I'm sure many GMG'ers will view the title of this thread as heretic. But here goes .....
I am a fan of Kleiber's recording of Beethoven 5 and 7 with the VPO. So, I had no hesitation in ordering Brahms 4 with the same team. But I have to say that a first listening has left me somewhat cold. The music is beautifully played and the precision is incredible. But I find myself unmoved. It seems to me that the emotional side is just not there. Tempos are rock solid (not slow, but no variation) and there is little dramatic ebb and flow. In some passages I almost get the impression that this is how a computer would play the music. For example, I love the stormy end to the first movement and I really expect passion and attack here. But Kleiber plays it so straight that I feel something is missing.
I compared with my only other recording, which is that of Szell and the Clevelanders. I generally love George, but this time I found him to be far too slow and even farther away from my ideal than Kleiber.
Maybe I need Fritz Reiner, or maybe others have suggestions for a more fiery and passionate Brahms 4 recording. In any case I will listen again to Carlos. Maybe I wasn't in the right mood ....... But please post your recommendations for this wonderful work.
Not heretical at all; Kleiber's VPO Brahms 4 is imperfect, though I still find it compelling. It's certainly better than his later recording of the work, though.
Why not try Karajan DG or EMI, and Solti on Decca.
Thanks for this thread. I'm always on the lookout for a new 4th.
Noooo...not when that CD is on its way to me. :( OTOH, I'm not really good at interpreting interpretations, so it doesn't matter all that much. But to echo what the new and non-capitalised MN Dave ;) said, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on other recordings. :)
For Brahms sym. 4, I personally like Reiner/RPO in whatever incarnation it now exists (Chesky?). Van Beinum is a less frequently touted name in the work, but very good if not quite at the same adrenaline level as Reiner. Beyond these, most of my favorites are historical and thus may not qualify for consideration due to sonics.
Like Todd, I classify Carlos Kleiber compelling if not ideal in this work. I frequently find Kleiber's live recordings...often on smaller labels...more impressive and involving than the critically acclaimed items on DGG. But the only live 4th I have by him doesn't follow that rule...and mine is probably a minority opinion, anyway.
Dirk
Quote from: alkan on May 30, 2008, 05:56:09 AM
I'm sure many GMG'ers will view the title of this thread as heretic. But here goes .....
Burn the heretic! ;D
I am one whom you might call a lover of Kleiber's Brahms Fourth; I would not hesitate in nominating it for any of my desert island lists (or being my only desert island disc). However, I can tell you there is a recording you are going to love - Michael Gielen's with the SWR on the Hanssler record label. The coda of the first movement trumps Kleiber and everyone else for excitement and ferocity, the orchestral playing throughout is just as marvelous (and the sound is digital), and Gielen is generally more willing to allow the tempo to fluctuate (he's a bit speedier than Carlos overall). I remain, after all these years, steadfastly loyal to the Kleiber album, but Gielen's performance is the only time I've felt that loyalty waver. As MN Dave can attest, I once listened to it four times in two days. In some ways it really is better, and it's definitely a classic. :)
I also do not place Kleiber's 4th at tye top of the tree. For me, Reiner is the one, followed by Bruno Walter.
Walter/NYPO, Jochum/LSO, and Dorati all put Kleiber in the shade, IMO.
Quote from: Harry on May 30, 2008, 06:49:11 AM
Why not try Karajan DG...
HvK's 1964 DG recording is wonderful! :)
Quote from: Brian on May 30, 2008, 01:01:51 PM
As MN Dave can attest, I once listened to it four times in two days. In some ways it really is better, and it's definitely a classic. :)
Maybe I should get that one.
Quote from: mn dave on May 30, 2008, 07:56:15 PM
Maybe I should get that one.
Naxos Music Library has it, if you've got that, or eMusic has 30 second clips of each movement to sample...
