Many of the most famous conductors were also notable composers too, some more successful than others. To keep it easier, let's start with the era of one of the most famous and beloved - Gustav Mahler. Since him, who has also been especially talented as a composer, and what are some of their best works? And for the not-as-good ones, what were their best efforts?
First comes to mind Bernstein and Boulez, though I don't know Boulez's works. Two others that come to mind are Andre Previn and Esa-Pekka Salonen.
For the ones I know, I would say:
Bernstein:
I at least like, or love, most of his work. Rhythm and melody the two things he really excelled at. A Quiet Place, eh, not so much.
Previn:
I don't know his concert work, but I like his film scores. Very good.
Salonen:
Pre-1992, avantgarde and not terribly complex but can be fun. After 1992, and especially 1996, brilliant - fresh, colorful, virtuosic, and keeps getting better. A big fav for me of current guys writing.
Some I have no acquaintance with but am curious about are, Maazel, Sinopoli, Martinon, Markevitch, Furtwangler, and somewhere I read Robert Spano. And I know I'm forgetting so many others!
It seems in Poland many of the top shelf conductors are composers as well. Jan Krenz (everything I've heard by him is pretty good), Henryk Czyz (same here, though much less "modern" style), Jerzy Maksymiuk (haven't heard anything), Boguslaw Madey (decent), Stanislaw Skrowaczewski (not very good). Of course, there are many exceptions (Wislocki, Wicherek, Rowicki, Wit, Kord).
Composers who conduct are even more common but they usually don't do it all that often. Aleksander Lason has been doing quite a lot of conducting lately - mostly contemporary stuff. He's really quite good!
I've never heard anything by Sinopoli but know at least one book where he's called one of the greatest composers of the 20th century!
Maciek
BIS used to offer several of the hairy symphonic musings of Leif Segerstam. In the middle 1990's he was up to Symphony #16 or #17: who knows how many he has now?
(http://www.promusica-hannover.de/media/redaktionell/2006_2007/Segerstam2_Heikki_Tuuli.jpg)
Quote from: Cato on May 16, 2007, 02:44:22 PM
BIS used to offer several of the hairy symphonic musings of Leif Segerstam. In the middle 1990's he was up to Symphony #16 or #17: who knows how many he has now?
(http://www.promusica-hannover.de/media/redaktionell/2006_2007/Segerstam2_Heikki_Tuuli.jpg)
According to Wikipedia, 180.
Quote from: Cato on May 16, 2007, 02:44:22 PM
BIS used to offer several of the hairy symphonic musings of Leif Segerstam. In the middle 1990's he was up to Symphony #16 or #17: who knows how many he has now?
(http://www.promusica-hannover.de/media/redaktionell/2006_2007/Segerstam2_Heikki_Tuuli.jpg)
He conducted world premiere of his 130th Symphony here in Belgrade about a year ago.
His oeuvre according to Wiki:
180 Symphonies (updated: April 10th, 2007)
30 String quartets
11 Violin concertos
8 Cello concertos
Quote from: Greta on May 16, 2007, 02:00:07 PM
Some I have no acquaintance with but am curious about are, Maazel, Sinopoli, Martinon, Markevitch, Furtwangler, and somewhere I read Robert Spano. And I know I'm forgetting so many others!
Markevitch was really promising composer, quite a shame that he quit. This disc would give you nice intro into his sound world.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PWB8Z88HL._AA240_.jpg)
On the other hand I didn't like at all what I heard of Furtwangler.
R. Strauss
Berlioz
Aside from Bernstein's scores (The 3 meditations from Mass for cello and orch, the first Symphony and the Clarinet Sonata) I am enamoured with many of Previn's works.
This CD contains two superb works, the cello Sonata and the four songs for soprano, cello and piano (which are as gorgeous as they sound). The performances are absolutely top notch, Previn a superb pianist, Ma absolutely perfectly suited to this sound world, and Sylvia McNair providing absolutely ravishing vocals.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51QUil58fjL._SS500_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/Previn-Ordinary-Things-Remembrances-Vocalise/dp/B0000029NW/ref=sr_1_6/002-0464639-0016022?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1179360021&sr=8-6
Describing his style is a little tricky. Most obviously one might say that his work sounds like early Shostakovich (Piano quintet or cello Sonata) or perhaps late Hindemith (his more sensuous romantic phase - for instance the Four Temperaments). But first and foremost the most obvious influence is Jazz, but it is so intellgiently and beautifully executed that it never sounds pretentious (i.e. Jazz dressed up as classical). He has his own voice, romantic, emotional, by turns beautiful, pained and humerous, unconcerned with fashions, tonaly/modaly based with many jazz harmonies. Great rhythmic impetus also in many of the works. The two I mentioned above are both superb and amongst my favourite contemporary compositions (both date from the early-mid 90s).
The Violin Concerto is a bit of an unwieldy behemoth; though it contains much nice music, it doesn't quite hang together - its just too long.
So much great stuff in here! I very much admire Previn as a musician and it sounds like I would like his concert work, I love The Four Temperaments.
For Segerstam, what of his is recommendable?
I remember hearing Segerstam's Sym. #13 and #16 some years ago, and was not really impressed: craggy, "neo-Nordic" so to speak, but they seemed like much adoo-doo about nothing. Not in the same league as e.g. Saariaho in inventiveness.
But maybe he got better with Sym. #119! :o
For samples of Igor Markevitch, see:
http://www.boosey.com/pages/cr/catalogue/cat_results.asp?composerid=2789&stype=1
Listening to the songs today - they are quite a lot more saccharine than either of the two composers I mentioned, or rather more consistently aiming for beauty in a conventional sense. The Songs are like Barber's actually but with alot of Jazz.
Quote from: Drasko on May 16, 2007, 03:04:44 PM
His oeuvre according to Wiki:
180 Symphonies (updated: April 10th, 2007)
Although he looks like Brahms, he's more like Haydn. ;D
Forgot to mention recordings.
The Polish Radio has been releasing a series called "Dyrygenci polscy" (Polish Conductors) for quite a while - these are usually 2 CDs with a large part of the second one dedicated to the conductor as composer (where applicable).
Henryk Czyż:
(http://www.merlin.com.pl/images_product/18/PRCD065-2.jpg) (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,474286.html)
(this has his Symphonic Variations on a folk song, Concertino for piano and orchestra, and Serenade for string orchestra; two glaring omissions are his Etude for orchestra and Canzona di barocco - neither has been released on CD, I'm afraid)
Bogusław Madey:
(http://www.merlin.com.pl/images_product/27/PRCD12728-2.jpg) (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,383101.html)
(two of his pieces here: Transfigurations for voice and orchestra, and Metamorphoses - Variations on a theme of Paganini; both are interesting pieces but somehow I never got into them)
Stanisław Skrowaczewski:
(http://www.merlin.com.pl/images_product/26/PRCD198.jpg) (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,345223.html)
(this has his Concerto for Orchestra - but I've seen more recordings of his works, both on amazon and eBay)
Jerzy Maksymiuk:
(http://www.merlin.com.pl/images/25/PRCD147-8.jpg) (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,314740.html)
(this one I don't have but it contains his Arbor vitae and Intermezzo pastorale)
There's another one (and another one I don't have :():
(http://www.merlin.com.pl/images_product/29/MTJCD12054.jpg) (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,396383.html)
(Jerzy Maksymiuk - The Auschwitz Oratorio)
And then there's the Jan Krenz album. Couldn't find a picture in any of the internet shops, so I'm uploading one I stole from an auction site. It contains his Symphony No. 1, Rhapsody, and Sinfonietta per fiati.
