I haven't actually heard this guy's music, but what do people think of him?
Did anyone hear the recent cello concerto 'Azul' premiered by Ma and the Boston Symphony Orchestra?
I only have The Dreams and Prayers of Isaac the Blind played by the Kronos Quartet. On hearing it for the first time I was completely amazed. But, unfortunately, that first impression wore off pretty quickly on repeat listening. I still find the opening of that piece very moving but the rest seems quite forgetable (in fact, the more I listen to it the less I remember ;D). People keep recommending the Dawn Upshaw disc so I'm definitely going to try that one day.
I tried to revive one of the many Golijov threads in the old GMG, but it didn't work. He is one of our major new composers of fascinating music, operas, instrumentals and anything else done with voice and instruments!
I discovered him with his Yiddishbbuk and from there it just went on and on. I recommend him highly! 8)
Anyone else listen to Ayre? Hard to even imagine that being classified as classical music, yet probably the only reason it is is because it couldn't be classified as any other type of music (if you put the whole thing together, not just looking at one movement each).
'Ayre' is a really exciting piece. That whole disc with the Berio works superbly.
My favourite disc of his is 'Ainadamar' a one act opera based round the death of Lorca. I cannot see it being staged effectively, but it is superb opera of the mind. Especially listening on headphones, you really enter a different world. There are a couple of stretches where the music melts into a sort of timeless haze, very beautiful. There is plenty of excitement and even memorable tunes. Upshaw transforms herself into a much more earthy being than we are accustomed to hearing her enact.
His St Mark's Passion (edit, thanks Robert) is a truly awful piece, mariachi meets mediocrity a serving of stale salsa as side dish.
He will have a new disc out in July performed by the Kronos Quartet, Tenebre, an adaptation of an earlier work, sans the vocals.
So far I have had two palpable hits and one decided miss with him. I sense he is exploring different influences so furiously that he has not yet found his voice, but when it arrives, it will be both exotic and exciting.
Mike
Quote from: Guido on April 30, 2007, 04:04:57 PM
I haven't actually heard this guy's music, but what do people think of him?
Did anyone hear the recent cello concerto 'Azul' premiered by Ma and the Boston Symphony Orchestra?
I have mixed feelings.....I kind of like his Saint Marks Passion a mini opera with a latin/jazz feel...I agree he is looking for an identity but until he finds it, Im kind of enjoying his search.
And this is his appeal to me: Following him in his search and savour all the steps he is taking. Started out with Kletzmer, something I knew only because of the ancient play and movie: Fiddler on the Roof; Golijov sent me on a search for more of this kind of music, made me a fan and in the process discovered the phenomenal clarinetist David Kraukauer. My next discovery because of Golijov was Latino music; until then I believed the local mariachi band was the one and only genuine Latin sound. Dawn Upshaw I knew from Adam's el niño but not the unusual range of her voice as in Ayre.
Wonder what next Golijov will teach me and introduce me to! 8)
Lis, What CDs of Kletzmer do you recommend? I quite fance buying some.
Mike
The first one coming to my mind is a Naxos disc: Klezmer Concertos and Encores from the Milken collection of American Jewish Music. 8)
Hmm... This is interesting: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/03/osvaldo-golijov-in-london.html
Also: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/stale-ayre.html
I do know that he has recieved many adulatory reviews in the American press, but London folks all seem a little more skeptical.
Thanks Guido, I can understand the reservations and agree with some of the adverse remarks, but I do respond to at least some of his music and hope he develops.
Mike
Quote from: Guido on April 30, 2007, 04:04:57 PM
Did anyone hear the recent cello concerto 'Azul' premiered by Ma and the Boston Symphony Orchestra?
LOL, somehow on rereading this thread what I saw there was:
'Azul' premiered by
Me and the Boston Symphony Orchestra
Hopefully, Guido, that was a glimpse of your future invading my brain! ;D
I have to agree with the American critics in that Golijov is one of the most important composers today... I don't think his work is particularly deep... yet. But, it's important because of it's broad appeal. Golijov is the type of composer who can appeal to people my age (mid-20s) who like more complicated pop-ish music and are looking to expand their horizons.
In the review that Guido linked of Ayre, the reviewer's main complaint is that Upshaw makes such "ugly" sounds in the piece. Clearly the guy doesn't get the music. I personally love the sounds she makes on the record... they are interesting and give the music a gritty feel that a lesser singer couldn't achieve.
I don't think that Golijov's current work can be compared with Beethoven et al., but rather, should be compared with the likes of Bjork and Radiohead. That is, it's challenging pop music, but easy (from a music theory point of view) easy classical music. Works like Ainadamar and Ayre appeal to my friends who don't like classical music, but want more than what's played on the radio.
The little bit of Golijov I've heard I've enjoyed enormously. (Unfortunately, I've not heard any of his large works yet.) On her CD Voices of Light, Dawn Upshaw does Golijov's Lúa descolorida, and to my ears it's one of the best things of the entire recording (which is excellent). Quite beautiful.
And I heard Last Round live recently (by two combined string quartets) and absolutely loved it. There is this recording of it that came out in January - might be the one Lis was referring to - which I haven't heard, but it appears to be the only recording of the piece so far.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/61VSHEZWD1L._AA240_.jpg)
--Bruce
Quote from: andy on August 17, 2007, 08:06:36 AM
I have to agree with the American critics in that Golijov is one of the most important composers today... I don't think his work is particularly deep... yet.
