During the Met quiz today, there was a question about good mothers in opera, are there any?
They came up with a paltry two. Butterfly and the mother in Cav. I would add Cornelia in Handel's Julius Caesar and Alice in Falstaff.
The question suggested that mothers were either ignored or evil.....I thought it was an interesting question. There are lots of fathers good or bad. Most opera is written by men, I would have thought some of them would have had a soft spot for the Mother Figure, but seemingly not.
Here are some operas with bad mothers....
Salome
Elektra
Jenufa, one bad and one ineffectual one.
Magic Flute
Medea
Trovatore
Hansel And Gretel have as ineffectual mother, Don Jose's is idealised...off stage. Oedipus Rex....well, what can I say?
Lots of opera with missing mothers.
Aida
Rosenkavalier
Cinderella
Rigoletto
Faust
Boris Godunov
Eugene Onegin
Turn of the Screw
La Fille du Regiment
Simon Boccanegra
Turandot
In all of these there could have been a mother, but for various reasons, they simply are not there.
Is there even one mother in all of Wagner? Just recalled Fricka with all her little Walkure. But just one in his whole output?
At least with fathers there is a balance of good and bad ones, but I wonder why there is such a lack of good ones in opera?
Mike
The two most personal, meaningful - and poignant - syllables in all Ravel, IMO, are the final word of L'Enfant et les Sortileges - 'Maman'. That's not the flippant reply to this interesting question that its brevity suggests. :)
Well, Luke, possibly an effective mother....though she merely sets the plot in motion by locking her child into a room.
Mike
The kid asked for it... ;) But, still, Ravel being who he was, with the preoccupations he had, those lights going on in the house at the end of the opera, and that final 'Maman' to Ravel's favourite descending fourth - it's pretty primal stuff, in Ravel's own terms. She's a faceless figure, of course - neither a terrible mother or an outstanding one, nor really a character at all; but she is representative of archetypal Mother Figure - safety, security, love, forgiveness and so on.
Quote from: knight on April 21, 2007, 01:06:49 PM
Is there even one mother in all of Wagner? Just recalled Fricka with all her little Walkure. But just one in his whole output?
The Valkyries weren't Fricka's. Their mother is Erda.
My error, thanks, yes Erda, mother Erda....can you think of any others in Wagner?
Mike
Quote from: knight on April 21, 2007, 01:28:16 PM
My error, thanks, yes Erda, mother Erda....can you think of any others in Wagner?
Mike
I guess Sieglinde is Siegfried's mother. She is certainly a "good" role.
Parsifal's mother, what's her name...Heart's Sorrow, gets mentioned a lot, but she has no singing role.
Ok, so Marie (Mrs Wozzeck manqué) wasn't the most exemplary of wives, but she was a pretty good mother. When she's not ogling drum majors, she's singing lullabies and telling stories. What more can a kid ask for? ;)
Yes, I was going to suggest Sieglinde...
Interesting that in Eric's Opera (P+M) both parents are deeply ineffectual - symbolic of a stultified state, I suppose, in this case.
Bystrouška's a pretty great mother...while it lasts.
Do we really experience Sieglinda as a mother beyond the embrionic stage. I don't think so....out she goes, but yes she is a mother figure.
Marie, yes, I had forgotten her, a good addition.
MIke
I don't know that Janacek opera at all.
Mike
:o
Actually, whilst we're at it, Mila in Osud seems to be a perfectly fine mother. She also has the distinction of sharing my daughter's name. ;)
Perhaps an Eastern European thing....why so rare that we are getting into relatively obscure territory? If we list fathers we would be here all night.
Mike
Watch what you're calling obscure. >:( $:) ;D Bystrouška = the Vixen, if there was any confusion. She'll bite yer legs... ;D
However, if we're going to complete the set of Janacek mother's, there is the awful example of Katya's mother-in-law, the Kabanicha, every but as nasty a piece as the Kostelnicka in Jenufa.
Yes, I did think of her, but as she was a MIL, the behaviour was no more than to be expected. >:D
Mike
Tony, have you stolen Mike's password? $:)
MIL....LOL
Mike
Should I chime in about mothers in the output of the best opera composer ever? ;)
What about Prince Igor?
