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The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => Topic started by: Chaszz on May 01, 2008, 08:57:21 AM

Title: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Chaszz on May 01, 2008, 08:57:21 AM
Not necessarily the same five choices.

My five favorites to listen to:

Bach
Wagner
Brahms
R. Strauss
Sibelius


The five I think are greatest, by a combination of posterity/informed opinion and, to a lesser extent, my own somewhat more objective appraisal:

Bach
Beethoven
Mozart
Handel
Wagner

Although like a game, I think this is serious business. A philosophic question of the relation of one's own preferences to a putatively more objective mode of reality, making allowances for the informed taste of two or three centuries of musicians, crtitics and listeners. Every time another listener reports a strong reaction to a work that leaves you indifferent, this question is being put.   
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Lethevich on May 01, 2008, 11:35:16 AM
An interesting thread, as my favourites slightly clash with my objective sense of what is great.

Major composers who I find to probably best fit the qualities of "greatness" more than others: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner (with many very close to these, of course).

Major composers who I listen to most overall: Haydn, Sibelius, Brahms, Liszt, Dvořák. All major of course, but not the above super transcendent ones whom many people seem to find endless riches in...
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: BachQ on May 01, 2008, 11:40:15 AM
Objectively Greatest

Bach
Beethoven
Mozart
Brahms
Haydn/Wagner/Schubert

Favorites to Listen To

Beethoven
Brahms
Bruckner
Mozart
Bach / Mahler

Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: bhodges on May 01, 2008, 11:50:59 AM
Greatest:

Bach
Beethoven
Debussy
Stravinsky
Wagner

Favorites to listen to:

Bartók
Berg
Britten
Bruckner
Mahler

Alas, no overlap!

--Bruce
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: MN Dave on May 01, 2008, 11:53:03 AM
Greatest:

Bach
Mozart
Beethoven
Brahms
Wagner

Now playing:

Bach
Mozart
Beethoven
Brahms
Chopin  ;D
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: BachQ on May 01, 2008, 11:54:48 AM
Quote from: bhodges on May 01, 2008, 11:50:59 AM

Favorites to listen to:

Bartók
Berg
Britten
Bruckner
Mahler


You almost have the "Five B's" .......
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: MN Dave on May 01, 2008, 11:55:19 AM
Quote from: Dm on May 01, 2008, 11:54:48 AM
You almost have the "Five B's" .......

Wrong ones though.

*runs away*
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 01, 2008, 12:05:17 PM

My five favorites to listen to:

Wagner
Mahler
Bruckner
Sibelius
Beethoven

The five I think are greatest:

Wagner
Mahler
Bruckner
Sibelius
Beethoven

Obviously I have trouble with the concept of greater than, lesser than, when it comes to composers. I have no idea how to objectively decide which is greater: Mozart's Don Giovanni or Bruckner's C minor Symphony. What's more, I don't really see any point in trying.

Sarge
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: MN Dave on May 01, 2008, 12:11:24 PM
Well, Lethe and Dm have gotten the "greatest" right so far.  0:)
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: bhodges on May 01, 2008, 12:12:09 PM
Quote from: Dm on May 01, 2008, 11:54:48 AM
You almost have the "Five B's" .......

All right, just for you...(and actually, this list would be fine with me):

Bartók
Berg
Brahms
Britten
Bruckner

;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 01, 2008, 12:17:38 PM
Quote from: MN Brahms on May 01, 2008, 12:11:24 PM
Well, Lethe and Dm have gotten the "greatest" right so far.  0:)

And as for the rest, I know you're Taking Names!  ;D
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Haffner on May 01, 2008, 12:51:23 PM

Objectively Greatest

Wagner
Mozart
Beethoven
Bach
Brahms
Haydn
Mahler
Bruckner
Verdi





Favorites to Listen To
Wagner
Mozart
Beethoven
Bruckner
Mahler
Haydn
Brahms
Verdi



ARRRGH! I hate this! BRAIN CRAMP!!!
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: hornteacher on May 01, 2008, 03:22:36 PM
Objectively Greatest
Beethoven
Mozart
Bach
Brahms
Haydn
Wagner

Personal Favorites to Listen To
Beethoven
Dvorak
Mozart
Mendelssohn
Copland
Hilary Hahn  ;D
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Haffner on May 01, 2008, 03:35:26 PM
Quote from: hornteacher on May 01, 2008, 03:22:36 PM


