I am only posting a selected few, but they are incredible! Words fail me!
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Great photos. The newspaper today said that the terrific "footprints" fireworks were faked on a computer screen.
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Fabulous, Paul!
Thanks for posting these, Paul--marvelous! I caught a bit of the end of the ceremonies on Friday, and from the little I saw, was sad I missed most of it. But I suspect a DVD of the entire thing will make itself available at some point.
Definitely set a high standard for this kind of production. When I heard Zhang Yimou was going to direct, I thought it could either be terrific or a huge bust, and apparently it turned out to be the former.
--Bruce
Quote from: vandermolen on August 11, 2008, 08:27:31 AM
Great photos. The newspaper today said that the terrific "footprints" fireworks were faked on a computer screen.
Well, there were rumors to that effect, BUT, there were 29 trucks stations from Yongdingmen through Tiananmen to the Bird Nest, and the first shot at Yongdingmen was no more than a mile from me, and many of my neighbors were there to see it. So they did fire them. I guess it is possible that for TV, most of the steps along the were were shot on simulation, if only because the distance covered can not be captured live too well, considering the difficulty of covering 20 miles in a matter of half a minute. But the first shot were seen by people I know and the last few shots around the stadium were certainly seen by the people inside. More than likely, all the shots were done, but for TV, much of the middle part that looked to be caught in flight were simulations.
Quote from: springrite on August 11, 2008, 08:53:29 AM
Well, there were rumors to that effect, BUT, there were 29 trucks stations from Yongdingmen through Tiananmen to the Bird Nest, and the first shot at Yongdingmen was no more than a mile from me, and many of my neighbors were there to see it. So they did fire them. I guess it is possible that for TV, most of the steps along the were were shot on simulation, if only because the distance covered can not be captured live too well, considering the difficulty of covering 20 miles in a matter of half a minute. But the first shot were seen by people I know and the last few shots around the stadium were certainly seen by the people inside. More than likely, all the shots were done, but for TV, much of the middle part that looked to be caught in flight were simulations.
Yes, you are absolutely right. The "footprint" fireworks were there but they thought it too risky for the helicopter pilot to track them live, which is why they included a bit of computer simulation. The whole thing was extraordinary. When it comes to London in 2012 probably everything will be on strike ;D
I was disappointed that I could not get any footage on YouTube beyond the drummers, impressive, but clearly there was so much more to see. If there are any good links to clips, let me know.
Mike
Quote from: springrite on August 11, 2008, 08:31:53 AM
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What are those spirals in the background as the guy with the torch swings?
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8724.0;attach=11167;image)
Quote from: scarpia on August 11, 2008, 09:32:18 AM
What are those spirals in the background as the guy with the torch swings?
If you have seen the torch you'd notice that it has the same design on it. It is traditional Chinese figure to depict clouds.
Paul, These seem to be opening ceremonies of a different kind that I expected, though undeniably interesting. Seems like the Russians have invaded cyberspace.
Mike
Quote from: knight on August 11, 2008, 09:50:36 AM
Paul, These seem to be opening ceremonies of a different kind that I expected, though undeniably interesting. Seems like the Russians have invaded cyberspace.
:D Where there is piracy and other related online media distribution, there is Russia ;D
Quote from: Lethe on August 11, 2008, 05:41:18 PM
:D Where there is piracy and other related online media distribution, there is Russia ;D
Get aboard, rob this forum! :D
Paul: Absolutely stunning and I thank you very much for posting them all. I do not have TV and it's at times like these I almost regret it, but as Bruce said, surely there will be DVDs produced by the Chinese government and they will be the biggest seller of all DVDs ever. - Maybe even more than the ones of The Three Tenors! ::)
Tell me, if you can, where did they get all the people to perform? I know China has the most people, but there must be thousands and all look young and slim and athletic. I wonder did the performers get to keep those fantastic costumes they wore?
