This will be my first seeing this opera, and I'm wondering if I should just go with the Stein/Bayreuth, as I really love the Parsifal from that combination, Then again, I happen to be a fan of James Morris. I'm looking for a basic, traditional production. Is there a dvd I should get first?
Quote from: Haffner on March 23, 2008, 03:26:17 PM
This will be my first seeing this opera, and I'm wondering if I should just go with the Stein/Bayreuth, as I really love the Parsifal from that combination, Then again, I happen to be a fan of James Morris. I'm looking for a basic, traditional production. Is there a dvd I should get first?
The Met DVD will give you a basic, traditional production, albeit one under the somewhat heavy hand of Mr. Levine. I have not seen the Stein, but be aware if you get it that a bit of stage business at the end - the reconciliation between Sachs and Beckmesser - is not in Wagner's scenario, This directorial touch by Wolfgang Wagner is plainly intended to soften the most unpleasant aspect of the opera, the cruel way in which Beckmesser is humiliated by the entire town in the final scene.
Quote from: Sforzando on March 23, 2008, 07:31:51 PM
The Met DVD will give you a basic, traditional production, albeit one under the somewhat heavy hand of Mr. Levine. I have not seen the Stein, but be aware if you get it that a bit of stage business at the end - the reconciliation between Sachs and Beckmesser - is not in Wagner's scenario, This directorial touch by Wolfgang Wagner is plainly intended to soften the most unpleasant aspect of the opera, the cruel way in which Beckmesser is humiliated by the entire town in the final scene.
I have the DVD recording at the MET with Mr. Levine and I love it- that production is so "rich" and "creamy" it is marvelous!!
Now on to more pressing issues, I am surprised to read about this directorial touch by Wolfgang Wagner! How dare he defy R. Wagner's intent to humiliate Beckmesser- that's a very big part of what this opera is all about. It is Wagner's attempt to strike back at all the critics, especially Hanslick who have taken the liberty to publicly criticize and disapprove of his artwork. Thank God that Levine had enough sense to understand this and stick to Wagner's libretto verbatim.
marvin
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 27, 2008, 02:39:08 AM
I have the DVD recording at the MET with Mr. Levine and I love it- that production is so "rich" and "creamy" it is marvelous!!
Now on to more pressing issues, I am surprised to read about this directorial touch by Wolfgang Wagner! How dare he defy R. Wagner's intent to humiliate Beckmesser- that's a very big part of what this opera is all about. It is Wagner's attempt to strike back at all the critics, especially Hanslick who have taken the liberty to publicly criticize and disapprove of his artwork. Thank God that Levine had enough sense to understand this and stick to Wagner's libretto verbatim.
marvin
This is a difficult thing to say but if you substitute "a jew" for Beckmesser, you begin to get the drift of Wagner's intent. Not so pretty. Personally, I choose to ignore this. This is Wagner's problem, not mine.
Dear Anne, if you would read marvinbrown's post carefully, you would get the correct meaning Wagner put to Beckmesser. It has nothing to do with 'jew', it's all about critics. Let's not start that Wagner harassment all over again!
Thank you!
Anyone know if this is a good Meistersinger DVD?
Andy, I can't read the names of the cast, orchestra, conductor, etc. The cover photo looks familiar, but I don't have it in my collection. :-\
Quote from: uffeviking on March 27, 2008, 07:30:35 PM
Dear Anne, if you would read marvinbrown's post carefully, you would get the correct meaning Wagner put to Beckmesser. It has nothing to do with 'jew', it's all about critics. Let's not start that Wagner harassment all over again!
Thank you!
Dear uffeviking,
Whether Beckmesser represents a Jew is by no means an open-and-shut case. Literally of course he does not, but neither does he literally represent Edward Hanslick or any other critic. (Yes, Wagner originally called Beckmesser "Hans Lich," but what is more important is that he eventually changed that name, thus steering away from a direct identification.)
