Based on the 2 other threads about Karajan, that I'm asking this.. What's your top 5 Karajan recordings? I hope this will give us newbies, a good starting point in exploring this very popular conductor.
For interesting view points about the conductor, please do visit these other threads..
Warning: Herbert von Karajan (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5738.0.html)
What is Karajan known for? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,954.0.html)
Quote from: jjfan on January 31, 2008, 01:02:49 AM
Based on the 2 other threads about Karajan, that I'm asking this.. What's your top 5 Karajan recordings? I hope this will give us newbies, a good starting point in exploring this very popular conductor.
For interesting view points about the conductor, please do visit these other threads..
Warning: Herbert von Karajan (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5738.0.html)
What is Karajan known for? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,954.0.html)
Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 2. Sixties.
Brahms, Symphony No. 1, Seventies.
Bruckner Symphony No 8.
Sibelius Symphony No. 4.
Straus, Metamorphosen
All DGG
And apart from all that the Beethoven Symphonies, whatever age, but I prefer the sixties recordings by a small margin.
Mozart: Violin concerti 3 & 5 with Mutter, DG
Mozart: Horn concerti with Brain, EMI (mono)
LvB: Sym 9, the '77 recording, DG
There are others, but in my collection these are absolutely indespensable.
I do not know Sibelius or Bruckner, so there I cannot claim that Harry is mistaken!
Of course one's own top 5 will depend to a great deal on one's own favourite repertoire, so, with a regretful glance at some of his orchestral Strauss, Tchaikovsky, Sibelius, Debussy's La Mer (1st DG recording), I nominate
Verdi: Il Trovatore (with Callas)
Puccini: Madama Butterfly (with Callas)
R. Strauss: Der Rosenkavalier (with Schwarzkopf)
Verdi: Falstaff (with Gobbi)
Wagner: The Ring
That still leaves out alot of other great opera recordings, but the above would be my top 5.
Of the ones I've heard and can remember here are som top choices:
- Bruckner 7, VPO (DG)
- Bruckner 5, BPO (DG)
- Beethoven 5, 1963, BPO (DG)
- Shostakovich 10, BPO (DG)
- Dvorak Cello Concerto, Rostropovich (DG)
- Schumann 4, SD or VPO (DG)
Only five is tough because Herbie is my favorite conductor of opera and he recorded a ton of opera for EMI, DG and Decca. I love almost everything I've heard so far (yes, even his DG Don Giovanni ;D )
Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelungen
Wagner: Tristan und Isolde (with Jon Vickers and Helga Dernesch)
Debussy: Pélleas et Mélisande
Bruckner: Symphony #4 (EMI)
Schönberg: Pelleas und Melisande
Sarge
P.S. I have to mention this one too: Donizetti Lucia di Lammermoor, the live 1955 Berlin performance with Callas. So good it makes you utterly forget the wretched sound.
Prokofiev's 5th on DG;
Schoenberg's Verklarkte Nacht on DG;
R. Strauss' Ariadne auf Naxos on EMI;
Verdi's Aida on Decca;
Mussorgsky/Ravel: Pictures at an Exhibition on EMI.
Wagner - Parsifal
Strauss - Four Last Songs, Metamorphosen, Death and Transfiguration
Beethoven - Violin Concerto (with Christian Ferras)
Honegger - Symphonies 2 & 3
Sibelius - Symphonies 4-7, Tapiola
All on DG
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 31, 2008, 04:18:32 AM
P.S. I have to mention this one too: Donizetti Lucia di Lammermoor, the live 1955 Berlin performance with Callas. So good it makes you utterly forget the wretched sound.
I couldn't agree more. I only left it out of my top 5 because it was live, and didn't receive an official release until released by EMI in 1990.
Though I owned a ton of Karajan performances years ago, I eventually purged most of Herbie's recordings from the collection. It wasn't really a "hate the guy" thing--I just went through a period of NOT liking his approach to a number of orchestral pieces (e.g., his DGG Rossini overtures sound humorless to my ears and the Beethoven sym. 6 from his early '60s cycle still makes me cringe), disliking the artificial sonics of a large number of his later (post-1970) recordings, or simply preferring other conductors. Still, when the guy is "on" he's amazing, so there were a few items that I could never get rid of. These included:
Schoenberg: Verklaerte Nacht.
Though I usually dislike HvK's "blenderized" orchestral presentation--prettifying things or smoothing out too many edges--in this case it makes the piece totally different from its chamber ensemble form, and I find it a beautiful and interesting alternative.
Sibelius: sym. 5.
This is his EMI recording, not the DGG.
Beethoven: Missa Solemnis.
Don't care for the DGG version but his early stereo recording on EMI is just amazingly appealing to my ears. I understand there's a mono late-1940s version that Karajan did which some people think is even more impressive, but haven't yet been able to hear that one.
Assorted concerti with Brain (Mozart horn concerti), Lipatti (Schumann piano cto), Gieseking (assorted Beethoven, Grieg, other piano cti) and others.
Puccini: La Boheme.
This Decca set (I have it on original vinyl) is simply astounding as a performance and a recording. Having a youngish Pavarotti in fine voice doesn't hurt, either. I'm NOT an opera fan at all, but this performance just sucked me in--and I have to give credit to Karajan for a beautifully pointed and powerful presentation.
Beethoven: symphonies (early '60s DGG).
This was my first set of Beethoven symphonies and it's very fine indeed...but NOT without flaws: the 6th is a total stinker IMO, and in movements i and ii of symphony 9 speed demons Herbie and the Berlin players get almost dangerously out of sync with each other (to an extent that I find annoying after listening for so many years to this otherwise superb performance--and I find it odd that almost no one else points this out when writing about the recording). Almost everything else in the set is admirable, but you'll decide for yourself whether you find them "great" or simply "very good." I personally tend toward the latter evaluation.
Brahms: symphonies (early '60s DGG).
Confession--the very first time I heard these was about three weeks ago! I found a tulip-label LP set and decided to finally listen to what Herbie could do with Brahms in his somewhat younger years. I'd heard Brahms recordings he'd made in the 1970s (I think) and didn't care for them, but in these '60s performances, phrasing, speed, orchestral balance, everything is beautifully done. I'm not yet ready to declare these "great" but I wouldn't be surprised if I eventually came to that conclusion--they DID impress me. I especially like 2 and 3. However, I have minor sonic clarity issues with the particular DGG transfers on the set, so I'll look for other LP pressings or for CD transfers of these.
FWIW,
Dirk
P.S. I just noticed that Todd recommended Karajan's Wagner Parsifal. Though I haven't heard this all the way through, I HAVE heard excerpts and yes, it is quite beautiful.
- Beethoven 5, 1963, BPO (DG)
- Shostakovich 10, BPO (DG)
definitely
i add his 60's bruckner 9 (with one tiny reservation regarding not enough horn for me in one small spot), the 60's beethoven 9, and the brahms 1.
dj
Quote from: Harry on January 31, 2008, 01:26:22 AM
Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 2. Sixties.
Brahms, Symphony No. 1, Seventies.
Bruckner Symphony No 8.
Sibelius Symphony No. 4.
Straus, Metamorphosen
All DGG
Both Bruckner 8 and Strauss Metamorphosen were recorded more than once for DGG by Karajan, Bruckner 8 in 1975 and 1988, Metamorphosen in 1970 and 1981 (dates approximate).
There are few things where I feel what Karajan does couldn't be done more compellingly and musically more revealingly by someone else, but three recordings of his that are certainly superlative are:
- Mendelssohn Symphonies 3 & 4, BPO/DG. Great flair and elan, wonderful pulse. The Berliners play like gods.
- Strauss 4 letzte Lieder, BPO/Janowitz. I love this mostly for Janowitz's otherworldly voice. But Karajan gets the Berliners to lay out a sumptuous red carpet for Janowitz to just float upon. I don't like "best of" lists, but I have yet to hear a recording of these works that is on a par.
- Humperdinck, Hänsel und Gretel, Philharmonia/EMI. This opera is an underrated, if anachronistic, German romantic gem. Too few treat it with the dignity it deserves. Karajan does here, and it's magical. A stellar cast of singers helps.
Quote from: head-case on January 31, 2008, 08:20:41 AM
Both Bruckner 8 and Strauss Metamorphosen were recorded more than once for DGG by Karajan, Bruckner 8 in 1975 and 1988, Metamorphosen in 1970 and 1981 (dates approximate).
I meant for the Bruckner 1975 and for the Strauss 1981.
I find his Mahler 5 and 6 superlative.
Quote from: O Mensch on January 31, 2008, 08:38:09 AM
- Strauss 4 letzte Lieder, BPO/Janowitz. I love this mostly for Janowitz's otherworldly voice. But Karajan gets the Berliners to lay out a sumptuous red carpet for Janowitz to just float upon. I don't like "best of" lists, but I have yet to hear a recording of these works that is on a par.
.
That is certainly true.....
