GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => Topic started by: Don on September 05, 2008, 08:31:46 AM

Poll
Question: What is your preference for baroque chamber and orchestral music?
Option 1: Period Instruments votes: 25
Option 2: Modern Instruments votes: 4
Title: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: Don on September 05, 2008, 08:31:46 AM
I select period instruments - reasons later.
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: bhodges on September 05, 2008, 08:35:15 AM
Although I can be happy with either, I generally prefer period instruments these days.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: Don on September 05, 2008, 09:05:45 AM
Quote from: James on September 05, 2008, 08:50:18 AM
Same ol' tired topics... :-\

I personally don't care, whether it's played on synthesizers, saxophones, brass, electric guitar, mallets, period instruments or whatever - as long as the performance is really fresh & happening, I'm open to all possibilities.

An eclectic view.  I much prefer period strings for their more pungent/cutting tones.
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: karlhenning on September 05, 2008, 09:17:22 AM
Quote from: bhodges on September 05, 2008, 08:35:15 AM
Although I can be happy with either, I generally prefer period instruments these days.

Ditto.
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: jochanaan on September 05, 2008, 10:05:58 AM
For recordings, definitely period; we've got enough of the other type, and as beautiful as some of the older recordings are, I still revel in the period instruments' leaner sound.  But in a concert setting I'm a little more like James. :)
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: karlhenning on September 05, 2008, 10:23:24 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on September 05, 2008, 10:05:58 AM
For recordings, definitely period; we've got enough of the other type, and as beautiful as some of the older recordings are, I still revel in the period instruments' leaner sound.  But in a concert setting I'm a little more like James. :)

Separately . . .  YHM, you know  8)
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: Don on September 05, 2008, 12:12:03 PM
Quote from: James on September 05, 2008, 10:21:32 AM
Not really...

True, I was just being generous.
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: karlhenning on September 05, 2008, 12:14:54 PM
I knew that.
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on September 05, 2008, 12:42:11 PM
It all depends on the period.
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: Keemun on September 05, 2008, 01:10:42 PM
Quote from: Sforzando on September 05, 2008, 12:42:11 PM
It all depends on the period.

Read the poll question.  ;)
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 05, 2008, 01:18:13 PM
Period for Baroque, in fact, all the way through early Romantic. My passion is diminished after 1840, but I still would give a listen and possibly go with it, it just matters less. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Peter Schreier / Walter Olbertz - Bia 496 WoO 136  Lied in D "Andenken"
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: DavidW on September 05, 2008, 05:23:19 PM
I guess the question becomes uninteresting if you listen to modern music... ;D ;D
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 05, 2008, 05:33:36 PM
Quote from: DavidW on September 05, 2008, 05:23:19 PM
I guess the question becomes uninteresting if you listen to modern music... ;D ;D
Quote from: Keemun on September 05, 2008, 01:10:42 PM
Read the poll question.  ;)

No, not really. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Otetto Italiano - Octet for Oboe (2), Clarinet (2), Bassoon (2) and Horn (2) in Eb - Op. 103: 2. Andante
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: DavidW on September 05, 2008, 05:38:15 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 05, 2008, 05:33:36 PM
No, not really. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Otetto Italiano - Octet for Oboe (2), Clarinet (2), Bassoon (2) and Horn (2) in Eb - Op. 103: 2. Andante

*cough* neo-baroque *cough* 8)
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 05, 2008, 05:41:02 PM
Quote from: DavidW on September 05, 2008, 05:38:15 PM
*cough* neo-baroque *cough* 8)

I knew that's what you meant... ;D

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Otetto Italiano - Octet for Oboe (2), Clarinet (2), Bassoon (2) and Horn (2) in Eb - Op. 103: 3. Menuetto
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: DavidW on September 05, 2008, 05:49:00 PM
Well alright I admit it, I didn't read the poll.  D'oh!
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: M forever on September 05, 2008, 05:53:37 PM
Musical playing and style is the #1 criterion. If it doesn't have that, in whatever form, then it doesn't matter if it is played on "period instruments" or not. If it has that, it doesn't matter either. The instruments used and the colors produced from them are only part of the overall picture. And probably not even the most important part. It is a complete error to believe that "period instruments" automatically sound "authentic". Anyone who knows just a little bit about period performance knows that a lot of people play music from historical periods with wrong historical instruments and playing styles. At that point, it becomes simply ridiculous.
I also enjoy the vivid, strong and characterful colors many period instruments can produce, especially natural horns, "period" oboe and bassoon sounds etc, but again, the musical value of a performance is what counts.
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 05, 2008, 06:03:28 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 05, 2008, 05:53:37 PM
Musical playing and style is the #1 criterion. If it doesn't have that, in whatever form, then it doesn't matter if it is played on "period instruments" or not. If it has that, it doesn't matter either. The instruments used and the colors produced from them are only part of the overall picture. And probably not even the most important part. It is a complete error to believe that "period instruments" automatically sound "authentic". Anyone who knows just a little bit about period performance knows that a lot of people play music from historical periods with wrong historical instruments and playing styles. At that point, it becomes simply ridiculous.
I also enjoy the vivid, strong and characterful colors many period instruments can produce, especially natural horns, "period" oboe and bassoon sounds etc, but again, the musical value of a performance is what counts.

