Than classical.
True? Who can speak to this?
Definitely! African music is based on rhythms and can be very complex.
Western music did have a period in which rhythm was explored in full, the so called ars subtilis of the gothic era, some of this stuff rivaling anything in the African lore, but then harmony prevailed and rhythm became less important. It's ok anyway, i like harmony and development better and i find the primeval minimalism of African art to be monotonous. Luckily, a couple of modern composers have managed to fuse both arts in a rather convincing synthesis (Ligeti!).
I recently sat through some African drumming by a group from Sierra Leone. Sure, cross-rhythms now and then, but as mentioned above, in the end monotonous.
It does not compare to the invention of polyphony.
Experiment:
African tribal group made to listen to Beethoven.
Quote from: Cato on December 12, 2007, 09:43:48 AM
It does not compare to the invention of polyphony.
Some portions of the African tradition are polyphonic (I.E., the music of the Pygmies), but it's still rather uncouth and polyphony without development is kind of useless anyway.
Quote from: Cato on December 12, 2007, 09:43:48 AM
I recently sat through some African drumming by a group from Sierra Leone. Sure, cross-rhythms now and then, but as mentioned above, in the end monotonous.
The biggest difference, though, is that African drumming is meant to be participatory, while European art music is meant to be listened to.
African drumming is not monotonous if you are actively involved. With that at it's core, you cannot really judge it in the same way you would a Beethoven symphony.
Quote from: James on December 12, 2007, 10:13:08 AM
There is more to music than just 1 dimension...but there is hordes of rhythmic complexity in the great classical legacy... Beethoven, who wrote piano sonatas in 3/8, 12/8, 9/16 and 11/16, and string quartets in ; Bach, who wrote in 7/8 and 12/16; Chopin, who wrote in 2/8, 6/4 and 12/4; Bartok, who wrote in 7/4, 8/4, 9/4 and many others; Barber, who wrote in 9/4, 14/8, 18/8 and many others; Leos Janacek, who wrote in 13/8, Elgar, who wrote in 9/8; and Stravinsky, who wrote in too many bizarre signatures to count. I won't even mention Schoenberg, Berg, Messiaen, Berio, Boulez, Ligeti, Carter or; CONLON NANCARROW!!!! That would be shooting fish in a barrel. And remember, they used these time signatures in works of great length and complexity. Has Africian music (or anything in pop, rock, jazz etc) produced something the complexity of a St. Matthew Passion? The answer is, a flat no. Accusing Bach-lovers of cultural snobbism won't change this.
Yes, but still not AS complex is my understanding.
Quote from: gmstudio on December 12, 2007, 10:00:57 AM
African drumming is not monotonous if you are actively involved. With that at it's core, you cannot really judge it in the same way you would a Beethoven symphony.
In fact my students were brought up on stage to beat certain rhythms, and said that after the initial fun, it was...yes...monotonous. Agreed, they could not be given too complicated a beat. But apparently the dances involved were designed for the rather monotonous drumming we heard.
See the previous post for examples of Western music which in either case are quite complex rhythmically, and use actual tuned notes on top of it! 8)
And obviously I was not expecting anything close to
Beethoven!
But if the topic means to make a case that a certain rhythmic complexity qualifies drumbeating for equivalency of expression to anything beyond other kinds of drumbeating, it will fail.
Quote from: Cato on December 12, 2007, 10:16:07 AM
In fact my students were brought up on stage to beat certain rhythms, and said that after the initial fun, it was...yes...monotonous. Agreed, they could not be given too complicated a beat. But apparently the dances involved were designed for the rather monotonous drumming we heard.
See the previous post for examples of Western music which in either case are quite complex rhythmically, and use actual tuned notes on top of it! 8)
And obviously I was not expecting anything close to Beethoven!
But if the topic means to make a case that a certain rhythmic complexity qualifies drumbeating for equivalency of expression to anything beyond other kinds of drumbeating, it will fail.
No, I was just curious, really. Wanted to hear some points of view on this.
Quote from: EmpNapoleon on December 12, 2007, 09:55:07 AM
Experiment:
African tribal group made to listen to Beethoven.
I think that the African tribal group would like Beethoven more than the classical tribal group would like African music. We should begin a crusade to give these people classical music (sorry for being a Westerner). Perhaps the Harry Refusal Bin could go to these tribes.
Quote from: Cato on December 12, 2007, 10:16:07 AM
In fact my students were brought up on stage to beat certain rhythms, and said that after the initial fun, it was...yes...monotonous. Agreed, they could not be given too complicated a beat. But apparently the dances involved were designed for the rather monotonous drumming we heard.
See the previous post for examples of Western music which in either case are quite complex rhythmically, and use actual tuned notes on top of it! 8)
And obviously I was not expecting anything close to Beethoven!
But if the topic means to make a case that a certain rhythmic complexity qualifies drumbeating for equivalency of expression to anything beyond other kinds of drumbeating, it will fail.
Sounds to me like you made up your mind based on one experience in "African Drumming Light"...the same as if someone made up their mind about all classical music based on one Andre Rieu tune.
Quote from: gmstudio on December 12, 2007, 12:10:36 PM
Sounds to me like you made up your mind based on one experience in "African Drumming Light"...the same as if someone made up their mind about all classical music based on one Andre Rieu tune.
Or maybe that's his honest, genuine opinion. I own pretty much every cd released by the nonesuch explorer series which is as good a picture of African music as anybody can hope to get without actually flying to Africa. The problem here is that we are comparing a fully developed art with primitive music. Of course you are going to come up short. For the record, African music does not compare with other developed forms of art as well, like say, Jazz.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 12, 2007, 12:46:38 PM
The problem here is that we are comparing a fully developed art with primitive music.
Another problem, is that you are really begging the question by the simplistic denigration "primitive music."