Strauss - Ariadne auf Naxos
Strauss - 4 Last Songs, Metamorphosen,Death and Transfiguration
Beethoven - All 9 symphonies
Haydn - Creation
Some I like:
Schumann - Symphony No.4 (Dresden '72 or Wiena '87 both live, both DG)
Strauss - New Year's Concert '87 (Wiena, live, DG)
Honegger - Symphony No.3 (Berlin '69, DG)
Mahler - Symphony No.9 (Berlin, '82 live, DG)
R.Strauss - Don Juan (Berlin '72, DG)
My favorites, of many:
R. Strauss: Four Last Songs, Tod und Verklärung, Metamorphosen
Bruckner: Symphony No. 8 (with Vienna)
Mahler: Symphony No. 6
Mahler: Symphony No. 9
Berg/Schoenberg/Webern: Orchestral Works
--Bruce
Beethoven 5, 1970's Best I've ever heard
Brahms 1, 1960s
Strauss Metamorphosen/Death & Transfiguration 1970s
Wagner Parsifal (or the orchestral pieces on EMI, can't decide)
Bach Mass in B Minor 1970s (yes, I know, a guilty pleasure ;D)
Beethoven Sym #5- BPO.DGG/1963
Beethoven Sym #9- BPO/DGG/1963
Bruckner- Sym #8 - VPO/DGG/1988
Verdi - Requiem - DVD ONLY/DGG/Scala Orch/ Price Cossoto, Pavarotti. Ghiarouv
Sibelius- Sym #2 - EMI/ Philharmonia Orch / Sometime in the 50s
Symphonies with BPO, except Bruckner 7 with VPO.
Brahms 1 - 4 (1963)
Bruckner 4 (1970)
Bruckner 7 (1989)
Bruckner 9 (1966)
Mahler 9 (1979/80)
BRUCKNER 8 with VPO on DGG
BEETHOVEN 1-9 with BPO on DGG (63, 77, whatever)
MAHLER 9 with BPO on DGG
STRAUSS tone poems (like also sparch, don juan, etc) with BPO on DGG
y'know, basically the KARJAN GOLD stuff.
Among other favorites, I chose:
Beethoven: 5th Symphony with the BPO (1977)
Sibelius: 4th Symphony (BPO)
Richard Strauss: Don Quixotte, with Rostropovitch and the BPO
Verdi: Falstaff (with Gobbi and Schwarzkopf)
Wagner: Das Rheingold (with Fischer-Dieskau)
In no order:
1. Schoenberg/Berg/Webern - Orchestral Works
2. Bartok: Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta (DGG)
3. Rachmaninov: Piano Concerto no.2 with Alexis Weissenberg (video by Unitel)
4. Grieg: Piano Concerto with Krystian Zimerman
5. Bruckner: Symphony no 4 (EMI)
Since I'm here for a moment, I think posting here is nigh-mandatory for me. ;)
In no strict order:
Mahler: Symphony No. 9 (Live recording, BPO)
Bruckner: Symphony No. 7 (Live recording, VPO)
Brahms: Ein Deutsches Requiem (1947, VPO)
R. Strauss: Eine Alpensinfonie (BPO, Karajan Gold)
Grieg: Peer Gynt Suites, Holberg Suite / Sibelius: Valse Triste, The Swan of Tuonela, Finlandia (BPO, Karajan Gold)
Of course, I didn't count any box sets, or it would be cheating. :P
Bruckner's 5th, 7th (both on EMI)
Beethoven's 6th, (DG, 1963)
Dvorak's Cello Concerto
Brahms, Ein Deutches Requiem
Quote from: Renfield on February 03, 2008, 07:54:39 PM
Bruckner: Symphony No. 7 (Live recording, VPO)
Which recording is that? Where is it available?
Quote from: Renfield on February 03, 2008, 07:54:39 PM
R. Strauss: Eine Alpensinfonie (BPO, Karajan Gold)
That is one of the worst Karajan recordings. The way they recorded that does not reflect what it sounded like live with him *at all*, not even remotely, not even as a "miniature". It just sounds completely nasty, at times blary and glary, at times muddy and foggy. A completely failed attempt to make this recording, the very first DG did for release on CD, really "spectacular". With disastrous results. The "Gold" remastering sounds *a little* better, but it is only superficial remastering and sweetening and doesn't address any of the many fundamental problems with this recording. They should have completely remixed that, if that would have saved anything. Fortunately, there is a video of a live performance which is much better and also available on DVD. Forget the DG disc.
Quote from: M forever on February 03, 2008, 10:25:21 PM
That is one of the worst Karajan recordings. The way they recorded that does not reflect what it sounded like live with him *at all*, not even remotely, not even as a "miniature". It just sounds completely nasty, at times blary and glary, at times muddy and foggy. A completely failed attempt to make this recording, the very first DG did for release on CD, really "spectacular". With disastrous results. The "Gold" remastering sounds *a little* better, but it is only superficial remastering and sweetening and doesn't address any of the many fundamental problems with this recording. They should have completely remixed that, if that would have saved anything. Fortunately, there is a video of a live performance which is much better and also available on DVD. Forget the DG disc.
Wasn't that the first music CD ever released?
Quote from: M forever on February 03, 2008, 10:25:21 PM
Which recording is that? Where is it available?
It's the Karajan Gold I'm sure you know: if I'm not mistaken, it's a
live recording of Karajan's last conducting appearance; that, or I am simply mixing up his last live appearance with his last recording, which could also be the case. I'll check.
Quote from: M forever on February 03, 2008, 10:25:21 PM
That is one of the worst Karajan recordings. The way they recorded that does not reflect what it sounded like live with him *at all*, not even remotely, not even as a "miniature". It just sounds completely nasty, at times blary and glary, at times muddy and foggy. A completely failed attempt to make this recording, the very first DG did for release on CD, really "spectacular". With disastrous results. The "Gold" remastering sounds *a little* better, but it is only superficial remastering and sweetening and doesn't address any of the many fundamental problems with this recording. They should have completely remixed that, if that would have saved anything. Fortunately, there is a video of a live performance which is much better and also available on DVD. Forget the DG disc.
I know the recording isn't that good sound-wise, and I have heard (and own both the old and new versions of) the DVD. However, it's still the only Karajan Alpensinfonie on CD, and it is to my ears an awe-inspiring testament nonetheless.
If I was to go for performance
and recording, I'd probably switch this with either of the late couple of "Zarathustras", or more likley the Tod und Verklärung / Metamorphosen coupling. Certainly, though, I would have a Strauss recording in the above list.
In fact, if sound is to be considered an issue, suppose the Deutsches Requiem doesn't fit the bill, either; but that's staying, absolutely. ;)
Brian: I think that was a Zauberflöte, but not Karajan's.
Quote from: Renfield on February 03, 2008, 11:49:23 PM
It's the Karajan Gold I'm sure you know: if I'm not mistaken, it's a live recording of Karajan's last conducting appearance; that, or I am simply mixing up his last live appearance with his last recording, which could also be the case. I'll check.
I know the recording isn't that good sound-wise, and I have heard (and own both the old and new versions of) the DVD. However, it's still the only Karajan Alpensinfonie on CD, and it is to my ears an awe-inspiring testament nonetheless.
I would second that,
Renfield. The quality of the audio reproduction is hardly first-rate, but it remains the only Karajan recording of this piece on disc, and I would hardly want to be without it.
Quote from: Renfield on February 03, 2008, 11:49:23 PM
Brian: I think that was a Zauberflöte, but not Karajan's.
A quick Google search indicates mixed signals; some folks say Karajan's Alpine Symphony was the first CD to be produced, but some say it was an ABBA album. :P ;D
Quote from: Brian on February 04, 2008, 08:45:52 AM
A quick Google search indicates mixed signals; some folks say Karajan's Alpine Symphony was the first CD to be produced, but some say it was an ABBA album. :P ;D
Oh yes!
CD!My apologies, I was thinking of "digital recording". My bad; and I think that yes, you might be right. :)
Quote from: dirkronk on January 31, 2008, 07:52:39 AM
Puccini: La Boheme.
This Decca set (I have it on original vinyl) is simply astounding as a performance and a recording. Having a youngish Pavarotti in fine voice doesn't hurt, either. I'm NOT an opera fan at all, but this performance just sucked me in--and I have to give credit to Karajan for a beautifully pointed and powerful presentation.
Agree completely. The only reason Puccini didn't make my list is because I could not decide which to pick: Karajan's Butterfly, Turandot or Bohème (love his Tosca too but Callas/Gobbi/De Sabata rule here).
Sarge
Quote from: Renfield on February 04, 2008, 08:51:51 AM
Oh yes! CD!
My apologies, I was thinking of "digital recording". My bad; and I think that yes, you might be right. :)
Alpine symphony the first digital recording??? The Karajan Alpine was first released on LP record back in the days when record companies about making digital masters for their LPs. It's catalog number was 2532 015, implying it was the 15th digital recording in the catalog. (I still remember how the catalog numbers were incremented from 2531 to 2532 when they started producing digital recordings.) In any case, Decca had been making digital recordings for about two years by then, and Denon had been making commercial digital recordings from the mid 1970's. I believe the first digital recording project for DGG was Karajan's Zauberflote.
Whether the Alpine was the first release by Polygram classics I do not know. I still have a copy of the original edition of the Alpine (the one in which the entire thing was one long track). I'll check to see what the catalog number (the first release would be 400 001).
Quote from: head-case on February 04, 2008, 11:52:59 AM
Alpine symphony the first digital recording??? The Karajan Alpine was first released on LP record back in the days when record companies about making digital masters for their LPs. It's catalog number was 2532 015, implying it was the 15th digital recording in the catalog. (I still remember how the catalog numbers were incremented from 2531 to 2532 when they started producing digital recordings.) In any case, Decca had been making digital recordings for about two years by then, and Denon had been making commercial digital recordings from the mid 1970's. I believe the first digital recording project for DGG was Karajan's Zauberflote.
Whether the Alpine was the first release by Polygram classics I do not know. I still have a copy of the original edition of the Alpine (the one in which the entire thing was one long track). I'll check to see what the catalog number (the first release would be 400 001).