Quote from: uffeviking on August 11, 2008, 07:02:27 PM
Tell me, if you can, where did they get all the people to perform? I know China has the most people, but there must be thousands and all look young and slim and athletic. I wonder did the performers get to keep those fantastic costumes they wore?
Many of the male performers are from the constitutional guards, who usually perform ceremonial duties such as welcoming visiting heads of state. They are from the same institution as the guard doing the flag raising ceremony. The rest are selected dancers from various performing arts schools and institutions. For the students it sure looks good on the resume when they go job hunting. The girl who sang was seen by Zhang Yimou when he visited a school and saw her playing with other kids.
This is the first opening ceremony of a summer olympic games that I actually enjoyed. It was quite impressive and I really enjoyed the drummers. Living here in Austria we are only 6 hours behind Peking time so we were able to watch it live as well as all of the events (that is if you want to get up at 3 or 4am to see the early ones).
Thanks for posting all of those lovely photos as well. 8)
That opening was incredible.
"Astonishing". What else could we expect from China?!
Right now there is a documentary about China here in Québec. It just came out on DVD, so you might want to check it out. It's called "Wild China". I knew China's wilderness was beautilful, but not that beautiful!
Quote from: springrite on August 11, 2008, 09:00:45 PM
Many of the male performers are from the constitutional guards, who usually perform ceremonial duties such as welcoming visiting heads of state. They are from the same institution as the guard doing the flag raising ceremony. The rest are selected dancers from various performing arts schools and institutions. For the students it sure looks good on the resume when they go job hunting. The girl who sang was seen by Zhang Yimou when he visited a school and saw her playing with other kids.
The girl who sang was two girls. The singer was not deemed to be pretty enough, so they had one girl sing (7-year-old Yang Peiyi) while the "cuter" girl (9-year-old Lin Miaoke) lip-synced and acted out the song.
Here's a picture of the voice behind the face. I think she's just adorable, and certainly didn't deserve to be told that she wasn't pretty enough to perform on the international stage. China needs to appreciate all of their girl children much more, imo!
(http://profile.ak.facebook.com/object3/1573/73/n22484572219_8459.jpg)
Awesome pictures........ i wonder what the crowds are like over there, though :-X
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on August 12, 2008, 10:49:09 AM
Awesome pictures........ i wonder what the crowds are like over there, though :-X
They are very docile, except when they are murdering Americans and committing suicide.
Zhang Yimou sure knows how to put up a show! But, having seen most of his movies, that should be a piece of cake for him.
Quote from: Gustav on August 12, 2008, 11:09:57 AM
Zhang Yimou sure knows how to put up a show! But, having seen most of his movies, that should be a piece of cake for him.
Just so long as you know that it's a "show," and you don't confuse it with reality.
Quote from: Bunny on August 12, 2008, 11:04:25 AM
They are very docile, except when they are murdering Americans and committing suicide.
hmmmmmmm what if all of them did that?
i think that would be bad.
For those who do not have TV, or want pictures, NBC (USA) is presenting the Olympics. You can access NBC via your computer and see the opening ceremony, and events on delay. We do not have TV at our house either.
Leni Riefenstahl would have liked to film that.
Amen! 8)
Quote from: Bunny on August 12, 2008, 11:04:25 AM
They are very docile, except when they are murdering Americans and committing suicide.
Do you know how many foreign tourists get murdered in America in an average year? Geez! Why the hatred? And why do the hatred allegedly aimed at a government always sounds like it is actually aimed at the people when it comes out?
Paul, please don't feel insulted or hurt, always consider the source of the post! :-*
Quote from: springrite on August 13, 2008, 02:41:24 AM
Do you know how many foreign tourists get murdered in America in an average year? Geez! Why the hatred? And why do the hatred allegedly aimed at a government always sounds like it is actually aimed at the people when it comes out?
And at the Atlanta Olympics an American religious terrorist exploded a bomb in Olympic Park during a public concert. How's that for hospitality?
Quote from: scarpia on August 13, 2008, 07:09:11 AM
And at the Atlanta Olympics an American religious terrorist exploded a bomb in Olympic Park during a public concert. How's that for hospitality?