Quote from: karlhenning on December 12, 2007, 12:49:36 PM
Another problem, is that you are really begging the question by the simplistic denigration "primitive music."
Karl, you are not being perspective enough. If i wanted to denigrate African music i would have said "childish music". ;D
Primitive does not necessarily imply lack of sophistication, but surely, there are still limits on how much it can be achieved under those conditions.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 12, 2007, 01:11:55 PM
Primitive does not necessarily imply lack of sophistication . . .
Well, it certainly
seems to, as in some of the painting in the US from the Colonial period.
Quote. . . but surely, there are still limits on how much it can be achieved under those conditions.
Are there limits to what can be achieved with the diatonic major scale?
Unless someone here is a trained ethnomusicologist with an intimate knowledge of both Western and non-Western musics, I accept any statements made here both pro and con African drumming with a ton of salt. I am not intimately familiar with African music, but I know something about Indian, and the rhythmic complexities of the various talas there at least match those in any Western music.
There is more of course...but one needs to go to a good (real) library and take time to study everything that has been written on the complexity of African music. I remember quite well radio programs ( France Musique or France Culture ca 1970-1980) with franco-russian composer/ethnomusicologist Tolia Nikiprowetzky : fascinating explanations on handclapping, the balaphon, singing, dancing.
Ah - if only I had time to go to the Conservatoire: it would make any somber winterday exciting for me .
Peter
Par example :
Lynne Jessup The Mandinka balafon: an introduction with notation for teaching Xylo Publications, ASIN 0916421015 0
Barry, B. "le Royaume du Waalo : Le Senegal avant la conquete" Maspero (coll. "Textes a l'appui") 1972
Acogny Germaine Danse africaine NEA 1980
TRACEY, Hugh Tuning Forks for field Researches African Music, vol. 4, n. 4 1970
Adama Dramé & Arlette Senn-Borloz "JELIYA. Etre Griot et musicien aujourd'hui" l'Harmattan
Al Bekri Description de l'Afrique septentrionale (traduction de Slane) 1913
Al-Omari Ibn Fadl Allah L'Afrique moins l'Egypte (traduction Gaudefroy Demombynes) Geuthner 1927
Ankermann B. Die afrikanische Musikinstrumente Ethnologisches Notizblatt 3 (1) 1901
Ansermet E. Les fondements de la musique dans la conscience humaine A la Baconniere 1961
Arom S. La methode distributionnelle en ethnomusicologie, in: Actes du 1er Congres inernational de semiotique musicale Centro di Initiativa culturale 1975
Arom S. Systematique des musiques tradtionnelles d'Afrique, in: Monographies de semiologie et d'analyses musicales Faculte de Musique 1976
Arom S. "Comprendre la musique des autres", in: Recherche, pedagodie et culture
Auge M. Symbole, fonction, histoire : les interrogations de l'anthropologie Hachette (collection "Esprit critique" 1979
Augier P. "La musicolgie africaine a l'Institut national des Arts d'Abidjan", in: recherche, pedagogie et culture, 65/66 1984
BA, A.H. "La tradition viavante" in "Histoire generale de l'Afrique, vol. I Jeune afrique / Stock / UNESCO
Etc, etc
Quote from: pjme on December 12, 2007, 01:29:19 PM
There is more of course...but one needs to go to a good (real) library and take time to study everything that has been written on the complexity of African music.
Or perhaps you could simply, you know, listen to it.
Quote from: karlhenning on December 12, 2007, 01:16:14 PM
Are there limits to what can be achieved with the diatonic major scale?
No, but there may limits on how far you can go if you don't know what a diatonic major scale is.
But enough theory tak. If you can find one single instance in which African music has achieved the same level of brilliance of anything coming from the civilized west, well, by means, i'm all
ears.
But then most music gets better when you know something about it...
I've played some of it (or, better put, tried to). One of the professors I assisted in Virginia had studied drumming in Ghana for two years. He led a seminar; and as he knew me for a performer with a strong sense of rhythm, he asked me to sit in as one of the drummers. I had a great time. There is certainly a sense in which it is "simple" (though not only "simple"), but there is rich interplay with very basic elements. The fact is, I learnt rhythmic lessons, from sitting in on that seminar, that I continue to use in my composition. It is a robust and adaptable practice.
"Just listening to it" is a variable-quality criterion, depending upon the critical tools of the listener. And some listeners' critical tools are corrupted by prejudgment at the outset, you know.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 12, 2007, 01:39:11 PM
No, but there may limits on how far you can go if you don't know what a diatonic major scale is.
I'm sorry, you seem to think that's an answer, but I don't understand it at all.
QuoteIf you can find one single instance in which African music has achieved the same level of brilliance of anything coming from the civilized west, well, by means, i'm all ears.
Give us the bullet-points which define
levels of brilliance, please.
Yet another conversation on this forum chasing its tail; most of us already acknowledge the problematic nature of comparison.
And here you are, playing cultural Darwinist, holding one tradition as a bludgeon to beat another tradition.
All I know is that these rhythms led to a rich legacy of blues and jazz, etc.
Quote from: MN Dave on December 12, 2007, 01:46:45 PM
All I know is that these rhythms led to a rich legacy of blues and jazz, etc.