Re-read my above posts, I was referring to the Zauberflöte; and I'm almost certain it wasn't Karajan's, the first one - although Karajan's own first digital recording was almost certainly a Zauberflöte. :)
Karajan's Alpensinfonie was not the first digital recording in general. Digital recordings had been made for a number of years (since the early 70s, but I don't recall the details right now about who made the first and when - I think NHK were the first, but I am not sure right now) before the technology got more widely used by bigger labels. It wasn't the first "classical" digital recording either (the first one I can think of was some EMI recording with Previn of French repertoire, Ravel or Debussy). It may not even have been DG's first digital recording. But it was definitely their first CD release. I still remember very well how they plastered the big record stores in Berlin wall-to-wall with those CDs.
Anyway, take it from me as someone who has heard the Alpensinfonie twice live with HvK, this recording is *not* a testament of how good Karajan's Strauss was - unfortunately, but that's the way it is. Very sad actually because the concerts were indescribable experiences - sure, live concerts are always better than listening to a recording even on the best sound system, but they can still reproduce a musical performance reasonably convincingly in miniature. But this one doesn't, not even close. A much better testament of Karajan's late Strauss is the Don Quixote they recorded in 1985 or 86 or so. I also heard those concerts live, and the CD represents what that was like much better than that of the Alpensinfonie.
Quote from: Renfield on February 03, 2008, 11:49:23 PM
It's the Karajan Gold I'm sure you know: if I'm not mistaken, it's a live recording of Karajan's last conducting appearance; that, or I am simply mixing up his last live appearance with his last recording, which could also be the case. I'll check.
It was his last recording, but it was not his last appearance in concert nor was it live. It was filmed to make it look like a live concert, but it wasn't. Some of the DVDs with films from the 80s are actual live concerts (e.g. the Alpensinfonie I mentioned, and some others, like Also sprach Zarathustra), but most of them were studio productions with extras as "audience". I was an extra in the filming of the Beethoven 9 which was great because we got paid to sit there and watch them record the music, and we also got to witness the rehearsals for that production which was highly interesting. As a general rule, all of the films which also came out as recordings on DG were actually studio recordings (an exception is the Mahler 9 but that wasn't filmed anyway, unfortunately). You can always tell when it says "Soundtrack for a Telemondial Production" on the back of the CD. Then it was one of those film productions.
Quote from: M forever on February 04, 2008, 09:40:37 PM
Karajan's Alpensinfonie was not the first digital recording in general. Digital recordings had been made for a number of years (since the early 70s, but I don't recall the details right now about who made the first and when - I think NHK were the first, but I am not sure right now) before the technology got more widely used by bigger labels. It wasn't the first "classical" digital recording either (the first one I can think of was some EMI recording with Previn of French repertoire, Ravel or Debussy). It may not even have been DG's first digital recording. But it was definitely their first CD release. I still remember very well how they plastered the big record stores in Berlin wall-to-wall with those CDs.
Anyway, take it from me as someone who has heard the Alpensinfonie twice live with HvK, this recording is *not* a testament of how good Karajan's Strauss was - unfortunately, but that's the way it is. Very sad actually because the concerts were indescribable experiences - sure, live concerts are always better than listening to a recording even on the best sound system, but they can still reproduce a musical performance reasonably convincingly in miniature. But this one doesn't, not even close. A much better testament of Karajan's late Strauss is the Don Quixote they recorded in 1985 or 86 or so. I also heard those concerts live, and the CD represents what that was like much better than that of the Alpensinfonie.
Fair enough, concerning whether that CD represents Karajan's reading to any satisfactory degree; but I still like it. :)
As for the first digital recording, or rather
DG's first digital recording, now that I think on it, I am still rather certain it was a Mozart Zauberflöte, perhaps by Levine. And Karajan's
own first digital recording was
also a Zauberflöte if memory serves, as I said above. But the Alpensinfonie was, as you pointed out, the first Karajan
CD.
My apologies if I added to the mix-up.
Quote from: M forever on February 04, 2008, 09:40:37 PM
It was his last recording, but it was not his last appearance in concert nor was it live. It was filmed to make it look like a live concert, but it wasn't. Some of the DVDs with films from the 80s are actual live concerts (e.g. the Alpensinfonie I mentioned, and some others, like Also sprach Zarathustra), but most of them were studio productions with extras as "audience". I was an extra in the filming of the Beethoven 9 which was great because we got paid to sit there and watch them record the music, and we also got to witness the rehearsals for that production which was highly interesting. As a general rule, all of the films which also came out as recordings on DG were actually studio recordings (an exception is the Mahler 9 but that wasn't filmed anyway, unfortunately). You can always tell when it says "Soundtrack for a Telemondial Production" on the back of the CD. Then it was one of those film productions.
Thank you for the clarification. The whole notion of "as live", "almost like live", "somewhat like live", etc. (obviously exaggerated for comedic effect) is not one that's easy for me to grasp, not having been much around in the early 80's, when I wasn't born yet. ;)
speaking of Strauss, how is this one? I am still deciding whether to buy it or not
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411S1N2EQPL._AA240_.jpg)
This is a Karajan thread! Well, anyway; I have those recordings and enjoy them a great deal. The sound is not as open and forward as I like in Strauss; but the conducting is first rate. He combines architecture and thrust and brings out detail without dallying. Buying the box gave me some pieces I would probably never otherwise have got round to buying.
Now....Karajan, top five discs? Too many to narrow it down to that extent. But here are five I would never want to be without, I can supply groups of further choices for some time to come
Haydn Creation, (Studio recording)
Tristan Vickers/Dernsch
Verdi Requiem DVD Pavarotti/Price
Brahms Sym no 1 BPO
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511NbqK9gPL._AA240_.jpg)
Bruckner 5th BPO
Mike
Having originally plumped for 5 opera sets, I'm now going to cheat and go for 5 in other fields
Debussy: La Mer/Prelude & Ravel: Daphnis & Chloe (DG 1965)
Sibelius: Symphony no 4 (DG)
Mahler: Symphony no 6
Mahler: Symphony no 9 (DG live)
R Strauss: Tod und Verklaerung and Metamorphosen (DG 1983)
Debussy: La Mer/Prelude & Ravel: Daphnis & Chloe (DG 1965)
Oh, yes, how could that one not have been at the top of my list.
Mike
Debussy: La Mer (DG)
Prokofiev: Symphony No.5
Mahler: Symphony 9 (live)
I'm only putting three because I've yet to hear his Sibelius Symphony No.4 (DG) or his first recording of Shostakovich Symphony No.10. I've heard great things about these recordings and I'm sure I'd want to include them.
Recordings that I have heard that I rate:
Mahler: Symphony No.6 (although it's a bit civil)
Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition (the '60s recording, not the remake)
Tschaikovsky: Symphony No.6 ('60s again)
Stravinsky: The Rite of Spring (the '70s remake, not the weird '60s recording. The remake is far from being my favourite Rite, but it's a fascinating and at times impressive performance)
Quote from: Renfield on February 04, 2008, 10:05:14 PM
As for the first digital recording, or rather DG's first digital recording, now that I think on it, I am still rather certain it was a Mozart Zauberflöte, perhaps by Levine. And Karajan's own first digital recording was also a Zauberflöte if memory serves, as I said above. But the Alpensinfonie was, as you pointed out, the first Karajan CD.
It is quite irritating to have you apologize for being late in posting
incorrect information. 8) The first digital recording by DG was Karajan's Zauberflote, which was recorded in January 1980 and released on LP. This fact is mentioned by Sony in their biographical sketch for Karajan.
http://www.sonyclassical.com/artists/karajan/bio.html
I owned this particular recording on LP, and it sounded awful.
Whether Karajan's Alpine was the first CD, I can't off any direct evidence, except that the catalog number of the original CD edition (which I still have) was 400 039-2, implying it was the 39th CD release by polygram. (The original LP edition was 2532 015) I have numerous DG and other polygram CD's with earlier catalog numbers, including at Karajan/Mutter Bruch violin concerto, which is 400 031-2, Karajan's Berlin Planets (400 028-2) , Karajan, Strauss Waltzes (400 026-2) Kondrashin/Scheherazade (400 021-2), Mozart Piano Concerto with Brendel (400 018-2). My recollection is that Karajan's Alpine was marketed as a supposedly audiophile recording upon its original release on LP. I agree that from an engineering standpoint it was a botch. Good that we have the Sony video.
Quote from: head-case on February 05, 2008, 08:26:16 AMI have numerous DG and other polygram CD's with earlier catalog numbers, including at Karajan/Mutter Bruch violin concerto, which is 400 031-2, Karajan's Berlin Planets (400 028-2) , Karajan, Strauss Waltzes (400 026-2) Kondrashin/Scheherazade (400 021-2), Mozart Piano Concerto with Brendel (400 018-2).
The release of early CDs doesn't always coincide with the assurance that the original recordings were digital, if that's of any importance to you. The Kondrashin/COA Scheherazade, for example, was an analog recording but was chosen over other digital recordings of the same work for its first Polygram appearance on CD simply because the performance was judged to be a superior one. Or so say contemporary sources, including the Penguin fellows.
;)
Dirk
Quote from: dirkronk on February 05, 2008, 09:26:43 AM
The release of early CDs doesn't always coincide with the assurance that the original recordings were digital, if that's of any importance to you. The Kondrashin/COA Scheherazade, for example, was an analog recording but was chosen over other digital recordings of the same work for its first Polygram appearance on CD simply because the performance was judged to be a superior one. Or so say contemporary sources, including the Penguin fellows.
