Having been a bit dismissive of Heinrich von Herzogenberg and Felix Draeseke(although I might just revise my opinion of Draeseke), I thought that I should begin a thread on a German romantic composer for whom I do have a lot of admiration.
Wetz was a difficult man-a little like Pfitzner although not nearly as bad-but a very good composer! His three symphonies, the violin concerto and his Requiem are all quite splendid works in the tradition of Anton Bruckner or Franz Schmidt. Yes they are old-fashioned works to have been written in the first decades of the 20th century but I do find them all highly enjoyable representatives of the late romantic repertoire.
I know that others have commented on Wetz elsewhere but he does perhaps deserve his own separate thread to bring more attention to a name which may well be unfamiliar to many but whose music would equally give great pleasure.
I have a CD of Symphony 3 which I enjoyed. It reminds me of Boehme and Bohnke's music.
Quote from: vandermolen on March 30, 2008, 01:52:48 PM
I have a CD of Symphony 3 which I enjoyed. It reminds me of Boehme and Bohnke's music.
Sorry, Jeffrey, do you not mean Ernst 'Boehe'(1880-1938)? He of the huge 'Aus Odysseus's Fahrten' Symphonic Poem which CPO had to spread over two discs.
I don't know any Bohnke but will buy the Symphony/Piano concerto to find out!
You should try the first two Wetz symphonies if you liked the 3rd. Oh and can I also recommend-in the same sort of vein-Paul Buttner's Symphony No.4(Sterling CDS-1048-2).
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 30, 2008, 02:04:27 PM
Sorry, Jeffrey, do you not mean Ernst 'Boehe'(1880-1938)? He of the huge 'Aus Odysseus's Fahrten' Symphonic Poem which CPO had to spread over two discs.
I don't know any Bohnke but will buy the Symphony/Piano concerto to find out!
You should try the first two Wetz symphonies if you liked the 3rd. Oh and can I also recommend-in the same sort of vein-Paul Buttner's Symphony No.4(Sterling CDS-1048-2).
Yes, sorry Colin, you are quite right about Boehe. You should enjoy the Bohnke (great name!) I was disappointed to read (I am playing Symphony 3 at the moment) that Wetz was an enthusiast of National Socialist ideology. I know that it should not do so but this information always gets in the way of my appreciation of such composers.
Quote from: vandermolen on March 30, 2008, 02:11:49 PM
Yes, sorry Colin, you are quite right about Boehe. You should enjoy the Bohnke (great name!) I was disappointed to read (I am playing Symphony 3 at the moment) that Wetz was an enthusiast of National Socialist ideology. I know that it should not do so but this information always gets in the way of my appreciation of such composers.
I have just ordered the Bohnke!
Yes, it is true that Wetz joined the Nazi party in May 1933-partly for the opportunistic reason of hoping to further his own career. He was, however, dead by January 1935 so we cannot know whether his enthusiasm might have waned as time went by.
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 30, 2008, 02:21:18 PM
I have just ordered the Bohnke!
Yes, it is true that Wetz joined the Nazi party in May 1933-partly for the opportunistic reason of hoping to further his own career. He was, however, dead by January 1935 so we cannot know whether his enthusiasm might have waned as time went by.
Did you order the Sid or Doris Bohnke? ;D Seriously,you should enjoy it. Let me now what you think. Am enjoying the Wetz, very Brucknerian.
Quote from: vandermolen on March 30, 2008, 02:32:35 PM
Did you order the Sid or Doris Bohnke? ;D Seriously,you should enjoy it. Let me now what you think. Am enjoying the Wetz, very Brucknerian.
The Emil Bohnke :) And I shall!
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 30, 2008, 02:38:35 PM
The Emil Bohnke :) And I shall!
What an interesting composer Bohnke is! It is tragic that he died so young(39). It would have been intriguing to see how he would have developed had he lived.
The Piano Concerto at the start seemed to recall early Krenek but then veered off into a rich Romantic Brahmsian lyricism with(I thought) some Russian influences(Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov). The Symphony is turbulent and grim(just how I like my music!). Its posthumous premiere by so great a conductor as Erich Kleiber shows how highly he at least regarded it.
