Since I will replace my Nakamichi RE 1, with a better piece, I invite some suggestion were I might go. Suggestion based on hearing and not only on price are appreciated.
The price limit is 1500,- euro's, since it is performing in my secondary system.
Harry, what are your requirements? I presume you're seeking an integrated. Phono section? If so, MM or MC?
Output power (or efficiency of speakers it will drive)? Off the top of my head I'd say you should probably at least audition the Creek 5350.
The present set-up is the RE 1, Meridian G08 cd player, Tannoy speakers Saturn S6L CR., Nordost Red Dawn cabling and interlinks.
Only used for classical music, and will need no high volumes.
Quote from: longears on February 29, 2008, 05:15:12 AM
Harry, what are your requirements? I presume you're seeking an integrated. Phono section? If so, MM or MC?
Output power (or efficiency of speakers it will drive)? Off the top of my head I'd say you should probably at least audition the Creek 5350.
Yes, integrated, no Phono.
50 watts will drive the speakers.
I will see if I can find the brand in Holland.
Thanks.
Looks good Longears.
Have experience with listening?
I'm partial to Naim Audio. Their SuperNait might be good for you. Creek is decent too although not quite in the same class.
Quote from: E d o on February 29, 2008, 11:15:34 AM
I'm partial to Naim Audio. Their SuperNait might be good for you. Creek is decent too although not quite in the same class.
Prices, links, etc....? :)
I'm a big Bryston fan. Very no-nonsense gear. They have a 20-year warranty. Not sure about the availability of their stuff in your area.
http://bryston.ca/ampsel.html
http://bryston.ca/intsel.html
I have a Portal Panache and love it. It's a great integrated for the price, which is USD 1800, which is about 1,200 Euros at the current exchange rate. I tried out many integrated amps before buying this one, and the Panache exceeded everything I tried for under $2000.
http://www.portalaudio.com/panache.html
Not sure if you'd use it, but its headphone amp is great as well... sounds better than my previous $400 dedicated headphone amp.
Quote from: Daverz on February 29, 2008, 03:14:58 PM
I'm a big Bryston fan. Very no-nonsense gear. They have a 20-year warranty. Not sure about the availability of their stuff in your area.
http://bryston.ca/ampsel.html
http://bryston.ca/intsel.html
Yes Daverz, there is a dealer, and I am going to check it out.
Do you have it yourself, and if, could you describe the sound, and other things you think are strong points of these Amplifiers?
Quote from: andy on February 29, 2008, 03:47:41 PM
I have a Portal Panache and love it. It's a great integrated for the price, which is USD 1800, which is about 1,200 Euros at the current exchange rate. I tried out many integrated amps before buying this one, and the Panache exceeded everything I tried for under $2000.
http://www.portalaudio.com/panache.html
Not sure if you'd use it, but its headphone amp is great as well... sounds better than my previous $400 dedicated headphone amp.
Looks good Andy, but no dealer in the Netherlands, alas.
CYRUS (http://www.cyrusaudio.com/content.asp?ContentID=21)
The Cyrus 8vs is "What Hi-Fi?" Amplifier of the Year for 2007 in the £750-1500 bracket. I bought it, together with the matching PSX power supply, about 18 months ago, before it won the accolade.
The choice of this amplifier choice was based on reviewing several others at a leading UK retailer's demo room. I bought both items together and the total price was £1500, but the Cyrus 8vs is an integrated amp and thus works on its own. I didn't actually notice a vast difference in the shop's demo room with and without the PSX, but it didn't take long once I got it home and "warmed up" to appreciate the advantage of the PSX in combination with the amp. Moreover, it's kit that's built to last and has an extremely high quality feel about it. You still see earlier versions of this product, eg the Cyrus 1 and Cyrus 2 which were made some 20 years ago, being sold on E Bay.
(http://www.cyrusaudio.com/prd_downloads/8vs2_full.jpg)
Quote from: Harry on February 29, 2008, 11:43:22 PM
Yes Daverz, there is a dealer, and I am going to check it out.
Do you have it yourself, and if, could you describe the sound, and other things you think are strong points of these Amplifiers?
