Whenever the harp appears in the Sixth, for one thing.
Quote from: karlhenning on February 28, 2008, 04:18:26 AM
Whenever the harp appears in the Sixth, for one thing.
I'll listen for that today.
ahh, but do i havea recording of the 6th?
My favorite in Sibelius would also be the harp :). Throughout the 1st sym.
Man, that is some beautiful, beautiful harp composition.
You need to geta recording where the orch doesn't drown out the humble harp, some engineers do a good job, others have no clue at all.
I've heard almost every 1st, can't recall them all.
But I'd love to get my hands again one day on the Rozh/London SO, had it on Quintessense LP. One word :Powerful.
The hemiola (and hemiola-ish) internal rhythm changes in the middle movement of the Third.
The whole second movement of the First. Ah, the muted trumpets and the clarinets... pure bliss.
Too many to list, but the one that towers above all others: the opening bars of the Sixth.
The ending of the 5th. I have never heard an ending like it, and like I think most first timers to the piece, it was unforgettable.
The trombone solo towards the end of the 7th.
Quote from: edward on February 28, 2008, 06:12:01 AM
Too many to list, but the one that towers above all others: the opening bars of the Sixth.
Man, I get chills just
thinking of the start of that
Allegro molto moderato!
- the great string tune at the end of the second movement, Second Symphony
- the great string tune in the finale, Second Symphony
- last moment of the Second Symphony beginning with the pizzicato cello (?) notes
- Fifth Symphony, third movement, run-up to the very end
- Seventh Symphony. Uh ... drat ... I have to choose part? :(
Quote from: karlhenning on February 28, 2008, 05:35:26 AM
The hemiola (and hemiola-ish) internal rhythm changes in the middle movement of the Third.
OHHHH YESSSS!!!! That just KILLS me! That whole movement mesmerises me (I often walk around humming that beautifully simple waltz)
Quote from: just josh on February 28, 2008, 06:41:25 AMOHHHH YESSSS!!!! That just KILLS me! That whole movement mesmerises me (I often walk around humming that beautifully simple waltz)
["Hemiolish rhythm change", what is this?] Are you taking about this moment?
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/Sibelius3Andante.mp3[/mp3]
This is btw Segerstam, with a ritardando here. Blomstedt SFSO doesn't do a rit... I love the Segerstam approach more, but don't know what the Composers will is...
Another moment is the ending of Symphony No. 4.
Quote from: Wurstwasser on February 28, 2008, 07:11:31 AM
["Hemiolish rhythm change", what is this?] Are you taking about this moment?
That's one of a variety of rhythmic games I have in mind.
QuoteThis is btw Segerstam, with a ritardando here.
Hmm. I don't like that, actually. But then, FWIW, I think
Segerstam takes the
Valse triste too languidly, too.
Quote from: Wurstwasser on February 28, 2008, 07:11:31 AM
["Hemiolish rhythm change", what is this?] Are you taking about this moment?
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/21/1446950/Sibelius3Andante.mp3[/mp3]
This is btw Segerstam, with a ritardando here. Blomstedt SFSO doesn't do a rit... I love the Segerstam approach more, but don't know what the Composers will is...
Another moment is the ending of Symphony No. 4.
One of those "hemiola" sort of passages is in where it shifts into more of a major key and underneath the main melody there's some kind of 2 against 3 things happening in the lower strings. That clip is awfully slow!
Quote from: Wurstwasser on February 28, 2008, 07:11:31 AM
["Hemiolish rhythm change", what is this?] Are you taking about this moment?
No, this isn't the moment. There is a place in that movement Where the pizzicato bass ascends in duplets over the threes in the woodwinds.
From the 5th: the opening introduction and then the steady accelerando over some 8-9 minutes to the end of the movement. Then the last six chords of the finale with their widely separated rests and the final unison. I haven't heard that many recordings, but I have yet to hear one where the conductor gives those rests their full value, though.
Basically Symphonies no. 3-7 are one extended favorite moment for me.