What is clear about the denouement of Die Meistersinger is that the story as Wagner conceived it requires Beckmesser - the town clerk of Nürnberg, the rule-besotted and finicky pedant, the would-be wooer who stands not a chance of winning the girl - to be ridiculed and humiliated by the entire town before the handsome young knight Walther steps in to save the day, win the girl, and (benefiting from the guidance of the wise cobbler-poet Hans Sachs) sing the song the unites the entire town in a Utopian vision of a community brought together by the power of music. The point regarding Beckmesser, however,
is that in order to achieve this Utopia, the least desirable member of the community must be expunged.
One does not have to interpret Beckmesser as a Jew to be disturbed by the way this character is handled in the last scene of the opera. Wagner must have thought the final treatment of Beckmesser to be hilarious, but it just ain't funny on any level, and it sounds a false note in what is otherwise a supremely humane work. Wolfgang Wagner, one senses, must have also been disturbed by this ending and so invented this bit of stage business to subvert and soften Beckmesser's final humiliation. But by doing so, he changed the story as Wagner conceived it in a fundamental way.
Quote from: uffeviking on March 28, 2008, 05:41:56 AM
Andy, I can't read
Fret not ....... we're here for you ........
Wheeeew! What a relief do have friends like Dm! :-*
Now would you please let me have your magnifying glass so I can make out the tiny print on Haffner's DVD cover? ???
Quote from: uffeviking on March 28, 2008, 07:09:47 AM
Wheeeew! What a relief do have friends like Dm! :-*
Now would you please let me have your magnifying glass so I can make out the tiny print on Haffner's DVD cover? ???
Ever heard of Amazon.com?
Quote from: Sforzando on March 28, 2008, 07:16:10 AM
Ever heard of Amazon.com?
That one isn't on Amazon. That is why I asked about it here. It is a recording made in Berlin, conducted by Fruhbeck de Burgos.
Quote from: Sforzando on March 28, 2008, 05:50:33 AM
Dear uffeviking,
Whether Beckmesser represents a Jew is by no means an open-and-shut case. Literally of course he does not, but neither does he literally represent Edward Hanslick or any other critic. (Yes, Wagner originally called Beckmesser "Hans Lich," but what is more important is that he eventually changed that name, thus steering away from a direct identification.)
What is clear about the denouement of Die Meistersinger is that the story as Wagner conceived it requires Beckmesser - the town clerk of Nürnberg, the rule-besotted and finicky pedant, the would-be wooer who stands not a chance of winning the girl - to be ridiculed and humiliated by the entire town before the handsome young knight Walther steps in to save the day, win the girl, and (benefiting from the guidance of the wise cobbler-poet Hans Sachs) sing the song the unites the entire town in a Utopian vision of a community brought together by the power of music. The point regarding Beckmesser, however, is that in order to achieve this Utopia, the least desirable member of the community must be expunged.
One does not have to interpret Beckmesser as a Jew to be disturbed by the way this character is handled in the last scene of the opera. Wagner must have thought the final treatment of Beckmesser to be hilarious, but it just ain't funny on any level, and it sounds a false note in what is otherwise a supremely humane work. Wolfgang Wagner, one senses, must have also been disturbed by this ending and so invented this bit of stage business to subvert and soften Beckmesser's final humiliation. But by doing so, he changed the story as Wagner conceived it in a fundamental way.
Good piece.
I want to add that I don't think Wolfgang Wagner was only just 'disturbed' by this ending - he knows the criticism that has been levelled at Wagner's 'scapegoating' of Beckmesser (think especially of Adorno's very influential Wagner study). Whether WW should have 'resolved' his grandfather's 'false note' is a moot point. Political correctness in Bayreuth?...
Quote from: Sforzando on March 28, 2008, 05:50:33 AM
Dear uffeviking,
Whether Beckmesser represents a Jew is by no means an open-and-shut case. Literally of course he does not, but neither does he literally represent Edward Hanslick or any other critic. (Yes, Wagner originally called Beckmesser "Hans Lich," but what is more important is that he eventually changed that name, thus steering away from a direct identification.)
