What is the single most perfect piece of music ever written? The one that makes all the others pale, even if only slightly, in comparison?
Perfect as in it would be sacrilege to change a single note and even the thought of changing a note make you cringe?
I vote for Mozart's Symphony #40, K550.
Vivaldi 2nd movement of Winter from The Four Seasons.
Maybe tomorrow, or next week, or next month, or next year, I'll have a different answer.
But for now, this is the one for me.
Very tough question! :o
I like PerfectWagnerite's answer for Mozart's Symphony # 40. Good choice.
For a complete work, my choice would be either Bach's Mass in B minor, or Beethoven's 9th Symphony.
For a single movement, I'll go with Beethoven's Cavatina from String Quartet No. 13
Beethoven's op. 133.
A toss up between Op 111 and Op 132.
Mahler 9
(where's Renfield? ;D ...)
For me, there are three pieces where every single note is perfect, where every nuance is such that to change one thing, drama and impact would be lost.
Beethoven's Piano Sonata no. 14 ("Moonlight") - the first ovement being the most sublime note-for-note piece of music I have heard.
Beethoven's Ninth symphony - glorious, every second a delight.
And they might be deemed hackneyed and over-popular (whatever that means) but Vivaldi's Concertos Op.8 1-4 "Four Seasons" are perfect in every way. I suspect that one of the reasons that Vivaldi is poorly thought of are these four concerti. They are so perfect that everything else he wrote pales in significance next to them. Well, that and the old "less is more" approach to concertos (again, a matter of opinion).
Quote from: Great Gable on December 10, 2007, 07:14:30 AM
And they might be deemed hackneyed and over-popular (whatever that means) but Vivaldi's Concertos Op.8 1-4 "Four Seasons" are perfect in every way. I suspect that one of the reasons that Vivaldi is poorly thought of are theses four concerti. They are so perfect that everything else he wrote pales in insignificance next to them. Well, that and the old "less is more" approach to concertos (again, a matter of opinion).
i have to say the same thing for Vivaldi..... the Four Seasons concertos are amazing, yet everything else i've heard by him is just watered down mediocre music.
Beethoven Op131 or 132. If hard pressed I'd go with 131.
I have a surprising response - Goldberg Variations.
It's a three-way tie as far as I am concerned:
Richard Wagner: Parsifal, WWV 111
Gustav Mahler: Symphony no. 2
Ludwig van Beethoven: Piano concerto no. 5, op. 73
I am spoiled for choice....... :)
Mahler - symphony no.2
Beethoven - symphony no.9
Chopin - all etudes, waltzes, mazurkas, w/e
Quote from: Don on December 10, 2007, 08:27:38 AM
I have a surprising response - Goldberg Variations.
Seconded. :)
Q
Quote from: Don on December 10, 2007, 08:27:38 AM
I have a surprising response - Goldberg Variations.
It's on my shortlist as well. I'll get back to you in 50 years when I've finished the tiebreaking process. :)
Bach, Goldberg Variations
LvB, 7th Symphony, 4th PC
Mozart, Piano Concerto no. 24
Brahms, 4th Symphony
Mendelssohn, Overture to MSND
Schubert, Wanderer Fantasy; String Quintet
Quote from: D Minor on December 10, 2007, 11:54:34 AM
Bach, Goldberg Variations
LvB, 7th Symphony, 4th PC
Mozart, Piano Concerto no. 24
Brahms, 4th Symphony
Mendelssohn, Overture to MSND
Schubert, Wanderer Fantasy; String Quintet
you're trying to be funny, aren't you?
Quote from: G...R...E...G... on December 10, 2007, 11:57:55 AM
you're trying to be funny, aren't you?
What do you find humorous about D Minor's list?
Quote from: Don on December 10, 2007, 12:07:26 PM
What do you find humorous about D Minor's list?
you notice he left out something, right?.......
this is about "The Best", and we all know what D Minor's favorite is, unless he's been deceiving us all this time.
Maybe an oddball, but my pick would be Arvo Part's Summa (choir version). Falsely disarmingly simple in appearance, but conveying such an emotion. I wouldn't consider it in any other way. :) 0:)
Quote from: G...R...E...G... on December 10, 2007, 12:57:07 PM
you notice he left out something, right?.......
this is about "The Best", and we all know what D Minor's favorite is, unless he's been deceiving us all this time.
