I bought the latest BBC Music Magazine. Near the front there are the reader's letters. Some have a reply. I am not sure from exactly who, but I assume it it not the tea-boy.
In answer to one person who asked if a specific performance was going to be issued on CD, the answer was no, but "if they do , you'll read it hear first."
Later another reader bemoans that some downloads have no linear notes or texts available, a von Otter disc Terezin/Theresienstadt is specified. The answer...."I often find the lower price more than compensates for the lack of info." So, no curiosity there, just let it flow over you. What was it I said about it not being the tea-boy?
Elsewhere there are several substantial articles about Karajan. Although by different people, they all take a fairly hostile stance.
Here is the end of one item...
His last efforts were to produce a series of video recordings in which one could see him, eyes closed, reverent expression, hands drooping, in telepathic control of the forces at his command. They are a document in the history of narcissism rather than of real music making. But they should not lead us to forget that among the ruins of his ambitions were some great treasures, which still survive.
I assume the final sentence is a form of fair minded balance, ruins of what ambitions?
Mike
Quote from: knight on March 11, 2008, 03:05:39 PM
I bought the latest BBC Music Magazine.
Mike
Are you going to buy the next issue?
I find the key to enjoying classical music is to avoid classical music magazines. I heard Karajan live in the last year of his life, performing Bruckner 8 with the VPO. It was the most sublime musical performance I ever heard. The review in the paper the next day said it sucked.
Quote from: knight on March 11, 2008, 03:05:39 PM
I bought the latest BBC Music Magazine. Near the front there are the reader's letters. Some have a reply. I am not sure from exactly who, but I assume it it not the tea-boy.
In answer to one person who asked if a specific performance was going to be issued on CD, the answer was no, but "if they do , you'll read it hear first."
Later another reader bemoans that some downloads have no linear notes or texts available, a von Otter disc Terezin/Theresienstadt is specified. The answer...."I often find the lower price more than compensates for the lack of info." So, no curiosity there, just let it flow over you. What was it I said about it not being the tea-boy?
Elsewhere there are several substantial articles about Karajan. Although by different people, they all take a fairly hostile stance.
Here is the end of one item...
His last efforts were to produce a series of video recordings in which one could see him, eyes closed, reverent expression, hands drooping, in telepathic control of the forces at his command. They are a document in the history of narcissism rather than of real music making. But they should not lead us to forget that among the ruins of his ambitions were some great treasures, which still survive.
I assume the final sentence is a form of fair minded balance, ruins of what ambitions?
Mike
Don, I don't buy it often. Usually just if there is something on the cover disc I wanted. This time the draw was the multiple articles on Karajan.
Mike
Quote from: head-case on March 11, 2008, 03:34:11 PM
I find the key to enjoying classical music is to avoid classical music magazines.
I can't say the same. They're just magazines to read; there's no reason to accept their opinions.
Quote from: knight on March 11, 2008, 03:05:39 PM
In answer to one person who asked if a specific performance was going to be issued on CD, the answer was no, but "if they do , you'll read it hear first."
Well, this one leapt out at me. Don't they have a copy editor?
Quote from: knight on March 11, 2008, 03:05:39 PM
were some great treasures, which still survive.
I assume the final sentence is a form of fair minded balance, ruins of what ambitions?
Mike
There's no *great treasures* from that supreme egoist. Of course its my opinion , if firmly expressed.
*what ambitions?*
Like Fritz Reiner, Karajan ruled with a *Baton Of Iron* Cracked heads if he needed to.
Mike, like yourself, I only buy BBC Music for the cover discs (as you well know ;)). I tend to ignore many of the 'in-depth' articles, and instead focus on sections like the recording news and general snippets from the world of classical music, plus anything reviewed by Calum MacDonald. If the cover CDs stopped featuring complete works, I'd no doubt drop the magazine altogether; I've acquired quite a few superb performances on these discs in the past three or four years.
Have you considered subscribing to this fortnightly industry publication instead?
