GMG Classical Music Forum

Let me know if you need more info on the recordings. Thanks!

I only voted for Haitink because I couldn't see the poll results unless I voted.  :-[

Maybe this thread belongs on the Opera board.  ???

That's quite an eclectic list!

Which Furtwängler Rheingold is this? I've heard both his La Scala and RAI. The RAI is in better sound.

The Krauss has some fans but I'm one of those who can't stomach the disastrous orchestral perspective. Much too distant to adequately support the voices, which themselves are fairly well recorded.

One thing I would caution you on is the origins of these recordings. All but two - EMI and Etcetera - are pirates, which means (by definition) substandard sound, questionable pitches, poor presentation, and almost no annotation. And forget about a libretto (if you want one ;D). (I'm going under the assumption that Etcetera is the label I'm thinking of: the Dutch independent).

I do know that Haitink's Ring (or his Siegfried, at least) is pretty good as long as you avoid anything with Marton, as her Brünnhilde is so wobble-filled it completely wrecks everything. But Rheingold is Brünnhilde-free and the rest of the singers are respectable enough, so Haitink's Rheingold might make a good bargain.

Quote from: donwyn on May 17, 2008, 05:09:16 PM
That's quite an eclectic list!

Which Furtwängler Rheingold is this? I've heard both his La Scala and RAI. The RAI is in better sound.

The Krauss has some fans but I'm one of those who can't stomach the disastrous orchestral perspective. Much too distant to adequately support the voices, which themselves are fairly well recorded.

One thing I would caution you on is the origins of these recordings. All but two - EMI and Etcetera - are pirates (though maybe not Gebhardt), which means (by definition) substandard sound, questionable pitches, poor presentation, and almost no annotation. And forget about a libretto (if you want one ;D). (I'm going under the assumption that Etcetera is the label I'm thinking of: the Dutch independent).

I do know that Haitink's Ring (or his Siegfried, at least) is pretty good as long as you avoid anything with Marton, as her Brünnhilde is so wobble-filled it completely wrecks everything. But Rheingold is Brünnhilde-free and the rest of the singers are respectable enough, so Haitink's Rheingold might make a good bargain.

Ah, thanks, Don! All that information certainly helps.

The Furtwangler is La Scala.

Quote from: MN Dave on May 17, 2008, 06:04:02 PM

The Furtwangler is La Scala.

One thing about this La Scala Ring, for some reason, it's never really gotten a first-rate transfer job by any of the truly professional historical labels. The closest it's come is on Music & Arts, which is a very good historical label in its own right but doesn't always have access to direct sources for its transfers. As a result, M&A will sometimes lag behind some of the premier historical labels when it comes to sound. But M&A definitely has its niche as quite often it's the only place to find valuable historic material.

So if you can find a Music & Arts copy of this La Scala Ring (long OOP) that's probably your best bet as far as sound (though I believe it's available only as a set). Otherwise one pirate label is probably as good as another in this particular instance.

Thanks again, Don. Much appreciated!

Quote from: MN Dave on May 17, 2008, 08:12:29 PM
Thanks again, Don. Much appreciated!

Pleasure, Dave!

I went with the Furtwangler for now. Now to find a libretto.

If it's still in print, you can get the libretto for the entire Der Ring des Nibelungen from Piper-Schott. Maybe Powell's has it. Of course if you want an English translation of Wagner's text, then you have to look somewhere else; the Schott is in the original German.  ;)

Quote from: uffeviking on May 18, 2008, 03:58:57 PM
If it's still in print, you can get the libretto for the entire Der Ring des Nibelungen from Piper-Schott. Maybe Powell's has it. Of course if you want an English translation of Wagner's text, then you have to look somewhere else; the Schott is in the original German.  ;)

Thanks. Yes, I need it in English. There's one online I can use.

None.

Quote from: op.110 on May 19, 2008, 08:53:53 PM
None.