Greg, the OP queries "What is the
single most perfect piece of music ever written?" This is not the same question as "What is the
greatest piece of music ever written?" ....... and it certainly is not the same question as "What is your single most
favorite piece of music ever written?"
Beethoven's 9th may be his "greatest" symphony, but it is not his "most perfect" symphony.
Likewise, Brahms 1st PC may be the "greatest" PC, but it is not necessarily the "most perfect" PC.
"
Perfection" is merely one factor among many that contribute to the overall intrinsic "
greatness" of a piece.
Right. The 9th is a great, shaggy beast of a symphony, but it's not perfect.
It doesn't exist. Sorry. :(
Quote from: D Minor on December 11, 2007, 03:10:33 AM
Greg, the OP queries "What is the single most perfect piece of music ever written?" This is not the same question as "What is the greatest piece of music ever written?" ....... and it certainly is not the same question as "What is your single most favorite piece of music ever written?"
Beethoven's 9th may be his "greatest" symphony, but it is not his "most perfect" symphony.
Likewise, Brahms 1st PC may be the "greatest" PC, but it is not necessarily the "most perfect" PC.
"Perfection" is merely one factor among many that contribute to the overall intrinsic "greatness" of a piece.
despite the absence of vibrational fields in that post, it has an overall low accessibility...
Quote from: Mark on December 11, 2007, 04:53:53 AM
It doesn't exist. Sorry. :(
Most perfect if you're picky. ;)
Quote from: G...R...E...G... on December 11, 2007, 05:08:02 AM
despite the absence of vibrational fields in that post, it has an overall low accessibility...
Greg,
Let me explain. Multidimensional space in music is an endlessly divided totality of irregular aspects incessantly folded into each other. Through the multidimensional laws of proportion, there is a direct connection between mind and the basic patterns of rhythmic energy vibrations. This connection has been the fundamental root problem of the extreme global crisis induced by western linear development that mirrors western linear logic. The transcendental could be expressed in Greek culture with resonating harmonic proportions, but the concept of a smooth continuous rational universe could not be maintained with the linear discrete symbols of music-math and linear logic. From the seemingly random non-linear dialectical network of nodes, ordered patterns of meaning create harmonic structures of self-organization (i.e. spiro-vortex of the absolute void, the superstring, primary perception, negentropy, morphogenesis, cymatics, syllogisms of metaphor, and quantum logic). The infamous "butterfly effect" of chaos and complexity, where small changes have widespread and unpredictable systemic transformations, is simply a change in the fundamental node of the multidimensional pattern of harmonic oscillations.
Moreover, Greg, music hopes to draw its vitality from nature. A study of this ambition would produce a natural history of the art form, starting with the Pythagoreans and reaching beyond Hegel. Indeed, the dialectical reasoning in dispute between Hegelians and Marxists has been a rich source of such organicist beliefs. From the dialectical viewpoint a work of art is a conflict, with struggles, victories and defeats on every level. Which are the elements of dialectical Logic that Beethoven invokes? The most significant are Totality, the oppositions Quality/Quantity and Symmetry/Asymmetry, and of course the basic logical structure Thesis--Antithesis-Synthesis. Hegelian Logic is built up from primal elements into a network of higher and higher levels of synthesis. A synthesis is something both "preserved"--in the sense of "incorporated"--and "suspended." "Suspension" signifies either "raised to a higher level" or "ended" (all are possible meanings of aufgehoben).
A synthesis may be progressive and transformational; class conflict in Marx, for example, where a consequent revolution "incorporates" previous class antagonisms. Or it may be a dialectical suspension of opposing aspects, as in the conjunction of the part and the whole. For Beethoven, musical logic reflects historical logic, and both operate under the same terms. He situates his revaluation of total chromaticism within the forward motion of history: Historical unsettiings, derangements of concepts, the anti-dogmas, always take place as history leaps into successive phases....The allchromatic continuum becomes questionable or insufficient as the exclusive source for content-making material. The field upon which the dialectic unfolds is Totality. In Hegel, it is Reality, the essence behind the conflicted multitude of phenomena. For Beethoven, musical space is a Totality.