Classical Music (http://www.rhinegold.co.uk/magazines/cm/index.cfm)
Thanks Mark, I will have a look at it.
As to "But they should not lead us to forget that among the ruins of his ambitions were some great treasures, which still survive."
He had lots of ambitions, but they seem to have been pretty well satisfied and never lay in ruins, empty rhetoric.
Mike
Quote from: knight on March 13, 2008, 02:00:13 PM
He had lots of ambitions, but they seem to have been pretty well satisfied and never lay in ruins, empty rhetoric.
"Lay in ruins" is hyperbole. But they do have a point, I think his ego often got in the way. I'd much rather see a film of an actual concert than the bizarre films of the artificially staged concerts with the weird camera angles that we have Unitel. And I think he would have been better served to just let the recording engineers do their thing unmolested rather than try to craft the idealized, unrealistic recordings that he often produced. That said, he was unbelievable in concert and some of the recordings are splendid.
Not that it really matters...but I still do not see how ANY of his ambitions lay in ruins. He achieved all he seemingly wanted to achieve. Some of the product we may not like, but I don't see that in any way equating to the overheated phrase used.
Mike
Quote from: knight on March 13, 2008, 02:41:22 PM
Not that it really matters...but I still do not see how ANY of his ambitions lay in ruins. He achieved all he seemingly wanted to achieve. Some of the product we may not like, but I don't see that in any way equating to the overheated phrase used.
Mike
Make no mistake, I do not find any of his ambitions in ruins, only that his ambitions sometimes distracted from the music that he was creating in concert.
Yes, I agree. I have just today got my hands on the EMI vocal box of 71cds and am listening to the final scene of Salome from 1988 with Welitch. I have a fair few hours real pleasure ahead of me.
Mike
sure his ambitions lay in ruins
herbie's wish was that he would have a entire series of videos so he could live on forever on film.
never to be forgotten.
I own no recordings by this ego maniac. I can't stand his *conducting*. when he conducts its all about Herbie, the composer's intentions are totally pushed aside.
Quote from: paulb on March 14, 2008, 04:59:57 AM
sure his ambitions lay in ruins
herbie's wish was that he would have a entire series of videos so he could live on forever on film.
never to be forgotten.
I own no recordings by this ego maniac. I can't stand his *conducting*. when he conducts its all about Herbie, the composer's intentions are totally pushed aside.
Yey, well of course then, as
you have nothing by him, his ambitions do come crashing down.
Mike
Quote from: paulb on March 14, 2008, 04:59:57 AM
I own no recordings by this ego maniac. I can't stand his *conducting*. when he conducts its all about Herbie, the composer's intentions are totally pushed aside.
Utter nonsense...if you listened blindly to any Karajan recording,
you couldn't even tell it was him. There is no way you could tell us where and how the composer's intentions were being violated. You're just bigotted, Paul. Even though you haven't actually heard any of their performances, you have a kneejerk reaction just reading the names: Bernstein, Karajan, Reiner, and I'll assume Szell, Toscanni, Mvravinsky too since you don't like the dictatorial style of conductor (although, in fact, there isn't a single conductor who isn't a dictator: music making on the orchestral level isn't a democracy). All conductors have huge egos; it comes with the job. Some just hide it better.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 14, 2008, 07:36:35 AM
Utter nonsense...if you listened blindly to any Karajan recording, you couldn't even tell it was him. There is no way you could tell us where and how the composer's intentions were being violated. You're just bigotted, Paul. Even though you haven't actually heard any of their performances, you have a kneejerk reaction just reading the names: Bernstein, Karajan, Reiner, and I'll assume Szell, Toscanni, Mvravinsky too since you don't like the dictatorial style of conductor (although, in fact, there isn't a single conductor who isn't a dictator: music making on the orchestral level isn't a democracy). All conductors have huge egos; it comes with the job. Some just hide it better.
Sarge
Mrvinsky did a wonderfful recording of the Shosty 1st vc, though SAVED by the Czech PO /the one on Praga with oistrakh.
