What are some contrapuntal themes/motives/fugal sections in any piece of any genre (symphony, quartet, sonata, suite, etc) that amazes you the most and simply struck you in awe, admiring the composer's impeccable skill of combining musical ideas together? Here are some of mine:
Beethoven symphony no.5: scherzo, fugato in the strings starting with basses :D
Bruckner symphony no.5: finale, where a theme gets passed on from one instrument to the next, while strings have a perfectly placed countersubject :o
Mahler symphony no.5: rondo-finale, the part immediately after the outburst of the 2nd movement brass chorale, right to the end of the piece ;D
That was a pure coincidence that all my examples were from a no.5 symphony. What about yours?
Mozart, Symphony No 41, final coda. Thread over. ;D
Any work of J S Bach
Quote from: Brian on May 20, 2008, 09:28:12 PM
Mozart, Symphony No 41, final coda. Thread over. ;D
Thread not over, but I agree it is a very impressive passage. ;)
I will mention an old favorite of mine: the finale to Haydn's 70th symphony.
I was considering creating a similar thread. :) I love listening to fugues and contrapuntal works, and recently I realised that I can identify the use of counterpoint in a few works! (This is from someone with no knowledge of music theory.)
I have to second premont's choice. I have Mendelssohn's Prelude and Fugue, Op.35 No.1, which I like, but I really cannot say if it's "impressive" or not.
Quote from: premont on May 21, 2008, 12:35:53 AM
Any work of J S Bach
The double violin concerto in D minor comes to mind 0:)!
marvin
Quote from: opus67 on May 21, 2008, 02:51:00 AM
I have to second premont's choice. I have Mendelssohn's Prelude and Fugue, Op.35 No.1, which I like, but I really cannot say if it's "impressive" or not.
It's an interesting one: it's one of Mendelssohn's finest Baroque pastiches, by which I mean, he doesn't just copy the stylistic traits of JSB etc., he actually tries to recreate, in a Romanticised way, the whole ethos and atmosphere of Bachian religious counterpoint as he saw it. This doesn't necessariyl mean actually writing real Bachian counterpoint all the way through. So one can almost see the music putting its hands together in prayer, one can hear the cadences of scripture and chorale, the organ breaks out in peals of joy at the end etc. But underneath this impressive and effective surface, and stripping away the textural and expressive underpinnings (booming octaves for the organ pedals etc. etc.) the counterpoint itself is quite straightforward and not actually always that strict - as I said, this piece is concerned with the effect rather than the substance, and often, although it sounds like a tortuous, expressive fugal working-out, it is not always truly fugal at all.
And the winner is...
(tension builds)
Prokofiev: Symphony #2, first movement.
(Applause)
Kunst der Fuge. IMO; no contest.
Beethovens Grosser Fuge is an obvious choice as well.
For slighter works; I like Mozart Fugue from the Preludium & Fugue fror string quartet (is it a minor, I donæt have access to references here.
And I still need to warm up to Beethoven's finale to his Op.130. The first time I listened to it, I realised how the audience must have felt during the première, especially after listening to the ever so beautiful 'Cavatina'.
Johannes Ockeghem's Missa Prolationum has several passages in which the voices are in canon at a certain ratio to each other, so the entrances of the different voices are so closely intertwined that it sounds like a cascade of voices. It's difficult to explain it from a layman's point of view. :( Is there anyone here who's studied music and knows this piece that could explain it better?
Carter's 3rd String Quartet
The combination of the three themes midway through the Meistersinger overture deserves a mention.
Rondo Burleske from Mahler 9th symphony is another great contender. Also late Beethoven's fugal writing is wicked, citing Grosse Fuge, last movement of "Hammerklavier" piano sonatas as examples.
Michael Tippett: Fantasia Concertante on a theme of Corelli.
The triple-fugue-over-passacaglia-bass in Ronald Stevenson's Passacaglia on DSCH. (One subject = BACH, another = Dies Irae; passacaglia theme, of course, a triple statement of DSCH)
Quote from: premont on May 21, 2008, 12:35:53 AM
Any work of J S Bach
Any work? How about
Sheep May Safely Graze?
Quote from: Sforzando on May 21, 2008, 05:11:35 AM
The combination of the three themes midway through the Meistersinger overture deserves a mention.