Personal Favorites to Listen To
Beethoven
Dvorak
Mozart
Mendelssohn
Copland
Hilary Hahn  ;D


;)

Copland is an extremely cool choice as well!
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: MN Dave on May 01, 2008, 03:46:39 PM
5
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Haffner on May 01, 2008, 03:48:06 PM
Quote from: MN Brahms on May 01, 2008, 03:46:39 PM
5



"Numba noyn, Numba Noyn...:
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Monsieur Croche on May 01, 2008, 09:10:21 PM
My Five Greatest (in no particular order):

Bach
Mozart
Beethoven
Brahms
Debussy

My Five Favourites (in no particular order, except for the first one)

Debussy
Ravel
Faure
Schubert
Mozart

Interesting thread. I wonder how much our opinion on "who is the greatest composer" is shaped by general consensus in the musical establishment. For someone who lacks musical training or experience especially, can this greatness be felt and distinguished from mere personal taste by listening alone? Does our mind have an inherent concept of quality?
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Monsieur Croche on May 01, 2008, 09:11:41 PM
Quote from: Dm on May 01, 2008, 11:54:48 AM
You almost have the "Five B's" .......

Babadjanyan, Arno
Babell, William
Babin, Victor
Babou, Thomas
Bacarisse, Salvador

:D
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: eyeresist on May 01, 2008, 11:11:33 PM
The thread title fooled me - I thought I was being asked for my five favourite recordings. Was anyone else confused?


Five Favourite Fomposers

Dvorak
Bruckner
Elgar
Prokofiev

... The first four were easy, but who's 5? Possibly Sibelius, but somehow I feel I don't have the right to include him, as he still remains in some way mysterious to me.


Five Greatest Composers

Beethoven
Beethoven
Beethoven
Beethoven
Beethoven

... Because, whenever I contemplate the greatness of any composer, in the end I always have to say "...but then there's Beethoven."
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Don on May 02, 2008, 05:56:11 AM
Five personal favorites:
Bach
Schumann
Shostakovich
Weinberg
Chopin

Five greatest:
Bach
Shostakovich
Mahler
Schoenberg
Beethoven
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 06:37:55 AM
Six Favorite Composers

Beethoven
Brahms
Schubert
Mozart
Schumann
Bruckner


Five Greatest Composers

Bach
Mozart
Beethoven
Haydn
Wagner
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: MN Dave on May 02, 2008, 06:39:10 AM
5
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 06:40:22 AM
Quote from: MN Brahms on May 02, 2008, 06:39:10 AM
5

Yes, I know Dave.

I cannot limit it to 5 favorites though.  Those are my "Six pack", and I cannot exclude any of those.
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: MN Dave on May 02, 2008, 06:42:20 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 06:40:22 AM
Yes, I know Dave.

I cannot limit it to 5 favorites though.  Those are my "Six pack", and I cannot exclude any of those.

:P
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 06:43:57 AM
Among the "five greatest" cited by so many neighbors, so few were non-German speakers.

I wonder why those of us in other countries even bother composing?
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Norbeone on May 02, 2008, 06:44:55 AM
'Greatest':

Bach
Beethoven
Stravinsky
Schoenberg
Debussy


Favourites:  (not definitively, except for Bach)

Bach
Bartok
Stravinsky
Webern
Tchaikovsky
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Norbeone on May 02, 2008, 06:48:18 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 06:43:57 AM
Among the "five greatest" cited by so many neighbors, so few were non-German speakers.

I wonder why those of us in other countries even bother composing?

All the rest should take German language lessons, then, I suppose, perhaps, maybe.


;)
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 06:54:20 AM
Quote from: MN Brahms on May 02, 2008, 06:42:20 AM
:P

>:D   $:)
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 06:58:01 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 06:43:57 AM
Among the "five greatest" cited by so many neighbors, so few were non-German speakers.

I wonder why those of us in other countries even bother composing?