;)
Dirk
That is quite right. I did not mean to imply that there is a well defined relationship between CD catalog numbers and original recording dates, especially since the first digital recordings were initially issued on LP. My assumption is that the catalog numbers correlate with the order in which the CDs themselves were issued.
Quote from: head-case on February 05, 2008, 08:26:16 AM
It is quite irritating to have you apologize for being late in posting incorrect information. 8) The first digital recording by DG was Karajan's Zauberflote, which was recorded in January 1980 and released on LP. This fact is mentioned by Sony in their biographical sketch for Karajan.
http://www.sonyclassical.com/artists/karajan/bio.html
I owned this particular recording on LP, and it sounded awful.
Whether Karajan's Alpine was the first CD, I can't off any direct evidence, except that the catalog number of the original CD edition (which I still have) was 400 039-2, implying it was the 39th CD release by polygram. (The original LP edition was 2532 015) I have numerous DG and other polygram CD's with earlier catalog numbers, including at Karajan/Mutter Bruch violin concerto, which is 400 031-2, Karajan's Berlin Planets (400 028-2) , Karajan, Strauss Waltzes (400 026-2) Kondrashin/Scheherazade (400 021-2), Mozart Piano Concerto with Brendel (400 018-2). My recollection is that Karajan's Alpine was marketed as a supposedly audiophile recording upon its original release on LP. I agree that from an engineering standpoint it was a botch. Good that we have the Sony video.
And that proves the important of one checking one's sources. I suppose the fact that I was slightly irrate with how unclear and "terminologically muddled" this whole discussion was had a hand in it, as well. ::)
Further apologies, then. And let me confirm that:
a) Apparently,
the first digital recording issued by DG was indeed
Karajan's Zauberflöte. What I am suspecting is the source of my confusion is the fact that another Zauberflöte, not necessarily digital or on CD, came out at that time (or close to it), since I do remember Richard Osborne saying how Karajan's wasn't better than that, which made me feel at least that "historical first" was wasted.
b) I have no evidence that Karajan's "Alpensinfonie" was the first CD DG issued, bar perhaps a few comments from this forum, at an earlier time. So perhaps it was, perhaps it wasn't - either way, I don't know, and I wasn't around back then to remember.
c) I still like the CD version of "Ein Alpensinfonie", and do not find it horribly engineered, aurally mutilated, or a "botch". It's not a recording triumph, it's not representative of what they theoretically could have achieved, perhaps, but I'll still take it over any other recording I've heard
on CD, wonderful as later ones might be (see: Wit).
Then again, concerning this last point, I like Karajan's last Beethoven cycle, and even the recording of the 9th symphony in it; something which I am aware approaches a taboo, so perhaps my taste is simply skewed, bad, or downright odd. Either way, I'll stick with it. :)
Quote from: Renfield on February 06, 2008, 12:13:10 AM
b) I have no evidence that Karajan's "Alpensinfonie" was the first CD DG issued, bar perhaps a few comments from this forum, at an earlier time. So perhaps it was, perhaps it wasn't - either way, I don't know, and I wasn't around back then to remember.
You weren't around to hear them play that live either, I assume. It's not that likely then that you have ever heard that piece played by any really good orchestra in a good hall - have you ever actually heard that live?
I don't specifically remember if it really was the first CD DG released, but I remember specifically that they made a lot of fuss about it. There was a press conference with Karajan in which he goofed around with the CD, peeped through the hole in the middle, stuck his finger through it and rotated it around (actually pretty silly all that). On the old DG website, there was a company history section which IIRC mentioned that it was actually their first CD release - but that section doesn't seem to be included in the new website (yet?).
Quote from: Renfield on February 06, 2008, 12:13:10 AM
c) I still like the CD version of "Ein Alpensinfonie", and do not find it horribly engineered, aurally mutilated, or a "botch". It's not a recording triumph, it's not representative of what they theoretically could have achieved, perhaps, but I'll still take it over any other recording I've heard on CD, wonderful as later ones might be (see: Wit).
We are all happy for you that you draw so much pleasure from that CD, and nobody wants (or could) take that away from you. However, if you don't hear how bad the engineering is, then you really don't have well developed aural and musical perception. I would even go as far as saying that it may be the worst sounding Alpensinfonie recording I have ever heard (apart from obviously "historical" ones such as Fried, Strauss, Böhm) . Unfortunately, the very special quality of sound Karajan achieved with the BP especially in this piece was maybe the main strongpoint of his interpretation. It was huge and rich, but also very nuanced and it had an incredible sense of balance and fine detail even on that scale. It also had some kind of "inner glow", it sounded as if the music simply happened, formed itself fro pure sound matter. None of that really comes across in the flat, blary, harsh and muddy recording. I especially lament the lack of fine detail in the quieter passages - the bigger passages can only be captured "scaled down" anyway.
There are a lot of recordings which sound much better, in many different ways, and probably also musically better ones - and I am saying that as someone for whom those live performances were among the greatest musical experiences I ever had as a listener.
Actually, the recording made by Sony with Mehta a few years later, while still a little on the harsh and bright side, represents what the BP sounded like under Karajan much better than his own recording. Mehta didn't mess much with the interpretation anyway. He basically just triggered the orchestra and they played it more or less the same way they had played it under Karajan. Except that Mehta couldn't sustain the long line as well as Karajan did - which shows that beyond rehearsing a piece meticulously (and Karajan rehearsed it a lot with them), it still makes a difference in the concert who is actually waving the stick.
Quote from: Renfield on February 06, 2008, 12:13:10 AM
Then again, concerning this last point, I like Karajan's last Beethoven cycle, and even the recording of the 9th symphony in it; something which I am aware approaches a taboo, so perhaps my taste is simply skewed, bad, or downright odd. Either way, I'll stick with it. :)
That last cycle was basically completely superfluous. Live (and I heard those performances live around the time they made the recordings, too, I was actually in the sessions for the 9th) that sounded much more like the 70s cycle. They did a much better job at capturing the sound of that back then. You get a much better and realistic idea of Karajan's late Beethoven from the 70s cycle and from the 1982 video of the Eroica.
Quote from: M forever on February 06, 2008, 10:45:09 PM
We are all happy for you that you draw so much pleasure from that CD, and nobody wants (or could) take that away from you. However, if you don't hear how bad the engineering is, then you really don't have well developed aural and musical perception. I would even go as far as saying that it may be the worst sounding Alpensinfonie recording I have ever heard (apart from obviously "historical" ones such as Fried, Strauss, Böhm) . Unfortunately, the very special quality of sound Karajan achieved with the BP especially in this piece was maybe the main strongpoint of his interpretation. It was huge and rich, but also very nuanced and it had an incredible sense of balance and fine detail even on that scale. It also had some kind of "inner glow", it sounded as if the music simply happened, formed itself fro pure sound matter. None of that really comes across in the flat, blary, harsh and muddy recording. I especially lament the lack of fine detail in the quieter passages - the bigger passages can only be captured "scaled down" anyway.
There are a lot of recordings which sound much better, in many different ways, and probably also musically better ones - and I am saying that as someone for whom those live performances were among the greatest musical experiences I ever had as a listener.
You are still assuming I think the CD is well-recorded, which I am not. However, I
personally compare compact disc audio quality in a continuum from that of the earliest orchestral recording in my collection (late 1920's), to the present day.
More specifically here, I also think you are overlooking the fact that I am not looking to hear Karajan's live reading "in a can". I am simply listening to what there is to listen, and say I prefer it to other
recordings of Eine Alpensinfonie.
Therefore, my having listened to it live or not (which indeed I haven't) has little to do with how I personally evaluate this recording under my current approach.
If at some point in the future I decide that my recordings are important only as "something-that-approaches-a-live-concert-but-is-not-quite-there", and after I throw away most of them as a result, I will perhaps have reason to make this comparison.
Until then, I will visit the concert hall when I want to hear live music, and for recordings I will stay at home; "apples and oranges". And to be more on-topic, I never mentioned "audio quality" in any shape or form as a criterion. Otherwise, the Brahms (see my list) would also be redundant, would it not? :)
Quote from: M forever on February 06, 2008, 10:45:09 PM
You weren't around to hear them play that live either, I assume. It's not that likely then that you have ever heard that piece played by any really good orchestra in a good hall - have you ever actually heard that live?
I don't specifically remember if it really was the first CD DG released, but I remember specifically that they made a lot of fuss about it. There was a press conference with Karajan in which he goofed around with the CD, peeped through the hole in the middle, stuck his finger through it and rotated it around (actually pretty silly all that). On the old DG website, there was a company history section which IIRC mentioned that it was actually their first CD release - but that section doesn't seem to be included in the new website (yet?).
The DG web site does have a page says that "Deutsche Grammophon was the first to enter the market, when Herbert von Karajan recorded Richard Strauss's 'Eine Alpensinfonie' with the Berlin Philharmonic in 1981 - the first classical work to find its way on to compact disc."
http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/about/aboutdgg4.htms?PAGE=page4
It seems to me this claim is marketing hype. How could they have "entered the market" by making a recording in 1981 when the first CDs were manufactured in August 1982 (before there were any players available to the public) and when DG had been making digital recordings for a year before the Alpine was recorded? The catalog numbers imply that if the Alpine was issued first, it was among at least 38 other releases.
I am not a great admirer of Karajan but my favourites are:
Honegger symphonies 2 and (especially) 3 "Liturgique" (an unrivalled performance)
Sibelius Tapiola (DGG)
Sibelius Symphony 4 (DGG)
Shostakovich Symphony 10 (earlier DGG version)
Havergal Brian's "Gothic Symphony" (hahaha) ;D
You did get me to do a double take there.
