Some people feel Enya shouldn't be in the same category as Yanni, but I disagree. Her music is lyric and very harmonic, unlike all the distortion and bleeps and bloops of popular music.
I am sorry, but I am not familiar with either Yanni & Enya.
Are they a Austrain Jodel couple? ;D
I wouldn't classify either as being classical composers. If I had to listen to one of them, I'd go with Enya.
Until they crank out something like a sonata or a symphony, the question is invalid.
Enya never gets beyond the first chapters of a basic harmony and composition textbook. :'(
But that has been enough to allow her to live in an Irish castle! 8)
Yanni: I have never heard his stuff except perhaps inadvertently on TV commercials.
It seems their fans ought to pass the hat so the two can buy last names: Enya O'Flaherty, Yanni Petalas (which would indicate for Yanni a background of honest labor!).
So they are pop musicians?
Ach that explains why I did not know! ;D
A better question, or, a question with at least equal validity -- which country is more likely to win the most gold medals at the 2008 Beijing Olympics -- Maldives or Cape Verde?
Quote from: Cato on April 23, 2007, 06:21:48 AM
Until they crank out something like a sonata or a symphony, the question is invalid.
Enya never gets beyond the first chapters of a basic harmony and composition textbook. :'(
But that has been enough to allow her to live in an Irish castle! 8)
Yanni: I have never heard his stuff except perhaps inadvertently on TV commercials.
It seems their fans ought to pass the hat so the two can buy last names: Enya O'Flaherty, Yanni Petalas (which would indicate for Yanni a background of honest labor!).
So writing a sonata or a symphony, in other words established form, makes someone a classical composer? Or rather, making only music that doesn't fit an established classical form excludes it from being classical?
I'll come out right now admit that I made this thread as a joke because one of my friends had gotten angry that people kept knocking Enya, and suggested that if it happened again he might do something rather unplesent with his feces. Considering the normal listening audience of Enya and Yanni, I found that very funny, and wondered how you guy's would respond to such a question.
I honestly like both of their music. So maybe my real question is, why should we make a distinction between classical music and plain ol' good music?
Quote from: Sungam on April 23, 2007, 11:05:52 AM
So maybe my real question is, why should we make a distinction between classical music and plain ol' good music?
We shouldn't.
It just so happens that the vast majority of "good" music is "classical" music . . . . . .
Quote from: Harry on April 23, 2007, 06:23:16 AM
So they are pop musicians?
Ach that explains why I did not know! ;D
They make "commercial new age". I listen to new age but I can't stand the crap these "artists" make.
Harry, even if you listen to only classical music it would not harm to look around. ;)
Quote from: Sungam on April 23, 2007, 11:05:52 AM
So writing a sonata or a symphony, in other words established form, makes someone a classical composer? Or rather, making only music that doesn't fit an established classical form excludes it from being classical?
I'll come out right now admit that I made this thread as a joke because one of my friends had gotten angry that people kept knocking Enya, and suggested that if it happened again he might do something rather unplesent with his feces. Considering the normal listening audience of Enya and Yanni, I found that very funny, and wondered how you guy's would respond to such a question.
I honestly like both of their music. So maybe my real question is, why should we make a distinction between classical music and plain ol' good music?
My emphasis above: Answers to Questions #1 and #2: No and No. Because it was obvious the topic is for fun: (see above.)
Classical is however distinguished by forms longer than the 3 to 5-minute pop tune: so, yes, you can make a distinction. You can also make a general distinction between good and bad music (Enya vs. Crap Rap) in popular music and in classical (Beethoven vs. Ferde Grofe).
Quote from: 71 dB on April 23, 2007, 11:15:20 AM
They make "commercial new age". I listen to new age but I can't stand the crap these "artists" make.
