I'm looking at:
Pappano/Santa Cecilia Orchestra
Gatti/Royal Philharmonic
Gergiev/Vienna Philharmonic
Any opinions on these or others I should consider?
I'd think Mravinsky is the obvious choice.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PK3F642PL._SS500_.jpg)
Have that set and love it. I was looking for a more recent set though. Sorry, I should have said.
Based on the few samples I've heard, Gatti would be my choice, though it's a very fleet, fast style. But I would also tack Jansons onto the list (though he's not so recent). :)
Just thought I'd add Abbado on DG 2-fer with the VPO and LSO. I know it's not the classic choice, but it's stood the test of time in my collection.
If you want a contemporary conductor why not give Mikhail Pletnev a try? He has recorded all of the symphonies on DG and they are my favorites. :)
Quote from: edward on January 23, 2008, 03:54:29 PM
I'd think Mravinsky is the obvious choice.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PK3F642PL._SS500_.jpg)
There is nothing that compares with it.
Quote from: hornteacher on January 23, 2008, 04:05:30 PM
Have that set and love it. I was looking for a more recent set though. Sorry, I should have said.
Since you already have Mravinsky and most of the other sets are simply less than what he did there, you should go for a complete contrast and treat yourself to this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41b-jC9IvSL._AA240_.jpg)
Bernstein's late recordings with the NYP.
Totally indulgent, totally over the top emotional, totally LB. In other words, this is so wrong on so many levels (especially the 6th), but there is so much musical personality and conviction behind it that it is a trip that is really worth taking.
You might also consider the Karajan recordings...., and the Muti on EMI is also a strong and powerful proposition. :)
First recommendation is of course Mravinsky, mentioned here. Gergiev is great in 5th. I have his 6th with Kirov Orchestra. It is better than with Wiener Philharmoniker according reviews.
Quote from: Brian on January 23, 2008, 04:28:48 PM
Based on the few samples I've heard, Gatti would be my choice, though it's a very fleet, fast style.
True about Gatti, though I don't like Gatti much, because of his no-contrast approach. I feel Tchaikovsky's music demands it. Anyway I would still looked for him.
Jansons is good choice, but
why is he softening dynamics in some passages in symphonies and going to crescendo? I don't like it.
weird, haven't seen Iago burst in here and recommend a Monteux/Boston Symphony set.
Ferenc Fricsay also recorded Tchaik 4,5 and 6. Loved his 5th, but the rest seems very difficult to find...
Quote from: MISHUGINA on January 24, 2008, 07:27:35 AM
weird, haven't seen Iago burst in here and recommend a Monteux/Boston Symphony set.
Well, in his absence, I'll put in a good word for it. I have the 4 and 5 by Monteux on vinyl (don't recall if I have the 6th and can say nothing about that), and find them an interesting, beautiful and very different take than the Mravinsky interps.
If you want REAL different, find Mengelberg's ancient ones--in fact, Mengie did the 4th and 5th both in the late 1920s AND the late 1930s, and comparing them to each other is rather fascinating. I don't recall him doing more than one recording of the 6th, however.
Of course, NONE of my comments and few of the ones above speak to your original "maybe" list, hornteacher. Sorry.
Cheers,
Dirk
Quote from: Harry on January 23, 2008, 11:52:38 PM
You might also consider the Karajan recordings...., and the Muti on EMI is also a strong and powerful proposition. :)
Yes I will second Harry's recommendation of the Karajan recordings. There are so many on the market, you could just buy 4,5, and 6 as a set or buy a boxset of the complete cycle 1-6. The choice is, and as always, yours
hornteacher :).
marvin
The question here is, which Karajan recordings?
I quite like Karajan's mid 70s DG 4-6, though admittedly haven't done comparative listening of his 7 official Pathetiques. I'd probably be interested in sampling his digital Wiena recordings at some point but my short time Tchaikovsky plans include getting to know better Pique Dame and going on a Winter Dreams binge.
You want scintillating?
Karajan/BPO 1971, newly remastered for EMI Gemini, or the 1973 DVD with the same forces.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HdzdDImAL._SS500_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41wFiv4qU8L._SS500_.jpg)
I actually prefer Karajan's late recordings of 4-6 with the WP. Like many of the recordings he made in his last years, these have a spontaneity and even a certain degree of roughness - or maybe not roughness, but simply less focus on polishing the sound and filing off corners -, elements which were often present in his concerts, but not in many of the studio recordings made in the 60s and especially 70s. Plus the sound of the recordings DG made in Vienna then is much better than the contemporary ones they made in Berlin and most of what they did there in the 70s.
Quote from: M forever on January 24, 2008, 04:52:35 PM
I actually prefer Karajan's late recordings of 4-6 with the WP. Like many of the recordings he made in his last years, these have a spontaneity and even a certain degree of roughness - or maybe not roughness, but simply less focus on polishing the sound and filing off corners -, elements which were often present in his concerts, but not in many of the studio recordings made in the 60s and especially 70s. Plus the sound of the recordings DG made in Vienna then is much better than the contemporary ones they made in Berlin and most of what they did there in the 70s.
M, any comments on the release of the final flourish? It's from the 1973 DVD.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWa7_MWr7V0
So clean, precise, "together"...to me that final chord alone makes the whole DVD set worth buying, since I have never heard anything similar in any performance that even comes close to this one, except for some other recordings made by the same team. (1988 Tch PC #1 with Kissin, anyone?)
Quote from: Nande ya nen? on January 24, 2008, 04:59:03 PM
M, any comments on the release of the final flourish? It's from the 1973 DVD.
This DVD is out of print! I checked three sources, DG does not even list it, only the ones from the Berliners, nothing from Vienna! :'(
Brian linked to a location recently where those films from the 70s can be downloaded.
Quote from: M forever on January 24, 2008, 06:43:24 PM
Brian linked to a location recently where those films from the 70s can be downloaded.
Is this the performance (http://www.stage6.com/user/yoshimaninov/video/1491078/TCHKVSKY-SMPHNY-N5) of which you speak? The link leads to No 5, but I see the Fourth and Sixth under the "Similar Videos" tab to the right.
In my collection of LVDs are No. 4, 5, and 6 performed with the Wiener Philharmonikers but it lists the 4th as performed and recorded September 1984. Would there be a great difference?
For you, probably not. It's all nice videos of nice people playing nice music. For people who notice such differences:
Quote from: M forever on January 24, 2008, 04:52:35 PM
I actually prefer Karajan's late recordings of 4-6 with the WP. Like many of the recordings he made in his last years, these have a spontaneity and even a certain degree of roughness - or maybe not roughness, but simply less focus on polishing the sound and filing off corners -, elements which were often present in his concerts, but not in many of the studio recordings made in the 60s and especially 70s. Plus the sound of the recordings DG made in Vienna then is much better than the contemporary ones they made in Berlin and most of what they did there in the 70s.
