The world famous Mt. Rushmore of South Dakota
George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Theodore Roosevelt, Abraham Lincoln
Who would you include on a "Mt. Rushmore" of composers? ;D
That position is already occupied by Deep Purple:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/54/Deep_Purple_in_Rock.jpg/200px-Deep_Purple_in_Rock.jpg)
Quote from: erato on January 25, 2008, 04:42:01 AM
That position is already occupied by Deep Purple:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/54/Deep_Purple_in_Rock.jpg/200px-Deep_Purple_in_Rock.jpg)
Regrettably (for Deep Purple that is) their lease has just expired, current
permanent tenants:
Richard Wagner, Ludwig van Beethoven, Giuseppe Verdi, W.A. Mozart 8)
marvin
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 25, 2008, 06:33:24 AM
Regrettably (for Deep Purple that is) their lease has just expired, current permanent tenants:
Richard Wagner, Ludwig van Beethoven, Giuseppe Verdi, W.A. Mozart 8)
marvin
In time 2 of the 4 facial profiles will crumble into dust.
2 will out live all earthquakes and never will see erosion.
I'd love to see Schnittke and Pettersson carved in a beautiful face cliff in the grand canyon, no better on
http://www.utah.com/nationalparks/zion/phototour/zion-national-park.htm (http://www.utah.com/nationalparks/zion/phototour/zion-national-park.htm)
the most beautiful place in america
Mt zion /Grand canyon area.
I went there in sept.
i plan to go back every yr, in fact could very well just travel those mountains til death.
A very Holy place, fitting for Pettersson and Schnittke.
Quote from: paulb on January 25, 2008, 07:17:19 AM
In time 2 of the 4 facial profiles will crumble into dust.
I'm guessing one is Verdi but who is the other?
(Oh, I'm not getting into it, no, I'm not . . . .)
Quote from: karlhenning on January 25, 2008, 10:25:43 AM
(Oh, I'm not getting into it, no, I'm not . . . .)
Karl whats the matter, sad to see your deep Purple In rock take the crumble ;D
I use to love that album, sort of underground DP, Sweet Child In Time, great song.
Guido, you guessed right about Verdi, nothing to guess about that.
as to the other, I think Debussy and Ravel could guess that other. ;)
Pity, pity that romantic opera as a form of artistic musical expression is treated with such disrespect by the members of the GMG forum.
marvin
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 26, 2008, 01:25:39 AM
Pity, pity that romantic opera as a form of artistic musical expression is treated with such disrespect by the members of the GMG forum.
marvin
I recall James Levine in discussion with a few NY Met oprera buffs at intermission on some opera, some second rate operra, anyway he said to the effect:
"ohh yeah baby, we are going to bring back the OLD glory to the NYM, we'll bring back Verdi and we won't give a damn what anyone says"
His buddy said with a chuckle " yeah those damn modernists, we RULE , our Levine has the baton of power, we rule baby"
I felt so disgusted at this lack of consideration of what the younger generation really wants to hear.
It never ceases to amaze and stupify me as to how verdi ever came to any popularity.
the only idea I can imagine is for the fact the italians had so few real composers of any significane, so to make them not too jealous of the other more creative europeans, the europeans gave 2 thumbs up to Verdi, to pacify the italians and so they would also feel like they are in the CM family too.
Other than Puccini, who else does the italians offer? ::)
Out of italy, the only music i care to listen to is a bit from Vivaldi, and one opera from Puccini, Turandot.
Quote from: paulb on January 26, 2008, 06:27:42 AM
I recall James Levine in discussion with a few NY Met oprera buffs at intermission on some opera, some second rate operra, anyway he said to the effect:
"ohh yeah baby, we are going to bring back the OLD glory to the NYM, we'll bring back Verdi and we won't give a damn what anyone says"
His buddy said with a chuckle " yeah those damn modernists, we RULE , our Levine has the baton of power, we rule baby"
I felt so disgusted at this lack of consideration of what the younger generation really wants to hear.
It never ceases to amaze and stupify me as to how verdi ever came to any popularity.
the only idea I can imagine is for the fact the italians had so few real composers of any significane, so to make them not too jealous of the other more creative europeans, the europeans gave 2 thumbs up to Verdi, to pacify the italians and so they would also feel like they are in the CM family too.
