I have none.
I love the entire last 6 syms from first note to last, all is glorious.
Well, if the waterboarding method of confession was applied ;)
Then I'd have to say the finale to the 41st..
that section of the 41st, is only matched/equaled, or perhaps some might say surpassed by the finale in the 25th piano concerto.
Symphony 40 - 1st movement towards the end of the exposition where the soft call/response of the opening motif leads to a sudden high octave violin charge to a cadence. Nice. Also the transition passage in the fourth movement between the 1st and 2nd themes.
Symphony 36 - Closing of the exposition when the strings play 8th notes at forte, then the same 8th notes suddenly piano, then the same notes but as 16ths suddenly loud again.
Favorite moment in a Mozart symphony? The end. ;D
Quote from: Keemun on February 27, 2008, 06:47:40 PM
Favorite moment in a Mozart symphony? The end. ;D
I agree, the feeling of satisfaction and fruition you get is far greater in Mozart than in any other composer. You need a good 5 minute pause to come back to earth from the utopia you just visited.
#39 start to finish.
Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on February 27, 2008, 07:02:27 PM
I agree, the feeling of satisfaction and fruition you get is far greater in Mozart than in any other composer. You need a good 5 minute pause to come back to earth from the utopia you just visited.
No, I was referring to the relief felt when the torture ends. (I'm only being
half serious, of course.) >:D Mozart's symphonies are on my ever-growing list of classical music I hope to one day appreciate. :-\
Quote from: Keemun on February 27, 2008, 07:08:44 PM
No, I was referring to the relief felt when the torture ends. (I'm only being half serious, of course.) >:D Mozart's symphonies are on my ever-growing list of classical music I hope to one day appreciate. :-\
You should refer to Teresa's list for things you might like...
... Haha, just teasing you :P
Quote from: Keemun on February 27, 2008, 07:08:44 PM
No, I was referring to the relief felt when the torture ends. (I'm only being half serious, of course.) >:D Mozart's symphonies are on my ever-growing list of classical music I hope to one day appreciate. :-\
Well, I'm TOTALLY serious.
Mozart symphonies are boring, in the extreme.
When any of them is performed at a concert I might attend, I hope they're the last items on the program so that I can leave before I hear a note of that drudgery while missing nothing else.
But their are things that are worse than any Mozart symphony. And that is ANY Mozart opera.
I love the 6 last Symphonies (and also others, such as the 25, 29 and 34), but there is a moment that I put above the rest: the sublime Andante Cantabile of the 41.
First movement of his 38th symphony,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNQz417bDTQ&feature=related
1:35-2:57
:)
The entire Symphony No. 40, but the 1st movement especially.
I used to find Mozart symphonies "boring", but not anymore. After i got a copy of Bruno Walter's Mozart's last six symphonies, it completely blew me away, i think it's safe to say that you have not heard Mozart until you have heard Walter's interpretation.
the opening of the 35th
the opening of the 36th
the last movement of the 40th, where the development starts.
Beyond the Jupiter finale, which is one of the most sublime accomplishments in all of art, I opt for:
1. The anguished, pulsating minor-key theme in the 2d mvt of Sym no. 39; 0:)
2. The joyous finale to Sym no. 39; 0:)
3. First movement of Sym no. 21. 0:)
Quote from: Gustav on February 28, 2008, 04:29:37 AM
I used to find Mozart symphonies "boring", but not anymore. After i got a copy of Bruno Walter's Mozart's last six symphonies, it completely blew me away, i think it's safe to say that you have not heard Mozart until you have heard Walter's interpretation.
This set on LP was one of my first CM purchases. Played it quite often. It was this recording that gave me the desire to compare others, and start as a critic of sorts in all recordings.
The Walter/Columbia was released on cd once or twice and then Sony bought out the old Columbia recordings in the mid 90's and never re-released those recordings.
They madea set with only one Columbia SO and the others were with the NY Phil, as part of the *Last 6*.
I had to find the set on amazon/Germany 4 yrs ago.
I think Arkiv has made the good effort to release their own release of the Columbia set.