Harry, even if you listen to only classical music it would not harm to look around. ;)
My dear friend, you will understand that time is the limiting factor, and that I have my hands full with classical cd's, all screaming at me that I play them! ;D
Quote from: 71 dB on April 23, 2007, 11:15:20 AM
Harry, even if you listen to only classical music it would not harm to look around. ;)
Quote from: Harry on April 23, 2007, 11:28:13 AM
My dear friend, you will understand that time is the limiting factor, and that I have my hands full with classical cd's, all screaming at me that I play them! ;D
Yes
71 dB - a bit of
Mahler now and then, and some
Sibelius of course... 8)
"Food for the masses", you know?
Yummy! ;D
Q
Quote from: Harry on April 23, 2007, 11:28:13 AM
My dear friend, you will understand that time is the limiting factor, and that I have my hands full with classical cd's, all screaming at me that I play them! ;D
Well, you should definitely keep away from Enya & Yanni. I mean these popular artists are everywhere in the media and one needs to keep eyes & ears closed to avoid them...
Quote from: Sungam on April 23, 2007, 11:05:52 AM
I honestly like both of their music.
And? Some people happen to like the Beatles, while others may prefer Miles Davis, that doesn't make those artists classical composers, does it?
why is this even in the "Composer Discussion" neither are "Classical" composers, this thread should be moved to the diner.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on April 23, 2007, 11:40:30 AM
And? Some people happen to like the Beatles, while others may prefer Miles Davis, that doesn't make those artists classical composers, does it?
As I wrote in the post you just quoted, the question was a joke designed to see how people on this forum would reply to the question "Which classical composer is better: Enya or Yanni?".
But in responce to the suggestion that the music of the Beatles or Miles Davis can be enjoyable; why, on this forum, do we limit our main discussion to music that is produced by those who's compositions usually fit classical forms?
Quote from: Cato on April 23, 2007, 11:17:15 AM
My emphasis above: Answers to Questions #1 and #2: No and No. Because it was obvious the topic is for fun: (see above.)
Classical is however distinguished by forms longer than the 3 to 5-minute pop tune: so, yes, you can make a distinction. You can also make a general distinction between good and bad music (Enya vs. Crap Rap) in popular music and in classical (Beethoven vs. Ferde Grofe).
I just bought a disk full of short compositions by Chopin, ones that I believe he composed to play in bars. Is it not classical?
You pose four catagores:
Good Classical
Bad Classical
Good Pop
Bad Pop
Why do we only discuss how to experience "good classical" and how to avoid "bad classical" rather than how to experience "good music" and how to avoid "bad music"?
Quote from: D Minor on April 23, 2007, 11:11:35 AM
We shouldn't.
It just so happens that the vast majority of "good" music is "classical" music . . . . . .
Of course that is an opinioin, one that is prevalent on this forum. I'm being facetious by asking these questions on a Classical Music forum, but my reasons for doing so are serious. Why is the music of Beethoven, Chopin, and a thousand others strictly cut off culturally from all other music?
Is this a joke?
Quote from: Sungam on April 23, 2007, 02:21:45 PM
Why do we only discuss how to experience "good classical" and how to avoid "bad classical" rather than how to experience "good music" and how to avoid "bad music"?
Of course that is an opinioin, one that is prevalent on this forum. I'm being facetious by asking these questions on a Classical Music forum, but my reasons for doing so are serious. Why is the music of Beethoven, Chopin, and a thousand others strictly cut off culturally from all other music?
I feel you're just playing games here. This is a classical music site (except for the Diner), and I have no interest in defining the differences between a Beethoven and a Yanni or Enya. I think the latter two suck, and it's a shame that either of them have made a penny out of their so-called music making.
Quote from: Don on April 23, 2007, 02:43:23 PM
I feel you're just playing games here. This is a classical music site (except for the Diner), and I have no interest in defining the differences between a Beethoven and a Yanni or Enya. I think the latter two suck, and it's a shame that either of them have made a penny out of their so-called music making.
^ What Don said
I'll just add that people make these kinds of general distinctions because they are useful. To say a piece is "classical" or "new age" does not tell anyone much, but they surely get a sense of what is to be expected. The semantical pedantry of it all, is it really important?
Quote from: Don on April 23, 2007, 02:43:23 PM
I feel you're just playing games here. This is a classical music site (except for the Diner), and I have no interest in defining the differences between a Beethoven and a Yanni or Enya. I think the latter two suck, and it's a shame that either of them have made a penny out of their so-called music making.