Marriage of Figaro?
Quote from: MrOsa on April 21, 2007, 03:52:33 PM
Should I chime in about mothers in the output of the best opera composer ever? ;)
NO!
Te he,
MIke
Well, despite us trying, there is really very little in the cannon about exemplary mothers, no opera gets called after them. Perhaps there is some Soviet-Comunist tale of a self sacrificing mother saving a collective farm by having herself ploughed into the land in act 3, but no one has mentioned it.
There is a distinct gap in the market. We should construct a storyline, (there are some fertile imaginations around here), then post it on the Composing board and see which of our composers is inspired by it.
Mike
Nice idea, Mike...
meantime, I'm trying to find a synopsis of Haba's opera Matka (Mother) ;D
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 21, 2007, 01:25:54 PM
The Valkyries weren't Fricka's. Their mother is Erda.
I've always loved the fact that of the 14 characters in
Walküre, 11 are Wotan's kids, none by his wife. No wonder she's so mad. ;D
Quote from: MrOsa on April 21, 2007, 03:52:33 PM
Should I chime in about mothers in the output of the best opera composer ever? ;)
Yeah but didn't we just talked about Wagner?
Quote from: squeemu on April 21, 2007, 04:23:03 PM
What about Prince Igor?
Marriage of Figaro?
Don't know about
Igor but where is there a mother in
Figaro?
Quote from: Wendell_E on April 22, 2007, 02:21:58 AM
I've always loved the fact that of the 14 characters in Walküre, 11 are Wotan's kids, none by his wife. No wonder she's so mad. ;D
Actually I don't remember the libretto saying ALL the Valkyries were Erda's. In Act III of
Siegfried Erda says that Brunhilde is her child, no mention of the other 8 rank and file Valkyries. Maybe Wotan mentioned something about this in his longer-than-the-Old-Testament rant in Act II of
Walkure but I don't remember.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 22, 2007, 05:27:51 AM
Actually I don't remember the libretto saying ALL the Valkyries were Erda's.
It doesn't, but I let it pass, since the libretto doesn't actually say
who the mother of the others is. No, Wotan doesn't mention it in his wonderfully concise
précis ( ;)) in act II of
Die Walküre. Like Erda, he does say that that Erda's Brünnhilde's mother, but doesn't mention the others:
"mit Liebeszauber
zwang ich die Wala,...
der Welt weisestes Weib
gebar mir, Brünnhilde, dich."
His nex lines are:
"Mit acht Schwestern
zog ich dich auf"
Perhaps he just means Halbschwestern, but it's easy to see how one might think the others are Erda's daughters as well.
A couple of people earlier mentioned the Kostelnička in
Jenůfa as a bad mother. I think she's basically a very good mother, who makes one spectacularly bad decision.
Quote from: Wendell_E on April 22, 2007, 06:22:47 AM
It doesn't, but I let it pass, since the libretto doesn't actually say who the mother of the others is. No, Wotan doesn't mention it in his wonderfully concise précis ( ;)) in act II of Die Walküre. Like Erda, he does say that that Erda's Brünnhilde's mother, but doesn't mention the others:
"mit Liebeszauber
zwang ich die Wala,...
der Welt weisestes Weib
gebar mir, Brünnhilde, dich."
His nex lines are:
"Mit acht Schwestern
zog ich dich auf"
Perhaps he just means Halbschwestern, but it's easy to see how one might think the others are Erda's daughters as well.
A couple of people earlier mentioned the Kostelnička in Jenůfa as a bad mother. I think she's basically a very good mother, who makes one spectacularly bad decision.
Knowing Wotan it is likely that the Valkyries have 9 different mothers.
Maybe someone who knows a thing or two about Norse mythology can tell us whether all the Valkyries have the same mother, since the Ring is based on Norse myths right?
More than once did I try to sort out Wotan's profligate activities without real success; even consultations with the Wagner expert, ACD, still left unanswered questions, - for instance: Did he do it with the Rhinemaidens? - so let's move one to a different scene:
Estonia! Tauno Pylkkänen wrote a powerful opera about Mare and her Son. Mare is trying to save her son's life by betraying his plan to rid the province Livonia of it's tyrant ruler. Her betrayal did indeed save his life, but Imant's failure to kill the tyrant caused him to kill himself, jumping off the castle into the ocean. When the villagers learn of her betrayal Mare is stoned and dying she enters the water to join Imant.