Other than Puccini, who else does the italians offer? ::)
Out of italy, the only music i care to listen to is a bit from Vivaldi, and one opera from Puccini, Turandot.
Just out of my curiosity, how much Verdi have you ever heard? I'm not talking 1-minute clips now, either.
Quote from: Sforzando on January 26, 2008, 06:33:59 AM
Just out of my curiosity, how much Verdi have you ever heard? I'm not talking 1-minute clips now, either.
Also, which is greater: the amount of Verdi paulb's heard, or the amount of "modernist" music Levine's conducted? ;D Not conducted at the Met, to be sure, but he's got to deal with a fairly conservative board, General Manager, and audience there.
It's hard to believe Levine said he'd "brought back Verdi" to the Met. Verdi's
always been a major presence there.
Verdi's a great composer, its just (I think) that much romantic emotion (of the heart on the sleeve kind) as typified by romantic opera, simply is out of fashion. And Verdi in addition has the disadvantage of being subtle about it most of the time, as compared to Wagner and Puccini who, by reaching into the gut, is able to overcome our slight uneasiness towards that kind of feelings.
I'm half joking here, but only half, and even though I listen very little to romantic opera. But you don't need a lot of musical insight to see that Verdi is a superb musical dramaticist, and I wouldn't exchange his Othello for quite a lot of Wagner.
Quote from: paulb on January 26, 2008, 06:27:42 AM
I recall James Levine in discussion with a few NY Met oprera buffs at intermission on some opera, some second rate operra, anyway he said to the effect:
"ohh yeah baby, we are going to bring back the OLD glory to the NYM, we'll bring back Verdi and we won't give a damn what anyone says"
His buddy said with a chuckle " yeah those damn modernists, we RULE , our Levine has the baton of power, we rule baby"
I felt so disgusted at this lack of consideration of what the younger generation really wants to hear.
It never ceases to amaze and stupify me as to how verdi ever came to any popularity.
the only idea I can imagine is for the fact the italians had so few real composers of any significane, so to make them not too jealous of the other more creative europeans, the europeans gave 2 thumbs up to Verdi, to pacify the italians and so they would also feel like they are in the CM family too.
Other than Puccini, who else does the italians offer? ::)
Out of italy, the only music i care to listen to is a bit from Vivaldi, and one opera from Puccini, Turandot.
Like I said, pity, pity that romantic operatic masterpeices such as Otello, Aida, Rigoletto, La Traviata and Falstaff are treated with such disrespect by the members of the GMG forum.
marvin
Levine was griping at how the old standards, specifically Verdi, was not losing some ground in power, to the recent push by the modernist camp to re-adjust the spot light onto the modern materpieces. Levine said he would not stand for such audacity., "Verdi will live forever".
I had one Leontyne Price Verdi opera, Aida I think,.
Anyway its been too long and only heard parts.
gasp, not my cup of tea nor coffee.
I'm happy to play Puccini's Turandot as often ,as i do not listen to Verdi.
Tell you what I'll track down a cheap used opera or 2 of Verdi. To be fair in the matter. :)
you guys want Verdi to live on another 100 yrs in old glory, if not forever.
Its not going to happen, things are in motion. You can't stop changes. Unless you want to get crushed. Levine's baton has no magical powers to dispel future dispositions in the CM community that will of necessity occur.
Quote from: Guido on January 25, 2008, 10:02:12 AM
I'm guessing one is Verdi but who is the other?
What makes you so sure Guido that Verdi will "crumble" so easily in time?
And with regards to Wagner, why don't you see for yourself how easy it is to get tickets for the Ring Cycle in Bayreuth! After all according to those of you who attacked my suggestions for composers on Mt. Rushmore, a nobody such as Wagner should have great difficulty atrracting a crowd ::).
marvin
Quote from: paulb on January 26, 2008, 09:19:55 AM
Levine was griping at how the old standards, specifically Verdi, was not losing some ground in power, to the recent push by the modernist camp to re-adjust the spot light onto the modern materpieces. Levine said he would not stand for such audacity., "Verdi will live forever".
I had one Leontyne Price Verdi opera, Aida I think,.