. . . I just wrote that I'm being facetious by posting this on a classical forum. The point is philosophical: Why should their be such rigid cultural distinctions between Classical/Pop/Jazz? Such lines are crossed all the time in popular genres such as Punk/Metal/Rock/Rap even Folk/Punk/Anarchist. If I asked such a question on a Metal forum, they would point to hundreds of threads that dealt with musicians that made various genre crossovers. Gym Class Heroes is a pop group, not a hit of rock 'n roll, yet their music is also purely acoustic.
Quote from: CS on April 23, 2007, 02:59:52 PM
^ What Don said
I'll just add that people make these kinds of general distinctions because they are useful. To say a piece is "classical" or "new age" does not tell anyone much, but they surely get a sense of what is to be expected. The semantical pedantry of it all, is it really important?
Consider the state of classical music. The only living classical composer which I like is Philip Glass, a man who set out into other cultures to learn a different kind of music because he was so frustrated with the instruction he received at Juilliard. Where is all the great classical music? I'm not the only one with this opinion, look at classicalarchives.com/articles/ and read the articles dealing with "the death of classical music".
Look at all the discussions on this forum. How many of the composers mentioned are still alive? Our generation should be be burying out the past with great new music that we, or people we know, are involved in making. And in a way, that is what is happening. While most indie music is keeping itself confined to the 3-5 minute length limit, with the notable exception of Post-Rock, much of it is inventive and catchy; something that should be familiar to lovers of Mozart and Beethoven.
Our composers who post their own music hear isn't bad, but consider. How is this music involving anyone beyond the composer who posts it? Where is the community orchestras getting together to preform the best new music in the area? I really expected the reaction I got at the beginning of the thread, but I was hoping that there would be some self-critical analysis of our own listening habits, not to mention the related fields of music production and creation.
Quote from: Keith Otis Edwards
MIMES WITH BATONS
As I discussed in previous rants, popular music has degenerated to the Lowest Common Denominator, consisting of nothing but pinched and nasal whining with dumb kids strumming random chords on loud guitars. Pop music does, however, put on a good show. There is elaborate lighting and nymphets dancing in their underwear and fireworks ignited on stage occasionally set fire to the building. It's all very exciting.
But what of classical music concerts? I would fain admit that I no longer attend many classical concerts, and the reason can be summed up in two words: bore ring.
When you registered with the Classical Archives, you probably didn't bother to read the full text of the terms you agreed to, and you are thus unaware of the fact that we are monitoring your activities whenever you access this site. For instance, we have seen on our screens that most older people who have read the previous paragraph become enraged, even apoplectic. Their reaction typically runs, This crude fellow has the temerity to state at the Classical Archives that classical music is boring?
I believe that the music itself is great, but the manner in which it is presented is dull, and I am not alone in this opinion. In his 1960 book, Crowds and Power Elias Canetti gives this description of classical music concerts.
All outward reactions are prohibited. People sit there motionless, as though they managed to hear nothing. It is obvious that a long and artificial training in stagnation has been necessary here.
This, from a cultured European who was awarded the Nobel Prize for his work, and he is quite correct—classical music has grown stagnant. A classical concert is an experience similar to attending worship in a Presbyterian church—perhaps spiritually enlightening, but hardly a thrill.
Quote from: Sungam on April 23, 2007, 03:07:22 PM
Consider the state of classical music. The only living classical composer which I like
I don't mean to infer more then necessary, but i hope you know your own personal tastes do not define the 'state' of classical music.
Quote from: Sungam on April 23, 2007, 03:07:22 PM
. . . I just wrote that I'm being facetious by posting this on a classical forum. The point is philosophical: Why should their be such rigid cultural distinctions between Classical/Pop/Jazz? Such lines are crossed all the time in popular genres such as Punk/Metal/Rock/Rap even Folk/Punk/Anarchist.
this isn't a philosophical thread, nor is this a philosophical forum.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on April 23, 2007, 03:27:33 PM
I don't mean to infer more then necessary, but i hope you know your own personal tastes do not define the 'state' of classical music.