But among all that favorite music, a especially favorite moment is in the 7th, during the "stormy sea" episode where all the strings in octaves are playing that string of eighth notes that surges up and down like waves in a turbulent sea, and the trombone tune emerges in the brass while the strings continue to surge, and there's a tense string of suspensions and the woodwinds come in with the first recognizable appearance of the motive which characterizes the "scherzo" episode. What a powerful moment!
Quote from: Sforzando on February 28, 2008, 07:42:33 AM
From the 5th: the opening introduction and then the steady accelerando over some 8-9 minutes to the end of the movement. Then the last six chords of the finale with their widely separated rests and the final unison. I haven't heard that many recordings, but I have yet to hear one where the conductor gives those rests their full value, though.
Just what I'd have said! The opening of 5 is magical, only slightly ruined by being used as the startup music of Sibelius notation software! But there is a moment towards the end of this movement where all of a sudden all the tensions seem to click into place (four bars before N, the change to a B major key sig), from which point the music surges into the Scherzo with a sense of momentarily carefree release which is hard to put into words.
But, yes, it would be easy to give many more - Sibelius is full of such exquisite moments of this type, real marvels of symphonic pacing, due in some part to the sense of momentum his movements build up. With all due respect to Mahler, who excels in other areas, IMHO I don't think he often managed such effortless, seamless formal control, partly because he tends to subdivide his (usually longer) movements into many smaller areas, each with their own character, and often divergent in tempo etc.
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on February 28, 2008, 07:47:54 AM
Basically Symphonies no. 3-7 are one extended favorite moment for me.
Hearty agreement. (I mean, in applyng the sentiment to my own experience; I don't mean that I agree that they are one extended favorite moment for
Mark.)
Though I agree to that, too. It would be foolhardy for me to try to contest that 0:)
OT. Favourite Finlandia performance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoZ_S5JjJ-s) ;D
The theme of the finale of the 2nd...... but taken in small doses, of course. 8)
Not familar enough with the others to make any more comments, though.
That's supposed to be the La Paz Youth Orchestra.
Sounds more like La Guerra.
Quote from: lukeottevanger on February 28, 2008, 08:39:27 AM
only slightly ruined by being used as the startup music of Sibelius notation software!
Better that than Finlandia . . . (though you could always switch to Finale, which at least doesn't play any music on startup - not even a finale).
That moment at the beginning of the 2nd's finale, when the low brass are grinding away, and the music seems to hang in the air like a giant rotating wheel. I've only heard Berglund get this right.
First movement of the 1st.
Wow, so many to name, and I agree with many you guys have mentioned.
More:
7th:
- a few min in, beginning at the end of the pastoral section, the rising figure leading to that briefly quicker syncopated and chromatic statement, then the recession and subsequent harmonic rise to the first glowing major trombone statement where the orchestra arrives at this endless radiant 9th chord...totally awe-inspiring
6th:
- The whole 1st mvmt! But especially the bit halfway through where the orchestra arrives at the merry syncopated dance, with the pizz strings and timpani
- Last mvmt, the main dramatic motif
3rd:
-1st mvmt - especially the latter middle, which seems very influenced by folk melodies
4th:
- the very mysterious ominous opening, in the low strings
1st:
- the opening motif of the Scherzo, and the way he has lines echo each other among sections throughout
- the finale - the Russian like middle section, and final couple of minutes
2nd:
-so many spots - but especially the emotional hymnlike middle of the Andante
-the unique long bass pizzicato opening the Andante
-the very opening of the symphony, which always seemed rather Beethovenian 6th to me, and is I think my favorite opening by far of any of his symphonies
-the way he features all sections at certain moments throughout
-of course, the lead up to the end of the 3rd mvmt into the 4th, and then the 2nd arrival, where the strings take the high octave in the last mvmt
-the melodies in the last mvmt, the very, very expressive lines in the strings
5th:
- the whole thing? :D
- okay, but especially the last mvmt, preferably taken with very, very broad tempos, and in the last mvmt..
- absolute favorite moment, maybe in any of his works: the overwhelming modulation at the big statement of the swan theme, that combination of the "swan" line and the woodwinds' soaring lines while the high strings tremelo away on sustained notes
- the romantic, yearning dark theme in the strings in the middle section - and the way he ends that statement in major, the last few notes, to setup the return to the "swan" theme
- the swells at the end of the mvmt, the way you think it has reached the climax but not...quite...and then...it finally does...