And they're loads of fun! (Oops! Self-indulgence rears its ugly head! ;D)
Several years ago I went to an African drum and dance "performance." (I put that word in quotes because of the music's participatory nature.) I found the rhythms not particularly complex, but definitely hypnotic in the best sense. Same with the dancing and singing. Four hours went by like minutes! :D (The white drummers tended to tap their drums, while the Africans pounded. And pounded. And... ;D)
African music, though, has a much different function than Euro-American classical music. While "our" music has become identified with quasi-dramatic performances, their music is meant for community-building. They often celebrate peace agreements between villages with a dance that involves drummers and dancers from both villages drumming and dancing together. The effect is more like that of a community sing-along than a concert. Definitely apples and oranges. :)
Quote from: James on December 12, 2007, 10:13:08 AM
CONLON NANCARROW!!!!
yep, him or Ferneyhough...... African rhythms will never be as complex as those guys' rhythms, no music will be except anything that's written down (and would end up being classified as avant-garde classical if it's that complex anyways)
Quote from: karlhenning on December 12, 2007, 01:41:42 PM
I've played some of it (or, better put, tried to). One of the professors I assisted in Virginia had studied drumming in Ghana for two years. He led a seminar; and as he knew me for a performer with a strong sense of rhythm, he asked me to sit in as one of the drummers. I had a great time. There is certainly a sense in which it is "simple" (though not only "simple"), but there is rich interplay with very basic elements. The fact is, I learnt rhythmic lessons, from sitting in on that seminar, that I continue to use in my composition. It is a robust and adaptable practice.
"Just listening to it" is a variable-quality criterion, depending upon the critical tools of the listener. And some listeners' critical tools are corrupted by prejudgment at the outset, you know.
wow, sounds like fun! :D
and the participation thing, too..... yeah, that has to be half the fun!
Quote from: karlhenning on December 12, 2007, 01:44:43 PM
most of us already acknowledge the problematic nature of comparison.
A self imposed limitation. I pose myself no such problems. By this i don't proclaim to be absolute arbiter of artistic truth, and i expect to be proven wrong on many an occation, but i can still try.
Quote from: karlhenning on December 12, 2007, 01:44:43 PM
And here you are, playing cultural Darwinist, holding one tradition as a bludgeon to beat another tradition.
As opposed to playing cultural egalitarianism, holding one tradition within the same breath of the other even though there's a difference of 8000 years of accumulated knowledge between them?
Quote from: karlhenning on December 12, 2007, 01:44:43 PM
Give us the bullet-points which define levels of brilliance, please.
With pleasure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzj6Q61h3oA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXYbGr5RaKM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR7eUSFsn28
What say ye?
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 12, 2007, 01:11:55 PM
Karl, you are not being perspective enough.
Gotta say, that's the most ironic statement in the whole thread. ::)
Here's what prompted this thread:
"[Gunther] Schuller claims that African rhythm is, by far, the most complicated form of music that exists. Only in the last half of this century [the 20th], and only with the aid of sophisticated electronic devices, has the non-African mind been able to measure and comprehend the complexity of African rhythm. We have learned that master African drummers can sense and create differences of 1/12 second while engaged in ensemble playing and produce seven to eleven different musical lines. What is remarkable is not the number of lines, but, as Schuller notes: "in the case of a seven-part ensemble, six of the seven lines may operate in different metric patterns...staggered in such a way that the downbeats of these patterns rarely coincide." (Schuller, Early Jazz.) In Joplin's Maple Leaf Rag, Schuller finds "the American Negro was again asserting an irrepressible urge to maintain two rhythms simultaneously within the white man's musical framework." and maintains that "jazz inflection and syncopation did not come from Europe, because there is no precedent for them in European 'art music'."" -- Grover Sales, Jazz: America's Classical Music
Quote from: MN Dave on December 12, 2007, 04:26:25 PM
Here's what prompted this thread:
"[Gunther] Schuller claims that African rhythm is, by far, the most complicated form of music that exists. Only in the last half of this century [the 20th], and only with the aid of sophisticated electronic devices, has the non-African mind been able to measure and comprehend the complexity of African rhythm. We have learned that master African drummers can sense and create differences of 1/12 second while engaged in ensemble playing and produce seven to eleven different musical lines. What is remarkable is not the number of lines, but, as Schuller notes: "in the case of a seven-part ensemble, six of the seven lines may operate in different metric patterns...staggered in such a way that the downbeats of these patterns rarely coincide." (Schuller, Early Jazz.) In Joplin's Maple Leaf Rag, Schuller finds "the American Negro was again asserting an irrepressible urge to maintain two rhythms simultaneously within the white man's musical framework." and maintains that "jazz inflection and syncopation did not come from Europe, because there is no precedent for them in European 'art music'."" -- Grover Sales, Jazz: America's Classical Music
ok, i'm about to take a drive over to his house (shouldn't be too far) and hand him a Ferneyhough CD.
Quote from: G...R...E...G... on December 12, 2007, 04:28:54 PM
ok, i'm about to take a drive over to his house (shouldn't be too far) and hand him a Ferneyhough CD.
Ferneyhough is rarely as rhythmically complex as Schuller's description, though.
At least, not in the scores I've seen.
You think all this is complex? Nothing is as complex as what this puts out!
(http://www.minimus.biz/images/F25-2509105-4100bg.jpg) :o :o :o
Gunther Schuller is an exceptionally learned and intelligent man, with a superb ear for rhythm (as a reading of his The Compleat Conductor will attest). I would put more credit in his judgments than in the opinions of several on this thread.
Quote from: MN Dave on December 12, 2007, 01:46:45 PM
All I know is that these rhythms led to a rich legacy of blues and jazz, etc.
Nobody is saying either wise, and from the get go i have already given my due to African's rhythmical mastery. However, that goes a long way from claiming African drumming, regardless of it's staggering virtuosity, just isn't as accomplished as anything produced by European art. It's not even a question of complexity (if that meant anything who would need Beethoven when we have Ferneyhough?), you cannot expect primitive societies to produce anything akin to a Bach for the same reason they cannot produce an Aristotle. How is this not common sense?
Quote from: James on December 12, 2007, 04:55:36 PM
haha...
& Schuller/Sales are off the mark, starting from the opening line...
He's partially wrong about the last line too, since there is a precedence of syncopation in western art. Not that it played any role whatsoever in the formation of Jazz, which is obviously based on African tradition (as if anybody ever doubted this).