Ooh, that is a truly fantastic moment indeed :)
Quote from: Dm on May 21, 2008, 08:12:41 AM
Any work? How about Sheep May Safely Graze?
OK, almost every work - the AoF being the greatest contender.
BTW, I do not think, Bach would recognize the title "Sheep may safely grace".
Quote from: premont on May 21, 2008, 08:48:58 AM
OK, almost every work - the AoF being the greatest contender.
BTW, I do not think, Bach would recognize the title "Sheep may safely grace" [sic].
No, he would know it as "Schafe können sicher weiden," the soprano aria from Cantata 208.
Quote from: MISHUGINA on May 21, 2008, 05:15:18 AM
Rondo Burleske from Mahler 9th symphony is another great contender.
That's the first thing that came to mind for me. 8)
There are 2 or 3 instances in Mahler 2nd symphony that I think are very pretty.
I have no idea what counterpoint is or how to detect it, so I'm stumped. :P
For example Ricercar a 6 from The Musical Offering.
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 21, 2008, 10:59:52 AM
I have no idea what counterpoint is or how to detect it, so I'm stumped. :P
You know what it is. You hear it in any string quartet. Two or more identifiable musical lines sounding simultaneously = counterpoint. Tell me one of your favorite pieces and I'll point out an example of counterpoint. It is everywhere.
Quote from: Sforzando on May 21, 2008, 12:06:20 PM
You know what it is. You hear it in any string quartet. Two or more identifiable musical lines sounding simultaneously = counterpoint. Tell me one of your favorite pieces and I'll point out an example of counterpoint. It is everywhere.
or:
row, row, row your boat :P
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on May 21, 2008, 12:36:19 PM
or:
row, row, row your boat :P
That's not counterpoint. There is only one melodic line in
Row Row Row.
Quote from: Sforzando on May 21, 2008, 12:06:20 PM
You know what it is. You hear it in any string quartet.
Any quartet? You forget that iconoclastic work of genius by Rod Corkin...
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 21, 2008, 12:47:13 PM
That's not counterpoint. There is only one melodic line in Row Row Row.
Counterpoint.
V1: row row row your boat gently down the stream, merrily merrily merrily life is a $#@$ing nightmare
V2: row row row your boat gently down the stream, merrily merrily merrily
life is a $#@$ing nightmare....
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on May 21, 2008, 02:28:04 PM
Counterpoint.
V1: row row row your boat gently down the stream, merrily merrily merrily life is a $#@$ing nightmare
V2: row row row your boat gently down the stream, merrily merrily merrily
life is a $#@$ing nightmare....
Do I hear "stretto"?
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on May 21, 2008, 02:35:58 PM
It's just a canon......
Would you say that stretto is not involved?
Quote from: Don on May 21, 2008, 02:39:14 PM
Would you say that stretto is not involved?
hmmmmmmm yes sir, i detect a stretto which is really ghetto. 8)
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 21, 2008, 12:47:13 PM
That's not counterpoint. There is only one melodic line in Row Row Row.
Since multiple voices take up the melodic line in succession, there most certainly is counterpoint. What you see (notated) is not what you get.
It's a true piece of row music.
Quote from: lukeottevanger on May 21, 2008, 12:55:07 PM
Any quartet? You forget that iconoclastic work of genius by Rod Corkin...
I dispute the use of the word "quartet" when applied to that quartet.
The triple quodlibet "I Am So Proud" from The Mikado. ;D ;D ;D
Most impressive passage of counterpoint is:
Now audience, I want you to be very quiet while Becky hands me the ballot.....
And it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:
"Im so pretty" 0:)
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on May 21, 2008, 02:35:58 PM
It's just a canon......
"A canon is like a round, only louder." ;D --Victor Borge
Agree about Bruckner 5; but there's also Bruckner 8's end, where the themes from all the movements are played together. I would also add the fugato from the first movement of Shostakovich's Fourth Symphony. And there are some very impressive fugatos in the last movement of Beethoven's Ninth, most particularly the 6/4 section marked
Allegro energico, sempre ben marcato.
Also, I'm just reading through the score for Mahler's Ninth, and I'm impressed anew with his contrapuntal skill; every instrument has something important, nothing is "harmonic filling." 8) And I'm only on the first movement! :o
Could someone tell me what "contrapuntal imitation" means, in simple, layman terms?