Quote from: D Minor on December 11, 2007, 11:44:14 AM
Greg,
Let me explain. Multidimensional space in music is an endlessly divided totality of irregular aspects incessantly folded into each other. Through the multidimensional laws of proportion, there is a direct connection between mind and the basic patterns of rhythmic energy vibrations. This connection has been the fundamental root problem of the extreme global crisis induced by western linear development that mirrors western linear logic. The transcendental could be expressed in Greek culture with resonating harmonic proportions, but the concept of a smooth continuous rational universe could not be maintained with the linear discrete symbols of music-math and linear logic. From the seemingly random non-linear dialectical network of nodes, ordered patterns of meaning create harmonic structures of self-organization (i.e. spiro-vortex of the absolute void, the superstring, primary perception, negentropy, morphogenesis, cymatics, syllogisms of metaphor, and quantum logic). The infamous "butterfly effect" of chaos and complexity, where small changes have widespread and unpredictable systemic transformations, is simply a change in the fundamental node of the multidimensional pattern of harmonic oscillations.
Moreover, Greg, music hopes to draw its vitality from nature. A study of this ambition would produce a natural history of the art form, starting with the Pythagoreans and reaching beyond Hegel. Indeed, the dialectical reasoning in dispute between Hegelians and Marxists has been a rich source of such organicist beliefs. From the dialectical viewpoint a work of art is a conflict, with struggles, victories and defeats on every level. Which are the elements of dialectical Logic that Beethoven invokes? The most significant are Totality, the oppositions Quality/Quantity and Symmetry/Asymmetry, and of course the basic logical structure Thesis--Antithesis-Synthesis. Hegelian Logic is built up from primal elements into a network of higher and higher levels of synthesis. A synthesis is something both "preserved"--in the sense of "incorporated"--and "suspended." "Suspension" signifies either "raised to a higher level" or "ended" (all are possible meanings of aufgehoben).
A synthesis may be progressive and transformational; class conflict in Marx, for example, where a consequent revolution "incorporates" previous class antagonisms. Or it may be a dialectical suspension of opposing aspects, as in the conjunction of the part and the whole. For Beethoven, musical logic reflects historical logic, and both operate under the same terms. He situates his revaluation of total chromaticism within the forward motion of history: Historical unsettiings, derangements of concepts, the anti-dogmas, always take place as history leaps into successive phases....The allchromatic continuum becomes questionable or insufficient as the exclusive source for content-making material. The field upon which the dialectic unfolds is Totality. In Hegel, it is Reality, the essence behind the conflicted multitude of phenomena. For Beethoven, musical space is a Totality.
全然分からなかったよ。
Quote from: MN Dave on December 11, 2007, 11:58:53 AM
Lazy.
Not I, sir.
I don't believe you can settle on a One Best of All, without in essence elevating one set of aesthetic preferences above others. The musical banquet is much too rich, for me to fixate upon one work, one composer, one style.
Quote from: D Minor on December 11, 2007, 12:01:49 PM
That's a very ambitious post ........
It was! He sought to draw me into a post of more than one sentence, and he met with success 8)
Genius
Quote from: karlhenning on December 11, 2007, 12:01:59 PM
Not I, sir.
I don't believe you can settle on a One Best of All, without in essence elevating one set of aesthetic preferences above others. The musical banquet is much too rich, for me to fixate upon one work, one composer, one style.
so you're saying there isn't one work that you enjoy more than any other (on a regular basis)?
Quote from: G...R...E...G... on December 11, 2007, 12:04:06 PM
so you're saying there isn't one work that you enjoy more than any other (on a regular basis)?
