GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: Dundonnell on October 21, 2008, 04:43:05 PM

Title: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Dundonnell on October 21, 2008, 04:43:05 PM
for my 1,000th post on this site I would like to pay tribute to a composer for whom I have long had great admiration-the Austrian composer, scholar and teacher Egon Wellesz.

(Before continuing however I would just like to say how much I have enjoyed membership of this site over the past year, how indebted I am to all those who have alerted me to music of which I was unaware and those who have reawakened an interest and appreciation in music which I knew but had forgotten or under-valued in the past, and how grateful I am to have made real and valued friendships here.
Contributing to this site is an activity I very much hope to continue for as long as possible and is something I hugely enjoy :) Thanks for that opportunity :))

The best introductions to Wellesz can be found in these linked articles-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egon_Wellesz

http://www.musicweb-international.com/wellesz/wellesz.htm

I will not pretend that Wellesz is the most 'accessible' composer of those who rank among my own personal favourites but he is one for whom I do have profound respect. Born to prosperous Jewish parents in Vienna in 1885, the experience of hearing Mahler conducting influenced him in seeking to pursue a musical career. A student of Guido Adler, he also took private lessons in harmony and counterpoint from Arnold Schoenberg. Following advice from the conductor Bruno Walter however, Wellesz sought to establish himself as a composer who stood apart from Schoenberg and his other pupils. Although he is counted as a member of 'The Second Viennese School' his early influences stem more from composers like Mahler, Debussy and Bartok. Despite this he remained on good personal terms with Schoenberg and was that composer's first biographer.

In the 1920s Wellesz had established himself as one of the most promising of the composers working in Central Europe with performances of his five operas and four ballets in the top houses of Austria and Germany. He also forged a distinguished reputation as a scholar at the University of Vienna, specialising in, among other subjects, Byzantine music. Wellesz was one of the principal founders of the International Society for Contemporary Music.  As with other Jewish composers his music suffered from the Nazi takeover in Germany in 1933 but he was fortunate enough to be in Amsterdam on the day of the Anschluss in 1938 and was warned by friends not to return to Austria.

Wellesz travelled to Britain(to be joined later-after considerable difficulties- by his family) and settled in Oxford. He had already, in 1932, been awarded an honorary doctorate by Oxford University(the first Austrian to be so honoured since Haydn). For the rest of his life he remained in Oxford as a Fellow of Lincoln College and latterly also a Professor.

The trauma of leaving his native country together with other wartime difficulties meant that Wellesz wrote no music in Britain until-inspired by Gerard Manley Hopkins' "The Leaden Echo and the Golden Echo"- he rediscovered his muse. Beginning in 1945 Wellesz embarked on the 1st of what became a cycle of nine symphonies(1945-1971). Although these were broadcast long ago by the BBC they had very little public exposure during Wellesz's lifetime either in his adopted country or in Austria(where the composer was showered with academic honours but, to his deep sadness, no offer of a return to a teaching position). These have all been recorded by CPO with the Vienna Radio Symphony Orchestra conducted by Gottfried Rabl. The long-awaited premiere of the Third Symphony in Vienna in 2000 was a triumph-
http://www.musicweb-international.com/wellesz/third.htm

The first four symphonies are tonal and stand in line of succession from Bruckner and Mahler although they considerably extend traditional tonalities. Starting with Symphony No.5 however Wellesz's idiom developed into much more Expressionist and serial territory.
That makes the last four symphonies, in particular, 'tougher nuts'(for me at least) to crack but my respect for the sincerity, integrity and orchestral mastery of Wellesz has always persuaded me to make the effort.

There are a number of big late choral compositions-the Duineser Elegie for soprano, choir and orchestra(1963), Mirabile Mysterium for soloist, choir and orchestra(1967) and Canticum Sapientiae for baritone, choir and orchestra(1968)-which I would dearly love to hear.
At least however the Violin Concerto(1961) is available on Orfeo coupled with the Symphonic Suite "Prosperos beschworungen"(the work whose Dutch performance Wellesz was attending in Amsterdam in 1938) and there is a collection of orchestral songs on Capriccio.

Wellesz will never-I suspect-be a popular composer but he was an adornment to 20th century music as a composer and a scholar and deserves the recognition he is belatedly receiving!

Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Dundonnell on October 21, 2008, 04:44:20 PM
and-
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 21, 2008, 11:16:30 PM
A pity I couldn't congratulate you in real time, Colin! But you're a veteran now. Your contributions to this forum have been very substantial, and I suspect many composers are smiling (not turning) in their graves in gratitude of your advocacy. Keep posting and enlightening us!

Johan
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Harry on October 21, 2008, 11:22:59 PM
Congrats Colin, regarding your 1000th post. You are for me a highly appreciated poster, that gave me many insights into music. And a friendly mind too!
I have the CPO recordings with the Symphonies of Egon Wellesz, yet to be played, and I am looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: springrite on October 21, 2008, 11:41:31 PM
I have just one CD, the Symphony #2 and #9, which I have played several times to great delight! I will definitely look to get more of this composer's work in the future.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Dundonnell on October 22, 2008, 04:59:50 AM
Thank you Johan and Harry for your very kind words! I do really appreciate them :-[ :)

I hope that you do explore Wellesz further, Harry and springrite. Wellesz is a composer of real substance who has a sure sense of purpose.