He has not, in your opinion produced work that is deep, but he is one of the most important composers? Oof.
That's all; just "oof."
I have not heard his music but I am pretty tired of Amazon recommending everything by him every freakin' time I buy a CD. I also don't generally like the things Kronos and Dawn Upshaw go for.
Quote from: karlhenning on August 17, 2007, 11:10:23 AM
He has not, in your opinion produced work that is deep, but he is one of the most important composers? Oof.
That's all; just "oof."
Important in that because of him, people will come to the concert hall who might not otherwise. Musically... so far, not very important.
Quote from: Corey on August 17, 2007, 08:30:57 PM
I have not heard his music but I am pretty tired of Amazon recommending everything by him every freakin' time I buy a CD. I also don't generally like the things Kronos and Dawn Upshaw go for.
i think that's half the reason he's so popular, there's only zillions of ads for his CDs, not to mention in my old Borders it was one of the featured CDs (i don't know how else to put it)
I heard once or twice The Dreams and Prayers of Isaac the Blind and I find it very interesting. Yiddishbbuk is amazing.
I haven't seen anyone mention that he made arangements for Kronos Quartet: Nuevo.
Ainadimar I find very populistic, and on the other hand it's a modern aproach to the opera.
I don't know if I like it or not. It gets to popish sometimes ;)
Quote from: greg on September 16, 2007, 02:47:16 PM
i think that's half the reason he's so popular, there's only zillions of ads for his CDs, not to mention in my old Borders it was one of the featured CDs (i don't know how else to put it)
So why does that count against him? Shouldn't there be more, not less, publicity for modern composers?
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on September 19, 2007, 04:39:44 PM
So why does that count against him? Shouldn't there be more, not less, publicity for modern composers?
It doesn't necessarily count against him, but lets face it: historically speaking, more advertised has never meant better. A lot of people become skeptical after a while. But I am all for a modern composer getting more notice. I just hope many people can get past his pretty melodies or whatever it is that makes Golijov popular (I haven't heard his music).
I just put a CD of his in my Amazon wishlist, so I'll get a taste soon enough.
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on September 19, 2007, 04:39:44 PM
So why does that count against him? Shouldn't there be more, not less, publicity for modern composers?
that's what makes me happy about the advertising, though ;D
he's modern, and promoted :o
i just wish they'd advertise other modern composers, too (besides Glass and Adams)
I attended a performance of Ainadamar in Boulder, Colorado. As usual when at classical music concerts, I was among the youngest, oh say, 10% of the audience. I'm 24, and most in attendance had gray hair.
Anyhow, I think the audience really enjoyed the piece. I'm sure most of them had never heard it before, but it certainly makes for a good performance. I don't think Ainadamar will be remembered for too long, but I think it's representative of something that's necessary in our culture; that is, it gives intelligent music pop appeal. Not to mention, it has a good, easily digested story.
I hope that only 1 in 20 of Golijov's work is as poppy as Ainadamar, but that 5% is good to have if you want new fans. Obnoxious as it may be, a little marketing will help your average composer and may even help classic music as a whole.
I'll get to meet Golijov in February when he comes to OSU for the Contemporary Music Festival. I'll let you guys know what unfolds.
Quote from: Catison on September 19, 2007, 08:33:00 PM
It doesn't necessarily count against him, but lets face it: historically speaking, more advertised has never meant better.
No, that's stating it exactly backwards. Historically, inferior music has been advertised more (as in Britney Spears inferior). There is a difference.
Whatever his shortcomings may be, Golijov is a real composer and it cheers me that it has met there is a composer whose work has attracted enough attention to make such advertisements worthwhile.
Ainadamar makes a superb opera of the mind. The DGG recording is skilfully done and the piece has plenty of memorable things about it. Apart from some catchy tunes, there are a couple of places where the music melts into timelessness. He used percussive sounds very cleverly. I have not seen it and would have thought it might be difficult to stage. It is a short piece, but feels very substantial.
Mike
If you could ask Golijov one question, what would it be?
Quote from: btpaul674 on January 25, 2008, 07:18:35 AM
If you could ask Golijov one question, what would it be?
Hmmm... I would have to say something about the balance he tries to strike in his music between popular appeal and musical theory. Many of his compositions are quite appealing, even catchy. Does he worry that this will hurt his classical cred?
Or maybe on his synthesis of latin music with the European tradition...
Quote from: btpaul674 on January 25, 2008, 07:18:35 AM
If you could ask Golijov one question, what would it be?
When are you going to be working on your next string quartet? Really love
Tenebrae! :)
Thanks for your replies. The situation is Golijov is coming to OSU and I in a 4 person forum that asks Golijov questions in front of the school of music.
I've decided to ask him about his relationship with Dawn Upshaw; how it is working with her and what qualities about her inspire his music he has written for her. This is relevent since Upshaw is coming to OSU as well.
Quote from: btpaul674 on January 25, 2008, 01:58:44 PM
Thanks for your replies. The situation is Golijov is coming to OSU and I in a 4 person forum that asks Golijov questions in front of the school of music.
I've decided to ask him about his relationship with Dawn Upshaw; how it is working with her and what qualities about her inspire his music he has written for her. This is relevent since Upshaw is coming to OSU as well.