Quote from: Brian on January 24, 2008, 07:01:15 PM
Is this the performance (http://www.stage6.com/user/yoshimaninov/video/1491078/TCHKVSKY-SMPHNY-N5) of which you speak? The link leads to No 5, but I see the Fourth and Sixth under the "Similar Videos" tab to the right.
Yes, this is what I spoke of. This was obviously filmed in Berlin in the 70s. When exactly I don't know. The database on karajan.org has been revamped, and now what used to be an excellent research tool for information about HvK's concerts, films, and recordings simply totally sucks and is completely useless. Just in time for the "Karajan year". I used the contact form there to insult them but also to ask (nicely) for the old database to be restored the way it was.
Quote from: dirkronk on January 24, 2008, 08:29:09 AM
Well, in his absence, I'll put in a good word for it. I have the 4 and 5 by Monteux on vinyl (don't recall if I have the 6th and can say nothing about that), and find them an interesting, beautiful and very different take than the Mravinsky interps. Dirk
I have the big 15-CD RCA Monteux retrospective box. It contains Vol 14, which is a 2 CD subset of the Tchaikovsky Syms 4, 5, & 6 with the BSO. It and the 2 CD set, which used to be generally available separately, seem now to have been deleted from the catalog. However, I went to Google Shopping, and found it is still available from Tower for $19.24. http://www.tower.com/details/details.cfm?wapi=106544941
I urge you to grab it, even though its older than the Mravinsky. While its very exciting, the Mravinsky seems to me far too frenetic to satisfy over the long haul. Day in and day out, Monteux's nuanced performance satisfies the soul. Not lacking for drama, he still lets the music breathe. Mravinsky plays at a wind sprint pace; Monteux is a well paced, long distance runner. You'll love it.
Quote from: MISHUGINA on January 24, 2008, 07:27:35 AM
weird, haven't seen Iago burst in here and recommend a Monteux/Boston Symphony set.
Ferenc Fricsay also recorded Tchaik 4,5 and 6. Loved his 5th, but the rest seems very difficult to find...
All at amazon on this page (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_m/105-4255204-1526843?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=fricsay+Tchaikovsky&x=18&y=23)
I have both the 6ths mentioned plus 4 and 5 and highly recommend them.
A lot of Tchaikovsky 4, 5, and 6 to choose from. I went through my LVDs and played this afternoon a No. 4, not mentioned yet. It is from the series of six performances in Die Alte Oper Frankfurt, now available in DVD.
Vladimir Fedoseyev is conducting The Moscow Radio Symphony Orchestra in a thrilling performance with a true Russian flair. - Hush, I hear you, you in the back with your bass fiddle, and remember well your admonition of the mistaken believe that same nationality of conductor, orchestra and composer accomplish better results! - Fedoseyev is a more athletic and visually enthusiastic conductor than von Karajan - Karajan's baton has never somersaulted through the air into the viola section as Fedoseyev's does! - but the Allegro con fuoco shakes the rafters of the Alte Oper, and so does the applause of the audience.
Check out this one, as well as the rest of the series!
More on the DVD here:
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=176228&album_group=2
Quote from: uffeviking on January 26, 2008, 02:42:49 PM
More on the DVD here:
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=176228&album_group=2
That looks like a very interesting set. One hopes that they will box up the 6 DVD's into a single unit some day, and they can be had for a reasonable price. :)
8)
----------------
Now playing:
Overtures & Concertos - Georg Philipp Telemann: Frans Bruggen - Franz Vester - Paul doctor - Concerto in G for Viola 3rd mvmt
Quote from: M forever on January 23, 2008, 11:42:12 PM
Since you already have Mravinsky and most of the other sets are simply less than what he did there, you should go for a complete contrast and treat yourself to this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41b-jC9IvSL._AA240_.jpg)
Bernstein's late recordings with the NYP.
Totally indulgent, totally over the top emotional, totally LB. In other words, this is so wrong on so many levels (especially the 6th), but there is so much musical personality and conviction behind it that it is a trip that is really worth taking.
When I read the title of this thread, my choices came to me instantaneously. But you already have Mravinsky and M has said what I was going to say about Bernstein. So, consider this one more vote for late Lenny....and be prepared to be blown away by that "Mahlerian" finale in the Sixth. Utterly unique.
Sarge
Quote from: MISHUGINA on January 24, 2008, 07:27:35 AM
weird, haven't seen Iago burst in here and recommend a Monteux/Boston Symphony set.
..
That Monteux set needs no recommendation. Tschaikovsky, performed by a great orchestra and great conductor, recorded in one of the great recording venues in the world (Sym Hall in Boston) certainly MUST be too good to be considered by the "aficionados" on this forum. Anybody that doesn't already know about it is beyond redemption anyway. In fact it's too good and both musically correct and satisfying to be coveted by the great many a**holes on this forum.
No argument with that statement! Why do you think I recommended The Moscow Symphony Orchestra conducted by Vladimir Fedoseyev performing in the Frankfurt Alte Oper? Those old opera houses have great acoustics; Russian musicians know how to play the works of their composers, have it in their genes; and Fedoseyev is presently one of their best! :)
Quote from: Iago on January 26, 2008, 05:18:46 PM
That Monteux set needs no recommendation. Tschaikovsky, performed by a great orchestra and great conductor, recorded in one of the great recording venues in the world (Sym Hall in Boston) certainly MUST be too good to be considered by the "aficionados" on this forum. Anybody that doesn't already know about it is beyond redemption anyway. In fact it's too good and both musically correct and satisfying to be coveted by the great many a**holes on this forum.
Monteux is probably the king of creating a line throughout a piece of music that extends from the 1st second to the last. Never breathless, always logic, sometimes a bit over the top and not exactly written on the score, but never changing one single note, which was what a lot of big conductors did during that era. Anyone whom has listened to his Franck D minor or Elgar Enigma would know exactly what i am talking about. Magical conducting.
Howard
Quote from: uffeviking on January 26, 2008, 05:29:10 PM
No argument with that statement! Why do you think I recommended The Moscow Symphony Orchestra conducted by Vladimir Fedoseyev performing in the Frankfurt Alte Oper?
Apparently because you are blind and deaf:
Quote from: uffeviking on January 26, 2008, 05:29:10 PM
Those old opera houses have great acoustics; Russian musicians know how to play the works of their composers, have it in their genes; and Fedoseyev is presently one of their best! :)
The Alte Oper in Frankfurt is only an old opera house on the outside. It was nearly completely destroyed in WWII, like most old halls and theaters in Germany. Only the outer walls remained standing, but heavily damaged, too. The interior was completely rebuilt in the 70s. That should be pretty obvious in the video. The acoustics aren't that great, definitely on the dry and boxy side. So no "old opera house with great acoustics" there. It's not even an opera house anymore. It is a concert hall now. That you can't see and hear that does not really qualify you as someone whose recommendation we can trust. You obviously imagine things based on false informations and preconceptions.