Now there is a legendary mother! :'(
Lis, Very good...but is she a good mother or a bad one? I recall someone in complete exasperation at the plot of Romeo and Juliet commenting, "Damned interfering priests"
Perhaps in this case substitute "Mothers". We could put her in both lists. Perhaps Luke will save the day for Motherhood.
Mike
Quote from: knight on April 22, 2007, 08:15:57 AM
Mike
Sharpening my pencils already, Mike...just let me at a libretto! ;D
I doubt I can plumb my psyche to dredge up any material on a good Mother-figure.....I could do a three act libretto on Mother the Obtuse.
Someone, come on, supply Luke with the wherewithall for his next masterpiece.
Mike
I got a good mother: Tatyana's mother in Eugen Onegin.
I don't remember her mother doing anything, she is more of a background figure at best. The question still holds good as we have not really come up with more than a couple of decent mothers who are main characters in an opera.
Mike
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 22, 2007, 05:21:26 AM
where is there a mother in Figaro?
Figaro is almost forced to marry his own mother. When it is discovered that she is his mother, she decides to get married to Figaro's father and there is much rejoicing!
As I recall they were somewhat estranged, so she does not go into the Good Mother room.
Mike
Quote from: squeemu on April 22, 2007, 12:07:48 PM
Figaro is almost forced to marry his own mother. When it is discovered that she is his mother, she decides to get married to Figaro's father and there is much rejoicing!
Oh yeah ! Isn't that wild !
Figaro I think is the funniest opera I have ever heard.
Quote from: knight on April 22, 2007, 12:12:04 PM
As I recall they were somewhat estranged, so she does not go into the Good Mother room.
Mike
This is true, but she seems to have a desire to fix that by the end ;)
What about the mother in Il Trovatore?
Quote from: Anne on April 22, 2007, 01:21:59 PM
What about the mother in Il Trovatore?
She's not a good mother so she doesn't count.
Quote from: lukeottevanger on April 21, 2007, 01:38:33 PM
Yes, I was going to suggest Sieglinde...
Interesting that in Eric's Opera (P+M) both parents are deeply ineffectual - symbolic of a stultified state, I suppose, in this case.
What country are you referring to? ;)
Obviously,
Suor Angelica is a
very good mother!
I'm sure this will make everyone so pleased. The mother in Amahl and the Night Visitors is a very good loving mother.
Quote from: Anne on April 22, 2007, 01:21:59 PM
What about the mother in Il Trovatore?
This is the mother who throws a baby onto a bonfire! Probably needs a call from social services.
I have never heard the Menotti, I will take your word for it and she can be added to the list of good mothers, though again, the opera is not really about her.
Mike
Mike
"This is the mother who throws a baby onto a bonfire! Probably needs a call from social services."
LOL! I couldn't think of any others. Does that excuse me?
Another verismo mother: Mamma Lucia in Cavalleria Rusticana. A peach of a role for an ageing mezzo. She doesn't get to sing a lot, but still has pivotal scenes, and is still standing as the curtain falls (there are lots of casualties in italian opera) :D.
Yep, she is one of the two that the Met folk came up with in answer to the question.
Mike
One "missing mother" that famously gets mentioned is Aïda's
Quote" AMONASRO
Una larva orribile
Fra l'ombre a noi s'affaccia.
Trema! le scarne braccia...
AIDA
Ah!
AMONASRO
Sul capo tuo lev`o...
AIDA
Padre!
AMONASRO
Tua madre ell'`e...
AIDA
Ah!
AMONASRO
... ravvisala...
AIDA
No!
AMONASRO
Ti maledice...
AIDA
(nel massimo terrore)
Ah no! ah no!
Padre, piet`a! piet`a!
AMONASRO
(respingendola)
Non sei mia figlia!
Dei Faraoni tu sei la schiava!"
This is probably a dramatic baritone's juiciest moment in all opera.
