Poll
Question:
Is Debussy's 'Pelleas et Melisande' the only completely successful Wagneresque opera ever written ?
Option 1: Yes
votes: 3
Option 2: No
votes: 13
Option 3: Not sure what he means by that.
votes: 10
Earlier this week veteran classical music critic for The New York Times, Bernard Holland, wrote the following:
"The only completely successful Wagneresque opera ever written is Debussy's Pelléas et Mélisande .
Do you agree with him ?
It was a passing comment while reviewing works by Chausson and Copland.
You can RTWT here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/03/arts/music/03orph.html?st=cse&sq=wagneresque&scp=1
To me, that is meaningless jibber-jabber. Wagner is Wagner and Debussy is Debussy.
There is some influence on Debussy by Wagner, but that statement implies that Debussy set out to write the sort of opera - which Wagner didn't really do after Holländer - that Wagner would have written.
I don't think Debussy intended to do that, since Wagner covered much the same thematic ground with Tristan.
Not that it matters, and I would assume that all that could be said about the instant work has been said.
Hansel and Gretel.
I rest my case.
Mike
Quote from: knight on April 06, 2008, 12:07:54 AM
Hansel and Gretel.
I rest my case.
Mike
Your case is airtight, Mike.
Sarge
Pelléas and Melisande, no doubt - AND of course Uguns un Nakts (1919) by Jānis Mediņš, another worthy contender
Uguns un Nakts (1919) by Jānis Mediņš.
Now you are going to get some kind of prize for this nomination. I have never heard of the work or its composer. Care to fill it out for us a bit?
Mike
As an opera, I'm not sure that Pelleas is entirely successful. I find that the overall tension of the storyline fails to stretch to the length of the work. Neither would I call it Wagneresque, whatever that means. However, if you are looking for contenders, I will suggest The WRECKERS.
Quote from: Christo on April 06, 2008, 05:36:42 AM
Pelléas and Melisande, no doubt - AND of course Uguns un Nakts (1919) by Jānis Mediņš, another worthy contender
How
could I forget him?!
Who he?
Quote from: knight on April 06, 2008, 06:54:56 AM
Uguns un Nakts (1919) by Jānis Mediņš. (...) Care to fill it out for us a bit?
Uguns un nakts (Fire and Night, 1913-1919) was one of the first `national' Latvian operas - the other being Baņuta by Alfrēds Kalniņš. After the Latvian independence, it was staged in the Opera of Riga in 1921. The libretto is based on a story by the Latvian national writer and poet, Jānis Rainis (as you might accidentally have observed, a central figure in the permanent exhibition of the Museum of Latvian Literature in Riga).
Uguns un nakts has remained Mediņš' most well-known opera. Other ones being:
Dievi un cilvēki (Gods and Men, 1922),
Sprīdītis (1925),
Luteklīte (1939). As many Baltic composers and musicians, Mediņš (1890-1966) fled for the second Soviet occupation, in 1944, to Sweden. And as all other Baltic refugees there (e.g. Eduard Tubin, the Estonian), he was largely ignored by the Swedish musical establishment.
His operas are nowadays being staged in Riga again, but I was unable to attend one of them, so far.
Quote from: Christo on April 06, 2008, 11:04:28 AM
Uguns un nakts (Fire and Night, 1913-1919) was one of the first `national' Latvian operas - the other being Baņuta by Alfrēds Kalniņš. After the Latvian independence, it was staged in the Opera of Riga in 1921. The libretto is based on a story by the Latvian national writer and poet, Jānis Rainis (as you might accidentally have observed, a central figure in the permanent exhibition of the Museum of Latvian Literature in Riga).
Uguns un nakts has remained Mediņš' most well-known opera. Other ones being: Dievi un cilvēki (Gods and Men, 1922), Sprīdītis (1925), Luteklīte (1939). As many Baltic composers and musicians, Mediņš (1890-1966) fled for the second Soviet occupation, in 1944, to Sweden. And as all other Baltic refugees there (e.g. Eduard Tubin, the Estonian), he was largely ignored by the Swedish musical establishment.