The idea that musical knowledge is in the genes is bizarre and verges on the racist. Cultural environment and acquisition through immersion in it are what counts. Fedoseyev and his musicians definitely have that, but not because it is in their genes. Fedoseyev is a rather one-dimensional conductor though. His recordings of these symphonies on Melodiya are basically like Mravinsky in style but not nearly as good and nuanced - but they appear " spectacular" because of the glaringly bright recordings by Radio Moscow. It might still be interesting to watch this video, but not for the reasons you gave - these are mostly imagined.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 26, 2008, 03:06:31 PM
When I read the title of this thread, my choices came to me instantaneously. But you already have Mravinsky and M has said what I was going to say about Bernstein. So, consider this one more vote for late Lenny....and be prepared to be blown away by that "Mahlerian" finale in the Sixth. Utterly unique.
Sarge
That was my line of thinking, too. When people ask for recommendations and tell us what they already know, like hornteacher did here, nobody thinks about what might be most interesting, stimulating and contrasting for the poster. Everybody just blablas about whatever recordings they happen to like or know. I am pretty sure some of the "recommendations" here are given by people who maybe only know 2 or 3 versions of these symphonies. There are many, many, many good and still quite a few very good performances of these symphonies available. When making a recommendation, one shouldn't just think of one's own preferences. One should take into account what might be good and interesting for the poster who asks for advice to listen to at this particular time, based on what he already knows and doesn't know.
Quote from: M forever on January 26, 2008, 11:17:08 PM
It's not even an opera house anymore. It is a concert hall now. .
Pssst, Michael:
Alte Oper is the official name of the building! ;)
Psssst, uffeviking: I know that. I have played there several times.
It still isn't an "old opera house with great acoustics" in anything but name and the outside skin. That you can't see in the video that it is a concert hall now - it is not one of those halls where you have a stage opening and the orchestra sits inside a shell, like in the Semperoper when they play concerts, it has no theatrical stage anymore, just an orcheatra platform - and that it was very obviously (re)built fairly recently really completely discredits you as someone who we can listen to for a recommendation. You apparently read "Alte Oper" and think it must be an old opera house so it must have great acoustics, and you read Russian names, so you think they must have the music "in their genes", but in reality, you don't see or hear any of these things. Which is OK, as long as you have fun and enjoy the nice music and the nice people in the videos, but you really shouldn't make recommendations based on nothing but silly cliches. If it was at least based on what you really hear or see, then it could be an interesting personal view. But you see a modern concert hall and think it is an old opera house because of the name of the building, that really means you have no clue what you are talking about. BTW, the reason it is called " Alte" Oper is that they built another opera house to replace the destroyed one which was then rebuilt as a concert hall.
Oh my dear M forever, I am so grateful to have you here at GMG to correct my ignorance while expressing my opinions of classical music performances and performers. I should not be so bold and talk about my personal feelings when hearing classical music in the presence of you, the professional musician, one who has displayed his artistry in many European and American music venues; I, the person with only a grade school education in playing the recorder but a person who gets moved to tears or is amused by classical music performances. - Come to think of it, I recall playing on my recorder Handel's Largo during graduation exercises to enthusiastic applause of the audience. Does that count? - ???
I was assured of my correct outlook on classical music by a longtime friend, a professional conductor, when I asked him how he manages to keep track of all the notes in Stravinsky's Le Sacre du Printemps and his reply: "Just sit back and enjoy the music I play for you, I'll take care of the mechanics. ;)
Are you on some kind of medication? You can listen to/watch whatever and enjoy whatever you like, and anybody here can share their opinions and impressions.
What I am saying is that if you watch a video which was extremely obviously shot in a modern concert hall but you imagine what you are seeing is a performance in an "old opera house" because that venue carries that name for historical reasons, then that does not reflect very well on your powers of perception. You also imagined that the acoustics must be great because, it is, after all, "an old opera house", but you are wrong there, too, the Alte Oper is acoustically fairly problematical, like way too many concert halls built in that period.
That just means that you don't see and hear too well and don't really understand what you are seeing and hearing. Which is OK, as long as you "sit back and enjoy", but you can't expect to be taken seriously in a discussion then. That has nothing to do with whether you played the recorder or not (I did, too, when I was 6 or 7 or so) and that has nothing to do with what I did or didn't so musically do either. So, please go ahead, continue to simmer in the juice of your own ignorance, and continue to ignore if you are factually wrong about things you imagine to hear or see, like a wonderful old opera house which is actually a mediocre modern concert hall. Once, again, your superficial knowledge of German and German culture has played a trick on you. Looks like that stuff isn't "in the genes" after all. Just be a little more self-critical, then your opinions can become more interesting and informative to read for others.
Quote from: M forever on January 27, 2008, 10:45:05 AM
Are you on some kind of medication? You can listen to/watch whatever and enjoy whatever you like, and anybody here can share their opinions and impressions.
What I am saying is that if you watch a video which was extremely obviously shot in a modern concert hall but you imagine what you are seeing is a performance in an "old opera house" because that venue carries that name for historical reasons, then that does not reflect very well on your powers of perception. You also imagined that the acoustics must be great because, it is, after all, "an old opera house", but you are wrong there, too, the Alte Oper is acoustically fairly problematical, like way too many concert halls built in that period.
That just means that you don't see and hear too well and don't really understand what you are seeing and hearing. Which is OK, as long as you "sit back and enjoy", but you can't expect to be taken seriously in a discussion then. That has nothing to do with whether you played the recorder or not (I did, too, when I was 6 or 7 or so) and that has nothing to do with what I did or didn't so musically do either. So, please go ahead, continue to simmer in the juice of your own ignorance, and continue to ignore if you are factually wrong about things you imagine to hear or see, like a wonderful old opera house which is actually a mediocre modern concert hall. Once, again, your superficial knowledge of German and German culture has played a trick on you. Looks like that stuff isn't "in the genes" after all. Just be a little more self-critical, then your opinions can become more interesting and informative to read for others.
My opnion and impression on you is that you are a chocolate chip cookie !!!!!!!!!! ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D :P :P
(http://www.sallys-place.com/food/columns/zonis/Best_Cookie-20.jpg)
Hey, it's called freedom of expression.
Nande ya nen:
:-*
It ain't for the faint of heart but Mravinsky on DG...electrifying!
Kondrashin in Japan for 6. No other finale comes close to this one for vehemence and intensity.
Based on hornteacher's original post, looking for a newish digital version - go for Gatti! I recently got all three from eMusic and can't stop listening. Superb accounts, especially of the Capriccio Italien; if you'd like to hear a ten-minute sample of the Symphony No 5, look for my recent "Name That Orchestra" thread and listen to clip #3. A terrific account of the Tchaikovsky, very different to be sure, but very well thought-out and incredibly well-played.