I have a B-60 integrated with the MM phono section, which I used to drive Dunlavy SC-IIIs. I don't think an amp should really have a sound, but if pressed to give a subjective impression I guess I would say it is warm and vibrant sounding. According to Bryston, it shouldn't be used with speakers that present a load much below 4 Ohms.
Yes this Cyrus is a serious option indeed. Friends of mine have the 1 or two at home, for what seems to be a eternity now.
So I will put this in serious consideration.
Could you try to describe the sound as you hear it.
What are the characteristics of the 8vs Topaz?
Quote from: Daverz on March 01, 2008, 12:49:12 AM
I have a B-60 integrated with the MM phono section, which I used to drive Dunlavy SC-IIIs. I don't think an amp should really have a sound, but if pressed to give a subjective impression I guess I would say it is warm and vibrant sounding. According to Bryston, it shouldn't be used with speakers that present a load much below 4 Ohms.
Well thats not a problem for my Tannoys Saturns.
Warm you say, right. I allready spoke with the dealer, and will call me next week back, to come with some amplifiers, and let me try.
Quote from: Harry on March 01, 2008, 12:51:23 AM
Yes this Cyrus is a serious option indeed. Friends of mine have the 1 or two at home, for what seems to be a eternity now.
So I will put this in serious consideration.
Could you try to describe the sound as you hear it.
What are the characteristics of the 8vs Topaz?
Regarding the 8vs, I'd say that it is highly suitable for classical music, which is my main interest( 99%). It has a very detailed sound with fast pacing, good mid-range and accurate bass.
My full system is;
• Cyrus 8vs/PSX-R amplifier
• Arcam Diva CD 192 CD player
• Spendor S5e floorstanding speakers
• Cyrus interconnect; Cyrus speaker cable.
However, I'm in the process of moving over completely to a PC based system, rather than using my CD player. The PC is far more convenient in accessing material for comparison and for generally playing about. I find CD's ripped at 320 kbps MP3 to be OK although for some material there's an advantage in using WMA lossless. I use a Creative Labs X-fi "Extreme Music" sound card in a Packard Bell Quad Core PC. The interconnects between sound card and Amp are "Chord Company" i-chords for both play and record. I do quite a bit of recording using a Denon Tuner, mainly the BBC's Radio 3 DAB broadcasts at 192 kbps.
Incidentally, I have several other amplifiers: a Cyrus 2/PSX; a NAD 352; Cambridge Azur 640 Mk II. Of these, the Cyrus 2/PSX purchased in 1989 sounds far better than either of the other two. It's a laugh isn't it, but it's true. I recently got in touch with the Cyrus factory in Huntingdon to inquire about a new headphone socket for the Cyrus 2. They duly supplied me with one at a cost of £4.69, including p&p. The staff were very helpful. How about that, for a piece of kit nearly 20 years old?
Quote from: Topaz on March 01, 2008, 01:26:56 AM
Regarding the 8vs, I'd say that it is highly suitable for classical music, which is my main interest( 99%). It has a very detailed sound with fast pacing, good mid-range and accurate bass.
My full system is;
• Cyrus 8vs/PSX-R amplifier
• Arcam Diva CD 192 CD player
• Spendor S5e floorstanding speakers
• Cyrus interconnect; Cyrus speaker cable.
However, I'm in the process of moving over completely to a PC based system, rather than using my CD player. The PC is far more convenient in accessing material for comparison and for generally playing about. I find CD's ripped at 320 kbps MP3 to be OK although for some material there's an advantage in using WMA lossless. I use a Creative Labs X-fi "Extreme Music" sound card in a Packard Bell Quad Core PC. The interconnects between sound card and Amp are "Chord Company" i-chords for both play and record. I do quite a bit of recording using a Denon Tuner, mainly the BBC's Radio 3 DAB broadcasts at 192 kbps.
Incidentally, I have several other amplifiers: a Cyrus 2/PSX; a NAD 352; Cambridge Azur 640 Mk II. Of these, the Cyrus 2/PSX purchased in 1989 sounds far better than either of the other two. It's a laugh isn't it, but it's true. I recently got in touch with the Cyrus factory in Huntingdon to inquire about a new headphone socket for the Cyrus 2. They duly supplied me with one at a cost of £4.69, including p&p. The staff were very helpful. How about that, for a piece of kit nearly 20 years old?