Now there is another set that I have found to match equally the Walter/Columbia.
that is the Bohm/Berlin. Both conductors take the tempos/phrasing almost identical.
Someone malied me yrs ago about that Bohm/berlin and asked if i thought it was too *klappermiester* in approach. Whatever that might mean ???
I find nothing of the sort.
Both recordings may seem a tad too *heavy* for some preferences, those wanting more chamberistic sound, like say the Mackerras/Prague.
I had the Mackerras set.
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 28, 2008, 03:54:26 AM
The entire Symphony No. 40, but the 1st movement especially.
The entire Symphony No. 40, but the 2nd movement especially. ;D
I like when that upper-neighbor figure which opens the first theme of the first movement of the K.550, comes back as closing material at the end of the Expo.
Quote from: paulb on February 28, 2008, 05:06:52 AM
that is the Bohm/Berlin. Both conductors take the tempos/phrasing almost identical.
Someone malied me yrs ago about that Bohm/berlin and asked if i thought it was too *klappermiester* in approach. Whatever that might mean ???
I find nothing of the sort.
That might not be a coincidence, In Karl Böhm's autobiography he admitted that Bruno Walter made him "to love Mozart more".
Another beloved moment, though in the K.551, is in the Andante cantabile, which is in three, when the passages briefly establish a two-beat pattern 'against' the notated triple meter.
Quote from: Gustav on February 28, 2008, 08:19:50 AM
That might not be a coincidence, In Karl Böhm's autobiography he admitted that Bruno Walter made him "to love Mozart more".
Interesting.
I wonder if Bohm had the Walter LP set in his collection.
I sat down one day and dida compare, and gave up after some futile efforts. It was pointless, they were that close, yet the yrs later recorded Bohm set has its individual unique stamp.
Its the only 2 recordings of the late syms that I kept in my collection.
yes i had the Klemperer/Philharmonia early mono/Testament. Good, but sound recording and some phrasing made it un-necessary to keep.
Quote from: paulb on February 28, 2008, 08:44:39 AM
Interesting.
I wonder if Bohm had the Walter LP set in his collection.
I sat down one day and dida compare, and gave up after some futile efforts. It was pointless, they were that close, yet the yrs later recorded Bohm set has its individual unique stamp.
Its the only 2 recordings of the late syms that I kept in my collection.
yes i had the Klemperer/Philharmonia early mono/Testament. Good, but sound recording and some phrasing made it un-necessary to keep.
uhh, Böhm actually WORKED with Bruno Walter, and in fact, it was Bruno Walter who gave him his first big break.
The trio from the third movement (minuet and trio) from Symphony #39. Exquisite!
Quote from: Gustav on February 28, 2008, 08:46:23 AM
uhh, Böhm actually WORKED with Bruno Walter, and in fact, it was Bruno Walter who gave him his first big break.
I like it when one great conductor acknowledges his predecessor's approach to a composer and just follows his foot steps. Nothing wrong with that at all, provide the approch is outstanding, as was Walter with the Colubmia.
Quote from: paulb on February 28, 2008, 09:26:46 AM
I like it when one great conductor acknowledges his predecessor's approach to a composer and just follows his foot steps. Nothing wrong with that at all, provide the approch is outstanding, as was Walter with the Colubmia.
I liked it too, have you heard the one recording of Walter conducting the Linz symphony? there is a rehearsal thrown in there too, i find it most fascinating.
Quote from: Gustav on February 28, 2008, 09:29:49 AM
I liked it too, have you heard the one recording of Walter conducting the Linz symphony? there is a rehearsal thrown in there too, i find it most fascinating.
I never bought the release with the Linz rehearsal. Now if it were on DVD, that would interest me enough to buy.
The only thing that strikes me different between the 2 recordings, is that Bohm allows for more spot light on individual soloists. Some of the Berliners are simply amazing in their tech skills with their instruments, and Bohm gives them the liberty to *shine through*.. Walter takes a more wholeistic/sweeping approach. Though more often the dif is too little and subtle to notice between the 2.