Other Mrvinsky is dubious renderings, his Lenningrad was *rough*.
The other conductors I have no use for.
I heard Karajan's Boris Godunov, the one OOP<,and was flooded *intentionally* in Katrina, could have fetched $$$$ today's used market. Karajan makes a mess of that great opera. On Decca.
I can listen to any recording and give a grade scoring 1-100, just like high school point system,
I've got 30 yrs critquing behind me and most all <90% >of amazon reviews are full of S**T.... everyone gives a high 5.
Quote from: paulb on March 14, 2008, 08:10:41 AM
The other conductors I have no use for.
I rest my case.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 14, 2008, 07:36:35 AM
All conductors have huge egos; it comes with the job. Some just hide it better.
Sarge
thats sterotyping.
There are some conductors that work with the orch as partner, not as dictator.
Quote from: paulb on March 14, 2008, 08:13:44 AM
There are some conductors that work with the orch as partner, not as dictator.
I've been in various choruses from high school through university, sometimes singing with orchestra.
Whether it is for chorus or orchestra (or both), a conductor has GOT to be a hard-a$$ to pull everyone together. That is his/her job. It can be a tough slog, but in the end, its worth it. If a conductor can't do that, the sound will be flabby at best.
The best ones I've worked with were tough-- and they were the best & have my utmost respect. Conductors aren't there to be liked, but to make an ensemble sound its best. And oftentimes that means having strict discipline. No pain, no gain.
I have sung in performances with
Abbado
Solti
Gibson
Rattle
Bertini
Muti
Maazel
Andrew Davis
Penderski
Tilson Thomas
Pritchard
Dutoit
Atherton
Leinsdorf
Mehta
Baremboim
Conlon
Mackerras
Temirkanov
Boulez
Amongst others....
Some were charming, but really, that was as long as they were getting what they wanted. Some we saw the rough edge of either at the orchestra or soloists. Bertini was a prickly man, but we would eat out of his hand. We knew he had such talent and what he wanted was our best. None of them was interested in concensus. Which reminds me, how could I forget Elliot-Gardiner, probably the most truculant of them all. But to ensure their vision was put across, they had to be firm.
Mike
What a terrific fund of experience, Mike!
Quote from: just josh on March 14, 2008, 08:20:15 AM
I've been in various choruses from high school through university, sometimes singing with orchestra.
Whether it is for chorus or orchestra (or both), a conductor has GOT to be a hard-a$$ to pull everyone together. That is his/her job. It can be a tough slog, but in the end, its worth it. If a conductor can't do that, the sound will be flabby at best.
The best ones I've worked with were tough-- and they were the best & have my utmost respect. Conductors aren't there to be liked, but to make an ensemble sound its best. And oftentimes that means having strict discipline. No pain, no gain.
thanks for this fair assessemnt of reality.
which may explain why i like so few recordings/why so few *make the grade*.
I have a big platic garbage bag of cds all destined to my brother in law. I lost about 50+ "duds" in Katrina, somehow I *forgot * to place them above the flood water.
saved me time for listing them on amazon.
I've just come across this thread, so forgive me if the following's already been done to death:
Quote from: knight on March 13, 2008, 02:00:13 PM
As to "But they should not lead us to forget that among the ruins of his ambitions were some great treasures, which still survive."
He had lots of ambitions, but they seem to have been pretty well satisfied and never lay in ruins, empty rhetoric.
Mike
Mike, I think you're almost certainly misreading that sentence. Karajan obviously got exactly what he wanted (at least as much of the time as to make no odds); the ruins Michael Tanner (the author) is surely referring to - admittedly hyperbolically - is the music Karajan turned his attentions to. That makes more sense of the overall sentence and the reference to "treasures...among the ruins", doesn't it?
I have some great Bruckner conducted by Karajan, and some unimpressive Hindemith. I don't understand why he is such a polarizing figure beyond the extramusical controversies.