What is clear about the denouement of Die Meistersinger is that the story as Wagner conceived it requires Beckmesser - the town clerk of Nürnberg, the rule-besotted and finicky pedant, the would-be wooer who stands not a chance of winning the girl - to be ridiculed and humiliated by the entire town before the handsome young knight Walther steps in to save the day, win the girl, and (benefiting from the guidance of the wise cobbler-poet Hans Sachs) sing the song the unites the entire town in a Utopian vision of a community brought together by the power of music. The point regarding Beckmesser, however, is that in order to achieve this Utopia, the least desirable member of the community must be expunged.
One does not have to interpret Beckmesser as a Jew to be disturbed by the way this character is handled in the last scene of the opera. Wagner must have thought the final treatment of Beckmesser to be hilarious, but it just ain't funny on any level, and it sounds a false note in what is otherwise a supremely humane work. Wolfgang Wagner, one senses, must have also been disturbed by this ending and so invented this bit of stage business to subvert and soften Beckmesser's final humiliation. But by doing so, he changed the story as Wagner conceived it in a fundamental way.
I do not know how to respond to this, only to say that if you are worried about antisemitic, racist etc. contents of Die Meistersinger you had better start editing the following works of art for the following reasons:
J.S. Bach- St. Matthew Passion (antisemitic)
R. Strauss- Salome (antisemitic)
Rigoletto- (sexist- what a terrible opera this is, Gilda gets seduced, cast aside and eventually murdered)
Cosi Fan Tutte- (sexist)
Madam Butterfly- If I were American I'd be insulted by this opera, and if I were Asian worst yet.
My point is that no one can really tell what Wagner's true intentions were for the mockery of Beckmesser. But if I were going to take this opera on face value I'd say that it was a direct response to the critics who attacked Wagner (Hanslick was not Jewish after all but raised Christian) and knowing Wagner's bad temper I wouldn't put it past him to lash out at those who criticized him- remember this guy was an egomaniac. I'd like to think that his artwork is clean- and I feel that it is cleaner than those pieces listed above, Rigoletto notwithstanding its beautiful music always leaves a "bitter taste in my mouth."
marvin
Quote from: Haffner on March 28, 2008, 08:23:57 AM
That one isn't on Amazon. That is why I asked about it here. It is a recording made in Berlin, conducted by Fruhbeck de Burgos.
It is on amazon:
link (http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Die-Meistersinger-Von-Nurnberg/dp/B0001VLUT8/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1206725736&sr=1-4)
I checked it out of the library some time ago. Don't remember it well, beyond that I thought it was pretty good, but I preferred the Met version.
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 28, 2008, 08:43:00 AM
I do not know how to respond to this, only to say that if you are worried about antisemitic, racist etc. contents of Die Meistersinger you had better start editing the following works of art for the following reasons:
J.S. Bach- St. Matthew Passion (antisemitic)
R. Strauss- Salome (antisemitic)
Rigoletto- (sexist- what a terrible opera this is, Gilda gets seduced, cast aside and eventually murdered)
Cosi Fan Tutte- (sexist)
Madam Butterfly- If I were American I'd be insulted by this opera, and if I were Asian worst yet.
My point is that no one can really tell what Wagner's true intentions were for the mockery of Beckmesser.
Doesn't matter. Wagner's intentions died with him when he keeled over of a heart attack in Venice in 1883. What matters is the work Wagner created. And of course there are other operas, plays, stories, what have you, that reveal sexist or racist overtones and undertones. I can add dozens more with little effort. That's not quite the point. Each piece has to be considered on its own terms (from what I've read, Asians aren't particularly disturbed by Mme. Butterfly because they recognize she's just one of Puccini's typical Italian lachrymose heroines in a kimono).
The point is that, unlike most of your other examples, Wagner was writing a
comedy in which the denouement of the story is plainly to show a community united by the power of music. Yet despite himself, he subverts his own ends by treating his villain in a way that is sufficiently harsh to interfere with the comic tone, and which undermines the spirit of reconciliation the story otherwise leads to at the end.
There are a number of standard comic topoi in Die Meistersinger - the young lovers separated by circumstances who are eventually united in marriage, the old fool who thinks himself able to win the young girl, the fool who makes an ass of himself and must eventually be shown the error of his ways (both of the latter combined in the Beckmesser story), and part of the dramatist's task is how well to achieve the spirit of comedy if it involves discomfiting the buffon or villain of the story. For instance, think how much more gently Shakespeare* treats Malvolio, another self-deluded fool, at the close of Twelfth Night:
QuoteOLIVIA (to MALVOLIO) Alas, poor fool, how have they baffled thee!
