post something positive and relevant within a topic, then do us all a favour and sit on your hands. >:(

Thank you Mark, I much appreciate all your comments.

Quote from: Renfield on November 13, 2007, 03:22:30 AM
I very much agree with the entire quote, except perhaps for the part highlighted: it's not that I lose respect for the people that engage in such "sports". It's that I am forced to conclude there is a chance they really are this immature, a fact frustrating me to no end.

(And I do not measure maturity in comparison to myself, for the record. :))

Otherwise, thank you, Harry, for giving us a chance to remind ourselves that there are people in this world who don't grab the shotgun and go for the village idiot at the first signs of provocation, or even people capable of realising there is no such thing as a "village idiot", among composers or otherwise, and be they named Dittersdorf, Elgar or Poju!

Decency! "He gives as good as he gets" is no excuse for conduct of this sort in an otherwise so-called "civilised" context, regardless of the circumstances.


Edit: Nice list, too, Lethe. :)

You are welcome my friend.....

Quote from: XXXPawn on November 13, 2007, 03:30:32 AM
Just to let you know where I stand. I couldn't agree more with Harry's eloquent opening statement and Mark's remarks in addition. I don't like to categorize composers in good, better, best either. The concept of a Pantheon of cultural heritage is very appealing. There is no doubt in my mind that Elgar is more than worthy to my esteem and admiration. His music gives me great pleasure over and over again.

Your posting gave me much joy, thank you Thom. :)

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 03:49:24 AM
Your posting gave me much joy, thank you Thom. :)

You're more than welcome (and a good opportunity to change my name back to 'normal').

Please. Noble as all these sentiments undoubtedly are, you are all overlooking the fact that Mr. Poju has insisted on referring to those who do not share his peculiar tastes as "brainwashed" and incapable of experiencing music with the fine degree of "sophistication" that only the "free-thinking" Poju brings to the table. He has also insisted on hijacking threads, such as the recent Bruckner/Mahler discussion, to turn them into referenda on the music of Edward Elgar. Had he not insisted at every turn on being provoking, had he simply stated he thinks Elgar's music is underrated and why, he could have made a better life for himself on this forum. But if someone is going to start calling experienced listeners "brainwashed" and the like, and will not desist despite all attempts to reason with him, he can't be too surprised if others fight back.

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 03:38:36 AM
Exactly, also beaten to pulp by the same posters....

Le pauvre homme . . .

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 03:57:11 AM
Please. Noble as all these sentiments undoubtedly are, you are all overlooking the fact that Mr. Poju has insisted on referring to those who do not share his peculiar tastes as "brainwashed" and incapable of experiencing music with the fine degree of "sophistication" that only the "free-thinking" Poju brings to the table. He has also insisted on hijacking threads, such as the recent Bruckner/Mahler discussion, to turn them into referenda on the music of Edward Elgar. Had he not insisted at every turn on being provoking, had he simply stated he thinks Elgar's music is underrated and why, he could have made a better life for himself on this forum. But if someone is going to start calling experienced listeners "brainwashed" and the like, and will not desist despite all attempts to reason with him, he can't be too surprised if others fight back.

This is, of course, absolutely true. We should not paint Poju as snow-white in all this. Where he makes an ill-considered comment, he should expect to be (sometimes quite brutally, or at least in proportion to his own hostility) challenged - as any of us should likewise expect if we were to do the same. My beef is only with the unprovoked attacks that litter other threads where Poju hasn't voiced his staunch views about Elgar or Dittersdorf. It's here that the whole 'game' becomes horribly distracting and mind-numbingly dull.

Quote from: Mark on November 13, 2007, 04:01:59 AM
My beef is only with the unprovoked attacks that litter other threads where Poju hasn't voiced his staunch views about Elgar or Dittersdorf.

Uh... aren't most if not all his attacks on the "brainwashed" people discussing music on non-Elgar threads also unprovoked?

Quote from: Mark on November 13, 2007, 04:01:59 AM
This is, of course, absolutely true. We should not paint Poju as snow-white in all this. Where he makes an ill-considered comment, he should expect to be (sometimes quite brutally, or at least in proportion to his own hostility) challenged - as any of us should likewise expect if we were to do the same. My beef is only with the unprovoked attacks that litter other threads where Poju hasn't voiced his staunch views about Elgar or Dittersdorf. It's here that the whole 'game' becomes horribly distracting and mind-numbingly dull.

Well, I don't know what "other" threads you're talking about. I can't read everything on this forum. And I can't take the forum so seriously that I'm overly concerned. It's a little Internet forum, for heaven's sake, not the United Nations.

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 03:57:11 AM
Please. Noble as all these sentiments undoubtedly are, you are all overlooking the fact that Mr. Poju has insisted on referring to those who do not share his peculiar tastes as "brainwashed" and incapable of experiencing music with the fine degree of "sophistication" that only the "free-thinking" Poju brings to the table. He has also insisted on hijacking threads, such as the recent Bruckner/Mahler discussion, to turn them into referenda on the music of Edward Elgar. Had he not insisted at every turn on being provoking, had he simply stated he thinks Elgar's music is underrated and why, he could have made a better life for himself on this forum. But if someone is going to start calling experienced listeners "brainwashed" and the like, and will not desist despite all attempts to reason with him, he can't be too surprised if others fight back.

He is just a bad fighter with words that's all. Give him the room he needs, and leave him be....
That way nothing much will happen to the threads he brakes into.
And you will feel no less for it...
Poju gets overheated quickly, if it concerns Elgar, true, but don't be provoked by it, that is all I ask, and if you want to beat someone for Poju trespasses, you can use me....

Quote from: springrite on November 13, 2007, 04:04:40 AM
Uh... aren't most if not all his attacks on the "brainwashed" people discussing music on non-Elgar threads also unprovoked?

Yes, they are. And Poju should stop these, too. >:(

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 04:05:45 AM
Well, I don't know what "other" threads you're talking about. I can't read everything on this forum. And I can't take the forum so seriously that I'm overly concerned. It's a little Internet forum, for heaven's sake, not the United Nations.

Ah, well, y'see, I have no life. ;D

Quote from: Lethe on November 13, 2007, 01:10:44 AM
Amazing works by Elgar that would be hard for many fans of romantic music to dislike:

Serenade for string orchestra, Op.20 (revised version of Three Pieces for string orchestra, 1888-92)
Variations on an Original Theme (Enigma) for orchestra, Op.36 (1899)
Sea Pictures, Song cycle for contralto and orchestra, Op.37 (1897-99)
Cockaigne (In London Town), Overture for orchestra, Op.40 (1900-01)
In the South (Alassio), Concert Overture for orchestra, Op.50 (1903-04)
Introduction and Allegro for string quartet and string orchestra, Op.47 (1904-05)
Falstaff, Symphonic Study for orchestra, Op.68 (1913)
Sospiri for string orchestra and harp, Op.70 (1914)
Sonata for violin and piano, Op.82 (1918)
String Quartet in E minor, Op.83 (1918)
Piano Quintet in A minor, Op.84 (1918-19)
Concerto for cello and orchestra in E minor, Op.85 (1918-19)

Other works which many people like, but more find less good:

The Dream of Gerontius, Oratorio for soloists, chorus and orchestra, Op.38 (1899-1900)
Pomp and Circumstance, Marches No.1-6 for orchestra, Op.39 (1901-1930; sketches, elaborated by Anthony Payne 2005-06)
Symphony No.1 in A flat for orchestra, Op.55 (1907-08)
Concerto for violin and orchestra in B minor, Op.61 (1909-10)
Symphony No.2 in E flat for orchestra, Op.63 (1909-11)
Symphony No 3 for orchestra, Op.88 (sketches, 1932-34, elaborated by Anthony Payne 1972-97)

There are many omissions which many would say are worth appearing in the second section. Pissing all over the composer at (literaly) every mention of his name has caused me to lose some respect for some people on this forum. Not that I think that it will actually "dent" his reputation - it's just a forum - but it demonstrates a negative and slightly vindictive attitude. Some of the comments also downright insult anybody who likes Elgar, out of misplaced zeal for attacking Poju in ever more crude ways.

Excellent post!

Quote from: Mark on November 13, 2007, 04:13:49 AM
Yes, they are. And Poju should stop these, too. >:(

Let him provoke, be be not provoked....

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 03:09:29 AM
Lighten up, y'all. Poju gives as good as he gets. None of this so-called "Elgar-bashing" has been about Elgar per se, and some of us have taken considerable pains to offer a balanced rather than exaggerated view of this composer's strengths and weaknesses.

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 03:57:11 AM
Please. Noble as all these sentiments undoubtedly are, you are all overlooking the fact that Mr. Poju has insisted on referring to those who do not share his peculiar tastes as "brainwashed" and incapable of experiencing music with the fine degree of "sophistication" that only the "free-thinking" Poju brings to the table. He has also insisted on hijacking threads, such as the recent Bruckner/Mahler discussion, to turn them into referenda on the music of Edward Elgar. Had he not insisted at every turn on being provoking, had he simply stated he thinks Elgar's music is underrated and why, he could have made a better life for himself on this forum. But if someone is going to start calling experienced listeners "brainwashed" and the like, and will not desist despite all attempts to reason with him, he can't be too surprised if others fight back.