I think is definitely a good topic to ask him about. I really like Ayre, and I especially love the things Upshaw does with her voice in it. I read a review once where the guy bashed Ayre because Dawn Upshaw has such a beautiful voice, but she does ugly things with it in Ayre. Talk about not getting it!
Anyhow, sounds like a great topic, and I hope you post here to tell us about his visit!
After reading my prior post, I realize the wording I chose is incoherent and in some places erroneous. I was distracted... sorry.
Apparently other questions that are to ensue cover his background with Klezmer and Tango Nuevo as well as working with diverse musicians such as Zakir Hussain, Yo-Yo Ma, and The Kronos Quartet.
Columbus Symphony Orchestra is performing Three Songs for Soprano and Orchestra and Last Round on Feb. 1st with guest conductor Scott Yoo.
I heard "Azul" and "Ausencia" in December in Boston with Yo Yo Ma and the BSO conducted by some dude called Harth-Bedoya who after the intermission acted the maestro while the BSO autopiloted through Dvořák 8.
Ma played very well and very expressively and the music was quite interesting to listen to, but I can't say I really got inside it. This was more or less my first exposure to Golijov's music, so I didn't expect to "get" it. But it sounded interesting enough to return to it sometime. My first impression was of a lot of ideas, but really no structure, more like a composed improvisation, if you know what I mean. Or maybe I just didn't see the structures.
Thankyou for answering my initial question! I imagine it will be recorded at some point - the most successful recording cellist along with maybe the most successful contemporary composer will surely convince the record companies.
Well, it's too late for that - Rostropovich passed away last year. I agree, it would have been great if he had recorded Glass' cello concerto. I really like the piece a lot. I played in the US premiere in November.
Oh really? I have to say that its one of my least favourite pieces of Glass... Once of his least interesting pieces, and really quite badly written for the cello (and was even worse before Julian Lloyd Webber intervened - was he the soloist incidentally?). Rostropovich didn't play any concertos that were composed during his adult lifetime that he didn't comission (almost without exception). An odd quirk which meant that he comissioned a second Jolivet concerto instead of playing the first, also true of Schnittke, Penderecki, Hoddinott, Matthews, (a few others that I can't recall) and also he didn't play the Walton and Barber concertos, to note the two most obvious and finest examples of his neglect. (The only exceptions being: Hindemith's concerto of 1940 he played on three occasions, and the Prokofiev concerto he played once before Prokofiev reworked it into the Symphony concerto. He played the Honegger and Milhaud (1st) concertos too but they were composed before he had started the cello)
I was sure that Yo-Yo Ma had sold more CDs than Rostropovich. I can't remember where I had read that.
P.S. Do you play Double Bass? Which orchestra do you play with?
I used to be co-principal bass with the La Jolla Symphony in San Diego, but since I am moving to Boston next week, I won't be able to play with that orchestra anymore. The soloist was Wendy Sutter. She played the concerto much better than JLW on the recording. Actually, Glass (he attended the final rehearsals and the performances) said he didn't like the way JLW played the piece at all.
QuoteActually, Glass (he attended the final rehearsals and the performances) said he didn't like the way JLW played the piece at all.
Ooh controversy, - did he say why? I haven't heard of Wendy Sutter - I will look her up. I think the central movement is just too long, and aside from the arresting opening figure, it just meanders too much, but maybe a better performance might make it more convincing.
Quote from: andy on January 25, 2008, 10:51:15 AM
Hmmm... I would have to say something about the balance he tries to strike in his music between popular appeal and musical theory. Many of his compositions are quite appealing, even catchy. Does he worry that this will hurt his classical cred?
I think it's so sad that composers have to make that kind of a choice. We complain that nobody likes classical music, we complain that nobody into classical music likes new music, and then turn around and complain when a composer comes along and writes something that people like.
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on January 27, 2008, 05:39:25 AM
I think it's so sad that composers have to make that kind of a choice. We complain that nobody likes classical music, we complain that nobody into classical music likes new music, and then turn around and complain when a composer comes along and writes something that people like.
Very well said! No matter what, someone will always find something to complain about.
Quote from: Guido on January 27, 2008, 02:49:03 AM
Ooh controversy, - did he say why? I haven't heard of Wendy Sutter - I will look her up. I think the central movement is just too long, and aside from the arresting opening figure, it just meanders too much, but maybe a better performance might make it more convincing.
Yes, he did, but I don't remember exactly what he said. I have to ask the concertmaster, he was there when we talked about that, too, maybe his memory is better than mine. I am getting old. ::)
The performance was also filmed and will be broadcast by UCSD-TV in February. I think that program will also contain comments by Glass and Sutter, and the conductor, Steven Schick. Dunno if the basses can be seen well in the video, but we did have a camera point at us from the other side of the podium, so maybe you can also see the M and its bass section in action. There are actually some very nice passages for the basses in there. So it was definitely a lot of fun to play. Apart from that, I also liked to listen to the music because for me it has a very strong personal voice. It is fairly simple and plain but doesn't sound trite or kitschy to me at all, in fact, it sounds somehow "modern", of our time, but there is a personal element and an expressiveness in there that I miss from a lot of modern pieces.
I hope someone records it and puts it on Youtube. I live in England, so won't be able to get that channel.