Mahler and R Strauss were both famous conductors. They wrote a few musical works that are worth hearing. :)
Daniel Sternefeld
Daniel STERNEFELD was born in Antwerp on 27 November 1905. His early musical training was at the Royal Conservatory of Flanders in Antwerp, taking private lessons with Renaat Veremans and Paul Gilson.
He then studied conducting with Frank van der Stucken, completing his studies at the Mozarteum in Salzburg with Bernard Paumgartner, Clemens Krauss and Herbert von Karajan. In 1938 he was appointed principal conductor of the Royal Flemish Opera, which he left in 1948 for the Belgian Radio Symphony Orchestra in Brussels, serving initially as associate conductor, and then from 1957 to 1970, as principal conductor, in addition to his work with many foreign orchestras.
In his writing a clear evolution can be traced from the high Romantic tradition, by way of the chromaticism of Wagner and the sonority of Mahler and Richard Strauss to a measured lyric expressionism. Daniel Sternefeld died in Ukkel on 2nd June 1986.
[Alice Chini-Sternefeld, © CeBeDeM]
Two large scale symphonies - the first one is a "typical" WW2 work - that evolves from a dark, dramatic first movement full of contrast to an almost "optimistic" finale. As a conductor Sternefeld knows the orchestra well - it sounds "good", professional, the instruments shine.
For those who like Honegger, Richard Strauss, early Stravinsky & Mahler...
The second symphony ( an hommage to Bruegel) is very virtuosic - almost a concerto for orchestra. slightly more modern sounding than nr. 1.the movements are titled after Bruegel paintings.
Sternefeld excelled in orchestration. Salve Antwerpia - 1979 and Zang en dans aan het hof van Maria Van Bourgondië - 1976 (Songs and dances at the court of Mary of Burgundy) are brillant suites on old melodies - not unlike Respighi's Arie e Danze .
Other Flemish conductor/composers are (were) Arthur Meulemans and Frits Celis (1929)- who worked at the Flemish Opera/Antwerp.
Pierre Bartholomée,who conducted the Liège Philharmonic for many years ,is a respected composer.
Britten :P
Not a notable composer, but Klemperer composed a bit, and it wasn't that great.
I don't know if this has been done before(and if it has, I apologise).
Thought I would compile a list of conductors who are known to have composed music seriously during their adult lives and careers.
There is an obvious 'A' List of conductors who were/are equally famous as composers-
Leonard Bernstein and Pierre Boulez are modern examples.
In their time one would have to consider the cases of Gustav Mahler and Richard Strauss-two famous composers but recognised as very considerable conductors. Mahler's work at the Vienna State Opera(1897-1907) and in New York(1908) is fairly well recognised. Strauss, however, was one of the leading conductors of his day. He succeeded von Bulow at the Berlin Philharmonic in 1894 at the age of 30, he directed the Berlin Opera(1898-1918), the Vienna State Opera(1919-24) and the Leipzig Gewandhaus(1933).
There are another couple of conductors who might just qualify-
Felix Weingartner, one of the greatest conductors of the period from 1885-1940, who composed seven symphonies and ten operas and who certainly considered his work as a composer as equal to his achievements as a conductor.
Howard Hanson was the founder and longtime conductor of the Eastman Rochester Symphony Orchestra in New York State.
The 'B' list would include conductors who regarded their compositions as more important than their conducting but found that few people necessarily agreed with them(Furtwangler is the obvious example)-
Bruno Walter(two early symphonies)
Otto Klemperer(two acknowledged symphonies but apparently six in total, a Mass and two operas)
Wilhelm Furtwangler(three symphonies and a Te Deum)
Paul Paray(two symphonies and a Mass)
Victor de Sabata(two operas and a number of tone poems)
Sir Eugene Goossens(two symphonies)
Dmitri Mitropoulos(an early opera)
Paul Kletzki(three symphonies; stopped composing in 1942)
Antal Dorati(two symphonies, concertos, an opera, a cantata and a wide range of other music)
Jean Martinon(four symphonies and several concertos)
Gunther Wand(ballet music and a cantata)
Igor Markevitch(a remarkable number of compositions produced between the ages of 16 and 30 but then switched over completely to
conducting)
Rafael Kubelik(three symphonies, three Requiems, operas)
Stanislaw Skrowaczewski(who continues to compose, including a recent Concerto for Orchestra)
Evgeny Svetlanov(a symphony, a piano concerto, a cantata and several tone poems)
Andre Previn(concertos and film music)
Lorin Maazel(an opera and concertante works)
Jose Serebrier(a wide range of music including three symphonies)
Leif Segerstam(189 symphonies, 11 violin concertos, 8 cello concertos, 4 piano concertos, and 30 string quartets; presumably he
occasionally sleeps?)
Giuseppe Sinopoli(an opera and serial and electronic music)
Esa-Pekka Salonen(a growing body of compositions including a recent Piano Concerto)
There may be others!
A reasonable quantity of the works of these conductor/composers is available on disc-
the symphonies of Klemperer, Furtwangler, Goossens, Dorati for example.
I would like to hear the Martinon and Kubelik symphonies.
The question of how derivative the compositions of composers who were principally engaged in conducting the music of other composers is one which others might care to make comment.
There seems no hard and fast rule here, though it's perhaps hardly surprising if success in one field leads to reduced success in another field. (See not only the many conductors who quit composing when they found one talent far overtaking the other, but also--in the case of a man truly gifted in both arts--the precipitous drop in Boulez's compositional output since his conducting career took off.)
A couple of other post-war composers seem to have been fine conductors: Lutoslawski mostly conducted his own music, but I have heard fine recordings of him conducting works by his contemporaries as well. Bruno Maderna (a man whose importance as a mentor to many of the Darmstadt modernists is often underestimated) was also a conductor of some note, with an extremely broad repertoire.
There is also Peter Eötvös who is a great conductor in contemporary repertoire, but I have not yet heard any of his compositions.
This topic has been done before. http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,932.0.html
But it is an interesting one.
Martinon's second symphony has been available on a long defunct LP :
"Hymne à la vie" (it has a prominent part for ondes Martenot). Possibly it is available now in a "Chicago Symphony archives" box ????
Martinon's symphony nr 4 "Altitudes" was premiered by the Chicago orchestra. AFAIK, the LP has never been re-issued on CD.
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 25, 2007, 03:47:36 PM
The question of how derivative the compositions of composers who were principally engaged in conducting the music of other composers is one which others might care to make comment.
That question is actually fairly irrelevant and can't be discussed in such a general way either. Obviously, most musicians who are interested in composing study the works of other composers in one way or another, by analyzing the scores and maybe also by performing them as conductors, pianists, or whatever their musical performance talents are. It's not as if musicians who don't conduct don't get to know other composers' music. More or less all new music is in some way or ways derived from music that has been written before. Studying composition techniques and compositions thoroughly is part of the education of any serious musician. It is actually not at all that difficult to paste together some pieces once you have learnt some theory and composition techniques. It is not any more difficult than writing a text. The question is, how relevant or interesting or "original" those compositions then are. In other words, what it takes to write good music may or may not be some measure of "genius", whatever that is, but most importantly, what it takes is self-criticism. Lacking self-criticism, it is very easy to write a lot of music. All the more so in the field of "contemporary" music because you can concoct whatever you like and call it "new".
That people like Mahler and Strauss were also very good conductors shouldn't be a surprise at all. Conducting is not a musical discipline as such. It takes some specific talents, like the ability to communicate and express musical parameters in gestures, but basically, conducting is something which comes out of being a good musician with a deeper understanding of musical context. It is not a discipline in itself, like playing an instrument or singing. In Mahler's time, there weren't even classes for conductors. They just studied music, playing the piano, theory, composition, arranging, being a "Kapellmeister" was simply something they then did to pay the rent, if they didn't work as performing musicians playing an instrument, or teaching or working in some other capacity.