  I agree!  I was never a big fan of historical recordings of the Ring. I used to own the Furtwangler RAI but have since sold it.  I found the poor sound quality and even worst brass section quite annoying- it took away a lot of the pleasure of listening to Wagner's epic masterpeice.  Your best bet is to invest in the Solti Ring- mindblowing!

  marvin

Quote from: marvinbrown on May 20, 2008, 12:58:11 AM
  I agree!  I was never a big fan of historical recordings of the Ring. I used to own the Furtwangler RAI but have since sold it.  I found the poor sound quality and even worst brass section quite annoying- it took away a lot of the pleasure of listening to Wagner's epic masterpeice.  Your best bet is to invest in the Solti Ring- mindblowing!

  marvin

Yes, I may get that one day.

Quote from: MN Dave on May 20, 2008, 09:49:11 AM
Yes, I may get that one day.

What an odd list. You have a penchant for pirated recordings? Everyone except Haitink is a pirate which means terrible sound. Haitink isn't great either but at least he more or less presents the music in a straightforward manner although there is nothing remotely exciting about his recording. I would say it is by default the best of the ones you listed because the rest is so sonically terrible.

But all in almost anything in stereo out there is preferable.

Quote from: MN Dave on May 20, 2008, 09:49:11 AM
Yes, I may get that one day.

   I agree with PerfectWagnerite that a stereo recording of the Ring is the way to go.  If you find the Solti Ring too expensive there are so many other studio recordings that you could go for. Sarge and PerfectWagnerite  can direct you to the best affordable ones to get as they have so many Ring Cycles!  Unfortunately I have only heard Solti and Levine.  I am not sure how familiar you are with Wagner's epic masterpiece but it runs well over 14 hours between all 4 operas.  I would seriously advise you to get a recording with excellent sound to truly appreciate the greatness of this work.  Also it is pointless to just buy Das Rheingold, that's like reading the first few chapters of a really great novel.  The Ring is supposed to be experienced as a whole integral peice.

  Best of luck in your hunt!
  marvin     

The recordings in the poll are what's available in iTunes Plus format. I don't buy anything in regular iTunes format...anymore.

I have to buy the whole Ring? Ugh. What if I don't like it? Oh, well. I'll figure it out...

Quote from: MN Dave on May 20, 2008, 03:21:23 PM
The recordings in the poll are what's available in iTunes Plus format. I don't buy anything in regular iTunes format...anymore.

I have to buy the whole Ring? Ugh. What if I don't like it? Oh, well. I'll figure it out...

  Oh well then in that case you'd better sample and see if you like what you hear!

  marvin

Quote from: marvinbrown on May 20, 2008, 03:23:07 PM
  Oh well then in that case you'd better sample and see if you like what you hear!

  marvin

I certainly enjoy the bleeding chunks.  ;D

Quote from: marvinbrown on May 20, 2008, 12:58:11 AM
I was never a big fan of historical recordings of the Ring.............................
........................Your best bet is to invest in the Solti Ring- mindblowing!

  marvin

The Solti Rheingold was recorded 50 years ago; it is a historical recording!

If you are strapped for cash you might consider the Neuhold set which you can find on ebay from time to time for about $10-$15, for the whole Ring Cycle (yeah that's right) which has good sound and a pretty good performance. No it is not Solti or Levine but it will do.

I do think for Rheingold Solti is the way to go. I am not in love with his conducting but the recording is fabulous. Yes it is at times gimmicky (like the stupid trick with the Ring dropping on the pile of gold), but at it's best like transition to Nibelheim where there are 18 anvils of various sizes playing Solti can't be beat. You literally hear the anvils hammer away, building up to an unbearable fff, then die away. No recording even comes close to this respect.

Also you pretty much need stereo to hear Rheingold or any part of the Ring correctly. There is just so much detail in the score (like the 6 offstage harps in the Entrance of the Gods into Valhalla) that no mono recording can capture vividly.

Others I can recommend include Sawallisch, Levine, and Karajan (Rheingold is probably the best of Karajan's set). Levine you can find Rheingold separately from time to time on ebay or Amazon cheaply. Karajan maybe not and Sawallisch as far as I know is only available as a complete set although for only about $50-$60.

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 20, 2008, 03:56:29 PM
If you are strapped for cash you might consider the Neuhold set which you can find on ebay from time to time for about $10-$15, for the whole Ring Cycle (yeah that's right) which has good sound and a pretty good performance. No it is not Solti or Levine but it will do.