I was thinking of getting a copy for myself. I don't know yet if I will pas it on though, that depends on whether I look god in it or not. ;D
So I met Golijov today as the Contemporary Music Festival has begun this year at OSU. I will provide a very detailed account of what when on through the festival, including many notes from a small seminar he gave to a handful of OSU composers, myself included. What to expect: Insight into his film scoring, personal notes on his Cello Concerto, and what's ahead for Mr. Golijov. I'll post again here after the festival concludes.
Quote from: btpaul674 on January 30, 2008, 07:34:23 PM
So I met Golijov today as the Contemporary Music Festival has begun this year at OSU. I will provide a very detailed account of what when on through the festival, including many notes from a small seminar he gave to a handful of OSU composers, myself included. What to expect: Insight into his film scoring, personal notes on his Cello Concerto, and what's ahead for Mr. Golijov. I'll post again here after the festival concludes.
Right on. I'm looking forward to hearing about it!
Quote from: andy on January 31, 2008, 01:32:42 PM
Right on. I'm looking forward to hearing about it!
Sounds great--I'd be interested to hear about it, too.
--Bruce
So at The Ohio State University School of Music this past week has been the Contemporary Music Festival featuring guest composer Osvaldo Golijov. The festival is comprised of a series of concerts performing faculty composer works as well as Golijov's chamber, vocal, and orchestral works.
I first met Golijov in a small composer's seminar meeting where he was invited to answer our questions and listen to his music as he shares insight. We first started talking about his soundtrack to Francis Ford Coppola's Youth Without Youth which is for strings, percussion, squeezebox (accordion if you will), cimbaloms, and celeste. Woodwinds and brass are absent from the soundtrack. We went listening through most of the tracks, and often Golijov would cite Herrmann and Korngold as influences, and stealing harmonies from Bizet for the love theme. He was also influenced by Messiaen's Illuminations of the Beyond and Bartok's Music for Strings Percussion and Celesta as influences for the track named Powers. He cites Strauss' Metamorphosen for Dr. Rudolph's Dream. As for scoring for films, Golijov was very careful in discerning that he is not a film score composer, just someone who adds sound tracks. He adds,
"Film allows you to explore things I wouldn't explore otherwise."
also,
"a lot of things you think matter a lot in film scoring really don't matter."
In talking about writing a catchy melody for the love theme, he was asked about its possible commercial success. Golijov meandered into jokingly saying,
"I take everything very seriously. If I could write a successful pop song and go away I would, but I am not that talented."
The next topic covered in the seminar was his Cello Concerto Azul which was premiered recently. He brought in his own live recording of Yo-Yo Ma with the Boston Symphony Orchestra. The material in his string quartet Tenebrae was the source of the material for Azul. I am aware that this concerto is not yet commercially recorded (I think) but let me tell you, this concerto was intense! It was riddled with beautiful melodies, haunting Golijovian atmospheres, and what he described the ending to be the "End of the Universe." The first movement was a Passacaglia that he desribed "grew organically." We did not listen to the 2nd movement. The third movement is a cello, accordion and percussion scherzo/dance in G Lydian. Golijov describes the piece as if the bowing of the cello were flying, never stopping, and never landing. Golijov jokingly added,
"However I have vertigo, so I would never want to fly myself."
It was a hell of a concerto. Not intended to show virtuosity.
A short question/answer portion rounded out the seminar with questions from the other composers.
Q: Do you ever use a certain methodology when you compose?
A: No, I really don't, but I always know what is going on in the music. For example in the concerto, the use of gravity and modulation of energy, I translated that into notes.
Q: "What is your opera going to be about?"
A: It's a secret.
We do know its going to be premiered in London in '10 and at the Met in '11.
Q: "Can you sum yourself up in a certain phrase like some composers do? (i.e. neo-romantic, mystic, etc)
A: No. I am not molded to any aesthetic." He adds later, "[In music] you can have or add anything you want, its just how you use it. We meandered in conversation a bit and he cited René Leibowitz's article Sibelius: The worst composer ever. Golijov says, Now, well all know who Sibelius is. Hardly anyone here has heard of Leibowitz!
Q: "Will you accept my friend request on myspace?"
A: "I don't have myspace! This, (points to self and general area) is my space!"
Thus ended the seminar.
In part 2 of my posting, I will describe the large convocation Golijov had where I was a panelist at a round-table discussion and an open-mic question/answer session for the entire OSU school of music. Also, the concerts where Yiddishbbuk, Mariel, Levante, Tenebrae, Demos Gracias from La Pasion segun San Marcos , Coral del Arrecife from Oceana, and Lullaby and Doina were performed. Lastly, the Columbus Symphony Orchestra performing Last Round and Three Songs for Soprano and Orchestra, sung by Jessica Rivera replacing the ill Dawn Upshaw.
Thanks, very enjoyable reading. You must have been very excited to have such a lengthy exchange. (Love the MySpace comment...)
--Bruce
I have been listening to the latest Golijov offering from DG. Oceana.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PrW41AYfL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
There are three pieces on the disc. I want to set the title cantata aside for the moment.
The remaining two works are, on their own, worth the entrance price. 'Tenebrae' is in two movements for string quartet, here performed by The Kronos Quartet. Deeply reflective and moving. Seemingly the piece was partly inspired by the famous Couperin Tenebrae setting. Both movements are slow, the second one has a main theme coming through that is reminiscent of Handel or Bach. If you like Part, you will probably enjoy this piece.