The negatively laden term "Kapellmeistermusik" which has been used by contemporary critics against composers like Mahler refers to the fact that the Kapellmeister was supposed to be able to arrange music and maybe compose small pieces for given occasions, such as to accompany a play, or arrange music for ballets or write arrangements of pieces for the reduced forces of provincial theaters. Some critics thought that Mahler's musc was just such a copy and paste job, not really original music. Obviously, time has proven them wrong.
There isn't really much to being a composer if you just copy and paste stuff together or write shallow pieces following whatever set of composition rules. Just like there isn't much to being a conductor when you just pose in front of an orchestra which can autopilot through most pieces anyway. So the fact alone that somebody "composes" or "conducts" means next to nothing. What counts is the quality of he composing and conducting, and that is far more elusive and hard to evaluate than other musical disciplines, like playing an instrument or singing.
That said, I think that people who study composition seriously and at least try to write some music, however "great" it is or not, can gain very important insights into the inner structures of the music otherpeople wrote, and they can be more insightful interpreters. The same goes for performing musicians who play an instrument really well, the experience they gain from actually playing other peoples' compositions and playing together with other musicians is invaluable for becoming a good conductor.
Quote from: pjme on December 26, 2007, 01:50:59 AM
Martinon's second symphony has been available on a long defunct LP :
"Hymne à la vie" (it has a prominent part for ondes Martenot). Possibly it is available now in a "Chicago Symphony archives" box ????
I've got this LP:, and it is a superb piece IIRC that ought to be available on CD.
In addition to the symphonies, Eugene Goossens also wrote a very fine oboe concerto.
Benjamin Britten was also a very fine conductor who led recordings of all his major works for orchestra and an exemplary (for the time) one of Bach's Brandenburg Concertos. I'm not sure his own recording of the War Requiem has ever been surpassed. :D
Stravinsky led recordings of most of his major works, but their sound and playing are less than ideal; I don't think he was a good an orchestra leader as Britten.
But Howard Hanson was, and his recordings of his own music are just wonderful--especially since most of them were recorded on Mercury "Living Presence." :)
Actually, I think we're getting off on the opposite of what the topic is here, but yes, there is certainly something interesting that is added when a composer
can conduct his own works well, and there are many composers that can, and do so without much fanfare, so aren't talked about that much.
My absolute favorite recording of John Adams'
Harmonielehre is his own performance from the 2006 Proms, there is so much in there that I wanted to hear brought out before, but just wasn't quite - it's also a good deal slower than some of the well-known recordings. It opened up a lot more in that piece for me. And Adams conducts other music capably as well as his own, he even did a disc of Takemitsu music. Thomas Ades is a younger example that seems to do nicely with other rep besides his own.
Penderecki I know conducts his own music often, and of course, most of the earlier composers conducted their own music, I know I would have loved to have heard Sibelius' own interpretations of his symphonies! For some reason, composers' own interpretations can tend to be quick though, or at least in the past have been, one notable example being Holst's incredibly fast 1920s Planets recordings.
Why is it more rare though these days, the conductor/composer? That's what we should ask.
Why have these become two separate tasks, when they used to be so synonymous? More and more conductors have become micro-managed, 9in some cases out of what would have been a more active composing career, and seized upon by management, the limelight position quickly takes over the more sedate one that involves so much work being done in solitude. They are two
extremely different animals. And once this happens, it can be hard to ever strike a balance again. Bernstein certainly struggled with this.
Also, there has become some suspicion of the compositions of those who do become well known as conductors. Whiffs of derision such as
"Kapellmeistermusik" are bandied about, and it can be hard for this group to be taken seriously on both sides of the coin. This is unfortunate, because obviously conducting an orchestra day in and out can be an enormous boon to a composer, and you can see evidence of this orchestrationally in some conductors' compositions.
Composers, likewise however, would do well to be sure they have had ensemble playing experience, and should try to conduct their own pieces sometimes, what great practice to work out the technical problems on a firsthand basis - the removal of the composer off to the ivory-tower and his piano (ahem, or computer), away from the orchestra, can become a problem in modern music. I'm sure those who are musicians around here have encountered before new music that just doesn't make sense on the instrument, and is fundamentally not well-written, that's never a fun situation.
Quote from: DundonnellThe question of how derivative the compositions of composers who were principally engaged in conducting the music of other composers is one which others might care to make comment.
This definitely pops up. Maybe not necessarily derivative per se, but influences worn very much on the sleeve. No composer, conductor or no, exists in a vacuum though, and influences are certainly not a bad thing! What the composer does
with these influences is the important thing, if it is just cut-and-paste, that does not a strong composition make - but if (s)he
synthesizes these influences to create a distinctive voice, then we may have something interesting.
It can be fascinating to look into the compositions of this crowd named above, and I would like to do so even more, but some of those recordings can be difficult to find. And I must say, with with a catalog like Leif Segerstam's....where do you start? ;D
Looking at that list, it's striking what eminent names are up there, evidence the two activities fuel each other? Perhaps! A very interesting subject Dundonnell...thanks for bringing it up.
As Greta says, we do seem to be moving away from the subject of the thread. I did intend a second thread on "the composer as conductor" focusing on those composers who were supreme interpreters of their own music or-in a few rare cases-other composers' music.
This thread was intended to focus on those musicians who achieved a reputation primarily as conductors but who composed music throughout their lives, sought to have that music performed in public and (in a number of cases) wished to recognised as composers just as much, if not more so, than as conductors.
Many of the extremely interesting points about composer/conductors will re-surface in the second thread.
Let's steer back to the original subject of the thread - conductors, who primarily consider(ed) themselves as composers right? Are we discussing the general topic, or particular works? :)
The further back in history ones that you mentioned I would like to know more about myself, I do know Furtwangler very much wished to be recognized as a composer though...
Previn and Bernstein have a similarity in that they were both very noted young pianists and compositionally made it big with the films/musicals they worked on, and the conducting happened along with that. (Obviously to a more stunning degree in Bernstein's case.) I would like to get to know Previn's concert work more, what I have heard I liked a lot, and his musicals are very good.
Bernstein, I know from reading the Burton biography that he always felt guilty about not composing more and letting that fall by the wayside because of the conducting, it was really on his mind a lot apparently. Some of his works I really like, I love West Side Story, Chichester Psalms, I like the Violin Concerto, the Symphonies less so, but I think he did have a distinctive voice. He had an interesting arc to Mahler there, Bernstein of course identified with him on many levels, and the shared influence that their Jewish heritage had was a certainly a big part of that. I would say Bernstein's music did show influence by American composers of the same generation, who he did conduct and promote a lot.
A similarity also exists in the cases of Boulez, Sinopoli, and Salonen. All composers first, whose conducting careers seem to have grown out of the composing, each being early in their careers a founder and resident conductor of avant-garde ensembles in their respective home countries. Boulez has always been equally active in both sides, though also found it necessary to cut down on conducting at some point, which Salonen is trying to do now, hence the uptake in recent compositions. It is a real shame Sinopoli died so young as he would have continued I'm sure to be very active on both sides - I have never heard any of his compositions, but I have read that his opera Lou Salome is somehow in the vein of Berg's Lulu. (BTW, you forgot to mention Bruno Maderna, who Sinopoli studied with and who made some interesting recordings as a conductor I have often heard read about, ie, Mahler)
I really would like to hear the Martinon, Kubelik and Dorati works, and was curious about Maazel's opera. (Is it called 1984?) I know it is supposed to be a stinker, and I'm curious what that sounded like. (Here is a review.) (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/05/arts/music/05maaz.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1)
The two suites from Sinopoli's opera "Lou Salomé" (which include orchestral and vocal excerpts) can be downloaded here:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yuq7m7
This is the DG recording with the composer himself conducting the RSO Stuttgart. Dunno if it's OK to post that here, it is out of print, if not, then the moderators can simply remove the link.