In Andrea Chénier, Maddalena tell Gérard that her mother died while saving her.
Fidès in Le Prophète is a good mother, and a major role.
True. A Horne specialty.
Then there's Handel's Rodelinda. True, she does tell the villain she'll marry him only on the condition that he kill her young son Flavio in front of her, but you didn't ask for a perfect mother. And the kid's still alive at the end (and the villain isn't).
Well, how about a combo: Handel's Solomon, in the famous Judgment Scene: the good and the bad harlot, one a real (good) mother, the other a fake (bad) one!
The figures are going up; so not all these women have gone to the bad.
I have never heard more than a couple of arias from Le Prophète.
I think we now have about eight decent mothers from the whole cannon, not many at all.
Mike
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on April 22, 2007, 04:22:58 PM
Well, how about a combo: Handel's Solomon, in the famous Judgment Scene: the good and the bad harlot, one a real (good) mother, the other a fake (bad) one!
Is Solomon an Opera? The harlots only take up one scene from the entire work. The 'good' one shows bad judgement in forming a friendship with the evil one. So, another mother who needs a visit from social services and probably the child will really have to go into care.
Mike
Does it have to be a mother with a singing role, or is it acceptable if she is being talked about and praised? I am thinking of Parsifal's mother; great story being told about her by Kundry.
Another Handel one: Agrippina succesfully schemes to put her son Nero on the throne. Of course, the historical Agrippina was later put to death by Nero. How sharper than a serpent's tongue...
I'd bet that Amelia in Un Ballo in Maschera's a good mom.
Elvira Griffiths in An American Tragedy.
La Cieca in La Gioconda.
Well, I have been running it like it was my list, which of course it is not, but continuing in my role of arbiter....
I do think the mother has to have a major singing part.
I have seen Gioconda, but had to look it up to remind myself of the plot...and what a plot!
http://www.operatoday.com/content/2006/07/ponchielli_la_g.php
They all have a very busy time in that opera! Boito crafted the libretto, it reads like 12 people have had a hand in the plotting. Yes, I believe Gioconda's mother goes into the 'good' box.
An American Tragedy is a new one on me....do tell in what way this mother fits our bill?
Mike
Quote from: knight on April 22, 2007, 11:30:36 PM
An American Tragedy is a new one on me....do tell in what way this mother fits our bill?
At the opening of the opera, we see Elvira Griffiths, a missionary, leading her son Clyde and his siblings in a hymn. The rest of the opera takes place many years later. Clyde Griffiths has murdered his pregnant girlfriend and is awaiting trial. Excerpts from the synopsis at the Met's website:
QuoteElvira arrives and asks to see Samuel [Clyde's uncle, a rich and influential man] in private. She begs him to come to the courthouse and show his faith in Clyde. Samuel replies that in paying for nephew's defense, he has done all he can.
In Clyde's jail cell, Elvira visits her son, who continues to protest his innocence. Elvira compares his sufferings with Christ's, saying he must bear his cross, but adds that if he tells the truth about his change of heart, the jury will understand....
[After Clyde is convicted] Elvira comes to pray with him, he confesses at last that he could have saved Roberta. Elvira, weeping, reminds him that the mercy of God is equal to every sin. As Clyde approaches the electric chair, his youthful self joins him in his old childhood hymn.
Dolora Zajick created the role of Elvira at the operas premiere. You can read the whole synopsis here: http://www.metoperafamily.org/metopera/history/stories/synopsis.aspx?id=114 (http://www.metoperafamily.org/metopera/history/stories/synopsis.aspx?id=114)
Wendell, I think we would have to say she qualifies, thanks.
The roll call so far of the good ones...tell me if I have missed your's out.
Butterfly, though killing yourself and leaving an orphan to a wastrell father and an unknown step-mother does not look like a smart move.
Cornelia in Julius Caesar
Alice in Falstaff
Marie in Wozzeck
Bystrouška in Cunning Little Vixen
Mila in Osud
The Mother in Amahl and the Night Visitors, providing she gets good air time???