Completely agree. Which is why I, for one, very carefully avoided any mention of "authenticity". It is precisely the sound that I prefer. I have lots of recordings of "old" music on "new" instruments, and enjoy a great many of them. But if all other things are equal, then the colors will tip the scale for me every time. :)

8)
----------------
Listening to:
Otetto Italiano - Sextet for Clarinet (2), Bassoon (2), Horn (2) in Eb - Op. 71: 1. Adagio - Allegro
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: karlhenning on September 06, 2008, 11:38:55 AM
Quote from: DavidW on September 05, 2008, 05:49:00 PM
Well alright I admit it, I didn't read the poll.  D'oh!

Spoken like a gentleman! (Apart from the barbaric "d'oh," I mean)  8)
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: knight66 on September 06, 2008, 12:10:56 PM
Quote from: bhodges on September 05, 2008, 08:35:15 AM
Although I can be happy with either, I generally prefer period instruments these days.

--Bruce

That speaks for me too.

Mike
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: jochanaan on September 06, 2008, 05:42:36 PM
Quote from: M forever on September 05, 2008, 05:53:37 PM
Musical playing and style is the #1 criterion. If it doesn't have that, in whatever form, then it doesn't matter if it is played on "period instruments" or not...
Very much agree.  This was also the point of Celibidache's remark that "you can have false phrasing on gut strings too." :o
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: Mark on September 07, 2008, 04:14:59 AM
Where's the option for, 'Whatever's in the best interests of the music'?
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: Moldyoldie on September 07, 2008, 04:16:03 AM
Generally, I prefer period instruments for Baroque music; but as has been stated, the manner of playing makes a world of difference.  Also, sour intonation as inherently heard with many period instruments, especially on adagios, is a real turn-off! :P
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: Don on September 07, 2008, 07:20:41 AM
Quote from: Mark on September 07, 2008, 04:14:59 AM
Where's the option for, 'Whatever's in the best interests of the music'?

There is none.  If you want it, you'll have to start your own poll.
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: Don on September 07, 2008, 07:21:40 AM
Quote from: moldyoldie on September 07, 2008, 04:16:03 AM
Generally, I prefer period instruments for Baroque music; but as has been stated, the manner of playing makes a world of difference.  Also, sour intonation as inherently heard with many period instruments, especially on adagios, is a real turn-off! :P

On the contrary, I often find that modern strings sound sour in baroque music.
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: scarpia on September 07, 2008, 08:57:26 AM

Depends, with music which is relatively abstract, such as The Art of the Fugue, The Well Tempered Klavier, I prefer arrangements for modern instruments or performance on a modern keyboard instrument, mainly because of my aversion to the sound of the harpsichord.  For orchestral music which depends on the colors of the orchestra I prefer original instrument performance.  The reason for this preference is that I think that skilled composers wrote these pieces to take advantage of the sonorities that they were familiar with, and that balances get distorted when transferred to a modern orchestra.  This opinion is probably facilitated by the fact that I mostly hear this music in recordings.  In a concert hall, I suspect an original instrument ensemble would be underwhelming.
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: Mark on September 07, 2008, 09:30:22 AM
Quote from: Don on September 07, 2008, 07:20:41 AM
There is none.  If you want it, you'll have to start your own poll.

Then I don't get it. ???

Surely, many of us like period instruments in some instances, and modern ones in others. So how can anyone (apart from Rod Corkin, perhaps) vote so decisively in this poll?
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 07, 2008, 09:45:42 AM
Quote from: Mark on September 07, 2008, 09:30:22 AM
Then I don't get it. ???

Surely, many of us like period instruments in some instances, and modern ones in others. So how can anyone (apart from Rod Corkin, perhaps) vote so decisively in this poll?

I had no problem with it. The question is clear: for Baroque music, do you prefer period or modern instrument? Since there is no instance (aside from crappy playing, which isn't part of the question) where I prefer modern instruments, the answer was simplicity itself. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Royal Concertgebouworkest \ Jochum - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt - Presto - Allegro assai
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: Mark on September 07, 2008, 09:55:32 AM
Like DavidW, I didn't read the poll question properly. :-[ (Sorry, Don.)