Evgeny Svetlanov, one of the best known Soviet conductors, was also a rather prolific composer who wrote orchestral music, piano and chamber works and songs. His style was decidely conservative, some of the pieces sound a lot like the kind of "musical realism" Soviet authorities preferred to the more modernist compositions of other musicians, or the tormented and sarcastic musical language of Shostakovich. But Svetlanov's symphony is quite nice, rather Russian in character, I guess, with some nice melodic ideas and a solid grip on composition techniques. The first movement can be downloaded here, in a live recording with the Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France conducted by Svetlanov himself:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yp2gyg
Quote from: M forever on December 28, 2007, 09:43:22 AM
The two suites from Sinopoli's opera "Lou Salomé"......
Thank you.
I recall an RCA record from the late '60's or early '70's with Jean Martinon's symphonies and they were great! Yes, why are they in the underground vault when a mediocrity like Grofe has his hackwork everywhere?!!
Maazel's opera on 1984 was recently mentioned in the Wall Street Journal in a criticism of his North Korea concert, i.e. the irony of someone composing an opera on a work which criticizes the system of that country, yet he seemingly is kowtowing to that system.
Whether the opera is a turkey was not mentioned! 8)
There was an RCA CD of Maazel conducting the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra in his three compositions rather uninvitingly entitled Music for Cello and Orchestra, Op.10, Music for Flute and Orchestra, Op.11 and Music for Violin and Orchestra, Op.12.
Maazel himself was the violin soloist but the other works featured Mstislav Rostropovich and James Galway respectively.
I haven't heard the CD so cannot comment on the quality of these works. He certainly got two stellar soloists for the disc!
There are actually some very cheap used copies of that on amazon, so I ordered one. Might be interesting.
Quote from: Greta on December 27, 2007, 11:27:51 PM
Why is it more rare though these days, the conductor/composer?
Depends on where you're standin', I guess. It looks to me like the conductor/composer or composer/conductor thing is going along very nicely, in fact, maybe even more frequently than in the past. Certainly not more rare, except maybe in the "classical music as big business" arena.
Any road, Dumitrescu conducts his own works, and those of others. (I heard him direct an ensemble in a performance of Cage's Fontana Mix that was incredibly exciting.)
Ana-Maria Avram
Tim Hodgkinson
Gerard Pape
Hans Zender
Michael Gielen
Harvey Sollberger
Jose Serebrier
Gerhard Mueller-Hornbach
Beat Furrer
Udo Zimmerman
Lucky Mosko
Some are better known as conductors, some as composers. Some of the composer/conductors do only their own works. Some do other people's works as well.
I'd say that the whole conductor/composer area is pretty well covered, and pretty well as it's always been.
Quote from: some guy on December 31, 2007, 02:14:13 PM
I'd say that the whole conductor/composer area is pretty well covered, and pretty well as it's always been.
Probably true. After all, not every conductor in the old days was a Richard Strauss or Gustav Mahler either. Most were "just" conductors, just like today. Some of them maybe composed a little, too, but we don't remember their works anymore. Just like it will be with a lot of today's composers, conductors or not.
Quote from: some guy on December 31, 2007, 02:14:13 PM
Harvey Sollberger
Harvey used to be MD of the orchestra I play in, the La Jolla Symphony at UCSD. Are you floating around somewhere there as well? Your pic looks a little like the Sun God on the uCSD campus, but not quite.
M, floating is not something one does much in Southern California. Except in swimming pools. And the ocean. And maybe some lakes.
OK, floating IS something one can do in Southern California, a lot. But no, I'm doing all my floating in Portland, OR right now.
Oh, it's fun!!
And the picture is from somewhere else than San Diego. It's been guessed before, on another forum, so I won't spoil anyone's fun. If anyone finds guessing to be fun, that is.
Most of the people on my list, by the way, are pretty memorable! I remembered them, anyway. (I didn't have to look them up. Well, maybe one of them....)
Quote from: some guy on January 02, 2008, 11:27:52 AM
And the picture is from somewhere else than San Diego. It's been guessed before, on another forum, so I won't spoil anyone's fun. If anyone finds guessing to be fun, that is.
Paris?
Paris it is. That's one of the sculptures in the Stravinsky fountain at the Pompidou Centre.
(Part of a long story: I moved back to the U.S. after a short stay in Paris--hope to get back, soon--and was showing pictures to my kids. When I got to the shots of the Stravinsky fountain, my youngest, then 19, said "Why would you ever move away from a place that has stuff like this?" When we all visited there in November 2006, I took them to the fountain via a circuitous route. When we turned the corner and there it was, Joe said "Hey, dad! That's that place in your pictures!!!" Tee hee.)
I didn't really guess though, I googled 0:)
Nikolai Golovanov is another russian conductor who composed. He supposedly wrote two operas and some symphonies but I never heard any, don't know whether anything has been recorded. Only thing I have are some religious hymns for unaccompanied chorus, it's his op.1 so can't be sure how representative it is of his later works but here is one:
http://www.mediafire.com/?1lsuuekdxcm (http://www.mediafire.com/?1lsuuekdxcm)
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 29, 2007, 07:04:12 AM
There was an RCA CD of Maazel conducting the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra in his three compositions rather uninvitingly entitled Music for Cello and Orchestra, Op.10, Music for Flute and Orchestra, Op.11 and Music for Violin and Orchestra, Op.12.
Maazel himself was the violin soloist but the other works featured Mstislav Rostropovich and James Galway respectively.
I haven't heard the CD so cannot comment on the quality of these works. He certainly got two stellar soloists for the disc!
Dundonell - I really enjoy the cello work on this CD - a tad diffuse perhaps but there's lots of very engaging and original ideas, not least the brilliant "limbo" movement - just one single chord held for several music with tiny spots of light from single instruments in the Orchestra and the soloist. I haven't listened to the other pieces for ages. He also more recently composed a piece called The Giving Tree for cello obligato, speaker and orchestra which I am less keen on, but is still a nice work.
I bought that Maazel disc really cheap but I actually don't remember if I listened to it or not :D That was around the time I moved, so I may not have had time for that. Or maybe I did - I do remember getting it in the mail - and totally forgot the music!!!
CPO-the company that is currently issuing a set of the symphonies of Felix Weingartner-has plans to follow this with (at least) Bruno Walter's 1st Symphony.
Walter was a superb conductor but he gave up composition while still a young man(unlike Weingartner or Furtwangler). I wonder if he made the correct decision? ;D
Interesting thread. Of the ones I know, Goosens stands out for me, his two symphonies are both excellent. Markevitch's Icarus is another work I return to. Howard Hanson was a fine composer too. I am listening to his stirring "Bold Island Suite" at the moment. A great new discovery for me.
Have just listened to Bernstein's On the Waterfront - what a great piece! Certainly one of my favourite pieces of his along with The Meditations from Mass and the Clarinet Sonata. I think On the Waterfront is my favourite of his purely orchestral works (not with soloist), though the first Symphony is also very appealing. The way the whole twenty minute span of on the Waterfront pans out from a fairly limited amount of material is just brilliant, it never gets boring or overstays its welcome and it just makes such beautiful logical sense from start to finish. I love it!
Quote from: Greta on December 28, 2007, 03:30:12 AM
...I really would like to hear the ... Dorati works...