I have also got hold of a copy of Bohnke's Violin Concerto and will see what I make of that work.
I have been listening to Wetz this week - the first two symphonies. Both are excellent in their way, though I prefer the First at the moment - well-structured, stuck in a sort of tragic circle, and compelling in a rather unostentatious way. I do find Wetz a bit 'neutral', his personality is not very distinct (yet). What is distinct is the rather dark atmosphere his music inhabits, although Wetz lightens up a bit in the Second where there is even a harp...
I don't want to sound flippant. I am really looking forward to listening to his Third Symphony. His First is in four movements, his Second in three. The motto theme from the First seems to make a varied reappearance in the Second, so I wonder whether its power extends to number Three too...
Regarding his Nazi ending, I read the German Wiki, and there they said Wetz was a passionate nationalist long before the Nazi seizure of power... So we must come to terms with the fact that we are listening to the music of a man who, politically at least, I couldn't have counted among my friends. The same goes, btw, for Siegmund von Hausegger, a composer whose Natur-Symphonie interests me, but who wasn't very kosher either...
Just to add: it is has been their politics that have stood behind their neglect. Now that the war generation is dying, they are coming back.
I understand the aversion or at least the difficulty many people had/have with composers like Wetz or von Hausegger and, of course, others who have been discussed on this forum before. Their political views may well be anathema to most people. How sincerely they held these views may be debated in individual cases. Sometimes they were more guilty of astonishing naivety. There are other composers who flourished in different totalitarian regimes and yet others whose personal morality or lack of it may appall or disgust some of us. It is a never-ending debate and I must respect the sincerely held views of others.
Going back to Bohnke...having now listened to his Symphony all the way through I am struck by what a remarkable piece it actually is. A very angry work, full of post-Mahlerian angst and passion but really very impressive!
Most artists are conformists. Like most human beings they adapt to the status quo, because they want fame, recognition, attention, a position, an income (which means that if the times are rebellious, the artists are rebellious, when the times are pious, so are the artists...). It would be wonderful if artists had as firm a grasp of their art as of the times they live in. But they very often haven't.
I personally admire those artists the most who are masterly in their works and in their lives. But I am always interested in finding a human being in a work of art. That's why I can listen to Wetz.
And now I am off to bed.
Quote from: Jezetha on April 08, 2008, 04:25:15 PM
Most artists are conformists. Like most human beings they adapt to the status quo, because they want fame, recognition, attention, a position, an income (which means that if the times are rebellious, the artists are rebellious, when the times are pious, so are the artists...). It would be wonderful if artists had as firm a grasp of their art as of the times they live in. But they very often haven't.
I personally admire those artists the most who are masterly in their works and in their lives. But I am always interested in finding a human being in a work of art. That's why I can listen to Wetz.
And now I am off to bed.
So very true!!
Interesting discussion going on here. I know that the politics of the composer should not get in the way of my interest/appreciation of their music but the fact remains that it does although this would not prevent me from\listening to a composer whose views I disliked. I come from a Jewish background so that is my excuse anyway.
Very glad, Colin that you enjoy the Bohnke and, despite the above, I have a high opinion of the Wetz Symphony 3, which I have been listening to.
Karl Amadeus Hatmann is a composer whose political stance during the Third Reich I greatly admire but I have some trouble appreciating his music (apart from Concerto Funebre and Symphony 4)
Quote from: vandermolen on April 08, 2008, 11:34:06 PM
Karl Amadeus Hartmann is a composer whose political stance during the Third Reich I greatly admire but I have some trouble appreciating his music (apart from Concerto Funebre and Symphony 4)
You are under no obligation to love the work of a morally sound composer, Jeffrey! (My Hartmann favourites by the way are those works you mention, and the 2nd, 3rd and 6th.)
Quote from: Jezetha on April 08, 2008, 11:57:44 PM
You are under no obligation to love the work of a morally sound composer, Jeffrey! (My Hartmann favourites by the way are those works you mention, and the 2nd, 3rd and 6th.)
Good morning Johan!
Yes, I'd forgotten about No 6, which I do like. When I heard that Hartmann had banned the German radio (during the period of the Third Reich) from playing any of his music except his string quartet based on jewish themes, I rushed out and bought a boxed LP set of his symphonies (on Wergo) but I did rather struggle with some of them.