Five Greatest Non-German Speaking Composers

DeBussy
Dvorak
Stravinsky
Bartok
Elgar
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 06:59:56 AM
Ah, and now we've got the non-German-speaking-composers ghetto  8)
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: MN Dave on May 02, 2008, 07:01:07 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 06:59:56 AM
Ah, and now we've got the non-German-speaking-composers ghetto  8)

After the Germans, I'd go with the Russians...probably. Maybe the French.
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: not edward on May 02, 2008, 07:02:17 AM
Five favourites:

Beethoven
Brahms
Prokofiev
Stravinsky
Mahler

Five greatest:

Bach
Beethoven
Sibelius
Bartok
Stravinsky

Better? ;)
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: bwv 1080 on May 02, 2008, 07:05:33 AM
"Greatest"

Josquin
Bach
Mozart
Beethoven
Carter

Favorite at the moment

Bach
Schumann
Bartok
Carter
Dutilleux
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: jwinter on May 02, 2008, 07:20:09 AM
Five favorites:

Beethoven
Bruckner
Mozart
Brahms
Mahler

Five greatest:

Beethoven
Bach
Mozart
Brahms
Haydn

Sorry, Karl ;D.  I agree that this is an inherently silly (if enjoyable) exercise, but here's my dilemma: when I see "greatest", I think not only in terms of aesthetic quality but also of influence and innovation.  That said, I agree that there are many great Russian, Italian, French, etc. composers; but honestly, if we've only got 5 spots, who's going to knock off Mozart or Bach?  This has been debated so many times that the "greatest" list is largely pre-ordained (ie, if you don't think Beethoven is great, you must be either clueless or some sort of crank).  There's only so much room for individual taste in such a list -- personally, on most days I'd rather listen to Tchaikovsky or Prokofiev than to Haydn (though I enjoy Haydn a great deal), but given Haydn's immense output in so many genres, and the uniformly high quality throughout, how can he be left off a list of the "greatest"?  The man largely invented the classical symphony & string quartet, fer cryin' out loud.

Ah, the things I'll debate to avoid working on a Friday afternoon... 
So, who would win, Superman or Thor? ;D
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 02, 2008, 07:32:05 AM
Quote from: Dm on May 01, 2008, 11:54:48 AM
You almost have the "Five B's" .......

Bartók
Berg
Britten
Bruckner
Bhodges
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: bhodges on May 02, 2008, 07:40:14 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on May 02, 2008, 07:32:05 AM
Bartók
Berg
Britten
Bruckner
Bhodges


Agreed, an interesting coincidence, but trust me, if you heard any of Bhodges' music you'd put Brahms back on the list.  ;D  Or maybe Berio.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: greg on May 02, 2008, 07:45:03 AM
Five Favorites:
Mahler
Prokofiev
Brahms
Penderecki
Schoenberg


Five Greatest:
Mahler
Bach
Stravinsky
Prokofiev
Schoenberg
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 07:58:56 AM
Neighborly apology accepted, jwinter  ;D
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 08:01:09 AM
UK Edition:  Neighbourly apology accepted, jwinter  ;D
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 08:06:38 AM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on May 02, 2008, 07:45:03 AM
Five Favorites:
Mahler
Prokofiev
Brahms
Penderecki
Schoenberg


Five Greatest:
Mahler
Bach
Stravinsky
Prokofiev
Schoenberg

Hmm, looks more like Variations on a list of favorites by GGGGGGREG   ;D
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: greg on May 02, 2008, 08:11:16 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 08:06:38 AM
Hmm, looks more like Variations on a list of favorites by GGGGGGREG   ;D
it does say "five you think are greatest"- so that'd mean, roughly, that you like them + they are historically important/have great skill etc.


Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 08:20:08 AM
In more breadth . . . .

Quote from: jwinter on May 02, 2008, 07:20:09 AM
I agree that this is an inherently silly (if enjoyable) exercise, but here's my dilemma: when I see "greatest", I think not only in terms of aesthetic quality but also of influence and innovation.  That said, I agree that there are many great Russian, Italian, French, etc. composers; but honestly, if we've only got 5 spots, who's going to knock off Mozart or Bach?

That is the dilemma, and the silliness, the statisticisation of culture.  The misprision that we can have a "five greatest" (and we all have fun with it, but I for one admit that I enjoy the discussion generated by the question more than the [impossible] lists).  That there is a "fixed" five, or ten, or twenty; because (as you neatly observe) who's going to bin Mozart? Apart from the juvenilia, I mean  8)

Quote from: jwinterThis has been debated so many times that the "greatest" list is largely pre-ordained (ie, if you don't think Beethoven is great, you must be either clueless or some sort of crank).