Anyway its been too long and only heard parts.
gasp, not my cup of tea nor coffee.
I'm happy to play Puccini's Turandot as often ,as i do not listen to Verdi.
Tell you what I'll track down a cheap used opera or 2 of Verdi. To be fair in the matter. :)
you guys want Verdi to live on another 100 yrs in old glory, if not forever.
Its not going to happen, things are in motion. You can't stop changes. Unless you want to get crushed. Levine's baton has no magical powers to dispel future dispositions in the CM community that will occur.
Excuse me but Verdi doesn't need the MET nor Levine to ensure his survival- he's got the La Scala opera house, the Royal Opera house in London, the Opera house in Paris and countless others who know just how bankable he is. Check your local listing I am sure there are a few Verdi operas playing near you!
marvin
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 26, 2008, 09:26:26 AM
What makes you so sure Guido that Verdi will "crumble" so easily in time?
And with regards to Wagner, why don't you see for yourself how easy it is to get tickets for the Ring Cycle in Bayreuth! After all according to those of you who attacked my suggestions for composers on Mt. Rushmore, a nobody such as Wagner should have great difficulty atrracting a crowd ::).
marvin
Wagner's 3 great operas will live on, provided sufficient talents can be found to fill the shoes necessary to pull off a successful Wagner masterpiece. Parsifal sounds to me as fresh and alive as the day it was scored. Its a
Living opera.
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 26, 2008, 09:29:11 AM
Excuse me but Verdi doesn't need the MET nor Levine to ensure his survival- he's got the La Scala opera house, the Royal Opera house in London, the Opera house in Paris and countless others who know just how bankable he is. Check your local listing I am sure there are a few Verdi operas playing near you!
marvin
Fact of the matter is, the opera houses have to perform Verdi. Think about it, there are really only, say 100 truly significant operas of value, Verdi has seemed to get his votes.
So obviously the opera houses will perform Verdi, its just a matter of due coyrse.
But look at how many orch/concerto forms there are, K's. many of the old standards /the romantics, will slowly fall by the way side over the course of the next 2 decades.
The 2 camps are slowing evolving away from each other.
You guys have the position of power, for now, later on you will be giving away free tickets in order to make the concert hall look full and lively.
Orch's do not like to play for a half empty audience. especially when those in attendance look dreary and bored out their minds.
Its just a matter of due course and time.
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 25, 2008, 06:33:24 AM
Richard Wagner, Ludwig van Beethoven, Giuseppe Verdi, W.A. Mozart
Verdi certainly does not deserve being amidst such exalted company. Unless he's there polishing someone's shoes or something.
Frankly, I'd prefer the original artwork of Mother Nature to the ugly sculpted mugs of four dead old European white men.
Quote from: Wanderer on January 26, 2008, 09:41:02 AM
Verdi certainly does not deserve being amidst such exalted company. Unless he's there polishing someone's shoes or something.
with a personal conviction such as this, why should i even try to give Verdi another hearing. ::)
which i already know the un-prejudiced outcome.
Quote from: paulb on January 25, 2008, 07:17:19 AM
the most beautiful place in america
Mt zion /Grand canyon area.
I went there in sept.
Bryce Canyon is much better. Zion is way too touristy anyway.
Quote from: paulb on January 26, 2008, 09:37:53 AM
You guys have the position of power, for now, later on you will be giving away free tickets in order to make the concert hall look full and lively.
Meanwhile I have to pay $80 to sit at orchestra level for the NY Philharmonic and the same to sit upstairs at the Met; they're having such trouble getting people to buy tickets.
Quote from: paulb on January 26, 2008, 09:30:15 AM
Wagner's 3 great operas will live on, provided sufficient talents can be found to fill the shoes necessary to pull off a successful Wagner masterpiece. Parsifal sounds to me as fresh and alive as the day it was scored. Its a Living opera.
Wagner wrote 10 operas that remain in the current repertoire of most houses; could you tell which are the other two "great" ones besides Parsifal?
Quote from: paulb on January 26, 2008, 09:19:55 AM
Levine was griping at how the old standards, specifically Verdi, was not losing some ground in power, to the recent push by the modernist camp to re-adjust the spot light onto the modern materpieces. Levine said he would not stand for such audacity., "Verdi will live forever".