QuoteSoon enough, this disorienting Adagio gives way to the first movement's bright, Allegro main matter. The first violin sings out the short-phrased principal theme, which the other instruments soon pick up in contrapuntal imitation.
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=42:26362
Thanks
Quote from: jochanaan on May 21, 2008, 09:32:24 PM
I would also add the fugato from the first movement of Shostakovich's Fourth Symphony.
Yes, that's one of the most effectively placed fugati I know.
I'd also add the closing canon from the second Webern cantata, and the finale of Hartmann's 6th symphony in its entirety: its three fugues create unstoppable momentum.
Quote from: Sforzando on May 21, 2008, 12:06:20 PM
You know what it is. You hear it in any string quartet. Two or more identifiable musical lines sounding simultaneously = counterpoint. Tell me one of your favorite pieces and I'll point out an example of counterpoint. It is everywhere.
OK - how about any Beethoven string quartet? Right now I'm listening to 1 and 2. Thanks Sforzando. :)
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 22, 2008, 05:17:42 AM
OK - how about any Beethoven string quartet? Right now I'm listening to 1 and 2. Thanks Sforzando. :)
If you're listening to them both at the same time you are creating a counterpoint Beethoven didn't envisage...
Anything by Bach.
The Prelude to Wagner's Die Meistersinger
The fugato in the finale of Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra
Quote from: Norbeone on May 22, 2008, 09:55:36 AM
The fugato in the finale of Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra
Bartok is another one whose music is loaded with counterpoint..... especially the String Quartets, man! :o
Quote from: opus67 on May 22, 2008, 03:43:29 AM
Could someone tell me what "contrapuntal imitation" means, in simple, layman terms?
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=42:26362
Thanks
In contrapuntal imitation, one instrument/hand/voice plays a single melodic line, either by itself or against a musical background, and after a time another instrument/hand/voice plays the same melodic line, usually at a different pitch. Canons and fugues are imitative counterpoint. In a canon, the imitation is exact; in a fugue, it may involve modifications of various kinds.
It's also possible for the imitation to be inverted (turned upside-down), retrograded (played backwards), or played in retrograde inversion (both backwards and upside-down). Musicians often also make the imitation faster or slower than the original. And these are only a few of the techniques musicians use to make the counterpoint interesting.
Back to the original topic: Carl Nielsen was another master of orchestral counterpoint. His last three symphonies are full of canons and fugati. 8)
Quote from: jochanaan on May 22, 2008, 02:07:04 PM
Back to the original topic: Carl Nielsen was another master of orchestral counterpoint. His last three symphonies are full of canons and fugati. 8)
Likewise Brian - what is often not realised is that his famously abrupt juxtapositions of orchestral sonority are frequently superimposed upon what is actually a purely linear and steely polyphony which continues right through the switch in instrumentation.
Purcell, btw- his Fantasias contain some extraordinary things.
Quote from: jochanaan on May 22, 2008, 02:07:04 PM
In contrapuntal imitation, one instrument/hand/voice plays a single melodic line, either by itself or against a musical background, and after a time another instrument/hand/voice plays the same melodic line, usually at a different pitch. Canons and fugues are imitative counterpoint. In a canon, the imitation is exact; in a fugue, it may involve modifications of various kinds.
It's also possible for the imitation to be inverted (turned upside-down), retrograded (played backwards), or played in retrograde inversion (both backwards and upside-down). Musicians often also make the imitation faster or slower than the original. And these are only a few of the techniques musicians use to make the counterpoint interesting.
Much appreciated. Thank you. :)
And, yes, back to topic.
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 22, 2008, 05:17:42 AM
OK - how about any Beethoven string quartet? Right now I'm listening to 1 and 2. Thanks Sforzando. :)
Haven't forgotten you - more later.
In addition to the late Beethoven fugues of course already mentioned may I add the fugue for String Quintet Op137, that is just something else too, a brief glimpse of heaven.
On the Baroque side I may I also add the fugue in the overture to Handel's Judas Maccabaeus which is just great, a real tour de force, and you get to hear it all twice!
Quote from: Rod Corkin on May 23, 2008, 06:48:01 AM
In addition to the late Beethoven fugues of course already mentioned may I add the fugue for String Quintet Op137, that is just something else too, a brief glimpse of heaven.
On the Baroque side I may I also add the fugue in the overture to Handel's Judas Maccabaeus which is just great, a real tour de force, and you get to hear it all twice!