Mamma Lucia in Cavalleria Rusticana
Fidès in Le Prophète
La Cieca in La Gioconda
Elvira Griffiths in An American Tragedy
Militrissa in "The Tzar Saltan" EDIT, see further down, can't keep saying 'no' to val.
Total 12.
Pending
Matka
Mike
Angelica, in Puccini's Soror Angelica is a touching mother.
And in Die Soldaten, die Countess de la Roche is a very intelligent and nice person, when she offers her help to the poor Marie.
Let's not forget the most fertile father/mother of all operas: the Husband in Poulenc's Les Mamelles de Tiresias.
Quote from: val on April 23, 2007, 04:07:56 AM
Angelica, in Puccini's Soror Angelica is a touching mother.
And in Die Soldaten, die Countess de la Roche is a very intelligent and nice person, when she offers her help to the poor Marie.
Let's not forget the most fertile father/mother of all operas: the Husband in Poulenc's Les Mamelles de Tiresias.
Val, You are playing some wild cards here.....
"Suor Angelica...
The story is set in a convent towards the end of the 17th century. Sister Angelica has been in the convent for seven years at the bidding of her aristocratic family. Despite her life of prayer she cannot forget the child she had from an illicit relationship which led to her retirement from the world. She is very excited when her aunt the princess comes to visit her and have her sign a document concerning the division of the family estate. During their conversation her aunt coldly tells Angelica that her child has died. Angelica weeps, invoking her son. In desperation in the evening she distills a poison and drinks it, but as she is dying she prays to the Blessed Virgin who appears, surrounded by light, pushing a child in front of herself."
She reads to me as a waste of space, she is mother biologically and by longing...but as was said in another context, "Just sitting your arse on a purple cushion, does not make you a king!"
Countess de la Roche is not Marie's mother, her own does not register in the piece.....so, nup.
"the most fertile father/mother of all operas: the Husband in Poulenc's Les Mamelles de Tiresias."
"Act II The curtain rises to cries of "Papa!" The husband's project has been a spectacular success, and he has given birth to 40,049 children in a single day. A visiting Parisian journalist asks how he can afford to feed the brood, but the husband explains that the children have all been very successful in careers in the arts, and have made him a rich man with their earnings. After chasing the journalist off, the husband decides to raise a journalist of his own, but is not completely pleased with the results."
Ah, yes, right...I am thinking not, though it was ingenious to put that one forward. He/She was certainly fecund.
Nice try, any more up your sleeve?
Mike
Quoteknight
"Suor Angelica...
She was forced to leave her baby, later she tries to kill herself once she knows about the death of her child. To me, that is very touching (I am not talking about the music).
QuoteCountess de la Roche is not Marie's mother, her own does not register in the piece.....so, nup.
I know that. But she is the only person that understands Marie tragedy and tries to help her (in part from the abuse that Marie received from her own son).
And another touching mother, victim of her sisters and her husband: Militrissa in Rimski-Korsakov masterpiece "The Tzar Saltan".
Mike
[/quote]
Now I hope you will not take this amiss, but I was asking for good mothers who had major parts in the opera concerned, implicitly I guess I was assuming that it would be a given the mothers would have a benign influence on their kids or make some extraordinary sacrifice for them. Aspiring motherhood at a distance does not qualify. Having read the story I can see why I have avoided Suor Angelica.
Now I do think that also knocks out the splendid Countess de la Roche.
As to The Tzar Saltan character, I had to read this one up as I had no clue as to the plot. I don't like to keep saying 'No' to you, but apart from giving birth and being locked in a barrel with him, what does she actually do? I agree she was benign, by the terms above, I think she has to be allowed in, but she is a bit of a passive character.
Mike
How could we have missed her, Earth Mother, mother of the brood of female warriers - and she sings a lot too, drum roll:
ERDA! 0:)
How about the empress from Die Frau Ohne Schatten? We don't know whether she's going to be a good mother or not, but odds are favourable. 0:)
Quote from: uffeviking on April 23, 2007, 12:11:04 PM
How could we have missed her, Earth Mother, mother of the brood of female warriers - and she sings a lot too, drum roll:
ERDA! 0:)
A good joke, in what way is she showing her credentials as a Mother? We don't even know if all the 'girls' were hers.