Yeah, those stupid Americans need to stop picking on the Atlantians- they might start a war one day! >:(
Quote from: springrite on August 13, 2008, 02:41:24 AM
Do you know how many foreign tourists get murdered in America in an average year? Geez! Why the hatred? And why do the hatred allegedly aimed at a government always sounds like it is actually aimed at the people when it comes out?
I know that many foreign tourists are murdered everywhere. The rest of the world just doesn't pretend that the event is totally out of the norm.
I don't hate the Chinese people, just their government which treats their people as just so many mass produced objects.
It is the manipulation of the media that I dislike, and the pretense that these games are about athletics. That is no longer the case.
Quote from: uffeviking on August 13, 2008, 06:36:44 AM
Paul, please don't feel insulted or hurt, always consider the source of the post! :-*
Ha ha.
Quote from: M forever on August 12, 2008, 04:29:37 PM
Leni Riefenstahl would have liked to film that.
Her spirit is alive and well in China, and she's gone digital as well.
Quote from: Bunny on August 12, 2008, 11:48:31 AM
Just so long as you know that it's a "show," and you don't confuse it with reality.
of course, but the director is also quite capable of portraying "reality", have you seen "Not one less"?
Quote from: uffeviking on August 13, 2008, 06:36:44 AM
Paul, please don't feel insulted or hurt, always consider the source of the post! :-*
Here's some more from the "source."
The beautiful dancer pictured below was paralyzed during the rehearsals of the Opening Ceremony. Because the Chinese were so consumed with security during the rehearsal, she was left in agony for close to an hour before medical help was allowed in. Apparently "Esthetic Harmony" comes at a very expensive cost.
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00790/liu-yan-dancing_790235c.jpg)
Initially, olympic organisers downplayed the severity of Liu Yan's injury
In the words of the The Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/olympics/2551869/Beijing-Olympics-Chinese-dancer-injured-in-opening-ceremony-rehearsal-paralysed.html) (not me):
Liu Yan, who was part of the Silk Road dance, fell more than three metres from a piece of scenery, landing on her head and back after a miscalculation by other performers who were supposed to catch her on a moving platform. [...] The Telegraph has learned from a separate source that the Chinese authorities had been given warnings about the need for improved safety measures at rehearsals but that these were disregarded.From the NYTimes (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/sports/olympics/15dancer.html):
Liu said it was a dream that she could be chosen for such a role. But Wednesday, she said she was hoping for a miracle, so that she might some day walk again.
"I hope one day I can just stand up like a normal person," she said wiping away tears. Is everyone still admiring those ceremonies?
Quote from: Bunny on August 17, 2008, 10:22:35 AM
Here's some more from the "source."
The beautiful dancer pictured below was paralyzed during the rehearsals of the Opening Ceremony. Because the Chinese were so consumed with security during the rehearsal, she was left in agony for close to an hour before medical help was allowed in. Apparently "Esthetic Harmony" comes at a very expensive cost.
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00790/liu-yan-dancing_790235c.jpg)
Initially, olympic organisers downplayed the severity of Liu Yan's injury
In the words of the The Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/olympics/2551869/Beijing-Olympics-Chinese-dancer-injured-in-opening-ceremony-rehearsal-paralysed.html) (not me):
Liu Yan, who was part of the Silk Road dance, fell more than three metres from a piece of scenery, landing on her head and back after a miscalculation by other performers who were supposed to catch her on a moving platform. [...] The Telegraph has learned from a separate source that the Chinese authorities had been given warnings about the need for improved safety measures at rehearsals but that these were disregarded.
From the NYTimes (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/sports/olympics/15dancer.html):
Liu said it was a dream that she could be chosen for such a role. But Wednesday, she said she was hoping for a miracle, so that she might some day walk again.
"I hope one day I can just stand up like a normal person," she said wiping away tears.
Is everyone still admiring those ceremonies?