The only work I know of Dorati's is a set of five pieces for unaccompanied oboe, written for Heinz Holliger (also a composer and conductor :))--but they're doozies! Not only technically awesome (I still can't play them as well as they really should be played), but musically very fine. :D
Quote from: Guido on May 31, 2008, 04:10:34 PM
Have just listened to Bernstein's On the Waterfront - what a great piece! Certainly one of my favourite pieces of his along with The Meditations from Mass and the Clarinet Sonata. I think On the Waterfront is my favourite of his purely orchestral works (not with soloist), though the first Symphony is also very appealing. The way the whole twenty minute span of on the Waterfront pans out from a fairly limited amount of material is just brilliant, it never gets boring or overstays its welcome and it just makes such beautiful logical sense from start to finish. I love it!
Bernstein's "Jeremiah Symphony" and "On the Waterfront" are my two favourite scores by him. Both great works. I find the lamentation at the end of "Jeremiah" very moving.
Quote from: vandermolen on June 05, 2008, 07:00:36 AM
Bernstein's "Jeremiah Symphony" and "On the Waterfront" are my two favourite scores by him. Both great works. I find the lamentation at the end of "Jeremiah" very moving.
Yes absolutely.
Quote from: vandermolen on June 05, 2008, 07:00:36 AM
Bernstein's "Jeremiah Symphony" and "On the Waterfront" are my two favourite scores by him. Both great works. I find the lamentation at the end of "Jeremiah" very moving.
Do you know-oh, of course you must-the Serenade for Violin, Strings, Harp and Percussion? That work and the 'Chichester Psalms' are two Bernstein pieces I really love. The Serenade is really most beautiful!
Conducting HAS become a separate discipline, and it's an extremely difficult job requiring a staggering amount of knowledge and technical skill.
Learning the basic beat patterns is very easy, but the actual technique of beating time isoften extremely tricky, depending on the rhythmic complexity of the music.
Plus the need for knowledge of bowing technique, and to be familiar with woodwinds,brass and percussion etc, the ability to correct faulty intonation and guage balances etc, and knowing how to rehearse efficintly and so many other factors.
Other leading conductors of our time who have composed are Leif Segerstam, who believe it or not has actually written more symphonies than Haydn, Michael Tilson Thomas,Leonard Slatkin, Michael Gielen, and Victoria Bond.
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 29, 2007, 07:04:12 AM
There was an RCA CD of Maazel conducting the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra in his three compositions rather uninvitingly entitled Music for Cello and Orchestra, Op.10, Music for Flute and Orchestra, Op.11 and Music for Violin and Orchestra, Op.12.
Maazel himself was the violin soloist but the other works featured Mstislav Rostropovich and James Galway respectively.
I haven't heard the CD so cannot comment on the quality of these works. He certainly got two stellar soloists for the disc!
Predictably I only really know the cello work, but it is a very fine piece in my estimation - there's a particularly striking movement called Limbo. I just learned that it's being played next year in London so I am very excited! (Just saw that I already commented on the piece above!)
Previn's compositions are often very good indeed. I have quite a few songs of his which are consistently very fine, Tango Song and Dance played by and written for Anne Sophie Mutter, of which the central "Song" is utterly gorgeous, a piano concerto and a guitar concerto which I don't know well enough yet, some enchanting and lovely Diversions for orchestra (with lots of prominant solos - its sort of a concerto for orchestra I suppose) and a nice lyrical, if slightly unmemorable Violin sonata. This CD is an absolute gem though:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51QUil58fjL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
The cello sonata is a really great jazz inspired work - somewhat like Shostakovich or Hindemith in places, but Previn has his own voice and very characteristic harmonic and melodic gestures. The four songs for soprano, cello and piano are utterly sublime. Recommended wholeheartedly.
Peter Eötvös was a big presence in the Gaida/ISCM World Music Days festivals in Vilnius this year, both as conductor and composer.
On the way to my plane back to Berlin (and then Portland, OR), who should I see just sitting in the waiting area (for his plane back to Budapest) but Peter Eötvös and his wife!
He writes operas, too, which takes up a lot of time, I would think.
Other than Mahler, I think that Bernstein is my favourite conductor/composer (Jeremiah/On the Warterfront/West Side Story Symphonic Dances). I think that I listened to the Dorati symphonies on BIS but didn't make much of them. I did not enjoy the Klemperer symphonies, let alone the "Merry Waltz". Markevitch is another matter however; an interesting composer - especially "Icarus", an approachable modern work. The two Goossens symphonies I rate very highly and Hanson I consider as a composer first of all (Symphony 3/Bold Island Suite are my favourites).
Lief Segerstram's symphonies don't mean much to me but Simon Rattle's two hour "Margaret Thatcher Symphony" is well worth investigation ( ;D)
Quote from: vandermolen on November 30, 2008, 12:04:31 AM
Lief Segerstram's symphonies don't mean much to me but Simon Rattle's two hour "Margaret Thatcher Symphony" is well worth investigation
A tremendous score, indeed. The
Poll Tax Fugue is the absolute high point for me. And the great solo at the end, where the soprano shrieks 'No! No! No!'
It certainly is a curious piece. He follows Schnittke in having two singers sing together one character. Schnittke did this to portray Satan, Rattle clearly feels much the same about Thatcher....he uses it in the movement entitled, 'We are now a grandmother'.
What happened to the promise of a thread about composers who conduct? Did it ever emerge?
Mike
Quote from: Jezetha on November 30, 2008, 12:21:06 AM
A tremendous score, indeed. The Poll Tax Fugue is the absolute high point for me. And the great solo at the end, where the soprano shrieks 'No! No! No!'
Surely it is 'The Poll Tax Fudge'
Mike
Quote from: knight on November 30, 2008, 12:38:28 AM
It certainly is a curious piece. He follows Schnittke in having two singers sing together one character. Schnittke did this to portray Satan, Rattle clearly feels much the same about Thatcher....he uses it in the movement entitled, 'We are now a grandmother'.
Quote from: knight on November 30, 2008, 12:39:23 AM
Surely it is 'The Poll Tax Fudge'
;D
Quote from: Jezetha on November 30, 2008, 12:21:06 AM
A tremendous score, indeed. The Poll Tax Fugue is the absolute high point for me. And the great solo at the end, where the soprano shrieks 'No! No! No!'
;D
Quote from: knight on November 30, 2008, 12:38:28 AM
It certainly is a curious piece. He follows Schnittke in having two singers sing together one character. Schnittke did this to portray Satan, Rattle clearly feels much the same about Thatcher....he uses it in the movement entitled, 'We are now a grandmother'.
What happened to the promise of a thread about composers who conduct? Did it ever emerge?
Mike
Ah! Thanks for reminding me about that promised thread :-\ ;D I shall turn my mind to it shortly :)
I am totally confused about Rattle as a composer though! What ARE you all talking about?? Is this one of your elaborate jokes which I am too dense/obtuse to understand?
I have no great opinion of Rattle anyway. With the exceptions of his Mahler 2nd and 10th and Nicholas Maw's Odyssey, I don't think anything conducted by Rattle would be a first choice for me. Quite apart from the fact that he shows very little interest in British music ;D
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 30, 2008, 05:53:09 AM
Ah! Thanks for reminding me about that promised thread :-\ ;D I shall turn my mind to it shortly :)
I am totally confused about Rattle as a composer though! What ARE you all talking about?? Is this one of your elaborate jokes which I am too dense/obtuse to understand?
I have no great opinion of Rattle anyway. With the exceptions of his Mahler 2nd and 10th and Nicholas Maw's Odyssey, I don't think anything conducted by Rattle would be a first choice for me. Quite apart from the fact that he shows very little interest in British music ;D
He's a champion of Ades and Adams, which is enough for me... his recording of Adams Harmonielehre is really great.
Agree about Adams-though, obviously, he isn't British ;D Ades is a composer whose work I don't know :(
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 30, 2008, 05:53:09 AM
I am totally confused about Rattle as a composer though! What ARE you all talking about?? Is this one of your elaborate jokes which I am too dense/obtuse to understand?