There then follow three orchestrated songs, also tinged with the lachrymose. He is being channeled by Dawn Upshaw as usual, she sounds to be in good voice and deals with the varied vocalisations and languages he asks for. There is Klemzer in the mix, vocalise, lots of Glass-like ostinato. They are very beautiful.
Now, the title piece. This has full orchestra flamenco, kids chorus and an adult chorus who herald in 'Oceana' in the way of RVW's 'Behold the Sea!' There is a deal of counterpoint choral writing followed in the second movement by extended unison. The tone is pretty intense and I feel a bit battered by the piece which to be honest I cannot make much sense of as a narrative; not in terms of words but from the shape of it. It comes across as a number of dispirate movements jammed together, assemble them in any order. The flamenco follows the choral movements, then they all join together for the Third Wave and as everything has been intense, it continues in that vein without there seemingly being anywhere further to go. Eventually we get an aria with just guitar, then his old favourite the tube of seeds being tipped up and down to emulate water. Some of this reminds me of the St Mark piece and that is not a compliment. This moves into chant, then a restatement of the guitar arpeggios from the preceding movement with the soprano again uttering. The final movement opens with those damned seed pipes again and is mainly an exhausted, quiet choral movement with a drifting a'capella finish.
I will continue to listen to it to see if I can get to grips with it. But, really, I know I will be getting a lot more out of the other two pieces on the disc. Again, a bit of a mixed reaction.
BTW, I seem to have lost my much loved Ainadamar disc! I don't suppose any of you guys have seen it have you?
Mike
After listening to Ainadamar and finding it moderately interesting and enjoyable despite some major problems, I tried Oceana. The title piece struck me as rather pathetic and I shelved the disc in boredom. Guess I should try the other pieces.
So far, Golijov's eclecticism strikes me as rather contrived and hokey, and since that seems to be the most salient feature of his work, based on what I've heard and what I've read about his other pieces, that doesn't bode well.
As indicated, I find him a hit or miss composer with nothing in between. He strikes me as being a figure who will polarise, people will go for his stuff big time, or consider it to be rubbish.
Mike
Quote from: knight on July 21, 2008, 06:53:57 AM
As indicated, I find him a hit or miss composer with nothing in between. He strikes me as being a figure who will polarise, people will go for his stuff big time, or consider it to be rubbish.
Mike
Well, I found
Ainadamar to fall between those extremes :) I think another poster summed it up best: Golijov seems to write sophisticated pop music more than serious classical music in the received tradition.
Quote from: andy on January 25, 2008, 10:51:15 AM
Many of his compositions are quite appealing, even catchy. Does he worry that this will hurt his classical cred?
Maybe that's the problem with contemporary classical music, or at least with how it's perceived or what's expected of it. The idea that it has to be
UN-appealing and that it's creators have to come up with something that's incomprehensible to 99.9% of people in order to be taken seriously by the self-proclaimed judges of what's relevant and what isn't. The mixed reception that Golijov's music gets from these people doesn't come as a surprise to me. They always do a lot of complaining that contemporary music should get more attention, but whenever a living composer has achieved a certain level of success they argue that the composer in question isn't all that he's cracked up to be. They are happy that contemporary music is getting some publicity, but of course the bulk of it shouldn't go to Golijov who's a composer that the average person with an interest in music can appreciate, but to composers who are plink-plonking away in obscurity and who's music is incomprehensible to anyone who doesn't have a masters degree in composition him/herself and who therefore are unlikely to find a substantial audience to begin with.
But anyway - I LOVE Golijov's music, the few things I've heard so far anyway. I liked Ainadamar so much that I immediately pushed the repeat button after my first listen of the cd. Maybe my favorite work (so far) is Three Songs which is included with the Oceana disc. I've ordered Yiddishbbuk a few days ago and La Pasion segun San Marcos is on my wish list. :)
Quote from: jhar26 on April 24, 2010, 01:26:33 AM
Maybe that's the problem with contemporary classical music, or at least with how it's perceived or what's expected of it. The idea that it has to be UN-appealing and that it's creators have to come up with something that's incomprehensible to 99.9% of people in order to be taken seriously by the self-proclaimed judges of what's relevant and what isn't.
Rubbish. The complaint I've heard voiced about Golijov's music isn't that it is accessible, but that it is shallow. That is to say, it might entertain audiences during a night's programme, but it has no staying power. Contemporary repertoire is full of pieces that are accessible to the general public but have proven lasting -- Golijov's recent music is often compared unfavourably to Berio's
Folk Songs, for example.
See reviews of recordings of Golijov's recent music at Amazon.com. Even ordinary music fans who want accessible, tonal repertoire have felt that some of these pieces are a little too cute.
QuoteThey are happy that contemporary music is getting some publicity, but of course the bulk of it shouldn't go to Golijov who's a composer that the average person with an interest in music can appreciate, but to composers who are plink-plonking away in obscurity and who's music is incomprehensible to anyone who doesn't have a masters degree in composition him/herself and who therefore are unlikely to find a substantial audience to begin with.
I love twelve-tone serialism, and yet I don't have any degree in composition. My knowledge of music theory came only after I fell in love with high modernism and wanted to know what made it so special. On the forums dedicated to Darmstadt-type music that I frequent, people with any formal training in music are a distinct minority. Knock it off this slander that modernist composers only appeal to other composers.