Nice to see you branching out beyond your usual two-composer fetish ..........
Have we heard what Saul's favorite Mendelssohn counterpoint passages are? How about 71dB's favorite Elgar passages?
How about Eric's favorite Debussy counterpoint passages?
Quote from: Dm on May 23, 2008, 09:52:45 AM
How about 71dB's favorite Elgar passages?
Fugue from
Severn Suite is one. In general, I adore the way Elgar uses simultanuous sounds. In the context of multidimensional structures they form what I call "super-counterpoint."
The repetition thing in Langgårds Antikrist.
It´s almost a musically piece in it self:
:g - e c d e f - ela - f d e f g - f lg - e c d e f - e la - f d e f g - f:l
l l l l
:e f g a - g a h clf g a h - a h c dlg a h c - h a h clf g a h - a h c d:l
-so far I remember... It´s amazing music!
Quote from: Dm on May 21, 2008, 08:12:41 AM
Any work? How about Sheep May Safely Graze?
Probably an exageration to compare this gorgeous aria with any number of Sebastian Bach's fugues, but actually if you study the music, which I have (I have the Egon Petri piano transcription) it becomes all the more easy to 'hear' the entrances of the themes. Not a fugue or a ricercari, but still polyphonic and with Bach is always seems just so simple and effortless. It is that efortessness that seems to be lacking in many recent so-called polyphonic works.
Quote from: Dm on May 23, 2008, 09:51:38 AM
Nice to see you branching out beyond your usual two-composer fetish ..........
Your father clearly didn't beat you enough as a child.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on May 24, 2008, 12:42:06 AM
Your father clearly didn't beat you enough as a child.
Of course he did not. When Dm´s father was a child, Dm was not yet born.
Nobody mentioned the development section of the Hammerklavier sonata yet!
Or what about some Hindemith?
And Scriabin and Scriabin and Scriabin and Scriabin.
I often wonder, if he deleted a lot of ideas, since everything he wrote, sounds like he have been working the contrasting parts out entirely to fit in a counterpoint, closely related all the way through the part. And I can imagine how difficult that might be, if you start on the contrasting part from an intuitively idea. :o
On the other hand, I have heard, that Scriabin was impulsive as well.
Perhaps I have missed mention of it, but Wagner works in counterpoint a number themes from later in the opera into his overture for Meistersingers. In this case, it provides excitement, a rush of adrenalin.
Mike
Quote from: rappy on May 24, 2008, 03:33:36 AM
Nobody mentioned the development section of the Hammerklavier sonata yet!
Are you talking about the last movement? It definitely qualifies as "impressive counterpoint." :D
how about Prokofiev's 2nd.....
Quote from: 71 dB on May 23, 2008, 11:15:16 AM
Fugue from Severn Suite is one. In general, I adore the way Elgar uses simultanuous sounds. In the context of multidimensional structures they form what I call "super-counterpoint."
Yeah, that's easily in my top 20 Elgar fugues! Gotta love that simultaneous multidimensionality ..........
Quote from: Dm on May 24, 2008, 07:14:23 PM
Yeah, that's easily in my top 20 Elgar fugues! Gotta love that simultaneous multidimensionality ..........
Not to mention the supremal hexagonal mexolinemidianoragtheocal idontcareelgarsux uber nocturnal ejaculational asexual vibrational fields.
Quote from: jochanaan on May 24, 2008, 06:55:22 PM
Are you talking about the last movement? It definitely qualifies as "impressive counterpoint." :D
I think he's referring to the fugato in the development of movement 1.
Exactly. Not that it's just good counterpoint, it also sounds awesome.
But the last movement is also fantastic, of course.
Quote from: knight on May 24, 2008, 06:19:54 AM
Perhaps I have missed mention of it, but Wagner works in counterpoint a number themes from later in the opera into his overture for Meistersingers. In this case, it provides excitement, a rush of adrenalin.
Mike
Pfft...even the moderator can't read threads thoroughly! :P but yes, I had mentioned the great countrapuntal passages in the Meistersinger prelude...great stuff!
;D
Apologies, I must have missed it.
Mike
Quote from: 71 dB on May 23, 2008, 11:15:16 AM
I adore the way Elgar uses simultanuous sounds. In the context of multidimensional structures they form what I call "super-counterpoint."
Maybe I am a bit slow, but your statement is completely beyond me.