Which is why I labor to discourage people from thinking in this narrow, statistical way. Because (as I think you are apt to agree) if you don't think Monteverdi, Berlioz, Dvořák, Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Bartók or Janáček is great, you must be either clueless or some sort of crank, too.  And I half resent being put in a position of seeming to do Beethoven (or Bach, or Mozart) down, by de-Germanifying my list  ;)

(And, while Charles meant only well and fun, I'm not mad about the implicit "they're not the greatest, but I likes 'em" feel of putting The Usual Grizzled Germans in the Five Best slots, and using the Five Favorites as second-class also-rans, either.)

PS/ I enjoyed coining statisticisation; no idea which syllable the accent should fall on, though . . . .
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: bhodges on May 02, 2008, 08:26:59 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 08:20:08 AM
(and we all have fun with it, but I for one admit that I enjoy the discussion generated by the question more than the [impossible] lists). 
...
Because (as I think you are apt to agree) if you don't think Monteverdi, Berlioz, Dvořák, Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Bartók or Janáček is great, you must be either clueless or some sort of crank, too. 
...
PS/ I enjoyed coining statisticisation; no idea which syllable the accent should fall on, though . . . .

Totally agree with the first two statements above. 

And I'd put accent on the first (secondary) and fifth (primary) syllables, if you're polling, although I could see just the second syllable, too.  ;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 08:27:42 AM
So then, there is either a conspiracy or we've all been brainwashed if:

If a list of 5 or 10 "Greatest Composers", either prepared by music "experts", composers, and such are dominated by German speaking composers?   ???
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 08:34:21 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 08:27:42 AM
So then, there is either a conspiracy or we've all been brainwashed if . . . .

I think there's an obvious lack of balance in a situation where, in the posts of the first page of this thread, of the 56 best-composer-slots filled in, only 6 were populated with a non-German-speaking composer.
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 08:37:17 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 08:34:21 AM
I think there's an obvious lack of balance in a situation where, in the posts of the first page of this thread, of the 56 best-composer-slots filled in, only 6 were populated with a non-German-speaking composer.

Ok, so then explain it to me Karl.  How can one come up with an "objective" list of "greatests", if one can even do so?

What criteria would you "accept"?  2 Germans, 1 American, 1 French and 1 Russian?
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 08:38:54 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 08:37:17 AM
Ok, so then explain it to me Karl.  How can one come up with an "objective" list of "greatests", if one can even do so?

What criteria would you "accept"?  2 Germans, 1 American, 1 French and 1 Russian?

You contest the obvious imbalance which I pointed out?
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 08:43:47 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 08:38:54 AM
You contest the obvious imbalance which I pointed out?

What if my list of 5 "Greatest" or say a "musical expert's" list of "Greatest" has no more than 1 particular nationality, but is all from the same era (ie. all from the Romantic Era)?  Ok, I'll try and see if you like this:

Perotin
Purcell
Bach
DeBussy
Copland


Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 08:54:39 AM
Before I reply, did you perhaps not see these remarks of mine? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,7422.msg177409.html#msg177409)
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 08:57:16 AM
Your responses, ChamberNut, have the appearance (which you perhaps do not intend) of reacting to one point, and disregarding the larger discussion.  You will note that I have forborne entirely to offer a 'five greatest' list.  I think that, if my earlier remarks mean anything to you, you will understand that it is pointless to ask my approval of any list of five.

I just don't endorse that.
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Haffner on May 02, 2008, 09:01:56 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 08:20:08 AM
In more breadth . . . .

That is the dilemma, and the silliness, the statisticisation of culture.  The misprision that we can have a "five greatest" (and we all have fun with it, but I for one admit that I enjoy the discussion generated by the question more than the [impossible] lists).  That there is a "fixed" five, or ten, or twenty; because (as you neatly observe) who's going to bin Mozart? Apart from the juvenilia, I mean  8)

Which is why I labor to discourage people from thinking in this narrow, statistical way. Because (as I think you are apt to agree) if you don't think Monteverdi, Berlioz, Dvořák, Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Bartók or Janáček is great, you must be either clueless or some sort of crank, too.  And I half resent being put in a position of seeming to do Beethoven (or Bach, or Mozart) down, by de-Germanifying my list  ;)

(And, while Charles meant only well and fun, I'm not mad about the implicit "they're not the greatest, but I likes 'em" feel of putting The Usual Grizzled Germans in the Five Best slots, and using the Five Favorites as second-class also-rans, either.)