His operas are nowadays being staged in Riga again, but I was unable to attend one of them, so far.
Fascinating. Do you know anything about the musical style? Looking at his titles, they are all rather mythological. So - was Mediņš a Latvian Wagnerian?
Quote from: Jezetha on April 06, 2008, 11:10:50 AM
Fascinating. Do you know anything about the musical style? Looking at his titles, they are all rather mythological. So - was Mediņš a Latvian Wagnerian?
As far as I know - yes, he was. And that's the reason I came up with his name. But alas, I know very little else, as I (a) hardly play any operas at all, and (b) happen to know only one Latvian opera, accidentally, namely the more traditional (`nationalist school') Baņuta, by Alfrēds Kalniņš. My interest lies more in Latvian symphonic composers, from Jāzeps Vītols to Pēteris Vasks,
Perhaps there's a better informed, Latvian Wagnerite in this forum?
Quote from: Operahaven on April 05, 2008, 05:23:16 PM
Earlier this week veteran classical music critic for The New York Times, Bernard Holland, wrote the following:
"The only completely successful Wagneresque opera ever written is Debussy's Pelléas et Mélisande .
Do you agree with him ?
It was a passing comment while reviewing works by Chausson and Copland.
You can RTWT here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/03/arts/music/03orph.html?st=cse&sq=wagneresque&scp=1
hmmm...not sure what reaction if any I'll get here but I find that verissimo operas (especially Tosca, Madam Butterfly Cav/Pag) to be very Wagneresque :o. I know that Puccini was sent to Bayreuth to attend a performance of Die Meistersinger before composing Manon Lescaut. It is very possible that he was influenced by Wagner ;).
marvin
Quote from: Christo on April 06, 2008, 11:31:44 AM
Perhaps there's a better informed, Latvian Wagnerite in this forum?
I am virtually certain that none here is as well informed as you.
Quote from: marvinbrown on April 06, 2008, 11:58:35 AM
hmmm...not sure what reaction if any I'll get here but I find that verissimo operas (especially Tosca, Madam Butterfly Cav/Pag) to be very Wagneresque :o. I know that Puccini was sent to Bayreuth to attend a performance of Die Meistersinger before composing Manon Lescaut. It is very possible that he was influenced by Wagner ;).
marvin
I find there is at least as much Wagner in Puccini as there is of Verdi. Also Puccini had more in common with Wagner's character, the womanizing for instance and a yearning for luxury. The love scenes especially in Puccini are incredibly opulent far more so than anything I can think of in Verdi. Sometimes I wonder if practice makes perfect in art!
At least to some extent, the sound world of Puccini reminds me of Wagner but in Puccini's own magnificient Italian style.
Quote from: max on April 15, 2008, 06:14:47 PM
I find there is at least as much Wagner in Puccini as there is of Verdi. Also Puccini had more in common with Wagner's character, the womanizing for instance and a yearning for luxury. The love scenes especially in Puccini are incredibly opulent far more so than anything I can think of in Verdi. Sometimes I wonder if practice makes perfect in art!
At least to some extent, the sound world of Puccini reminds me of Wagner but in Puccini's own magnificient Italian style.
No doubt you're right. One of the main themes in Act Three of Tosca, for instance, is almost a direct ripoff from a theme in Parsifal.
Puccini admired Wagner. In my opinion, the opera which is the most influenced by Wagner Style, is La Fanciulla del West, where Puccini knowingly avoided writing noticeable arias (although he had a little 'accident' in the last act with "Ch'ella mi creda"...) and he used in La Fanciulla his largest and the most sophisticated set of leitmotivs.
Quote from: T-C on April 15, 2008, 08:47:36 PM
Puccini admired Wagner. In my opinion, the opera which is the most influenced by Wagner Style, is La Fanciulla del West, where Puccini knowingly avoided writing noticeable arias (although he had a little ‘accident’ in the last act with “Ch'ella mi creda”…) and he used in La Fanciulla his largest and the most sophisticated set of leitmotivs.