Would you mind to elaborate?
Quote from: premont on May 25, 2008, 01:22:56 PM
Maybe I am a bit slow, but your statement is completely beyond me.
Would you mind to elaborate?
OH please....no....that way madness lies,
THE HORROR THE HORRORMike
Quote from: premont on May 25, 2008, 01:22:56 PM
Maybe I am a bit slow, but your statement is completely beyond me.
Would you mind to elaborate?
HINT: the explanation involves multidimensional vibrational fields and orthogonal mental gravity waves.
Quote from: rappy on May 24, 2008, 03:33:36 AM
Or what about some Hindemith?
Hindemith's String Quartet No. 5 is a good example of a work that consistently employs outstanding counterpoint throughout its entire length. Of course, J.S. Bach is still the greatest master of this device, still unsurpassed up to this time. Are there composers who employ counterpoint at a greater level of complexity than Bach? Yes. Composers who do it better? No.
Quote from: 71 dB on May 23, 2008, 11:15:16 AM
Fugue from Severn Suite is one. In general, I adore the way Elgar uses simultanuous sounds. In the context of multidimensional structures they form what I call "super-counterpoint."
??? I don't understand what you're saying. Can you explain?
Quote from: 71 dB on May 23, 2008, 11:15:16 AM
Fugue from Severn Suite is one. In general, I adore the way Elgar uses simultanuous sounds. In the context of multidimensional structures they form what I call "super-counterpoint."
Very interesting. But how is this music more multi-dimensional than, say, that of Bruckner or Holst? ???
I think Milhaud's String Quartet Nos. 14 and 15 deserve mention, if only for sheer ingenuity. (Not that I have heard these works before. Any thoughts on them?)
Quote from: jochanaan on May 26, 2008, 08:43:56 PM
Very interesting. But how is this music more multi-dimensional than, say, that of Bruckner or Holst? ???
I need to know the definition of 'multi-dimensional' as applied in this context first. ???
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on May 27, 2008, 04:49:41 AM
I need to know the definition of 'multi-dimensional' as applied in this context first. ???
Let's let 71 dB define it, since he's the one who introduced it here...?
Quote from: premont on May 25, 2008, 01:22:56 PM
Maybe I am a bit slow, but your statement is completely beyond me.
Would you mind to elaborate?
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on May 25, 2008, 11:42:40 PM
??? I don't understand what you're saying. Can you explain?
Quote from: jochanaan on May 26, 2008, 08:43:56 PM
Very interesting. But how is this music more multi-dimensional than, say, that of Bruckner or Holst? ???
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on May 27, 2008, 04:49:41 AMI need to know the definition of 'multi-dimensional' as applied in this context first. ???
Quote from: jochanaan on May 27, 2008, 06:43:49 AM
Let's let 71 dB define it, since he's the one who introduced it here...?
Quote from: knight on May 25, 2008, 01:24:41 PM
OH please....no....that way madness lies, THE HORROR THE HORROR
Mike
Are you people ready for the HORROR? ;D
Normal counterpoint deals with harmonic dimension of music. In my opinion Elgar's "counterpoint" deals with for example timbral dimension too*. That's another dimension making the music multidimensional. This all is how I experience things and the whole consept of multidimensional counterpoint is my own definition. Feel free to disagree if you want.
____________________________________________
*I strongly feel that in Elgar's music nothing happens without logical effects on other dimensions. Harmonic events affect on timbral things and vice versa.
Yes, its clear now....... ::)
Quote from: 71 dB on May 27, 2008, 07:44:07 AM
Are you people ready for the HORROR? ;D
Normal counterpoint deals with harmonic dimension of music. In my opinion Elgar's "counterpoint" deals with for example timbral dimension too*. That's another dimension making the music multidimensional. This all is how I experience things and the whole consept of multidimensional counterpoint is my own definition. Feel free to disagree if you want.
____________________________________________
*I strongly feel that in Elgar's music nothing happens without logical effects on other dimensions. Harmonic events affect on timbral things and vice versa.
The timbral things...such as fx imitation of the sound collors in the oboe? But doesn´t that count as harmonical dimensions? I always thought the harmony was the study of "multi-dimensionality"
Here we go again. ::) I guess it's been almost a year (wow, have I been here that long already?) since the last 71dB Summer Course. Now the new users can be introduced to a higher dimension of cluelessness (I call it super-cluelessness).