Assuming you're asking for a modern recording, I can't think of anything more "central" to recommend than either of the Karajan/BPO DG sets of the last three symphonies (from the 60's and the 70's, respectively). The EMI one mentioned above has bad sound (IMO). :(
If you enjoy a little "lilt" from the orchestra and some extra "spaciousness" of performance, but can tolerate slightly strange sound, I can also recommend his (Karajan's) late recordings with the Vienna Philharmonic, though they're not in one set.
And I also second Bernstein. But definitely, absolutely and categorically not as a "central" recommendation. Only if you appreciate his style. ;)
Apart from those, the "usual suspects" (Pletnev, Mutti, also Jansons) are all game, as well. Not in the same scale as the above, for modern(-ish) recordings of Tchaikovsky's last three symphonies; but very good indeed, in my view. :)
Edit: Let me clarify that it's the second DG Karajan/BPO set that would qualify as "modern" - the earlier one is "modernish". :P
Quote from: Renfield on March 31, 2008, 09:21:28 AM
Assuming you're asking for a modern recording, I can't think of anything more "central" to recommend than either of the Karajan/BPO DG sets of the last three symphonies (from the 60's and the 70's, respectively). The EMI one mentioned above has bad sound (IMO). :(
If you enjoy a little "lilt" from the orchestra and some extra "spaciousness" of performance, but can tolerate slightly strange sound, I can also recommend his (Karajan's) late recordings with the Vienna Philharmonic, though they're not in one set.
And I also second Bernstein. But definitely, absolutely and categorically not as a "central" recommendation. Only if you appreciate his style. ;)
Apart from those, the "usual suspects" (Pletnev, Mutti, also Jansons) are all game, as well. Not in the same scale as the above, for modern(-ish) recordings of Tchaikovsky's last three symphonies; but very good indeed, in my view. :)
Edit: Let me clarify that it's the second DG Karajan/BPO set that would qualify as "modern" - the earlier one is "modernish". :P
I find Karajan's late DG recordings with the VPO to be reverberant and spacious...more so than his earlier stuff , like the '62 LvB cycle for example.
Quote from: Perfect FIFTH on April 01, 2008, 09:21:05 PM
I find Karajan's late DG recordings with the VPO to be reverberant and spacious...more so than his earlier stuff , like the '62 LvB cycle for example.
Indeed, so do I. The "strangeness" of the recording I mention has more to do with the general early(ish) "digitalness" of the sound.
All with a pinch of salt, of course: recorded sound quality can be a very relative thing. :)
Quote from: Renfield on April 01, 2008, 09:44:51 PM
Indeed, so do I. The "strangeness" of the recording I mention has more to do with the general early(ish) "digitalness" of the sound.
All with a pinch of salt, of course: recorded sound quality can be a very relative thing. :)
It has to do with the mike placement, not "digitalness".
Quote from: DavidW on April 02, 2008, 04:58:04 AM
It has to do with the mike placement, not "digitalness".
Obviously, such a thing as "digitalness" doesn't actually exist. I just used it as a placeholder for "early use of a new technique" - unless it's a coincidence that almost all of Karajan's digital recordings bar the very last ones seem to have a strange sound to them.
But of course, the reason itself that I used a placeholder-term like "digitalness" is that I'm no audio engineer, I can only gauge if I like the end-result, with any sort of accuracy. If it was the microphone placement, so be it. :)
I would like to hear a clip or two, but not lower than 320kbps, please (if you do mp3, flac would be preferred but is not absolutely necessary).
For the enjoyment of the forum and the perusal of those looking for a CD recommendation, here is a ten-minute clip (http://www.mediafire.com/?zjm2yin9mtn) from the Daniele Gatti recording of Tchaikovsky's Fifth Symphony. The clip covers portions of the first and second movements, and was used in my Name That Orchestra competition last month (so some of you have already heard it). 320kbps (to my knowledge) :)
From a quick comparison of the three clips: The sonics on the Gatti are far better than the older recordings -- clearer, more space, complete absence of hiss or any other background noise, better orchestral balances, etc.
I cannot judge the performances, I don't have both sets.
There is a review I read some time ago about the Gatti Tchaik 5th, which states that Gatti has followed (or attempted to follow) the score's original metronome markings which is not the case in any other (previous) recordings. As I'm not an expert in this field, I leave it for the true cognoscenti to parse this out. Here's a link to the review by Mark Jordan (http://www.highfidelityreview.com/reviews/review.asp?reviewnumber=13569094).
Quote from: Gustav on April 03, 2008, 02:05:14 PM
wouldn't that be a little unfair? judging that the dorati recordings were made in 1965? Plus, i didn't upload these clips so you can go compare them with Gatti, I uploaded them so you all judge the merits of this recording, you know, the sound (taking in account the age), and the interpretation.
I wasn't trying to be fair or unfair. I merely made a comparison on the basis of sound quality alone because the sound quality of the Mercury recordings was being touted for it's excellence. I listened to the recordings and I didn't find that the older sound really comes up to the standard of modern recordings. If one is going to be interested in these recordings, one should understand that they are antique technology that may not hold up to comparison with more modern recordings. They therefore should be judged more on the merits of the performances. I am not stating an opinion on the performances because I don't own the recordings and cannot give them the attention needed to make a judgment.
Quotewho cares? Since when is the merits of a performance is so heavily depended upon "original tempo"?
With respect to the review I cited: The review is not something that I feel competent to discuss in depth. I had hoped that those more knowledgeable would be able to discuss this dispassionately. However, discussion of composer's tempo markings and how conductors have used (or not used them) is a very pertinent subject for discussion. Only look at how Beethoven performance has changed with the re-examination of the composer's markings! I don't doubt that Tchaikovsky is a composer whose works will also benefit in performance from more careful examination of his tempo markings as well.
Quoteoh, btw, so far only about 3-5 people have downloaded the clips, i will host them up there until friday, which is tomorrow, so download them while you can, they won't be there after tomorrow!
Watch out, more people may get the opportunity to compare the sound quality of those recordings to others. 8)
Quote from: Gustav on April 02, 2008, 09:36:32 AM
(http://jazzymas.com/oscommerce/images/tchaikovsky.p.i.0028947562610.jpg)
The above mentioned recordings, Karajan's for example, pales in comparison with this one, In terms of THE SOUND, i have yet encountered anything better than Dorati/LSO, but, Mercury Living Presence always had wonderful sound, so, i might upload a clip here or two, to show you guys what i am talking about.