Perhaps if the classical community would pay more attention to people with my opinion, their community orchestra's would be able to stay open and cd sales wouldn't be below that of esoteric metal genres.
Quote from: Sungam on April 23, 2007, 05:53:45 PM
Perhaps if the classical community would pay more attention to people with my opinion, their community orchestra's would be able to stay open and cd sales wouldn't be below that of esoteric metal genres.
What makes you think so?
Could this be moved to the Diner please, since this music is not classical, and therefore not part of this thread.
Thanks :)
Quote from: Harry on April 23, 2007, 11:14:10 PM
Could this be moved to the Diner please, since this music is not classical, and therefore not part of this thread.
Thanks :)
What's really sad Harry is the fact that both artists have been in the Classic FM chart list over here in the UK as "Classical" ;D
Takes crossover to the extreme!!
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on April 23, 2007, 11:16:06 PM
What's really sad Harry is the fact that both artists have been in the Classic FM chart list over here in the UK as "Classical" ;D
Takes crossover to the extreme!!
I am shocked. :P
Quote from: Sungam on April 23, 2007, 06:08:47 AM
Some people feel Enya shouldn't be in the same category as Yanni, but I disagree. Her music is lyric and very harmonic, unlike all the distortion and bleeps and bloops of popular music.
They ARE in the same category. Dreck.
Thomas
I don't think there would be any point in going to a primarily 'Rock' forum and trying to discuss Tallis. If there was a section set aside to cater to different tastes, then fine. Here, The Diner often contains such discussions; as indeed there are people here who like and will discuss other areas of music.
You claimed the initial post was facetious, indeed it was. As such I think you are getting quite a polite hearing for your world view on how to make classical music more popular and your instructions on how we all ought to think and behave, thanks.
Mike
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on April 23, 2007, 11:16:06 PM
What's really sad Harry is the fact that both artists have been in the Classic FM chart list over here in the UK as "Classical" ;D
Takes crossover to the extreme!!
That's possible because they need listeners. Enya & Yanni bring them. Here in Finland the Classic Radio isn't that bad but Hollywood movie soundtracks are played sometimes as classical music. :-\
Quote from: knight on April 24, 2007, 12:22:53 AM
I don't think there would be any point in going to a primarily 'Rock' forum and trying to discuss Tallis. If there was a section set aside to cater to different tastes, then fine. Here, The Diner often contains such discussions; as indeed there are people here who like and will discuss other areas of music.
You claimed the initial post was facetious, indeed it was. As such I think you are getting quite a polite hearing for your world view on how to make classical music more popular and your instructions on how we all ought to think and behave, thanks.
Mike
You guys have to be kidding me. Half the people here feel that replying with "There is nothing wrong with the state of classical music. We've been polite to hear you suggest that it there is something wrong, now run along" is listening "politely". I wasn't asking anyone for a polite hearing, I was trying to stir some interest the problems classical music has been facing for the past 80 years.
You act like I'm tell you all how "ought to think and behave". ?? You mean by posting things like:
Quote from: Sungam on April 23, 2007, 03:07:22 PM
. . . I just wrote that I'm being facetious by posting this on a classical forum. The point is philosophical: Why should their be such rigid cultural distinctions between Classical/Pop/Jazz? Such lines are crossed all the time in popular genres such as Punk/Metal/Rock/Rap even Folk/Punk/Anarchist. If I asked such a question on a Metal forum, they would point to hundreds of threads that dealt with musicians that made various genre crossovers. Gym Class Heroes is a pop group, not a hit of rock 'n roll, yet their music is also purely acoustic.
Consider the state of classical music. The only living classical composer which I like is Philip Glass, a man who set out into other cultures to learn a different kind of music because he was so frustrated with the instruction he received at Juilliard. Where is all the great classical music? I'm not the only one with this opinion, look at classicalarchives.com/articles/ and read the articles dealing with "the death of classical music".