Quote from: Sforzando on December 12, 2007, 05:03:59 PM
Gunther Schuller is an exceptionally learned and intelligent man, with a superb ear for rhythm (as a reading of his The Compleat Conductor will attest). I would put more credit in his judgments than in the opinions of several on this thread.
Gunther Schuller fails to mention that 'negroes' have a genetic advantage in reaction time, endurance and muscular strength, which is why today they dominate sports, even though they represent circa 10% of the population (do the math).
Of course, if he did mention that, he would be crucified faster then any African polyrhythm.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 12, 2007, 05:28:19 PM
Not that it played any role whatsoever in the formation of Jazz, which is obviously based on African tradition (as if anybody ever doubted this).
It played a partial role. Jazz isn't purely African.
Quote from: MN Dave on December 12, 2007, 05:32:49 PM
It played a partial role. Jazz isn't purely African.
Jazz rhythm is based on African music, which is what i meant.
Not to mention, percussions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D3UL24Ogtk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrKShqNkcnI&feature=related
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 12, 2007, 05:32:15 PM
Gunther Schuller fails to mention that 'negroes' have a genetic advantage in reaction time, endurance and muscular strength, which is why today they dominate sports, even though they represent circa 10% of the population (do the math).
Of course, if he did mention that, he would be crucified faster then any African polyrhythm.
I hear the hammers pounding now...Wait! That's really an African polyrhythm! ;D
Quote from: James on December 12, 2007, 10:13:08 AM
Beethoven, who wrote piano sonatas in 3/8, 12/8, 9/16 and 11/16, and string quartets in ; Bach, who wrote in 7/8 and 12/16; Chopin, who wrote in 2/8, 6/4 and 12/4; Bartok, who wrote in 7/4, 8/4, 9/4 and many others; Barber, who wrote in 9/4, 14/8, 18/8 and many others; Leos Janacek, who wrote in 13/8, Elgar, who wrote in 9/8; and Stravinsky, who wrote in too many bizarre signatures to count.
I can't quite understand why this has been allowed to pass uncommented upon. James's general point is good - between the incredible complexities of the ars subtilis and the mertical modulation of Carter, the irrational time signatures and multiple nested tuplets of Ferneyhough et al, the polytempi of Nancarrow lie reams of extraordinary rhythmical complexity in western music, quite unlike the polyrhythms and accumlating ostinati of African music in technique and in intention. An important thing to be noted is that western music developed a sophisticated rhythmic notation which allowed such complexities to be codified, written down, pondered upon, refined, practised etc. etc. The complexities of African music - and there are certainly complexities there - are of a different sort.
But this bizarre list of time signatures occurring in the classical canon leaves me baffled, for two reasons.
1) it presupposes that if a time signature has an unusual number on the top or the bottom, it is therefore ultra complex. Someone needs to break it to James that none of 3/8, 12/8, 9/16, 12/16, 2/8, 6/4, 12/4, 9/4 or 9/8 are complex or unusual in any way, at least not intrinsically (some of them are amongst the most common time signatures of all). Presenting them as if they are in themselves indicative of great rhythmical complexity, I'm afraid, betrays a real lack of musical understanding on a technical level.
2) where the hell is the Beethoven sonata movement in 11/16??? ??? ??? Or the Bach piece in 7/8? Why mention that Chopin wrote things in such straightforward time signatures as 2/8, 6/4 and 12/4 but not the much more obvious and unusual 5/4 that is found in his first piano sonata (though it's something of a failed experiment)?
a third point, too:
3) time signatures are not in themselves indicative of complexity, even when they
are irregular or asymmetrically grouped, which most of James' examples are not. Complexity is more likely to be found in subdivisions of the metre, in changing meter, in changing tempo, in polyrhythms, or in combinations of these. Bach never wrote a piece in 7/8, then, AFAIK, but he did write a piece (the G major violin sonata) which begins by layering implied metres of 3/8, 3/4 and 4/4; Beethoven never wrote in 11/16 but there is enough complexity in the subdivisions of the beat in op 111 to keep most people busy for a while. Likewise Janacek's rhythmical complexity is best shown not in irregular time signatures (I don't recall the 13/8 James mentions, but there is a recurrent 17/16 in Mladi, and 5/4 is important in the Glagolitic Mass and the Intimate Letters quartet, for starters) but in the tricky polyrhythm 5:7:3 (also therefore the subdivisions of some of these - 6, 12 etc) also to be found in the Glagolitic. Or in the original version - it was too tricky for the orchestra who performed the premiere, so Janacek straightened it out into simple 3/4; supposed to be a temporary measure, unfortunately it remained in all scores and performances until recently, when the correct version began to be played again.
Well, assuming Africa/particular african societies have made comparable serious progress in music, music science and music theory in the last centuries like e.g. europe, then yes, we can try to compare african music with e.g. classical music.
I feel really sorry and don't go well with all those day dreamers out there, but my eyes tell me, no, we are two different worlds. This is not necessarily bad. I know people from ghana and can tell: completely different worlds in every department.
African "music" serves a different purpose to its society being associated with religion and ceremony. It has been taking in by African popular music and expanded in the Caribbean where it mingled with many cultures. Comparing or seeking it in western classical music doesn't seem productive. Composers have quoted rhythms from many traditions but usually as a coloristic resource. Occasionally a work of interest appears but I can't think of many using indigenous African music.
Quote from: lukeottevanger on December 13, 2007, 12:34:07 AM
I can't quite understand why this has been allowed to pass uncommented upon.