Maybe you would like to reconstruct that run-on sentence? ;)
Quote from: BorisG on April 03, 2008, 03:47:53 PM
Maybe you would like to reconstruct that run-on sentence? ;)
maybe i would also want to write it in Chinese (my first language), but I don't think you know how to read it. :)
I apologize for the bad grammar, and punctuation, etc... i am always in a hurry, because i don't have a ton of time in my hands (unlike some of you). I have school, work, sports, etc.... after all that, it seems rather pointless to have perfect grammar on an internet forum populated by people around the world.
but, thank you for pointing out my mistakes though, even though this thread has nothing to do with that, and being irrelevant does reveal the extend of your limited intelligence. Do you have an opinion over the recordings? Anything interesting to say? What did you think of the clips? it took me awhile to upload these clips(they are 320 kbps, i was considering uploading them in APE, but knowing that most of you are probably technology-senile, and probably don't know how to play it, so i opted for mp3 instead) and i get no thanks, but instead, comments like these... :P
clips are off, if anyone is interested, PM me, otherwise they are gone.
good day!
Mravinsky on DGG is my favourite set.
Quote from: Gustav on April 03, 2008, 04:01:14 PM
maybe i would also want to write it in Chinese (my first language), but I don't think you know how to read it. :)
I apologize for the bad grammar, and punctuation, etc... i am always in a hurry, because i don't have a ton of time in my hands (unlike some of you). I have school, work, sports, etc.... after all that, it seems rather pointless to have perfect grammar on an internet forum populated by people around the world.
but, thank you for pointing out my mistakes though, even though this thread has nothing to do with that, and being irrelevant does reveal the extend of your limited intelligence. Do you have an opinion over the recordings? Anything interesting to say? What did you think of the clips? it took me awhile to upload these clips(they are 320 kbps, i was considering uploading them in APE, but knowing that most of you are probably technology-senile, and probably don't know how to play it, so i opted for mp3 instead) and i get no thanks, but instead, comments like these... :P
clips are off, if anyone is interested, PM me, otherwise they are gone.
good day!
We all make mistakes, no apologies necessary, except maybe for Bunny. I thought you treated her responses harshly, considering the sound claim you made.
And, sir, you would not understand my Russian. :D
I must confess there was some flippancy in my remark about your run-on sentence (poor punctuation), because I have grown weary of Mercury Living Presence marketing for sound. The claims made by the label, and the claims made by its listeners are no longer applicable.
I did not need your clips to tell me what I already knew. From my past ownership of these Tchaikovsky recordings, I quickly realized they were not seriously competitive anymore. I did not care for most of the interpretation, but that is subjective. Sound was much more of an issue.
Good day to you. Happy listening.
Quote from: BorisG on April 04, 2008, 10:40:43 AM
We all make mistakes, no apologies necessary, except maybe for Bunny. I thought you treated her responses harshly, considering the sound claim you made.
You call that harsh? the world I have experienced is at least 1000 times harsher than that, you can't protect her forever.
Quote from: BorisG on April 04, 2008, 10:40:43 AM
And, sir, you would not understand my Russian. :D
I don't, but, I wouldn't think any lower of you or criticize little mistakes you have made here or there. Being irrelevant, and off-topic is not a sign of maturity.
Quote from: BorisG on April 04, 2008, 10:40:43 AM
I must confess there was some flippancy in my remark about your run-on sentence (poor punctuation), because I have grown weary of Mercury Living Presence marketing for sound. The claims made by the label, and the claims made by its listeners are no longer applicable.
You might have grown weary of it, but others have just discovered it.... you see, the world is not only about you, I uploaded the clips for EVERYBODY (that includes you btw). What you have grown weary of something is your business. But, don't deprive others from at least have a chance of hearing it. Again, it's not about you, you are not that special btw (nobody is, i might add), okay? are we clear now?
Quote from: BorisG on April 04, 2008, 10:40:43 AM
I did not need your clips to tell me what I already knew. From my past ownership of these recordings, I quickly realized they were not seriously competitive anymore. I did not care for most of the interpretation, but that is subjective. Sound was much more of an issue.
Again, that's your opinion, and you are entitled to express them, but instead of doing the logical and mature thing of expressing your opinion in the first place. You resorted to a sophomoric response, by bringing up something completely off-topic. If you had said this in the beginning, i might have reserved some tiny respect for your arguments. But, too late, just like you do not care about Mercury Living Presence, I don't really care about what you think either.
So, Happy listening!
Did Boris G just write off a WHOLE LABEL??? :o
Quote from: BorisG on April 04, 2008, 10:40:43 AMI have grown weary of Mercury Living Presence marketing for sound. The claims made by the label, and the claims made by its listeners are no longer applicable.
I would say that, in this day and age, the MLP sound is "eccentric but exciting". I only have their Suppe/Auber CD, but it seems to me that, although their acoustics in no way rival those we can enjoy today, they are very exciting to listen to! And, of course, Dorati, Paray and others turned in some fabulous performances for them.
Quote from: Brian on April 04, 2008, 11:09:32 AM
I would say that, in this day and age, the MLP sound is "eccentric but exciting". I only have their Suppe/Auber CD, but it seems to me that, although their acoustics in no way rival those we can enjoy today, they are very exciting to listen to! And, of course, Dorati, Paray and others turned in some fabulous performances for them.
Yes, they sound a bit arid in my experience but much of the music is very desirable.
Quote from: MN Dave on April 04, 2008, 11:00:16 AM
Did Boris G just write off a WHOLE LABEL??? :o
No, just the OP. ;)
Quote from: Gustav on April 04, 2008, 10:59:46 AM
Baby Gustav crying.
I am sorry now that I was civil to you. You are only a crybaby with little listening experience.
Quote from: BorisG on April 04, 2008, 11:32:50 AM
I am sorry now that I was civil to you. You are only a crybaby with little listening experience.
Personal attacks now? You have sunk even lower than i had imagined, but that's okay. I don't want to pay that much attention to the silly editing job you did there. But, in the real world, you might get arrest by doing that you know. It's called "slander", accusing someone of saying something that he didn't. But, judging from the way you respond to posts in general, i doubt Police will go after you anyways, since up here, we give children one more chance to grow up, and learn from their mistakes.
Quote from: Gustav on April 04, 2008, 10:59:46 AM
You call that harsh? the world I have experienced is at least 1000 times harsher than that, you can't protect her forever.
BorisG,
Thankfully, I don't need protection from people living on the other side of the globe, but I always appreciate kindness. :-*
Gustav,
I did wonder at the excessive hostility of your response, but realized that you interpreted my opinion of the sound quality of the clips as a personal attack which it was not meant to be. When, however, you make such broad and sweeping judgments as,
"In terms of THE SOUND, i have yet encountered anything better than Dorati/LSO, but, Mercury Living Presence always had wonderful sound, so, i might upload a clip here or two, to show you guys what i am talking about"; you should expect someone will actually listen and make comparisons.
Quote from: Gustav on April 04, 2008, 01:52:06 PM
Personal attacks now? You have sunk even lower than i had imagined, but that's okay. I don't want to pay that much attention to the silly editing job you did there. But, in the real world, you might get arrest by doing that you know. It's called "slander", accusing someone of saying something that he didn't. But, judging from the way you respond to posts in general, i doubt Police will go after you anyways, since up here, we give children one more chance to grow up, and learn from their mistakes.
