GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => Topic started by: EmpNapoleon on November 21, 2007, 08:13:50 AM

Poll
Question: Does art/Art save?
Option 1: Yes. votes: 8
Option 2: No. votes: 4
Option 3: This is meaningless. votes: 12
Title: Art that saves
Post by: EmpNapoleon on November 21, 2007, 08:13:50 AM
"I believe that through Art all men are saved."
-Wagner
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: Don on November 21, 2007, 08:18:15 AM
Do women enter this picture?
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: karlhenning on November 21, 2007, 08:19:31 AM
Quote from: Don on November 21, 2007, 08:18:15 AM
Do women enter this picture?

Question to Mr Wagner? . . .
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: karlhenning on November 21, 2007, 08:20:23 AM
Beauty will save the world. — Dostoyevsky
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: EmpNapoleon on November 21, 2007, 08:27:04 AM
Art saves?  This is as stupid as asking if there is God in Bruckner's music. 

Obviously Wagner meant to say "good art."  Otherwise, Saul's "paintings" would have helped me through many of life's harships.
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: Lethevich on November 21, 2007, 08:29:50 AM
Quote from: EmpNapoleon on November 21, 2007, 08:27:04 AM
Art saves?  This is as stupid as asking if there is God in Bruckner's music. 

Obviously Wagner meant to say "good art."  Otherwise, Saul's "paintings" would have helped me through many of life's harships.

In this context, "saving" is quite limited - rather restricted to saving the listener from bad music, by introducing them to good...
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: karlhenning on November 21, 2007, 08:30:28 AM
Quote from: EmpNapoleon on November 21, 2007, 08:27:04 AM
Otherwise, Saul's "paintings" would have helped me through many of life's harships.

You mean . . . they haven't?
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: karlhenning on November 21, 2007, 08:32:51 AM
Quote from: Lethe on November 21, 2007, 08:29:50 AM
In this context, "saving" is quite limited - rather restricted to saving the listener from bad music, by introducing them to good...

Interesting idea.  But I think that we'll find individuals who have found some personally significant type of salvific power in art.  Not that I think we could build a soteriology on that . . . .
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: EmpNapoleon on November 21, 2007, 08:48:26 AM
Quote from: Lethe on November 21, 2007, 08:29:50 AM
In this context, "saving" is quite limited - rather restricted to saving the listener from bad music, by introducing them to good...

I was joking about only good art that saves.  Did he mean that even poor art saves the artist who makes it (Saul)?  Metal listeners are redeemed as they bang their heads? 

Is being saved psychological?  Does it take one out of the misery of the body?  Wanger was all into Schopenhauer.  I don't think that it saves in the "intellectual/spiritual" sense.  Art needs the body. 

Music has an extraordinary power to put people in its own mood, even if they're unaware of this often subtle coercion.  Music is in restaurants, stores, commercials; everywhere it influences.  But it doesn't just take one out of the world one was in prior to listening and bring one to a place where one is saved, whatever that means.  Music is always felt.  I don't know what it means to be saved in a world of only feelings. 
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: EmpNapoleon on November 21, 2007, 01:55:14 PM
Thebes is diseased.  Here comes Oedipus!  The city is haunted.  Here come the Ghostbusters!

I know not all art implies purification and penance (music without pathos).  I'm just sick of the tragic world view (though it may be most profound).

Why did Wagner have "art that saves" in mind?  So he be the savior?  I don't know about that, but I love his music.  Though I can only save myself.
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: Mozart on November 21, 2007, 02:26:33 PM
Saved from what exactly? Art is just a demonstration of what man is capable of. But only a few capable men can create such an art.
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: EmpNapoleon on November 21, 2007, 02:36:18 PM
Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on November 21, 2007, 02:26:33 PM
Saved from what exactly?

Good question.
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: karlhenning on November 21, 2007, 02:42:13 PM
Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on November 21, 2007, 02:26:33 PM
Art is just a demonstration of what man is capable of.

With apologies, that is but an impoverished notion of Art.
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: Mozart on November 21, 2007, 02:43:54 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 21, 2007, 02:42:13 PM
With apologies, that is but an impoverished notion of Art.

So what is your definition of capital a Art?
I may not know a lot about marble, but I can surely go to Florence and be impressed with the naked statue a guy sculpted hundreds of years ago. Am I supposed to have another feeling besides wow?
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: BachQ on November 21, 2007, 02:44:47 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 21, 2007, 02:42:13 PM
With apologies, that is but an impoverished notion of Art.

No, it's a noble notion of Art .......
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: karlhenning on November 21, 2007, 06:20:08 PM
Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on November 21, 2007, 02:43:54 PM
I may not know a lot about marble, but I can surely go to Florence and be impressed with the naked statue a guy sculpted hundreds of years ago. Am I supposed to have another feeling besides wow?