As a newcomer, call it just careless skimming on my part. But of course everything you say is 100% accurate - meters like 2/8, 3/8, 9/4, 12/16, etc. being nothing more than simple triple or duple - and there are certainly no examples of 11s or 7s in Bach or Beethoven. And in pre-20th-century music, even the occasional use of 5/4 time signatures - as Tchaikovsky does in the 6th symphony and one of the divertissements in the Sleeping Beauty - is not evidence per se of especial rhythmic complexity. In both cases, once the basic rhythmic/melodic motific patterns are set, there is little if any rhythmic variation. Also, the occasional use of 5/4 in Western music, at least in examples like the mad scene from Handel's Orlando or the climax of Tristan's frenzy in Act 3 of Wagner's opera, is specifically associated with mental breakdown.
What you do find in a composer like Mozart is unusual phrase lengths of music in common meter. The opening of the Marriage of Figaro overture consists of a first phrase of 7 4/4 bars (3+4), then a phrase of 4 (2+2), and then one of 6, before the whole pattern repeats. But despite this degree of rhythmic flexibility, comparing a Western musical language to the African is such an apples-to-orange proposition as to be meaningless.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 12, 2007, 05:32:15 PM
Gunther Schuller fails to mention that 'negroes' have a genetic advantage in reaction time, endurance and muscular strength, which is why today they dominate sports, even though they represent circa 10% of the population (do the math).
What does this have to do with the rhythmic complexity of African music?
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 12, 2007, 03:14:25 PM
A self imposed limitation.
No, but that's an assertion you are unsuccessfully seeking to impose on the discussion.
QuoteAs opposed to playing cultural egalitarianism
Strawman. You must enjoy those, eh?
Quote from: Anacho on December 13, 2007, 01:32:21 AM
African "music" serves a different purpose to its society being associated with religion and ceremony.
Sort of like plainchant, roughly speaking.
Quote from: Sforzando on December 13, 2007, 02:38:45 AM
And in pre-20th-century music, even the occasional use of 5/4 time signatures - as Tchaikovsky does in the 6th symphony and one of the divertissements in the Sleeping Beauty - is not evidence per se of especial rhythmic complexity. In both cases, once the basic rhythmic/melodic motific patterns are set, there is little if any rhythmic variation.
Actually, while the general idea that
Tchaikovsky sets a pattern which repeats for a time is sound enough (something which I also found true in the African drumming seminar I've mentioned), there is more suppleness in his rhythmic play in the quasi-
Valse of the
Sixth Symphony than you give him credit for. The A sections are based on a two-bar pattern of [( 3 + 2) + (2 + 3)], and the B section is a fairly steady [2 + 3] pulse.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 12, 2007, 05:32:15 PM
Gunther Schuller fails to mention that 'negroes' have a genetic advantage in reaction time, endurance and muscular strength, which is why today they dominate sports, even though they represent circa 10% of the population (do the math).
When you make remarks like this, there is a rich irony in your calling anything "primitive."
Quote from: karlhenning on December 13, 2007, 04:00:28 AM
Sort of like plainchant, roughly speaking.
Or the choral music of Bach, roughly speaking.
Quote from: karlhenning on December 13, 2007, 04:05:27 AM
Actually, while the general idea that Tchaikovsky sets a pattern which repeats for a time is sound enough (something which I also found true in the African drumming seminar I've mentioned), there is more suppleness in his rhythmic play in the quasi-Valse of the Sixth Symphony than you give him credit for. The A sections are based on a two-bar pattern of [( 3 + 2) + (2 + 3)], and the B section is a fairly steady [2 + 3] pulse.
I can't find a score online to add as an image, but I hear the entire movement as 2+3. Think of the first two bars:
F# G (quarters) | AGA (quarter triplet) B C# (quarters)
D B (quarters) | C# (dotted half)
I don't hear it as:
F# G (quarters) AGA (quarter triplet) | B C# (quarters)
D B (quarters) | C# (dotted half)
Suppleness there certainly is, but it arises more from variations in the melodic curve than from strictly rhythmic means.
Quote from: Sforzando on December 13, 2007, 05:30:09 AM
I can't find a score online to add as an image, but I hear the entire movement as 2+3. Think of the first two bars:
F# G# (quarters) | AG#A (quarter triplet) B C# (quarters)
D B (quarters) | C# (dotted half)
I don't hear it as:
F# G# (quarters) AG#A (quarter triplet) | B C# (quarters)
D B (quarters) | C# (dotted half)
This can depend upon performance/interpretation, I guess. I do generally hear those triplets as a pickup; I think it a little unmusical to "push" that triplet figure as a metrical accent.
Quote from: karlhenning on December 13, 2007, 05:33:36 AM
This can depend upon performance/interpretation, I guess. I do generally hear those triplets as a pickup; I think it a little unmusical to "push" that triplet figure as a metrical accent.
I will have to check the score tonight in order to respond. It never felt "unmusical" to me to hear the pattern as 2+3.
That's all right; chalk it up to personal taste.
Quote from: Anacho on December 13, 2007, 01:32:21 AM
African "music" serves a different purpose to its society being associated with religion and ceremony.
As one would learn in any Music History 101 class, our classical cannon has exactly the same roots.
Minor erratum: you mean canon, with one interior n.
I couldn't care less about time signatures and the arithmetic of rythms, be they European, African or Klingonian. What I care for is feelings, emotions and thoughts expressed by the music. African drumming can be 10.000 times more complex than a string quartet, or the other way around; if it says nothing to my soul, I have no use for it.
I want to write a piece for string quartet and three drummers.
Quote from: karlhenning on December 13, 2007, 06:10:09 AM
I want to write a piece for string quartet and three drummers.
I can hardly wait to hear it! :)
Quote from: Florestan on December 13, 2007, 06:08:50 AM
I couldn't care less about time signatures and the arithmetic of rythms, be they European, African or Klingonian. What I care for is feelings, emotions and thoughts expressed by the music. African drumming can be 10.000 times more complex than a string quartet, or the other way around; if it says nothing to my soul, I have no use for it.
