I was astonished to see that the list price for a single Hyperion CD (not SACD) is now $24! I find this absurd, particularly since they have priced themselves well above every other label. I can certainly understand that they need to make a profit, but I suspect such a move can only erode their market share and send them into an even more alarming financial tailspin. Too bad, they have a lot of good artists (who, in the near future, will presumably be recording for Naxos instead).
Quote from: head-case on January 30, 2008, 05:44:02 PM
I was astonished to see that the list price for a single Hyperion CD (not SACD) is now $24! I find this absurd, particularly since they have priced themselves well above every other label. I can certainly understand that they need to make a profit, but I suspect such a move can only erode their market share and send them into an even more alarming financial tailspin. Too bad, they have a lot of good artists (who, in the near future, will presumably be recording for Naxos instead).
I never paid their former suggested retail price either.
Quote from: head-case on January 30, 2008, 05:44:02 PM
I was astonished to see that the list price for a single Hyperion CD (not SACD) is now $24!
I don't own many Hyperion CDs. Guess why? It's a label for millionaires and billionaires. :-\
Quote from: BorisG on January 30, 2008, 07:07:41 PM
I never paid their former suggested retail price either.
Yes, some sites discount, but now they discount from a higher price.
QuoteI don't own many Hyperion CDs. Guess why? It's a label for millionaires and billionaires. Undecided
A shame, they have some very fine artists, but I am certainly reluctant to shell out so much.
Weak dollar? I've never seen them as particularly expensive (in Europe they are prisced like most others), and they are frequently on sale. On mdt hey were just on sale at 8.50 GBP which is something like 16 USD, and I recently scored some in Norway at half price (including brand new issues). And they have their extremely valuable Helios reissue series which I in Norway can get for the same price more or less, as Naxos. Comparing Hyperion production values to Naxos are alike to comparing an Audi to a Skoda, and I have a lot of both labels. Which is not to say that I don't appreciate Naxos' efforts.
Quote from: erato on January 30, 2008, 10:07:57 PM
Weak dollar? I've never seen them as particularly expensive (in Europe they are prisced like most others), and they are frequently on sale. On mdt hey were just on sale at 8.50 GBP which is something like 16 USD, and I recently scored some in Norway at half price (including brand new issues). And they have their extremely valuable Helios reissue series which I in Norway can get for the same price more or less, as Naxos. Comparing Hyperion production values to Naxos are alike to comparing an Audi to a Skoda, and I have a lot of both labels. Which is not to say that I don't appreciate Naxos' efforts.
In this I disagree with you Erato, the production values of Hyperion and Naxos are of the same high standards. the only difference is, that the booklets are far better written, and the layout is superior. Apart from that, no difference. Maybe its good to know, that quite a few ex Hyperion people. work for Naxos now.
Quote from: Harry on January 30, 2008, 10:28:19 PM
the booklets are far better written, and the layout is superior.
That (for me) is an important part of the production values. I have to like the packaging. Or else I could just as easily listen to a download. Like the difference between the finish in the interiors of an Audi compared to a Skoda using the same engine, suspension etc...
Quote from: erato on January 30, 2008, 10:38:39 PM
That (for me) is an important part of the production values. I have to like the packaging. Or else I could just as easily listen to a download. Like the difference between the finish in the interiors of an Audi compared to a Skoda using the same engine, suspension etc...
Clear! :)
A new full price (SA)CD is in the shops (Netherlands) often more than €20, some labels go in a smal brick-and-mortar shop for as much as €24! :o Price at jpc for a new Hyperion (SA)CD is €19 (=$27,55 at €1/$1,45).
I avoid buying new issues and if I do, never at the full list price.
Luckily there are always specials offers around the corner: British on line shops like MDT and Europadisc do frequently a "full to mid price" offer on the entire catalogue of a label.
Q
Quote from: Que on January 30, 2008, 11:19:56 PM
A new full price (SA)CD is in the shops (Netherlands) often more than €20, some labels go in a smal brick-and-mortar shop for as much as €24! :o Price at jpc for a new Hyperion (SA)CD is €19 (=$27,55 at €1/$1,45).
I avoid buying new issues and if I do, never at the full list price.
Luckily there are always specials offers around the corner: British on line shops like MDT and Europadisc do frequently a "full to mid price" offer on the entire catalogue of a label.