Quote from: Brian on May 30, 2008, 08:05:03 PM
Naxos Music Library has it, if you've got that, or eMusic has 30 second clips of each movement to sample...
Thanks, Brian.
I like Carlos Kleiber in Brahms 4th. His version is one of the most coherent I know.
But there are other exceptional versions. Bruno Walter, more emotional and dynamic, Furtwängler (BPO) very powerful, Karajan (1978) with a remarkable sense of the details and the color.
"Disappointed by Kleiber's Brahms' 4th Symphony."
Yes.
"Disappointed by Kleiber's Beethoven's 5th Symphony."
Yes.
Carlos Kleiber has impressed me with his studio Beethoven 7th, and his one live Beethoven 6th; practically nothing else! :P
Re Brahms' 4th, my prime recommendation is Karajan's, from 1977. My favourite from Karajan, on the other hand, is the 1964 performance George mentioned. And the one I consider best of them all is the Fürtwangler 1948 BPO recording.
But there are many splendid recordings of the 4th; Rudolf Kempe's is one that immediately comes to mind! Walter too, Weingartner if we're going that far back... Also the intellectual Harnoncourt, Gielen, very analytical, etc.
Bottom line from a Brahms symphony nutcase:
Try the glowing Karajan 1977, or the passionate but slower-burning (and rougher-sounding) 1964, and call me in the morning. ;D
P.S.: Much to my dismay, I have never heard Karajan's Brahms' 4th from the 1980's, so I can't comment on that: but I do imagine I'll enjoy it, and I'm likely importing it from Japan (where it's been reissued), anyway, to settle the "Karajan Brahms" affair.
Quote from: Renfield on May 31, 2008, 03:58:27 AM
Carlos Kleiber has impressed me with his studio Beethoven 7th, and his one live Beethoven 6th; practically nothing else! :P
*Brian chases Renfield with a pitchfork*
>:D
Quote from: Renfield on May 31, 2008, 03:58:27 AM
Carlos Kleiber has impressed me with his studio Beethoven 7th
I have a love-hate relationship with that one. (DG, paired with the 5th.) I love the last two movements, but IMO he misses the transition point in the first movement. And similarly there are moments in the second movement that aren't played like what I usually hear (and like) in other performances.
Quote from: opus67 on May 31, 2008, 07:04:20 AM
And similarly there are moments in the second movement that aren't played like what I usually hear (and like) in other performances.
I've no trouble seconding this, which probably applies to his 5th as well; but contrary to the 5th, the 7th does manage to remain convincing enough, to my ears, and (as I said)
impress me.
Not to say it's my favourite, but I regard it very highly as a conductor's "statement" on Beethoven's 7th, in this case Kleiber Jr's.
Quote from: Brian on May 31, 2008, 06:56:47 AM
*Brian chases Renfield with a pitchfork*
>:D
*evades Brian's pitchfork*
You know, I actually do think there is a Kleiber who got Beethoven's 5th just right:
Erich Kleiber.
Ditto for most other things his son recorded, at least in my view. 8)
*prepares to dodge further pitchforks*
Quote from: Renfield on May 31, 2008, 08:30:55 AM
You know, I actually do think there is a Kleiber who got Beethoven's 5th just right: Erich Kleiber.
Ditto for most other things his son recorded, at least in my view. 8)
Now,
there is a thought.....8)
BTW, I think that son Carlos was at his best in opera.
Q
Quote from: Que on May 31, 2008, 09:14:02 AM
Now, there is a thought.....8)
BTW, I think that son Carlos was at his best in opera.
Q
I almost added "I've yet to hear Carlos Kleiber conducting operatic repertoire, though" to my post above; but I decided against it, off-topic as I was already going with it.
I am, however, certainly tempted to hear him in opera. In fact,
there is a thought for me, when I next go opera-shopping! ;)
Quote from: Renfield on May 31, 2008, 09:42:29 AM
I almost added "I've yet to hear Carlos Kleiber conducting operatic repertoire, though" to my post above; but I decided against it, off-topic as I was already going with it.