The Arcam Diva I heard a while ago, good, but a tad warm to my taste, I like clean sound, like the Meridian G08 I have now.
The Spendor's are very good.
The Cyrus interconnects or speaker cable is unknown to me.
I use NordOst Red Dawn at the moment.
So a second hand Cyrus 2 would also be a good option huh?
And the service is indeed, perfect, but I had the same thing with Musical Fidelity and Quad when using their equipment.
Typical British? :)
Sorry Harry, I won't suggest anything. Why? Because in the end you will buy what you really want instead of what is recommended to you. I don't know what you want. Trust yourself and buy what you want, you don't need our acceptance for your purchase.
Since we all have different tastes, recommendations are almost worthless. Nobody has ever recommended the music of Tangerine Dream to me and now that I have found their music I wish someone had done that years ago... ...instead I have been recommended all kinds of music that has left me cold. I have also seen how pointless promoting Elgar is. I won't recommend his (or anyone else's) music anymore to anyone. We must find our favorites yourself. We just can't predict how other people will react to music (or other things) we enjoy.
Quote from: 71 dB on March 01, 2008, 02:56:12 AM
Sorry Harry, I won't suggest anything. Why? Because in the end you will buy what you really want instead of what is recommended to you. I don't know what you want. Trust yourself and buy what you want, you don't need our acceptance for your purchase.
Since we all have different tastes, recommendations are almost worthless. Nobody has ever recommended the music of Tangerine Dream to me and now that I have found their music I wish someone had done that years ago... ...instead I have been recommended all kinds of music that has left me cold. I have also seen how pointless promoting Elgar is. I won't recommend his (or anyone else's) music anymore to anyone. We must find our favorites yourself. We just can't predict how other people will react to music (or other things) we enjoy.
I understand what you are saying and meaning
Poju, but I slightly differ with what you are saying. Of course I know what I want, but in this middle of the road equipment world my knowledge is limited, and therefore this info coming from the posters is very useful.
I was not aware of the excellent Creek amplifiers, and forgot completely about the Cyrus. Bryston looks good to, and these I will try first. The Creek will be delivered in two weeks, also to try, and with Cyrus I have to see, if I can find a second hand two model. Naim is not really my thing, and certainly from what I heard, not my sound in classical music. Little enough of them brands are neutral in their sound. A second hand Musical Fidelity 308, is also a option.
So, yes these recommendations are very useful, but I see your point too.
Quote from: 71 dB on March 01, 2008, 02:56:12 AM
Sorry Harry, I won't suggest anything. Why? Because in the end you will buy what you really want instead of what is recommended to you. I don't know what you want. Trust yourself and buy what you want, you don't need our acceptance for your purchase.
Since we all have different tastes, recommendations are almost worthless. Nobody has ever recommended the music of Tangerine Dream to me and now that I have found their music I wish someone had done that years ago... ...instead I have been recommended all kinds of music that has left me cold. I have also seen how pointless promoting Elgar is. I won't recommend his (or anyone else's) music anymore to anyone. We must find our favorites yourself. We just can't predict how other people will react to music (or other things) we enjoy.
A few good points here. However, I think that Harry clearly knows a lot about hi-fi and is only looking for a few ideas that may be useful in supplementing his own. I can see that the Cyrus 8vs was probably already on his short list, as well it should be given the highly favourable reviews it's had.
I too like
Tangerine Dream. I used to listen to electronica a lot more than I do now. This site (with due respect to the management and other members) is not the best for non-classical. I used to like DDD for that. It also used to have a very good classical section at one time but it's fallen by the wayside over the past year or so. I think that the problem may be that at DDD one has to register to find out what's going on in there.
The good news is, that one of my friends is willing to sell his Cyrus two, for almost nothing. If I like it, I will send it to be serviced, to get a pristine amplifier back. But first listen to it. :)
Quote from: Topaz on March 01, 2008, 03:30:34 AM
A few good points here. However, I think that Harry clearly knows a lot about hi-fi and is only looking for a few ideas that may be useful in supplementing his own. I can see that the Cyrus 8vs was probably already on his short list, as well it should be given the highly favourable reviews it's had.