FESTE Why, 'some are born great, some achieve greatness,
and some have greatness thrown upon them.' I was
one, sir, in this interlude; one Sir Topas, sir; but
that's all one. 'By the Lord, fool, I am not mad.'
But do you remember? 'Madam, why laugh you at such
a barren rascal? an you smile not, he's gagged:'
and thus the whirligig of time brings in his revenges.
MALVOLIO I'll be revenged on the whole pack of you. (Exit)
OLIVIA He hath been most notoriously abused.
DUKE ORSINO Pursue him and entreat him to a peace.
Wolfgang Wagner seems to have adapted something like this scenario in his staging of Meistersinger, with Sachs taking on the parts of Olivia and Orsino. But it's not Wagner's scenario. In Wagner, once Beckmesser is satisfactorily drummed out of town, the otherwise humane Sachs shows no interest in extending any benignity towards him.
--
* And no, I'm not forgetting The Merchant of Venice, a more complicated case to get into.
Quote from: Sforzando on March 28, 2008, 10:42:17 AM
The point is that, unlike most of your other examples, Wagner was writing a comedy in which the denouement of the story is plainly to show a community united by the power of music. Yet despite himself, he subverts his own ends by treating his villain in a way that is sufficiently harsh to interfere with the comic tone, and which undermines the spirit of reconciliation the story otherwise leads to at the end.
I go back to my original argument- I want to and I have every right to see Wagner's operas the way he conceived them. We all do! We should be the judges of whether they are racist or not or whether the ending is appropriate or not! To have a director like Wolfgang Wagner, who from what I have read has fallen out with the Wagner clan, change the ending in the way that he did is to impose his point of view (and it is nothing more than a point of view) on me and us- disgraceful! I'm sorry but I can not help but feel this way. I have always been against censorship- and what WW did is censorship! It's even worst, he passed his own judgement on that opera and then sought to correct it in the way he saw fit. Some people have a lot of nerve wouldn't you agree??
marvin
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 28, 2008, 02:52:51 PM
I go back to my original argument- I want to and I have every right to see Wagner's operas the way he conceived them. We all do! We should be the judges of whether they are racist or not or whether the ending is appropriate or not! To have a director like Wolfgang Wagner, who from what I have read has fallen out with the Wagner clan, change the ending in the way that he did is to impose his point of view (and it is nothing more than a point of view) on me and us- disgraceful! I'm sorry but I can not help but feel this way. I have always been against censorship- and what WW did is censorship! It's even worst, he passed his own judgement on that opera and then sought to correct it in the way he saw fit. Some people have a lot of nerve wouldn't you agree??
marvin
At this point, I'm pretty diehard myself. Still have no interest in the Barenboim or Boulez Ring dvds, for example. Or the abomination that Wagner's great granddaughter was part of recently in Bayreuth I believe.
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 28, 2008, 02:52:51 PM
I go back to my original argument- I want to and I have every right to see Wagner's operas the way he conceived them. We all do! We should be the judges of whether they are racist or not or whether the ending is appropriate or not! To have a director like Wolfgang Wagner, who from what I have read has fallen out with the Wagner clan, change the ending in the way that he did is to impose his point of view (and it is nothing more than a point of view) on me and us- disgraceful! I'm sorry but I can not help but feel this way. I have always been against censorship- and what WW did is censorship! It's even worst, he passed his own judgement on that opera and then sought to correct it in the way he saw fit. Some people have a lot of nerve wouldn't you agree??
marvin
But I did not defend Wolfgang Wagner. I simply pointed out why (apparently) he has and (definitely) I have a problem with the ending. I did not, nor would I, ever suggest that the ending should be changed on that account, and if you read through all my posts on the subject again, you'll see no grounds for such an inference. I want my Wagner as he wrought, warts and all.