- the surprising ending (which threw me for a loop the first time I heard it)
I have to count Kullervo too, since it is often called a symphony..
Kullervo:
- in general, the sweeping themes, and strong basis in Finnish folk melodies
- 1st mvmt, change from minor to major/modulation about 5-6 min in
3rd mvmt:
- entrance of the choir! and the way he sets the text
- use of 5/4 meter, and the irregular accents
- the long orchestral interlude in the middle, with the groovy low brass ostinato
- the 4th mvmt - about 3-4 min in, the fanfare calls, first in the low brass, then horns and finally trumpets
- the long dramatic arc of the last mvmt
Quote from: Greta on February 28, 2008, 08:23:22 PM
Kullervo:
- in general, the sweeping themes, and strong basis in Finnish folk melodies
- 1st mvmt, change from minor to major/modulation about 5-6 min in
3rd mvmt:
- entrance of the choir! and the way he sets the text
- use of 5/4 meter, and the irregular accents
- the long orchestral interlude in the middle, with the groovy low brass ostinato
- the 4th mvmt - about 3-4 min in, the fanfare calls, first in the low brass, then horns and finally trumpets
- the long dramatic arc of the last mvmt
the Kullervo is really the only sym I like from Sibelius.
i tried the 6th as per Karl, and went into the 1st, didn't make it through either.
Once was a Sibeliusian, but not anymore :-X
Quote from: Greta on February 28, 2008, 08:23:22 PM
6th:
- The whole 1st mvmt!
Yes! But then, I hasten to add, the whole 3rd movement! :)
Excellent favourites you guys have come up with. I can only say - symphonies 3-7, with 6 still awaiting cracking... :-[ (Btw - I like Luke's observations about Sibelius' formal subtlety vs. Mahler's.)
The whole tone descent in the Fourth, and the opening to the Finale of the fifth, just as the ostinato begins to kick in.
Too many to mention - enough to say that when the 2008-9 CSO season was published recently I was like a kid in a sweet shop (or candy store) with both Sibelius 4 and 5 on the menu. 5 with Beethoven VC, and 4 with Shostakovish 5 - OMG!
Quote from: Greta on February 28, 2008, 08:23:22 PM
- absolute favorite moment, maybe in any of his works: the overwhelming modulation at the big statement of the swan theme, that combination of the "swan" line and the woodwinds' soaring lines while the high strings tremelo away on sustained notes
Yes!Quote from: Greta on February 28, 2008, 08:23:22 PM
- the surprising ending (which threw me for a loop the first time I heard it)
Must admit, the surprise ending and I are not yet friends. I feel like it sort of "snatches away" the glowing majesty of the ending which is in the middle of sending me into a rapturous state...
Also: 5th, second movement, the
very first pizzicato notes. There is so much feeling in them...
Still makes me mad, Brian, that I couldn't make it up to hear that performance of the 5th in December...but amazingly, there will be another chance, I saw it's on the new season for Houston, in the coming fall. ;)
Quote from: Brian on February 29, 2008, 08:49:37 PM
Must admit, the surprise ending and I are not yet friends. I feel like it sort of "snatches away" the glowing majesty of the ending which is in the middle of sending me into a rapturous state...
The first time I heard that, I was thinking "This is just stupid", but by the time it got to the final chord I thought "No wait, that's genius!". As Debussy once said, "Music is the silence between the notes." ;)
last few minutes of Symphony 3 and No 2, opening of Symphony 4 and 5.
Quote from: Jezetha on February 29, 2008, 07:31:23 AM
(Btw - I like Luke's observations about Sibelius' formal subtlety vs. Mahler's.)
Me too. Mahler's lack of discipline >:D is still a sticking point for me. On the other hand, I still wish Sibelius's symphonies were longer!
Best version I've heard of the closing chords of the 5th is, surprisingly, Barbirolli/EMI. I've also heard Ashkenazy, Berglund, Collins, Maazel, Rattle, Schmidt. With Barbirolli the intervals sounded rhythmic rather than random.