Look at all the discussions on this forum. How many of the composers mentioned are still alive? Our generation should be be burying out the past with great new music that we, or people we know, are involved in making. And in a way, that is what is happening. While most indie music is keeping itself confined to the 3-5 minute length limit, with the notable exception of Post-Rock, much of it is inventive and catchy; something that should be familiar to lovers of Mozart and Beethoven.
Our composers who post their own music hear isn't bad, but consider. How is this music involving anyone beyond the composer who posts it? Where is the community orchestras getting together to preform the best new music in the area? I really expected the reaction I got at the beginning of the thread, but I was hoping that there would be some self-critical analysis of our own listening habits, not to mention the related fields of music production and creation.
And then being told that I'm telling people how to think and act? Quiet the opposite. I'm asking everyone here why they don't question how they themselves think and act. Why is this a problem? Why is it surprising?
Yes, fine, but you scuppered yourself from leaving it on the classical board with the title and what transpired from it and so, it sits here and can be discussed as seriously as you like.
Mike
Quote from: Sungam on April 24, 2007, 04:06:46 AM
I wasn't asking anyone for a polite hearing, I was trying to stir some interest the problems classical music has been facing for the past 80 years.
You don't seem to be able to separate NEW AGE from CLASSICAL. I guess so as you proposed us to come up with definitions I suppose you can not forge.
Then how do you think you can
produce a
good idea on how to
save the classical music? And after reading your first, and subsequents posts; why should we take those ideas, if ever generated, as valid?
Quote from: Sungam on April 23, 2007, 02:21:45 PM
I just bought a disk full of short compositions by Chopin, ones that I believe he composed to play in bars. Is it not classical?
Yes.
The hostility of some respondents here to the issues raised by Sungam is interesting. I think the problem of what music is "classical" vs. what "popular" is both intriguing and entirely suited to discussion on a classical forum. It cannot be simply a matter of "length," as there are very short Beethoven bagatelles, Chopin mazurkas, and the like. Nor can it necessarily be a matter of "complexity," as there are any number of Schubert songs that can be cited for their simplicity. Nor can it even be a matter of "catchiness," as there are certainly a number of classical tunes, like Papageno's songs from The Magic Flute, that are as catchy as anything popular.
An interesting approach to what distinguishes classical from popular music is found in Julian Johnson's Who Needs Classical Music? Even if you don't want to get the book and read it, the comments on Amazon.com will give a pretty good sense of what his argument is all about, and some of its shortcomings.
Quote from: MahlerTitan on April 23, 2007, 05:22:06 PM
this isn't a philosophical thread, nor is this a philosophical forum.
Why should the "philosophy" of what distinguishes classical from popular music be off-limits to a classical music forum?
The above two posts are exactly what I was looking for. He could be completely against popular music, or against any real change in how things are done within the classical community, the only thing I was looking for was that the subject itself is "entirely suited to discussion on a classical forum".
I probably would have had more luck had I not titled the thread "Yanni or Enya" but I figured people who appreciate the irony of asking such a question on a classical forum. What I wonder is why this topic was moved to the diner, which is limited to "Discuss anything, music excepted."
Quote from: Manuel on April 24, 2007, 05:19:43 AM
You don't seem to be able to separate NEW AGE from CLASSICAL. I guess so as you proposed us to come up with definitions I suppose you can not forge.
Then how do you think you can produce a good idea on how to save the classical music? And after reading your first, and subsequents posts; why should we take those ideas, if ever generated, as valid?
edit: I know perfectly well that Yanni and Enya do not fit the classical mold. I've posted this ealier, my first post and thread title was made facetiously, but the point is serious.
How could I produce a good idea that will "save" classical music? I haven't a clue. Luckly, other music geners, such as punk, crust, and other anarchist related music genres are alive and kicking more than ever despite the fact that ten years ago, punk was declared dead in much the same way classical music is thought to be dead by many people.