Quote from: Haffner on March 28, 2008, 02:07:19 AM
Anyone know if this is a good Meistersinger DVD?
Yes, it is a very good performance, but not completely traditional -- I believe it was updated to the 19th century, though it was managed subtly enough that I barely noticed. The Met production is more completely traditional, so it's probably a safer choice. Performance-wise, I liked them both about equally.
So Haffner have you decided which Die Meistersinger on DVD you are going to buy? It's never easy to choose when there are so many recordings on the market :-\. I went through hell trying to pick one a few years ago and eventually settled on the Levine MET recording.
marvin
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 29, 2008, 04:52:15 PM
So Haffner have you decided which Die Meistersinger on DVD you are going to buy? It's never easy to choose when there are so many recordings on the market :-\. I went through hell trying to pick one a few years ago and eventually settled on the Levine MET recording.
marvin
I eventually want the Levine, but I think I will start with the Bayreuth production, keeping in mind its treatment of Beckmesser as being different to how Wagner wanted it. Unless you are most strongly reccomending the Levine, Marvin. In that case, I'd probably relent.
Both of them are good choices - if you want to stay with the crowd! Andy, I thought you are different and not afraid to explore the sideroads, like the Meistersinger from the Zürich Opera with Franz Welser-Möst conducting a superb cast: José Van Dam, Peter Seiffert, Matti Salminen, and Michael Volle. No, don't fear, no concept production; everybody is wearing historical clothes and the sets are traditional too. ;)
José Van Dam:
Quote from: Haffner on March 30, 2008, 04:59:07 AM
I eventually want the Levine, but I think I will start with the Bayreuth production, keeping in mind its treatment of Beckmesser as being different to how Wagner wanted it. Unless you are most strongly reccomending the Levine, Marvin. In that case, I'd probably relent.
Haffner, just for the record, I am not strongly recommending the Levine- as much as I love it I feel I have no right to strongly recommend it as I have not seen many productions of Die Meistersinger. That said if you do settle on the Bayreuth production please write a review :).
marvin
Quote from: uffeviking on March 30, 2008, 07:04:33 AM
Both of them are good choices - if you want to stay with the crowd! Andy, I thought you are different and not afraid to explore the sideroads, like the Meistersinger from the Zürich Opera with Franz Welser-Möst conducting a superb cast: José Van Dam, Peter Seiffert, Matti Salminen, and Michael Volle. No, don't fear, no concept production; everybody is wearing historical clothes and the sets are traditional too. ;)
WHOA! Van Damme and Salminen? I've GOT to find this one.
Quote from: Haffner on March 30, 2008, 04:59:07 AM
I eventually want the Levine, but I think I will start with the Bayreuth production, keeping in mind its treatment of Beckmesser as being different to how Wagner wanted it.
prove it .......
Quote from: Dm on March 30, 2008, 10:08:38 AM
prove it .......
I can't, I was told earlier in this forum that was the case. I've never seen "Meistersinger", only listened to the old Solti recording and one other.
He could read the composer's stage instructions, or read up on it in Robert Newman's book, or better yet: You could read those two sources! ;)
My post is in reply to dm's post. No confusion please on who said what! ::)
Quote from: uffeviking on March 30, 2008, 10:14:49 AM
He could read the composer's stage instructions, or read up on it in Robert Newman's book, or better yet: You could read those two sources! ;)
As soon as I locate one of my several copies of Robert Newman's book, I shall be sure to read up on this .........
Quote from: uffeviking on March 30, 2008, 10:14:49 AM
He could read the composer's stage instructions, or read up on it in Robert Newman's book, or better yet: You could read those two sources! ;)
Now I'm wondering if I should break out the Newman book before I watch the opera, rather than during (my standard practice).
Quote from: Dm on March 30, 2008, 10:20:22 AM
As soon as I locate one of my several copies of Robert Newman's book, I shall be sure to read up on this .........
Dmitri, if you don't have Newman's book (not saying you don't), you would probably like it. Actually them, since all of his books on Wagner have soemthing going for them.
Quote from: Haffner on March 30, 2008, 12:51:54 PM
Dmitri, if you don't have Newman's book (not saying you don't), you would probably like it. Actually them, since all of his books on Wagner have soemthing going for them.