Of course.
Quote from: Sforzando on December 13, 2007, 02:39:32 AM
What does this have to do with the rhythmic complexity of African music?
Well, let's see, an art form that is based entirely on improvisation, interaction and reaction time. I'd say physical capability would dictate how far such an art could go.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 13, 2007, 06:29:01 AM
Well, let's see, an art form that is based entirely on improvisation, interaction and reaction time.
And at which such notable non-negros as
Bach and
Mozart excelled, right?
Quote from: James on December 13, 2007, 07:19:17 AM
harmony being the most sophisticated of all the musical elements
I'm sorry, remind me how that was determined?
Quote from: James on December 13, 2007, 07:19:17 AM
yes...many of those signatures i listed earlier aren't considered complex today, and aren't the be-all, end-all of rhythmic complexity, maybe irregular in some ways etc...but they are aren't simple either especially considering that they used those signatures to develop works of great length and complexity. That was the jist of my main point. So it's not-so simple rhythms in conjunction with a whole lot else going on; harmonically, melodically, texturally, sound color, form etc etc...Things get a lot more "complicated" rhythmically in a truer sense in the 20th for sure starting with Stravinsky onwards...
Still, no, the time signatures I selected from your list - which was the majority of them - are not complicated today but weren't complicated way back when either; they are all just common elaborations of triple or duple time, and the changing denominators (16, 8 etc) are merely a matter of notation, not of the metre itself. The ability to develop lengthy works in these metres is not any more a big deal than is the ability to write lengthy pieces in 3/4, 2/4 or 4/4.
Stil want to see that Beethoven piece in 11/16, btw... ;D ;)
Quote from: karlhenning on December 13, 2007, 07:24:28 AM
And at which such notable non-negros as Bach and Mozart excelled, right?
Bach and Mozart excelled in improvising exceedingly complex polyrhythms which is defacto the most
complex music in the world? I wasn't aware of that. :P
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 13, 2007, 07:45:18 AM
Bach and Mozart excelled in improvising exceedingly complex polyrhythms which is defacto the most complex music in the world? I wasn't aware of that. :P
I don't blame you for not reading your own words. So I'll spell this out in a paraphrase.
In their practice of the art of performance,
Bach and
Mozart excelled in improvisation, interaction and reaction time.
Quote from: James on December 13, 2007, 07:37:26 AM
Common sense...read on, carefully..."whereas rhythm and melody came naturally to us, harmony gradually evolved from what was partly an intellectual conception - no doubt one of the most original (& complex) conceptions of the human mind."
(a) I don't believe that any impermeable curtain separates rhythm and melody as "naturally occurring" and harmony as "intellectual evolution"; rhythm and melody have been subject to intellectual evolution, and harmony occurs naturally when women and men sing together — the harmonic result is necessarily not unison but some other interval, and if personal experience is any guide, not at all necessarily a perfect octave, either.
(b) On the whole, I don't have any great quarrel with the idea that harmony is in part a 'sophisticated elaboration' on the element of melody. Still, since melody can be developed in distinct ways, I am not sure that puts melody in an immutably inferior place to harmony with regard to sophistication. How would compare and weigh harmonic sophistication with melodic sophistication?
(c) Common sense actually tells me that to claim that harmony is naturally more sophisticated than rhythm is a bit like claiming that an oak is more of a tree than a linden.
Quote from: James on December 13, 2007, 07:37:26 AM
I disagree, as a whole when used in developing works of great complexity it is certainly is a big deal...
Sorry to hammer this point, James, but
how, precisely, is 3/8 a more tricky time sig to write a complex work in than 3/4?
Quote from: karlhenning on December 13, 2007, 07:56:46 AM
In their practice of the art of performance, Bach and Mozart excelled in improvisation, interaction and reaction time.
Yes but improvisation, interaction and reaction time aren't finite values. There are degrees to consider and i don't think that in terms of sheer physical prowess there's anything in the Western canon that compares to Jazz improvisation. Correct me if i'm wrong.
BTW. Who's the most famous african composer of classical music for big orchestras?
Quote from: Wurstwasser on December 13, 2007, 09:25:24 AM
BTW. Who's the most famous african composer of classical music for big orchestras?
Ellington?
http://chevalierdesaintgeorges.homestead.com/Others.html
From Le chevalier de Saint Georges to Adolphus Hailstorck - take your pick!
Peter
Quote from: pjme on December 13, 2007, 10:03:37 AMFrom Le chevalier de Saint Georges to Adolphus Hailstorck - take your pick!
Any remarkable works worth a try? Not chamber, bigger orchestras...
Saint-George's Violin concerti are nice in the classical style. Actually, they're better than Mozart's (Violin concerti weren't Mozart best medium). I think my favourite would be the A major one (2nd?)
Quote from: Morigan on December 13, 2007, 10:46:34 AM
Saint-George's Violin concerti are nice in the classical style. Actually, they're better than Mozart's (Violin concerti weren't Mozart best medium). I think my favourite would be the A major one (2nd?)
Is that a portrait of Norbert Burgmueller you have there?
Nope!
This is a spurious picture of Schubert as a teenager. It has been found a few years ago that the picture doesn't show the composer, but the physician Dr. Karl Josef Hartmann from Wels, a friend of Schubert.
I thought it was Schubert when I started using it, but now I'm used to this avatar and I keep it anyway. :)
Quote from: James on December 13, 2007, 08:32:43 AM
that wasnt my point, the tricky part is that there are many more variables involved on top of whichever signature involved, and overall as a musical whole its much more meticulous & concentrated...