I am, however, certainly tempted to hear him in opera. In fact, there is a thought for me, when I next go opera-shopping! ;)
And let's spread the word on Erich 8) - a
phenomenal conductor! :)
Q
Quote from: Que on May 31, 2008, 09:46:39 AM
And let's spread the word on Erich 8) - a phenomenal conductor! :)
Q
He most certainly is. 8)
Such a shame he's mentioned so seldom: he truly belongs to the very top rank of German conductors of the 20th century.
Quote from: alkan on May 30, 2008, 05:56:09 AM
I'm sure many GMG'ers will view the title of this thread as heretic. But here goes .....
I am a fan of Kleiber's recording of Beethoven 5 and 7 with the VPO. So, I had no hesitation in ordering Brahms 4 with the same team. But I have to say that a first listening has left me somewhat cold. The music is beautifully played and the precision is incredible. But I find myself unmoved. It seems to me that the emotional side is just not there. Tempos are rock solid (not slow, but no variation) and there is little dramatic ebb and flow. In some passages I almost get the impression that this is how a computer would play the music. For example, I love the stormy end to the first movement and I really expect passion and attack here. But Kleiber plays it so straight that I feel something is missing.
I compared with my only other recording, which is that of Szell and the Clevelanders. I generally love George, but this time I found him to be far too slow and even farther away from my ideal than Kleiber.
Maybe I need Fritz Reiner, or maybe others have suggestions for a more fiery and passionate Brahms 4 recording. In any case I will listen again to Carlos. Maybe I wasn't in the right mood ....... But please post your recommendations for this wonderful work.
My main recommendation for this piece would be the recording with Carlos Kleiber and the Wiener Philharmoniker. It may not be the single most superficially "exciting" account of the piece (dunno what that would be), but after hearing countless live and recorded performances of this symphony (as well as having played it myself many, many times in orchestras), I always keep coming back to this performance because it is just so to-the-point, musically so dead-on in every moment, lean and mean but still very expressive, but not in a "schmaltzy", "romantic" way, just in the clarity and conviction with which the musical points are stated. Kleiber had this knack of finding exactly the right tone for every phrase in the pieces he conducted (even if those became fewer and fewer with the years) so his performances at the same time have a simplicity and clarity but still musical depth and "meaning". I also heard the 4th live with him, the only time I ever saw him conduct in person, in Berlin (1994 or so). One of the great, unforgettable musical experiences of my life. The electricity in the air was almost unbearable and the orchestra gave everything, all the musicians on the edges of their chairs, reacting to the smallest nuances Kleiber indicated. He pretty much let them play (after several very intense and detailed rehearsals) but was still totaly in control, more supervising the musical proceedings and intervening only in certain key moments. Also a great example for orchestral music making and conducting at its finest. There are good reasons for why Kleiber was so deeply admired by many, even by the most routined and cynical professional musicians.
There are many "nice" and/or "exciting" recordings of this symphony, so the options are endless, but I haven't yet heard one which I found quite as compelling as this one, only the recording by Wand and the NDR-Sinfonieorchester comes close in its musical shaping of the piece (and it is rather more "dark" and "lush" as far as the orchestral sound is concerned, so that may even be preferable for those for which that is a plus in itself).
Quote from: alkan on May 30, 2008, 05:56:09 AMBut I have to say that a first listening has left me somewhat cold. The music is beautifully played and the precision is incredible. But I find myself unmoved. It seems to me that the emotional side is just not there. Tempos are rock solid (not slow, but no variation) and there is little dramatic ebb and flow. In some passages I almost get the impression that this is how a computer would play the music. For example, I love the stormy end to the first movement and I really expect passion and attack here.
You've said what I've long felt about Kleiber's performance. It leaves me cold too. M talks about superficial excitement: well, Kleiber defines that phrase for me here. It's an exciting performance but too mechanical and too often skates the surface, especially that first movement. Not a bad performance by any means but not one I want to hear often.