That's a tragedy, an accident, but why does it have to tarnish the opening ceremony? Was Zhang Yimou or the Chinese Government out to get her? Or other dancers? Intentionally putting their lives in danger? How is that going to benefit the Chinese?
If you have something against China, say it, please don't hide behind these "Guilty by Association" games.
Maybe they weren't putting people in danger intentionally, but if this is true:
The Telegraph has learned from a separate source that the Chinese authorities had been given warnings about the need for improved safety measures at rehearsals but that these were disregarded.
then by being negligent. People who run these kinds of shows are responsible for the safety of the participants. Acidents can always happen even with the best security measures out in place, but if even those were neglected, then some people are definitely responsible there.
I have to agree with what you said in the other thread about Bunny exaggerating the severity of Chinese drinking customs, it sounded a little too clichéed to me, too, but you saying "if you have something against China, say it, please don't hide behind these "Guilty by Association" games" is equally silly. Criticizing a regime does not mean having something against a country and culture as such. Would you have said the same in 1936 to someone criticizing the host country's regime?
Quote from: M forever on August 17, 2008, 10:51:19 AM
Maybe they weren't putting people in danger intentionally, but if this is true:
The Telegraph has learned from a separate source that the Chinese authorities had been given warnings about the need for improved safety measures at rehearsals but that these were disregarded.
then by being negligent. People who run these kinds of shows are responsible for the safety of the participants. Acidents can always happen even with the best security measures out in place, but if even those were neglected, then some people are definitely responsible there.
I have to agree with what you said in the other thread about Bunny exaggerating the severity of Chinese drinking customs, it sounded a little too clichéed to me, too, but you saying "if you have something against China, say it, please don't hide behind these "Guilty by Association" games" is equally silly. Criticizing a regime does not mean having something against a country and culture as such. Would you have said the same in 1936 to someone criticizing the host country's regime?
i made that statement first after reading about the drink customs, and the Olympics, and so on.... I'm not a very smart person, but even a monkey is beginning to see what Bunny is trying to do here.
Quote from: M forever on August 17, 2008, 10:51:19 AM
Maybe they weren't putting people in danger intentionally, but if this is true:
The Telegraph has learned from a separate source that the Chinese authorities had been given warnings about the need for improved safety measures at rehearsals but that these were disregarded.
then by being negligent. People who run these kinds of shows are responsible for the safety of the participants. Acidents can always happen even with the best security measures out in place, but if even those were neglected, then some people are definitely responsible there.
I have to agree with what you said in the other thread about Bunny exaggerating the severity of Chinese drinking customs, it sounded a little too clichéed to me, too, but you saying "if you have something against China, say it, please don't hide behind these "Guilty by Association" games" is equally silly. Criticizing a regime does not mean having something against a country and culture as such. Would you have said the same in 1936 to someone criticizing the host country's regime?
I wish I had exaggerated the drinking, but I didn't. I found it shocking that it was so much a part of the culture.
Quote from: Bunny on August 17, 2008, 10:22:35 AM
The beautiful dancer pictured below
That's awful :( I hope the Chinese government award her a significant annual stipend for this
Quote from: Gustav on August 17, 2008, 10:55:04 AM
i made that statement first after reading about the drink customs, and the Olympics, and so on.... I'm not a very smart person, but even a monkey is beginning to see what Bunny is trying to do here.
I didn't know you are a monkey.
And you apparently don't know what Bunny is trying to do. Bunny is trying to point out the Chinese people deserve more than an expensive show, and that any government that is more concerned with the show than the individual people is perhaps not the greatest thing in the world since the invention of the wheel. Add to that the Chinese government's lack of honor with respect to the use of child athletes who are separated from their families and forced to compete in activities that have serious risk attached to them without any choice, and perhaps you will begin to understand why the whole business has made the Bunny rabid. I cannot for athe life of me understand why anyone would think that any gold medal is so important that a child's life need be disrupted. Call it culture shock, but Bunny here thinks that the Chinese government thinks more about its prestige than about the individual Chinese who seem to be very expendible, especially if they are female.