Climax in 4th symphony 3rd mov no doubt.
I describe this symphony as 'a sun beam on a Sunday morning on the Finnish snowy landscape' (I know, it's highly subjective opinion). I mean the Symphony No. 5 in E-flat major (even very appropriate tonality, with a nature heroism): it's an friendly show of the singular beauty of Finland, full of mystical essence. I think all the whole symphony has great and favorite moments!!
Nice, thanks.
Quote from: Brian on February 28, 2008, 06:39:26 AM
- the great string tune at the end of the second movement, Second Symphony
This. I believe Sibelius nicknamed this theme as "Christus". It's certainly a religious-like experience to be listening to it (or Sibelius in general).
In the 3rd Symphony, first movement toward the end when following pizzicato passage big "Lord of the Rings" theme emerges, first in winds and then even broader reiteration in strings and brass.
Quote from: Greta on February 28, 2008, 08:23:22 PM
5th
- absolute favorite moment, maybe in any of his works: the overwhelming modulation at the big statement of the swan theme, that combination of the "swan" line and the woodwinds' soaring lines while the high strings tremelo away on sustained notes
- the swells at the end of the mvmt, the way you think it has reached the climax but not...quite...and then...it finally does...
- the surprising ending (which threw me for a loop the first time I heard it)
Greta, you made my work easy 8)
Sarge
In the Fourth, there are:
- The emergence of the fanfares in the first movement from the murky beginning (and again in the "recapitulation")
- The tritone taking over the texture of the second movement and turning an upbeat scherzo into a malevolent one
- The final stirrings of the adagio before it sinks down into the abyss
- The tonal collisions that halt the attempts at a triumphant finale
Quote from: karlhenning on February 28, 2008, 04:18:26 AM
Whenever the harp appears in the Sixth, for one thing.
Well, I was going to post this, and then I decided to look at older posts. 8)
And all of this, too.
Quote from: karlhenning on February 28, 2008, 05:35:26 AM
The hemiola (and hemiola-ish) internal rhythm changes in the middle movement of the Third.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 28, 2008, 07:42:33 AM
From the 5th: the opening introduction and then the steady accelerando over some 8-9 minutes to the end of the movement. Then the last six chords of the finale with their widely separated rests and the final unison. I haven't heard that many recordings, but I have yet to hear one where the conductor gives those rests their full value, though.
Quote from: edward on February 28, 2008, 06:12:01 AM
Too many to list, but the one that towers above all others: the opening bars of the Sixth.
Quote from: karlhenning on February 29, 2008, 07:10:17 AM
Quote from: Greta on February 28, 2008, 08:23:22 PM
6th:
- The whole 1st mvmt! But especially the bit halfway through where the orchestra arrives at the merry syncopated dance, with the pizz strings and timpani
Yes! But then, I hasten to add, the whole 3rd movement! :)
Yes, agree with all the above. Sibelius symphonies are all favourite moments. And for me a not terribly obvious or showy one: at the beginning of no.7, after the scales and the A flat minor (!) chord, there's a bloom of F major horn tone against which the strings slide in with infinite care and subtlety on a B major triad. It's old JS saying: I'm going to throw a brick through this particular harmonic window, but I'm going to do it very very quietly.
First moment that comes to mind is the final bars of the 7th Symphony. The brass/woodwinds holding C major while the strings go from B to C, only to abruptly end. I always want to hear that C major last, but the jarring, short-lived, although triumphant moment is perfect. We don't need to hear more, we don't need to know more. It's almost like a swift, victorious scream. Unless you're Leonard Bernstein and hold it forever.
I've always likened this moment to a great film ending, one that shockingly ends abruptly, without warning, but has to as that's when the story ends. Like Ang Lee's The Ice Storm. If you've seen the film then you should understand my point (if you haven't I wouldn't mind ruining the movie for you). But as an audience we'd like to think we know where the story, or in Sibelius' case the music, is headed to if it continued. But this is where true artists show themselves. They know exactly how to stimulate their audience, and force them to get involved by not spoon-feeding every bit of emotion.