I do think for Rheingold Solti is the way to go. I am not in love with his conducting but the recording is fabulous. Yes it is at times gimmicky (like the stupid trick with the Ring dropping on the pile of gold), but at it's best like transition to Nibelheim where there are 18 anvils of various sizes playing Solti can't be beat. You literally hear the anvils hammer away, building up to an unbearable fff, then die away. No recording even comes close to this respect.

Also you pretty much need stereo to hear Rheingold or any part of the Ring correctly. There is just so much detail in the score (like the 6 offstage harps in the Entrance of the Gods into Valhalla) that no mono recording can capture vividly.

Others I can recommend include Sawallisch, Levine, and Karajan (Rheingold is probably the best of Karajan's set). Levine you can find Rheingold separately from time to time on ebay or Amazon cheaply. Karajan maybe not and Sawallisch as far as I know is only available as a complete set although for only about $50-$60.

Hey, thanks for all the info, PF!

There is also this DVD from Salzburg conducted by The Wonder himself:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51U8Ag1njNL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

which is probably how I would go about approaching this opera.

Quote from: bricon on May 20, 2008, 03:54:36 PM
The Solti Rheingold was recorded 50 years ago; it is a historical recording!

Despite that the sound is quite good, the performance isn't, IMO.  Karajan's is very fine, the engineering is iffy in parts. Bohm is the best overall pure audio recording, in my opinion.  But I think the Levine DVD is the best way to get to know the thing.

(BTW, I have the old Karajan "white box" edition of the entire ring on sale on ebay, I've upgraded to the remastered and more compact "originals" edition.)

I agree with head-case that the Levine DVD's are the best way to get into the Ring.  It's a nice weekend project.  To my surprise my family, who cannot stand classical music, stuck with it and watched the entire Levine Ring and enjoyed it.

Quote from: bricon on May 20, 2008, 03:54:36 PM
The Solti Rheingold was recorded 50 years ago; it is a historical recording!

  Technically speaking you have a point.  But that Solti Ring  sure doesn't sound like a historical recording.  When you compare it to Furtwangler's RAI recording you'd think that there are at least 25 years between the two of them.  Yes that Solti Ring cycle is in a league all on its own! 

  The Levine MET DVD Ring is also my first choice if you want to see a staged performance.  While many people slam it for being too traditional, bordering on boring I find it the most accurate account of these 4 operas.  I love the costumes and stage design, even the special effects were thrilling.  That said I think the MET  could have provided a more terrifying dragon (Fafner) in Siegfried!

  marvin

I was teaching my eight-year-old grandson the Ring (We just slid right over incest, in fact didn't even mention it.)  When he saw Fafner, he said he thought he looked like a squid.

Quote from: Anne on May 23, 2008, 09:24:52 PM
I was teaching my eight-year-old grandson the Ring (We just slid right over incest, in fact didn't even mention it.)  When he saw Fafner, he said he thought he looked like a squid.

  Anne I applaud your efforts in teaching your 8 year old grandson the Ring  :).  My parents first took me to the opera when I was 10 years old.  We went to see Carmen and then Don Giovanni.  I enjoyed carmen but I will admit that I fell asleep during the Don Giovanni performance.  Funny how after 25 years it has become one of my favorite Mozart operas.  How is your grandson responding to the Ring?  Is he enjoying the singing and the music?  I would imagine that all the characters especially the dragons and giants would interest a young boy.   

  marvin

You guys were right. That Furtwangler Rheingold sounds like crap.   :-X

Quote from: MN Dave on May 25, 2008, 04:56:21 AM
You guys were right. That Furtwangler Rheingold sounds like crap.   :-X

Yeah, it does. It's the worst-sounding entry in the entire La Scala Ring, which is saying rather a lot.

Quote from: MN Dave on May 25, 2008, 04:56:21 AM
You guys were right. That Furtwangler Rheingold sounds like crap.   :-X

  Please do not let that ruin your impression of Furtwangler's other recordings of  Wagner's operas. Furtwangler's Tristan und Isolde with  Flagstad on EMI's Great Recordings of the Century is arguably one of the best if not  THE BEST recording of that opera on record.

  marvin
   
 
 

Quote from: marvinbrown on May 25, 2008, 05:38:43 AM

  Please do not let that ruin your impression of Furtwangler's other recordings of  Wagner's operas.