Quote from: Corey on May 27, 2008, 08:35:02 AM
Here we go again. ::) I guess it's been almost a year (wow, have I been here that long already?) since the last 71dB Summer Course. Now the new users can be introduced to a higher dimension of cluelessness (I call it super-cluelessness).
multi-dimensional cluelessness? ;D Sorry, I just had to, 71db. ;)
Quote from: 71 dB on May 27, 2008, 07:44:07 AM
Normal counterpoint deals with harmonic dimension of music. In my opinion Elgar's "counterpoint" deals with for example timbral dimension too*. That's another dimension making the music multidimensional. This all is how I experience things and the whole consept of multidimensional counterpoint is my own definition. Feel free to disagree if you want.
If I understand you correctly, you mean, that the changing colours of sound are taking place in a another dimension than the harmonic progress, making the music multidimensional (two-dimensional), but this is certainly not peculiar to Elgars counterpoint. Do you mean, that Elgar´s counterpoint harbours more dimensions than other composers counterpoint, and if you do, which dimensions are we talking about??
Quote from: 71 dB on May 27, 2008, 07:44:07 AM
Are you people ready for the HORROR? ;D
Bring it on! ;D
Quote from: 71 dB on May 27, 2008, 07:44:07 AM
Normal counterpoint deals with harmonic dimension of music. In my opinion Elgar's "counterpoint" deals with for example timbral dimension too*. That's another dimension making the music multidimensional. This all is how I experience things and the whole consept of multidimensional counterpoint is my own definition. Feel free to disagree if you want.
____________________________________________
*I strongly feel that in Elgar's music nothing happens without logical effects on other dimensions. Harmonic events affect on timbral things and vice versa.
Oh, I don't disagree at all. I only disagree that these effects are peculiar to Elgar. I find that Mahler, for example, is a great master of multitimbral, multidimensional counterpoint; so are Berlioz, Wagner, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartók and Lutosławski, among others.
Quote from: jochanaan on May 27, 2008, 10:14:53 AM
Oh, I don't disagree at all. I only disagree that these effects are peculiar to Elgar.
You and history both disagree with that odd view. Plenty of counterpoint which operates in the "timbral dimension" in both
Monteverdi and
Bach, for instance
I don't know how multidimensional it is, but there's some pretty impressive counterpoint in Elgar, such as the Introduction and Allegro, the 4th movement of Symphony No. 2, and quite a bit of it in Part II of The Dream of Gerontius.
Quote from: drogulus on May 27, 2008, 01:04:58 PM
I don't know how multidimensional it is, but there's some pretty impressive counterpoint in Elgar, such as the Introduction and Allegro, the 4th movement of Symphony No. 2, and quite a bit of it in Part II of The Dream of Gerontius.
Yes. Yes. Those are also in my TOP 20 Elgar counterpoint passages ...........
And make no mistake: they are HIGHLY multidimensional, particularly with respect to the vibrational field energy they generate .........
Quote from: Dm on May 27, 2008, 08:50:26 PM
Yes. Yes. Those are also in my TOP 20 Elgar counterpoint passages ...........
It's almost like we should start an Elgar club 0:)
Quote from: 71 dB on May 27, 2008, 07:44:07 AM
Are you people ready for the HORROR? ;D
Normal counterpoint deals with harmonic dimension of music. In my opinion Elgar's "counterpoint" deals with for example timbral dimension too*. That's another dimension making the music multidimensional. This all is how I experience things and the whole consept of multidimensional counterpoint is my own definition. Feel free to disagree if you want.
____________________________________________
*I strongly feel that in Elgar's music nothing happens without logical effects on other dimensions. Harmonic events affect on timbral things and vice versa.
That's it? Extension of the contrapuntal process to timbral dimensions? Why would anyone find this idea so horrifying? I'm still clueless here. :P
Quote from: Dm on May 27, 2008, 08:50:26 PM
Yes. Yes. Those are also in my TOP 20 Elgar counterpoint passages ...........
Care to provide the full listing,
Dm?
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on May 28, 2008, 01:48:47 AM
That's it? Extension of the contrapuntal process to timbral dimensions? Why would anyone find this idea so horrifying? I'm still clueless here. :P
What 71dB is describing usually goes under the prosaic heading of
orchestration. Nothing new or revelatory there.