Quote from: vandermolen on April 09, 2008, 12:19:41 AM
Good morning Johan!
Yes, I'd forgotten about No 6, which I do like. When I heard that Hartmann had banned the German radio (during the period of the Third Reich) from playing any of his music except his string quartet based on jewish themes, I rushed out and bought a boxed LP set of his symphonies (on Wergo) but I did rather struggle with some of them.
Rushing Out To Struggle - excellent title.
Quote from: vandermolen on April 08, 2008, 11:34:06 PM
(apart from Concerto Funebre and Symphony 4)
Strangely enough - or maybe; not - these are my two favourite Hartmann works as well.
Quote from: erato on April 09, 2008, 01:01:30 AM
Strangely enough - or maybe; not - these are my two favourite Hartmann works as well.
I think that they are both powerful and extremely moving works. The Concerto written at the time of the Nazi occupation of Czechoslovakia and quoting Czech-Hussite hymns was another bravely defiant statement from Hartmann.
I have to say that I struggle with some later Hartmann as well although I can recognize a composer of very great substance and huge integrity(both musical and personal!). I certainly agree that the Concerto funebre is a most moving work.
Hartmann's stance politically during the 1930s/40s is deserving of the greatest admiration. The attitudes of other German composers were touched on in the thread I started some time ago on German composers of the period. The point behind that thread was to attempt to suggest that we should-at least-explore the music written in Germany by composers who chose to stay and work in their native country. A lot of effort has-quite correctly-gone into reviving music banned by the regime, music written by the victims of the regime(victims including those who fled from Germany and, of course, those who paid the ultimate price!). The task of giving those victim composers the due denied to them between 1933 and 1945 must continue.
I am extremely hesitant to say anything at all which might be taken to suggest that I am trying to defend those other composers who stayed in Germany, continued to compose, perhaps flourished during these years, let alone those who enthusiastically embraced the 'philosophy' and ethos of the regime. There are millions who have excellent personal reasons to detest everything it stood for and all of us-I hope-can recognize how utterly abhorrent it was.
Those composers who worked on in Germany and whose works were performed should not necessarily be simply lumped together however. Their music requires to be considered individually. So too-if we are so inclined-should their personal positions and attitudes.
That is where it becomes more tricky! There were clearly those who disagreed fundamentally with the regime and found themselves in increasing difficulties with it. They had more and more difficulty in having their music performed-even if(some of it) may have been considered musically acceptable. Some were dismissed from teaching posts during the period in question. (I am thinking about someone like Boris Blacher here.) Others adopted the position of the totally apolitical animal, in many cases continuing teaching in music schools and 'got on with it'. Some definitely prospered. I could-but won't-try discussing the stance adopted by composers like Strauss or Pfitzner. There are composers like Carl Orff or Werner Egk-whose personal political views I simply do not know enough about.
(I am aware too of the possible parallels with the Russian composers of the 1930s-early 1950s(and beyond) who had to make accommodations with the Soviet regime and turn out potboiler cantatas praising Stalin and his policies!)
Wetz was,apparently, a strong German nationalist(as, of course, were many, many Germans of the period!). He joined the party and was, apparently, enthusiastic about its aims and policies. He died in early 1935-certainly not before many of these policies were already beginning to be put into hideous implementation but still relatively early in the life of the regime. I could therefore try to construct an argument which would be construed as a plea in his defence. Ultimately, however, that would be pointless.
It is, almost certainly, best left to the individual to make his or her own mind up-whether to condemn these composers out of hand and refuse to listen to their music at all(the obvious case of some people's attitude to Wagner, for example!) or to listen to the music and assess it for its intrinsic merit or lack of it.
My sincere apologies for rambling at such length and ultimately so indecisively! It is such a complex subject that it deserves a lot more than one person's (over-extended) contribution.
Colin,
I think that what you say is very eloquent (not "rambling" at all) and I largely agree with you. I think that there is a big difference between composers who happened to remain in Germany during that period and enthusiastic supporters of the regime and, whatever the case, I think that one can still value the intrinsic worth of the music regardless of the political affiliations of the composer.