For an incomparable "stormy end" I suggest you try Bernstein conducting the Wiener Phil, part of his Brahms cycle for DG. He reins in the tempo in the final pages of the first movement to quite dramatic and emotional effect; gives the music its full tragic weight (that's the way I hear it anyway, and want to hear it). The last movement is very slow, with tempos really hauled about. I can imagine some, maybe most becoming impatient at this point, but it's just Lenny being Lenny and I find it very moving.
Other performances I love: Furtwängler with the Berlin Phil, 10.06.49 and 15.12.43. I think Furtwängler is the supreme interpreter of Brahms and listening to one of his live performances is like riding a rollercoaster...heart-stopping emotional peaks and valleys. Very different is Wand/NDR, more straight forward but finding the essence of Brahms. His complete cycle is my favorite in modern sound and his Fourth is superb although closer in spirit to Kleiber than Bernstein or Furtwängler. Dohnányi/Cleveland really surprised me (his cycle is a recent purchase). For a conductor with a reputation for objectivity, it's surprising how
un-objective his performance is...and the Cleveland sounds really splendid. The 1964 Karajan is a first love: the first Brahms Fourth I ever heard, my first Brahms recording. I claim absolutely no objectivity recommending that recording.
Sarge
Very interesting to hear quite divergent opinions from two stalwarts of the forum !!
I listened again to Kleiber and thought a bit more about the music. Personally I don't feel the music as tragic at all. That adjective just doesn't come into my head. I think more of "serious", "majestic" and "monumental", but also "passionate and emotional"; not just the coda of the 1st movement, but the sublime moment in the slow movement when the strings play full-bloodedly after bars and bars of pizzicato accompaniment. And the 3rd mvmt is really jolly and exhuberant. I think it is this mixture of intellect/discipline and emotion/grandeur that gives the symphony its special character. And it maybe this that makes it tricky to find my ideal recording that balances the two aspects. I'm afraid that Bernstein may be right at the other end of the scale to Kleiber .... I don't like the thought of him overdoing the emotional bit ... !
Bottom line, if I'm in the mood for looking at the symphony under a microscope and trying to understand what's going on underneath the surface, I don't think I can do better than Kleiber. If I'm looking for emotions and thrills, I probably need someone else ....
By the way, I think that the Furtwangler recording was the first one I heard, and it has probably set my high expectations. However, right now I'm looking for a version with a little better sound.
Quote from: alkan on June 01, 2008, 10:58:01 AM
I'm afraid that Bernstein may be right at the other end of the scale to Kleiber .... I don't like the thought of him overdoing the emotional bit
Well, Goldilocks ;) if Bernstein is too hot, and Kleiber too cold, there are dozens of other recordings that should be just right for you. You might check out Wand, a conductor M and I both agree on. Please keep us informed how the search goes. I'm interested in knowing which recording finally gives you everything you want.
Sarge
Quote from: alkan on June 01, 2008, 10:58:01 AM
I'm afraid that Bernstein may be right at the other end of the scale to Kleiber .... I don't like the thought of him overdoing the emotional bit ... !
I don't think Bernstein is any more "emotional" or "expressive" than Kleiber. It's just a different kind of emotionality and expressiveness. Apart from Wand's recording, maybe you should also check out Giulini's last recording, with the Wiener Philharmoniker, too. It is rather broader and "grander" then both Kleiber and Bernstein but it is a very intense and "tragic" reading in the way it conveys a feeling of inevitability and the workings of fate driving the music.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 01, 2008, 11:41:25 AM
Well, Goldilocks ;) if Bernstein is too hot, and Kleiber too cold,
Apart from their awful conducting, both Kleiber and Bernstein are abyssmal at making porridge. I just don't understand how two intelligent people can fail to get the temperature right for such a straightforward dish. Oh well, looks like I need to check out "baby-bear Wand" ..... hopefully he will be "just right" :)
Quote from: alkan on June 02, 2008, 02:14:07 AM
Apart from their awful conducting, both Kleiber and Bernstein
Careful, you may have just made a lot of well-informed enemies. :D
Quote from: Brian on June 02, 2008, 06:07:44 AM
Careful, you may have just made a lot of well-informed enemies. :D
Whoops .... did I really say "awful conducting" ??? I meant to say "awful cooking" !!!