You're right, but it does hinder anybody elses ability to discuss him without each good post being seperated by sniping :( It's obvious that he's not going to change his opinion, no matter how many people try to engage with him. I think that people have realised this, as serious attempts have turned into what looks to me like an almost knee-jerk response by some people to make unhelpful and negative posts any time Elgar is mentioned, and I can't see that there will ever be an end to them unless people realise that it's not good to continue in this way: they've made their point (that they consider Poju's opinions wrong, and that they dislike his attitude), but continuing to post in the way they currently are is just hurting everybody else from talking about Elgar WITHOUT overrating him...

It's strange that I have a problem with this, as Elgar probably isn't among my top 25 composers, but am quite aware that it has become difficult for anybody to discuss him, and don't want him to be spoilt by one person, and an OTT reaction to them. I don't get annoyed at things he says that I don't agree with (eg. my love of Haydn, vs. his constant claims of the music being too simple) - I find them fun in some ways, and hope that people who cannot be amused can simply ignore him :-X

Quote from: Lethe on November 13, 2007, 04:35:47 AM
You're right, but it does hinder anybody elses ability to discuss him without each good post being seperated by sniping :( It's obvious that he's not going to change his opinion, no matter how many people try to engage with him. I think that people have realised this, as serious attempts have turned into what looks to me like an almost knee-jerk response by some people to make unhelpful and negative posts any time Elgar is mentioned, and I can't see that there will ever be an end to them unless people realise that it's not good to continue in this way: they've made their point (that they consider Poju's opinions wrong, and that they dislike his attitude), but continuing to post in the way they currently are is just hurting everybody else from talking about Elgar WITHOUT overrating him...

It's strange that I have a problem with this, as Elgar probably isn't among my top 25 composers, but am quite aware that it has become difficult for anybody to discuss him, and don't want him to be spoilt by one person, and an OTT reaction to them. I don't get annoyed at things he says that I don't agree with (eg. my love of Haydn, vs. his constant claims of the music being too simple) - I find them fun in some ways, and hope that people who cannot be amused can simply ignore him :-X

You can be my lawyer my friend, your arguing is sound....

Quote from: Lethe on November 13, 2007, 04:35:47 AMI think that people have realised this, as serious attempts have turned into what looks to me like an almost knee-jerk response by some people to make unhelpful and negative posts any time Elgar is mentioned, and I can't see that there will ever be an end to them unless people realise that it's not good to continue in this way: they've made their point (that they consider Poju's opinions wrong, and that they dislike his attitude), but continuing to post in the way they currently are is just hurting everybody else from talking about Elgar WITHOUT overrating him...

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 02:47:19 AM
About that we should be mild with Poju! But taste is very personal, so I leave Poju the room for that.

Harry, you are a little disingenuous here.  There is no one, not a man jack of us, but would gladly allow Poju perfect freedom to like what music soever.

Everyone knows there are other aspects to Poju's spam, so I won't recapitulate them here.

Also, you seemed to think that Herzog's post about the Smoking Cantata was "Elgar-bashing";  imagining slights where there are none is no virtue.

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2007, 04:48:54 AM
Also, you seemed to think that Herzog's post about the Smoking Cantata was "Elgar-bashing";  imagining slights where there are none is no virtue.

That was a slight. His sense of humor tends to mockery, so he mentions the Smoking Cantata as if to say, "as if I would ever listen to THAT!"

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 03:57:11 AM
Please. Noble as all these sentiments undoubtedly are, you are all overlooking the fact that Mr. Poju has insisted on referring to those who do not share his peculiar tastes as "brainwashed" and incapable of experiencing music with the fine degree of "sophistication" that only the "free-thinking" Poju brings to the table. He has also insisted on hijacking threads, such as the recent Bruckner/Mahler discussion, to turn them into referenda on the music of Edward Elgar. Had he not insisted at every turn on being provoking, had he simply stated he thinks Elgar's music is underrated and why, he could have made a better life for himself on this forum. But if someone is going to start calling experienced listeners "brainwashed" and the like, and will not desist despite all attempts to reason with him, he can't be too surprised if others fight back.

What he said!  The instigator is Poju.  For nearly two years others have been very patient with him.  His inability to learn and to modify the offensive cast of his comments has long suggested an organic disorder.  Asbergers Syndrome seems a likely candidate.  Perhaps a little more compassion would not be misplaced.

Quote from: longears on November 13, 2007, 05:04:32 AM
His inability to learn and to modify the offensive cast of his comments has long suggested an organic disorder.  Asbergers Syndrome seems a likely candidate.  Perhaps a little more compassion would not be misplaced.

If it's an actual disorder, it must be more serious than AS, as I am fine despite that :D (Or so I would like to think.)

Quote from: Corey on November 13, 2007, 04:57:36 AM
That was a slight. His sense of humor tends to mockery, so he mentions the Smoking Cantata as if to say, "as if I would ever listen to THAT!"

With respect, friends, that is not how I read it.  His query was a joke, to be sure;  but I don't think that even the element of mockery in that joke is carrying quite that baggage.

Gosh, I have even been known to joke about Stravinsky ere now.

Quote from: Lethe on November 13, 2007, 05:06:43 AM
If it's an actual disorder, it must be more serious than AS, as I am fine despite that :D (Or so I would like to think.)

I'll vouch for your character, Lethe  0:)

Quote from: Corey on November 13, 2007, 04:57:36 AM
That was a slight. His sense of humor tends to mockery, so he mentions the Smoking Cantata as if to say, "as if I would ever listen to THAT!"

I don't know what the Smoking Cantata thing is all about. Herzog, or D Minor, or whatever he chooses to call himself of late, strikes me as a mischievous but not fundamentally malicious individual. And like most mischievous people, he cannot resist having a little fun when confronted with pomposity and self-importance.

One reason I like the Smoking Cantata is, it demonstrates that Elgar had a nimble and creative sense of humor, something often lacking in zealous admirers.

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2007, 04:48:54 AM
Harry, you are a little disingenuous here.  There is no one, not a man jack of us, but would gladly allow Poju perfect freedom to like what music soever.

Everyone knows there are other aspects to Poju's spam, so I won't recapitulate them here.

Also, you seemed to think that Herzog's post about the Smoking Cantata was "Elgar-bashing";  imagining slights where there are none is no virtue.

Karl, I am far from disingenious, I am simply not that kind of person...
Forget all of Poju' spam, if there will be no reaction, there is no action.
Dmitri's post was Elgar bashing, there is no doubt about that in my mind....

Quote from: longears on November 13, 2007, 05:04:32 AM
What he said!  The instigator is Poju.  For nearly two years others have been very patient with him.  His inability to learn and to modify the offensive cast of his comments has long suggested an organic disorder.  Asbergers Syndrome seems a likely candidate.  Perhaps a little more compassion would not be misplaced.

Be 7 times 777 more patient then....
What his abilities ot inabilities are is of no concern, just ignore if you don't like it, and the problem is gone. Don't try to educate, if it is rejected....
Compassion for the right reason is good, be larger than yourself, and you will perceive rest...

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2007, 05:36:02 AM
One reason I like the Smoking Cantata is, it demonstrates that Elgar had a nimble and creative sense of humor, something often lacking in zealous admirers.

Yes, so why make fun of it? Especially since it is sung by the character of Sarastrowotanbasilioklingsohrdalandmarcelorovesobiterolfscarpia. :D

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2007, 05:17:57 AM
With respect, friends, that is not how I read it.  His query was a joke, to be sure;  but I don't think that even the element of mockery in that joke is carrying quite that baggage.

Gosh, I have even been known to joke about Stravinsky ere now.

I'll vouch for your character, Lethe  0:)

Well whatever it was or not, it triggered my irritation, hence the thread. I am quite up to the people that want to bash Poju, so you are all invited. You know where to find me.

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2007, 05:36:02 AM
One reason I like the Smoking Cantata is, it demonstrates that Elgar had a nimble and creative sense of humor

Indeedie, he apparently played a lot of practical jokes on people :)

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 02:47:19 AM
Since I don't think in great, greater greatest I tend to agree, with you.

That's also a bit disingenuous coming from someone who writes, "TCHAIKOVSKY, NONE GREATER" in capital letters under his portrait.

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 05:22:35 AM
I don't know what the Smoking Cantata thing is all about. Herzog, or D Minor, or whatever he chooses to call himself of late, strikes me as a mischievous but not fundamentally malicious individual. And like most mischievous people, he cannot resist having a little fun when confronted with pomposity and self-importance.

Dmitri is indeed far from malicious, his ironical sleight was just one to many, that's all.
This has gone far over the borders of a little fun methinks.

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 05:48:05 AM
That's also a bit disingenuous coming from someone who writes, "TCHAIKOVSKY, NONE GREATER" in capital letters under his portrait.

Those who know me, know how to interpretate that Larry.... :)

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2007, 05:36:02 AM
[something often lacking in zealous admirers.]

See, Karl, that is not necesarry....
Poju has enough humor, believe me...

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 05:50:36 AM
See, Karl, that is not necesarry....
Poju has enough humor, believe me...

See, Harry, I spoke generally for a reason.

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 05:48:16 AM
Dmitri is indeed far from malicious, his ironical sleight was just one to many, that's all.
This has gone far over the borders of a little fun methinks.

Please point me to the thread where this tragic event took place.