I've never seen the 7th performed live, but I would hope that the audience would allow that final chord to quietly disappear, and for silence to overtake the music for a few moments.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 18, 2017, 03:22:16 PM
First moment that comes to mind is the final bars of the 7th Symphony. The brass/woodwinds holding C major while the strings go from B to C, only to abruptly end. I always want to hear that C major last, but the jarring, short-lived, although triumphant moment is perfect. We don't need to hear more, we don't need to know more. It's almost like a swift, victorious scream. Unless you're Leonard Bernstein and hold it forever.
I've always likened this moment to a great film ending, one that shockingly ends abruptly, without warning, but has to as that's when the story ends. Like Ang Lee's The Ice Storm. If you've seen the film then you should understand my point (if you haven't I wouldn't mind ruining the movie for you). But as an audience we'd like to think we know where the story, or in Sibelius' case the music, is headed to if it continued. But this is where true artists show themselves. They know exactly how to stimulate their audience, and force them to get involved by not spoon-feeding every bit of emotion.
I've never seen the 7th performed live, but I would hope that the audience would allow that final chord to quietly disappear, and for silence to overtake the music for a few moments.
I agree with you. This is impossible to pick just one favorite moment from Sib's symphonies but that very hard won final resolution at the end of No. 7 is just so perfectly achieved. One of the things that makes him such a great symphonist is no two symphonies sound alike - he was just constantly evolving but each are immediately distinct and the creation of this unmistakable unique craftsman.
Opening of Symphony 4 and last section of symphonies 2 and 3.
When the chorale comes in for the very last time in the finale of No. 6, at the highest pitch and volume, sounding like a cross between a prayer and a scream.
All of the endings. In particular: end of No. 5 (the swan theme atomised into the simplest possible final cadence), end of first movement of No. 5 (maybe the most exciting ending to any piece of music?), end of scherzo of No. 4 (this ultra disturbed insane movement attempting to disappear into oblivion, with the completely superfluous timpani going bim bam bim), end of No. 3 (after going round and round his triumphant melody about 572309821 times Sibelius just goes "ok, we're ending now", and doesn't even allow the performers a crescendo on the final chord), end of No. 7 as already mentioned, end of second movement of No. 6, etc.....
The throbbing string lines in the first movement of No. 4 that pierce its darkness like rays of sunlight.
The development sections in the first movements of Nos. 3, 4 and 5, which sound less like developments and more like strong winds are buffeting the music around a desolate, barren landscape.
Every time he quietly turns a totally normal chord into what would be a grinding dissonance if we heard it in Schoenberg, but because it's Sibelius just sounds like two different planes of music have happened to intersect at an awkward angle.
The "big tune" near the end of the finale of Symphony No. 1, then the E minor conclusion of said symphony.
The buildup and segue from scherzo to finale in No. 2.
The horns in the finale of No. 5.
Sibelius, more than almost any other composer except perhaps Elliott Carter, was a master of organic rhythmic transformations. We first come across this in the 2nd movement of Symphony #1, where the tempo literally doubles in a gradual accelerando, then abruptly shifts back to exactly the opening tempo without losing a beat. Again, in (as has been mentioned) #2's transition between scherzo and finale. (And how many conductors mess it up by slowing too much and then having to readjust?) I think there are similar moments in every one of the Seven, but most masterful of all is how every transition in the Seventh flows without pause or apparent effort... ;D
5th
Listened to the finale with the score last night, two moments really stood out.
The first, after the first swan calling and a little back and forth between the strings and the woodwind, is the key change from E flat to G flat.
The second about midway being the time change from 2/4 to 3/2, with the additional tempo adjustment.
Although being very familiar with the music already this was a first listen with the score, and these moments listed above really were accentuated by better understanding the changes.
For most of high school the finale of the 5th was some of my favorite music. I've been away from it for too long.
I listened to Davis's recording on LSO Live for this, and it was very faithful to Sibelius' score with the exception of a few minor interpretative choices.
I especially like the first movement of the Second Symphony, and the first and third movements of the Fifth Symphony.