Opening movements in both g-minor symphonies. Those (natural) horns!
Please, don't call valves "unnatural" ;D
Quote from: karlhenning on February 28, 2008, 10:00:57 AM
Please, don't call valves "unnatural" ;D
However Mozart himself may call them "unnatural" - no joking! ;D
Well, that Wolferl was a wag 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on February 28, 2008, 11:30:34 AM
Well, that Wolferl was a wag 8)
But I will listen to his music and not yours! ;)
Look, you've said your point, Mozart as a composer is a god, I as a composer am not even worth your consideration. Just what I did to provoke the insult is a mystery to me, but no matter.
Let's let the thread move on.
I've always found slight trouble with most if not all Mozart symphonies in that that they're not consistently good throughout all movements. Several have supremely good individual movements but are then followed by relatively pedestrian ones (by Mozart's extemely high standards). Perhaps the most consistently good Mozart symphony is No 41, and the best movement for me is the second, ie Andante. In most symphonic works I tend to prefer the slow movement the best.
Rather off subject, I think there are few symphonies that are consistently very good throughout. I'd place Schubert's Unfinished as the very best of the bunch, although with only two movements it's a rather unfair comparison. Next to that, for consistently high quality, I'd place Beethoven 5, 6, 3, 7, 8, 9 in that order After that Dvorak 9, then Brahms 4, then Schumann 4, Tchaikovsky 6, and possibly Sibelius 2 and Bruckner 8. Beyond these, I can't think of any others that are brilliant throughout.
I must admit that I left regular listening to symphonies by any of these guys behind ages ago. The only symphonies I tend to listen to even remotely regularly these days are some of the earlier Haydn ones, in which lie some treasures.
Anything from the 39th. Sends me into raptures 0:) (I especially like Bohm conducting this one)
Quote from: Iago on February 27, 2008, 10:47:27 PMWell, I'm TOTALLY serious.
Mozart symphonies are boring, in the extreme.
When any of them is performed at a concert I might attend, I hope they're the last items on the program so that I can leave before I hear a note of that drudgery while missing nothing else.
But their are things that are worse than any Mozart symphony. And that is ANY Mozart opera.
Yes, this post is ancient, but I didn't want to start a new thread if an old one already existed (plus, I got to quote the ultimate curmudgeon).
I am struggling to enjoy any of Mozart's symphonies, as I find them all to be snoozefests, so today I was like I'm going to find a 41 I can at least get through.
Tried Bohm et al.
Tried HIP (Hogwood; Koopman; Marriner)
Tried the No. 1 sounding orchestra from YouTube.
I cannot make it through the first movement. I find it incredibly boring to the point that it quite literally pulls me to sleep.
Mozart symphonies are asmr to me, and I didn't get it, and I am trying - you cannot say I'm not trying.
Have you tried the Riccardo Minasi/Ensemble Resonanz version?
Quote from: hopefullytrusting on September 23, 2024, 01:28:35 PMYes, this post is ancient, but I didn't want to start a new thread if an old one already existed (plus, I got to quote the ultimate curmudgeon).
I am struggling to enjoy any of M
ozart's symphonies, as I find them all to be snoozefests, so today I was like I'm going to find a 41 I can at least get through.
Tried Bohm et al.
Tried HIP (Hogwood; Koopman; Marriner)
Tried the No. 1 sounding orchestra from YouTube.
I cannot make it through the first movement. I find it incredibly boring to the point that it quite literally pulls me to sleep.
Try Krips/RCO, my favorite. You might benefit from reading liner notes to learn why the 41st is so highly regarded. It might help you by either shifting your perspective or giving you something specific to listen to.
Anyway, my favorite moments:
Close to the end of the first movement of the 35th. The tension mounts, and then the strings play this section FAST, and it is so catchy but also eruptive. Now some conductors will just hush the orchestra down right at the moment, and some will go in guns blazing. But it is phenomenal either way!
I like the mysterious, dark opening of the 38th that then switches to a fast, zippy, sunny melody. The melody in the slow part AND the melody in the fast part are BOTH favorites of mine, and I've never tired of hearing it.