That's little disingenuous, James - it's quite clear from this:
Quote from: Jamesthere is hordes of rhythmic complexity in the great classical legacy... Beethoven, who wrote piano sonatas in 3/8, 12/8, 9/16 and 11/16, and string quartets in ; Bach, who wrote in 7/8 and 12/16; Chopin, who wrote in 2/8, 6/4 and 12/4; Bartok, who wrote in 7/4, 8/4, 9/4 and many others; Barber, who wrote in 9/4, 14/8, 18/8 and many others; Leos Janacek, who wrote in 13/8, Elgar, who wrote in 9/8; and Stravinsky, who wrote in too many bizarre signatures to count.
that you were trying to give examples of 'complex' time signatures; if your intention had been only to show that the 'variables involved on top' are often very complex in western music (undeniably true) there would be no need to talk about individual time signatures at all.
Quote from: karlhenning on December 13, 2007, 05:44:53 AM
That's all right; chalk it up to personal taste.
Based on the slurs, accompaniment patterns, and harmonic shifts as seen in the score, I consider my interpretation valid.
Quote from: lukeottevanger on December 13, 2007, 01:14:58 PM
That's little disingenuous, James - it's quite clear from this:
that you were trying to give examples of 'complex' time signatures; if your intention had been only to show that the 'variables involved on top' are often very complex in western music (undeniably true) there would be no need to talk about individual time signatures at all.
Of course there is a great deal of rhythmic complexity in Western music. What one does not generally encounter before the 20th-century are rapid changes of meter within a single piece, and significant use of irregular (i.e., not duple or triple) time signatures.
Whoa whoa whoa...are we all infected by 71db here? What's this "complexity" phenomenon? Who gives a shit if ANY music is complex or as simple as 123, mary has a little lamb can be great music too.
Complexity =/= Good music
Good reminder.
Quote from: Bonehelm on December 13, 2007, 03:29:38 PM
Whoa whoa whoa...are we all infected by 71db here? What's this "complexity" phenomenon? Who gives a shit if ANY music is complex or as simple as 123, mary has a little lamb can be great music too.
Yeah, let's not talk about music. Let's talk about why your screen name is Bonehead.
Quote from: MN Dave on December 13, 2007, 04:21:35 PM
Yeah, let's not talk about music. Let's talk about why your screen name is Bonehead.
It's probably because I am more imaginative than someone who uses his initials as their username.
Quote from: Bonehelm on December 13, 2007, 06:23:28 PM
It's probably because I am more imaginative than someone who uses his initials as their username.
;D
Quote from: Bonehelm on December 13, 2007, 03:29:38 PM
Whoa whoa whoa...are we all infected by 71db here? What's this "complexity" phenomenon? Who gives a shit if ANY music is complex or as simple as 123, mary has a little lamb can be great music too.
Complexity =/= Good music
But do you truly believe "mary has a little lamb" to be as musically great as the Mahler 3rd? Granted, music can be overcomplicated - Richard Strauss and Max Reger are perenially guilty of that sin - but how many pieces do you truly admire that are not the products of a mature and complex mind?
Quote from: Sforzando on December 13, 2007, 02:39:39 PM
Based on the slurs, accompaniment patterns, and harmonic shifts as seen in the score, I consider my interpretation valid.
To me, that looks clearly like 2+3 from that excerpt there...
Quote from: Bonehelm on December 13, 2007, 03:29:38 PM
Whoa whoa whoa...are we all infected by 71db here? What's this "complexity" phenomenon? Who gives a shit if ANY music is complex or as simple as 123, mary has a little lamb can be great music too.
Complexity =/= Good music
Err... no-one mentioned anything about good music having to be complex. The only question was whether African music is more rhythmically complex than Classical.
Besides that however,
I do "give a shit" if the music I listen to is simple or complex, as I personally find music more complex than Mary Had A Little Lamb to be more enjoyable - but that's just me. Feel free to listen to Mary Had A Little Lamb all you want, if that's the music you enjoy. ;D
Who cares if its more complex or not, it has a better groove
Quote from: bwv 1080 on December 13, 2007, 07:36:30 PMWho cares if its more complex or not, it has a better groove
http://youtube.com/watch?v=90j8szEimgc
It's about africa, so we call it "groove", if the above video was a pop song, we'd point the stupid rhythm out... If stuff like this plays a role in africa (I'm sure it does), then comparing this to classical is useless. It's like comparing the us spaceship program with the psychology of a Epithelantha micromeris cactus.
Quote from: Wurstwasser on December 13, 2007, 08:27:37 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=90j8szEimgc
It's about africa, so we call it "groove", if the above video was a pop song, we'd point the stupid rhythm out... If stuff like this plays a role in africa (I'm sure it does), then comparing this to classical is useless. It's like comparing the us spaceship program with the psychology of a Epithelantha micromeris cactus.
Do you actually listen to African music or just make ignorant generalizations about it? Try to notate that first break
or this:
http://www.youtube.com/v/2cU19URUe6o
Quote from: bwv 1080 on December 13, 2007, 07:36:30 PM
Who cares if its more complex or not, it has a better groove
And for all the undoubted greatness of Western classical music, that's one thing it very often lacks, at least compared to a lot of African or African-derived musics (funk, jazz, blues, etc.).
As for simplicity versus complexity, complex pieces can provide more intellectual food for thought, and complexity might be needed to sustain works written on a grand scale, but of greater importance to me is whether a piece moves me emotionally, spiritually, and/or physically, and relatively "simple" works can do the latter just fine.
Quote from: bwv 1080 on December 13, 2007, 08:34:14 PMDo you actually listen to African music or just make ignorant generalizations about it? Try to notate that first break
or this:
http://www.youtube.com/v/2cU19URUe6o
So what does this tell in your opinion? I hear drum, rhythm and dance based stuff and thought "Autechre and such are more interesting for me, when it comes to rhythm". What I see is it makes no sense to compare drums and rhythm based stuff like this with Bruckners output for instance.