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 05:50:36 AM
See, Karl, that is not necesarry....
Poju has enough humor, believe me...

I have yet to see the slightest sign of a sense of humor from the gentleman.

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 05:46:37 AM
Well whatever it was or not, it triggered my irritation

Harry, you ask us to honor your irritation;  yet you absolutely discount the irritation which Poju inflicts on others.

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2007, 06:01:31 AM
Harry, you ask us to honor your irritation;  yet you absolutely discount the irritation which Poju inflicts on others.

Bingo.

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2007, 06:01:31 AM
Harry, you ask us to honor your irritation;  yet you absolutely discount the irritation which Poju inflicts on others.

That I do not, I simply ask you all to ignore, what leads obviously to rupture....

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2007, 05:57:57 AM
See, Harry, I spoke generally for a reason.

As I too my friend, I am not in the habit of doing otherwise...

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 03:09:29 AM
Lighten up, y'all. Poju gives as good as he gets.

I'm surprised to read the above.  The way I see it, 71dB's bashing is immature and generally ridiculous.  What he gets back is much stronger and vile than his own rantings.

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 05:59:42 AM
I have yet to see the slightest sign of a sense of humor from the gentleman.

Then common man, and try to know me better... as Christmas past said to Scrooge.... :)

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 06:02:19 AM
Bingo.

What bingo...I don't see bingo, don't you have anything stronger as a old men's game....

Elgar is at least as good a composer as Dittersdorf, right?

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2007, 06:11:39 AM
Elgar is at least as good a composer as Dittersdorf, right?

Common Karl, this is the kind of rant I am exploding about, for heavens sake stop that.
Great greater greatest, it is of no interest to me....
You are a good composer, that is how I perceive your compositions....
Must I conclude that it is less as any other composers around.
No, I will not, for me it is good, whatever....

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2007, 06:11:39 AM
Elgar is at least as good a composer as Dittersdorf, right?

That I would certainly agree to . . . .

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 06:16:47 AM
Common Karl, this is the kind of rant I am exploding about, for heavens sake stop that.
Great greater greatest, it is of no interest to me....
You are a good composer, that is how I perceive your compositions....
Must I conclude that it is less as any other composers around.
No, I will not, for me it is good, whatever....

"ELGAR, NONE GREATER"?

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 06:16:57 AM
That I would certainly agree to . . . .

And thereby you are doing yourself no service at all...

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 06:18:03 AM
"ELGAR, NONE GREATER"?

You seem to read only the literal interpretations, and I asure you there are more.
You seem to have as little ammunition against me, as you have against Poju.
That's a sigh of weakness, common I like a good fight with words...or otherwise....

Quote from: Lethe on November 13, 2007, 01:10:44 AM
Amazing works by Elgar that would be hard for many fans of romantic music to dislike:

Serenade for string orchestra, Op.20 (revised version of Three Pieces for string orchestra, 1888-92)
Variations on an Original Theme (Enigma) for orchestra, Op.36 (1899)
Sea Pictures, Song cycle for contralto and orchestra, Op.37 (1897-99)
Cockaigne (In London Town), Overture for orchestra, Op.40 (1900-01)
In the South (Alassio), Concert Overture for orchestra, Op.50 (1903-04)
Introduction and Allegro for string quartet and string orchestra, Op.47 (1904-05)
Falstaff, Symphonic Study for orchestra, Op.68 (1913)
Sospiri for string orchestra and harp, Op.70 (1914)
Sonata for violin and piano, Op.82 (1918)
String Quartet in E minor, Op.83 (1918)
Piano Quintet in A minor, Op.84 (1918-19)
Concerto for cello and orchestra in E minor, Op.85 (1918-19)

Other works which many people like, but more find less good:

The Dream of Gerontius, Oratorio for soloists, chorus and orchestra, Op.38 (1899-1900)
Pomp and Circumstance, Marches No.1-6 for orchestra, Op.39 (1901-1930; sketches, elaborated by Anthony Payne 2005-06)
Symphony No.1 in A flat for orchestra, Op.55 (1907-08)
Concerto for violin and orchestra in B minor, Op.61 (1909-10)
Symphony No.2 in E flat for orchestra, Op.63 (1909-11)
Symphony No 3 for orchestra, Op.88 (sketches, 1932-34, elaborated by Anthony Payne 1972-97)

Interesting lists!  On the whole sound;  though to my tastes, the Piano Quintet belongs on the B list, and the Violin Concerto on the A list.  Much as I like Gerontius, I couldn't argue for an upgrade. Yet. Maybe this spring's performance will be the catalyst  :D

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 06:16:47 AM
Great greater greatest, it is of no interest to me....
You are a good composer, that is how I perceive your compositions....
Must I conclude that it is less as any other composers around.
No, I will not, for me it is good, whatever....

By that logic, any music is as good as any other music. I don't believe that, and some composers have an annoying habit of writing music that is superior to others. I don't dispute anyone's liking any music they want, but if you can't perceive a qualitative difference between the cantatas of Bruhns and those of Bach, or the symphonies of Dittersdorf and those of Beethoven, then I have to question your powers of judgment.

You got Harry so riled up, he's not italicizing.  ;D

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2007, 06:22:57 AM
and the Violin Concerto on the A list.

If only for the cadenza in the final movement.

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 06:21:41 AM
You seem to read only the literal interpretations, and I asure you there are more.
You seem to have as little ammunition against me, as you have against Poju.
That's a sigh of weakness, common I like a good fight with words...or otherwise....

But I'm not sighing at all, quite the contrary . . . .

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2007, 06:22:57 AM
Interesting lists!  On the whole sound;  though to my tastes, the Piano Quintet belongs on the B list, and the Violin Concerto on the A list.  Much as I like Gerontius, I couldn't argue for an upgrade. Yet. Maybe this spring's performance will be the catalyst  :D

With KH's emendations, that would be my list more or less too, with Sea Pictures decidedly getting a B.

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 06:23:39 AM
By that logic, any music is as good as any other music. I don't believe that, and some composers have an annoying habit of writing music that is superior to others. I don't dispute anyone's liking any music they want, but if you can't perceive a qualitative difference between the cantatas of Bruhns and those of Bach, or the symphonies of Dittersdorf and those of Beethoven, then I have to question your powers of judgment.

Common Larry we had this discussion before, that is leading nowhere...
Whatever Poju can or cannot, that is not the issue.
Powers of judgement, wow, do you have them, or I, or Poju, and is that the absolute truth concerning judgement?
What goes for you or others, may be a different kettle of fish for me....

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 06:28:52 AM
Powers of judgement, wow, do you have them, or I, or Poju, and is that the absolute truth concerning judgement?

Well, I know you don't . . . .   :D

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 06:30:53 AM
Well, I know you don't . . . .   :D

Well good for you, and to bad for me, not that it doesn't bother me.
Maybe you should sit on the right side then, so you may judge?

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2007, 06:11:39 AM
Elgar is at least as good a composer as Dittersdorf, right?

No Elgar's better.

Ditters is the true poster child of mediocrity.

Quote from: johnQpublic on November 13, 2007, 06:38:25 AM

Ditters is the true poster child of mediocrity.

There are many that enjoy Dittersdorf, and the term mediocrity holds no meaning.
I love the music from Dittersdorf as much as Elgar's....
I simply do not compare. I like it so its good...for me....

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 06:35:12 AM
Well good for you, and to bad for me, not that it doesn't bother me.
Maybe you should sit on the right side then, so you may judge?

No. And for someone who claims he's not being interpreted correctly, you ought to make sure you're interpreting others correctly. My position is and always has been, as I've stated frequently on these forums, that the music that is most valuable is that which has stood the test of time because the collective judgment of generations of discriminating music lovers has so found it. It is not my personal opinion that matters at all in the matter, still less the opinion of "freethinkers" who parade their peculiar tastes as if they were gospel.

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 06:41:10 AM
There are many that enjoy Dittersdorf, and the term mediocrity holds no meaning.
I love the music from Dittersdorf as much as Elgar's....
I simply do not compare. I like it so its good...for me....

Precisely. Your stated policy is that you do not discriminate. Apparently no music is better than any other to you (except, it would seem, Mozart's operas, which you give away, and anything involving sopranos). A purely solipsistic approach.

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 06:41:10 AM
There are many that enjoy Dittersdorf, and the term mediocrity holds no meaning.

The two parts of that sentence do not match as you think they might, Harry.

Quote from: johnQpublic on November 13, 2007, 06:38:25 AM
Ditters is the true poster child of mediocrity.

Sure to be a crowded poster...

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 06:43:36 AM
No. And for someone who claims he's not being interpreted correctly, you ought to make sure you're interpreting others correctly. My position is and always has been, as I've stated frequently on these forums, that the music that is most valuable is that which has stood the test of time because the collective judgment of generations of discriminating music lovers has so found it. It is not my personal opinion that matters at all in the matter, still less the opinion of "freethinkers" who parade their peculiar tastes as if they were gospel.

Okay if I interpretate wrong I stand corrected, sure I will.
Test of time however doesn't mean automatically that is good or bad, even if a lot of people think its good., or bad..
Then Johann Strauss music is very good, cause a lot of people love it, and so it has stood the test of time....
Thanks to Andre....!
I am a bit of a freethinker also Larry, we tend to side.... :)

Quote from: springrite on November 13, 2007, 06:48:52 AM
Sure to be a crowded poster...