Quote from: Bunny on August 17, 2008, 11:22:57 AM
Bunny is trying to point out the Chinese people deserve more than an expensive show, and that any government that is more concerned with the show than the individual people is perhaps not the greatest thing in the world since the invention of the wheel. Add to that the Chinese government's lack of honor with respect to the use of child athletes who are separated from their families and forced to compete in activities that have serious risk attached to them without any choice, and perhaps you will begin to understand why the whole business has made the Bunny rabid. I cannot for athe life of me understand why anyone would think that any gold medal is so important that a child's life need be disrupted. Call it culture shock, but Bunny here thinks that the Chinese government thinks more about its prestige than about the individual Chinese who seem to be very expendible, especially if they are female.
Doesn't Bunny take into account what the Chinese themselves think about it? Or Bunny just wants to seed American Democracy there? It is so typical of some people to interfere in other people's lives...to set their values and rules for others...
That is China's business if they make fake documents, let underage children perform on the Olympics, and do not keep security (it is so easy to post on the forum something like "it wouldn't have happened, if..." But it has happened, and it was an accident. No?). Let it be on their conscience, let it make them feel uncomfortable. They don't need your "sympathy" and "wishing what they deserved," they are stronger. Just recently I heard a piece of nonsense from an American lady who had returned from China. I really think she'd better take care of herself, not of "the poor Chinese." Mentalities are different, and as long as the Chinese are happy with their regime, it shouldn't bother you. When people are not satisfied with the government, they overthrow it, like it happened many times in history. It happened, too, in China, most recently: at the beginning of the 20th century, and in the middle, actually.
If the Chinese speak out that they are pissed off with the ceremony and the Olympics, that they freaked out at what their government does - then it makes sense. But according to what I've seen and heard so far (I've also Chinese friends, and they have friends back in China), they seem to be happy and proud of their China. And it is not as loathsome as you portray.
Of course, we must control each other (nuclear power, etc.), otherwise...but in reality we know nothing about this controlling and what missiles other nations have, what submarines, etc. I myself have no strong desire to interfere in other people's lives (without them asking me to) and dictate how they must live, what they deserve and what not. They know it better, I suppose.
I suggest that you think about America, where it is going now, and perhaps take some action to make life better. :D Sorry for my dumb post.
Quote from: Sarastro on August 17, 2008, 02:07:44 PM
Sorry for my dumb post.
Yes, that really was a very dumb post. It is true, people should not just point fingers at other places and political situations, also reflect on and, if possible, speak out about the situations in their homeland. Which I have to say Bunny has often done here when it came to discussing American politics.
In essence, what you are saying is that we shouldn't care about the situation of people in other countries, and that is a horrible thing to say because things are really bad for a lot of people in a lot of places. Most people in the world live under far worse economical and political situations than we pampered people in the Western world whose wealth is partially based on exploitation of other people. Although a lot of that is still going on, the overall situation has gotten much better. Pointing out human rights issues wherever they happen is very important.
And people don't simply go and overthrow their government if things aren't OK. They didn't - they couldn't - in the country you come from until they were lucky enough that the system disintegrated. And that system hadn't been put in place by "the people" either. You should read up on the histoty of your own country some time. People didn't overthrow the Nazi regime in Germany either, they were, in a bizarrely ironic way, lucky that they lost the war because those who survived it gained more freedom than ever before. No regime in human history has killed off more people - and its own people at that - than the communist regime which, technically is still in charge in China. Things seem to have greatly improved there and that's a good thing, maybe this political form is the right way for them, but it can't be the right thing if it also involves serious human rights violations on a very large scale. Unless you think that Chinese people don't severve the same basic rights as people in other parts of the world. Is that what you think?
You really need to do a lot of reading up on history.
Quote from: M forever on August 17, 2008, 02:27:30 PM
Yes, that really was a very dumb post. It is true, people should not just point fingers at other places and political situations, also reflect on and, if possible, speak out about the situations in their homeland. Which I have to say Bunny has often done here when it came to discussing American politics.