I will now add.....
The earlier Bach B minor Mass on EMI, fleet and cristaline, nothing like the later soup.
The earlier Rosenkavalier, EMI.
Beethoven Missa Solemnis DGG, Janowitz, Ludwig, Wunderlich, Berry.
Puccini Tosca, Decca Leontine Price.
Mike
Seven come to mind:
Bruckner No. 4 (EMI-'71)
Tchaikovsky Serenade for Strings (DG-'81)
Beethoven Symphony No. 1 (DG-'62/'63)
Grieg From Holberg's Time (DG-'82)
Honegger Symphonies No. 2 and 3 (DG-'72/'73)
Beethoven Symphony No. 5 (DG-'62/'63)
Rossini William Tell Overture (DG-'84)
Quote from: vandermolen on February 09, 2008, 12:14:46 AM
I am not a great admirer of Karajan but my favourites are:
Honegger symphonies 2 and (especially) 3 "Liturgique" (an unrivalled performance)
It aggravates me to this day that they played the "Liturgique" live with him in Berlin in 1984 or 85 or so and that wasn't recorded again even though in those last years, they recorded almost everything he did. That was an *extremely* impressive performance. After the intermission, they played Brahms 1, IIRC. Which *was* recorded around that time even though I don't know if it was at that occasion. By which I don't mean the actual concerts, since very few of the Karajan recordings DG made in those years (or indeed throughout all the time he worked with them) were live recordings (very, very unfortunately), they were all those silly studio productions which were recorded by DG and filmed by Telemondial and which were staged to look like live concerts even thought they were really studio productions. But those studio audio/video productions were typically combined with the live concerts in the way that they rehearsed and filmed/recorded all week and then played the program live on the weekends.
Quote from: head-case on February 07, 2008, 08:33:31 AM
The DG web site does have a page says that "Deutsche Grammophon was the first to enter the market, when Herbert von Karajan recorded Richard Strauss's 'Eine Alpensinfonie' with the Berlin Philharmonic in 1981 - the first classical work to find its way on to compact disc."
http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/about/aboutdgg4.htms?PAGE=page4
It seems to me this claim is marketing hype. How could they have "entered the market" by making a recording in 1981 when the first CDs were manufactured in August 1982 (before there were any players available to the public) and when DG had been making digital recordings for a year before the Alpine was recorded? The catalog numbers imply that if the Alpine was issued first, it was among at least 38 other releases.
How? Very simple. They made the recording in 1981 but only released it on CD a year or so later. Not at all unusual.
Quote from: Renfield on February 07, 2008, 01:51:12 AM
You are still assuming I think the CD is well-recorded, which I am not. However, I personally compare compact disc audio quality in a continuum from that of the earliest orchestral recording in my collection (late 1920's), to the present day.
Me too. But that recording also fares extremely badly when compared in the context of other roughly contemporary recordings of this or other roughly similar orchestral literature. It's just really bad by any standard.
Quote from: Renfield on February 07, 2008, 01:51:12 AM
More specifically here, I also think you are overlooking the fact that I am not looking to hear Karajan's live reading "in a can". I am simply listening to what there is to listen, and say I prefer it to other recordings of Eine Alpensinfonie.
Sorry to hear that! There are a lot of better recordings, definitely sonically and also musically. Karajan was a great Strauss conductor who was very aware of the "idiomatic" style of playing this music, as many of his very good Strauss recordings show. He also brought his very own type of and feeling for sound to the music. Strauss shouldn't be played like one big gooey sound sauce, but like complex chamber music with a lot of freedom and long musical lines. There is also a lot of fine inner detail and very nuanced textures - which Karajan brought out admirably in his performances and also in many of his recordings. Unfortunately that is not represented in this recording though, and that is why I dislike it so much because it is neither good Strauss in general nor good Karajan Strauss in particular. What was particularly impressive about Karajan's Strauss was that as much substance, weight and richness of sound it had, it was extremly finetuned and amazingly transparent. But in this recording, it is either a massive blaring block of sound (in louder passages) or a distant haze with very little fine detail definition in the softer passages. A real pity, especially considering how good that really was live, but also when compared just to other recordings with other interpreters.
It would be interesting to see how much of that could be saved if they went back to the original multitrack and remixed it from scratch instead of just superficially polishing it up a little like they did for the "Gold" edition (where they did tone down some of the more atrocious elements of the original release, like the horns blaring in your face as if they played on milk cans in the dotted passages in "Der Anstieg", to cite just one of many examples - a sonic insult to the horn section which really sounded great there and in many other places). But that's not going to happen - way too much work and too expensive...
Quote from: Renfield on February 07, 2008, 01:51:12 AM
If at some point in the future I decide that my recordings are important only as "something-that-approaches-a-live-concert-but-is-not-quite-there", and after I throw away most of them as a result, I will perhaps have reason to make this comparison.
How? You lack the live listening experience to make such a comparison. It is pretty obvious that you don't even understand what I am actually talking about.
Quote from: Renfield on February 07, 2008, 01:51:12 AM
Until then, I will visit the concert hall when I want to hear live music, and for recordings I will stay at home; "apples and oranges". And to be more on-topic, I never mentioned "audio quality" in any shape or form as a criterion. Otherwise, the Brahms (see my list) would also be redundant, would it not? :)
Not necessarily. Just because a recording sounds "historical" from a technical point of view, that doesn't mean that it can't be an effective recording in the way the available technical means were used to transport the musical content. Which is something that Karajan Alpensinfonie impressively demonstrates. They could have done so much better given what was available technically at the time. But they didn't. There is not more detail in this recording than in Böhm's 1956 mono recording. It may be in stereo and both the frequency range and dynamic may be much bigger, but when these parameters are used in such a bad way, that doesn't really matter much anymore anyway.
HvK was a great conductor but the vast majority of what he recorded I can find better versions of from other conductors and as a result I now have very little of HvK in my collection. There are exceptions and IMO these are
Rimsky-Korsakov; Scheherazade (only Stokowski excels him here)
Beethoven's 5th Symphony '77 but 63 is awesome as well.
Tchaikovksky Ballet Suites/VPO
Beethoven Overtures (Szell also does these well).
The jewel in HvK's crown, already mentioned by Iago (good call Mel), is the Verdi Requiem recorded in La Scala Milan as a film by Henri-Georges Clouzot in 1967 with a stellar cast of soloists. It's an absolutely stunning performance, far better than his other video of this work and is available on DVD. DGG should have released this as an audio CD but at 83 minutes they probably decided that splitting it onto two disc wasn't worth it - more's the pity.
Verdi (http://www.amazon.com/Verdi-Requiem-Pavarotti-Cossotto-Ghiaurov/dp/B0009DBXXQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1202630260&sr=1-1)
For me:
Sibelius 4
Bruckner 7
Parsifal
Strauss meta etc
Beet 7
Paul, That's the live Parsifal, I forget now, have you heard and compared the studio version with the live one?
Mike
Quote from: knight on February 10, 2008, 08:54:48 AM
Paul, That's the live Parsifal, I forget now, have you heard and compared the studio version with the live one?
Mike
Yes, live - I'ver never head the dudio version... costs too much right now. :(
I haven't shown you the diamond have I? ;)
Ah, do let me have news of the diamond.
Mike
Beethoven 9 Symphonien (1962)
Strauss Thus Spoke Zarathustra
Haydn The Creation
Mahler 6th and 9th Symphonies
Quote from: Haffner on February 10, 2008, 10:09:29 AM
Beethoven 9 Symphonien (1962)
Strauss Thus Spoke Zarathustra
Haydn The Creation
Mahler 6th and 9th Symphonies
He recorded Zarathustra three times (that I know of), the Creation three times (that I know of), and Mahler 9 twice.
Quote from: Renfield on February 07, 2008, 01:51:12 AM
You are still assuming I think the CD is well-recorded, which I am not. However, I personally compare compact disc audio quality in a continuum from that of the earliest orchestral recording in my collection (late 1920's), to the present day.
Quote from: M forever on February 09, 2008, 12:14:43 PM
Me too. But that recording also fares extremely badly when compared in the context of other roughly contemporary recordings of this or other roughly similar orchestral literature. It's just really bad by any standard. [...] There are a lot of better recordings, definitely sonically and also musically. Karajan was a great Strauss conductor who was very aware of the "idiomatic" style of playing this music, as many of his very good Strauss recordings show. He also brought his very own type of and feeling for sound to the music. Strauss shouldn't be played like one big gooey sound sauce, but like complex chamber music with a lot of freedom and long musical lines. There is also a lot of fine inner detail and very nuanced textures - which Karajan brought out admirably in his performances and also in many of his recordings. Unfortunately that is not represented in this recording though, and that is why I dislike it so much because it is neither good Strauss in general nor good Karajan Strauss in particular. What was particularly impressive about Karajan's Strauss was that as much substance, weight and richness of sound it had, it was extremly finetuned and amazingly transparent. But in this recording, it is either a massive blaring block of sound (in louder passages) or a distant haze with very little fine detail definition in the softer passages. A real pity, especially considering how good that really was live, but also when compared just to other recordings with other interpreters.
To begin with, a large part of your above view is based in strictly subjective criteria, yet your rejection of this recording has a rather objective sound to it. This is inconsistent, and bad argumentation, if I even need say that. How Strauss
should sound, only Strauss could have known.
But the main issue here is as follows:
Quote from: M forever on February 09, 2008, 12:14:43 PMYou lack the live listening experience to make such a comparison. It is pretty obvious that you don't even understand what I am actually talking about.