Now, the Empress....she is not eligible, good potential is no qualification here. We have our standards you know.
Mike
Mother's Day is in 20 days! :D
That must be why Mike started this thread... ;D
Mike, don't short change Erda! She definitely is the mother of The Norns! OK, maybe they sing too long for some of us here, but they are pretty good girls, doing their spinning as they had been told by their mother! :P
Prince Igor was mentioned a few posts back. Are stepmother's allowed? Admittedly the role of the stepmother (Yaroslavna) is geared more towards the good wife but the implication is that the family, as a unit, is very solid indeed.
Retuning to the maternal, Ludmila in the Bartered Bride is quite the supportive mother, offering sound advice when her daughter's back is against the wall. However, the role is pretty minor.
Neither good nor bad is the central character of Mother [sic] in Martinu's The Knife's Tears. While the mother here is far from a malevolent figure she's not exactly 'motherly' material, either. In truth, her and her daughter are cut from the same flighty cloth and as such are easy prey for a mysterious, face changing Don Juan type (the devil in disguise).
Both Mother and daughter prattle on endlessly as neither know what to do with the devil's cat-and-mouse seduction game. Eventually both get taken in as the devil takes on respective disguises.
Both get dumped, of course, with the daughter left in a complete shambles at the betrayal (mom's just miffed).
So this mother's not exactly evil but she's no shining example of motherhood, either (hey, there are those kind of mothers out there!)
I am learing some interesting things about Operas I don't know other than by name. Thanks....but I don't think any of the fresh crop measure up to my arbitrary standards.
Mike
I feel sorry for Azucena.
What she did was completely and utterly wrong but, boy, did she pay for it: an Italian tenor!
No, seriously, Verdi does give her some truly great music. Doesn't 'Ai nostri monti' tear at the heart strings, especially when her 'son' and his lover are arguing in the background.
And she gets the last line and it's a doozy!
Don't forget Virgil Thomson's The Mother of Us All.
Larry, Yet another new one on me, care to advocate it.
Azucena's music is esp. dramatic in that Act 4 scene 2, Ai nostri monti that you mention Hector. When I run it through my head I can only hear Brigitte Fassbaender, who made the words so vivid. I felt that she bested even the best native Italian singers.
Mike
Well, the thread seems pretty desperate, so I'll chime in after all. 0:)
The best opera composer ever, as you have all probably guessed by now is... yes, of course, Joanna Bruzdowicz.
Now, I've never seen or heard any of her operas but I've read a synopsis of her The Trojan Women (based on the tragedy by Euripides) where Hecuba is one of the main characters (or perhaps even the main). By the time the action of the opera takes place her son Hector and husband Priamus are both dead and she has only to witness the death of her grandson. Her demeanor throughout the opera befits the queen she is - faced by the fate of a slave she decides to commit suicide (here the opera departs from the Greek play). It seems she was a very decent mother, wife and grandmother, a proud queen, and her end is aptly heroic. And you definitely can't accuse her of any wrongdoings in dealing with her family. There's not much she can do but she does what is possible...
Well, you can't blame me for trying... ;D
According to the book, the work was premiered in France, in Saint-Denis in 1973.
A bad mother is Amahl's mom... she sold his son's sheeps.
Quote from: knight on April 24, 2007, 07:20:15 AM
Larry, Yet another new one on me, care to advocate it.
No. I loathe Virgil Thomson's musc. TMofUA is an opera about Susan B. Anthony.
How about Norma? True, she contemplates killing her children, but, unlike Medea, she cannot bring herslef to do it. The long solo she sings here is one of the most beautiful passages in the opera. Norma reacts as many would, when hearing the man she loves is unfaithful to her. She rants and raves and swears vengeance, but in the end her nobility shines through and she confesses her own guilt, (that of having a lover and children, when she was supposed to be a virgin). Her final plea is to her father to look after her children. I'd say she was a good mother.
And Medea is not really a bad mother. She is unhinged admittedly, but she kills her children out of love for them. She cannot bear the thought of letting them be brought up by a father she hates and his new wife, whom she also loathes. Jason is really the villain in this opera. Don't forget that, not only has he deserted her to marry another, younger Princess, who will improve his social standing, but that he demands that Medea give up her children as well. This is what tips her over the edge. She can't bear the thought of losing them.