In essence, what you are saying is that we shouldn't care about the situation of people in other countries, and that is a horrible thing to say because things are really bad for a lot of people in a lot of places. Most people in the world live under far worse economical and political situations than we pampered people in the Western world whose wealth is partially based on exploitation of other people. Although a lot of that is still going on, the overall situation has gotten much better. Pointing out human rights issues wherever they happen is very important.
And people don't simply go and overthrow their government if things aren't OK. They didn't - they couldn't - in the country you come from until they were lucky enough that the system disintegrated. And that system hadn't been put in place by "the people" either. You should read up on the histoty of your own country some time. People didn't overthrow the Nazi regime in Germany either, they were, in a bizarrely ironic way, lucky that they lost the war because those who survived it gained more freedom than ever before. No regime in human history has killed off more people - and its own people at that - than the communist regime which, technically is still in charge in China. Things seem to have greatly improved there and that's a good thing, maybe this political form is the right way for them, but it can't be the right thing if it also involves serious human rights violations on a very large scale. Unless you think that Chinese people don't severve the same basic rights as people in other parts of the world. Is that what you think?
You really need to do a lot of reading up on history.
All those fancy words by pro-Western zealots, whose nations promoted imperialism/colonial regime, slave trading, feudalism, and other things like that (all in the past, of course) are not very reassuring. Founding Fathers of the USA, although declaring democracy and equality, had black slaves in their homes. Where was the equality? The next step was a humiliating law that counted a slave as 3/5 of a man in voting. Fortunately it's passed by now, but took a very long time to do so. So why don't you think that some day the Chinese would come to it? And, I was taught
here that American democracy at a closer look is not so democratic as we used to think.
What about humans rights, I am now remembering how the US is endeavouring to get things done in Iraq. And did in Vietnam, too, also using a chemical weapon
Agent Orange to kill the crops and destroy the living environment, so the Vietnamese are still experiencing its consequences. I'm also remembering how nice was to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Really, that worked out great! What human rights were they thinking about?
Sorry, M, but I learned the history of my country not by fancy books, but also with my life there (The 1917 revolution, by the way, literally overthrew the Tsar's reign and killed the entire royal family. I did not mean the Soviet disintegration - it destroyed itself). I am just considering Russian mentality. In the other thread
ezodisy alluded to Dostoevsky and others (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,8694.msg217782.html#msg217782), and you just don't know how true it is, all the Russians I know admit that's true. Have you been in Russia? Have you known the Russians that well? Then you just don't understand, that is, after all, because we are all different, the Chinese, the Germans, the Americans, the Dutch. Even between ourselves: some are melancholic, others - aggressive, submissive, lazy, energetic, etc. And we all choose our style of life.
Your are an idealist. Ah, if only we had peace and equality in the world! Come on, 37 million people in the USA live below the poverty line, many more have no medical insurance at all so can't visit a doctor. Illegal immigrants here have no rights and do not hope for bright future at all, the economy is recessing, causing people to economize on food, making them literally tighten their belts! Of course, that is not as bad as in Africa, and I support material aid, but only aid for its countries, let them decide what kind of government they want. And yes, it also concerns the Soviets and their communistic propaganda in the reluctant post-war Eastern Europe. I do not favor such kind of things.
Quote from: Sarastro on August 17, 2008, 04:09:17 PM
All those fancy words by pro-Western zealots, whose nations promoted imperialism/colonial regime, slave trading, feudalism, and other things like that (all in the past, of course) are not very reassuring. Founding Fathers of the USA, although declaring democracy and equality, had black slaves in their homes. Where was the equality? The next step was a humiliating law that counted a slave as 3/5 of a man in voting. Fortunately it's passed by now, but took a very long time to do so. So why don't you think that some day the Chinese would come to it? And, I was taught here that American democracy at a closer look is not so democratic as we used to think.