Perhaps.  Yes, perhaps.
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: Mozart on November 21, 2007, 06:32:35 PM
Well friend, I am still waiting for your higher definition of capital a Art to wipe out my impoverished one.
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: jochanaan on November 24, 2007, 07:39:03 PM
Laying aside for the moment the problematic question "What is 'being saved'?" my experience and instincts tell me that art can save, but it can also fail to save.  It did not save Wagner from being a creep. :-\
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: Kullervo on November 24, 2007, 09:04:43 PM
Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on November 21, 2007, 06:32:35 PM
Well friend, I am still waiting for your higher definition of capital a Art to wipe out my impoverished one.

Sarcasm is poisonous. Beware!
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: Joe Barron on November 25, 2007, 07:20:34 AM
Does art save? I believe it can, though perhaps not in the sense of redeeming the soul of the Volk, as Wagner wrote. His ideas are alittle too mystical for my taste.  Doing art is good therapy, however, as I know from first-hand experience. I credit music with saving my life.
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: Danny on November 25, 2007, 09:49:58 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 21, 2007, 08:20:23 AM
Beauty will save the world. — Dostoyevsky

Prince Myshkin, what a guy, but you know how he winds up, Dr. Karl. :(
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: Wanderer on November 25, 2007, 10:46:10 AM
I imagine this phrase is best interpreted to mean that art may be perceived as a glimpse into the divine (however one defines it). It is to be seriously doubted that any sui generis redeeming qualities lie inherent in music, the arts, art or Art. Not until a new religious dogma informs us otherwise, of course.
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: EmpNapoleon on November 25, 2007, 11:50:38 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on November 25, 2007, 10:46:10 AM
I imagine this phrase is best interpreted to mean that art may be perceived as a glimpse into the divine (however one defines it). It is to be seriously doubted that any sui generis redeeming qualities lie inherent in music, the arts, art or Art. Not until a new religious dogma informs us otherwise, of course.
A conductor is really out of his mind, like a priest.  Whether he's glimpsing the divine or achieving profound feelings of the human body, I don't know. 

Quote from: jochanaan on November 24, 2007, 07:39:03 PM
Laying aside for the moment the problematic question "What is 'being saved'?" my experience and instincts tell me that art can save, but it can also fail to save.
Yes.  It requires the listener to reach levels. 

Quote from: jochanaan on November 24, 2007, 07:39:03 PM
It did not save Wagner from being a creep. :-\

If his character was different, his music would have also been different.  Leave him alone; he's dead.  All that's alive is the music.  You won't have to worry about meeting Wagner the creep.  Even if that was possible, you'd probably love meeting him.

Quote from: Joe Barron on November 25, 2007, 07:20:34 AM
His ideas are alittle too mystical for my taste.
That's true.  But on the other hand, everything mystical could be translated into psychological.

Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on November 21, 2007, 02:43:54 PM
Am I supposed to have another feeling besides wow?
That one "feeling" has a billion, infinite variations, or maybe just a few conditioned ones.  Is that "wow" feeling earned?  One time I may think the wow once and move on because of laziness.  Another time, the wow lasts for several minutes.  Maybe the wow is what saves.
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: Haffner on November 25, 2007, 01:42:19 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 21, 2007, 08:30:28 AM
You mean . . . they haven't?





The Revelations never cease :o!
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: jochanaan on November 26, 2007, 06:33:20 AM
Quote from: EmpNapoleon on November 25, 2007, 11:50:38 AM
A conductor is really out of his mind, like a priest.  Whether he's glimpsing the divine or achieving profound feelings of the human body, I don't know. 
Tantra practitioners say you can do both at once. ;D
Quote from: EmpNapoleon on November 25, 2007, 11:50:38 AM
If his character was different, his music would have also been different.
Yes.  It might have been even greater! ;)
Title: Re: Art that saves
Post by: max on November 28, 2007, 07:58:58 PM
Quote from: EmpNapoleon on November 25, 2007, 11:50:38 AM
A conductor is really out of his mind, like a priest.  Whether he's glimpsing the divine or achieving profound feelings of the human body, I don't know. 
 
Yes.  It requires the listener to reach levels. 

If his character was different, his music would have also been different.  Leave him alone; he's dead.  All that's alive is the music.  You won't have to worry about meeting Wagner the creep.  Even if that was possible, you'd probably love meeting him.

That's true.  But on the other hand, everything mystical could be translated into psychological.

That one "feeling" has a billion, infinite variations, or maybe just a few conditioned ones.  Is that "wow" feeling earned?  One time I may think the wow once and move on because of laziness.  Another time, the wow lasts for several minutes.  Maybe the wow is what saves.

...this has to be among the best and insightful responses I've read from anyone on this forum!!
:o.

I especially like
Quoteeverything mystical could be translated into psychological
and the one preceding it
QuoteYou won't have to worry about meeting Wagner the creep.  Even if that was possible, you'd probably love meeting him.

No doubt! The experience may be very different from what one would expect!