Sorry for the misunderstanding ..... ::)
Quote from: alkan on June 02, 2008, 08:42:13 AM
Whoops .... did I really say "awful conducting" ??? I meant to say "awful cooking" !!!
Sorry for the misunderstanding ..... ::)
Bernstein once made me a superb grilled cheese. ;D
Quote from: George on June 02, 2008, 09:25:09 AM
Bernstein once made me a superb grilled cheese. ;D
;D
If you regard it as a disappointment that this isn't the best recording of Brahms 4 of all time, then maybe you have a point. But I would only say a recording or performance is disappointing if it fails to do justice to the piece in an absolute sense. I can't see how this recording, that combines the performance tradition of the VPO with Kleiber's sensitive yet vigorous interpretation can disappoint.
However, there are other remarkable recordings. I'd say the best I have ever heard is the Kertesz, VPO on Decca (1973). The entire set is wonderful in the way it lets the unobtrusive counterpoint the is present in every bar of Brahms reveal itself. Another that is remarkable is Karajan's 1964 recording. In that recording he takes the first movement unusually slowly, and uses the extra time to make the articulation and phrasing extraordinarily vivid. One for the ages. I also like Karajan's 1978 recording, although that one is to some extant sabotaged by the DG engineers, the winds and brass are far to dull and weak in the mix, causing the strings to dominate inappropriately. Szell is very taut in Brahms, not at all bad, but lacking in charm, a similar approach that works better for me is the Bohm VPO set. Bernstein, well the less said the better.
Quote from: alkan on May 30, 2008, 05:56:09 AM
I'm sure many GMG'ers will view the title of this thread as heretic. But here goes .....
I am a fan of Kleiber's recording of Beethoven 5 and 7 with the VPO. So, I had no hesitation in ordering Brahms 4 with the same team. But I have to say that a first listening has left me somewhat cold. The music is beautifully played and the precision is incredible. But I find myself unmoved. It seems to me that the emotional side is just not there. Tempos are rock solid (not slow, but no variation) and there is little dramatic ebb and flow. In some passages I almost get the impression that this is how a computer would play the music. For example, I love the stormy end to the first movement and I really expect passion and attack here. But Kleiber plays it so straight that I feel something is missing.
I compared with my only other recording, which is that of Szell and the Clevelanders. I generally love George, but this time I found him to be far too slow and even farther away from my ideal than Kleiber.
Maybe I need Fritz Reiner, or maybe others have suggestions for a more fiery and passionate Brahms 4 recording. In any case I will listen again to Carlos. Maybe I wasn't in the right mood ....... But please post your recommendations for this wonderful work.
Quote from: Tyson on May 30, 2008, 03:57:06 PM
Walter/NYPO, Jochum/LSO, and Dorati all put Kleiber in the shade, IMO.
I prefer Jochum/Berlin over Jochum/LSO, on the double DG, mono, only problem is the sound that might not be always balanced and elegant, but top performance.
Quote from: scarpia on June 03, 2008, 02:32:18 PM
If you regard it as a disappointment that this isn't the best recording of Brahms 4 of all time, then maybe you have a point. But I would only say a recording or performance is disappointing if it fails to do justice to the piece in an absolute sense. I can't see how this recording, that combines the performance tradition of the VPO with Kleiber's sensitive yet vigorous interpretation can disappoint.