Quote from: Maciek on April 30, 2007, 04:14:47 PM
I only have The Dreams and Prayers of Isaac the Blind played by the Kronos Quartet. On hearing it for the first time I was completely amazed. But, unfortunately, that first impression wore off pretty quickly on repeat listening. I still find the opening of that piece very moving but the rest seems quite forgetable (in fact, the more I listen to it the less I remember ;D).
Just heard this piece on CBC Radio Two today, and I was pretty impressed by it. Perhaps like you though, it may not stand as well upon repeated hearings?
The performance I heard was Alexander Fiterstein on the Klezmer Clarinet and the Vogler Quartet.
What I found necessary to really enjoy St. Mark's Passion and Ainadamar is to edit them. The St Mark's does really pick up in the last third, but I can't listen to the whole thing without my mind wandering. I agree that Ainadamar is more effective-- at least to my ears.
When I cull away the stuff I don't care for as much, I find it very enjoyable, and moving in spots.
I guess this leaves me on the fence, but I certainly can't say I don't see value in his work.
Quote from: jhar26 on April 24, 2010, 01:26:33 AM
Maybe that's the problem with contemporary classical music, or at least with how it's perceived or what's expected of it. The idea that it has to be UN-appealing and that it's creators have to come up with something that's incomprehensible to 99.9% of people in order to be taken seriously by the self-proclaimed judges of what's relevant and what isn't. The mixed reception that Golijov's music gets from these people doesn't come as a surprise to me. They always do a lot of complaining that contemporary music should get more attention, but whenever a living composer has achieved a certain level of success they argue that the composer in question isn't all that he's cracked up to be. They are happy that contemporary music is getting some publicity, but of course the bulk of it shouldn't go to Golijov who's a composer that the average person with an interest in music can appreciate, but to composers who are plink-plonking away in obscurity and who's music is incomprehensible to anyone who doesn't have a masters degree in composition him/herself and who therefore are unlikely to find a substantial audience to begin with.
I know this post was made in 2008, but jhar26 (if you ever come back) you've made some valid points except that I think people who don't have degrees in music can appreciate a composer like Schoenberg, Dutilleux, or Ligeti. It's all a matter of what you're views of music are to begin with. If you're open to music, then only naturally can you enjoy some music that somebody who is more conservative wouldn't enjoy. The main reason an open-minded person can enjoy a wide variety of styles and genres is because they don't come to the music with some pre-conceived notions of what the music should or shouldn't do, they simply sit back and let the music speak to them. Sometimes someone might not like a piece of music right away. This is completely understandable, but I think the implication you're making that people can't comprehend contemporary music because it's "too complex" or listener unfriendly is off-the-mark. Again, it all stems from how open you are to new sounds and ideas that go beyond your expectations.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 26, 2011, 02:06:20 PM
I know this post was made in 2008, but jhar26 (if you ever come back) you've made some valid points except that I think people who don't have degrees in music can appreciate a composer like Schoenberg, Dutilleux, or Ligeti. It's all a matter of what you're views of music are to begin with. If you're open to music, then only naturally can you enjoy some music that somebody who is more conservative wouldn't enjoy. The main reason an open-minded person can enjoy a wide variety of styles and genres is because they don't come to the music with some pre-conceived notions of what the music should or shouldn't do, they simply sit back and let the music speak to them. Sometimes someone might not like a piece of music right away. This is completely understandable, but I think the implication you're making that people can't comprehend contemporary music because it's "too complex" or listener unfriendly is off-the-mark. Again, it all stems from how open you are to new sounds and ideas that go beyond your expectations.
I would say, however, that the composer needs to be honest with his or her self about the degree to which they are trying to reach an audience. To say that the audience doesn't matter and at the same time complain about not getting enough listeners strikes me as a bit hypocritical. Also, I'd say that some people who make a point of seeking complexity may be just as closed to new sounds as someone who has been raised on pop music.
A little scandal has erupted because in fulfilling a 35-orchestra commission, Golijov bought a ready-made piece from another composer and presented it as his own. And apparently he's been doing this back to the beginning of his career. See here (http://www.tommanoff.com/articles/9926/osvaldo-golijovs-siderus-an-attractive-piece-but-did-he-compose-it) and here (http://annalsofthehive.blogspot.com/2012/02/siderius-flap.html).
Quote from: CRCulver on February 20, 2012, 11:33:00 PM
A little scandal has erupted because in fulfilling a 35-orchestra commission, Golijov bought a ready-made piece from another composer and presented it as his own.
How amateurish. You're not supposed to buy; you're supposed to steal.
Quote from: Velimir on February 21, 2012, 01:29:25 AM
How amateurish. You're not supposed to buy; you're supposed to steal.
Yeah, Stravinsky would have been disappointed in Golijov. :D
Quote from: CRCulver on February 21, 2012, 04:33:00 AM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=657.msg603364#msg603364)
A little scandal has erupted because in fulfilling a 35-orchestra commission, Golijov bought a ready-made piece from another composer and presented it as his own. And apparently he's been doing this back to the beginning of his career. See
here (http://www.tommanoff.com/articles/9926/osvaldo-golijovs-siderus-an-attractive-piece-but-did-he-compose-it) and here (http://annalsofthehive.blogspot.com/2012/02/siderius-flap.html).
The Art of the Con.
Very disappointing. It can be spun in various 'ironic' ways; but I won't be buying more of the discs with his name on them any time soon.