What about humans rights, I am now remembering how the US is endeavouring to get things done in Iraq. And did in Vietnam, too, also using a chemical weapon Agent Orange to kill the crops and destroy the living environment, so the Vietnamese are still experiencing its consequences. I'm also remembering how nice was to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Really, that worked out great! What human rights were they thinking about?
Next time, please actually read a post before you reply to it in so many confused words:
Quote from: M forever on August 17, 2008, 02:27:30 PM
It is true, people should not just point fingers at other places and political situations, also reflect on and, if possible, speak out about the situations in their homeland. Which I have to say Bunny has often done here when it came to discussing American politics.
...and which a lot of other people here, including myself, have done on many occasions. And not just about American politics and history. A lot of people here are highly critical of their own governments and politics, and all the dirty past and present in Western politics and history in general.
You bla-bla for several paragraphs as if there weren't lots of discussions of that nature going on here all the time. You have no basis to say that. And the nice thing is, that in most of the Western world, you can actually have these discussions openly and publically without fear of persecution.
I think all people everywhere in the world deserve to have the same basic rights. That has nothing to do with diversity of culture. And nobody said that things are just great everywhere in any part of the world. Again, people here have heated discussions about these topics all the time, so I wonder how you came up with all that nonsense.
And you really, really need to read up the history of your own country. You seem to be massively confused about the exact sequence of events there, especially when it comes to 1917. You should be embarrassed to be so badly informed about the history of your own country.
Quote from: Sarastro on August 17, 2008, 04:09:17 PM
Have you known the Russians that well? Then you just don't understand, that is, after all, because we are all different, the Chinese, the Germans, the Americans, the Dutch. Even between ourselves: some are melancholic, others - aggressive, submissive, lazy, energetic, etc. And we all choose our style of life.
So on the one hand, we are all different and we all want to choose our style of life, but on the other hand, you are saying that all Russians are just like Dostoevsky said? That means, they are not supposed to choose their style of life themselves, because they need to be dominated? Probably not. I think what that means is simply that you are really confused about these things.
BTW, you deserve some credit for being still so young, but you have used up that credit very fast, so next time, read the posts you reply to and think about your reply carefully if you don't want to disqualify yourself as a serious discussion partner.
Quote from: M forever on August 17, 2008, 05:23:49 PM
Next time, please actually read a post before you reply to it.
I just think we do not understand each other very well.
Quote from: M forever on August 17, 2008, 05:23:49 PM
So on the one hand, we are all different and we all want to choose our style of life, but on the other hand, you are saying that all Russians are just like Dostoevsky said?
I took this example to show you that people are different, so are nations. Ok, let's try something else, perhaps, the felines: breeds are different with their peculiarities. Is it clear now? And yes, most (not all) Russians are so. If you do not believe me, try at least to believe Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Goncharov, and Gorkiy.
Quote from: M forever on August 17, 2008, 05:23:49 PM
That means, they are not supposed to choose their style of life themselves, because they need to be dominated?
No. Try to read one more time.
Quote from: M forever on August 17, 2008, 05:23:49 PM
And you really, really need to read up the history of your own country. You seem to be massively confused about the exact sequence of events there, especially when it comes to 1917. You should be embarrassed to be so badly informed about the history of your own country.
What's wrong, M, specify, please. Be concrete and refer to some sources.
QuoteThe October Revolution overthrew the Russian Provisional Government and gave the power to the Soviets dominated by Bolsheviks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Revolution
Quote from: Sarastro on August 17, 2008, 02:07:44 PM
Doesn't Bunny take into account what the Chinese themselves think about it? Or Bunny just wants to seed American Democracy there? It is so typical of some people to interfere in other people's lives...to set their values and rules for others...
That is China's business if they make fake documents, let underage children perform on the Olympics, and do not keep security (it is so easy to post on the forum something like "it wouldn't have happened, if..." But it has happened, and it was an accident. No?). Let it be on their conscience, let it make them feel uncomfortable. They don't need your "sympathy" and "wishing what they deserved," they are stronger. Just recently I heard a piece of nonsense from an American lady who had returned from China. I really think she'd better take care of herself, not of "the poor Chinese." Mentalities are different, and as long as the Chinese are happy with their regime, it shouldn't bother you. When people are not satisfied with the government, they overthrow it, like it happened many times in history. It happened, too, in China, most recently: at the beginning of the 20th century, and in the middle, actually.