I won't.  :)

Quote from: marvinbrown on May 25, 2008, 05:38:43 AM

  Please do not let that ruin your impression of Furtwangler's other recordings of  Wagner's operas. Furtwangler's Tristan und Isolde with  Flagstad on EMI's Great Recordings of the Century is arguably one of the best if not  THE BEST recording of that opera on record.

  marvin

Furtwängler's Tristan is special indeed, but it was eclipsed by Leonard Bernstein's recording, which - quelle surprise - suits the score to a "T."

In any event, Furtwängler only really made two complete Wagner recordings in decent, studio sound: that Tristan and the Vienna Walküre. There is a Götterdämmerung finale with Flagstad that was a studio job, which is really one of two good sources for Flagstad's Brünnhilde along with the 1957 Solti Walküre Act 3, and some other extracts (mostly overtures and preludes). There is, obviously, more than that, but the sound quality ranges from the tolerable (e.g., the Bayreuth Meistersinger) to the execrable (the recording mentioned above). It's variable and unfortunate, since Furtwängler understood Wagner in a way approached by, really, only Hans Knappertsbusch in the 1950s and 1960s.

Quote from: PSmith08 on May 25, 2008, 06:04:55 AM
Furtwängler's Tristan is special indeed, but it was eclipsed by Leonard Bernstein's recording, which - quelle surprise - suits the score to a "T."

  WOW PSmith08 you actually  like Bernstein's account?? I find that Bohm's Tristan at Bayreuth with Nilsson recorded in 1966 to be the only rival to Furtwangler's recording.  That said, Furtwangler had Flagstad as Isolde and to my ears that's as good as it gets.  Its wonderful that there are so many recordings on the market to suit all tastes!

  marvin

Quote from: marvinbrown on May 25, 2008, 06:23:38 AM
WOW PSmith08 you actually  like Bernstein's account??...

Gramophone's Alan Blyth agrees with Smith: "Even more than before, I think this is the most rounded and consistent Tristan since Furtwängler's." I like it too, much more than Furtwängler's but not as much as Kleiber's or Karajan's (Vickers is incomparable). Since I'm not a fan of Nilsson (I prefer a more vulnerable, more feminine voice in this role), I'm not much moved by Böhm's acclaimed version. I'm not dissing your preferences, Marvin; they are solid and can't be faulted. I just happen to prefer other performances.

Sarge
   

Quote from: MN Dave on May 25, 2008, 04:56:21 AM
You guys were right. That Furtwangler Rheingold sounds like crap.   :-X

We told you so! ...well, I didn't  :D You'd made your choice before I saw this thread. Still, the true Wagnerite must own at least one Furtwängler Ring. My choice is Rome RAI because the sound is much better (so fine in its latest incarnations that Alan Blyth suggests it could be a first choice), the balance between singers and orchestra more consistent and the audience as quiet as church mice. And too, there were cuts made in the La Scala performance and that rules it out for me. Pace Marvin, the occasional brass flubs don't bother me...not when the overall conception and execution is so fine.

But Dave, you really should hear Haitink's Rheingold (of the choices you gave us).

Sarge

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2008, 07:46:56 AM
Gramophone's Alan Blyth agrees with Smith: "Even more than before, I think this is the most rounded and consistent Tristan since Furtwängler's." I like it too, much more than Furtwängler's but not as much as Kleiber's or Karajan's (Vickers is incomparable). Since I'm not a fan of Nilsson (I prefer a more vulnerable, more feminine voice in this role), I'm not much moved by Böhm's acclaimed version. I'm not dissing your preferences, Marvin; they are solid and can't be faulted. I just happen to prefer other performances.

Sarge
   

  A difference of opinion is always welcome Sarge  :).  If all of us had similar tastes it would be a very boring world now wouldn't it?

  marvin

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2008, 08:01:07 AM

But Dave, you really should hear Haitink's Rheingold (of the choices you gave us).

Sarge

At least it will sound decent.