And conversely, a pedastal can only hold but a few.

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 06:45:22 AM
Precisely. Your stated policy is that you do not discriminate. Apparently no music is better than any other to you (except, it would seem, Mozart's operas, which you give away, and anything involving sopranos). A purely solipsistic approach.

Well I am sorry, but somehow these things are not to be connected in this way.
The discrimination is mine, and I let other people love it, so I send it to people that enjoy it, I simply don't.
That is not a statement about the quality of the music, simply my opinion....

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2007, 06:47:08 AM
The two parts of that sentence do not match as you think they might, Harry.

Well in my perception they do...... :)

Quote from: johnQpublic on November 13, 2007, 06:53:45 AM
And conversely, a pedastal can only hold but a few.

;D ;D ;D

Wow!  :o

Thanks Harry for your support! It's not easy to defend a guy like me. If you wonder why I have been quiet here lately it's because I started an employment program that hopefully brings me a new job. I am busy these days.

I admit I have been a jackass. I hope my increased absence will stop all the pointless Elgar discussion and people could talk about this composer again without bashing. I am studying marketing in my program so hopefully I learn how to promote Elgar in ways that do not irritate people.

I talk about free-thinking. I really feel people in general are not that free mentally. Some people believe in authorities, others in established interpretations. I was raised up in a family where everything was questioned and what is said is more important than who says it. It's in my personality to provoke people to free their thinking, to see the forest without the trees. I know people are annoyed by this but this has been normal to me my whole life. I have been different always.

Quote from: 71 dB on November 13, 2007, 07:04:43 AM
Thanks Harry for your support! It's not easy to defend a guy like me.

It's all right; Harry thinks everyone is a great guy. It's nothing personal, Poju  ;D

Quote from: 71 dB on November 13, 2007, 07:04:43 AM
I talk about free-thinking. I really feel people in general are not that free mentally.

Now, take a good long look in the mirror, and say that.

That's the boy!

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2007, 07:09:03 AM
It's all right; Harry thinks everyone is a great guy. It's nothing personal, Poju  ;D

Now, take a good long look in the mirror, and say that.

That's the boy!

I have to object Karl, I don't think everyone is a great guy, far from it, but I hate it when stronger boys attack someone who cannot defend him self as he should. But Poju will learn how to do that, in the mean time I help him.....
Give love, and you meet love...most of the time...

Quote from: 71 dB on November 13, 2007, 07:04:43 AM
Wow!  :o

Thanks Harry for your support! It's not easy to defend a guy like me.

Your welcome Poju, and you know they are all bears without teeth or claws, so it was a easy game....

Quote from: 71 dB on November 13, 2007, 07:04:43 AM
Wow!  :o


I really feel people in general are not that free mentally. Some people believe in authorities,

You hit the nail right on its head Poju, that is absolutely true!

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2007, 07:09:03 AM
It's all right; Harry thinks everyone is a great guy. It's nothing personal, Poju  ;D

He certainly doesn't think I'm a great guy . . . .

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 07:15:45 AM
Your welcome Poju, and you know they are all bears without teeth or claws, so it was a easy game....

Surely, the danger of a bear doesn't lie solely in its teeth or claws!

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 07:14:11 AM
. . . I hate it when stronger boys attack someone who cannot defend him self as he should.

But that description of Poju's activities here is all vapor, Harry:

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 03:57:11 AM
Please. Noble as all these sentiments undoubtedly are, you are all overlooking the fact that Mr. Poju has insisted on referring to those who do not share his peculiar tastes as "brainwashed" and incapable of experiencing music with the fine degree of "sophistication" that only the "free-thinking" Poju brings to the table. He has also insisted on hijacking threads, such as the recent Bruckner/Mahler discussion, to turn them into referenda on the music of Edward Elgar. Had he not insisted at every turn on being provoking, had he simply stated he thinks Elgar's music is underrated and why, he could have made a better life for himself on this forum. But if someone is going to start calling experienced listeners "brainwashed" and the like, and will not desist despite all attempts to reason with him, he can't be too surprised if others fight back.

And Poju has at least some sense of his own culpability here:

Quote from: 71 dB on November 13, 2007, 07:04:43 AM
I admit I have been a jackass.

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 07:19:40 AM
He certainly doesn't think I'm a great guy . . . .

I think you're a great guy most of the time. :D

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 07:19:40 AM
He certainly doesn't think I'm a great guy . . . .

That's not right Larry, I respect your knowledge, and bright postings about a lot of music.
You are as important a knowledge giver as others I respect....

Quote from: 71 dB on November 13, 2007, 07:04:43 AM
I admit I have been a jackass.

See, there is agreement here!

Quote from: 71 dB on November 13, 2007, 07:04:43 AM
I am studying marketing in my program so hopefully I learn how to promote Elgar in ways that do not irritate people.

A worthy agenda!

Quote from: 71 dB on November 13, 2007, 07:04:43 AM
I talk about free-thinking. I really feel people in general are not that free mentally. Some people believe in authorities, others in established interpretations. I was raised up in a family where everything was questioned and what is said is more important than who says it. It's in my personality to provoke people to free their thinking, to see the forest without the trees. I know people are annoyed by this but this has been normal to me my whole life. I have been different always.

Another variation on: "You're all brainwashed."

Quote from: Don on November 13, 2007, 07:22:46 AM
I think you're a great guy most of the time. :D

I'm just feeling the love . . . .  :D

Quote from: 71 dB on November 13, 2007, 07:04:43 AM
Wow!  :o


I admit I have been a jackass. I

No more than others Poju.....

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2007, 07:20:50 AM
But that description of Poju's activities here is all vapor, Harry:

No, no, no, all rock solid, mind...

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 07:25:04 AM
No more than others Poju.....

...

Quote from: Corey on November 13, 2007, 07:20:25 AM
Surely, the danger of a bear doesn't lie solely in its teeth or claws!

Well the growl wasn't much either, and his speed is of a snails....

Heheh, the most funniest part of all this is that some of those upset at someone for slamming them over not thinking Elgar is great, are the very same ones who (heavily and repeatedly) slam others for thinking a different composer is greater from one in their own pantheon. Hypocricy is annoying, but also can be hilarious, because it's so senseless. It's fine to criticise someone for doing it, but I'd sure love the ones who (maybe correctly) point it out would stop doing it themselves.

I don't know who Poju is - someone I assume has departed - but he may very well have done inappropriate stuff. Telling someone else that they are inferior because they don't think that you're composer of choice is great is stupid. I didn't see anything by this person so I don't know what happened. People shouldn't react that way if someone doesn't like what they like. Hint, hint... whoever this person was, he wasn't the only one doing it, I can tell you that.

One thing I'd suggest, is the old "if you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing at all". I practice this. I've never heard one thing I ever liked by Bruckner, so I don't post to Bruckner threads. Maybe if I had a question about him I would, but I don't go on those threads talking about how I don't like him. I find it a pointless insertion of negativity. People clearly wanted a positive discussion about Bruckner, and more power to them. If someone starts a thread about, say, Elgar, though, the negativity can quickly rush in. Why do this? How about, if you don't like Elgar, don't bother the people who do and who want to talk about him? It's not that disliking is wrong, it's that people tend to be less interested in what you don't like, and it can be a real drag on what otherwise could be positive, informative, and fun for people.

Quote from: JoshLilly on November 13, 2007, 07:29:33 AM
One thing I'd suggest, is the old "if you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing at all". I practice this. I've never heard one thing I ever liked by Bruckner, so I don't post to Bruckner threads. Maybe if I had a question about him I would, but I don't go on those threads talking about how I don't like him. I find it a pointless insertion of negativity. People clearly wanted a positive discussion about Bruckner, and more power to them. If someone starts a thread about, say, Elgar, though, the negativity can quickly rush in. Why do this? How about, if you don't like Elgar, don't bother the people who do and who want to talk about him? It's not that disliking is wrong, it's that people tend to be less interested in what you don't like, and it can be a real drag on what otherwise could be positive, informative, and fun for people.

So in other words, only positive comments about this or that piece of music are allowed in your mind? If you have reservations about a composer or work, just keep 'em to yourself, because otherwise it's a "drag" on the conversation?

For the most part, yes. I have rarely seen anything good come out of it. I'm talking about the "So-and-so is the height of mediocrity" type things. That contributes nothing, and asks for nothing. It's a showstopper and intended to be nothing else.

I have tons of non-positive comments that are allowed in my mind, I just don't type them here, since I don't imagine it would do anybody any good. If I were to go to a Bruckner thread and write some of the things I think about his music, even with the most honest of intentions, it won't help anybody, and will probably just get me a handful of personal attacks. I can't imagine the people who like Bruckner and are using that thread would appreciate the insertion. I can't imagine my post would contribute anything of worth in a factual sense.

Why do it with only a bad outcome possible, and probably not one good thing to come of it?

Quote from: JoshLilly on November 13, 2007, 08:01:25 AM
I can't imagine my post would contribute anything of worth in a factual sense.

You want to contribute something useful? Here? Why?




;D

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 07:47:30 AM
So in other words, only positive comments about this or that piece of music are allowed in your mind? If you have reservations about a composer or work, just keep 'em to yourself, because otherwise it's a "drag" on the conversation?