I had one Leontyne Price Verdi opera, Aida I think,.
Anyway its been too long and only heard parts.
So in other words you know no Verdi. I can't imagine James Levine, a non-confrontational personality if there ever was one, griping at Verdi's continuing interest for the operatic public. If he felt that way, why does he continue to conduct Falstaff, Otello, Don Carlo, and the Requiem?
Quote from: Sforzando on January 26, 2008, 11:30:25 AM
Wagner wrote 10 operas that remain in the current repertoire of most houses; could you tell which are the other two "great" ones besides Parsifal?
Sorry! I did not realize you were talking to Paulb.
Quote from: Anne on January 26, 2008, 11:37:59 AM
Sorry! I did not realize you were talking to Paulb.
Quite all right, I did not realize I was talking to Paulb either.
Quote from: Sforzando on January 26, 2008, 11:55:12 AM
Quite all right, I did not realize I was talking to Paulb either.
:) Then I will say
Meistersinger and
Tristan.
Quote from: Sforzando on January 26, 2008, 11:30:25 AM
Wagner wrote 10 operas that remain in the current repertoire of most houses; could you tell which are the other two "great" ones besides Parsifal?
My bad. There's 6.The 4 Ring operas , Parsifal, and Tristan. I hardly know Miestersinger, which i will try to correct, but can't promise i'll like it. does it offer as much modernism as the others? or stuck in old stylings.? IOW if any hint of Beethoven comes through in Miester or the story offers little psychological ideas, then i may move on.
M, yes i hope one day to see Bryce Canyon. maybe in late may, before tourism cranks up. The europeans that visit the southwest are like so jealous,,,no make that envious that we have such beauty, and not over-populated, at least not yet.
But i suspect south california is about to make yet another massive exodus.
Quote from: paulb on January 26, 2008, 12:02:45 PM
M, yes i hope one day to see Bryce Canyon. maybe in late may, before tourism cranks up. The europeans that visit the southwest are like so jealous,,,no make that envious that we have such beauty, and not over-populated, at least not yet.
But i suspect south california is about to make yet another massive exodus.
So you haven't even been to Bryce Canyon (which is around the corner from Zion) but you decide Zion is the most beautiful place in America? Hmm... What other places *have* you been to? Does that correspond to your making judgments about music that you don't really know either?
Dunno what you mean by massive exodus, but I am leaving California in two days. But I thik they will survive that. :)
Quote from: M forever on January 26, 2008, 12:15:20 PM
So you haven't even been to Bryce Canyon (which is around the corner from Zion) but you decide Zion is the most beautiful place in America? Hmm... What other places *have* you been to? Does that correspond to your making judgments about music that you don't really know either?
Dunno what you mean by massive exodus, but I am leaving California in two days. But I thik they will survive that. :)
Due to time contraints i had to cut short my thus far 7500 mile journey home.
I went as far as the Lodge, but had to continue west towards the 4 corners and then south to texas then to New orleans.
That entire south utah is stunning.
Now as to my musical journey's, these are places i;ve been to.
I am listening to a yiutube clip of Verdi's Aida.this is the 3rd clip. The first 2 i could take no more than 20 seconds worth. this clip of 5 minutes has given me enough idea of the terrain.
Not for me, in any sense. I hate it, as much as i can't stand Beethoven, which i had previously placed the 2 composers in the same pot, and now confirms why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmiLeE-8bHI
Quote from: erato on January 25, 2008, 04:42:01 AM
That position is already occupied by Deep Purple:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/54/Deep_Purple_in_Rock.jpg/200px-Deep_Purple_in_Rock.jpg)
Pre
cisely!That,
Master of Reality, and
Rainbow Rising are probably my favorite ever Rock albums.
Quote from: paulb on January 26, 2008, 12:50:18 PM
Due to time contraints i had to cut short my thus far 7500 mile journey home.
I went as far as the Lodge, but had to continue west towards the 4 corners and then south to texas then to New orleans.
That entire south utah is stunning.
Now as to my musical journey's, these are places i;ve been to.