Q
Yes, you could say, I have more or less the same attitude.
If possible I avoid full price cd's.
It's no coincidence I have very few Hyperion recordings in my collection. There are many I'd love to hear, but their prices are outrageous in the US compared to just about any other label. A stupid business plan on their part :(
Boy, out of curiosity, I just 'searched' my classic movie database (updated yesterday after 10 months!) - there are 162 Hyperion listings (probably 20 or so of these are 'Dyads') - I really like the label, for many of the reasons mentioned!
But doubt that I really paid 'full price' for the vast majority of these discs - purchased a bunch of them through BRO (http://www.berkshirerecordoutlet.com/cgi-bin/seek.pl?StartRow=1&Label=HYPERION&QueryText=&RPP=50&A,%20ndOr=OR&Meth=Some&pprice=&genre=), which currently has 546 listed @ $6.99 per single CDs; and also through the Amazon Marketplace (only 'new' ones, mainly using Newbury Comics & Caiman) - however, I just looked up some Caiman offerings on Amazon, and w/ the $3 added for S&H, there rates are now up to $19 - that is STEEP for a CD - will be interesting to watch this development - :(
What has always astounded me is the differences between the price of musical CDs & DVDs - when I make a BIG order w/ a friend from the Columbia House DVD club, we average about $8 per disc - just can't believe the high & rising rates for retail listed CDs! ::)
Quote from: SonicMan on January 31, 2008, 07:55:55 AM
Boy, out of curiosity, I just 'searched' my classic movie database (updated yesterday after 10 months!) - there are 162 Hyperion listings (probably 20 or so of these are 'Dyads') - I really like the label, for many of the reasons mentioned!
But doubt that I really paid 'full price' for the vast majority of these discs - purchased a bunch of them through BRO (http://www.berkshirerecordoutlet.com/cgi-bin/seek.pl?StartRow=1&Label=HYPERION&QueryText=&RPP=50&A,%20ndOr=OR&Meth=Some&pprice=&genre=), which currently has 546 listed @ $6.99 per single CDs; and also through the Amazon Marketplace (only 'new' ones, mainly using Newbury Comics & Caiman) - however, I just looked up some Caiman offerings on Amazon, and w/ the $3 added for S&H, there rates are now up to $19 - that is STEEP for a CD - will be interesting to watch this development - :(
What has always astounded me is the differences between the price of musical CDs & DVDs - when I make a BIG order w/ a friend from the Columbia House DVD club, we average about $8 per disc - just can't believe the high & rising rates for retail listed CDs! ::)
I also never pay full price, but now that the list prices are higher discounted prices are higher. Caiman now operates towerrecords.com and hyperion discs that they apparently had in stock before the price increase are at the old price (discounted to $13.91) but new stock appears to be at $20.99. By contrast Decca or DG full prices release are shown listing for $17 and selling at various discounts, between $13 and $15. Chandos lists for $18 and typically sells for $15.
I checked my Hyperion discs and I was surprised to realise I have only 2 of them!
German 17th-Century Church Music - CDA67079
Locatelli - Violin Sonatas - CDA66363
Quote from: 71 dB on January 31, 2008, 09:03:22 AM
I checked my Hyperion discs and I was surprised to realise I have only 2 of them!
German 17th-Century Church Music - CDA67079
Locatelli - Violin Sonatas - CDA66363
I think I have hundreds of Hyperions. Regardless of price, I wouldn't be without Herrick's Bach organ works, the piano music of Alexandrov, Nikolayeva's Art of Fugue, Hewitt's various Bach recordings, Mass in B minor conducted by King, Beethoven's Piano Trios/Florestan, Berwald chamber music, Bloch Piano Quintets, Boris Tchaikovsky's Chamber Symphony, etc. To me, a few more dollars isn't much for music and/or performances that are compelling for many years to come.
Quote from: 71 dB on January 31, 2008, 09:03:22 AM
I checked my Hyperion discs and I was surprised to realise I have only 2 of them!
German 17th-Century Church Music - CDA67079
Locatelli - Violin Sonatas - CDA66363
That's too bad. I'd rate Hyperion as the very best label for chamber music (the Florestan Trio's recordings of the Brahms piano trios are for the ages, for example). Their products are characterized by the highest artistic value and the highest quality engineering, IMO. But they lost a very costly lawsuit a few years back and this latest development makes me fear that they are or will soon be near financial insolvency.