That's not what we want - is it? I think the rule of thumb should be one of respect. By all means question but not to the point of the disparaging. Unfortunately, people on here are just like they are on other music forums - in other words like people everywhere. Many have their "sacred cows" and beware all those who fail to acquiesce and share the adoration. This is one of the more distasteful traits of human beings I'm afraid. I never did understand why anyone would get so impassioned about someone else's opinion but there you are - there are lots of things I fail to understand about the human race.

On the whole I have to agree with Josh - any sort of negativity can escalate into what you all have witnessed here and as I have done elsewhere on other forums. Better to keep one's dislike to oneself than share it. Although, even I can see the appeal in stating an adverse opinion when all others seem to be of different minds to me - just from the persective of bringing some balance to the proceedings. But that's rather provocative and that's the gist of why these sort of thread to degenerate - it is in people's nature to provoke. Mischief, however, still should be tempered by respect.

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 07:27:19 AM
Well the growl wasn't much either, and his speed is of a snails....

So if there was no real threat in your mind, why did you bother to start this thread, which you no doubt knew would become incendiary?

Quote from: JoshLilly on November 13, 2007, 08:01:25 AM
For the most part, yes. I have rarely seen anything good come out of it. I'm talking about the "So-and-so is the height of mediocrity" type things. That contributes nothing, and asks for nothing. It's a showstopper and intended to be nothing else.

I have tons of non-positive comments that are allowed in my mind, I just don't type them here, since I don't imagine it would do anybody any good. If I were to go to a Bruckner thread and write some of the things I think about his music, even with the most honest of intentions, it won't help anybody, and will probably just get me a handful of personal attacks. I can't imagine the people who like Bruckner and are using that thread would appreciate the insertion. I can't imagine my post would contribute anything of worth in a factual sense.

Why do it with only a bad outcome possible, and probably not one good thing to come of it?

But it is ok to accuse others of "hypocrisy," and of saying things that are "stupid"? Remember, I'm talking to Mr. Positive here.

Quote from: Great Gable on November 13, 2007, 08:07:04 AM
That's not what we want - is it? I think the rule of thumb should be one of respect. By all means question but not to the point of the disparaging. Unfortunately, people on here are just like they are on other music forums - in other words like people everywhere. Many have their "sacred cows" and beware all those who fail to acquiesce and share the adoration. This is one of the more distasteful traits of human beings I'm afraid. I never did understand why anyone would get so impassioned about someone else's opinion but there you are - there are lots of things I fail to understand about the human race.

On the whole I have to agree with Josh - any sort of negativity can escalate into what you all have witnessed here and as I have done elsewhere on other forums. Better to keep one's dislike to oneself than share it.

On the whole I couldn't disagree with Josh more. The idea that we must all walk around with happy smiling faces out of some fear of offending someone's cherished beliefs is not the stuff of a mature intellect. I would think a mature, intelligent discussion of any piece of music or other issue can allow for both praise and criticism of the item under discussion, and as adults we should be open to the possibility that others don't admire everything we do and vice versa. When I led a discussion on Verdi's Falstaff here a year or two ago - a work that I consider one of the high points of 19th century music - there were plenty of critical comments aired about the work. None of these seemed to me insuperable, and I didn't crumble in a heap or break down in tears because some others disagreed with my admiration of this incredible opera, but it was a stimulating challenge to address opposing opinions, and ultimately some of the posters and I had to agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with that, it seems to me.

I suppose when the discussion becomes merely personal or belittling that's another thing, and should be avoided. We all ought to take care not to be personally provoking, though in the heat of the battle that sometimes happens. Honest intellectual disagreement, however, should be encouraged, whether it concerns Bruckner or anything else.

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 08:23:34 AM
On the whole I couldn't disagree with Josh more. The idea that we must all walk around with happy smiling faces out of some fear of offending someone's cherished beliefs is not the stuff of a mature intellect.

Well, you don't appear to be disagreeing with me here at all. I don't hold such an idea. Besides, I was talking specifically about posting in this place, not face-to-face conversations or even one person to another in private communication. If I were to post an honest thread wanting to discuss Dittersdorf, his works, and recordings, do you honestly think that the people who don't like him would be mature and intelligent in that thread?

And yes, hypocrisy applies to some people on this message board. They ridicule someone for doing something that they do.  A lot. That's what hypocrisy means, isn't it?

Elgar is as good a composer as any other composer I do not listen to

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 08:09:14 AM
So if there was no real threat in your mind, why did you bother to start this thread, which you no doubt knew would become incendiary?

To create more breathing room for Elgar my friend.....

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 08:12:21 AM
But it is ok to accuse others of "hypocrisy," and of saying things that are "stupid"? Remember, I'm talking to Mr. Positive here.

We are allowed to say stupid things Larry, even you....... :)

Certainly neither Elliott Carter nor Brian Ferneyhough has written anything more suitable for High School Graduation ceremonies

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 08:23:34 AM
I suppose when the discussion becomes merely personal or belittling that's another thing, and should be avoided. We all ought to take care not to be personally provoking, though in the heat of the battle that sometimes happens. Honest intellectual disagreement, however, should be encouraged, whether it concerns Bruckner or anything else.

Right, and that is exactly what I meant with this thread, to stop this personal harrasment of a poster....
And for the rest I agree with you Larry, odd as it may seem to you....

Quote from: bwv 1080 on November 13, 2007, 08:49:20 AM
Certainly neither Elliott Carter nor Brian Ferneyhough has written anything more suitable for High School Graduation ceremonies

;D ;D ;D

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 08:23:34 AM

I suppose when the discussion becomes merely personal or belittling that's another thing, and should be avoided. We all ought to take care not to be personally provoking, though in the heat of the battle that sometimes happens. Honest intellectual disagreement, however, should be encouraged, whether it concerns Bruckner or anything else.

Agreed, but much of the tenor of the critcism here has been belittling.  Even so, I don't really have any problem with it for a few days in a row.  But this belittling criticism of Elgar and his champion on this list has been going on for weeks.

^It has rather become a bashers bashing thread hasn't it?^

Quote from: Great Gable on November 13, 2007, 08:59:16 AM
^It has rather become a bashers bashing thread hasn't it?^

Nah my friend, this is a friendly and open discussion, no fear..... ;D

Quote from: Don on November 13, 2007, 08:58:01 AM
Agreed, but much of the tenor of the critcism here has been belittling.  Even so, I don't really have any problem with it for a few days in a row.  But this belittling criticism of Elgar and his champion on this list has been going on for weeks.

Exactly....

Quote from: bwv 1080 on November 13, 2007, 08:49:20 AM
Certainly neither Elliott Carter nor Brian Ferneyhough has written anything more suitable for High School Graduation ceremonies

Not even his superb Piano concerto?

Quote from: Great Gable on November 13, 2007, 08:07:04 AM
That's not what we want - is it? I think the rule of thumb should be one of respect.

I completely agree;  and it is the foundation of my objection to coddling Poju (d/b/a 71 dB) in his repeated rants about how anyone who doesn't agree with him (a) has been brainwashed, and (b) would clearly change his tune and agree with Poju, if only that benighted person were a "freethinker," just like Poju.

Quote from: JoshLilly on November 13, 2007, 08:34:54 AM

Well, you don't appear to be disagreeing with me here at all. I don't hold such an idea. Besides, I was talking specifically about posting in this place, not face-to-face conversations or even one person to another in private communication. If I were to post an honest thread wanting to discuss Dittersdorf, his works, and recordings, do you honestly think that the people who don't like him would be mature and intelligent in that thread?

And yes, hypocrisy applies to some people on this message board. They ridicule someone for doing something that they do.  A lot. That's what hypocrisy means, isn't it?

No. Hypocrisy is pretending one has a virtuous character that one does not in fact possess. The congressman or minister who in public attacks homosexual sex while enjoying a boyfriend on the side is a hypocrite. That's the real key to hypocrisy: the pretense of being virtuous when one is not. Simply ridiculing another's actions or beliefs, whether or not one commits the same kind of actions one's self, may be objectionable on other grounds, but is not necessarily being a hypocrite.

As for your "face-to-face" comment, I was speaking metaphorically, as in putting on a happy face within the confines of an Internet forum.

I have no problem with your starting a Dittersdorf thread, but you'll have to expect some degree of honest, mature, and intelligent challenge, and on purely musical grounds.

As for Poju, he'll do fine so long as he lays off the "you're all brainwashed" stuff. Judging from a comment like, "I really feel people in general are not that free mentally," I'm not sure he's there yet.

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 09:19:45 AM

As for Poju, he'll do fine so long as he lays off the "you're all brainwashed" stuff. Judging from a comment like, "I really feel people in general are not that free mentally," I'm not sure he's there yet.

He certainly is not there.  I do wonder about his chronological age.  Assuming he's a young man, he has a wealth of the future in which to straighten himself out.

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 09:19:45 AM
No. Hypocrisy is pretending one has a virtuous character that one does not in fact possess. The congressman or minister who in public attacks homosexual sex while enjoying a boyfriend on the side is a hypocrite. That's the real key to hypocrisy: the pretense of being virtuous when one is not. Simply ridiculing another's actions or beliefs, whether or not one commits the same kind of actions one's self, may be objectionable on other grounds, but is not necessarily being a hypocrite.