What can I say, other than....yes, though as to whether you are being dense
or obtuse, I will not hazard an opinion.
Mike
Quote from: knight on November 30, 2008, 06:52:11 AM
What can I say, other than....yes, though as to whether you are being dense or obtuse, I will not hazard an opinion.
Mike
Of all the many faults I doubtless possess my lack of a well-defined sense of humour is one of the most socially crippling :( ;D ;D
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 25, 2007, 03:47:36 PM
Paul Paray(two symphonies and a Mass)
Paul Kletzki(three symphonies; stopped composing in 1942)
Antal Dorati(two symphonies, concertos, an opera, a cantata and a wide range of other music)
Rafael Kubelik(three symphonies, three Requiems, operas)
I'd very much like to hear these works.
I haven't read the whole thread to see if he's been mentioned yet, but Oliver Knussen comes to mind.
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 30, 2008, 06:20:57 AM
Agree about Adams-though, obviously, he isn't British ;D Ades is a composer whose work I don't know :(
Oh wow, you really must - probably my favourite (I would say greatest... but don't want to be presumptuous) young composer working today - and thankfully all his works have been recorded by EMI. He's a composer who conducts (and plays piano) too.
Quote from: Brian on November 30, 2008, 10:41:41 AM
I'd very much like to hear these works.
I haven't read the whole thread to see if he's been mentioned yet, but Oliver Knussen comes to mind.
Kletzki's 3rd Symphony the two Dorati have been released by BIS.
I too would like to hear the Paray and the Kubelik but also Jean Martinon's four symphonies.
Quote from: Guido on November 30, 2008, 02:46:45 PM
Oh wow, you really must - probably my favourite (I would say greatest... but don't want to be presumptuous) young composer working today....
Kinda depends on how many young composers working today you know, dunnit?
Don't know how I've managed to miss this thread before. Could anyone re-upload the files that M Forever posted near the beginning? :-*
In the meantime, I'll merge this with the older version of the topic.
Quote from: Guido on November 30, 2008, 06:16:12 AM
He's a champion of Ades and Adams
And Szymanowski! 8)
Any views on the two Dorati symphonies?
Quote from: vandermolen on December 02, 2008, 11:42:04 AM
Any views on the two Dorati symphonies?
I shall listen to them again and get back to you ;D
(Far too often in the past I have bought cds, listened to them once and filed them on my shelves-too busy to make the time to listen to them again. Now that I am unemployed I do not have that excuse ;D)
Quote from: some guy on December 01, 2008, 09:52:37 PM
Kinda depends on how many young composers working today you know, dunnit?
Well yes, but also I don't want to discount the possibility of an Ives like character who is working in some kind of self imposed quarantine! Also, one is rather limited by what one can reasonably get on CD.
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 02, 2008, 11:56:42 AM
I shall listen to them again and get back to you ;D
(Far too often in the past I have bought cds, listened to them once and filed them on my shelves-too busy to make the time to listen to them again. Now that I am unemployed I do have that excuse ;D)
Thanks Colin. I do exactly the same myself!
Ok..have listened again to the two Dorati symphonies on BIS(Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra/the composer conducting) ;D
The 1st(a work in five movements dating from the mid-1950s and performed by the BBC Symphony Orchestra at Dorati's last concert as their Music Director) is an aggressively harsh work and somewhat less than appealing. The 2nd "Querela Pacis"(1985) was commissioned by the Detroit Symphony Orchestra and is a better piece, less frenetic, more measured, quite a moving work. The BIS recording of the 1st was made at a live performance in Stockholm in 1972 but the 2nd is a studio recording from May 1988 just 6 months before Dorati died.
What a great conductor Dorati was incidentally! So many great recordings and so many orchestras put on the map or turned around by him(Minneapolis, Dallas, Washington, Detroit, not to mention Stockholm, the BBC Symphony and the Royal Philharmonic in London.)
British Broadcasting Corporation as in ABC or NBC in the USA.
I am presuming that you know what USA stands for?
Quote from: Christi on December 02, 2008, 05:27:21 PM
Like I said, I didn't know a TV channel had a Philharmonic !!!!
BBC Philharmonic Orchestra
BBC Concert Orchestra
BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra
BBC Symphony Orchestra
BBC National Orchestra of Wales
http://www.bbc.co.uk/orchestras/
The BBC is not a TV channel. It is the world's largest broadcasting organization and a self-governing public corporation financed through a licence fee payable by everybody in Britain who has access to its' radio and tv broadcasts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC
The BBC Philharmonic Orchestra is based in Manchester(north of England) and used to be known as the BBC Northern Symphony Orchestra.
This has now become plain ridiculous >:(
You ask questions which some of us have (probably stupidly) tried to answer but you have never told us anything at all about yourself!
And now you don't even read the answers!! I explained what the letters B.B.C. stand for and provided a link to the wikipedia article.
Enough is enough >:( If someone sees me responding to any more of these posts you have my permission to administer a swift boot up the backside :)
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 02, 2008, 03:02:22 PM
Ok..have listened again to the two Dorati symphonies on BIS(Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra/the composer conducting) ;D
The 1st(a work in five movements dating from the mid-1950s and performed by the BBC Symphony Orchestra at Dorati's last concert as their Music Director) is an aggressively harsh work and somewhat less than appealing. The 2nd "Querela Pacis"(1985) was commissioned by the Detroit Symphony Orchestra and is a better piece, less frenetic, more measured, quite a moving work. The BIS recording of the 1st was made at a live performance in Stockholm in 1972 but the 2nd is a studio recording from May 1988 just 6 months before Dorati died.
What a great conductor Dorati was incidentally! So many great recordings and so many orchestras put on the map or turned around by him(Minneapolis, Dallas, Washington, Detroit, not to mention Stockholm, the BBC Symphony and the Royal Philharmonic in London.)
Thanks Colin that's very helpful. The question is: is the Second Symphony moving enough for me to buy the CD? Is there a recording by The History Channel Symphony Orchestra? ;D
Quote from: vandermolen on December 03, 2008, 01:49:37 AM
Thanks Colin that's very helpful. The question is: is the Second Symphony moving enough for me to buy the CD? Is there a recording by The History Channel Symphony Orchestra? ;D
All good things come to those who wait ;D ;D
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 03, 2008, 06:56:29 AM
All good things come to those who wait ;D ;D
Thanks v much Colin. I'll let you know what i make of it.
Jeffrey
What about Hamilton Harty? A great conductor of the premiere of Walton's First Symphony but also an interesting composer. The Children of Lir in particular and I have a soft spot for the Rachmaninov like Piano Concerto.
Quote from: vandermolen on December 07, 2008, 02:49:59 AM
What about Hamilton Harty? A great conductor of the premiere of Walton's First Symphony but also an interesting composer. The Children of Lir in particular and I have a soft spot for the Rachmaninov like Piano Concerto.
Don't know how I could have missed Hamilton Harty! You are absolutely right! Good heavens-I have got 5 cds of music by Harty!! The Irish Symphony, the Piano and Violin Concertos and, a piece I really like, the Tone Poem "With the Wild Geese"(which is nothing to do with the geese which fly btw; the "Wild Geese" were the soldiers of an Irish Jacobite mercenary army which fought in continental Europe on the side of France and a number of other countries in the wars of the late 17th and early 18th century).
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 07, 2008, 06:12:15 AM
Don't know how I could have missed Hamilton Harty! You are absolutely right! Good heavens-I have got 5 cds of music by Harty!! The Irish Symphony, the Piano and Violin Concertos and, a piece I really like, the Tone Poem "With the Wild Geese"(which is nothing to do with the geese which fly btw; the "Wild Geese" were the soldiers of an Irish Jacobite mercenary army which fought in continental Europe on the side of France and a number of other countries in the wars of the late 17th and early 18th century).