548 Hyperion cd's. I looked in my files.
I think I have 2 Hyperion CDs, even one since they are series: Bach Orchestral Suites and Sinfonias. They were my very first classical CDs.
Given the pricing, and my general taste in music, I have gone out of my way to acquire exactly one Hyperion CD: Robert King's recording of Monteverdi's Vespers (1610). I downloaded the Florestan Trio record of Schubert's D. 929 off iTunes, which had it at an acceptable 256 kbps.
I guess that makes two for me, too.
I haven't counted mine, but a good guess is about 50. Of those, however, probably 35 have been purchased at BRO at a discount, another 12 or 13 are used, and only 2 or 3 were purchased new at full price. No argument about their artistic merit, but $25 (incl. S & H) is just a bit too much for me for a single disk, no matter the merit. :-\
8)
----------------
Now playing:
Haydn Baryton Trios - Haydn Baryton Trio - FJH Trio #052 in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello H 11:052 1st mvmt
15 Hyperion, and 4 Helios.
Quote from: head-case on January 30, 2008, 05:44:02 PM
I was astonished to see that the list price for a single Hyperion CD (not SACD) is now $24! I find this absurd, particularly since they have priced themselves well above every other label.
I wondered - Hyperion can't be the only label in this price category. In my experience many of the smaller, specialised labels are pretty expensive as well. Like Alpha and Zig-Zag - which are particularly hard to find at a decent price.
Since this thread has drifted somewhat to a Hyperion-count 8): I have not much: two of King's Händel oratorios and had the Brahms with the Florestan Trio. Some Lieder issues on still on the wish list however.
Q
Quote from: Harry on January 31, 2008, 09:37:07 AM
548 Hyperion cd's. I looked in my files.
Good man. An example, methinks, that if it is British it is best! ;D
Like most of the independents Hyperion has made itself indispensable.
Witness the 'Romantic Piano Concerto' cycle, alone.
None of the majors would have embarked on this journey or with consistently high musical and engineering standards.
They are more than welcome to my, occasional, £11.50.
Gurn and I are joined at the hip when it comes to Hyperions.
Most I got from BRO and almost all others as used from Amazon, eBay, Mom/Pop used mortar & brick stores.
There is no doubt that Hyperion is one of the best labels out there. I have dozens (probably not "hundreds") and have purchased most of mine used, at Academy. While they are superb recordings, I agree that they are slightly pricey. On the other hand, if you're getting great pleasure from them... :-\
--Bruce
Quote from: bhodges on February 01, 2008, 07:05:26 AM
There is no doubt that Hyperion is one of the best labels out there. I have dozens (probably not "hundreds") and have purchased most of mine used, at Academy. While they are superb recordings, I agree that they are slightly pricey. On the other hand, if you're getting great pleasure from them... :-\
--Bruce
But on the other hand, the feeling that you are getting ripped off :-\ It is the same plastic material, same paper quality and generally about the same level of artistic talent as with other labels. The only reason that they can price it as high is simply because they can, that seems wrong. Now if there were some CDs that were indispensable to me I could hunt around but luckily there is no such thing for me 8)
btw, I forgot Hamelin is with Hyperion ;D I have the Alkan Symphony and the Rzewksi CD from them as well.
$25 is nothing...
In Canada, you'll rarely ever see any classical music CD under $20-25... with the exception of Naxos and Eloquence. If it's an import from Europe, it often goes up to $30-40... and don't get me started on multi-CD boxes.
The old saying is still valid:
You gets what you pays for. 8)
Quote from: Figaro on February 01, 2008, 08:25:32 AM
$25 is nothing...
In Canada, you'll rarely ever see any classical music CD under $20-25... with the exception of Naxos and Eloquence. If it's an import from Europe, it often goes up to $30-40... and don't get me started on multi-CD boxes.
Where do you live? $25 is same with me (in BC, Canada). I don't think our local library has classical to choose from. It's a small one that's attached to our local swimming pool.
I really don't know where everyone else is getting them dirt cheap.
What really ticks me off is $10 for Naxos CDs. Now what can I buy? Only Brilliant boxes, basically, and "EMI Triples." :(
If you gotta blame someone, blame GWB and the weak dollar. A near halving in value does something to the price of imported goods.