Even so, it is interesting how composers seem to create their own logic through the clever combination of timbres. You listen to Sibelius or Debussy and say, "of course that clarinet would merge with the horn's sound, it makes perfect sense," even if there is nothing intrinsically logical about a tone color. Their handling of the timbral materials gives the illusion of inevitability.
Quote from: drogulus on May 27, 2008, 01:04:58 PM
...there's some pretty impressive counterpoint in Elgar, such as the Introduction and Allegro, the 4th movement of Symphony No. 2, and quite a bit of it in Part II of The Dream of Gerontius.
That's right drogulus. Elgar's music is influenced heavily by such composers as Handel and Bach so it's no wonder it's very contrapuntal.
Quote from: Auferstehung on May 28, 2008, 03:58:49 PM
Yet another statement you can't musically prove. Show us a specific example in some scores and maybe we'll start treating you as a worthy poster.
Why shouldn't Elgar be influenced by Bach and Handel? They have been mandatory study material for two centuries.
Quote from: Corey on May 28, 2008, 04:53:21 PM
Why shouldn't Elgar be influenced by Bach and Handel? They have been mandatory study material for two centuries.
And they play Pomp and Circumstance at every graduation. That
proves Elgar makes you increasingly smarter.
Quote from: Corey on May 28, 2008, 04:53:21 PM
Why shouldn't Elgar be influenced by Bach and Handel? They have been mandatory study material for two centuries.
Maybe it's my non-existing musical background but I find much more Händel in Elgar than say Chopin.
Beethoven C sharp minor String Quartet Op. 131 (1st movement)
Quote from: 71 dB on May 28, 2008, 09:51:11 PM
Maybe it's my non-existing musical background but I find much more Händel in Elgar than say Chopin.
Yep, infinitely more. But Brahms was one of the greatest influences on Elgar (he listened to his symphonies very often), and I forget exact details, but Elgar was apparently friends with either Reger or Strauss, if the former, then some Bach-like counterpoint could've been introduced to him from that source.
Quote from: Lethe on May 29, 2008, 05:29:08 AM
But Brahms was one of the greatest influences on Elgar (he listened to his symphonies very often), and I forget exact details, but Elgar was apparently friends with either Reger or Strauss, if the former, then some Bach-like counterpoint could've been introduced to him from that source.
True, there's much Brahms in Elgar. Richard Strauss was Elgar's very good friend and a major promoter of Elgar's music in Germany. To my understanding Elgar's main source of Bach/Händel influences came from reading scores in his father's music shop. Elgar heard a performance of Händel's
Messiah when he was 12. That made him want to play violin and to become a composer.
Quote from: Corey on May 28, 2008, 04:53:21 PM
Why shouldn't Elgar be influenced by Bach and Handel? They have been mandatory study material for two centuries.
I wonder why such dismissive remarks are made concerning Elgar? Are you trying to mirror
71dB's adulation negatively? I don't think such compensation is neccessary. Why does every obsevation concerning Elgar have to exhibit contempt for the composer and a superior attitude to his advocate? We already understand that such hero-worship is excessive, so why not discuss this composer like any other without the attitude?
Quote from: Lethe on May 29, 2008, 05:29:08 AM
Yep, infinitely more. But Brahms was one of the greatest influences on Elgar (he listened to his symphonies very often), and I forget exact details, but Elgar was apparently friends with either Reger or Strauss, if the former, then some Bach-like counterpoint could've been introduced to him from that source.
Elgar's 2nd symphony sounds like it's influenced by the Brahms 3rd.
Quote from: drogulus on May 29, 2008, 04:39:07 PM
I wonder why such dismissive remarks are made concerning Elgar? Are you trying to mirror 71dB's adulation negatively? I don't think such compensation is neccessary. Why does every obsevation concerning Elgar have to exhibit contempt for the composer and a superior attitude to his advocate? We already understand that such hero-worship is excessive, so why not discuss this composer like any other without the attitude?
Late in responding to this — I actually like Elgar quite a bit. I was just wondering why it seemed "so ridiculous" to meh/Karajan kid/asian girl/whatever that Elgar could be influenced by Handel.
Quote from: Corey on June 10, 2008, 04:46:22 PM
Late in responding to this — I actually like Elgar quite a bit. I was just wondering why it seemed "so ridiculous" to meh/Karajan kid/asian girl/whatever that Elgar could be influenced by Handel.