...all I can say is NO ONE equals the Master of the Leitmotiv but “Ch'ella mi creda” is worthy of the greatest composers as short as it is and especially as sung by Jussi Bjorling! In fact, you couldn't have picked a more Wagnerian Italianesque aria...accident or not, imo!
Quote from: Sforzando on April 15, 2008, 07:33:51 PM
No doubt you're right. One of the main themes in Act Three of Tosca, for instance, is almost a direct ripoff from a theme in Parsifal.
That's a parallel which eluded me. Thanks for pointing it out. It's been a while since I listened to Tosca...one of the best marriages of Wagnerian weight to Italian melody I can think of!
Along that line I think Turandot could have been, if completed, one of his greatest conceptions. But one thing's for certain: I can't imagine any great Italian opera, Wagner emulated or not, without their corresponding great arias. The teutonic conception was always different from the Latin but their points of fusion have always been terrific investments in music. Mozart and I would include Handel were perhaps the Sine qua non of that endeavour.
Quote from: max on April 15, 2008, 10:47:13 PM
...all I can say is NO ONE equals the Master of the Leitmotiv
Max,
What I really meant, is that in La Fanciulla del West Puccini had his most extensive and sophisticated use of leitmotiv in relation to other Puccini operas, not to Wagner's operas. Of course, no one can be compared in this aspect to Wagner of the Ring.
Another strong association of Wagner in La Fanciulla, is the kiss scene in Act II, where the door is suddenly opened and the winter breaks into the room. Very similar to Die Walküre end of Act I... But the use of whole-note scale here and elsewhere in La Fanciulla is an example of another strong influence on Puccini's style in that period: French impressionism, especially Debussy of Palleas et Melisande.
It was Anton Webern, who after hearing a performance of La Fanciulla del West in Vienna in 1919 wrote to his mentor Arnold Schoenberg: "La Fanciulla is a score with an original sound throughout, splendid, every bar a surprise... I enjoyed it very much..."
So, definitely, Puccini had a few good ideas of his own...
Quote from: knight on April 06, 2008, 12:07:54 AM
Hansel and Gretel.
I rest my case.
Mike
Which is Wagnerian but, if it had been written with a French libretto, would have been Wagneresque!
Quote from: Hector on April 16, 2008, 06:28:16 AM
Which is Wagnerian but, if it had been written with a French libretto, would have been Wagneresque!
Beautiful nitpick!
P.S. I have just discovered I have become the only Doppel-Silversubscriber of the board... ???
Quote from: T-C on April 15, 2008, 11:43:59 PM
So, definitely, Puccini had a few good ideas of his own...
:D That's quite an understatement!
Quote from: Jezetha on April 16, 2008, 06:32:16 AM
P.S. I have just discovered I have become the only Doppel-Silversubscriber of the board... ???
That is odd ... are you sure there aren't two of you? ;)
Quote from: Brian on April 16, 2008, 01:38:46 PM
That is odd ... are you sure there aren't two of you? ;)
Well, I am Twins (both astrological sign AND in reality (twin sister))...
Quote from: Jezetha on April 16, 2008, 06:32:16 AM
Beautiful nitpick!
P.S. I have just discovered I have become the only Doppel-Silversubscriber of the board... ???
Whadya want a prize...or two? ;D
Quote from: Jezetha on April 16, 2008, 01:43:29 PM
Well, I am Twins (both astrological sign AND in reality (twin sister))...
;D I am gemini by birth and had twins - boy and a girl.
Quote from: Anne on April 30, 2008, 07:42:10 PM
;D I am gemini by birth and had twins - boy and a girl.
Holy two! as Robin would have said (you know, Batman's little friend).
Jezethanne is stalking the board...
Being a shameless Wagnerite, this thread had made me determined now to check out this piece by DeBussy.
I always figured "Elektra" was about the most successful, Wagner-ian opera since the man himself.
Quote from: AndyD. on May 01, 2008, 12:41:55 PM
Being a shameless Wagnerite, this thread had made me determined now to check out this piece by DeBussy.
Andy,
Will you report back to us with your impressions ?
Quote from: Operahaven on May 01, 2008, 01:41:59 PM
Andy,
Will you report back to us with your impressions ?