Quote from: erato on February 01, 2008, 11:18:47 PM
If you gotta blame someone, blame GWB and the weak dollar. A near halving in value does something to the price of imported goods.
Better blame the dumber half of americans for voting GWB.
Or perhaps we should blame the reasons for the fact half
of americans are so dumb and brainwashed?
Quote from: 71 dB on February 02, 2008, 12:44:14 AM
Better blame the dumber half of americans for voting GWB.
Half?
Quote from: Brian on February 01, 2008, 07:45:18 PM
What really ticks me off is $10 for Naxos CDs. Now what can I buy? Only Brilliant boxes, basically, and "EMI Triples." :(
I know the feeling. I remember the good old days when Naxos CD's cost about half that.
After a quick scan, I only have one:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Z6ZFZGCXL._AA240_.jpg)
However, we received it for renewing out membership to Colorado Public Radio. :)
I have lots of Hyperion, more than half BRO.
On my recent trip to Canada, the Hyperion are about $30. So I passed. I may be going to the US in April or so this year. If so, I'd like to make a BRO order and have it delivered to someone in the city I am going to for me to pick up. I think I am going to The University of Maryland. Does anyone live in the area?
Incidentally, I do have three Hyperion CDs; one was a gift and two were bought used.
BORTKIEWICZ Symphonies; Martyn Brabbins and the BBC Scottish
BOWEN Viola Concerto; Lawrence Power etc.
GRAINGER Piano Music; Marc-Andre Hamelin
The booklets are always beautiful, and I wish the other labels were up to Hyperion's standards, but ... I also wish I could afford the things. :( Brilliant has some 6-CD box sets available for $24, and no matter what the repertoire differences between the two, I'd always spring for the box. For instance, Hyperion has an acclaimed performance of Arensky's Second String Quartet (violin, viola, two cellos), but I'll likely buy the Brilliant version even though the rest of the music in their set is obscure stuff I don't really need.
I never buy Hyperion CDs unless it's from a third party (don't care which) selling it for half the price or less. I rather gamble over a used CD then cave in to those ridiculous prices. Plus, Hyperion is pretty over-rated as a company and i generally find Harmonia Mundi's choice of performers to be superior.
Hyperion CDs comprise a very sizable part of my collection. Apart from everything else, their cover art is more often than not pure delight. In Greece they cost about 19.5/20 euros but with quite a number of titles on offer now and then. I mainly purchase CDs through the internet for some years now and there's no noticeable price difference with the other major labels.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on February 02, 2008, 12:51:12 PM
I never buy Hyperion CDs unless it's from a third party (don't care which) selling it for half the price or less. I rather gamble over a used CD then cave in to those ridiculous prices. Plus, Hyperion is pretty over-rated as a company and i generally find Harmonia Mundi's choice of performers to be superior.
Yes and yes. HM is one of my favorite labels, not only for performers but for repertoire too. I DO have a lot of Helios though, so it isn't as though Hyperion doesn't have anything for me.... :)
8)
----------------
Now playing:
The Complete Piano Sonatas of Haydn (4 of 14) - Christine Schornsheim - Hob 16 02 Sonata #11 in Bb for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Largo
Quote from: Hector on February 01, 2008, 06:35:44 AM
Witness the 'Romantic Piano Concerto' cycle, alone.
None of the majors would have embarked on this journey or with consistently high musical and engineering standards.
Yes, I love this series and I'm collecting all of them.
So far I have about 30 Hyperion CDs and plan to collect many more.
:)
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on February 02, 2008, 12:51:12 PM
Plus, Hyperion is pretty over-rated as a company and i generally find Harmonia Mundi's choice of performers to be superior.
Almost can't say that in a way because if you like the Romantics, Hyperion is great for that. Classical and older? I'd say go with HM.
Quote from: 12tone. on February 02, 2008, 01:10:48 PM
Almost can't say that in a way because if you like the Romantics, Hyperion is great for that. Classical and older? I'd say go with HM.
Do not dismiss HM for Romantics, witness Schubert with Melos, Chopin with Claret & Planes, Mahler with Herreweghe, Debussy with Boffard, to name a few.
Quote from: 71 dB on February 02, 2008, 12:44:14 AM
Or perhaps we should blame the reasons for the fact half
of americans are so dumb and brainwashed?