I got one:
From Copland's the The Tender Land, Laurie's mother. Protective and loving, eventually learning to let her daughter go.
Translondon, Sorry I am not moved by your arguments.
Norma....A pyre has been erected. She mounts it, but not alone. Pollione, his love rekindled at the spectacle of her greatness of soul, joins her. In the flames he, too, will atone for their offence before God.
So she is another one who commits suicide instead of shutting up and looking after her children. I wonder how she hid the bump.....but then if she is always Caballe sized, people would possibly not clue in.
Medea....We should all be fortunate enough to avoid such a loving mother.
PW, Does she have a major part to play?
Mike
Quote from: knight on April 26, 2007, 05:21:51 AM
Translondon, Sorry I am not moved by your arguments.
Norma....A pyre has been erected. She mounts it, but not alone. Pollione, his love rekindled at the spectacle of her greatness of soul, joins her. In the flames he, too, will atone for their offence before God.
So she is another one who commits suicide instead of shutting up and looking after her children. I wonder how she hid the bump.....but then if she is always Caballe sized, people would possibly not clue in.
Medea....We should all be fortunate enough to avoid such a loving mother.
PW, Does she have a major part to play?
Mike
Well in Norma's defence, it has to be said, that once she has confessed her guilt, she doesn't actually have any choice about dying. So strictly speaking it is not suicide. And as sung by a Callas, her final plea to her father to save and look after her children would melt the hardest heart. Funny how Callas always saved her most melting tones for the passages about her children.
Incidentally both Ponselle and Callas, two of the greatest Normas, would have had a lot of trouble hiding their bumps. Maybe they just wore voluminous robes for a while or took a priestess sabbatical.
Quote from: knight on April 26, 2007, 05:21:51 AM
PW, Does she have a major part to play?
Mike
Yes, she sings quite a bit. I would say her part is as big as Fricka in
Das Rheingold.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 26, 2007, 06:22:07 AM
Yes, she sings quite a bit. I would say her part is as big as Fricka in Das Rheingold.
OK, she gets a free pass.
Translondon, I just am not convinced. Norma ought just to have kept stumm....difficult in opera, but Mum ought to have been the word.
Mike
Quote from: knight on April 26, 2007, 11:04:09 AM
OK, she gets a free pass.
Translondon, I just am not convinced. Norma ought just to have kept stumm....difficult in opera, but Mum ought to have been the word.
Mike
oh, you're a hard task master. Maybe motherliness and "doing the right thing" are incompatible.
And Erda, my proposed Mother does not get a free pass, huh? ???
Three daughters busily doing their womanly tasks and also doing a lot of singing, come on, Mike, give it to them! ;)
But apart from her acknowledged role as the erth mother, Erde does not interact, sponsor, nourish, feed, chat to, save, educate or nurse any of her children, they are independent of her. Does she write to them, phone them, visit them, send gifts? NO, too busy with her own stuff...so no free pass.
Mike
Quote from: knight on April 24, 2007, 07:20:15 AM
Larry, Yet another new one on me, care to advocate it.
Azucena's music is esp. dramatic in that Act 4 scene 2, Ai nostri monti that you mention Hector. When I run it through my head I can only hear Brigitte Fassbaender, who made the words so vivid. I felt that she bested even the best native Italian singers.
Mike
Barbieri?
So vivid is her singing I can still visualise wandering lost around the enemy camp looking for her lost Italian ten...sorry, 'son.'
Hector, I have that Karajan Barbieri set, she is another really good singer. Italy used to have an endless supply of them. Possibly it still does, but they are not given the profile by the recording companies.
Mike
Quote from: knight on April 27, 2007, 04:53:32 AM
Hector, I have that Karajan Barbieri set, she is another really good singer. Italy used to have an endless supply of them. Possibly it still does, but they are not given the profile by the recording companies.
Mike
Barbieri certainly wasn't. Taken for granted. Shows how v good she was, bless her.
I've heard Azucena's who barely projected past the first row of seats in the opera house. I cannot ever imagine that would have been the case with Fedora.