Actually, I offer the view that it is you who still does not understand my own point. I choose my words carefully, and reading them at least marginally as carefully often helps. Let me briefly elaborate...
Quote from: M forever on February 09, 2008, 12:14:43 PM
Just because a recording sounds "historical" from a technical point of view, that doesn't mean that it can't be an effective recording in the way the available technical means were used to transport the musical content. Which is something that Karajan Alpensinfonie impressively demonstrates. They could have done so much better given what was available technically at the time. But they didn't. There is not more detail in this recording than in Böhm's 1956 mono recording. It may be in stereo and both the frequency range and dynamic may be much bigger, but when these parameters are used in such a bad way, that doesn't really matter much anymore anyway.
You are arguing, here and in a previous quote, above, that a recording
should be compared within the context of only the group (or set) of its contemporary recordings, and then somehow also across the historical continuum, group-by-group.
I am arguing that I, personally,
me, compare recordings
across a historical continuum,
period. In other words, I do not care if piece X was recorded in 1950, 1990, or 1930, when comparing it against other recordings. And the reason is that I do not consider the recording and the recording's
aural presentation one and the same.
Now, I could elaborate that point, but I think we would end up with the following question:
"Is a recording only the sound you listen to, or is it a representation of a real event?"
And you know what's funny? I don't think it's either, but this is not the topic of this thread. So respectfully, I ask that we leave it at that. I do not question your erudition, nor your intelligence; but do consider whether some of us might listen to recordings for different reasons than yourself.
One more thing:
"If you play a live recording with sound as good as that of a live performance, and entirely faithful to the performance it was made to represent "on disc", would it be the same as the live performance itself?"
My answer here is "no". I've been repeating I consider live performances and recordings as distinct as the Mona Lisa from the woman in the picture: different entities, logical objects, entirely. I can't, and won't compare them, because there is nothing to compare. That is what I mean by "apples and oranges", even if they both are fruit (i.e. music).
So to sum up:
I hold that this Karajan recording, i.e. the "average" of the reading, the performance itself, the quality of the sound and the texture of the sound in this Karajan recording, satisfies me more than any other recording of this piece that I have heard.
If I were to pinpoint the reasons I like it, I would likely choose "reading", "performance", and overall aural texture, because I happen to enjoy the mystique it creates, in this specific disc. However, I am not claiming it is "as intended" for the piece - merely that I happen to like it, much like someone might like a "not as intended" imperfection in a work of art. Objectivity has no place in this, and the assumption that one lacks it because they might offer subjective criteria is ill-thought of at best, in my view.
Finally, live performances of the work and other such factors
do not have a place in this discussion at all, given how you are questioning the validity of my opinion as expressed under the basis that "live" and "recording" are not compatible. If you disagree with my opinion's basis, argue against
that.Likewise for what should
ideally have been done with it, which would be like saying Bruckner
should have lived to finish the 9th symphony; he didn't, end of story.
P.S. (Irrelevant)
head-case, there's at least one more Karajan "Zarathustra" from a live broadcast, that I'm aware of - pedantry, I know, but since you kept a tally... :P
Quote from: head-case on February 07, 2008, 08:33:31 AM
The DG web site does have a page says that "Deutsche Grammophon was the first to enter the market, when Herbert von Karajan recorded Richard Strauss's 'Eine Alpensinfonie' with the Berlin Philharmonic in 1981 - the first classical work to find its way on to compact disc."
http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/about/aboutdgg4.htms?PAGE=page4
It seems to me this claim is marketing hype. How could they have "entered the market" by making a recording in 1981 when the first CDs were manufactured in August 1982 (before there were any players available to the public) and when DG had been making digital recordings for a year before the Alpine was recorded? The catalog numbers imply that if the Alpine was issued first, it was among at least 38 other releases.
1982. CD pressing started in August, and CD Player sales, in October (priced at over 1,000 pounds sterling). About 150 CD titles, mostly classical, were available.
Several online sources seem to confirm that Abba's The Victors was the first CD pressed, and Karajan's "Alpine" the first classical recording pressed and released. It's generally thought that this honor went to Karajan for his strong advocacy of Compact Disc, and being that DG was a Polygram company, as were Philips and Decca.
For LPs, Denon in 1972 had the first commercial digital recording. Several others followed throughout the late 1970's, including Decca, EMI, Chandos. I do not know if Karajan's "Alpine" was on LP before CD.
My first CD player was a 3rd generation Philips, but I cannot remember the exact year (maybe 1985) or price (maybe $400). At the time, I was heavily into LPs and I was thrilled over the LP close-outs and their low prices.
By 1986 and 1987, CD selection and pricing became more attractive. Then through 1988 and 1989 was what's referred to as the golden CD sales era, because many were duplicating
by buying what they had on LP.
Hard to believe 20 years have shot by. I still love CDs. :-*
Quote from: BorisG on February 15, 2008, 01:36:10 PM
It's generally thought that this honor went to Karajan for his strong advocacy of Compact Disc, and being that DG was a Polygram company, as were Philips and Decca.
Were they all Polygram already at that time?
Some interesting info about Denon's 1972 recording I found googling the subject: http://sul2.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/arsclist/2007/11/msg00152.html
Quote from: M forever on February 15, 2008, 01:45:23 PM
Were they all Polygram already at that time?
Some interesting info about Denon's 1972 recording I found googling the subject: http://sul2.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/arsclist/2007/11/msg00152.html
Polygram (Philips essentially) became fully operational with DG in 1977, and bought Decca in 1979.
I think Denon seriously looked at the possibility of 1970 being the digital starting point, but for whatever reasons they have stayed with the 1972 date in their "official" literature.
http://www.denon.co.uk/site/frames_main.php?main=extr&MID=4&ver=
You're just rehashing what's already on this thread. My point is that I don't know what it significance there is in claiming that the Alpine was "the first pressed" when they did production runs of dozens of polygram classical recordings before the first batch was released to the public.
Quote from: BorisG on February 15, 2008, 01:36:10 PM
1982. CD pressing started in August, and CD Player sales, in October (priced at over 1,000 pounds sterling). About 150 CD titles, mostly classical, were available.
Several online sources seem to confirm that Abba's The Victors was the first CD pressed, and Karajan's "Alpine" the first classical recording pressed and released. It's generally thought that this honor went to Karajan for his strong advocacy of Compact Disc, and being that DG was a Polygram company, as were Philips and Decca.
For LPs, Denon in 1972 had the first commercial digital recording. Several others followed throughout the late 1970's, including Decca, EMI, Chandos. I do not know if Karajan's "Alpine" was on LP before CD.
My first CD player was a 3rd generation Philips, but I cannot remember the exact year (maybe 1985) or price (maybe $400). At the time, I was heavily into LPs and I was thrilled over the LP close-outs and their low prices.
By 1986 and 1987, CD selection and pricing became more attractive. Then through 1988 and 1989 was what's referred to as the golden CD sales era, because many were duplicating by buying what they had on LP.
Hard to believe 20 years have shot by. I still love CDs. :-*
Quote from: head-case on February 17, 2008, 07:53:21 AM
You're just rehashing what's already on this thread. My point is that I don't know what it significance there is in claiming that the Alpine was "the first pressed" when they did production runs of dozens of polygram classical recordings before the first batch was released to the public.
The answer was included with the "rehash". Honorary.
1)VPO/DG - Bruckner 7th (perhaps the finest Bruckner recording available by anyone IMO, HVK's final testament)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31G0YB3EVDL._AA115_.jpg)
2)VPO/DG - Bruckner 8th (deeper spiritual insights than previous two recordings)
3)BPO/DG Galleria - Bruckner 9th (1966 version almost matches the great Giulini/VPO version)
4)VPO/Andante - Bruckner 9th (1978 live version of great intensity, part of great 4CD Bruckner 7,8,9 Andante box set)
5)BPO/DG - Mahler 9th (live version)
6)BPO/DG - Beethoven 9th (1977 version, great cast and searing conclusion of work)
I think Karajan's lasting legacy will be his Bruckner work especially if we can get good remaster of his 1970s DG set to fully reveal all thier potential.
I think it is unlikely that there will ever be remasterings of his Bruckner recordings on DG, but fortunately, there are the EMI 4 and 7 which sound better and more "authentic" than the DG versions. Not that DG couldn't capture the sound of the BP under HvK "realitically" if they wanted to, instead of fiddling with the knobs ad nauseam to make the sound more "brilliant". The DG Bruckner 5 is a very good example for how well they could record the BP, and it is also musically very good so I would include that in a list of "top" recommendations although I wouldn't want to restrict myself to just 5 choices.
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 18, 2008, 10:33:52 AM
1)VPO/DG - Bruckner 7th (perhaps the finest Bruckner recording available by anyone IMO, HVK's final testament))
*
*
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2)VPO/DG - Bruckner 8th (deeper spiritual insights than previous two recordings)
3)BPO/DG Galleria - Bruckner 9th (1966 version almost matches the great Giulini/VPO version)
4)VPO/Andante - Bruckner 9th (1978 live version of great intensity, part of great 4CD Bruckner 7,8,9 Andante box set)
5)BPO/DG - Mahler 9th (live version)
6)BPO/DG - Beethoven 9th (1977 version, great cast and searing conclusion of work)
I think Karajan's lasting legacy will be his Bruckner work especially if we can get good remaster of his 1970s DG set to fully reveal all thier potential.
#3, no contest. 1966 BPO/Karajan easily beats 1988 VPO/Giulini's glacial pace and softer dynamics.