If the Chinese speak out that they are pissed off with the ceremony and the Olympics, that they freaked out at what their government does - then it makes sense. But according to what I've seen and heard so far (I've also Chinese friends, and they have friends back in China), they seem to be happy and proud of their China. And it is not as loathsome as you portray.
Of course, we must control each other (nuclear power, etc.), otherwise...but in reality we know nothing about this controlling and what missiles other nations have, what submarines, etc. I myself have no strong desire to interfere in other people's lives (without them asking me to) and dictate how they must live, what they deserve and what not. They know it better, I suppose.
I suggest that you think about America, where it is going now, and perhaps take some action to make life better. :D Sorry for my dumb post.
There you go again! You assume that all of the Chinese are happy with their government. Of course they will say they love their government, just as every Iraqi assured anyone who bothered to ask that they "loved" Saddam before his overthrow, and every Russian "loved" Stalin during his lifetime.
Falsified documents for athletes is actually the business of the International Olympic Committee. They are responsible for maintaining the integrity of the Olympic games. If they can't do that or are unwilling to do so for whatever reason, then they should resign. If China wants to play with the rest of the world, then China has to play by the rules. If China is going rogue and using underage athletes, then perhaps it's time the IOC demanded bone density/age studies and dental xrays to forensically determine physical age. Certainly that would be one way of keeping the games honest.
Btw, when it comes to universal medical coverage in the USA, the people who suffer the most are not those living below the poverty line. They have government funded Medicaid which ensures them care at just about any emergency room in the nation. It's the lower middle class family, usually one parent, that falls between the cracks. And if you are concerned that people in America are starving, you can relax. Starvation and malnutrition are not problems for the poor in America. To the contrary, the biggest nutritional problem for the poor in America is obesity, and I've got this from many doctors who have studied the problem.
Homelessness is a problem here now, especially with the real estate bubble bursting. However, Americans are resilient so I have confidence that we will stand together and work to alleviate this problem too. And, if you want to think of how deperately low the poverty level is here, only consider the poverty level in China or even in Russia. If you asked the average Chinese if he thinks that someone living the way the poor live in America is badly off, he will think you are crazy. To him that would be the equivalent of being middle class.
Quote from: Bunny on August 17, 2008, 09:16:58 PM
You assume that all of the Chinese are happy with their government.
Of course, I didn't. Not all of the Americans are happy with Bush... ::) But he's finishing hie eighth year in the office.
Quote from: Bunny on August 17, 2008, 09:16:58 PM
Falsified documents for athletes is actually the business of the International Olympic Committee. They are responsible for maintaining the integrity of the Olympic games. If they can't do that or are unwilling to do so for whatever reason, then they should resign. If China wants to play with the rest of the world, then China has to play by the rules. If China is going rogue and using underage athletes, then perhaps it's time the IOC demanded bone density/age studies and dental xrays to forensically determine physical age. Certainly that would be one way of keeping the games honest.
You are right, but as for me, this hodge-podge and scandals about the Olympics make the Games very unpleasant.
Quote from: Bunny on August 17, 2008, 09:16:58 PMonly consider the poverty level in Russia.
Oh, I knew the poverty level in Russia. Not as bad as you think, it has shrunk twice since the 1998 default and is still lowering. Soon it is the same as in the USA, but consider Russia's population is twice smaller.
Quote from: Bunny on August 17, 2008, 09:16:58 PM
And if you are concerned that people in America are starving, you can relax. Starvation and malnutrition are not problems for the poor in America. To the contrary, the biggest nutritional problem for the poor in America is obesity, and I've got this from many doctors who have studied the problem.
Bunny, I live in the United States, and as far as I know, obesity is often caused by cheap and unhealthy food. What causes people to buy cheap food?