There are
minor differences between amplifier, differences I cannot fully understand but I have my theories (don't ask, I won't repeat my mistakes explaining my weird theories). In the end the price/desings/brand etc. are much more important than the differences in sound. Personally I'm fixated to NAD and I am not interested of other brands. I want
Soft Clipping and
EARS in my amp and other brands don't have them. I want cost-effective performance and NAD has that. However, I don't recommend NAD to anyone. If Harry wants Cyrus he better buy one. If a Naim makes Harry happy he should buy it. Harry must know 100 times more about this issue than I and I respect that. I stay quiet.
Quote from: Topaz on March 01, 2008, 03:30:34 AMI too like Tangerine Dream. I used to listen to electronica a lot more than I do now. This site (with due respect to the management and other members) is not the best for non-classical. I used to like DDD for that. It also used to have a very good classical section at one time but it's fallen by the wayside over the past year or so. I think that the problem may be that at DDD one has to register to find out what's going on in there.
Nice to hear You like TD. I don't know DDD-forum.
Quote from: Harry on March 01, 2008, 03:44:38 AM
The good news is, that one of my friends is willing to sell his Cyrus two, for almost nothing. If I like it, I will send it to be serviced, to get a pristine amplifier back. But first listen to it. :)
Here's a cheaper alternative. Remove the cover. Get an air duster and give it a good blow out. The mode selector contacts can oxidise, causing an apparent interference on some modes. But all you do is place a drop or two of sewing machine oil on the contacts from inside the box as you twiddle the selector. Then clean the outside rear sockets with a suitable proprietary contact cleaner. Mine's as good as the day I bought it, and I'd never sell it. See if you can acquire a matching PSX, concurrent with the Cyrus 1/2 range. The result will be like a good "classic car".
Quote from: Topaz on March 01, 2008, 04:03:33 AM
Here's a cheaper alternative. Remove the cover. Get an air duster and give it a good blow out. The mode selector contacts can oxidise, causing an apparent interference on some modes. But all you do is place a drop or two of sewing machine oil on the contacts from inside the box as you twiddle the selector. Then clean the outside rear sockets with a suitable proprietary contact cleaner. Mine's as good as the day I bought it, and I'd never sell it. See if you can acquire a matching PSX, concurrent with the Cyrus 1/2 range. The result will be like a good "classic car".
That is enough? Just cleaning it inside and clean the contacts.
O, and it is with a matching PSX.
Quote from: 71 dB on March 01, 2008, 03:53:40 AM
There are minor differences between amplifier, differences I cannot fully understand but I have my theories (don't ask, I won't repeat my mistakes explaining my weird theories). In the end the price/desings/brand etc. are much more important than the differences in sound. Personally I'm fixated to NAD and I am not interested of other brands. I want Soft Clipping and EARS in my amp and other brands don't have them. I want cost-effective performance and NAD has that. However, I don't recommend NAD to anyone. If Harry wants Cyrus he better buy one. If a Naim makes Harry happy he should buy it. Harry must know 100 times more about this issue than I and I respect that. I stay quiet.
Nice to hear You like TD. I don't know DDD-forum.
I had several amplifiers from NAD in the past, but they are not really my brand, not clean enough in the mid range, and too fussy.
Hi, Harry. I don't have a 5350, but if I were seeking a new integrated in that price range it would be among the first I'd audition. I do have a much older Creek, a 4040 bought in the early '90s, that I still use. The sound is what I think of as "good British"--clean, extended enough for my middle aged hearing, adequate (but not the tightest) bass control, a sweet midrange that lets vocals sound natural, and without any of that etched, hyper-detailed quality that affects a notable segment of the high-end. In short, "musical." One thing I like about Creek is their good phono modules for a reasonable price. Yes, I'm a bit of a fan--one of my friends used to be a Creek dealer and he put me onto them. I like the little guys who make the stuff as a passion--a hobby that grew into a business--and who care more about music reproduction than about gizmos...and who respect their customers enough to care about value rather than about bragging rights among the class with too much disposable income and not enough sense.