Correct. There is certainly a group of 50 works which I enjoy more than 300 other works, though 8)
Quote from: D Minor on December 11, 2007, 11:44:14 AM
Greg,
Let me explain. Multidimensional space in music is an endlessly divided totality of irregular aspects incessantly folded into each other. Through the multidimensional laws of proportion, there is a direct connection between mind and the basic patterns of rhythmic energy vibrations. This connection has been the fundamental root problem of the extreme global crisis induced by western linear development that mirrors western linear logic. The transcendental could be expressed in Greek culture with resonating harmonic proportions, but the concept of a smooth continuous rational universe could not be maintained with the linear discrete symbols of music-math and linear logic. From the seemingly random non-linear dialectical network of nodes, ordered patterns of meaning create harmonic structures of self-organization (i.e. spiro-vortex of the absolute void, the superstring, primary perception, negentropy, morphogenesis, cymatics, syllogisms of metaphor, and quantum logic). The infamous "butterfly effect" of chaos and complexity, where small changes have widespread and unpredictable systemic transformations, is simply a change in the fundamental node of the multidimensional pattern of harmonic oscillations.
Moreover, Greg, music hopes to draw its vitality from nature. A study of this ambition would produce a natural history of the art form, starting with the Pythagoreans and reaching beyond Hegel. Indeed, the dialectical reasoning in dispute between Hegelians and Marxists has been a rich source of such organicist beliefs. From the dialectical viewpoint a work of art is a conflict, with struggles, victories and defeats on every level. Which are the elements of dialectical Logic that Beethoven invokes? The most significant are Totality, the oppositions Quality/Quantity and Symmetry/Asymmetry, and of course the basic logical structure Thesis--Antithesis-Synthesis. Hegelian Logic is built up from primal elements into a network of higher and higher levels of synthesis. A synthesis is something both "preserved"--in the sense of "incorporated"--and "suspended." "Suspension" signifies either "raised to a higher level" or "ended" (all are possible meanings of aufgehoben).
A synthesis may be progressive and transformational; class conflict in Marx, for example, where a consequent revolution "incorporates" previous class antagonisms. Or it may be a dialectical suspension of opposing aspects, as in the conjunction of the part and the whole. For Beethoven, musical logic reflects historical logic, and both operate under the same terms. He situates his revaluation of total chromaticism within the forward motion of history: Historical unsettiings, derangements of concepts, the anti-dogmas, always take place as history leaps into successive phases....The allchromatic continuum becomes questionable or insufficient as the exclusive source for content-making material. The field upon which the dialectic unfolds is Totality. In Hegel, it is Reality, the essence behind the conflicted multitude of phenomena. For Beethoven, musical space is a Totality.
If you're going to plagiarise someone else's ideas it might be an idea to quote your source! You wouldn't want people thinking the ideas were your own would you! Or would you?
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/summary_0199-1832536_ITM
Quote from: G...R...E...G... on December 10, 2007, 12:57:07 PM
you notice he left out something, right?.......
this is about "The Best", and we all know what D Minor's favorite is, unless he's been deceiving us all this time.
I guess we all don't know, because I have no idea what D Minor's favorite anything is.
One piece of music I've always considered perfect is the Adagio from Mahler's Symphony No. 6. It seems to me the most unified thing he ever wrote, growing naturally and organically from the first seeds of melody planted at the start, without the sudden shifts and breaks in continuity that characterize many of his longer movements. It's entry of a piece, and it's so good that it makes the rest of the symphony something of a chore. I'm either waiting mpatiently through the first two movements or still coming down during the last.
Mozart's Marriage of Figaro, Beethoven's 9th, and Dvorak's New World are my perfect choices.
Lots of good stuff in this thread, of course.
I just cannot sign off on any of it as The Best.
Well, maybe Sean's thread about how we're all the cows in front of the abbattoir is The Best.
Quote from: karlhenning on December 11, 2007, 04:53:29 PM
Lots of good stuff in this thread, of course.
I just cannot sign off on any of it as The Best.
Well, maybe Sean's thread about how we're all the cows in front of the abbattoir is The Best.
Whatever it is, I'm sure it's by Shostakovich, right? ;D
I adore Handel's Messiah from beginning to end. In my book, it is a couple notches above everything else. Admittedly, I am a relative newbie to classical (about 3 years), and so a lot of the music some of you guys enjoy probably still feels a little inaccessible to me.
Incidentally, I can hardly stomach Vivaldi's Four Seasons, but mostly I reckon its a bias from having heard Spring (or is it Summer?) so durn much its sickening. However, I do enjoy several other Vivaldi works.