I am listening to a yiutube clip of Verdi's Aida.this is the 3rd clip. The first 2 i could take no more than 20 seconds worth. this clip of 5 minutes has given me enough idea of the terrain.
Not for me, in any sense. I hate it, as much as i can't stand Beethoven, which i had previously placed the 2 composers in the same pot, and now confirms why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmiLeE-8bHI
I see. So you can't stand Beethoven either. I'm rapidly losing interest in this discussion. It's one thing to be discriminating, another to be dismissive.
Quote from: Sforzando on January 26, 2008, 01:03:55 PM
I see. So you can't stand Beethoven either. I'm rapidly losing interest in this discussion. It's one thing to be discriminating, another to be dismissive.
My feelings about Beethoven comes as no surprise to most forum members here. I've been ventilating my feelings about beethoven with no concern for proper etiquitte, for years now, both here and the CMG forum, as well on Gramophone and lately over at amazon. Everyone knows how i stand with regards to Beethoven.
Its not my intentions to come across as venemous or scathing in appearance as to how i feel about Beethoven's music. The reaction happens of itself, spontaneously, i am not guilty as would seem the case. And in that regard I call on both Debussy and Ravel for justifying my opinion. I call on both as my witness, they are more believable and regarded in CM than I, as both were supreme masters in the high art of creative expression.
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 26, 2008, 09:26:26 AM
What makes you so sure Guido that Verdi will "crumble" so easily in time?
And with regards to Wagner, why don't you see for yourself how easy it is to get tickets for the Ring Cycle in Bayreuth! After all according to those of you who attacked my suggestions for composers on Mt. Rushmore, a nobody such as Wagner should have great difficulty atrracting a crowd ::).
marvin
Hey, hey , hey - this was not my opinion, I was just wondering which of Mozart, Beethoven and Wagner paulb deemed to be so poor that they would be forgotten with time... My guess of Verdi as the first was merely that he is not generally considered as great as the other three. It turns out that Paulb doesn't like Wagner's music either, which is perhaps predictable...
Quote from: Guido on January 26, 2008, 03:23:52 PM
Hey, hey , hey - this was not my opinion, I was just wondering which of Mozart, Beethoven and Wagner paulb deemed to be so poor that they would be forgotten with time... My guess of Verdi as the first was merely that he is not generally considered as great as the other three. It turns out that Paulb doesn't like Wagner's music either, which is perhaps predictable...
Recently a HUGE fan of Wagner, provided the recording does justice to the score.
Parsifal a supreme living masterpiece. The Legend Of The Grail lives on, and speaks volumes to this world.
Mozart IS that phenomenon we call Orpheus.
Quote from: Brian on January 26, 2008, 09:54:58 AM
Frankly, I'd prefer the original artwork of Mother Nature to the ugly sculpted mugs of four dead old European white men.
I agree - let's get Deep Purple off of there. ::)
Quote from: paulb on January 26, 2008, 03:10:14 PM
And in that regard I call on both Debussy and Ravel for justifying my opinion. I call on both as my witness, they are more believable and regarded in CM than I, as both were supreme masters in the high art of creative expression.
To justify
my opinion of Beethoven, I call upon a Higher Authority.
Quote from: Sforzando on January 26, 2008, 04:06:11 PM
To justify my opinion of Beethoven, I call upon a Higher Authority.
i am fully aware of Beethoven's god-like status among his devotees. 'the immortal' has one web site devoted only to discussion of Beethoven. And after reading in the K's of posts providing mountainous heaps of wonderous accolades and praises, I'm now immune to any upsetting affects this once had upon me.
Like the greeks attitudes of old towards the various gods, we too must learn tolerance and a level of acceptance.
Quote from: paulb on January 26, 2008, 04:36:00 PM
Like the greeks attitudes of old towards the various gods, we too must learn tolerance and a level of acceptance.
Aye.
Quote from: Haffner on January 26, 2008, 04:44:40 PM
Aye.
ohh good, a potential convert to Pettersson....or is proselytizing not allowed ;D
....or only just brainwashing ;)
Quote from: paulb on January 26, 2008, 04:52:57 PM
ohh good, a potential convert to Pettersson....or is proselytizing not allowed ;D
....or only just brainwashing ;)
:D ;)