Let me clarify. I take as a basic assumption that there are NO absolutes in good/bad interpretations .... everything is subjective (which makes it all interesting of course). I really like Kleiber's Beethoven 5 and 7, and I have seen many ecstatic reviews of his Brahms 4. So my expectations were REALLY high when the CD arrived in the post. But I've heard this music many times before, and certain high points from live concerts or other CD's stick in my mind and set my expectations. So it was quite wierd that I felt a little "cheated" by my first hearing of Kleiber. I was expecting more thrills at the high points and didn't get them. Now, if I approach Kleiber's CD in the frame of mind "I really want to understand the structure, the details, what's under the surface, and how did Brahms construct this monument?", then Kleiber is absolutely marvellous. I suspect that this is one of those recordings that "grows on you" with repeated hearings ...... it is certainly beautifully played, and the control of the phrasing and synchronisation is razor sharp. Maybe this level of technical perfection is an "enemy" of fully conveying emotions, which tend to be untidier and more impulsive ...... As Sarge pointed out, you can't have it both ways (hot and cold porridge) ........ although I am encouraged that Cindarella did manage to find some porridge that was "just right"
Thanks for your other recommendations. It's a pity I have a limited budget, but I'll keep them in mind when I go bargain hunting and when I visit the library ...
Quote from: alkan on June 04, 2008, 02:07:50 AM
although I am encouraged that Cindarella did manage to find some porridge that was "just right"
And the glass slipper fit perfectly, too! ;D
Quote from: opus67 on June 04, 2008, 05:55:22 AM
And the glass slipper fit perfectly, too! ;D
Whoooops ...... there I go, mixing up my nursery stories !!!! I meant to say "Goldilocks" of course ..... :)
Well, all I can say in my defence is that it was all a loooong time ago .... :-\
The direction this thread has taken surprises me, because while I guess I agree that Kleiber's performance is beautifully built, the appeal of it for me is that it always just about moves me to tears. Here I thought it was incredibly emotional all this time :( :D
Quote from: Brian on June 04, 2008, 06:43:37 AM
The direction this thread has taken surprises me, because while I guess I agree that Kleiber's performance is beautifully built, the appeal of it for me is that it always just about moves me to tears. Here I thought it was incredibly emotional all this time :( :D
Let's just say some of us prefer the roller coaster approach. If I was to discuss emotional content, I'd say I perceive Kleiber's as a melancholic traversal, but not one leading to (as Karajan used to say) "complete catastrophe".
That's why I place it in the second rank of favourite Brahms' 4ths. Make no mistake, like the Beethoven 5th I often "bash", it is a superb performance: just not
right, not for me (and not only me, as it would seem). :)
??
Quote from: Renfield on June 04, 2008, 07:24:50 AM
Make no mistake, like the Beethoven 5th I often "bash"
What's your favourite Beethoven 5th Symphony ?
Quote from: alkan on June 04, 2008, 08:23:58 AM
??
What's your favourite Beethoven 5th Symphony ?
Hard question.
Favourite
s would be
Toscanini's (1939, NBC SO),
Erich Kleiber's (1953, Concertgebouw Orchestra),
Klemperer's (1955, Philharmonia),
Fürtwangler's (1943, BPO) and
Weingartner's (1933 - LPO) recordings.
But above all, for me the 5th is
Karajan's piece, whether in 1963, 1977, 1984 (BPO), or earlier with the VPO in 1947.
Szell is also not at all far behind the above in my view; particularly a recent live release from 1955 (Cleveland Orchestra).
If I were forced to choose subjectively, based on personal preference, I'd go for the "heavy" Karajan 1984. If choosing more objectively, it'd be between the 1953 Erich Kleiber, the 1963 Karajan, the 1939 Toscanini, and the 1955 Klemperer. :)
Quote from: alkan on May 30, 2008, 05:56:09 AM
I'm sure many GMG'ers will view the title of this thread as heretic. But here goes ...