And then, of course, the five-voice fugal section in the 41st.
Quote from: Wanderer on September 23, 2024, 02:05:40 PMHave you tried the Riccardo Minasi/Ensemble Resonanz version?
I've not, but will give it a shot.
Quote from: DavidW on September 23, 2024, 02:10:26 PMTry Krips/RCO, my favorite. You might benefit from reading liner notes to learn why the 41st is so highly regarded. It might help you by either shifting your perspective or giving you something specific to listen to.
I'll give that one the good, college try. I have read up on the symphony - that is the only reason I am still trying to listen to it.
Quote from: hopefullytrusting on September 23, 2024, 01:28:35 PMI am struggling to enjoy any of Mozart's symphonies, as I find them all to be snoozefests, so today I was like I'm going to find a 41 I can at least get through.
I'd be interested to know whose symphonies you don't find boring - do you prefer Haydn, for example, often bracketed with Mozart but really a very different composer? Or is your ideal symphony Webern's Op.21 or Brian's
Gothic? (Extreme examples, but my question, and interest, are serious.) I'm intrigued because, until relatively recently, I considered Mozart, much as I enjoy his music, to be a sort of second-rate Haydn who just wasn't very concerned with symphonic development. I'm now slowly getting the point that a typical Haydn symphonic movement is a discussion, one by Mozart more like a brilliantly-illustrated story.
And as far as a favourite moment goes: first movement of the
Linzer, 2nd subject - angry E minor statement, very Beethovenian, answered by deep C major
Harmonie chords - lovely.
Quote from: hopefullytrusting on September 23, 2024, 01:28:35 PMYes, this post is ancient, but I didn't want to start a new thread if an old one already existed (plus, I got to quote the ultimate curmudgeon).
I am struggling to enjoy any of Mozart's symphonies, as I find them all to be snoozefests, so today I was like I'm going to find a 41 I can at least get through.
For #41 Minkowski or Immerseel, both HIP. The most unconventional Mozart symphony recordings I know are Harnoncourt's (he might have been easily outdone by more recent ones I have not heard, though), but his 41 (Concertgebouw, he made 2 later ones but I have not heard them) is slow and mannered, esp. in the first movement, so I don't think it's a good place to start.
But do you like other Mozart: concertos, sonatas, operas? Maybe you don't like the overall style?
Try 39, 40, 38 or the "little g minor" 25. The 1st movement of 41 is quite conventional, especially in the themes, maybe not the best place to start
Quote from: hopefullytrusting on September 23, 2024, 01:28:35 PMYes, this post is ancient, but I didn't want to start a new thread if an old one already existed (plus, I got to quote the ultimate curmudgeon).
I am struggling to enjoy any of Mozart's symphonies, as I find them all to be snoozefests, so today I was like I'm going to find a 41 I can at least get through.
Tried Bohm et al.
Tried HIP (Hogwood; Koopman; Marriner)
Tried the No. 1 sounding orchestra from YouTube.
I cannot make it through the first movement. I find it incredibly boring to the point that it quite literally pulls me to sleep.
Mozart symphonies are asmr to me, and I didn't get it, and I am trying - you cannot say I'm not trying.
Think of 41 as an comic opera without words, in my opinion recorded performance is all downhill after Albert Coates.
Quote from: Mandryka on September 24, 2024, 06:24:13 AMin my opinion recorded performance is all downhill after Albert Coates.
Ah, the version with 4 trumpets, piccolo, clarinet and 30 obbligato moustaches. Bet they're all thinking "Did we have to play in the cupboard where the harpist keeps his kit?"
Quote from: DaveF on September 23, 2024, 11:15:37 PMI'd be interested to know whose symphonies you don't find boring - do you prefer Haydn, for example, often bracketed with Mozart but really a very different composer? Or is your ideal symphony Webern's Op.21 or Brian's Gothic? (Extreme examples, but my question, and interest, are serious.) I'm intrigued because, until relatively recently, I considered Mozart, much as I enjoy his music, to be a sort of second-rate Haydn who just wasn't very concerned with symphonic development. I'm now slowly getting the point that a typical Haydn symphonic movement is a discussion, one by Mozart more like a brilliantly-illustrated story.