Alright let's put this issue to bed once and for all. I hold before me the libretto to Die Meistersinger and here are the stage instructions immediately after Beckmesser messes the song up and up to his exit:
(Here all burst into a peal of loud laughter. Beckmesser furiously and hastens to Sachs)
Beckmesser sings:
Damned cobbler! Its you I thank for that
The song is not by me at all:
By Sachs, who is so highly revered here
by your Sach's it was given to me
The disgracefull fellow has bullied me
palmed off his dreadful song on me.
(He rushes away furiously and disappears into the crowd)
Now to me Wagner never intended for Sach's to make up with Backmesser so Wolfgang Wagner has gone too far with his alterations. Plus I do not consider this as being "laughed off the stage".
marvin
Quote from: Haffner on March 30, 2008, 12:51:54 PM
Dmitri, if you don't have Newman's book (not saying you don't), you would probably like it. Actually them, since all of his books on Wagner have soemthing going for them.
Would you believe me if I told you that all of my numerous copies are currently loaned out to friends? .........
Quote from: Dm on March 30, 2008, 10:08:38 AM
prove it .......
I took three posts in this thread to do just that.
BTW, it's Ernest Newman, not Robert.
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 30, 2008, 01:37:57 PM
Alright let's put this issue to bed once and for all. I hold before me the libretto to Die Meistersinger and here are the stage instructions immediately after Beckmesser messes the song up and up to his exit:
Thank you,
Marvin for answering all those questions and for taking the trouble of looking it up in the libretto, the 'Horse's Mouth' - and we didn't even need
Robert - Ernest! :-[
:-*
Quote from: Sforzando on March 30, 2008, 01:54:15 PM
I took three posts in this thread to do just that.
BTW, it's Ernest Newman, not Robert.
Thank you, Sforzando. Glad you were here when we needed you. Much appreciated.
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 30, 2008, 01:37:57 PM
Plus I do not consider this as being "laughed off the stage".
Not that I really want to pursue this, but what else could it possibly mean? The man has been shown up as an incompetent, self-deluding fool in front of all his peers and the entire city. Do you think he's going to hang around waiting for his rival to finish singing the Prize Song, and then come back to make small talk and share a stein of beer with his fellow Meisters?
Quote from: Sforzando on March 30, 2008, 06:08:19 PM
Not that I really want to pursue this, but what else could it possibly mean? The man has been shown up as an incompetent, self-deluding fool in front of all his peers and the entire city. Do you think he's going to hang around waiting for his rival to finish singing the Prize Song, and then come back to make small talk and share a stein of beer with his fellow Meisters?
;D
Well put. I am not the only one to find Wagner's 'humour' a bit cruel (also think of the Wanderer toying with Mime, in Siegfried). I love Wagner. He was no saint, though, 'only' one of the greatest composers.
Quote from: Sforzando on March 30, 2008, 06:08:19 PM
Not that I really want to pursue this, but what else could it possibly mean? The man has been shown up as an incompetent, self-deluding fool in front of all his peers and the entire city. Do you think he's going to hang around waiting for his rival to finish singing the Prize Song, and then come back to make small talk and share a stein of beer with his fellow Meisters?
OK but is it any crueler than Rigoletto's maltreatment by the crowd who proceed to kidnap his daughter, "ship" her off to the Duke knowing full well she was going to get taken advantage of, proceed to mock him endlessly and wickedly when he comes searching for her. I know you mentioned this before that every opera needs to be taken on its own merits and comparisons can not be made but I can not help but find Rigoletto's maltreatment by the crowd far more disturbing than this whole Beckmesser maltreatment- and the fact that it is a comedy makes no difference to me . I have never been bothered by Die Meistersinger one bit and I feel that the criticism towards the "allegedly" racist and antisemitic aspects of that opera are unfounded- just another attempt to vilify and demonize Wagner's artwork without substantial evidence. Yes I am aware of Wagner's notorious "Judaism in Music" article which has cast a large shadow over his reputation- but I submit to you NOT Die Meistersinger!