All right then, I'll not use that word. Thanks for the correction.

QuoteI have no problem with your starting a Dittersdorf thread, but you'll have to expect some degree of honest, mature, and intelligent challenge, and on purely musical grounds.

But that's one thing right there: it would appear that your idea of bad music is not my idea of bad music. So what are the purely musical grounds on which people can "challenge"? How do you challenge what someone likes?

Quote from: JoshLilly on November 13, 2007, 09:41:42 AMSo what are the purely musical grounds on which people can "challenge"? 

Imaginative usage of harmony, rhythm, structure, melodic design, orchestration, etc. that sets it apart from the ordinary.

I don't care if someone likes mediocre; just don't try to claim ordinary is "great".

Quote from: johnQpublic on November 13, 2007, 09:48:54 AM
Imaginative usage of harmony, rhythm, structure, melodic design, orchestration, etc. that sets it apart from the ordinary.

I don't care if someone likes mediocre; just don't try to claim ordinary is "great".

Entirely to the point, thank you.

Clearly I find Dittersdorf's orchestral music to contain those things, otherwise I wouldn't like it. So why do others seem to not find the same thing, even though they're hearing the same exact music? And it's not mediocre, or ordinary, so if I claim Dittersdorf's Ovid Symphony #5 is great, I'm not claiming something mediocre is great. Actually, I think his best works are not to be found among his symphonies, other than Ovid #2 and Ovid #5.

Quote from: JoshLilly on November 13, 2007, 09:41:42 AM

But that's one thing right there: it would appear that your idea of bad music is not my idea of bad music. So what are the purely musical grounds on which people can "challenge"? How do you challenge what someone likes?

You can't reasonably challenge someone's likes and dislikes. In fact, is challenge the right term when applied to differing opinions in a musical context? After all, if I don't like a composer, on what basis can I challenge another listener. My bias and their's are often going to be diametrically opposite. You can challenge a person's understanding of a work or of a composer's philosophy or anything where ambiguity reigns supreme.

I would hate a situation, and I have encountered this elsewhere, where my opinion of a piece of music is deemed "wrong" by another. If I find Britten, for example, to be dissonant and strident then I am right. But then the person who finds Britten's works to be melodious and mellifluous is also right (however unlikely that may be - only joking)

Quote from: JoshLilly on November 13, 2007, 09:41:42 AM


But that's one thing right there: it would appear that your idea of bad music is not my idea of bad music. So what are the purely musical grounds on which people can "challenge"? How do you challenge what someone likes?

Exactly my point too. :)

Quote from: johnQpublic on November 13, 2007, 09:48:54 AM
Imaginative usage of harmony, rhythm, structure, melodic design, orchestration, etc. that sets it apart from the ordinary.

I don't care if someone likes mediocre; just don't try to claim ordinary is "great".

But who is to judge which is mediocre and which is great? A consensus is not necessarily going to be a correct or incontrovertible point of view.

Quote from: johnQpublic on November 13, 2007, 09:48:54 AM
Imaginative usage of harmony, rhythm, structure, melodic design, orchestration, etc. that sets it apart from the ordinary.

I don't care if someone likes mediocre; just don't try to claim ordinary is "great".

Right, and which definitions you have of what is ordinary and mediocre, is it your personal opinion or something you think because all say so, and so say I? :)

Quote from: JoshLilly on November 13, 2007, 09:52:07 AM
Clearly I find Dittersdorf's orchestral music to contain those things, otherwise I wouldn't like it. So why do others seem to not find the same thing, even though they're hearing the same exact music? And it's not mediocre, or ordinary, so if I claim Dittersdorf's Ovid Symphony #5 is great, I'm not claiming something mediocre is great. Actually, I think his best works are not to be found among his symphonies, other than Ovid #2 and Ovid #5.

Best works, or works you particularly like? So presumably if there are works you like better, there are features in them you would lay on the table in challenging someone who finds D.'s work inferior. And that's how it should be.

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2007, 09:50:15 AM
Entirely to the point, thank you.

The question is, which point.....

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 09:58:32 AM
Best works, or works you particularly like? So presumably if there are works you like better, there are features in them you would lay on the table in challenging someone who finds D.'s work inferior. And that's how it should be.

I can hope someone will listen fairly and like it. I hope this for two reasons:

1) Just to have someone else to talk to positively about it. Positive reinforcement may seem shallow but sometimes it's psychologically enjoyable, as I've found.

2) To get more of the CDs bought, so hopefully more will be made, and I'll have more to listen to.

Sadly, what you run into more here is upfront decisions on a composer, sometimes literally without even hearing one note. Even if you convince the person to listen, they've already had a pre-emptive negative feeling simmering in their head, which is virtually guaranteed to influence or even overwhelm their listening experience.

Quote from: JoshLilly on November 13, 2007, 09:41:42 AM
How do you challenge what someone likes?

I don't challenge your liking it. But I don't believe liking something necessarily indicates its degree of merit. Example: I like The Mikado a great deal more than I like Parsifal. I would never claim The Mikado is the greater of the two works.

In fact, many of the works I consider greatest are not necessarily those I like most. The greatest ones scare me too much. I have to rise up to the occasion if I'm to listen to them, while more likable works can be put on in the background, or don't require the same concentration of mind.

Quote from: JoshLilly on November 13, 2007, 10:01:52 AM
Sadly, what you run into more here is upfront decisions on a composer, sometimes literally without even hearing one note. Even if you convince the person to listen, they've already had a pre-emptive negative feeling simmering in their head, which is virtually guaranteed to influence or even overwhelm their listening experience.

Here you're just grinding an axe and making assumptions. Over the years I've investigated a number of pieces you've enthused over. Some have panned out, not all. For instance, had it not been for you I wouldn't have known the marvelous Vorisek Symphony, a work I always talk up when people want to explore the Classic period beyond H-M-B.

Quote from: Great Gable on November 13, 2007, 09:57:25 AM
But who is to judge which is mediocre and which is great? A

It's called "studying" the scores. Study and the answers shall be revealed.

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 10:05:03 AM
Here you're just grinding an axe and making assumptions.

No.

QuoteExample: I like The Mikado a great deal more than I like Parsifal. I would never claim The Mikado is the greater of the two works.

I guess I really can't relate to this, even though I know a lot of people feel the same way. I've read and heard this for years, and maybe I'll never get it. I suppose people can say anything they want is great.

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 10:02:46 AM
Example: I like The Mikado a great deal more than I like Parsifal. I would never claim The Mikado is the greater of the two works.

Wagner and Sullivan aren't completely disconnected, of course - am I alone in wondering whether 'Behold the Lord High Executioner' is a parody of Wotan and his spear....? ;D

And again as if nothing has happened the one liner rant against Elgar goes on.
I don't think I like it anymore to be on GMG..... :P

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 12:44:36 PM
And again as if nothing has happened the one liner rant against Elgar goes on.

Where?

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 13, 2007, 12:47:05 PM
Where?

On the listening thread.

     It's interesting (to me at least) that a non-mediocrity is the more or less official whipping boy for those who would discipline our tastes. No one wastes time with a Dittersdorf. That's because there's nothing at stake with a real mediocrity. The real reason for Elgar mockery is not some want of merit, but rather a want of coolness. Elgar is the greatest fuddy-duddy of all time, and all the present and former hipsters on this board get a virtual toothache at the thought of him.

      Take another look at that list. Elgar mockery has little to do with what is on it.

       That said, I find some of Elgar clanky, spotty, and unfocussed. Listening to one of his ceremonial pieces recently I got the impression that it was going nowhere, and in all directions at that.

Quote from: drogulus on November 13, 2007, 02:19:36 PM
That said, I find some of Elgar, clanky, spotty, and unfocussed. Listening to one of his ceremonial pieces recently I got the impression that it was going nowhere, and in all directions at that.

Does that make you either a present or a former hipster, and are your remarks intended to discipline our tastes?

I have removed the posts on this thread from this point and apologise to those of you who had written posts that were not part of the problem. I was pretty disgusted at some of the other stuff, insulting and bullying. Any more like that....about anyone; it gets binned.

Mike

Quote from: knight on November 13, 2007, 10:21:06 PM
I have removed the posts on this thread from this point and apologise to those of you who had written posts that were not part of the problem. I was pretty disgusted at some of the other stuff, insulting and bullying. Any more like that....about anyone; it gets binned.

Mike

Well done!  :)

I second that   :) :D ;D

Well I do not know what is removed from my thread, but if Mike is getting angry he is getting even, right. ;D
I will see what it was in my email notification
It was a interesting read what was in my email, and I agree with Mike, some of it was pretty disgusting.
It came from the people I expected this from. Why they lack the ability to discuss fair and square is beyond me, for there was really insulting stuff there, and I did not deserve that. However I am made of sterner stuff these days, and it will not touch me.
But it was a right decision to remove the postings for they were not funny as Thom said.
I am a friendly person, and I would never harm anyone on purpose. Neither did I rant in a negative way about Wagner as Perfect Wagnerite said.
Some of the people are old enough to be wise enough, and not participating in such bashing. The why is really eluding me.....
But I learned a thing or two about some posters that stood in high regard on this forum for me. That has effectively be ended now. And about this I am heartily sorry, I really am....
I leave the thread open, maybe there are posters willing to take up the good work, and give Elgar back his right place...