Definite. Just need to buy the darn thing!
Quote from: AndyD. on May 01, 2008, 01:45:04 PM
Definite. Just need to buy the darn thing!
Andy,
There is no need to.
I will gladly give you one of mine since there are at least 30 recordings on my shelf... Shoot me a PM.
Quote from: AndyD. on May 01, 2008, 12:41:55 PM
Being a shameless Wagnerite, this thread had made me determined now to check out this piece by DeBussy.
A word of caution
AndyD, while parallels can be drawn between Debussy's P+M and Wagner's Parsifal, I find P+M softer, quieter and far more mellow than Parsifal. P+M does not have an ounce of that wonderfull Wagnerian power you would find in the Ring, nor the ultra-intense passion of Wagner's Tristan, nor the lyrical lightheartedness of Die Meistersinger. This is why I voted that I do not understand what is meant by the Only Wagneresque Opera ??? ??
marvin
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 02, 2008, 03:07:42 AM
This is why I voted that I do not understand what is meant by the Only Wagneresque Opera ??? ??
Though I haven't voted, I do understand it. If you see Wagner's operas as a progression,
Parsifal is the subtlest thing he ever wrote. It is much more abstract than the other music dramas, the sense of 'lived life' isn't so strong anymore, and the characters too are more symbolic (compare Alberich/Hagen and Klingsor, for example). The music is much more restrained and pared down (think of the Prelude), and also the orchestration is a miracle of refinement. Well,
Pelléas et Mélisande is generally regarded as a work that carries this another step further. And I personally have always felt it that way, too -
Pelléas et Mélisande seems, in a sense, to begin where
Parsifal left off, the
nec plus ultra of poetic subtlety in opera, IMO.
Quote from: Jezetha on May 02, 2008, 03:26:05 AM
Though I haven't voted, I do understand it. If you see Wagner's operas as a progression, Parsifal is the most subtle thing he ever wrote. It is much more abstract than the other music dramas, the sense of 'lived life' isn't so strong anymore, and the characters too are more symbolic (compare Alberich/Hagen and Klingsor, for example). The music is much more restrained and pared down (think of the Prelude), and also the orchestration is a miracle of refinement. Well, Pelléas et Mélisande is generally regarded as a work that carries this another step further. And I personally have always felt it that way, too - Pelléas et Mélisande seems, in a sense, to begin where Parsifal left off, the nec plus ultra of poetic subtlety in opera, IMO.
In the context of musical progression I could see how your argument could be valid. However I find it hard to believe that Wagner would compose an opera like P+M- it just lacks that Wagerian oomph, passion, fire whatever you want to call it.
marvin
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 02, 2008, 03:46:18 AM
In the context of musical progression I could see how your argument could be valid. However I find it hard to believe that Wagner would compose an opera like P+M- it just lacks that Wagnerian oomph, passion, fire whatever you want to call it.
marvin
Well, of course Wagner and Debussy are two very different composers, living through different times, born in different countries et cetera. And
Pelléas simply doesn't aim for 'oomph, passion, fire'. It is a rather melancholy work set in a melancholy world. And there
is a parallel with
Parsifal there, too - think of the Grail world before Parsifal reinvigorates it at the end, think of that wonderful Prelude to the final act of
Parsifal with its weariness and pain (which the Good Friday music will turn to radiance, of course - and there is that Wagnerian 'oomph'!)
Quote from: Anne on April 30, 2008, 07:42:10 PM
;D I am gemini by birth and had twins - boy and a girl.
Congrats. Best to have them together. Saves problems later on.
Have a drink on me...or two ;D
Quote from: Jezetha on April 30, 2008, 11:12:03 PM
Holy two! as Robin would have said (you know, Batman's little friend).
Jezethanne is stalking the board...
I remember when the theme song for the TV program came on TV. From all over the house came voices of the children singing as they sat down to watch their favorite program.
Quote from: Hector on May 02, 2008, 05:46:24 AM
Congrats. Best to have them together. Saves problems later on.
Have a drink on me...or two ;D
Agreed. Thank you! Do believe I will! Cheers!