The tone poems "With the Wild Geese" and "In Ireland" are both favourites of mine too, along with The Children of Lir and the immensely enjoyable (if listened to in the right spirit) Piano Concerto.
CPO are releasing Bruno Walter's Symphony in January. Looks like a very interesting release. Anyone know anything about it? The blurb describes it as a masterpiece.
Quote from: vandermolen on December 19, 2008, 05:20:24 AM
CPO are releasing Bruno Walter's Symphony in January. Looks like a very interesting release. Anyone know anything about it? The blurb describes it as a masterpiece.
I talked about it elsewhere on this forum ;D I shall look for the post(although with less enthusiasm than I would have had if you had told us you liked Arthur Butterworth ;D)
Well...that took some finding..but here it is-
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg242628.html#msg242628
Thanks v much Colin. Infact your description of Bruno Walter's Symphony 'long, rambling' etc could have been a description of Arthur Butterworth's Symphony ;D hehe, which I am listening to at the moment.
It is shorter than that rotten old degenerate Arnold Bax's 2nd or 3rd ;D
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 19, 2008, 06:02:10 AM
It is shorter than that rotten old degenerate Arnold Bax's 2nd or 3rd ;D
Now you go too far. Jezetha will be especially upset ;D
It will be ok....so long as you don't tell him ;D
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 19, 2008, 06:10:37 AM
It will be ok....so long as you don't tell him ;D
Mum's the word ;D
Aaaaaah!
It wasn't me!! It was that other boy over there ;D
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 19, 2008, 08:14:15 AM
Aaaaaah!
It wasn't me!! It was that other boy over there ;D
I'll tell the head.
I'll tell him I was forced to listen to a surfeit of Bax.........AND Delius ;D
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 19, 2008, 08:23:33 AM
I'll tell him I was forced to listen to a surfeit of Bax.........AND Delius ;D
DELIUS? Then I stand no chance, he'll exonerate you... Woe is me!
:)
I'm surprised that Havergal Brian hasn't yet been dragged into this undignified little display ;D
Quote from: vandermolen on December 19, 2008, 09:54:40 AM
I'm surprised that Havergal Brian hasn't yet been dragged into this undignified little display ;D
There are limits, dear Jeffrey, there are limits. $:)
Quote from: Jezetha on December 19, 2008, 11:40:04 AM
There are limits, dear Jeffrey, there are limits. $:)
;D
Okay, I happened to see a mention of Christoph Graupner and it jogged a far distant memory.
When I was in Germany (Tuebingen) in the early 1970's, I often listened to German classical radio. One day I hear the announcer go on and on about a man "who is creative in an uncreative time" and who dares to follow his own way without bothering about fashionable trends like "serialism or musique concrete," etc. etc.
"Dieser Mann heisst Kurt Graunke!"
More lionization was spoken, and then finally we were about to hear the "Symphony #2 by Kurt Graunke, Kurt Graunke conducts the Kurt Graunke Symphony Orchestra!"
And so how was the symphony? I do not recall being at all impressed!
So... I just "googled" his name, and came across a Wikipedia entry in German about him:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Graunke (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Graunke)
And I was amazed to discover that the present Munich Symphony Orchestra is the descendant of the "Kurt Graunke Symphony Orchestra." :o :o :o
Amazon.de lists several CD's, including the symphony I heard!
[asin]B001URGCA4[/asin]
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on December 20, 2013, 10:47:51 AM
You have reminded me that somewhere I have a copy of this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51eSeqvrgZL._SX450_.jpg)
Bruckner Symphony No.8
Graunke Symphony Orchestra
Kurt Graunke conductor
Which I must have played at some point but of which I retain absolutely no memory. Think I will seek it out and give it a whirl (this may take some time... ::))
Graunke must have had some money, and/or a magnetic personality and competence to put together an orchestra,
name it after himself, and get recordings made, especially right after WWII.
And I understand about searching the archives! ;)
Quote from: Cato on December 20, 2013, 09:02:06 AM
Okay, I happened to see a mention of Christoph Graupner and it jogged a far distant memory.
When I was in Germany (Tuebingen) in the early 1970's, I often listened to German classical radio. One day I hear the announcer go on and on about a man "who is creative in an uncreative time" and who dares to follow his own way without bothering about fashionable trends like "serialism or musique concrete," etc. etc.
"Dieser Mann heisst Kurt Graunke!"
More lionization was spoken, and then finally we were about to hear the "Symphony #2 by Kurt Graunke, Kurt Graunke conducts the Kurt Graunke Symphony Orchestra!"
And so how was the symphony? I do not recall being at all impressed!
So... I just "googled" his name, and came across a Wikipedia entry in German about him:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Graunke (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Graunke)
And I was amazed to discover that the present Munich Symphony Orchestra is the descendant of the "Kurt Graunke Symphony Orchestra." :o :o :o
Amazon.de lists several CD's, including the symphony I heard!
[asin]B001URGCA4[/asin]
Soapy Molloy did indeed find this in his archives:
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on December 20, 2013, 10:47:51 AM
You have reminded me that somewhere I have a copy of this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51eSeqvrgZL._SX450_.jpg)
Bruckner Symphony No.8
Graunke Symphony Orchestra
Kurt Graunke conductor
Which I must have played at some point but of which I retain absolutely no memory. Think I will seek it out and give it a whirl (this may take some time... ::))
...and gave it a "not bad" rating.
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on December 21, 2013, 10:18:51 AM
A few bum notes aside. Otherwise pretty good, in fact. Would have been very happy to hear that in concert. :) Heard plenty worse. >:(
Quote from: Soapy Molloy on December 22, 2013, 10:25:50 AM
Yes, I was surprised how good that Bruckner 8th turned out to be. A strong, well-balanced performance slap in the middle of the range. If I'd had to guess blind, I might have gone for someone like Günter Wand or Takashi Asahina from around the same vintage. :o
Are those Graunke symphonies really stinkers? I wasn't that keen on either Furtwängler's or von Hausegger's own efforts at composition, fine Bruckner conductors though they be.
Like I wrote earlier, I heard
Symphony #2 c. 40 years ago, and recall not being impressed.
YouTube has this: a rehearsal of
Graunke's Symphony #9:
http://www.youtube.com/v/BGyI8WnBAEc
Here is what someone wrote on another website:
QuoteI've just dug out the Sedina LP of Graunke's 4th Symphony that I haven't listened to in decades. I recall the style as being rather dense, restless (if somewhat exhausting), and chromatic, though the movements adhere to classical forms (sonata form in the outer of the 4 movements with two fugue themes in the latter). Not fair to review by memory, though, is it?
http://classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8031 (http://classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8031)
The criteria for my list is that these men made their living from conducting, either having had an official position or doing enough conducting to have left a sizable recorded legacy. However, they are known mainly as composers.
Those for whom we do not have any record of their conducting:
JS Bach. His primary occupation was as music director/conductor, and there is some documentary evidence of his expertise in that area, but of course his music is all we consider nowadays.
Joseph Haydn. Same as above.
Gustav Mahler. There may be a recording here or there, but mainly it is through reputation that we know he was a great conductor.
Others that come to mind.
Igor Stravinsky. While there is grumbling that his versions of his own work are not the best, and he did not conduct the music of other composers, he still worked a lot as a conductor.
Benjamin Britten. He never had an offical post, but he was offered the musical directorship of the Covent Garden Opera in 1952 but declined. Besides his own music, Britten's repertory included Purcell, Bach, Haydn, Mozart and Schubert.
Bruno Maderna. Also not having a position, but his recorded repertory is extensive. If you have not heard his Mahler 7th or 9th, do.