Quote from: marvinbrown on May 25, 2008, 08:06:11 AM
  A difference of opinion is always welcome Sarge  :).  If all of us had similar tastes it would be a very boring world now wouldn't it?

  marvin

Indeed...and we'd have no use for internet forums...and then what would we do with our time?  ;D

Sarge

Quote from: MN Dave on May 25, 2008, 08:06:27 AM
At least it will sound decent.

Dave, take it from this Wagner Neophyte.....try the Solti Rheingold!  :)

Quote from: ChamberNut on May 25, 2008, 08:40:39 AM
Dave, take it from this Wagner Neophyte.....try the Solti Rheingold!  :)

Well, take it from this Wagner veteran, he's better off avoiding Solti. ;)

I can well imagine the pure visceral thrill of Solti attracting many a Wagner fan. But the effect wears off after time and all that's left is Solti's trademark adrenalin. Where's the nuance? The subtle turns of phrase? The whispery modulations & transitions? Etc...

No, for me, Solti isn't a first choice in Rheingold.

Testament are going to issue a Ring by Kempe. There are studio excerpts of Rheingold on EMI and if they are anything to go by, then the full live performances will be worth the wait. The EMI recording shows a lyrical flow and a pace that feels exactly right, there is the ability to build a climax; he is my sort of Wagner conductor.

Mike

Quote from: marvinbrown on May 25, 2008, 02:21:27 AM
  Anne I applaud your efforts in teaching your 8 year old grandson the Ring  :).  My parents first took me to the opera when I was 10 years old.  We went to see Carmen and then Don Giovanni.  I enjoyed carmen but I will admit that I fell asleep during the Don Giovanni performance.  Funny how after 25 years it has become one of my favorite Mozart operas.  How is your grandson responding to the Ring?  Is he enjoying the singing and the music?  I would imagine that all the characters especially the dragons and giants would interest a young boy.   

  marvin

It was no problem teaching him the Ring.  I read on a different BB than this one someone else had taught his son/grandson the Ring.

We first watched the Levine/Met DVD of Das Rheingold.  We would watch a short piece and then I would stop the DVD and explain what we had seen.  Next I would explain what was coming next in the DVD and then we would watch.  I also explained the motifs (just a few).  You know already how well an 8-yr-old boy would respond to the giants' motif.  It almost ended our study as he loved stomping around.  Like I had said before, we just slid right over any incest discussions and never even mentioned it.  There was so much other info that he needed to understand that he never asked.  I was counting on that and was glad he never asked.

He liked the idea of Alberich enslaving Mime. In fact he was planning to enslave his younger brother with great zeal.  It was summertime and the windows were open.  I was sure that our house was the only one with Alberich and Mime playing in the trees.

He loved Siegfried making his new sword and planned to do the same thing with the appropriate loud banging.  He also liked the Walkuries.  I explained what was happening with Brunhilde and why she was fearful of Wotan's anger.  We really jazzed it up when from a distance there was a sighting of Wotan arriving angry.  He was so much fun to work with because he caught on quickly and retained every thing.

It was about at this point that we had to stop because his mother was moving downstate where schools were available to learn law.

I never told him he was supposed to be fearful of this opera; nor did I tell him this was work from the great Wagner.  Since no one told him to be afraid, he wasn't.

My other grandson had ADHD and was 4 years old.  As you may know, young ADHD children are quite restless and have an extremely short attention span.  One day I taught him to love Hansel und Gretel.  Because he was younger, I'd quite frequently stop the DVD and explain what was coming.  Our witch was not very scary and we did not talk about her eating children.  Being 4 yrs old, he was at one of the usual times that children are prone to nightmares.  That little boy was glued to that TV and he loved the story.  We took the time to pause the opera and actually sing the "Brother, come and dance with me," and then dance as H and G did.  We used the Solti DVD.  He was spellbound all the way to the end of the opera.

The next day he asked if we could play the opera again.  I put it on and did not explain anything this time wanting to know how much he retained from the day before.  I only one other time saw him intently focused on the TV.  From the time that opera started, he never moved a muscle.  The only other time he was watching the movie Babe.

Sorry I got off on a tangent.

Ps.  He thinks the Met dragon looks like a squid.

Quote from: Anne on May 25, 2008, 10:43:28 AM

It was no problem teaching him the Ring.  I read on a different BB than this one someone else had taught his son/grandson the Ring.