I stick by my original argument that Beckmesser is a caricature of Hanslick and other critics who have proceeded to attack Wagner's artwork. I stand by Wagner's right to strike back at those critics who drew first blood! As a Wagnerian I am glad that Wagner got the last laugh here ;D!
marvin
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 31, 2008, 01:29:58 AM
OK but is it any crueler than Rigoletto's maltreatment by the crowd who proceed to kidnap his daughter, "ship" her off to the Duke knowing full well she was going to get taken advantage of, proceed to mock him endlessly and wickedly when he comes searching for her. I know you mentioned this before that every opera needs to be taken on its own merits and comparisons can not be made but I can not help but find Rigoletto's maltreatment by the crowd far more disturbing than this whole Beckmesser maltreatment- and the fact that it is a comedy makes no difference to me . I have never been bothered by Die Meistersinger one bit and I feel that the criticism towards the "allegedly" racist and antisemitic aspects of that opera are unfounded- just another attempt to vilify and demonize Wagner's artwork without substantial evidence. Yes I am aware of Wagner's notorious "Judaism in Music" article which has cast a large shadow over his reputation- but I submit to you NOT Die Meistersinger!
I stick by my original argument that Beckmesser is a caricature of Hanslick and other critics who have proceeded to attack Wagner's artwork. I stand by Wagner's right to strike back at those critics who drew first blood! As a Wagnerian I am glad that Wagner got the last laugh here ;D!
marvin
The point, though, Marvin, is that no one has yet seen fit to alter the plot of Rigoletto. (Not that it could be done. On the other hand, certain racist-sounding lines in The Magic Flute and The Mikado are routinely altered in modern performance, but these are very small and incidental features.) That you are not disturbed by the ending of Die Meistersinger only tells me you're not sensing overtones that are quite apparent to Jezetha, myself, and Wolfgang Wagner (among others who have commented on this opera). And notice I did not say Beckmesser was in any way Jewish; he doesn't have to be for my purposes, and some of the extreme arguments in that direction are specious, being based on assumptions the audience could capture some very subtle and questionable nuances of language.
The point about comedy
is important because comedy is trying to set a certain tone. It has been said that where tragedy typically ends in isolation and death, comedy typically ends in integration and marriage. But as Jezetha also senses, there is a kind of cruelty in Wagner's humor that undermines the comic integration that otherwise would prevail in Meistersinger. Whether this stems ultimately from Wagner's blind hatred towards his critics, or towards Jews, or towards the guy who delivered the mail, is unimportant. And since Meistersinger is quite possibly the Wagner opera I love most, my problem with it - and I have felt exactly the same way in each of the half dozen or so times I have experienced the opera complete in live performance - is more a matter of regret than any attempt to vilify or demonize.
Quote from: Sforzando on March 31, 2008, 03:49:29 AM
The point, though, Marvin, is that no one has yet seen fit to alter the plot of Rigoletto. (Not that it could be done. On the other hand, certain racist-sounding lines in The Magic Flute and The Mikado are routinely altered in modern performance, but these are very small and incidental features.) That you are not disturbed by the ending of Die Meistersinger only tells me you're not sensing overtones that are quite apparent to Jezetha, myself, and Wolfgang Wagner (among others who have commented on this opera). And notice I did not say Beckmesser was in any way Jewish; he doesn't have to be for my purposes, and some of the extreme arguments in that direction are specious, being based on assumptions the audience could capture some very subtle and questionable nuances of language.
The point about comedy is important because comedy is trying to set a certain tone. It has been said that where tragedy typically ends in isolation and death, comedy typically ends in integration and marriage. But as Jezetha also senses, there is a kind of cruelty in Wagner's humor that undermines the comic integration that otherwise would prevail in Meistersinger. Whether this stems ultimately from Wagner's blind hatred towards his critics, or towards Jews, or towards the guy who delivered the mail, is unimportant. And since Meistersinger is quite possibly the Wagner opera I love most, my problem with it - and I have felt exactly the same way in each of the half dozen or so times I have experienced the opera complete in live performance - is more a matter of regret than any attempt to vilify or demonize.
Very well I can respect your point of view :).
marvin