Mike
*** BUMP ***
Listening to Golijov's Siderius
https://www.youtube.com/v/edpddtAM6xY
Golijov's name came up in another thread as a "fake" composer, an unkind remark, and an opinion I don't share.
Some of Golijov's notable works include:
Yiddishbbuk (1992), for string quartet, premiered at Tanglewood.
The Dreams and Prayers of Isaac the Blind (1994), for klezmer clarinet and string quartet (and subsequently for clarinet and string orchestra), inspired by the writings and teachings of Rabbi Yitzhak Saggi Nehor, also known as Isaac the Blind.
Oceana (1996), cantata for chorus and orchestra.
La Pasión según San Marcos (St. Mark's Passion) (2000): premiered in Stuttgart. It has been performed regularly since its premiere.
Three Songs for Soprano and Orchestra (2001). Lúa Descolorida from this set was later repurposed as the 'Peter's Tears' Aria in La Pasión según San Marcos.
Ainadamar (2003): Golijov's first opera, premiered in Tanglewood, with libretto by David Henry Hwang. A 2006 recording for Deutsche Grammophon received Grammy awards for both Best Opera Recording and Best Classical Contemporary Composition.
Ayre (2004): a song cycle for soprano and ensemble, premiered in New York by Dawn Upshaw and The Andalucian Dogs.
Azul (2006), for cello and orchestra, premiered by Yo-Yo Ma at Tanglewood.
I look forward to more new works from this very interesting and talented composer.
Quote from: sanantonio on February 15, 2017, 07:03:15 AM
"Golijov's" Siderius
FTFY
Quote from: Daniel WakinTom Manoff, a composer and NPR music critic, wrote in his blog that "at least half of the piece" was known to him as "Barbeich" by Mr. Ward-Bergeman, a work for accordion and ensemble.
[...]
The matter came to light as a result of weird serendipity. Mr. Manoff said he attended a concert by the Eugene Symphony in Oregon with the trumpet player Brian McWhorter to hear a performance of a Haydn trumpet concerto. "Sidereus" happened to be on the program.
And it also happened that Mr. McWhorter had recorded trumpet lines for "Barbeich" and had taken a recording to Mr. Manoff, who has a recording studio, for remixing. Mr. Manoff said he had spent 30 hours with "Barbeich."
"As the phrases unfolded, McWhorter and I would turn to one another with a genuine sense of shock," Mr. Manoff wrote on his blog. "Our spontaneous reactions were also surreal and even funny. After the concert we asked each other, 'Did this really happen?' "
"Sidereus" contains important elements of Mr. Ward-Bergeman's "Barbeich," Mr. Manoff said, including melodies, harmonies, counterpoint, musical structures, textures and form.
That is far more than Mr. Golijov openly described on his publisher's Web site.
He's certainly a joke in a lot of classical circles from what I've read. An unkind remark? Maybe, but there's some truth in it as Karl's linked article so rightfully points out.
"Sidereus," the subject of this fracas, is a nine-minute overture by Mr. Golijov that was commissioned by a consortium of 35 orchestras to honor a music industry official, Henry Fogel. Mr. Fogel is the former president of the League of American Orchestras, whose board put up $50,000 toward the commission. The orchestras put up another $70,000, said Ryan Fleur, president of the Memphis Symphony and coordinator of the commission. Mr. Golijov received $75,000, with the rest of the money going to production costs.
So my question is, whatever sananton' thinks of the "composer's" methods, did the 35 orchestras feel they got what they commissioned? I have only spoken to a representative of one of the 35 orchestras, and he gave no indication of any future interest in collaborating with Golijov.
I have several of his discs including the opera, which I enjoyed enormously. I was very disappointed to read the accusations of plagerism and it cast a shadow over that enjoyment. I gather that there has been more than one work on which doubts have been cast and understand that the composer's reputation has been pretty much ruined.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on February 15, 2017, 07:43:27 AM
I have several of his discs including the opera, which I enjoyed enormously. I was very disappointed to read the accusations of plagerism and it cast a shadow over that enjoyment. I gather that there has been more than one work on which doubts have been cast and understand that the composer's reputation has been pretty much ruined.
Mike
It is unfortunate that Golijov's reputation has been hurt by the accusations. I don't place a whole lot of stock in them. I continue to enjoy his music, and accept his explanation (as well as that of the other composer) for the confusion about the genesis of at least one work, the main one, that spawned the plagarism issue.
Golijov's is a unique voice. I do see how his big splash would engender some grumbling in the small pond of classical music.
Quote from: knight66 on February 15, 2017, 07:43:27 AM
I have several of his discs including the opera, which I enjoyed enormously. I was very disappointed to read the accusations of plagerism and it cast a shadow over that enjoyment. I gather that there has been more than one work on which doubts have been cast and understand that the composer's reputation has been pretty much ruined.
Mike
And all so pointlessly. A nine-minute piece, and for $75,000 he couldn't be bothered to do more than four and a half minutes of fresh work. I wonder if he wrote his own papers at school.
Quote from: sanantonio on February 15, 2017, 08:00:46 AM
It is unfortunate that Golijov's reputation has been hurt by the accusations. I don't place a whole lot of stock in them. I continue to enjoy his music, and accept his explanation (as well as that of the other composer) for the confusion about the genesis of at least one work, the main one, that spawned the plagarism issue.