I have not heard #4. Greater intensity than 1966?
That I find hard to believe, but I will look forward to comparing.
I think his Bruckner legacy already is.
Quote from: BorisG on February 18, 2008, 11:24:23 AM
#3, no contest. 1966 BPO/Karajan easily beats 1988 VPO/Giulini's glacial pace and softer dynamics.
I have not heard #4. Greater intensity than 1966? That I find hard to believe, but I will look forward to comparing.
I think his Bruckner legacy already is.
BorisYou must get the Andante set, Berkshire records still has some copies for sale at closeout price, it is essential!
Includes Hardbound digibook with 100 pages of photos and info, content:
Symphonies 7 {cond. Bohm. Rec.1976}, 8 {cond. Furtwangler. Rec.1954} & 9 {cond. Karajan. Rec.1978}. (All w.Vienna Philharmonic)
I know it is almost unthinkable but HVK surpasses the 1966 version in intensity with the 1978 VPO live, towering climaxes will take take your breath away, will make you rethink what HVK is capable of and makes me wish there were more live recordings like this available.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31X6F2M6R6L._AA240_.jpg)
Remaindered at BRO and it's still 30 bucks? No thanks. What I don't understand is how andante is still in business.
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 18, 2008, 11:47:46 AM
Boris
You must get the Andante set, Berkshire records still has some copies for sale at closeout price, it is essential!
Includes Hardbound digibook with 100 pages of photos and info, content:
Symphonies 7 {cond. Bohm. Rec.1976}, 8 {cond. Furtwangler. Rec.1954} & 9 {cond. Karajan. Rec.1978}. (All w.Vienna Philharmonic)
I know it is almost unthinkable but HVK surpasses the 1966 version in intensity with the 1978 VPO live, towering climaxes will take take your breath away, will make you rethink what HVK is capable of and makes me wish there were more live recordings like this available.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31X6F2M6R6L._AA240_.jpg)
I think I have the 1978 version of the 9th as a film on DVD (which also includes a performance of the Te Deum). I am pretty sure it is the same performance, I have compared them at some point but don't remember exactly what I found, although I seem to remember they shared a number of features which point to them being the exact same recording (such as one of the horns losing pitch on the very last, long held note) but the DVD has slightly better sound.
Quote from: M forever on February 18, 2008, 12:38:45 PM
I think I have the 1978 version of the 9th as a film on DVD (which also includes a performance of the Te Deum). I am pretty sure it is the same performance, I have compared them at some point but don't remember exactly what I found, although I seem to remember they shared a number of features which point to them being the exact same recording (such as one of the horns losing pitch on the very last, long held note) but the DVD has slightly better sound.
That's this one?
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/0734395.jpg)
I wasn't aware that it has been released in the US yet.
Quote from: M forever on February 18, 2008, 12:38:45 PM
I think I have the 1978 version of the 9th as a film on DVD (which also includes a performance of the Te Deum). I am pretty sure it is the same performance, I have compared them at some point but don't remember exactly what I found, although I seem to remember they shared a number of features which point to them being the exact same recording (such as one of the horns losing pitch on the very last, long held note) but the DVD has slightly better sound.
More info for VPO/Andante 9th from booklet:
Recorded 5/8/78, Nowak edition, source of tapes Austrian Radio ORF
1)23:04
2)10:23
3)24:26
Total 57:55
The one I have is actually a Chinese edition I bought on ebay, maybe 2 years or so ago.
Quote from: M forever on February 18, 2008, 02:23:18 PM
The one I have is actually a Chinese edition I bought on ebay, maybe 2 years or so ago.
Probably a pirate. An online Bruckner discography lists VHS, Laserdisc, and Japan DVD for previous video releases of the 1978 9.
This is the first international DVD release (Feb. 4 in Europe). It also includes the 1979 St. Florian 8.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31UflH7ZG2L._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: BorisG on February 18, 2008, 02:38:07 PM
Probably a pirate. An online Bruckner discography lists VHS, Laserdisc, and Japan DVD for previous video releases of the 1978 9.
This is the first international DVD release (Feb. 4 in Europe). It also includes the 1979 St. Florian 8.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31UflH7ZG2L._SS500_.jpg)
Do you derive some peculiar satisfaction from posting exactly the same thing that I have just posted?
Impossible to stop at five when the big haired guy gave us so much! :D
Quote from: head-case on February 18, 2008, 02:55:11 PM
Do you derive some peculiar satisfaction from posting exactly the same thing that I have just posted?
:-*
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 18, 2008, 01:06:30 PM
More info for VPO/Andante 9th from booklet:
Recorded 5/8/78, Nowak edition, source of tapes Austrian Radio ORF
1)23:04
2)10:23
3)24:26
Total 57:55
MDoes this info match the Bruckner 9th contained on your DVD version?
Or is Andante 9th another performance
I can't get to the DVD right now because I just moved from San Diego to Boston, and my entire CD collection is packed up in boxes which are in my new company's warehouse. But, like I said, I think they are the same as I seem to recall some features like the little horn problem on the last note are the same.
The top 5 Karajan recordings, IMHO, are:
Brahms Ein Deutsches Requiem with Schwarzkopff and Hans Hotter - EMI
Wagner Die Meistersinger Von Nürnberg (1951) - EMI
Schoenberg, Berg, Webern: Orchestral Works - DG
Honegger Sym 2 & 3; Stravinsky Concerto - DG
Wagner Concert with Jessye Norman - DG
Quote from: M forever on February 18, 2008, 10:56:09 PM
I can't get to the DVD right now because I just moved from San Diego to Boston, and my entire CD collection is packed up in boxes which are in my new company's warehouse. But, like I said, I think they are the same as I seem to recall some features like the little horn problem on the last note are the same.
From similar discussions a few years ago on another website, they are the same performances. Someone also added that the DVD (compared to Andante) had better sound.
Unfortunately, those discussions involved identity and sound, and little if anything about the quality of performance.
This 1978 performance on the new DVD has peaked my interest, since I did not care for two other 1970's recordings for performance and sound issues--the 1974 BPO/Karajan (DG), and 1976 VPO/Karajan (DG).
Quote from: BorisG on February 19, 2008, 09:14:31 AM
From similar discussions a few years ago on another website, they are the same performances. Someone also added that the DVD (compared to Andante) had better sound.
Unfortunately, those discussions involved identity and sound, and little if anything about the quality of performance.
This 1978 performance on the new DVD has peaked my interest, since I did not care for two other 1970's recordings for performance and sound issues--the 1974 BPO/Karajan (DG), and 1976 VPO/Karajan (DG).
I am not aware of the latter. Is that on Festpieldokumente, the series of live recordings from Salzburg DG released once?
Quote from: M forever on February 19, 2008, 05:58:14 PM
I am not aware of the latter. Is that on Festpieldokumente, the series of live recordings from Salzburg DG released once?
I find I have a live recording of Bruckner 9, Karajan, VPO, July 25, 1976, issued by DG in 1991. It was part of a set commemorating the 150th aniversary of the VPO.
Quote from: BorisG on February 19, 2008, 09:14:31 AM
From similar discussions a few years ago on another website, they are the same performances. Someone also added that the DVD (compared to Andante) had better sound.
Unfortunately, those discussions involved identity and sound, and little if anything about the quality of performance.
This 1978 performance on the new DVD has peaked my interest, since I did not care for two other 1970's recordings for performance and sound issues--the 1974 BPO/Karajan (DG), and 1976 VPO/Karajan (DG).
Now I am interested in the DVD since the 9th is the same as Andante which I love, anyone comment on the Bruckner 8th (1979 St Florian) on the DVD?
Where is best place to scoop up a new or preferably used copy set for USA players?
Quote from: DarkAngel on February 20, 2008, 07:06:55 AM
Now I am interested in the DVD since the 9th is the same as Andante which I love, anyone comment on the Bruckner 8th (1979 St Florian) on the DVD?
Where is best place to scoop up a new or preferably used copy set for USA players?
You Tube has the St. Florian 8 Scherzo, taken from an older video.
Amazon.ca has the new DVD Feb. 26 (NTSC format).
A review of the new DVD- http://members.fortunecity.co.uk/boult/bruckner.html
Quote from: BorisG on February 20, 2008, 11:44:09 AM
You Tube has the St. Florian 8 Scherzo, taken from an older video.
Amazon.ca has the new DVD Feb. 26 (NTSC format).
A review of the new DVD- http://members.fortunecity.co.uk/boult/bruckner.html
Thanks for the info..........that review is understating things a bit IMO as far as the VPO 9th goes, the most intense and dramatic Bruckner I have ever heard from Karajan, never thought of it as being dark "gothic" style but I guess that is one way to look at it. Another transcendant experience is Karajan/VPO/DG 7th close of movement 1, just overwhelming in its massive build up and release......a soaring cathedral of sound for sure
What a great HVK Bruckner VPO 7,8,9 set you can make using the live 1978 VPO 9th with HVKs final DG/VPO 7,8
Quote from: BorisG on February 18, 2008, 02:38:07 PM
Probably a pirate. An online Bruckner discography lists VHS, Laserdisc, and Japan DVD for previous video releases of the 1978 9.
Could be, but it "looks" too official and too professionally produced to be a pirate. It could even be the Japanese release, all I remember is that I got it from a Chinese seller on ebay.
BTW, there is also a DVD (at least in Japan) of a live 9th from 1985 in Berlin. I went to the concert and remember it was filmed by German TV (one of the camera man actually made some big noise in the slow movement, I wonder if that is audible in the video). There are some clips from that video on youtube.