I've liked pretty much every other symphonic composer that I have heard, except Michael Haydn, who I found more boring than Mozart, but who I listened to because of the Wikipedia article on Mozart's 41. I would say that I am more of an instrument person than an orchestra person though, in general.
Quote from: Jo498 on September 24, 2024, 01:06:46 AMFor #41 Minkowski or Immerseel, both HIP. The most unconventional Mozart symphony recordings I know are Harnoncourt's (he might have been easily outdone by more recent ones I have not heard, though), but his 41 (Concertgebouw, he made 2 later ones but I have not heard them) is slow and mannered, esp. in the first movement, so I don't think it's a good place to start.
But do you like other Mozart: concertos, sonatas, operas? Maybe you don't like the overall style?
Try 39, 40, 38 or the "little g minor" 25. The 1st movement of 41 is quite conventional, especially in the themes, maybe not the best place to start
I'll add both of those to today's docket, and report back.
Oh, I love pretty much everything else by Mozart. It is only his symphonies which have been giving me trouble.
Quote from: Mandryka on September 24, 2024, 06:24:13 AMThink of 41 as an comic opera without words, in my opinion recorded performance is all downhill after Albert Coates.
I'll give that a listen later today. :-)
Thanks for all the recommendations.
Quote from: Mandryka on September 24, 2024, 06:24:13 AMThink of 41 as an comic opera without words...
Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to say - not just 41, but all of them (for me).
And instead of just making silly comments, I decided to have a listen to Coates - flippin' 'eck, 7½ minutes for the first movement, including expo repeat, a good 4 minutes less than (for example) Pinnock. I wondered first of all if it was like one of those old World War I newsreels, where the troops all march by at speeded-up tempo, but no, it's pitched perfectly in C. Either something to do with fitting it onto 2 sides of a 78, or HIP has been around longer than we thought.
Quote from: Wanderer on September 23, 2024, 02:05:40 PMHave you tried the Riccardo Minasi/Ensemble Resonanz version?
Also, two quite exciting and energetic recent HIP versions that came to mind: the one by
Matthieu Herzog/Ensemble Appassionato and the one by
Martin Frost/Swedish Chamber Orchestra (on the "Ecstasy and Abyss" album).
Quote from: DaveF on September 24, 2024, 08:27:51 AMYes, that's exactly what I was trying to say - not just 41, but all of them (for me).
And instead of just making silly comments, I decided to have a listen to Coates - flippin' 'eck, 7½ minutes for the first movement, including expo repeat, a good 4 minutes less than (for example) Pinnock. I wondered first of all if it was like one of those old World War I newsreels, where the troops all march by at speeded-up tempo, but no, it's pitched perfectly in C. Either something to do with fitting it onto 2 sides of a 78, or HIP has been around
longer than we thought.
Sometimes I like it fast -- Bruno Maderna playing Schubert 9 is another good example
Quote from: Wanderer on September 24, 2024, 08:33:59 AMAlso, two quite exciting and energetic recent HIP versions that came to mind: the one by Matthieu Herzog/Ensemble Appassionato and the one by Martin Frost/Swedish Chamber Orchestra (on the "Ecstasy and Abyss" album).
I'll add those to my list.
I won't tempt fate today, but I'll get to them sooner rather than later.
Okay, finally got through all my homework.
To ask those who suggested speed - let me say - that was an unexpected experience. I wouldn't say it improved anything, but the piece changed dramatically, so I enjoyed how different the experience was. In fact, I'd love to see an orchestral competition on who could get through the first movement the quickest.
The one I liked most was by Immerseel, and this began my youtubing, and it led me to an amazing find: Harpsichord Vinyl Gallery (https://m.youtube.com/@HarpsichordVinylGallery/videos).
That channel shine is well worth my price of admission.
Thanks all. :)