I love Atterberg's 3rd, 7th and 8th symphonies but am aware that the 7th or 8th (I don't have the information in front of me) was first performed in Hamburg in 1943. I am a bit uncomfortable with this but it does not stop me appreciating the music as a great work.
Morning, all! Continuing the discussion, what are we to do with a work like this:
http://www.requiemsurvey.org/composers.php?id=287
I understand your strictures, Jeffrey. But just suppose the music is really wonderful...
Art can be as messy as history.
Quote from: Jezetha on April 09, 2008, 11:51:04 PM
Morning, all! Continuing the discussion, what are we to do with a work like this:
http://www.requiemsurvey.org/composers.php?id=287
I understand your strictures, Jeffrey. But just suppose the music is really wonderful...
Art can be as messy as history.
I doubt somehow that Erdlen's Requiem is wonderful music! Apparently he wrote a Cantata-the Saarkantata-commissioned to be broadcast before the inhabitants of the Saarland voted in the plebiscite to decide on reunion with Germany. Each section focuses on aspects of Nazi thought! Erdlen died in 1972 and continued composing after the war. Something tells me that it is pretty unlikely we shall ever hear much of it!!
On the other hand......Prokofiev wrote his Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October Revolution and the Cantata "Zdravitsa"(Hail to Stalin) and Shostakovich wrote a number of similar works.
Good morning to you too
I remember Andre Previn doing a TV programme years ago about forgotten composers. I recall that photograph of one dressed in a Nazi uniform. Maybe that is the one featured in Johan's post!
Quote from: Dundonnell on April 10, 2008, 12:11:12 AM
I doubt somehow that Erdlen's Requiem is wonderful music! Apparently he wrote a Cantata-the Saarkantata-commissioned to be broadcast before the inhabitants of the Saarland voted in the plebiscite to decide on reunion with Germany. Each section focuses on aspects of Nazi thought! Erdlen died in 1972 and continued composing after the war. Something tells me that it is pretty unlikely we shall ever hear much of it!!
I think you're right... Though a Double Fugue on
'Die Fahne Hoch' would still rank as an achievement.
Just joking.
Quote from: vandermolen on April 09, 2008, 11:36:41 PM
Colin,
I think that what you say is very eloquent (not "rambling" at all) and I largely agree with you. I think that there is a big difference between composers who happened to remain in Germany during that period and enthusiastic supporters of the regime and, whatever the case, I think that one can still value the intrinsic worth of the music regardless of the political affiliations of the composer.
I love Atterberg's 3rd, 7th and 8th symphonies but am aware that the 7th or 8th (I don't have the information in front of me) was first performed in Hamburg in 1943. I am a bit uncomfortable with this but it does not stop me appreciating the music as a great work.
It was Atterberg's 7th symphony which was premiered in Frankfurt in 1943 by Hermann Abendroth. Just to set the record straight!
The Danish composer, Paul von Klenau, whose symphonies I am discovering with much pleasure, worked in Germany in the 1930s although he returned to Denmark in 1940. One could also cite Jon Leifs, the great Icelandic composer, who also lived and composed in Germany during the thirties. And of course the controversy over your own Dutch composer, Henk Badings, Johan!
Yes, Badings has been almost totally neglected here because of his stance during the war. And I don't see his return to the concert-hall very soon. CPO is the only venue he'll be playing at for quite some time.
Quote from: Dundonnell on April 10, 2008, 12:24:27 AM
It was Atterberg's 7th symphony which was premiered in Frankfurt in 1943 by Hermann Abendroth. Just to set the record straight!
The Danish composer, Paul von Klenau, whose symphonies I am discovering with much pleasure, worked in Germany in the 1930s although he returned to Denmark in 1940. One could also cite Jon Leifs, the great Icelandic composer, who also lived and composed in Germany during the thirties. And of course the controversy over your own Dutch composer, Henk Badings, Johan!
I enjoy much of the music of Leifs. I gather that he was unjustly accused of Nazi sympathies. His wife was of jewish origins.
Quote from: Jezetha on April 10, 2008, 12:32:37 AM
Yes, Badings has been almost totally neglected here because of his stance during the war. And I don't see his return to the concert-hall very soon. CPO is the only venue he'll be playing at for quite some time.