You would fit in very well with that half.
Quote from: Don on February 02, 2008, 03:01:10 PM
You would fit in very well with that half.
The half that voted for twelve years of Bushes? But what about the other half, that may vote for more Clinton? Gluttons for punishment, both halves.
Quote from: 71 dB on February 02, 2008, 12:44:14 AM
Better blame the dumber half of americans for voting GWB.
What dumber half would that be?
The majority of Americans voted AGAINST Bush in 2000. He'd still be sitting in the bleachers at Texas Rangers games had he not been handed the presidency by the Supreme Court.
I'd think a student of American history such as yourself would know that.
Then again you've never been one to let facts interfere with your spewing...
(Bush's 2004 win was strictly a one-off due to paranoia after 9/11. Proof? In 2007 his party was swept from Congress).
QuoteOr perhaps we should blame the reasons for the fact half
of americans are so dumb and brainwashed?
My! :D
Quote from: donwyn on February 02, 2008, 05:41:54 PM
The majority of Americans voted AGAINST Bush in 2000. He'd still be sitting in the bleachers at Texas Rangers games had he not been handed the presidency by the Supreme Court.
*cough*
I beg to differ. George Bush won Florida outright. The real blame lies upon perhaps the dumbest of all the shades of dumb which grace America - the tens of thousands of Floridians who voted for Ralph Nader :P
Are we still discussing Hyperion prices?
If you think they are high I hope you are never interested in Paul Hindemith! I received today my order from WERGO for the single paul hindemith lieder.. and it's $27.38.
Then there is Das Unaufhörliche, a two CD issue for $48.10. Shipping and handling not included, and they ship Airmail from Germany.
So count your blessings and enjoy Hyperion, it's one of the best labels and best buy for quality discs. 8)
Before we get back on topic, uffeviking, may I ask what happened to your postcount?
(http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/803/uffevikingoj1.jpg)
::) YOU tell ME! ::)
Who or what is leet? Anybody enlighten me, please!
Quote from: Brian on February 02, 2008, 05:48:31 PM
*cough*
I beg to differ. George Bush won Florida outright.
I don't follow...
Who needs the Supreme Court if Florida is a lock?
Quote from: donwyn on February 02, 2008, 06:25:19 PM
I don't follow...
Who needs the Supreme Court if Florida is a lock?
But he didn't need them; if the recounts had gone on, he would have still won. Last I heard ('05 I think), they had concluded that Bush won by something like 100 votes. EDIT: 540.
Quote from: Brian on February 02, 2008, 06:29:09 PM
But he didn't need them; if the recounts had gone on, he would have still won. Last I heard ('05 I think), they had concluded that Bush won by something like 100 votes.
That's not how it played out, though. The recounts were halted by a Supreme Court mandate. Thus Bush leapt to office riding the coattails of a technicality.
And I'm sorry but 'clearing' Bush after the fact with some sort of unofficial post-election recounting/dabbling strikes me as wishful thinking...
Quote from: donwyn on February 02, 2008, 06:48:28 PM
That's not how it played out, though. The recounts were halted by a Supreme Court mandate. Thus Bush leapt to office riding the coattails of a technicality.
And I'm sorry but 'clearing' Bush after the fact with some sort of unofficial post-election recounting/dabbling strikes me as wishful thinking...
...but continuing to talk about how important a role nine Supreme Court justices played in the election isn't wishful thinking... :)
Quote from: uffeviking on February 02, 2008, 06:17:03 PM
Who or what is leet? Anybody enlighten me, please!
1337.
"Leet" or "Leetspeak" is a type of slang often found on the internet where people use numbers to replace letters. The term seems to be derived from the word "elite".
So my guess is that whatever nerd designed this forum engine thought it would be funny to make it say "leet" when your postcount gets to "1337".
Quote from: Don on February 02, 2008, 03:01:10 PM
You would fit in very well with that half.
I don't fit in very well with any group. I am in the minority of minorities.
Quote from: donwyn on February 02, 2008, 05:41:54 PM
What dumber half would that be?
The majority of Americans voted AGAINST Bush in 2000. He'd still be sitting in the bleachers at Texas Rangers games had he not been handed the presidency by the Supreme Court.