PS/ I enjoyed coining statisticisation; no idea which syllable the accent should fall on, though . . . .



You have an excellent point, Karl. I just got my Tchaikovsky/Karajan Symphony cd and I now regret the lack of Tchaikovsky in the polls in particular.
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 09:21:12 AM
Well, and I misspoke, Andy, in echoing too inconsiderately jwinter's remark viz. Beethoven.

We all necessarily have starting points, and are all on a pathway of discovering the riches of the literature. I should not say that "if you don't think Monteverdi, Berlioz, Dvořák, Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Bartók or Janáček is great, you must be either clueless or some sort of crank";  for the fact is that the newbie starts somewhere, and may not have any exposure, early on, to Monteverdi, Bartók or Janáček (e.g.).  It is not beautiful to suggest that someone who hasn't yet made his way there, is 'clueless'.

Still, in a perfectly neutral sense, there is ignorance, the lack of knowledge.  Take a newbie who readily signs on to the "the five greatest composers are Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms and Wagner" primer.  There's a lot of music just there, that one can be occupied for years getting to know music, and most of it's great.  Mention to this newbie the names Stravinsky, Shostakovich or Bartók.  (a) The newb has not perhaps had the time or opportunity to 'get there', (b) one of the newb's 'anchors' in this bewlidering task of getting to know the classical literature, is this short list of great composers, which in turn guides a working definition of 'great music', to match which those composers who do musically else are going to fail, in some degree.  It is no great distance to (c) the newb feels a proprietary interest in that list of five, and views other contenders for the title "Great Composer" with something like suspicion.

I just think it more helpful, earlier on, to call them "five great composers' rather than "The Five Greatest Composers of All Time."
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: BachQ on May 02, 2008, 09:43:05 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 08:34:21 AM
I think there's an obvious lack of balance in a situation where, in the posts of the first page of this thread, of the 56 best-composer-slots filled in, only 6 were populated with a non-German-speaking composer.

Speaking only for myself, a composer's nationality is UTTERLY irrelevant in my decisionmaking.  Of the multitude of factors I consider and weigh, nationality / culture / race is 100.00% unimportant.
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 09:43:10 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 09:21:12 AM
I just think it more helpful, earlier on, to call them "five great composers' rather than "The Five Greatest Composers of All Time."

I agree with this Karl.   :)



Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 09:45:29 AM
Quote from: Dm on May 02, 2008, 09:43:05 AM
Speaking only for myself, a composer's nationality is UTTERLY irrelevant in my decisionmaking.  Of the multitude of factors I consider and weigh, nationality / culture / race is 100.00% unimportant.

Fine.  But there is a difference between factors which you consciously bring to the table, today, and factors which have directly or indirectly informed your path to this point.
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Mark G. Simon on May 02, 2008, 09:47:13 AM
Among the top echelons of the great, it's meaningless to debate which composer is the greater. There are certainly more than five names in the top echelon, but the five names that jump immediately to my mind are all German-speaking ones:

Bach
Beethoven
Haydn
Mozart
Brahms


Germans do seem to dominate 18th-19th century composition. For 20th century music, Russians have a strong showing:

Stravinsky
Schoenberg
Bartok
Shostakovich
Prokofiev
.

That's my list, in any case. (Notice this thread is asking us to name "the five you think are the greatest", not the five who are objectively the greatest).

My personal favorites among composers are Haydn and Stravinsky, but I could easily add any of the names I've given as the greatest to fill out my list of favorites and then throw in a dozen or so other names such as Tchaikovsky, Mendelssohn, Handel, Bruckner, Mahler, Dvorak, Sibelius etc etc etc.
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 09:47:50 AM
Quote from: Dm on May 02, 2008, 09:43:05 AM
Of the multitude of factors I consider and weigh, nationality / culture / race is 100.00% unimportant.

So long as they compose in the key of D Minor . . . .
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 09:50:00 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 09:45:29 AM
Fine.  But there is a difference between factors which you consciously bring to the table, today, and factors which have directly or indirectly informed your path to this point.