Anthony Michaelson seems similar to Mike Creek in that respect. I know you're aware of Musical Fidelity's fine qualities and the second-hand 308 certainly bears considering. I almost bought one years ago and I've no complaints with the MF integrated I'm currently using, an A5. Basically, I want equipment that just works, that passes the music through without calling attention to itself, and that's not all dolled-up with frivolous bells and whistles.
Quote from: longears on March 01, 2008, 04:45:25 AM
Hi, Harry. I don't have a 5350, but if I were seeking a new integrated in that price range it would be among the first I'd audition. I do have a much older Creek, a 4040 bought in the early '90s, that I still use. The sound is what I think of as "good British"--clean, extended enough for my middle aged hearing, adequate (but not the tightest) bass control, a sweet midrange that lets vocals sound natural, and without any of that etched, hyper-detailed quality that affects a notable segment of the high-end. In short, "musical." One thing I like about Creek is their good phono modules for a reasonable price. Yes, I'm a bit of a fan--one of my friends used to be a Creek dealer and he put me onto them. I like the little guys who make the stuff as a passion--a hobby that grew into a business--and who care more about music reproduction than about gizmos...and who respect their customers enough to care about value rather than about bragging rights among the class with too much disposable income and not enough sense.
Anthony Michaelson seems similar to Mike Creek in that respect. I know you're aware of Musical Fidelity's fine qualities and the second-hand 308 certainly bears considering. I almost bought one years ago and I've no complaints with the MF integrated I'm currently using, an A5. Basically, I want equipment that just works, that passes the music through without calling attention to itself, and that's not all dolled-up with frivolous bells and whistles.
I 100% agree with your assessment about a guy making this stuff his passion, and so I buy most of my stuff with a small shop that has dedicated owners.
The 308 is still a option, but I will audition the Creek in a week, and see what I make of it.
This is what I currently use:
(http://i1.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/87/bb/d175_1_b.JPG)
I'll give it another 30 years and maybe start looking for something else. ;)
Quote from: Harry on March 01, 2008, 04:35:58 AM
I had several amplifiers from NAD in the past, but they are not really my brand, not clean enough in the mid range, and too fussy.
There you go, what is good for me is not good for you.
If you want your system to sound better, get better speakers and feed them with sufficient power, which means if you think you need 100wpc you really need 200wpc to get the full dynamic range.
I would get something like this:
(http://nadelectronics.com/img/resampled/060619152507-430-C325BEE_3_4.jpg)
The NAD 325, lineal descendent of the legendary 3020. An excellent basic integrated amp to feed a 2.1 system, with 2 small speakers like this:
(http://www.psbspeakers.com//Images/Speakers/Alpha1/Alpha_LR1.jpg)
This is PSB's current small speaker, the Alpha B1 monitor. Accurate and efficient (91dB), you can run it on a low power integrated like the above.
When you have the cash, add a sub like this one:
(http://www.outlawaudio.com/images/lfm2-rear.jpg)
Outlaws LFM-2 goes down to 28 Hz in a small (8" driver) package.
Now for the last step in a 2.1 channel system, you would get a power amp and run it from the pre-outs on the integrated, and this one is the kind you want:
(http://www.avgiant.com/core/media/media.nl?id=17958&c=661335&h=1a2cba1151b9c2468de8)
The Crown XLS 202D pro amp will blow away most "audiophile" amps costing 5 times as much.
What would this cost?
~$700 for integrated amp and speakers
Then later ~$300 for the sub.
The last step, the power amp that takes it into audiophile territory, is an additional ~$300.
The best part is that at every stage you have a great sounding fully functional system, which you can improve without discarding anything. Also, the brands are not that important, and you can find substitutes for all of these that will do just as well. It's the concept of building a system on a solid workable foundation that counts.
So, for a final investment of ~$1300 you will have a 2 channel system that does what you want, and you won't have to pay a fortune to get it. :)
Well in the end I bought a second hand Bryston amplifier and a pre from Audiolab, class A, 8000c.
And well satisfied I am, still 10 years warranty on it.
Quote from: Harry on February 29, 2008, 11:43:22 PM
Yes Daverz, there is a dealer, and I am going to check it out.
Do you have it yourself, and if, could you describe the sound, and other things you think are strong points of these Amplifiers?
All Bryston amps have a 20-year warranty. This may be true for an integrated as well.