Don't get me wrong, I hate the music of "punk" and "anarcho". What I like is the culture and the approach though D.I.Y. with their being almost as many bands as their are groups of friends. Imagine if 1 out of every 5 classical enthusiasts actually created good music, and almost everyone who listend to music could play a classical instrument well. It would get friends involved, family involved, everyone. People would want to learn music theory, and could rearrange music to suite the different tastes of different groups of people whenever it was desired. The subtlies and power of classical music could be made accessable to many more people, and popular music wouldn't have to be limited to the lowest common denomitor.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is stupid. At least I'm trying something different, which is certianly what our most beloved classical composers tried to do. But why? Why shouldn't we be re-arragning music to suit our needs, or the needs of a particular audiance as someone who make speeches would do?
Quote from: Sungam on April 24, 2007, 06:24:36 AM
What I wonder is why this topic was moved to the diner, which is limited to "Discuss anything, music excepted."
Indeed. Let us move it back.
No, I don't think we will move it back, I have had several requests to move it to here and reading to the point I moved it, it seemed to me to be in the wrong place. I do agree that the issue is one of interest but when a new poster comes in, we cannot read into the posts to discern whether there is irony or an intent to be completely serious. When it says 'Music excepted' in the Diner, I guess that should read 'Classical Music Excepted'. Only Rob can sort that one out, so if anyone would care to drop him a PM, I should think he would act on it.
On the old board there were numerous threads on all kinds of music on the Diner, many of them perfectly serious discussions. It is not a second class citizen here. I also agree that I can see no reason not to draw philosophy or any ology into it if it makes for an interesting discussion.
Cheers,
Mike
Quote from: Sungam on April 24, 2007, 06:24:36 AM
Don't get me wrong, I hate the music of "punk" and "anarcho". What I like is the culture and the approach though D.I.Y. with their being almost as many bands as their are groups of friends. Imagine if 1 out of every 5 classical enthusiasts actually created good music, and almost everyone who listend to music could play a classical instrument well. It would get friends involved, family involved, everyone. People would want to learn music theory, and could rearrange music to suite the different tastes of different groups of people whenever it was desired. The subtlies and power of classical music could be made accessable to many more people, and popular music wouldn't have to be limited to the lowest common denomitor.
We have been through that period of time where a lot of families and groups were deeply involved with classical music. But like anything else from that time period it has ended. The times have changed, and almost everything we do today has to do with quick and easy access.
I am sure most of us here (with music excepted) follow the same ways of what people do with music. Access things that we need as easily as we can and move on.
The music styles you have mentioned (punk, anarcho, etc) are relatively easier to compose and perform. Anyone with a basic understanding of music and the verse-bridge-chorus mold, if they have the talent for it, can actually produce that music. That is not putting them down, don't get me wrong. It still needs dedication and hard work to succeed in, but the creation of the art form itself is much easier compared to the the complexity and educational background needed to achieve what has been (and is being) written in classical music. So it is no surprise that less and less people are concerning themselves with this art. Both from the artist's and the listener's point of view.
I guess what we can do is to do as much as we can to help the community and get engaged if we can, but we should never again expect a mass interest in classical music.
Thanks guys for the thoughtful replies. I do think this is an interesting question, we can move on from how it was posed surely and engage with our new friend. I know we have discussed this subject before, but that was then, this is now and we have new people throwing thoughts into the mix.
Mike
Quote from: 71 dB on April 24, 2007, 01:58:58 AM
Here in Finland the Classic Radio isn't that bad but Hollywood movie soundtracks are played sometimes as classical music.
It wasn't film soundtracks. What you heard was
THE COPLAND HOUR. ;D
Quote from: Sungam on April 23, 2007, 05:53:45 PM
Perhaps if the classical community would pay more attention to people with my opinion, their community orchestra's would be able to stay open and cd sales wouldn't be below that of esoteric metal genres.
CD sales are doing just fine. If not, new releases wouldn't be flowing at the current strong pace.
You seem to advocate the notion that classical music is doing poorly and needs to incorporate additional categories. I'll pass, since I'm quite pleased with its state.