So how do (we) change this?  If 95% of the Music History literature and such imply that 8 out of the 10 Greatest are German Composers, how do we change that mindset?
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: MN Dave on May 02, 2008, 09:50:49 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 09:50:00 AM
So how do (we) change this?  If 95% of the Music History literature and such imply that 8 out of the 10 Greatest are German Composers, how do we change that mindset?

We don't.  ;D
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 10:00:39 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 09:50:00 AM
So how do (we) change this?  If 95% of the Music History literature and such imply that 8 out of the 10 Greatest are German Composers, how do we change that mindset?

My approach in part has been, to deny that we have a closed set of ten;  and in part to point out that if 8 of those 10 belong to some self-referential group, then the idea of 'great music' may well in part be front-loaded with presumptions related to the way that those 8 have made music.
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 10:02:02 AM
Quote from: MN Brahms on May 02, 2008, 09:50:49 AM

Quote from: ChamberNutSo how do (we) change this?  If 95% of the Music History literature and such imply that 8 out of the 10 Greatest are German Composers, how do we change that mindset?

We don't.  ;D

Thus, Capt Beefheart's real name is Don van Vliet, which is of Dutch origin;  and the Netherlands is country neighboring Germany . . . .
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: MN Dave on May 02, 2008, 10:05:13 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 10:02:02 AM
We don't.  ;D


Thus, Capt Beefheart's real name is Don van Vliet, which is of Dutch origin;  and the Netherlands is country neighboring Germany . . . .

The circle is completed...or something.  0:)
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 10:07:22 AM
Quote from: MN Brahms on May 02, 2008, 10:05:13 AM
The circle is completed...or something.  0:)

Bulbous, also tapered.
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: BachQ on May 02, 2008, 10:13:28 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 09:45:29 AM
Fine.  But there is a difference between factors which you consciously bring to the table, today, and factors which have directly or indirectly informed your path to this point.

To the extent one can be AWARE OF those factors which historically have subconsciously/indirectly had an influence on that person's preferences, and speaking only for myself, nationality has NEVER played any role whatsoever in my composer hierarchy ........ and frankly I cannot fathom why it would be important to anyone .........

Some things are simply irrelevant per se ........... and nationality is among them ...........
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 10:18:07 AM
Quote from: Dm on May 02, 2008, 10:13:28 AM
To the extent one can be AWARE OF those factors which historically have subconsciously/indirectly had an influence on that person's preferences, and speaking only for myself, nationality has NEVER played any role whatsoever in my composer hierarchy ........ and frankly I cannot fathom why it would be important to anyone .........

Some things are simply irrelevant per se ........... and nationality is among them ...........

Right.

Which is why I sought to explain my own thoughts, rather than take up what was the essentially misdirected invitation to state "acceptable ethnic quotas" for the "top 5" berths.

Your sensible concerns here, BTW, are not on a direct axis with one of my earlier statements, that when the five greatest composers are all from the same narrow postage stamp of ground, and yet many other countries have flourishing and rich musical traditions, there is an obvious imbalance.
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: MN Dave on May 02, 2008, 10:29:31 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 10:18:07 AM
Your sensible concerns here, BTW, are not on a direct axis with one of my earlier statements, that when the five greatest composers are all from the same narrow postage stamp of ground, and yet many other countries have flourishing and rich musical traditions, there is an obvious imbalance.

It is not a postage stamp. It is an OCEAN!  0:)
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Haffner on May 02, 2008, 10:29:37 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 09:21:12 AM


I just think it more helpful, earlier on, to call them "five great composers' rather than "The Five Greatest Composers of All Time."




This is a virtuous idea.

Now that you mention it, I've been putting off Bartok forever, it's high time I got a grip and checked out those String Quartets.
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Haffner on May 02, 2008, 10:33:31 AM
I must admit, though I'm a mutt my listening is overwhelmingly Teutonic. But I'm being properly initiated into Tchaikovsky, Martinu, and Dvorak, so there's hope yet.

maybe (laughing)
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: BachQ on May 02, 2008, 10:37:30 AM
Quote from: AndyD. on May 02, 2008, 10:33:31 AM
But I'm being properly initiated into Tchaikovsky, Martinu, and Dvorak, so there's hope yet.