I'm going to say 'Period'. Especially harpsichord for Bach keyboard works.
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: Superhorn on September 15, 2008, 12:07:25 PM
     I  used  to  dislike  period  instruments,  but  have  grown  much  more  tolerant  of  them.
Many  just sound  better  than  the  earlier  recordings  and  performances, and  even  sound  more
like  modern  instruments. 
    The  gut  strings  have  often  sounded  awful ;   a  nasal, pinched  wheezing  sound.
   But  I  still  enjoy  modern  instrument  performances,  and  it's  actually  refreshing  to  hear   the  recordings  by  Marriner  and  Leppard   etc  again. 
    But  the  movement  has  gone  way  too  far.  Do  we  really  need "authentic" Wagner,  Brahms,
and Mahler? And how  authentic  are  they  actually?
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: eyeresist on September 15, 2008, 03:32:14 PM
Your formatting looks weird.
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: greg on September 15, 2008, 04:07:16 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 15, 2008, 03:32:14 PM
Your formatting looks weird.

the way you said that made me burst out laughing  ;D
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: Bulldog on September 16, 2008, 09:27:51 AM
Quote from: Superhorn on September 15, 2008, 12:07:25 PM
     I  used  to  dislike  period  instruments,  but  have  grown  much  more  tolerant  of  them.
Many  just sound  better  than  the  earlier  recordings  and  performances, and  even  sound  more
like  modern  instruments. 

I can't say I would want period instruments to sound more like modern ones.  For me, this type of merging effect tends to negate the distinctive nature of period instruments.

BTW, my username is not an indication of how I will conduct myself.  It's just the description of the next dog I intend to adopt soon.
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: Lethevich on September 16, 2008, 09:40:42 AM
(As I am replying to this thread, I may as well give an opinion, not that mine means much at all) HIP neatly coincides with the type of performance I like - speedy and with nice transparency. Fortunately many non HIP performances also fulfil this criteria as well. I have a faint perference for HIP over non HIP if both performances in question are of the same quality, due to a preference in hearing the works with smaller forces.

Quote from: Bulldog on September 16, 2008, 09:27:51 AM
BTW, my username is not an indication of how I will conduct myself.  It's just the description of the next dog I intend to adopt soon.

I hope that it won't have the breathing problems that seem to be common in that breed nowadays :(
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: karlhenning on September 16, 2008, 10:08:53 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on September 16, 2008, 09:27:51 AM
BTW, my username is not an indication of how I will conduct myself.  It's just the description of the next dog I intend to adopt soon.

It was our high school mascot.
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: Bulldog on September 16, 2008, 10:09:48 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 16, 2008, 10:08:53 AM
It was our high school mascot.

And an excellent choice, especially for contact sports.
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: karlhenning on September 16, 2008, 10:10:21 AM
Quote from: Lethe on September 16, 2008, 09:40:42 AM
(As I am replying to this thread, I may as well give an opinion, not that mine means much at all) HIP neatly coincides with the type of performance I like - speedy and with nice transparency.

Hey, I think your opinion counts.

Especially as I agree on light-footedness and transparency as virtues . . . .
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: Keemun on September 16, 2008, 11:45:43 AM
I prefer period instruments for most Baroque music.  The one exception I've found so far is Bach's Cello Suites.  Having listened to good performances on period and modern cellos, I definitely prefer the sound of the modern cello for these works. 

Quote from: karlhenning on September 16, 2008, 10:08:53 AM
It was our high school mascot.

Mine too.  :o
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: BachQ on September 16, 2008, 11:51:02 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on September 16, 2008, 09:27:51 AM
BTW, my username is not an indication of how I will conduct myself.  It's just the description of the next dog I intend to adopt soon.

We're curious as to what you'll name your new bulldog.
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: Bulldog on September 16, 2008, 01:00:09 PM
Quote from: Dm on September 16, 2008, 11:51:02 AM
We're curious as to what you'll name your new bulldog.

Max is the name we're currently aligned with; if a female, I like Maxine.  My wife doesn't though; that's her mom's name.
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: knight66 on September 20, 2008, 02:31:07 AM
I voted for the period instruments; Bach keyboard music would be an exception, as I prefer most of it on piano, (though not the organ music obviously).

I remember listening to the Norrington version of Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique; the sound of the orig. instruments gave a completely different colour to the music and although I treasure my modern instruments versions, I often spin the Norrington.

Mike
Title: Re: Period or Modern Instruments
Post by: jochanaan on September 20, 2008, 06:43:07 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 16, 2008, 10:08:53 AM
It was our high school mascot.
And mine. :)

If you want a period-instrument version of Wagner or Mahler or other late Romantic composers, one major orchestra fits the bill, or so I understand, since the design of its instruments hasn't changed for a hundred years or so.  I've seen them in television broadcasts, and their woodwinds and brass look very different from those I'm used to.  The orchestra: the Vienna Philharmonic. ;D