Of course this whole discussion presupposes classical music at one time actually had a mass audience. I don't believe it ever did or it ever will. To enjoy classical music, it requires patience and knowledge. Those two luxurious items have always been scarce. The difference now is the distribution of wealth. Classical music was (and still is to most extents) the music of the relatively educated and wealthy. For most of the past 500 years, education and wealth were restricted to a high class of individuals who wandered through royalty and society. As an influential middle class has arisen throughout the modern world, unfortunately, education (at least musically) and patience have not come with it. The middle class now makes up such a majority, that popular music needn't concern itself with any other group to be successful monetarily. Now anyone with gifted albeit amateur talent can become a superstar. And it is these superstars, put up on a pedestal by the middle class, who get all the attention.
And so what? Classical music is still available to those who are willing to put forth the patience to listen. I would even venture to say the audience has grown, because recorded music is so easily available and cheap. Pop music, of course, has also grown thanks to recordings, perhaps even because of recordings. It has grown at such a faster rate than classical that it eclipses it, but should that matter? I don't think anyone would have predicted anything different. What I don't think is that pop music has grown at the expense of classical.
Classical music will do quite fine, regardless of the state of pop. It has always been there, and probably always will be, as it is today. The difference is that now it is harder to see, but so what? That's not a death.
Quote from: orbital on April 24, 2007, 07:00:16 AM
We have been through that period of time where a lot of families and groups were deeply involved with classical music. But like anything else from that time period it has ended. The times have changed, and almost everything we do today has to do with quick and easy access.
I guess what we can do is to do as much as we can to help the community and get engaged if we can, but we should never again expect a mass interest in classical music.
This is a truly sad state of affairs. I recall the comments of an older acquaintance from Germany. I saw him at a concert and he said "You Americans have such wonderful professional musicians, but where are your amateurs?" He recalled how in his youth in Germany, people played violins and cellos as a hobby and would gather in each others houses to play chamber music for recreation. He didn't see that happening in present day U.S.
The reason for this, of course, is that now people can get their music without having to learn how to play it. Recordings have made us lazy. And the media which disseminate recorded music have changed the nature of the music they disseminate, favoring short pieces of a consistent length (short), style and dynamic level (i.e. loud). The ease with which modern media dissiminates music to people, whether they want to hear it or not, has in turn altered the idea of what an "audience" is, and inflated the numbers necessary to acheive a "mass audience". Gone are the days when one could be like Ulysses Grant and "know only two tunes. One of them is Yankee Doodle and the other one isn't". Now everyone has no choice but to know hundreds of tunes. People who in older times would simply have nothing to do with music are now encouraged to use music as sonic wallpaper, to be ignored at their whim. They are, like it or not, part of the mass audience.
Fine posts, Brett & Mark.
Quote from: Manuel on April 24, 2007, 12:38:15 PM
It wasn't film soundtracks. What you heard was THE COPLAND HOUR. ;D
They hardly ever play Copland, the soudtracks are by John Williams, Ennio Morricone, James Horner, etc.
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on April 25, 2007, 06:46:45 AM
People who in older times would simply have nothing to do with music are now encouraged to use music as sonic wallpaper, to be ignored at their whim. They are, like it or not, part of the mass audience.
I've finally come to the conclusion that it's better to listen to music once in a month with your whole undivided attention than it is to listen to music all the time in the background. I listen with no regular frequency, sometimes once in a month, sometimes more than once in a day, just dictated by my mood. I find it much more satisfying that way. :)
I was kind of thinking that movies and tv shows reinforce the idea of music as sonic wallpaper. Dear forumites, where have you encountered the use of music being treated as background?
Quote from: DavidW on April 25, 2007, 09:41:59 AM
I've finally come to the conclusion that it's better to listen to music once in a month with your whole undivided attention than it is to listen to music all the time in the background. I listen with no regular frequency, sometimes once in a month, sometimes more than once in a day, just dictated by my mood. I find it much more satisfying that way. :)
I was kind of thinking that movies and tv shows reinforce the idea of music as sonic wallpaper. Dear forumites, where have you encountered the use of music being treated as background?
Court composers in the good ol' days cranked out "background music" quite a bit: a new string quartet did not necessarily make everyone in the room quiet.