Nationality is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Haffner on May 02, 2008, 10:40:19 AM
Quote from: Dm on May 02, 2008, 10:37:30 AM
Nationality is irrelevant.


Works in d minor are internationally understood.
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: MN Dave on May 02, 2008, 10:40:33 AM
Quote from: Dm on May 02, 2008, 10:37:30 AM
Nationality is irrelevant.

Germany was a hotbed of irrelevance.
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 10:42:54 AM
Quote from: Dm on May 02, 2008, 10:37:30 AM
Nationality is irrelevant.

You mean, they could be German or Austrian?  ;D
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: MN Dave on May 02, 2008, 10:44:31 AM
You don't have to be German to be a great composer, but it couldn't hurt!  8)
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: BachQ on May 02, 2008, 10:44:56 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 10:42:54 AM
You mean, they could be German or Austrian?  ;D

:D  [Coffee spewed on keyboard .........]
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: not edward on May 02, 2008, 10:55:29 AM
Apparently the top 5 is Clash of the Teutons.
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: MN Dave on May 02, 2008, 10:59:20 AM
Quote from: edward on May 02, 2008, 10:55:29 AM
Apparently the top 5 is Clash of the Teutons.

Yes, or The Grand Teutons.
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 11:13:46 AM
Teuton Comin'! (Compose Like an Egyptian)
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: not edward on May 02, 2008, 11:14:13 AM
Teuton your own horn, perhaps?
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 11:18:32 AM
Yer Darned Teuton
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 11:26:11 AM
Teu days later after eating a healthy amount of Indian food, I'm still teutin'.

:D
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 11:27:21 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 10:42:54 AM
You mean, they could be German or Austrian?  ;D

Oh well......that just changes everything then!  0:)

I can put Mozart AND Beethoven on the same list, and not feel guilty now.  ;D
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 11:35:25 AM
I'm a Nationalist.  I'm changing my picks (To English speaking North American composers):

Copland
Adams
Crumb
Cage
Ives

Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: MN Dave on May 02, 2008, 11:36:26 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 11:35:25 AM
I'm a Nationalist.  I'm changing my picks (To English speaking North American composers):

Copland
Adams
Crumb
Cage
Ives



Now you've gone and done it.
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 11:49:36 AM
Dm is going to pillory you!  ;D
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 11:50:04 AM
He may even possibly increase your font-size!  ;)
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: MN Dave on May 02, 2008, 11:52:00 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 11:50:04 AM
He may even possibly increase your font-size!  ;)

SAY IT AIN'T SO...................!!!
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 02, 2008, 11:57:47 AM
Quote from: edward on May 02, 2008, 10:55:29 AM
Apparently the top 5 is Clash of the Teutons.

Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2008, 11:13:46 AM
Teuton Comin'! (Compose Like an Egyptian)

;D ;D
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: marvinbrown on May 02, 2008, 12:23:33 PM

  Let me see if I can put a twist in this thread by stating the following:

Greatest (for an opera fan): ;)

  Wagner
  Verdi
  Mozart
  Puccini
  Richard Strauss

  Favorites to listen to (for an opera fan):

  Wagner
  Verdi
  Mozart
  Puccini
  Richard Strauss/ Janacek
  Bellini/ Bizet/ Leoncavallo/ Mascagni (an every "one hit" couple of hits wonder there is out there!)

  marvin
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Lethevich on May 02, 2008, 02:02:56 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 11:35:25 AM
I'm a Nationalist.  I'm changing my picks (To English speaking North American composers):

Copland
Adams
Crumb
Cage
Ives

An intolerable bias towards the letter C!
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Chaszz on May 03, 2008, 08:10:05 AM
Quote from: James on May 03, 2008, 08:06:44 AM

...for non-classical
duke ellington-charlie parker
thelonious monk-john coltrane
miles davis-frank zappa

Respectfully suggest you open your ears to the Armstrong Hot Fives and Hot Sevens of 1925-28.
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Bonehelm on May 03, 2008, 07:49:06 PM
Favourites:

HOLY TRINITY: Mahler, Bruckner, Wagner
Beethoven
Chopin

Greatest:
HOLY TRINITY: Mahler, Bruckner Wagner
Beethoven
Bach
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Wanderer on May 03, 2008, 11:05:28 PM
My favourites for today would be:

Beethoven
Ives
Tchaikovsky
Elgar
Mahler
Enescu
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: quintett op.57 on May 04, 2008, 03:14:43 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 02, 2008, 08:27:42 AM
So then, there is either a conspiracy or we've all been brainwashed if:

If a list of 5 or 10 "Greatest Composers", either prepared by music "experts", composers, and such are dominated by German speaking composers?   ???
conspiracy? not really but ...
The first musicologist (XIXth century) were all germans or austrians and were given the task to glorify the german nation. Obviously, there writings greatly influence our musical knowledge.
Nevertheless, it also allowed german music to be really more influential than it would have been without.

The enormous impact of italian music is sometimes (often?) denied, especially during the baroque era but a Paganini is not to be forgotten (I'm not saying his music is perfect)
Regarding Eastern Europe & Russia, we're quite ignorant (Mr Henning would acquiesce)

PS : I'm not an anti-german at all - my fav 5 include Haydn, Beethoven, Bruckner & Strauss.
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Ten thumbs on May 04, 2008, 06:05:14 AM
To return to the subject with a little extra 

  A selection from the Greatest

  Purcell
  Mozart
  Beethoven
  Prokofiev
  Shostakovich

  Favorites for listening

  Bach
  Schubert
  Tchaikovski
  Debussy
  Mel Bonis
 
  Favorites for playing (piano)

  Beethoven
  Schubert
  Chopin
  Fanny Hensel
  Medtner
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: MN Dave on May 04, 2008, 06:07:04 AM
Quote from: Ten thumbs on May 04, 2008, 06:05:14 AM
To return to the subject with a little extra 

  A selection from the Greatest

  Purcell
 

0:)
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: Haffner on May 04, 2008, 03:10:09 PM
Quote from: Wotan on May 03, 2008, 07:49:06 PM
Favourites:

HOLY TRINITY: Mahler, Bruckner, Wagner
Beethoven
Chopin

Greatest:
HOLY TRINITY: Mahler, Bruckner Wagner
Beethoven
Bach


Naturally, I love those favorite you have. But I have trouble leaving Mozart, Verdi, and J. Haydn out. That's just me. 5 was impossible.
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: eyeresist on May 04, 2008, 08:35:41 PM
Quote from: edward on May 02, 2008, 10:55:29 AM
Apparently the top 5 is Clash of the Teutons.
LOL!!!


Karl, why do you hate Germans so?


Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: eyeresist on May 04, 2008, 08:50:25 PM
Quote from: James on May 03, 2008, 08:06:44 AM
for non-classical
duke ellington-charlie parker
thelonious monk-john coltrane
miles davis-frank zappa

Do you know Benny Goodman's small-group stuff? Would definitely fit in there (I hope).

BTW, I hope everyone is aware that Goodman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Goodman) commissioned work from Bartok, Malcolm Arnold, and Copland. (Woody Herman commissioned Bernstein and Stravinsky.)

Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: eyeresist on May 05, 2008, 01:06:48 AM
Yeah, I know he wasn't a composer or great innovator. Just askin' is all....
Title: Re: Your own five favorites to listen to, versus the five you think are greatest
Post by: LVB_opus.125 on May 08, 2008, 05:26:30 PM
Favorites, as of right now, anyway (Bach never was in my favorites, until the informed opinions at GMG helped me make some purchases and I've been hooked ever since).

According to my last.fm listening guide, these are my favorite five, as per most played:

Bach - 2486
Beethoven - 670
Mozart - 421
Haydn - 397
Schubert - 355

This neglects to mention that most played doesn't necessarily translate to "favorite." For instance, I currently LOVE listening to Richard Strauss and I'd perhaps prefer Brahms and Schumann over Schubert and Mozart. And I'm never quite sure how I listen to Haydn so much, as I have only really been affected deeply by his vocal works, and string quartets. I guess they add up. I have this idea that over listening to what I consider to be "GREAT!!" works, such as Beethoven's 9th, somewhat diminshes their power over time, so I take care to listen to works that are that powerful and affecting only when I wish to wear my heart on my sleeve.

Now whose greatest? I'm not going down that road, but Bach/Beethoven/Mozart must figure in. The other two may vary.