Congratulations, you are now a
(http://www.catholichomeandgarden.com/Christmas/fruitcake.jpg)
Quote from: BorisG on April 04, 2008, 04:33:38 PM
Congratulations, you are now a
(http://www.catholichomeandgarden.com/Christmas/fruitcake.jpg)
That looks horrible.
Quote from: Don on April 04, 2008, 04:53:47 PM
That looks horrible.
;D I do sometimes wonder about this recordings forum. The other forums seem to attract less fruit & nuts. :o
Quote from: BorisG on April 04, 2008, 04:59:34 PM
;D I do sometimes wonder about this recordings forum. The other forums seem to attract less fruit & nuts. :o
Clearly you've never been to the Diner.
Quote from: BorisG on April 04, 2008, 04:33:38 PM
Congratulations, you are now a
(http://www.catholichomeandgarden.com/Christmas/fruitcake.jpg)
fruitcake? forgot how to spell?
Quote from: Bunny on April 04, 2008, 02:20:02 PM
I did wonder at the excessive hostility of your response, but realized that you interpreted my opinion of the sound quality of the clips as a personal attack which it was not meant to be. When, however, you make such broad and sweeping judgments as, "In terms of THE SOUND, i have yet encountered anything better than Dorati/LSO, but, Mercury Living Presence always had wonderful sound, so, i might upload a clip here or two, to show you guys what i am talking about"; you should expect someone will actually listen and make comparisons.
Nope, you completely missed it, I did not take your comment as a personal attack, a personal attack usually contain certain words and phrases that are quite easily recognizable. You did not attack me, what you did was commenting on sound quality between 2 vastly different recordings, you compared Gatti to Dorati. Which i thought was unfair, and silly, since it doesn't take a genius to figure out that recordings nowadays sound better than they used to be. So, what you said didn't contribute anything to the discussion.
Quote from: BorisG on April 04, 2008, 04:59:34 PM
;D I do sometimes wonder about this recordings forum. The other forums seem to attract less fruit & nuts. :o
You participate in other forums as well? What other idiotic thing do you do there? Picking other people's spelling mistakes and upload silly pictures?
Quote from: Gustav on April 04, 2008, 11:15:15 PM
Nope, you completely missed it, I did not take your comment as a personal attack, a personal attack usually contain certain words and phrases that are quite easily recognizable. You did not attack me, what you did was commenting on sound quality between 2 vastly different recordings, you compared Gatti to Dorati. Which i thought was unfair, and silly, since it doesn't take a genius to figure out that recordings nowadays sound better than they used to be. So, what you said didn't contribute anything to the discussion.
I don't agree. There are plenty of recordings "nowadays" that I think don't sound as good as some recordings from a few decades ago. It has to do with the current love of engineers for a heavy dose of reverberation and bright sound that can result in a somewhat muddy soundstage with inadequate detail.
Quote from: Gustav on April 04, 2008, 11:15:15 PM
Nope, you completely missed it, I did not take your comment as a personal attack, a personal attack usually contain certain words and phrases that are quite easily recognizable. You did not attack me, what you did was commenting on sound quality between 2 vastly different recordings, you compared Gatti to Dorati. Which i thought was unfair, and silly, since it doesn't take a genius to figure out that recordings nowadays sound better than they used to be. So, what you said didn't contribute anything to the discussion.
You brought up the sound quality as a selling point for the Dorati. If you didn't believe that the sound quality of the Dorati recording was as good as that of the modern recordings, then why would you have so clearly stated that you have heard nothing with better sound? And worse, why do you still complain when a quick listen can demonstrate that the sound quality of the recording is dated, and while quite acceptable, is nothing extraordinary by modern standards?
If you didn't feel attacked by me, then why should you have reacted to my post with such hostility and insult? I have not "missed your point." You belabor that point so heavily that only a moron could miss it; there is no subtlety about your postings. I merely have stated that
in my opinion the sound quality should not be a factor influencing any decision whether to purchase or not purchase the Dorati recordings because the sound quality is not stellar. You resent that I have stated this opinion, and in fact have said that I should have not have posted that opinion, and that I misused the clips by comparing them (so presumptuous of me :P). Well grow up! If you post clips on the internet, you must expect that people will listen to them, and compare them to others that they have available. The Dorati recordings are fine, but nothing I've heard has convinced me that I need them when I already have the Mravinsky. I love the Mravinsky, and would have loved to find something in a similar style with better sound quality. That is not the case with the Dorati.
I am still interested in the Gatti recordings; what I have read has piqued my curiosity. I am still hopeful that someone familiar with them with some expertise will be able to comment about them so that I can decide whether to purchase at least one of them.
Quote from: Don on April 04, 2008, 11:52:23 PM
I don't agree. There are plenty of recordings "nowadays" that I think don't sound as good as some recordings from a few decades ago. It has to do with the current love of engineers for a heavy dose of reverberation and bright sound that can result in a somewhat muddy soundstage with inadequate detail.
This is so true! There are plenty of modern recordings with mediocre or even poor sound quality which make older recordings preferable.
Quote from: Bunny on April 05, 2008, 05:21:35 AM
I am still interested in the Gatti recordings; what I have read has piqued my curiosity. I am still hopeful that someone familiar with them with some expertise will be able to comment about them so that I can decide whether to purchase at least one of them.
Well, I am not an expert by any means and don't have Mravinsky or some of the other legendary readings, but I got the Gatti recordings a month ago and have listened to each of the discs about a half-dozen times. While I may not always agree with what he does - like the move from development to recap, first mvt, Sixth Symphony - I'm always at least engaged and usually fascinated. Absolutely terrific stuff. :)
It should be noted that a few other forum members do not share my enthusiasm, though when we played "Name that Orchestra" Gatti's recordings did receive a lot of praise.
So I have decided to investigate Klemperer's recordings of the Tchaikovsky symphonies, even though they are supposedly "strange."
I can find his recordings of symphonies 5 and 6 as part of the "Klemperer Legacy" series, but where is number 4? Has it not been reissued?
Quote from: Thomas Crystalstick on April 19, 2008, 11:43:51 AM
So I have decided to investigate Klemperer's recordings of the Tchaikovsky symphonies, even though they are supposedly "strange."
I can find his recordings of symphonies 5 and 6 as part of the "Klemperer Legacy" series, but where is number 4? Has it not been reissued?
I believe 4 was only resissued from LP as part of a 4,5,6 set, now out of print.
A single 4 was available in Japan in 2005.
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/0c/b5/469c124128a0d41891db5010.L.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MDG39TQ1L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Thomas Crystalstick on April 19, 2008, 11:43:51 AM
So I have decided to investigate Klemperer's recordings of the Tchaikovsky symphonies, even though they are supposedly "strange."