Quote from: MN Dave on December 11, 2007, 05:14:28 PM
Whatever it is, I'm sure it's by Shostakovich, right? ;D
You may just be onto something there! 0:)
Quote from: woodshedder on December 11, 2007, 06:54:58 PM
I adore Handel's Messiah from beginning to end. In my book, it is a couple notches above everything else. Admittedly, I am a relative newbie to classical (about 3 years), and so a lot of the music some of you guys enjoy probably still feels a little inaccessible to me.
Incidentally, I can hardly stomach Vivaldi's Four Seasons, but mostly I reckon its a bias from having heard Spring (or is it Summer?) so durn much its sickening. However, I do enjoy several other Vivaldi works.
Welcome,
woodshedder!
I'd suggest simply giving the
Vivaldi a miss for a couple of years; I am very familiar with the "tedium-by-overexposure" effect. if you can avoid hearing the
Le quattro stagioni for a few years, and then hear it with fresh ears, you may like it (again).
I am totally astonished that any of you should imagine there is such a work. :)
Quote from: karlhenning on December 12, 2007, 04:16:17 AM
Welcome, woodshedder!
I'd suggest simply giving the Vivaldi a miss for a couple of years; I am very familiar with the "tedium-by-overexposure" effect. if you can avoid hearing the Le quattro stagioni for a few years, and then hear it with fresh ears, you may like it (again).
Or, hear Europa Galante with Fabio Biondi on Virgin Classics, and your ears will hear this cycle of old warhorses as though for the first time. ;)
4' 33"
This is a work where it is simply impossible to leave out a simple note.
Well, the composer would have to be BACH of course. ;D My nomination:
BACH: Prelude and Fugue in E-flat major: BWV 552
I will have a bit of fun with this Dave and use another genre, jazz. Two come to mind. First, for me, it would be Miles's Kind of Blue. This can be either the composition that goes by this name or the entire album....your pick. ;D Next, on Ken Burns's jazz series, Louis Armstrong's West End Blues, was actually described using the word "perfect", I believe. Not sure what episode, but the professor(?) that put forth this notion just may be on to something. 8)
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on December 10, 2007, 06:18:18 AM
I vote for Mozart's Symphony #40, K550.
Thirded PW! Would also add most of the Ring sans Act 1 of Siegfried. Also Tristan und Isolde is 3.5 hrs of total perfection 0:)
Quote from: orbital on December 10, 2007, 08:13:50 AM
Beethoven Op131 or 132. If hard pressed I'd go with 131.
I'll add to these Mel Bonis Op127.
Quote from: Ten thumbs on December 17, 2007, 12:53:09 PM
I'll add to these Mel Bonis Op127.
I don't think it's possible to speak about best without discussing, lengthily, what is meant by best, and since it is unlikely that we aill agree, we will be stuck. That said, for me it will be op 131, closely followed by 127 and 130. Why - I don't know, but no other works affect me as strongly.
Quote from: quintett op.57 on December 17, 2007, 03:05:31 PM
So you can find an objective defect in any piece of music you've heard?
Given the OP ...
Quote from: MN Dave on December 10, 2007, 05:31:20 AM
What is the single most perfect piece of music ever written?
... my reply was merely focusing on the idea of perfection, which I don't believe exists anywhere here on earth. ;)
One of the reasons I think I've come to love music is because of its imperfection; its human-ness.
Quote from: Mark on December 17, 2007, 03:08:19 PM
... my reply was merely focusing on the idea of perfection, which I don't believe exists anywhere here on earth. ;)
That's rather damning Mark. With all the thousands of hours (could it be millions?) that I have spent listening to music, the idea that nothing could reach the heights of perfection is rather sad. There are quite a few pieces which I deem to be perfect - why shouldn't there be? There are a few which could not have been improved upon even if an eternity had been spent on their composition. It's all in the ears of the beholder though, isn't it?
Quote from: Great Gable on December 17, 2007, 10:58:12 PM
It's all in the ears of the beholder though, isn't it?
Nein.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 18, 2007, 04:53:09 AM
Nein.
That was a rhetorical question. What else can it be. There is no set blueprint that music must fulfil, or comply to, to qualify as perfect. It's completely subjective. Come to that, it is also utterly irrelevant what anyone else's opinion is with regard to one person's stated favourite. If one person thinks a piece is perfect in every way - then it is, even if the rest of mankind thinks it clashing and dissonant.