There is a vitriolic article about von Karajan by Ivan Hewett in today's 'Daily Telegraph'(UK)-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2008/03/13/bmivan113.xml
In the article Hewett states that "no one ever nominates Karajan's recording of a work as their favourite...".
Surely this is arrant nonsense and appallingly presumptuous arrogance?
Can I suggest the Karajan versions of Bruckner's 8th with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, the Sibelius's 4th and any of his interpretations of the Strauss tone poems?
My particular guide to recorded music-"The Penguin Guide to Recorded Classical Music"-certainly gives a number of Karajan performances as favourites. The editors of the Penguin Guide include Edward Greenfield and Robert Layton whose records as music critics over the years are a great deal more impressive than that of Mr. Hewett.
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 13, 2008, 03:40:15 PM
There is a vitriolic article about von Karajan by Ivan Hewett in today's 'Daily Telegraph'(UK)-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2008/03/13/bmivan113.xml
Can I suggest the Karajan versions of Bruckner's 8th with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, the Sibelius's 4th and any of his interpretations of the Strauss tone poems?
My particular guide to recorded music-"The Penguin Guide to Recorded Classical Music"-certainly gives a number of Karajan performances as favourites. The editors of the Penguin Guide include Edward Greenfield and Robert Layton whose records as music critics over the years are a great deal more impressive than that of Mr. Hewett.
The guy whom wrote that was an obvious idiot. I'd throw in the Mahler 6th and 9th, as well as 1962 Beethoven Symphonies 1-5 and 7-9 as well.
Quote from: Haffner on March 13, 2008, 03:51:52 PM
The guy whom wrote that was an obvious idiot. I'd throw in the Mahler 6th and 9th, as well as 1962 Beethoven Symphonies 1-5 and 7-9 as well.
What an appallingly ill considered and ill researched article. Another example of how this constant dumming down is now spreading to what used to be called the broadsheets, the so-called serious press. I find it all so very dispiriting.
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on March 14, 2008, 02:09:01 AM
What an appallingly ill considered and ill researched article. Another example of how this constant dumming down is now spreading to what used to be called the broadsheets, the so-called serious press. I find it all so very dispiriting.
Yeah! Not to mention plain dumb.
Herbert von Karajan is definitely my favourite conductor, he was able to extract beautiful sounds from every orchestras he played with and to realize a great harmony between the chords! His style of conducting was very involving, so elegeant, refined, passionate! :D
His music sometimes sounded a bit too spick and span, but this made people be able to appreciate musical works of many different periods.
Karajan recorded a lot masterpieces , especially those ones of the Romantic era; I think he was a master in performing German Romantic music.
Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelungen
Beethoven: Symphonies Cycle
Bruckner: Symphony No.8
R. Strauss: Eine Alpensinfonie/Also Sprach Zarathustra
Dvořák: Symphony No.9
Ilaria
We have a nice Karajan Legacy thread somewhere, although with me gone for a while, I bet it's full of cobwebs. :D
Edit: By no means am I saying there aren't people on this forum who like Karajan, though.
Just not necessarily enough to prattle on about him like I tend to, given the opportunity!
Three years ago on this thread I listed five recordings. Before looking back I listed my current thoughts: they are different.
Mahler 9 live
Rosenkavalier Schwarzkopf
Beethoven Missa Solemnis Janowitz
Meistersingers: Dresden
Bruckner 5
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on September 15, 2011, 04:57:11 AM
Three years ago on this thread I listed five recordings. Before looking back I listed my current thoughts: they are different.
Mahler 9 live
Now there's a welcome addition, compared to last time. :D
I did not ever hear that Mahler performance until I bought the DG anniversary box last year. Now I put it along side the EMI Barbirolli.
Karajan is more Zen that B in that final movement, but provides an almost equal emotional punch in the first movement.
Mike
Zen is really the keyword for the whole thing - in rather interesting contrast to the studio recording from two years earlier, where things are more in line with the rest of his (admittedly all studio-recorded) very formalist Mahler.
Edit: And I love the Barbirolli too! Very passionate, even if Karajan's Zen wins me over every time.
This is an easy choice for me:
Wagner: Ring cycle (if we can count this as one :)), Berliners
Strauss: Alpine Symphony, Berliners
Schoenberg: Verklarte Nacht, Pelleas und Melisande, Berliners
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 10, Berliners
Honegger: Symphonies 2 & 3
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 13, 2008, 03:40:15 PM
There is a vitriolic article about von Karajan by Ivan Hewett in today's 'Daily Telegraph'(UK)-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2008/03/13/bmivan113.xml
In the article Hewett states that "no one ever nominates Karajan's recording of a work as their favourite...".
Surely this is arrant nonsense and appallingly presumptuous arrogance?
Can I suggest the Karajan versions of Bruckner's 8th with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, the Sibelius's 4th and any of his interpretations of the Strauss tone poems?
My particular guide to recorded music-"The Penguin Guide to Recorded Classical Music"-certainly gives a number of Karajan performances as favourites. The editors of the Penguin Guide include Edward Greenfield and Robert Layton whose records as music critics over the years are a great deal more impressive than that of Mr. Hewett.
I agree with those recordings but I also like the Sibelius 6 b/w 4
Quote from: Haffner on March 13, 2008, 03:51:52 PM
The guy whom wrote that was an obvious idiot. I'd throw in the Mahler 6th and 9th, as well as 1962 Beethoven Symphonies 1-5 and 7-9 as well.
great call.....I like his ninth more than his sixth. Both are great.... That Beethoven set is my favorite Beethoven set.....
For reference, the chimeric 'Karajan Legacy' thread, actually 2 or 3 threads of different names compiled into one, is here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,954.0.html).
The high polish and streamlined performances of Karajan had much to do with his keen listening and attention to detail. I found this series of rehearsals in 1965 of the Schumann 4th Symphony not only to be a revelation in terms of how he himself worked, but understanding better the composition itself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Shc-4AZVaNk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/user/z0tx#p/u/5/gahF3FEWjM0
ZB
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 16, 2011, 08:15:01 PM
This is an easy choice for me:
Wagner: Ring cycle (if we can count this as one :)), Berliners
Strauss: Alpine Symphony, Berliners
Schoenberg: Verklarte Nacht, Pelleas und Melisande, Berliners
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 10, Berliners
Honegger: Symphonies 2 & 3
I have your odd numbered choices and regard them highly, but I've always heard that his Shostakovich was highly unidiomatic?
Somebody has been doing some thread spelunking.
Bruckner 5
Bruckner 7 (EMI)
Sibelius 5 (EMI, either stereo recording with Berlin or the earlier Philharmonia)
Sibelius 6 & 7 (EMI mono)
Wagner chunks on EMI
Quote from: The new erato on October 09, 2011, 10:52:21 AM
I have your odd numbered choices and regard them highly, but I've always heard that his Shostakovich was highly unidiomatic?
Well, he only performed the 10th and recorded it twice - I suspect the recommendation is for the mid-1960s (earlier) one, which I agree is excellent. I can't recall hearing the work done better, by Mravinsky, Ancerl, Jansons or others. He performed it in Moscow with the composer present, who was thrilled with his reading.
Other top HvK choices for me:
Sibelius 5 (DG)
Also Sprach Zarathustra (DG, 1960s)
Bruckner Sym 7 (VPO DG, 1987)
La Boheme (Decca)
Beethoven Sym 3 (DG, 1977)
Quote from: The new erato on October 09, 2011, 10:52:21 AM
I have your odd numbered choices and regard them highly, but I've always heard that his Shostakovich was highly unidiomatic?
It was unusual for Karajan to conduct Shostakovich or Stravinsky or even Bartok for that matter, but, I think his early reading of Shostakovich's 10th is excellent. Like I said, it's not the usual repertoire for him, but he surprised me with how well he understood the music.
I should have also mentioned that I like Karajan's Sibelius recordings a lot as well.
Quote from: akiralx on October 09, 2011, 06:36:59 PM
Well, he only performed the 10th and recorded it twice - I suspect the recommendation is for the mid-1960s (earlier) one, which I agree is excellent. I can't recall hearing the work done better, by Mravinsky, Ancerl, Jansons or others. He performed it in Moscow with the composer present, who was thrilled with his reading.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 09, 2011, 07:00:00 PM
It was unusual for Karajan to conduct Shostakovich or Stravinsky or even Bartok for that matter, but, I think his early reading of Shostakovich's 10th is excellent. Like I said, it's not the usual repertoire for him, but he surprised me with how well he understood the music.
I should have also mentioned that I like Karajan's Sibelius recordings a lot as well.
With regard to Karajan's Shostakovich credentials, it is actually recorded (my source being, as often, the Osborne biography) that Shostakovich was Karajan's favourite composer. In fact, Karajan had asked EMI if he could record the 8th, after he did the 10th with DG, only to have his request vettoed on account of the Previn version already being in their catalogue. I've no idea why he didn't do it with DG rather than (or in addition to) re-recording the 10th. However, he clearly did adore the 10th symphony.
Speaking of which, the aforementioned singularly intense Moscow performance (which I've advertised before 8)) is obtainable:
[asin]B001HWW9XG[/asin]
Double posting as a reminder that we do have a Karajan Legacy frankenthread, pieced together from various other threads, here:
The Karajan Legacy (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,954.0.html)
(And I'm not just saying that because I started one of them. :P It's useful to keep all discussion of a given conductor in one place!)
Edit: We also have, per my arrangement with Que, a separate thread for your personal issues with Karajan. :)