I need more disorder :D
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.archive.org/download/sute006/01_Revel.MP3[/mp3]
Older traditional stuff, with less influence back from the Western pop it lead to, is interesting- I had a Senegalese disc once with complex drumming.
Quote from: Drasko on December 13, 2007, 04:41:38 PM
You really think so?
Or rather, there is a point which it is well to remember, that good vs. bad music does not align onto a complexity vs. simplicity axis.
Your question is apt, of course,
Milos. I'm not sure I understand
Bonehelm's reminder 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on December 14, 2007, 05:09:38 AM
Or rather, there is a point which it is well to remember, that good vs. bad music does not align onto a complexity vs. simplicity axis.
Your question is apt, of course, Milos. I'm not sure I understand Bonehelm's reminder 8)
Only he(?) understands it. ;D
Quote from: James on December 14, 2007, 09:02:47 AM
African & Indian music has amazing grooves - but groove, and most of what is inspired from it, is so nailed to the floor ...so it cannot function beyond the primitive.
No, I don't agree. A groove is a musical tool, like many another; how and where it can function, depends on the mastery of the artist.
Quote from: James on December 14, 2007, 09:02:47 AM
African & Indian music has amazing grooves - but groove, and most of what is inspired from it, is so nailed to the floor ...so it cannot function beyond the primitive.
Not saying that intense groove doesn't have it's own qualities ... but if we tally up the pros & cons, it is irrefutably the case that the immense beauty, mystery and cogency of music is OBLITERATED by the tyrranical groove...
It's so dull so quickly ... it's low consciousness stuff !
As
Karl has mentioned, that depends on the composer. One thinks of various things by
Prokofiev (Scythian Suite) in this instance, or the complex rhythms found in
Erwartung by
Schoenberg, or the
Scherzo of the
Ninth Symphony by
Bruckner, where the rhythmic impulse gathers into a kind of mysterious spiritual terror.
....or Tippett, one of the most individual 'rhythmiciens' (Messiaen's word) of the lot (and my current obsession - what a shame there's so little of him). Groove there aplenty. Try, for instance, those (quasi-African?) accumulations of ostinati that come towards the end of the gorgeous Triple Concerto. Sophisticated in the extreme, yet primal too. (Of course, this is a piece that bears the imprint of other non-Western musics too)
Quote from: lukeottevanger on December 14, 2007, 09:37:30 AM
....or Tippett, one of the most individual 'rhythmiciens' (Messiaen's word) of the lot (and my current obsession - what a shame there's so little of him).
Yes, he's been one of my musical obsessions of 2007!
Don't get me started, Karl! The man was a marvel.
bmp-SCH-bmp-SCH-bmp-SCH-bmp-SCH
Quote from: Sean on December 14, 2007, 04:59:37 AM
Older traditional stuff, with less influence back from the Western pop it lead to, is interesting
Indeed. African music is currently being obliterated by it's pop counterpart, and to find the real complex stuff you'll have to look to their traditional stock.
A couple of good examples can be found in the 'African Rhythms' recording with Pierre-Laurent Aimard, which has real pygmy music recorded in a real studio, a rarity for this kind of music and a good opportunity to examine it in greater detail.
I'm sure you're right on this Josquin.
Quote from: James on December 14, 2007, 09:02:47 AM
African & Indian music has amazing grooves - but groove, and most of what is inspired from it, is so nailed to the floor ...so it cannot function beyond the primitive.
Not saying that intense groove doesn't have it's own qualities ... but if we tally up the pros & cons, it is irrefutably the case that the immense beauty, mystery and cogency of music is OBLITERATED by the tyrranical groove...
It's so dull so quickly ... it's low consciousness stuff !
Not irrefutable, not primitive, not "low consciousness stuff". You're setting up a simplistic dichotomy or hierarchy that says more about your own mode of perception than the music. The physical or "primitive" is not antithetical to the lofty or spiritual but can indeed be a most powerful embodiment of it. And if you find something to dull so quickly, may that not say something about your lack of appreciation or understanding, and not necessarily the art itself?
I'm reminded of the King of the Moon in Terry Gilliam's
The Adventures of Baron Munchausen, whose head and body literally detach from each other and battle for supremacy, with the body chasing the Queen around and the head wanting to zip through the aether and think sublime thoughts.
even before i started listening to classical, when i used to write stuff on the guitar i dreamed up of music that didn't have a drum track that held everything together, but relied more on pure imagination without a constant pulse.... i also wondered about things you "couldn't" play, like various dischords...... but then, i got into classical! yay! ;D
Quote from: Grazioso on December 15, 2007, 05:11:13 AM
Not irrefutable, not primitive, not "low consciousness stuff". You're setting up a simplistic dichotomy or hierarchy that says more about your own mode of perception than the music. The physical or "primitive" is not antithetical to the lofty or spiritual but can indeed be a most powerful embodiment of it. And if you find something to dull so quickly, may that not say something about your lack of appreciation or understanding, and not necessarily the art itself?
I'm reminded of the King of the Moon in Terry Gilliam's The Adventures of Baron Munchausen, whose head and body literally detach from each other and battle for supremacy, with the body chasing the Queen around and the head wanting to zip through the aether and think sublime thoughts.
LOL I haven't seen that movie, but I love the mental image! ;)
The more I do music, the more I feel it bringing together my body, my mind, and my spirit. We need this, we Americans whose bodies and souls are so alienated from each other. And folk musics just might show us the way.
I think we should give African music its due (and Indian too) although it is a large continent and there will be variations in quality. Music has come down from ancient civilizations and to that extent one must consider it can be sophisticated rather than 'primitive'. On the other hand, those adherents who claim superior rhythmic complexity are really missing the point. There are many ways to be rhythmically complex beyond simultaneous drumming and once doesn't need a fancy time signature. An eight bar phrase in crotchets, 4:4 can be written in 4294,967,296 different rhythms.