Quote from: Cato on April 25, 2007, 10:27:35 AM
Court composers in the good ol' days cranked out "background music" quite a bit: a new string quartet did not necessarily make everyone in the room quiet.
I would like to imagine that Beethoven changed that attitude, at least towards his music, or was he known for writing sonic wallpaper from time to time as well?
Quote from: DavidW on April 25, 2007, 09:41:59 AM
I've finally come to the conclusion that it's better to listen to music once in a month with your whole undivided attention than it is to listen to music all the time in the background. I listen with no regular frequency, sometimes once in a month, sometimes more than once in a day, just dictated by my mood. I find it much more satisfying that way. :)
Indeed, David! I try to do nothing else when I listen, and I listen to less music as a result, but boy do I enjoy it more! For that matter, I try to do the same with eating, working and anything else. "Just listening" or "Just eating" or "Just _____" is the way to go IMO. This way life becomes one long meditation. :)
______________________________________________
Now as to the question about what makes something classical. Well, nothing is classical is it? Its just a word we use to label the (imaginary) box that we've placed Beethoven, Palestrina, Mozart, Ligeti into. Does anyone really thing that rock, pop and rap existed in 1600 or 1800? Back then it was just music. Did Beethoven refer to his work as "classical?" No, he just wrote music. It still is that way, Enya writes music. Ol Dirty Bastard writes music. I guess people get confused, so we've created these neat little categories to put composers in.
When a modern composer uses a snare drum, do I think that it suddenly becomes like what the Beatles did with a snare drum? No. When the Beatles uses a harpsichord in one of their songs, do I think that its like Rameau? No. Is one better than the other? No. It's all just people making sound with instruments. One persons music is another persons noise. Just ask your grandparents to listen to the new System of a Down. ;D Seriously though, when someone sits at the piano to play Ligeti, another could hear it as noise, another as music. They are both right in a relative sense, but in an absolute sense they are both wrong. It's neither music nor noise. It's just sound. It's just a person interacting with an instrument to create sound.
I've said before and I'll say it again; sound/music, music/noise, good/bad, Classical/Rock, Yanni/Enya. These are distinctions that only exist in our minds. Therefore they are not real. Things that aren't real don't mean anything to me. I don't see why they should.
Quote from: George on April 25, 2007, 12:30:13 PM
I've said before and I'll say it again; sound/music, music/noise, good/bad, Classical/Rock, Yanni/Enya. These are distinctions that only exist in our minds.
I tend to think Yanni and Enya actually exist out of my mind as separate things. ;D
Quote from: Manuel on April 25, 2007, 04:44:45 PM
I tend to think Yanni and Enya actually exist out of my mind as separate things. ;D
It sure is easier that way, isn't it? :)
Quote from: DavidW on April 25, 2007, 11:03:11 AM
I would like to imagine that Beethoven changed that attitude, at least towards his music, or was he known for writing sonic wallpaper from time to time as well?
Certainly you get the impression that Beethoven wanted your full attention. His attitude toward aristocrats was not always the politest!
Quote from: George on April 25, 2007, 12:30:13 PM
Indeed, David! I try to do nothing else when I listen, and I listen to less music as a result, but boy do I enjoy it more! For that matter, I try to do the same with eating, working and anything else. "Just listening" or "Just eating" or "Just _____" is the way to go IMO. This way life becomes one long meditation. :)
I read that even though people try to multitask everything in their daily lives, the human brain wasn't built that way. We were meant to just concentrate on one thing at a time, and when we try to do more than that, we do neither task well. :D
I'm totally with you, I do one thing at a time now, and really try to concentrate on it. I actually get more done, and it feels more rewarding.
That's cool, we're on the same wavelength here. :)
Quote from: Cato on April 25, 2007, 06:41:14 PM
Certainly you get the impression that Beethoven wanted your full attention. His attitude toward aristocrats was not always the politest!
Haha, Beethoven is like the true originator of the punk genre. ;)
I hadn't heard of Yanni until now - so went to watch him on YouTube - you should try it! :-)