Golijov's is a unique voice. I do see how his big splash would engender some grumbling in the small pond of classical music.
What's unfortunate is you merely call them accusations whenever it's been proven time and time again that Golijov is a fraud. But, whatever...not worth arguing about. I think he's a joke and you don't, so nothing's going to change that.
I don't know which is more cynical: Golijov's methods, or the apologetics which argue that "this is no different from what composers have always done." Because, obviously, the conductor I know observes a moral distinction.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 01, 2012, 08:28:40 AM
Quote from: CRCulver on February 21, 2012, 04:33:00 AM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=657.msg603364#msg603364) A little scandal has erupted because in fulfilling a 35-orchestra commission, Golijov bought a ready-made piece from another composer and presented it as his own. And apparently he's been doing this back to the beginning of his career. See
here (http://www.tommanoff.com/articles/9926/osvaldo-golijovs-siderus-an-attractive-piece-but-did-he-compose-it) and here (http://annalsofthehive.blogspot.com/2012/02/siderius-flap.html).
The Art of the Con.
Interesting to note that neither of those blog posts (http://www.tommanoff.com/articles/9926/osvaldo-golijovs-siderus-an-attractive-piece-but-did-he-compose-it (http://www.tommanoff.com/articles/9926/osvaldo-golijovs-siderus-an-attractive-piece-but-did-he-compose-it) and http://annalsofthehive.blogspot.com/2012/02/siderius-flap.html (http://annalsofthehive.blogspot.com/2012/02/siderius-flap.html)) exists anymore.
Coincidence?
Quote from: knight66 on February 15, 2017, 07:43:27 AM
cast a shadow over that enjoyment
it's a sticky, icky feeling, mmm
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 15, 2017, 09:01:13 AM
I don't know which is more cynical: Golijov's methods, or the apologetics which argue that "this is no different from what composers have always done." Because, obviously, the conductor I know observes a moral distinction.
I didn't know about this when I read your other Post. I just thought it was a brilliant observation on YOUR part, lol- sorry, I didn't mean to give you GeniusPostCredit... ahhh... but anyhow,, 'Golijov's Goathouse'???...
I mean, yea, I guess, the "paying" vs "stealing" thing,... mm,... almost like, what's the dif?,... but, yea, of course, we ALL get thaaat feeling when we hear certain things about people we're supposed to respect.
I mean, what's the music sound like? Is it so awesome that arguments don't matter?
I've only heard the 'Isaac' clarinet quintet (w/Kronos), and found nothing out of the ordinary in the Nonesuch stable of "ContemporaryClassical" (LOL),
all the , excuse me, CRAP IT WAS, CRAP IT WILL BE (sorry, Mike Myers moment, made myself laugh, not meant as anything...) :P
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on February 15, 2017, 12:06:23 PM
.......Never heard of him
That's too bad since he is a very interesting composer, in my estimation. He was commissioned to have an opera at the Met in 2017-2018 but I just read where he has pulled out of that commitment. Since his mistreatment in the press, my view, he has devoted more time to teaching and film scores. Sections of the opera have been performed here and there, and I hope to see a new work come out based on the music for that aborted project.
The best work, I think, for someone to get an idea of what he is about would be
Ainadamar.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on February 15, 2017, 12:06:23 PM
.......Never heard of him
I just checked several links on Youtube, couldn't tolerate more than ca. four minutes in to any of them. Film music shtick / schlock aesthetic, in the negative sense, and no more 'interesting than say, Karl Jenkins, who is another very popular composer whom many others feel is as much a sort of 'bad joke.'
But don't let that keep you from checking it out. I mean, I know I'll not bother to open another link with his music on it, i.e. no matter what the musical cloth, it is the same guy inside.
Others, clearly
love this stuff.
Chacun a....
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on February 15, 2017, 01:34:57 PM
Well I haven't heard of every composer have I? ;) I'll have to check him out :)
Don't bother. He's one of the greatest running jokes in classical circles. The guy can't meet a deadline to save his life. The lessons of Golijov's story? Don't except a commission that you can't honor and write your own music instead of someone else's.
*** Bump ***
I have moved Osvaldo Golijov onto my Top Ten Composers list and am spending today revisiting his music.
I know he is working and writing new music, e.g."Falling Out of Time," was premiered in 2019. "Falling Out of Time" is an evening-long song cycle for the Silk Road Ensemble, based on the book Falling Out of Time by David Grossman. I look forward to a recording of this work. He is also the Loyola Professor of Music at the College of the Holy Cross, so his time is taken up with his teaching responsibilities which may explain the lack of more new works/recordings.
My normal procedure is to create a playlist of a composer's works and listen to them randomly just to get the flavor of his sound world in my ears before listening to them individually. I have yet to hear a work of his that I do not enjoy, and some I really like a lot.
Ainadamar, Dreams and Prayers of Isaac the Blind, and Ayre are the ones that I know the best and like the most. His St. Mark Passion, Yiddishbbuk and Azul are the ones I will spending more time with since I don't know them as well, but have listened to them more than once and like them.
It a bit interesting to me that two composers I like a lot are Jewish who wrote Catholic liturgical works: Bernstein's Mass and Golijov's Passion. In each case the blending of genres is a hallmark of their styles and what attracts me to their music. I know he has been a lightning rod and a certain amount of controversy surrounds him (it seems to have died down by now), but I block out that noise and enjoy his music and think very highly of his work.