Quote from: Jezetha on May 02, 2008, 03:26:05 AM
Though I haven't voted, I do understand it. If you see Wagner's operas as a progression, Parsifal is the most subtle thing he ever wrote. It is much more abstract than the other music dramas, the sense of 'lived life' isn't so strong anymore, and the characters too are more symbolic (compare Alberich/Hagen and Klingsor, for example). The music is much more restrained and pared down (think of the Prelude), and also the orchestration is a miracle of refinement. Well, Pelléas et Mélisande is generally regarded as a work that carries this another step further. And I personally have always felt it that way, too - Pelléas et Mélisande seems, in a sense, to begin where Parsifal left off, the nec plus ultra of poetic subtlety in opera, IMO.
You are making this sound really great,
J.
If you want to hear a great Wagneresque opera get the recent Telarc CD of Ernest
Chausson's gorgeous opera Le Roi Arthus (King Arthur) conducted by Leon Botstein, who has also
done a concert performance in New York. I haven't heard this recording, but it's gotten very
good reviews.
I got to know this opera from the Erato Cd conducted by the late Armin Jordan, with
Gino Quilico and the late Gosta Winbergh, which I believe is no longer available.
Chausson was an ardent Wagnerite, and the Wagnerian influence is very much in evidence,
but the music still has the composer's own individual voice.
This is his only opera and was premiered in Brussels a few years after his untimely death
in a bicycle accident, a tragic loss.
Quote from: Superhorn on September 17, 2008, 12:32:52 PM
If you want to hear a great Wagneresque opera get the recent Telarc CD of Ernest
Chausson's gorgeous opera Le Roi Arthus (King Arthur) conducted by Leon Botstein, who has also
done a concert performance in New York. I haven't heard this recording, but it's gotten very
good reviews.
I got to know this opera from the Erato Cd conducted by the late Armin Jordan, with
Gino Quilico and the late Gosta Winbergh, which I believe is no longer available.
Chausson was an ardent Wagnerite, and the Wagnerian influence is very much in evidence,
but the music still has the composer's own individual voice.
This is his only opera and was premiered in Brussels a few years after his untimely death
in a bicycle accident, a tragic loss.
Great post! Can you tell us some dates? Life of composer or when the opera was written? Thanks.
Quote from: Anne on September 17, 2008, 09:17:32 PM
Great post! Can you tell us some dates? Life of composer or when the opera was written? Thanks.
Yes I too am unfamiliar with this opera. I would appreciate more information.
marvin
Ernest Chausson was a fine french composer who lived from 1855 - 1899. His music is lushly romatic and his output includes a symphony,
the opera Le Roi Arthus, the Poeme for violin and orchestra and other works. Check arkivmusic.com for the recent Telarc release of the opera.
The opera deals with king Arthur and his court, and queen Guinivere's illicit romance with Lancelot and the rebellion and conflict which ensues.
Quote from: Superhorn on September 21, 2008, 06:36:08 AM
Ernest Chausson was a fine french composer who lived from 1855 - 1899. His music is lushly romatic and his output includes a symphony,
the opera Le Roi Arthus, the Poeme for violin and orchestra and other works. Check arkivmusic.com for the recent Telarc release of the opera.
The opera deals with king Arthur and his court, and queen Guinivere's illicit romance with Lancelot and the rebellion and conflict which ensues.
Also, he wrote a truly great symphony.
I'll add Lalo's 'Le Roi d'Ys' which was broadcast last Thursday pm by R3. The overture echoes 'Tannhauser' and the opera is reminiscent of that era of Wagner with oft repeated themes (not the Lalo/French equivalent of leitmotivs).
This was recorded live from the Capitole Toulouse where, we were told, the producers flooded the stage at the end!
No-Time Toulouse
Chausson is a good and often overlooked composer but i wouldn't call his music "Wagneresque". Same goes for Debussy really. I don't get what the original author was trying to aim at with that comparison.
Quote from: karlhenning on September 24, 2008, 06:38:25 AM
No-Time Toulouse
I could say that joke is Capitole but I won't!