Quote from: Great Gable on December 18, 2007, 05:19:51 AM
There is no set blueprint that music must fulfil, or comply to, to qualify as perfect. It's completely subjective.
Proof?
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 18, 2007, 05:33:15 AM
Proof?
Certainly don't need to furnish any. Look at the question set by the OP. If ever a request for opinions was set up more subjectively I have yet to see it.
Quote from: Mark on December 17, 2007, 03:08:19 PM
Given the OP ...
... my reply was merely focusing on the idea of perfection, which I don't believe exists anywhere here on earth. ;)
perfection does exist. I agree with Great Gable.
Are you capable of giving a
perfect answer to this question : 2+2=?
It all depends on what you're looking for. Do you feel uncompletely satisfied by any piece of music you've listened? I don't. Many are often perfect for me!
Quote from: quintett op.57 on December 18, 2007, 01:45:36 PM
perfection does exist. I agree with Great Gable.
Are you capable of giving a perfect answer to this question : 2+2=?
welllllllll the only answer would be 4
Quote from: Mark on December 17, 2007, 03:08:19 PM
... my reply was merely focusing on the idea of perfection, which I don't believe exists anywhere here on earth. ;)
If something cannot possibly be improved upon, then it's "perfect"
Examples of "perfect" music include:
1. 1st movement of Brahms 4th Symphony
2. Finale to Mozart's Jupiter Symphony
3. Bach's Goldberg Variations
4. First movement to LvB's 5th Symphony
Quote from: MN Dave on December 10, 2007, 05:31:20 AM
What is the single most perfect piece of music ever written? The one that makes all the others pale, even if only slightly, in comparison?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VE55M9GPL._AA240_.jpg)
...it's on this CD! Buy it! BUY IT! Believe in it !!!!!!
Quote from: D Minor on December 18, 2007, 02:08:11 PM
If something cannot possibly be improved upon, then it's "perfect"
Examples of "perfect" music include:
1. 1st movement of Brahms 4th Symphony
2. Finale to Mozart's Jupiter Symphony
3. Bach's Goldberg Variations
4. First movement to LvB's 5th Symphony
I concur deeply with the first 3, but the last? ??? There are practically
NO vibrational fields in existence in that piece! You blasphemous, sinned soul! The Multi-dimensionality and complexity Society of Sir Edward William hereby announces that your argument to be faulty and invalid!
(http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/9204/1porthk0.gif)
Quote from: D Minor on December 18, 2007, 02:08:11 PM
If something cannot possibly be improved upon, then it's "perfect"
Examples of "perfect" music include:
4. First Third and Fourth movement to LvB's 5th Symphony
>:D
Quote from: quintett op.57 on December 18, 2007, 01:45:36 PM
Do you feel uncompletely satisfied by any piece of music you've listened?
I rarely feel
completely satisfied when i hear a piece of music. Few composers can perform such miracle.
Quote from: erato on December 17, 2007, 01:19:47 PM
I don't think it's possible to speak about best without discussing, lengthily, what is meant by best, and since it is unlikely that we aill agree, we will be stuck. That said, for me it will be op 131, closely followed by 127 and 130. Why - I don't know, but no other works affect me as strongly.
That sounds reasonable. It is a good thing that each has a different 'best' and even that will vary over time.
For now Beethoven Op127 and Mel Bonis Op127 make a good pair, especially as Beethoven died in 1827 and Mel composed her work in 1927.
Quote from: Ten thumbs on December 19, 2007, 05:47:29 AM
That sounds reasonable. It is a good thing that each has a different 'best' and even that will vary over time.
For now Beethoven Op127 and Mel Bonis Op127 make a good pair, especially as Beethoven died in 1827 and Mel composed her work in 1927.
What about Mel's work is so compelling for you? and where is there a recording?
Quote from: Sforzando on December 19, 2007, 06:20:37 AM
What about Mel's work is so compelling for you? and where is there a recording?
Sadly my number scheme has broken down, as Mel Bonis's D major piano quartet is Op124, not Op127. Silly me. Anyway, this is one of those works that seems to sum up the human condition. It reflects the composer's leanings towards spirituality. The writing is highly complex and varied and I cannot find a weak moment throughout its four movements. It announces a grand scheme from the opening bars and remains gripping throughout.