I can find his recordings of symphonies 5 and 6 as part of the "Klemperer Legacy" series, but where is number 4? Has it not been reissued?
It's still available here:
http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1065673
I recently attended a concert of the Pathetique with Rozhdestvensky/LPO here in Oslo. So I have listened to a few of my recordings of this symphony. First Jansons/Oslo. This sounds like middle-of-the-road, well-played and well-produced Tchaikovsky. I like this box set, but for this particular symphony there is a need for more emotional involvement and perhaps energy from Jansons. He's more succesful in his takes on the earlier symhonies.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/610Y3DKHJYL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
So I wanted to hear Rozhdestvensky himself with the London neighbour orchestra - the LSO. This performance confirms that I have a general preference for Russian conductors when it comes to Tchaikovsky in general and the Pathetique specifically. Still, I think one can say that Rozhdestvensky has a completely opposite reading compared to Mr. Pathetique himself - Mravinsky. Both produce emotional readings, Mravinsky just even more so. Rozhdestvensky's take is slow and he pays special attention to small details and musical points. You can expect much more energy and desperation from Mravinsky/Leningrad SO. Both ways are for certain valid, even if Mravinsky for me is in his own league for the Pathetique.
In Oslo Rozhdestvenky was even slower, but I found it immensely beautiful and touching. An old man's Pathetique. Rozhdestvensky is for me one of the few great living condutors today (especially in Russian repertoire).
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YFH54ZFPL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
The last one was Karajan/BPO. The 1964 perfromance and by some considered to be Karajan's best take on this symphony. I enjoyed it very much. When there is room for beauty Karajan don't let the chance slip, and the BPO strings are as always highly enjoyable. Still, there are several conductors I prefer over Karajan in this music. But why not enjoy them all? :)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LBXdKnY3L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Any love for the Philadelphia Orchestra/Eschenbach recordings on Ondine?
Quote from: stingo on October 04, 2008, 06:04:16 AM
Any love for the Philadelphia Orchestra/Eschenbach recordings on Ondine?
I adore their performance of No 6. The playing throughout is consistently excellent (that's not strong enough a word) and the conducting rock-solid. Rather restrained compared to, say, Jansons, Mravinsky or Gatti; the performance runs up to 50 minutes. But it is still quite powerful, partially owing to the fantastic sound quality: absolutely state-of-the-art, and the bass drum's appearances in the third movement
really make you sit up and take notice. Best sound of all the Tchaikovsky Sixths I have, and a fine, highly dramatic performance, too, so it's been frequently in my headphones since it was released a couple months ago.
Can't say anything about 4 or 5.
This is a particularly good 6th:
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/b5/d2/9571810ae7a0f09cf5979110._AA240_.L.jpg)
Intense and dramatic, but not melodramatic, very lyrical and played with full, weighty, but clearly outlined sound by the orchestra.
Quote from: M forever on October 04, 2008, 09:27:53 PM
This is a particularly good 6th:
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/b5/d2/9571810ae7a0f09cf5979110._AA240_.L.jpg)
Intense and dramatic, but not melodramatic, very lyrical and played with full, weighty, but clearly outlined sound by the orchestra.
I am curious as to how that compares to his EMI/Philharmonia recording... eek, another thing I may have to buy.
Sorry, but I don't know the Philharmonia recording. I have a 6th with the Philharmonia, but that is from a much later period, and with Sinopoli, and very different in approach from Giulini.
Quote from: M forever on January 23, 2008, 11:42:12 PM
Since you already have Mravinsky and most of the other sets are simply less than what he did there, you should go for a complete contrast and treat yourself to this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41b-jC9IvSL._AA240_.jpg)
Bernstein's late recordings with the NYP.
Totally indulgent, totally over the top emotional, totally LB. In other words, this is so wrong on so many levels (especially the 6th), but there is so much musical personality and conviction behind it that it is a trip that is really worth taking.
I love his Fifth and Sixth. If loving it is "wrong," I don't want to be right.
Quote from: stingo on October 04, 2008, 06:04:16 AM
Any love for the Philadelphia Orchestra/Eschenbach recordings on Ondine?
I don't like their recording of the 4th but as Brian said the 6th is incredible. It's so dispersing without getting to mushy. And i have never heard a better recording of the call and answer between the stings and horns in the 1st movement (about 13:30 into the Philly recording), it's perfect and so terribly beautiful. That one part is a make or break for me when it comes to any recording of Tchaikovsky's 6th.
Never heard the Philly's 5th though.
For those who don't know the 5th in the Philadelphia/Eschenbach series... It has one of the greatest solos ever - the horn in the second movement is absolutely breathtaking.
Can you extract and post a clip of that? I would be interested in hearing that because the last time I listened to a relatively recent Philadelphia recording, I found the horn playing so annoying that I almost switched the recording off. That was Jansons' recording of Shostkovich 10, and there isn't a single horn note in that recording which isn't attacked with a very safe, but ugly "plop" at the beginning of each note.
Like everyone else above all I love the Mravinsky/DG 4,5,6 set.......so much that this thread has inspired to get the new DG Originals issue to see if sound has been improved from standard DG set. It is not perfect, some of the waltz movements are a bit stiff but these are thrilling powerful accounts with a stamp of authenticity from mother Russia.
The Dorati/LSO/Mercury set mentioned earlier here is excellent performances and my reference complete 1-6 set, the sound is good but not reference quality. A couple years ago when Mercury released these box sets I bought them all, what a treasure they are.
I much prefer early Bernstein/Sony versions to the later slowed down DG versions, I am always puzzled why so many people like the DG versions. Bernstein's over the top emotion and bravura are used to great effect in symphony 5 for instance
The reason to like the late Bernstein recordings on DG is that they are fairly unique because they are so over the top but at the same time, musically very convincing in their own way. There are things going on there that probably no one except for Bernstein could have gotten away with. There are so many recordings of these symphonies, and many other versions do not offer such a stark contrast to lots of other performances, so, like I said, many of them are just "less" than Mravinsky but nothing drastically different in approach. But the late Bernstein is.
What's your opinion on the Mid 70s Karajan 456 cycle? Musically speaking. I know about the technical details since I have the discs. Just want to know how you think of his interpretation.
These don't really interest me. Impressive as they are from a technical point of view, this is Karajan's widescreen sound, which in some repertoire could be extremely impressing, at its shallow worst - Tchaikovsky is a much more detailed and structured composers than Karajan's soapy, smoothed-over readings allow to come through. His later recordings from the 80s with the WP are much better, much more detailed and less clichéed, musically much more deeply structured and "honest". Like in his last Bruckner recordings, Karajan here found back to a naturalness and directness of expression which was what had distinguished his conducting from early on in his career but which had also in some periods of his career fallen victim to his tendency to celebrate his mastery of sound at the expense of musical structuredness and shaping. His last ever performance of the "Pathétique" in Tokyo 1988 with the BP, recently released in a Japanese DG edition, is also very impressive and musically on a very different level from the 70s recordings.