I thought that there had been a recent mini-festival of Badings' music in Rotterdam in October?
http://www.donemus.nl/nieuws_details.php?id=1256&lang=EN
Quote from: Dundonnell on April 10, 2008, 12:37:05 AM
http://www.donemus.nl/nieuws_details.php?id=1256&lang=EN
I missed that. Well, it confirms handsomely what I said earlier - the war generation is dying, and the 'banned' composers are coming back...
Quote from: Jezetha on April 10, 2008, 12:38:57 AM
I missed that. Well, it confirms handsomely what I said earlier - the war generation is dying, and the 'banned' composers are coming back...
Indeed!
I'm enjoying Wetz's 1st symphony for the second time this morning, after having heard his three symphonies last weekend.
I'm pleased and excited to have been introduced to this composer by Sarge (in another thread here at GMG). Like Sarge, I dearly love these academic, rather conservative composers in the Brahms/Bruckner mold, who pursue their craft with serious dedication.
I really hope to be able to hear Wetz's string quartets sometime in the near future!
Ah, I vaguely remember hearing some of this man's work on radio back in the early Eighties.
Someone tossed the violin concerto off YouTube - rats - I will have to seek it out elsewhere.
Investigating the music - thanks for the *bump* - love finding these 2nd-to-3rd tier composers who wrote very entertaining if not groundbreaking music. They may not get the press these days that self-hip'd "critics" give some piece by, say, Cage or _____________, but neither will they cause patrons to flee a cafe/recital, knocking over their chairs in their rush to get out of the establishment, that many of these second-half-20th-century 'composers' can.
;)
From what I've heard, I think Wetz might be a composer I'd enjoy. It would be great if cpo would issue a box of their Wetz recordings - but then that might encourage people to buy it, which would never do!
There was a recording of the second string quartet, but it's NA:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GlhblW8XL.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Streichquartette-Jahrhunderts-Anthologie-Deutscher-Musik/dp/B005A8CYPG/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1336368578&sr=1-1)
Quote from: eyeresist on May 06, 2012, 09:42:02 PM
From what I've heard, I think Wetz might be a composer I'd enjoy. It would be great if cpo would issue a box of their Wetz recordings - but then that might encourage people to buy it, which would never do!
There was a recording of the second string quartet, but it's NA:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GlhblW8XL.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Streichquartette-Jahrhunderts-Anthologie-Deutscher-Musik/dp/B005A8CYPG/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1336368578&sr=1-1)
Man, I've got to hear Wetz's chamber music! Thanks for the heads up there!
Wetz was,apparently, a strong German nationalist(as, of course, were many, many Germans of the period!). He joined the party and was, apparently, enthusiastic about its aims and policies.
From what I've been able to read here and there, he was one of the many Germans who, bitterly disappointed by the re-drawing of the map after Versailles, joined the party for pan-German nationalist feelings rather than any anti-Semitic ones . . . while not excusing him, he, like many others, "probably" thought that stuff would be pushed to the 'fringe' and forgotten as the politics recovered what he felt were German territories. And like so many millions of others, he would have found out if he had lived just what sort of regime he had been supporting. If anyone has found in a biography any statements or writings of his supporting the 'darker' aims of National Socialism, please bring these to this thread. I'd be very interested in reading them.
Do you guys have a preferation of any of his orchestral works?
Quote from: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on October 29, 2012, 06:09:05 AM
Do you guys have a preferation of any of his orchestral works?
I'd start with Symphony No 1-3 on CPO. For example, this recording:
[asin]B00004HYO0[/asin]
Anyone heard or know of a recording of the string quartets he wrote?
Never mind - I'm blind - I see there is a prev post on the 2nd at least. Duh.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 29, 2012, 06:29:39 AM
I'd start with Symphony No 1-3 on CPO. For example, this recording:
[asin]B00004HYO0[/asin]
That's the one I chose to start exploring his symphonies. I have the other two still wrapped waiting in the pile. In the past I've enjoyed his subdued, low-key Requiem (is that an oxymoron ? ::)).