It is available from www.houseoflyrics.com (see amendment s/b voiceoflyrics.com - there's a gremlin somewhere) together with the Bb quartet Op69, which is the work so admired by Saint-Saens.
The underlying assumptions touch upon what I posted here:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,4945.0.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,4945.0.html)
in regards to the idea, with its roots in Platonic idealism, that there is a perfect music to which composers aspire, with the usual list of dead Germans named as contenders for having achieved it. It presupposes a static set of criteria by which to judge, when in fact the criteria is somewhat arbitrary.
Quote from: bwv 1080 on December 19, 2007, 10:37:06 AM
It presupposes a static set of criteria by which to judge, when in fact the criteria is somewhat arbitrary.
I see no evidence for this assertion whatsoever.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 19, 2007, 04:05:36 PM
I see no evidence for this assertion whatsoever.
What evidence could their possibly be either pro or con? If you are looking for empirical proof then you have already conceded that the idea of "best" is an arbitrary construct. The whole notion of "best" is built around universalizing one's own subjective impressions
Quote from: bwv 1080 on December 19, 2007, 05:21:19 PM
What evidence could their possibly be either pro or con? If you are looking for empirical proof then you have already conceded that the idea of "best" is an arbitrary construct. The whole notion of "best" is built around universalizing one's own subjective impressions
If no evidence can be evicted for either side then might you explain the tone of absolute authority in those continuous assertions of universal subjectivity?
Quote from: 僕はグレグ (Greg) on December 10, 2007, 06:53:19 AM
Mahler 9
(where's Renfield? ;D ...)
Right here. 8)
(In fact having belatedly read your post just as I was about to duplicate it, minus the Renfield part. :P)
And happy to confirm the Mahler's 9th's being properly upholded even while I'm away; "there is yet hope", Greg. ;)
The philosophical(?) debate I am, typically, staying out of.
Besides, this is a frantic period: best to make a post about Mahler's 9th than universality, in this instance. Or so I feel. :)
Quote from: Ten thumbs on December 19, 2007, 10:26:44 AM
It is available from www.houseoflyrics.com together with the Bb quartet Op69, which is the work so admired by Saint-Saens.
Can you be more specific? I can't locate the CD there.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 19, 2007, 06:09:15 PM
If no evidence can be evicted for either side then might you explain the tone of absolute authority in those continuous assertions of universal subjectivity?
There is no tone or claim of absolute authority or universal subjectivity. It is a matter of presuppositions - these presuppositions have changed throughout the history of Western music. That music might have extra-muscial connotations, for example, was widely held during the 19th century but was not significant either before or after that period. Those who have written about music over the past few hundred years have substantial agreements, but also substantial differences and there is no exact agreement over what would constitute "the best". That people have individual preferences and values is self evident, what is not is that there is some set of universal values - that is something, as a positive assertion, would place the burden of proof on anyone who claims that as a fact.
Quote from: bwv 1080 on December 19, 2007, 08:23:23 PM
There is no tone or claim of absolute authority or universal subjectivity. It is a matter of presuppositions - these presuppositions have changed throughout the history of Western music. That music might have extra-muscial connotations, for example, was widely held during the 19th century but was not significant either before or after that period. Those who have written about music over the past few hundred years have substantial agreements, but also substantial differences and there is no exact agreement over what would constitute "the best". That people have individual preferences and values is self evident, what is not is that there is some set of universal values - that is something, as a positive assertion, would place the burden of proof on anyone who claims that as a fact.
That's the best post so far .......... (objectively) .........
Quote from: Sforzando on December 19, 2007, 06:53:45 PM
Can you be more specific? I can't locate the CD there.
Not certain how I put houseoflyrics, as I've never heard of them. Should be voiceoflyrics.com.
Sorry. Looks like age is catching up with me!
Quote from: Ten thumbs on December 20, 2007, 07:34:38 AM
Not certain how I put houseoflyrics, as I've never heard of them. Should be voiceoflyrics.com.
Sorry. Looks like age is catching up with me!
That helps considerably! I'm willing to look into these quartets.