On the contrary, I would expect considerable influence by Handel on Elgar, especially in the oratorios. This was the great age of monumental Victorian/Edwardian English oratorio performance, and Elgar would have absorbed that culture and attempted to inherit its mantel.
The Kyrie from Ligeti's Requiem. OK, it's impossible to follow all 20-odd vocal lines, and so the effect is more of a mass of sound, but I think I'm right in saying that Ligeti was quite scrupulous in constructing a web of genuine canons. He didn't do a Penderecki and fling a load of graphic notation at the page, saying, "Oh, sod it, that'll do. You get the general idea."
I think I'll definitely have to hear that Kyrie sometime, MDL. But you've just reminded me of the last movement of Hovhaness' Mount St. Helens Symphony (#50), in which the apparent volcanic (literally) chaos in the last movement is actually tightly organized into canons. Very impressive! :D
Counter-point
http://www.medwaypvb.com/images/atari/CIMG0137.JPG
Quote from: jochanaan on June 11, 2008, 09:01:30 AM
I think I'll definitely have to hear that Kyrie sometime, MDL. But you've just reminded me of the last movement of Hovhaness' Mount St. Helens Symphony (#50), in which the apparent volcanic (literally) chaos in the last movement is actually tightly organized into canons. Very impressive! :D
If you've seen Kubrick's
2001, you'll have heard the Kyrie. It's played each time the black monolith makes an appearance.
The Kyrie from Mozart's Requiem always impressed me. Other favorites are the fugue in c minor from Bach's well tempered clavier I, the 3 part fugue from Bach's Art of the Fugue, the Alle Breve for organ (also J.S. Bach) the Fugato from Beethoven's 9th, 4th movement (just after the turkish march), the first Kyrie from Bach's mass in b minor. Lot's of others, just hard to remember them all.
Quote from: MDL on June 11, 2008, 09:21:25 AM
If you've seen Kubrick's 2001, you'll have heard the Kyrie. It's played each time the black monolith makes an appearance.
Oh, that! Why didn't you say so? ;D
Quote from: MN Dave on June 11, 2008, 09:16:30 AM
Counter-point
http://www.medwaypvb.com/images/atari/CIMG0137.JPG
Impressive...
most impressive...
(http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/twentieth_century_fox/the_empire_strikes_back/_group_photos/david_prowse3.jpg)
Quote from: lukeottevanger on May 21, 2008, 03:10:25 AM
It's an interesting one: it's one of Mendelssohn's finest Baroque pastiches, by which I mean, he doesn't just copy the stylistic traits of JSB etc., he actually tries to recreate, in a Romanticised way, the whole ethos and atmosphere of Bachian religious counterpoint as he saw it. This doesn't necessariyl mean actually writing real Bachian counterpoint all the way through. So one can almost see the music putting its hands together in prayer, one can hear the cadences of scripture and chorale, the organ breaks out in peals of joy at the end etc. But underneath this impressive and effective surface, and stripping away the textural and expressive underpinnings (booming octaves for the organ pedals etc. etc.) the counterpoint itself is quite straightforward and not actually always that strict - as I said, this piece is concerned with the effect rather than the substance, and often, although it sounds like a tortuous, expressive fugal working-out, it is not always truly fugal at all.
Its a stunning work.
Here's another example of fine counter point from a different Mendelssohn Prelude and Fugue
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnMX2oeZMDU
8) Well J. Sebastian Bach kind of rules I think. It is difficult to pick a single work. I have just recently been trying to learn the Busoni piano transcription of Bach's BWV 541 (a Prelude and Fuge in G major). Even before I got as far the fugue, I was SO impressed with the counterpoint in the prelude.
Now counterpoint is not really my big thing. I appreciate it enough, but the fact that Bach can do it and still make entertaining music is in itself such an amazing feat.
Where do we draw the line between counterpoint as something impressive, and counterpoint as dry exercise?
We all know that Carl Philip Emmanuel Bach (I think it was the Prussian Bach) had a slide-rule-like contraption which could generate counterpoint, yes? ; )
I think I am repeating myself from eariler in this thread, but Carter's 3rd SQ is at the pinnacle here
The symphonies of Ernst Toch are most exquisite examples of counterpoint. #3, #6, and #7 are especially recommended.
Surely mentioned already, but if not:
Prokofiev's Symphony #2.
Bruckner's Symphony #5