I've read about his life, his style, in various articles, reviews and the booklet notes from the CPO disc. There is a bit of Bruckner in the symphony, esp. a near quote of the adagio of the B7 in the 1st movement, but generally I don't detect much else in terms of a putative influence. The very start of the work made me think initially of Dvorak's 6th (first mov.) but upon the 3rd listening I decided it was Delius, not Dvorak that was the closest to that beautiful beginning. Date-wise it is entirely possible Wetz may have heard some Delius (he was well regarded in Germany), but it seems he settled in provincial Erfurt in 1906 and spent the rest of his life there. Was Delius played in Erfurt ? In the third movement there is more angularity, even hints of chromaticism that signal an awareness of contemporary developments.
I was drawn to the work for a second and then a third listening. Nothing bold or striking, just a feeling of appreciation for the composer's obvious thematic gift and his talent for developing his material logically and with assurance. There were a lot of German composers in the post-romantic era (say, 1910-1935) who steadfastly composed in an idiom that harked back some 50 years as if nothing had happened in the interregnum. The advent of the War and the violent drive toward modernism that followed effectively buried the reputation these composers may once have enjoyed. We have to thank CPO for letting some air and light in the dungeon of artistic oblivion. I don't think we'll see composers such as Braunfels, Boehe, Weingartner and Wetz in symphony programs outside of Germany, but at least we have the recordings.
Cross post from "What are you listening to" thread
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 14, 2021, 03:15:09 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/712YAGS9vtL._SL500_.jpg)
Richard Wetz: Symphony No.2 in A major, op.47; Kleist Overture, op.16. Werner Andreas Albert, Staatsphilharmonie Rheinland-Pfalz
Wow, I'm really enjoying this disc. I don't often go for the "unsung late Romantics", but there is something in Wetz's music that speaks to me. Clearly, he drew much influence from the music of Anton Bruckner, but there is maybe something more intimate or even sentimental in Wetz's melodicism, and perhaps more early 20th century color to his orchestral pallet. I would love to hear more, though little has been recorded.
I'm enjoying this CPO disc a lot. Anyone listening to Wetz recently?
Quote from: vers la flamme on June 14, 2021, 03:23:49 PM
Cross post from "What are you listening to" thread
I'm enjoying this CPO disc a lot. Anyone listening to Wetz recently?
Hugely impressed by the first symphony:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Q8LxNUdpL._AC_.jpg)
There are strong hints of Bruckner all right, but also premonitions of Braunfels. I found the work engrossing on all levels: melodic, harmonic, rythmic - Wetz ticks all the boxes here.
Quote from: André on July 08, 2021, 05:58:52 PM
Hugely impressed by the first symphony:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Q8LxNUdpL._AC_.jpg)
There are strong hints of Bruckner all right, but also premonitions of Braunfels. I found the work engrossing on all levels: melodic, harmonic, rythmic - Wetz ticks all the boxes here.
I've never heard any Braunfels.
I have the complete CPO set of Wetz's symphonies now, but still have only listened to the 2nd. I've also heard the 3rd as conducted by Erich Peter. It's more challenging I think, quite a bit longer. Excited to check out the 1st, now.
Bump for a composer I've been greatly enjoying lately.
I doubt Wetz's music will ever gain much traction, being that he was a card-carrying Nazi, and wrote in a somewhat anachronistic idiom. But I am finding much of his music to be very interesting when in a particular mood. I think I have just about everything that has been recorded: the symphony cycle on CPO, plus the Christmas Oratorio and Requiem on two separate discs. Now I just need to track down the old Mannheimer Streichquartett recording which features one of his quartets.
My favorite is, I think, the 3rd symphony, although I like the 2nd quite a bit too, and the Kleist Overture. I've listened to the Requiem a couple of times too and found it very attractive.
Well that's even more reason to ignore him then.
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 29, 2022, 01:43:11 AM
Well that's even more reason to ignore him then.
I expect many will share this belief.
I'm not happy about his wartime politics - he seemed to be drawn by a desire to restore the German Empire to greatness (reunification) rather than the racial philosophies - however, he had to have known what National Socialism represented.
Setting that aside, there is nothing in the music that promotes said philosophy. He was a decent enough romantic tunesmith/craftsman.
I put him in the same category as Atterberg.