Leonard Bernstein. Harder to make a case for his composing, at least, compared to the others on this list; but, I can't leave him off.
Pierre Boulez.
Peter Eötvös.
Nice list, sanantonio. But Richard Strauss should be on it, don't you thinkl? :)
Cheers,
Quote from: ritter on April 16, 2015, 03:32:33 AM
Nice list, sanantonio. But Richard Strauss should be on it, don't you thinkl? :)
Cheers,
Of course; but since I never listen to his music, I didn't even think of him. I am sure there are many others; my list is made up of low hanging fruit, but might jump start a conversation. Or not.
:D
Quote from: sanantonio on April 16, 2015, 03:12:47 AM
The criteria for my list is that these men made their living from conducting, either having had an official position or doing enough conducting to have left a sizable recorded legacy. However, they are known mainly as composers.
Those for whom we do not have any record of their conducting:
JS Bach. His primary occupation was as music director/conductor, and there is some documentary evidence of his expertise in that area, but of course his music is all we consider nowadays.
Joseph Haydn. Same as above.
Gustav Mahler. There may be a recording here or there, but mainly it is through reputation that we know he was a great conductor.
Others that come to mind.
Igor Stravinsky. While there is grumbling that his versions of his own work are not the best, and he did not conduct the music of other composers, he still worked a lot as a conductor.
Benjamin Britten. He never had an offical post, but he was offered the musical directorship of the Covent Garden Opera in 1952 but declined. Besides his own music, Britten's repertory included Purcell, Bach, Haydn, Mozart and Schubert.
Bruno Maderna. Also not having a position, but his recorded repertory is extensive. If you have not heard his Mahler 7th or 9th, do.
Leonard Bernstein. Harder to make a case for his composing, at least, compared to the others on this list; but, I can't leave him off.
Pierre Boulez.
Peter Eötvös.
I wonder if it's so obvious that Bruno Maderna is known mainly as a composer. The recordings are cherished by music lovers, and not just the Mahler, it's a real shame that they were hard to find on CD, that could all change now of course. The compositions, well there are four or five "well known" ones, I suppose.
From here (http://www.sibelius.fi/english/erikoisaiheet/ihmisena/ihm_04a.htm):
QuoteJean Sibelius conducted his music in Finland and also with foreign orchestras for over three decades. He was one of the most successful composer-conductors of his time and he established his own tradition with some of the top orchestras of Sweden and Britain. However, the only recording of Sibelius as a conductor is Andante festivo, which was recorded in 1939.
Esa-Pekka Salonen is of course much better known as a conductor, but well known as a composer too.
Well, I for one am happy to start a conversation on this...
Some additions to the list (apart from the aforementiioned Richard Strauss):
Richard
Wagner: He started his career as GMD in places such as Magdeburg, Königsberg and Riga, and got the (significnt) post of music director in Dresden. Later he would conduct almost exclusively his own works on tour...
George
Enescu: The
complete musician (compsoer, violinist, teacher, pinaist
and conductor). He was considered as MD of the NY Philharmonc-Symphony in the mid-30s (but IIRC, Barbirolli was chosen instead).
Cristóbal
Halffter: He has conducted regularly throughout his long career, and was also being considered as MD of the Spanish National Orchestra in the mid-90s. But well, this
major Spanish composer (a personal favourite of mine) revceives almost no attention here GMG :(
Giuseppe
Sinopoli: His compositional oevre is almost forgotten (I only know the
Lou Salomé suites), and he gave up composing at one point, but still qualifies.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 16, 2015, 03:54:32 AM
I wonder if it's so obvious that Bruno Maderna is known mainly as a composer. The recordings are cherished by music lovers, and not just the Mahler, it's a real shame that they were hard to find on CD, that could all change now of course. The compositions, well there are four or five "well known" ones, I suppose.
What amazes of Maderna is the breadth of his repertoire as conductor (from Scarlatti to Boulez and beyond). I cherish his recordings, and am irrritated that so many of the volumes of the "Maderna edition" on the defunct Arkadia label are almost impossible to find. I included him among my top 10 favourite conductors in the appropriate thread 8)
Quote from: sanantonio on April 16, 2015, 03:12:47 AM
JS Bach. His primary occupation was as music director/conductor, and there is some documentary evidence of his expertise in that area, but of course his music is all we consider nowadays.
Joseph Haydn. Same as above.
And
Vivaldi, teaching violin, rehearsing choirs and leading performances of the Pio Ospedale della Pietà.
Quote from: Mandryka on April 16, 2015, 03:54:32 AM
I wonder if it's so obvious that Bruno Maderna is known mainly as a composer.
Dunno. For myself his composing is far and away what I think of when I think of him. But I also think of him as a very generous musician, promoting an entire generation of younger composers.
Quote from: ritter on April 16, 2015, 04:06:35 AM
George Enescu: The complete musician (compsoer, violinist, teacher, pinaist and conductor). He was considered as MD of the NY Philharmonc-Symphony in the mid-30s (but IIRC, Barbirolli was chosen instead).
Yes, one of the most talented musicians ever to have lived. It has been told that Cortot said Enescu was a better pianist than he was. And I remember reading that D'Indy claimed that Enescu could write from memory the scores of all of
Beethoven's works if the manuscripts were destroyed.
http://www-control.eng.cam.ac.uk/hu/Enescu.html
QuoteThe story goes that George Enescu took on a young, untalented violinist as a pupil, to earn some money. The lad's father, who was rich, paid for a concert for his son, who was to play the violin while Enescu played the piano accompaniment. At the concert, a number of Enescu's friends turned up, including Cortot. Enescu needed some help with the score, and Cortot offered to turn the pages.
The Paris press reported this curious event more or less as follows: "We were treated to a strange concert last night. The man who turned pages should have played the piano. The man who played the piano should have played the violin. The man who played the violin should have turned the pages."
Quote from: North Star on April 16, 2015, 04:17:29 AM
And Vivaldi, teaching violin, rehearsing choirs and leading performances of the Pio Ospedale della Pietà.
I just named a couple but prior to Mozart it was very common for composers to have a position as music director, so just about every composer, prior to 1750, whose work has survived wrote the music as part of larger official position. Beethoven was one of the first to insist on pushing the idea of the composer as composer.
Quote from: North Star on April 16, 2015, 04:21:05 AM
Yes, one of the most talented musicians ever to have lived. It has been told that Cortot said Enescu was a better pianist than he was. And I remember reading that D'Indy claimed that Enescu could write from memory the scores of all of Beethoven's works if the manuscripts were destroyed.
Legend has it that he read Ravel´s Violin Sonata while travelling by train and then performed it flawlessly in front of the composer the next evening. (or something like that, I´m too lazy to look for the whole thing)
Quote
"We were treated to a strange concert last night. The man who turned pages should have played the piano. The man who played the piano should have played the violin. The man who played the violin should have turned the pages."
:D :D :D
Not very familiar, both as composer and conductor, but I guess he deserves mention here: Hans Zender
Gunther Schuller is pretty accomplished at both, as well as being a leading Jazz scholar.
I've just been listening to Furtwängler's Symphony No.1. At an hour and twenty minutes it's in Bruckner, Mahler and Havergal Brian territory. In fact there are quite a few allusions to Bruckner, Brhams and Beethoven in the piece, and though none to Mahler that I noticed,
It's quite a pleasant piece and doesn't drag, I was quite surprised when it ended, as I hadn't realised that the time had gone by. However, it isn't really a great symphony. The maestro seems mainly to be fitting Brahmsian themes to a Bruckner sized framework, and the two don't go together. There also isn't much tension in the piece, which is amazing considering it was written during WW2, when Furtwängler was still in Germany, but was being uncooperative with the Nazis (quite a risky thing to do).
One for the enthusiasts.