Great information as always, thanks. I just like to watch those performances for fun, and for the impeccability of the Berliner Philharmoniker. I totally agree with you that however "idiosyncratic" or "lacking in depth" those interpretations are, you just have to bow down and admire the technical prowess of the conductor and orchestra at work...
Has anybody here heard the Sinopoli performances with Philharmonia (and can comment)? I see they are available on demand from Arkiv music. Especially the 5th has been incredibly rare.
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/dg437542.jpg) (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/DG429740.jpg)
Quote from: rubio on October 16, 2008, 10:42:49 AM
Has anybody here heard the Sinopoli performances with Philharmonia (and can comment)? I see they are available on demand from Arkiv music. Especially the 5th has been incredibly rare.
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/dg437542.jpg) (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/DG429740.jpg)
As a big Sinopoli fan and collector, I have these, of course, and I have actually also heard them, so yes, I could comment on them. But I am obviously biased, so what value could my observations have?
Quote from: M forever on October 17, 2008, 08:04:24 PM
As a big Sinopoli fan and collector, I have these, of course, and I have actually also heard them, so yes, I could comment on them. But I am obviously biased, so what value could my observations have?
It still would be nice to have some comments on the playing of the orchestra, the sound of these recordings etc. I always find Sinopoli at least very interesting, so I would definately value your competent observations.
The Philharmonia plays in these recordings, as so often, with flamboyant virtuosity and great sense of ensemble. A lot of attention is paid to fine detail such as articulation, phrasing, dynamics, balance but these parameters are well internalized, so the performances make an impression of being played with spontaneity and freedom although the score is generally followed closely. But the music is really played in a musical and flexible way, not just technically executed. Although studio recordings, there is strong "live" feel to them.
Because of the great clarity and transparency this provides, Sinopoli is able to lay out a finely detailed sonic landscape in which a lot of inner detail and color values, especially Tchaikovsky's very colorful woodwind writing which often uses the instruments in their low registers, come through very well. There is a very great dynamic range as the many pp, ppp, pppp and other soft dynamics and crescendi and decsrescendi within these dynamics which Tchaikovsky notated very meticulously are generally very carefully observed, but Sinopoli also builds up very big climaxes, again generally observing the many dynamic steps Tchaikovsky differentiates, and there is some tremendously exciting playing, especially from the Philharmonia brass which is slender and bright and often very brilliant, but never blary or screechy.
A big plus is that the violins are divided left-right, with the celli and basses on the left, so Tchaikovsky's very nuanced writing for the violins and the interplay between the two sections, in particular, but not only, in the finale of the 6th, can be heard very well for once.
The sound is very rich and colorful, a little bass-light, with a very wide dynamic range but somewhat reverberant (these recordings were made in a church in London, and you can hear that). But because the recording is rather up close and playing is so finely articulated and well balanced, you can hear a lot of detail and color although it does get a little cloudy in some climaxes. The orchestra is spaced out widely, so you can localize the sections very well and it does allow you to hear a lot of the multi-layered color detail of the scores in a way which I like to call a "soundscape" rather than a big, compacted mass of sound.
Sinopoli's approach is rather straightforward as far as tempi and the overall interpretive approach is concerned. He mostly follows the tempo modifications indicated in the score with a few touches of his own but in general, the emphasis is on lyrical expression and well articulated detail rather than drastic tempo shifts to make musical "points".
These recordings are great fun to listen to with the scores because you can see and hear a lot of the fine detail in there actually followed and hear a lot of the inner life of the music and the orchestration which are often blurred. My only major criticism would be that the trombones at the end of the development section of the first movement of the 6th are, IMO, not really loud and marcato enough, so this passage does not quite have the devastating impact it can have. OTOH, for most of the passage, Tchaikovsky here writes "only" ff where he often marks climaxes with fff or even ffff. Maybe Sinopoli saw this as a sign that this is not meant to be quite as shattering as it sometimes comes across, and the highly melancholic and intense, but not really resigned sections which immediately follow it seem to confirm that. The end is - not yet - here and Sinopoli also resists the temptation to exaggerate the melodic lines and draw out the ending of the first movement although the playing itself is very intense and expressive, so you don't get the feeling of getting "shortchanged" at all. It is basically a more "classicist" than "highly romantic" approach you hear here, as far as the approach to tempi and form and articulation and phrasing are concerned, but with a great emphasis on lyrical expression and color, not "analytic coolness".
Like with so many Sinopoli performances, when you listen to this, you somehow have the feeling to hear the music in a fresh way, but not because of any particularly idiosyncratic "ideas" or drastic "revelations", simply because it is played and conducted with so much enthusiasm and interest in the inner qualities of the music. I experienced this when I put the 6th on to refresh my memory, with some reluctance because I have really heard this music too often, but I found myself immediately interested in and following the music, so I downloaded the score while listening to the recording and then listened to the whole symphony again, following the score.
Thank you very much for these highly interesting and detailed observations, M! Well, now I've got to acquire these recordings...
I wouldn't say these are as "essential" as the Mravinsky recordings, but then few, if any, are and these recordings with the Philharmonia and Sinopoli are definitely among the best and most interesting among the many other versions I have heard.
But I would also seriously recommend to check out the Norrington recording of the 6th with the RSO Stuttgart. It is a somewhat strange, but in some respects highly interesting version.
Allow me to quote what I wrote a while ago in the HIP thread:
Quote from: M forever on September 26, 2008, 04:56:30 PM
I am not entirely convinced by much of his Stuttgart work, but again, there are enough conductors who do not offer anything interesting at all, and his somewhat provocatively geared "concept" performances actually stimulate the discussion in a way which I find very welcome.
His vibratoless Stuttgart Tchaikovsky 6, for instance, struck me as somewhat odd and whether or not avoiding vibrato completely is "authentic" or not, it is interesting to hear the kind of sound quality he achieved with his very finetuned string section. It sounds awesome. It is also extremely clean in the group intonation and highly transparent. I think the phrasing overall is a little too baroque-rhetorical although in general, expressive and detailed phrasing is always welcome. But the rhythmic springiness of the playing and the sharp articulation bring out a lot of fascinating inner detail which can be seen in the score, but rarely heard. Chords in the winds are mostly very well balanced and outline the harmonic progessions very nicely. The soft brass chorale at the end of the first movement, for instance, has never sounded so good and so expressive. Not because there are any "HIP" secrets there, just because it is rehearsed and played so well.
So while I find the overall result, like a said, still a little odd, this is more interesting and rewarding to listen to than many other interpretations which only scratch a little on the surface of the music and then pour a thick sauce over it.
Quote from: rubio on October 18, 2008, 02:04:59 PM
Thank you very much for these highly interesting and detailed observations, M! Well, now I've got to acquire these recordings...
good luck!