Quote from: drogulus on November 13, 2007, 02:19:36 PM
I find some of Elgar clanky, spotty, and unfocussed.

I think I am beginning to understand what's the problem. We all have criteria to what is good music. For you good music must be focused, non-clanky and non-spotty. I have completely different rules. I listen to very many music genres. Believe me, Elgar is not clanky, spotty or unfocused compared to Breakbeat (listen to Acen's "Trip to the Moon" and you know what I mean).

I allow music freedom. It can be clanky, spotty, unfocused, crazy, superfast. The only thing that matters is whether I like it or not. I try to understand the musical principles behind the work. Some music is based on clankyness and who am I to tell that's a wrong approach to make interesting music? For me it is horrible to say you can't make art in a certain way!

For me Elgar's music is very focused in it's multidimensional sophistication and it's also just enough "clanky" and "spotty". I will never admit my approach or point of view is wrong. I am very confident I am right saying Elgar was a remarkable composer.

Quote from: 71 dB on November 14, 2007, 12:07:15 AM
I think I am beginning to understand what's the problem. We all have criteria to what is good music. For you good music must be focused, non-clanky and non-spotty. I have completely different rules. I listen to very many music genres. Believe me, Elgar is not clanky, spotty or unfocused compared to Breakbeat (listen to Acen's "Trip to the Moon" and you know what I mean).

I allow music freedom. It can be clanky, spotty, unfocused, crazy, superfast. The only thing that matters is whether I like it or not. I try to understand the musical principles behind the work. Some music is based on clankyness and who am I to tell that's a wrong approach to make interesting music? For me it is horrible to say you can't make art in a certain way!

For me Elgar's music is very focused in it's multidimensional sophistication and it's also just enough "clanky" and "spotty". I will never admit my approach or point of view is wrong. I am very confident I am right saying Elgar was a remarkable composer.

Of course you are right about that. Otherwise textbooks and scholars wouldn't be suggesting Elgar as one of the most significant composers in the 20th century. But what you are wrong about, is that some of the posters here are inable to realize or appreciate what you think is good music because they are "brainwashed". You are in no position (neither is any of us here) to make faulty assumptions or call others bad names  just because they have different tastes. A lot of personal attacks thrown your way were due to anger and frustration caused  by reading your posts about how your favourite composer is somehow better than other's favourite, and how Bruckner wrote his 8th 5 times less sophisticated than an Elgar symphony. You should always keep in mind that you and NO ONE should make big statements like that without support backing themselves up. You and your failure to prove that Elgar was more sophisticated in orchestration with specific examples like posting up a score and discuss about it is the main thing people are after. If you merely stated your views and thoughts about your favourite composer, believe me, 90% or even 95% of the posts against you and Elgar could be prevented, reflected by the number of members here that actually like Elgar deep down.

So you're on the right track, finally--just stay away for a while and let all this madness calm down, you, Elgar haters, admirers, D minor D major, Karl, whoever. And when all of this slowly dies down maybe someone will finally make meaningful Elgar appreciation threads that enable all of us to share our ideas and thoughts on this favourite composers of yours without getting bashed on by the rest of the forum.

That's all I have to say. Hope you have the chance to read it.

Yes, people here are not as brainwashed as I have said but I also want to make clear we ALL are constantly in a danger to be brainwashed. BE AWARE! Every article you read, every commercial you see on TV, every source of (dis)information may try to brainwash you.

Quote from: 71 dB on November 14, 2007, 12:43:02 AM
Yes, people here are not as brainwashed as I have said but I also want to make clear we ALL are constantly in a danger to be brainwashed. BE AWARE! Every article you read, every commercial you see on TV, every source of (dis)information may try to brainwash you.

I'll eat my hat and anyone else's if anyone magages to brainwash me. Trust no-one and believe nothing, that's my motto!

Quote from: Bonehelm on November 14, 2007, 12:33:04 AM
Of course you are right about that. Otherwise textbooks and scholars wouldn't be suggesting Elgar as one of the most significant composers in the 20th century. But what you are wrong about, is that some of the posters here are inable to realize or appreciate what you think is good music because they are "brainwashed". You are in no position (neither is any of us here) to make faulty assumptions or call others bad names  just because they have different tastes. A lot of personal attacks thrown your way were due to anger and frustration caused  by reading your posts about how your favourite composer is somehow better than other's favourite, and how Bruckner wrote his 8th 5 times less sophisticated than an Elgar symphony. You should always keep in mind that you and NO ONE should make big statements like that without support backing themselves up. You and your failure to prove that Elgar was more sophisticated in orchestration with specific examples like posting up a score and discuss about it is the main thing people are after. If you merely stated your views and thoughts about your favourite composer, believe me, 90% or even 95% of the posts against you and Elgar could be prevented, reflected by the number of members here that actually like Elgar deep down.

So you're on the right track, finally--just stay away for a while and let all this madness calm down, you, Elgar haters, admirers, D minor D major, Karl, whoever. And when all of this slowly dies down maybe someone will finally make meaningful Elgar appreciation threads that enable all of us to share our ideas and thoughts on this favourite composers of yours without getting bashed on by the rest of the forum.

That's all I have to say. Hope you have the chance to read it.

If you don't like the way posters write their opinions down, then ignore them, but do not write such angry posts and polute the thing again.
Thank you!

Quote from: 71 dB on November 14, 2007, 12:43:02 AM
Yes, people here are not as brainwashed as I have said but I also want to make clear we ALL are constantly in a danger to be brainwashed. BE AWARE! Every article you read, every commercial you see on TV, every source of (dis)information may try to brainwash you.

That may be Poju, but please stop writings these things. They harm you, and wreck the thread once again.
Thank you.
Back to Elgar and the works he composed.

Quote from: Great Gable on November 14, 2007, 01:09:53 AM
I'll eat my hat and anyone else's if anyone magages to brainwash me. Trust no-one and believe nothing, that's my motto!

Agreed, but the manipulation applied is sometimes on a high level..... :)

Quote from: Harry on November 14, 2007, 02:21:53 AM
Agreed, but the manipulation applied is sometimes on a high level..... :)

And especially NEVER believe anyone at a high level Harry!

Quote from: Great Gable on November 14, 2007, 02:26:23 AM
And especially NEVER believe anyone at a high level Harry!

Well I don't, always follow my own heart, head..... ;D

Quote from: Harry on November 14, 2007, 02:32:24 AM
Well I don't, always follow my own heart, head..... ;D

Quite - don't follow the heart - that way lies ruin

Agreed, back to Elgar.

I find his Dream of Geromtius a very moving piece indeed. I have this recording

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KV88SADGL._AA240_.jpg)

Edward ELGAR The Dream of Gerontius Richard Lewis, Dame Janet Baker, Kim Borg The combined Hallé Choir and Sheffield Philharmonic Chorus Conducted by Sir John Barbirolli EMI CZS5 73579 2; 2 CDs [98:15]

O that voice of Dame Janet Baker, unsurpassed I think.

Quote from: Thom on November 14, 2007, 02:42:02 AM
Agreed, back to Elgar.

I find his Dream of Geromtius a very moving piece indeed. I have this recording

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KV88SADGL._AA240_.jpg)

Edward ELGAR The Dream of Gerontius Richard Lewis, Dame Janet Baker, Kim Borg The combined Hallé Choir and Sheffield Philharmonic Chorus Conducted by Sir John Barbirolli EMI CZS5 73579 2; 2 CDs [98:15]

O that voice of Dame Janet Baker, unsurpassed I think.

The pieces I heard from it, may well be the igniting of buying this work.
It is indeed beautifully written. :)

Quote from: Harry on November 14, 2007, 02:46:59 AM
The pieces I heard from it, may well be the igniting of buying this work.
It is indeed beautifully written. :)

I know I am (and I think you also) not always inclined towards vocal works but this is definitely worth while.

It may have been reported before on this Forum but on Youtube you can find real footage of the grand old man himself. See for instance:

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=gxqFdcZz974 (http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=gxqFdcZz974)

Good link Thom, I urge everyone with a interest to see it....

Quote from: Harry on November 14, 2007, 03:19:23 AM
Good link Thom, I urge everyone with a interest to see it....

and there are more! For instance, at home in his garden playing with his spaniel Marco. Endearing footage.

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=0y5LtycnkoM (http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=0y5LtycnkoM)

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 10:46:27 PM
Well I do not know what is removed from my thread, but if Mike is getting angry he is getting even, right. ;D
I will see what it was in my email notification
It was a interesting read what was in my email, and I agree with Mike, some of it was pretty disgusting.
It came from the people I expected this from. Why they lack the ability to discuss fair and square is beyond me, for there was really insulting stuff there, and I did not deserve that. However I am made of sterner stuff these days, and it will not touch me.
But it was a right decision to remove the postings for they were not funny as Thom said.
I am a friendly person, and I would never harm anyone on purpose. Neither did I rant in a negative way about Wagner as Perfect Wagnerite said.
Some of the people are old enough to be wise enough, and not participating in such bashing. The why is really eluding me.....
But I learned a thing or two about some posters that stood in high regard on this forum for me. That has effectively be ended now. And about this I am heartily sorry, I really am....
I leave the thread open, maybe there are posters willing to take up the good work, and give Elgar back his right place...

Very interesting that Harry, who started this thread knowing full well it could devolve into a war, is now playing the wounded innocent.