We first watched the Levine/Met DVD of Das Rheingold.  We would watch a short piece and then I would stop the DVD and explain what we had seen.  Next I would explain what was coming next in the DVD and then we would watch.  I also explained the motifs (just a few).  You know already how well an 8-yr-old boy would respond to the giants' motif.  It almost ended our study as he loved stomping around.  Like I had said before, we just slid right over any incest discussions and never even mentioned it.  There was so much other info that he needed to understand that he never asked.  I was counting on that and was glad he never asked.

He liked the idea of Alberich enslaving Mime. In fact he was planning to enslave his younger brother with great zeal.  It was summertime and the windows were open.  I was sure that our house was the only one with Alberich and Mime playing in the trees.

He loved Siegfried making his new sword and planned to do the same thing with the appropriate loud banging.  He also liked the Walkuries.  I explained what was happening with Brunhilde and why she was fearful of Wotan's anger.  We really jazzed it up when from a distance there was a sighting of Wotan arriving angry.  He was so much fun to work with because he caught on quickly and retained every thing.

It was about at this point that we had to stop because his mother was moving downstate where schools were available to learn law.

I never told him he was supposed to be fearful of this opera; nor did I tell him this was work from the great Wagner.  Since no one told him to be afraid, he wasn't.

My other grandson had ADHD and was 4 years old.  As you may know, young ADHD children are quite restless and have an extremely short attention span.  One day I taught him to love Hansel und Gretel.  Because he was younger, I'd quite frequently stop the DVD and explain what was coming.  Our witch was not very scary and we did not talk about her eating children.  Being 4 yrs old, he was at one of the usual times that children are prone to nightmares.  That little boy was glued to that TV and he loved the story.  We took the time to pause the opera and actually sing the "Brother, come and dance with me," and then dance as H and G did.  We used the Solti DVD.  He was spellbound all the way to the end of the opera.

The next day he asked if we could play the opera again.  I put it on and did not explain anything this time wanting to know how much he retained from the day before.  I only one other time saw him intently focused on the TV.  From the time that opera started, he never moved a muscle.  The only other time he was watching the movie Babe.

Sorry I got off on a tangent.

Ps.  He thinks the Met dragon looks like a squid.

  Anne that's a wonderful post!  It is really great that your grandson responded well to the Ring.  It pleases me when today's youth are exposed to great works of art at such an early age and respond well to it.  It is so very important to educate our youth and expose them to the finer things in life- art, music, literature and culture.  They will grow to be the opera and classical music fans of tomorrow.

  PS: You did well to skirt the incest issue and your grandson is 100% right that MET dragon did look like a squid!!   

  marvin

Quote from: Anne on May 25, 2008, 10:43:28 AM
Like I had said before, we just slid right over any incest discussions and never even mentioned it.  There was so much other info that he needed to understand that he never asked.  I was counting on that and was glad he never asked.

You assume the issue was "slid over."  Now he probably things it is normal to have sex with his sister.   >:D

Quote from: head-case on May 25, 2008, 12:17:51 PM
You assume the issue was "slid over."  Now he probably things it is normal to have sex with his sister.   >:D

Thanks, Marv.

Head-case

He did not know that Sieglinde was the sister of Siegmund.  Right at the beginning of Die Walkure, for my own information, I had to stop and figure out who all these people were when I was learning the Ring.  I thought the child would need it too but   0:)  I didn't give him a chance to think about it.   ;D  Hope the spelling is correct on those 2 names.

Quote from: marvinbrown on May 25, 2008, 06:23:38 AM
  WOW PSmith08 you actually  like Bernstein's account?? I find that Bohm's Tristan at Bayreuth with Nilsson recorded in 1966 to be the only rival to Furtwangler's recording.  That said, Furtwangler had Flagstad as Isolde and to my ears that's as good as it gets.  Its wonderful that there are so many recordings on the market to suit all tastes!

  marvin

I do like Bernstein's account rather a lot. Another thread is probably the best place to explain why, but suffice it for the moment to say that Blyth isn't far off the mark. Like I said, the score and the drama of Tristan make it ideally suited for Bernstein. Of course, he did do an Immolation Scene with Eileen Farrell that is impressive, but done about twenty years before the Tristan in question.