Yes, but the minority who voted for Bush was almost as large as the majority voting against him. That's why I call it the dumber
half.
Quote from: donwyn on February 02, 2008, 05:41:54 PMI'd think a student of American history such as yourself would know that.
I am not a student of American history.
Quote from: donwyn on February 02, 2008, 05:41:54 PMThen again you've never been one to let facts interfere with your spewing...
What facts contradict with what I said?
Quote from: donwyn on February 02, 2008, 05:41:54 PM(Bush's 2004 win was strictly a one-off due to paranoia after 9/11. Proof? In 2007 his party was swept from Congress).
Who kept the paranoia alive? Bush's way has been to make the people fear.
Well, even with the high prices they don't seem to afford to hire a professional web-designer or cover artist....both look very amateurish and dated.
The same thing is with Opus Arte and basically all classical (opera, concerts, ballet) DVDs. One can get movies and tv seasons for as less as 10 euros but I hardly ever see any classical DVDs below 20...plus most of them are just taped performances that must cost almost nothing to produce!
Quote from: 71 dB on February 02, 2008, 11:58:10 PM
I don't fit in very well with any group. I am in the minority of minorities.
Statistically speaking, 100% of all people are minorities.
;D
Quote from: 71 dB on February 02, 2008, 11:58:10 PM
Yes, but the minority who voted for Bush was almost as large as the majority voting against him. That's why I call it the dumber half.
Why are you pointing fingers at what a
minority of voters did??
They're not responsible for the actions of an incumbent!
This doesn't compute...
Anyway, your post implied the
majority of voters - those responsible for voting Bush into office. But you were wrong in that. The popular vote went to Gore.
QuoteI am not a student of American history.
It'd behoove you to be more up on things before you start slinging epithets.
QuoteWhat facts contradict with what I said?
See above.
QuoteWho kept the paranoia alive? Bush's way has been to make the people fear.
You miss my point entirely. Fear isn't Bush's calling card - anymore! 'Else his party would still be in control of congress and a rival party member - a Democrat - wouldn't be seriously threatening to take over the presidency.
Quote from: donwyn on February 03, 2008, 09:25:32 AM
Why are you pointing fingers at what a minority of voters did??
They're not responsible for the actions of an incumbent!
This doesn't compute...
Which brings me to the salient point in the argument: The truly responsible party for the last seven years of American history is not the people who voted for George W. Bush; it is George W. Bush. If you want to blame Americans for voting for him, the blame can then be backtracked to Bush himself again, who bumped McCain out of the Republican nomination using scummy tactics, or you could choose to blame Barbara for giving birth to him, Yale for letting him graduate, or the voters of Texas for giving him a political career. The point is it's probably best to let the buck stop where it belongs - to the extent which America may be messed up because of the policies of the Bush administration, that is the responsibility of the Bush administration, not the people who elected him, whether they are Florida voters, loony Naderites, or the Supreme Court. George Bush could have been a good president, and was for a while, and his trip off the rails is indicative of his own ineptness and poor judgment.
Now back to Hyperion :)
Quote from: Brian on February 03, 2008, 10:20:04 AM
Which brings me to the salient point in the argument: The truly responsible party for the last seven years of American history is not the people who voted for George W. Bush; it is George W. Bush. If you want to blame Americans for voting for him, the blame can then be backtracked to Bush himself again, who bumped McCain out of the Republican nomination using scummy tactics, or you could choose to blame Barbara for giving birth to him, Yale for letting him graduate, or the voters of Texas for giving him a political career. The point is it's probably best to let the buck stop where it belongs - to the extent which America may be messed up because of the policies of the Bush administration, that is the responsibility of the Bush administration, not the people who elected him, whether they are Florida voters, loony Naderites, or the Supreme Court. George Bush could have been a good president, and was for a while, and his trip off the rails is indicative of his own ineptness and poor judgment.
I follow what you're saying, Brian. And I've never argued otherwise.
I'm more interested in the inaccuracies of 71's depiction of events.
He swung pretty wide...
Quote from: donwyn on February 03, 2008, 10:40:38 AM
I follow what you're saying, Brian. And I've never argued otherwise.
I'm more interested in the inaccuracies of 71's depiction of events.
He swung pretty wide...
Oh I wasn't trying to disagree with you. I was kind of expanding off your comment. :)