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 14, 2007, 03:49:14 AM
Very interesting that Harry, who started this thread knowing full well it could devolve into a war, is now playing the wounded innocent.

This is plain simple an invitation to shut down this thread. Very unwise Larry. Please stop it now.

Quote from: Thom on November 14, 2007, 03:52:40 AM
This is plain simple an invitation to shut down this thread. Very unwise Larry. Please stop it now.

To be honest, I think this thread has run its course. Why not decamp to Elgar's Hillside (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.0.html) to continue discussion of the composer and his works?

Quote from: Thom on November 14, 2007, 03:52:40 AM
This is plain simple an invitation to shut down this thread. Very unwise Larry. Please stop it now.

Right. Defend Harry at all costs. I'm done here.

Quote from: Mark on November 14, 2007, 03:56:01 AM
To be honest, I think this thread has run its course. Why not decamp to Elgar's Hillside (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.0.html) to continue discussion of the composer and his works?

There is nothing wrong with this thread, and there is no need to decamp.
If everybody is friendly enough, all will be fine.

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 14, 2007, 03:49:14 AM
Very interesting that Harry, who started this thread knowing full well it could devolve into a war, is now playing the wounded innocent.

I am not playing anything.
But being attacked like this is unnecesarry Larry.
It will solve nothing, and only bring war at our doorstep.

Quote from: Harry on November 14, 2007, 04:01:52 AM
I am not playing anything.
But being attacked like this is unnecesarry Larry.
It will solve nothing, and only bring war at our doorstep.

A war you started. Hypocrite.

Quote from: 71 dB on November 14, 2007, 12:07:15 AM
I am very confident I am right saying Elgar was a remarkable composer.

Well, that is a reasonable statement.

I only wish, Poju, that all your statements on the subject were so reasonable.  Once you get into "brainwashed" or "vibrational field" territory, you seem to have convinced yourself that you have succeeded in nailing jell-o to the wall.

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 14, 2007, 04:03:06 AM
A war you started. Hypocrite.

My thread started out just fine Larry, and I am far from being a Hypocrite.
Look into your own heart my friend, and try to find some warmth for me....

Quote from: karlhenning on November 14, 2007, 04:03:42 AM
Well, that is a reasonable statement.

I only wish, Poju, that all your statements on the subject were so reasonable.  Once you get into "brainwashed" or "vibrational field" territory, you seem to have convinced yourself that you have succeeded in nailing jell-o to the wall.

In time the rough edges Poju possesses will disappear too, I have no fear....

Quote from: Harry on November 14, 2007, 04:04:23 AM
My thread started out just fine Larry, and I am far from being a Hypocrite.
Look into your own heart my friend, and try to find some warmth for me....

Blah blah blah . . .

These are to remarkable recordings I have played the last couple of days, to keep in mind, what we are talking about or should...

And into the bargain these fine interpretations from Solti, for me still on top...

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 14, 2007, 04:11:09 AM
Blah blah blah . . .

The same thing my new godchild is babbling, very interesting Larry ;D ;D

Quote from: Mark on November 14, 2007, 03:56:01 AM
To be honest, I think this thread has run its course. Why not decamp to Elgar's Hillside (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.0.html) to continue discussion of the composer and his works?

Thank heavens for that.

Any Elgar thread, though, tends to suck in the 'Usual Suspects.'

I do not know why, though, have they not had enough or is it a drug of which they must partake?

The detractors, I mean, not those of us who have positive things to say about the music and do not recognise the 'turgid' (the usual cliche) in any of it.

<sigh> :'(

Quote from: Hector on November 14, 2007, 06:24:03 AM
Thank heavens for that.

Any Elgar thread, though, tends to suck in the 'Usual Suspects.'

I do not know why, though, have they not had enough or is it a drug of which they must partake?

The detractors, I mean, not those of us who have positive things to say about the music and do not recognise the 'turgid' (the usual cliche) in any of it.

<sigh> :'(

Good to know you're staying above the fray and not attacking anybody else.

And of course, one must be careful not to express any criticism of this composer; else the Thought Police will come down on you.  :D

Quote from: Bonehelm on November 14, 2007, 12:33:04 AM
Of course you are right about that. Otherwise textbooks and scholars wouldn't be suggesting Elgar as one of the most significant composers in the 20th century. But what you are wrong about, is that some of the posters here are inable to realize or appreciate what you think is good music because they are "brainwashed". You are in no position (neither is any of us here) to make faulty assumptions or call others bad names  just because they have different tastes. A lot of personal attacks thrown your way were due to anger and frustration caused  by reading your posts about how your favourite composer is somehow better than other's favourite, and how Bruckner wrote his 8th 5 times less sophisticated than an Elgar symphony. You should always keep in mind that you and NO ONE should make big statements like that without support backing themselves up. You and your failure to prove that Elgar was more sophisticated in orchestration with specific examples like posting up a score and discuss about it is the main thing people are after. If you merely stated your views and thoughts about your favourite composer, believe me, 90% or even 95% of the posts against you and Elgar could be prevented, reflected by the number of members here that actually like Elgar deep down.

So you're on the right track, finally--just stay away for a while and let all this madness calm down, you, Elgar haters, admirers, D minor D major, Karl, whoever. And when all of this slowly dies down maybe someone will finally make meaningful Elgar appreciation threads that enable all of us to share our ideas and thoughts on this favourite composers of yours without getting bashed on by the rest of the forum.

That's all I have to say. Hope you have the chance to read it.

Very intelligently stated, Bone. And particularly the following:

QuoteYou should always keep in mind that you and NO ONE should make big statements like that without support backing themselves up. You and your failure to prove that Elgar was more sophisticated in orchestration with specific examples like posting up a score and discuss about it is the main thing people are after.

Quote from: Hector on November 14, 2007, 06:24:03 AM
Any Elgar thread, though, tends to suck in the 'Usual Suspects.'

Well, and this isn't your average "any Elgar thread";  its entire raison d'être, stated in Post Numero Uno, is a Poju Support Group (puh-leeeze):

Quote from: Harry on November 13, 2007, 12:58:56 AM
That I side with Poju in his admiration for this composer may be clear.

"raison d'être"


Not a bad beer at all. (http://www.dogfish.com/brewings/Year_Round_Beers/Raison_DEtre/7/index.htm)  I'm not usually into the flavoured gimmicky stuff, but there are about 3 or 4 that I like, and this one stands at the top. Mmm...beer. That's what this thread really needs.

Quote from: Harry on November 14, 2007, 04:01:52 AM
It will solve nothing, and only bring war at our doorstep.

Quote from: Larry Rinkel on November 14, 2007, 04:03:06 AM
A war you started. Hypocrite.

Elgar wars?  Are you guys serious?  It's going to get dangerous in here.  Has anybody died yet in a GMG war?  I think back to the Mahler-Bruckner massacre with a tear in my eye.  This good taste v. good taste has to stop. 

Yep. These Elgar threads can drive a man to drink.

(http://www.animationplayhouse.com/beer_drinking.gif)

Quote from: JoshLilly on November 14, 2007, 07:22:36 AM
"raison d'être"


Not a bad beer at all. (http://www.dogfish.com/brewings/Year_Round_Beers/Raison_DEtre/7/index.htm)  I'm not usually into the flavoured gimmicky stuff, but there are about 3 or 4 that I like, and this one stands at the top. Mmm...beer. That's what this thread really needs.

You mean a reason for existence? :D There was a time Dogfish wouldn't distribute to New York, and now I find they're got a beer distributor not 15 miles from where I live. Must give that raison d'être a try. (Burp.)

They're a winner because of their 90-Minute IPA. Not a true IPA in that British sense, but better (more malt). It's a real masterpiece. I can't recommend it highly enough. I don't think you'll be disappointed if you try that one. It's even more subtle, nuanced, and flavourful than the Raison D'être.

Quote from: JoshLilly on November 14, 2007, 07:33:30 AM
They're a winner because of their 90-Minute IPA. Not a true IPA in that British sense, but better (more malt). It's a real masterpiece. I can't recommend it highly enough. I don't think you'll be disappointed if you try that one. It's even more subtle, nuanced, and flavourful than the Raison D'être.

Thank you immensely for that, Joshua! finally, a raison for this thread d'être!

(http://www.patrick.k12.va.us/josh/images/elgar1.jpg)

Quote from: JoshLilly on November 14, 2007, 07:22:36 AM
"raison d'être"


Not a bad beer at all. (http://www.dogfish.com/brewings/Year_Round_Beers/Raison_DEtre/7/index.htm)  I'm not usually into the flavoured gimmicky stuff, but there are about 3 or 4 that I like, and this one stands at the top. Mmm...beer. That's what this thread really needs.

A decent band too... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raison_d'%C3%AAtre_(band)) :P

I'd rather have a beer with Elgar, than read half of any of his threads   8)

This thread demands stronger stuff

(http://www.67wine.com/images/items/full/100409.jpg)

I think Elgar would agree

"After half a bot of this, even the vibrational fields stuff starts to make a little sense . . . ."

This thread is closed, thanks to the usual suspects.
Thank you for again hijjacking this thread.
At least Poju is not responsable this time.
All the people that meant well I thank most kindly.
Those that wrecked it, should be ashamed of themselves.
I know them and I will remember it.