I am a fan of Kleiber's recording of Beethoven 5 and 7 with the VPO. So, I had no hesitation in ordering Brahms 4 with the same team. But I have to say that a first listening has left me somewhat cold. The music is beautifully played and the precision is incredible. But I find myself unmoved. It seems to me that the emotional side is just not there.
Looking back to the CMF I was surprised by this provocative thread title on Carlos Kleiber and the Brahms 4th.
I am a big admirer of the Kleibers's talent (father and son). I enjoy most of their preserved performances – either opera or symphonic – and they both have made an imprint in my musical listening over the years. But for me, in spite of their close relation, their artistic character was quite different and it is by their contrasting approach and not by the similarities that I may try to compare them.
Coming back to the Brahms 4th I do understand the "heretic" appreciation that one of the most revered recordings of the work, although very impressive by the elegance and transparency may lack the dramatic effects of some more openly expressive readings.
We can compare the "official" CK Vienna version with so many other versions by the other great conductors but (AFAIK) we don't have a preserved recording of the Brahms symphonies conducted by the father Erich. But we do have other readings of the Brahms 4th by Carlos. At least 6 of them have been commercially released over the years. And when we listen to them we get different facets of the conductor – the easier to get is the alternative official 21 Oct 1996 recording with the Bayerisches Staatsorchester (DVD – DG) but if you want to listen a more free and almost violent Carlos Kleiber you may have to look for his performance with this same orchestra at Ingorstadt (5 Apr 1996 - Memories 1027-28). If you forgive the sonic imperfections of this live recording you may perhaps rediscover the emotional Carlos Kleiber you missed.
Carlos
(http://www.logoseletronico.com/arqmel/images/diver/kk.jpg)
I'd forgotten about this thread. It's great reading, and everyone stayed civil...even, shockingly, me and M ;D
I wonder if Alkan ever found his ideal Fourth. I took Brian's advice, acquired Gielen. That is a great one, too; one of my favorites now along with Wand, Eschenbach, Lenny and Karajan 64.
Sarge
Quote from: samtrb on June 03, 2008, 08:29:22 PM
I prefer Jochum/Berlin over Jochum/LSO, on the double DG, mono, only problem is the sound that might not be always balanced and elegant, but top performance.
Agreed, but it's mono, and the OP already is looking for better sound than the Furtwangler he has already.
How does Rattle's 4th compare (or the 1st, 2nd and/or 3rd, for that matter...)?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EzCvQQFuL._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: Mr. Darcy on November 15, 2009, 06:42:16 PM
How does Rattle's 4th compare (or the 1st, 2nd and/or 3rd, for that matter...)?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EzCvQQFuL._SS500_.jpg)
I reviewed that in detail HERE (http://tonicblotter.blogspot.com/2009/11/little-rattlebpo-record-guide.html) (among other recent Rattle releases). (And I'm about to go hear Rattle/BPO do No.2 tomorrow.)
As to Kleiber's Brahms 4, whoever thinks this isn't their cup of tea needs to keep that recording on the shelf for a while and revisit it a few years later, score in hand preferably. To me the most valuable recordings are those that yield new insights into a piece with every new spin - and Kleiber's Brahms 4 is practically the prototype for such a recording. There are always new things to discover, especially regarding how certain details fit in with the whole. Yes, there are other recordings I may prefer to listen to on a given day and there might be some that I may even at times consider to have gotten the inner movements down more convincingly, but the Kleiber remains a reference for good reason: I simply haven't come across another recording which is so thoroughly well thought out and yet spontaneous in execution. Wand comes close and there are others that get individual movements down as good or better in some ways, but not in others, but Kleiber rules in the finale. Nobody in my mind has yet achieved that sense of tragic inevitability. The comparison to the aforementioned Rattle recording is instructive here: Rattle doesn't connect the individual variations of the passacaglia into one coherent whole. We're left with disconnected bits that make an unsatisfactory conclusion to what started out as a great symphony.