You refer, Johan, to 'advocacy' of composers :) You-above many others ;D ;)-will recognise the respect and admiration which is often engendered by the thought of the composer who during his lifetime did not receive the public exposure which his work undoubtedly deserved but nevertheless continued undaunted to compose the music he wanted to compose without regard for fashion or popularity :)

There are so many examples which spring to mind! Wellesz had the advantage over Havergal Brian in that he had a secure academic position in Oxford and a distinguished reputation as a musical scholar. He also was able to hear most of his symphonies played at least once-although not the fine 3rd which Boult planned to premiere but the BBC cancelled. Only one of the symphonies in fact was first performed in Britain-the 7th by Hugo Rignold(an understimated conductor btw) in Birmingham.

But there are similarities with HB(which just may be part of the attraction to me?). Wellesz was 60 when he came to the symphony(a late starter like his fellow Austrian Ernst Toch-but a better composer than Toch in my opinion) but then produced nine over the next 26 years. He was also someone who took a great interest in contemporary music but was utterly determined to go his own way.
I suppose however that the fact that Wellesz took remarkably little interest in the music of British composers of his time may not have helped his cause :)

(oh, and by the way, I have far from exhausted my list of other less than famous composers to promote here :) :))
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: pjme on October 22, 2008, 06:32:21 AM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/march99/wellesz.jpg)

This is the only recording I have by Wellesz. Must listen again....

Colin, as for new recordings : soon new versions of Daniel Sternefeld's two symphonies will be out on Etcetera. I'll keep you informed.
Peter

Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Bulldog on October 22, 2008, 06:42:18 AM
And don't forget the Wellesz string quartets.  Nimbus recently recorded nos. 3, 4 and 6 (nine total).
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Kullervo on October 22, 2008, 06:55:56 AM
Interestingly, whilst going through archived magazine articles for research on Mann's Doktor Faustus, I found an old (1949) review of a book he wrote on Byzantine music — before then he wasn't a name I had known. Is his music influenced by his studies on Byzantine music (however that sounds :o)?
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Dundonnell on October 22, 2008, 07:51:41 AM
Quote from: pjme on October 22, 2008, 06:32:21 AM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/march99/wellesz.jpg)

This is the only recording I have by Wellesz. Must listen again....

Colin, as for new recordings : soon new versions of Daniel Sternefeld's two symphonies will be out on Etcetera. I'll keep you informed.
Peter



I have been looking for that cd of the Piano Concerto without success for sometime :(

Daniel Sternefeld.... another new name to me! From what I have now read about him I am intrigued :) Thanks!
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Dundonnell on October 22, 2008, 07:56:14 AM
Quote from: Corey on October 22, 2008, 06:55:56 AM
Interestingly, whilst going through archived magazine articles for research on Mann's Doktor Faustus, I found an old (1949) review of a book he wrote on Byzantine music — before then he wasn't a name I had known. Is his music influenced by his studies on Byzantine music (however that sounds :o)?

I do know that in 1916 he deciphered the secrets of Byzantine musical notation and did indeed write the first scholarly text on the subject. Whether his own music was in any shape or form influenced by Byzantine music and do not know and rather doubt. I have certainly read no references to such influences.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: pjme on October 22, 2008, 01:40:08 PM
I found another Wellesz disc....(http://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/4011790478128.jpg) and it is by far the best of the two I have! Although I have these discs for quite a while, I more or less forgot about them.
I Listened again to : the pianoconcerto op. 49 (1931), Prospero's Beschwörungen opus 53 and the 1961 violinconcerto opus 84.

The violinconcerto made thegreatest impression - a very dark, somber work - almost tragic. 4 substantial movements ,totaling 27.30 mins. :Largo/allegretto/Allegro non troppo - adagio - Scherzo/vivace - Andante sostenuto. The last movement is very strong , (with a large- scale cadenza) . It brings the work to an incredibly still and haunting end. Very impressive .
Prospero's spells ( 1934-35) is a 5 movement orchestral suite ( ca 30 mins) Mahler and Berg loom over this grandly expansive work. Again, the last movement (Ferdinand und Miranda - Sehr breit und ruhevoll -epilog /Misterioso) caught my attention and imagination! Exquisite music in a late Romantic idiom! Well played by the Austrian Radio SO / Gerd Albrecht. Andrea Duka Löwenstein is the violinsoloist.
The pianoconcerto is very different. Possibly the performance is underpowered - but I found the work quite dull , especially the fast movements:neo-classical ( Hindemith, Stravinsky) , repetitious, grey....The slow movement ( a kind of Nocturne) is atmospheric.

Still, music I will return to soon - and I look forward to discover the symphonies.

P.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 22, 2008, 02:21:37 PM
Thanks, Peter. Very enticing description!
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Dundonnell on October 22, 2008, 04:13:35 PM
I agree with your assessment of the Violin Concerto and Prospero's Beschworungen, Peter :) I would have posted the cd cover image but I thought that four pictures of the CPO symphony series covers was enough ;D The violin concerto is indeed a very fine work! I am sorry that the piano concerto doesn't match it but at least I am not so sorry now that I have never managed to acquire the piece.

The Capriccio disc is worth searching out, It contains-

the early Symphonic Poem "Vorfruhling"(1912)
the late Symphonic Epilogue(1969)
Two Songs for contralto and orchestra "Leben, Traum und Tod"(1936/7)
"Lied der Welt" for soprano and orchestra(1936/38)
Sonnets of Elizabeth Barrett Browning from the Portugese for soprano and strings(1935?)
"Ode an die Musik" for contralto and chamber orchestra(1965)
Vision for soprano and orchestra(1966)
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 31, 2008, 02:05:41 AM
I have listened to Wellesz's First Symphony twice, and I am impressed. It's a fascinating piece of music. It comes in three movements, all with a very strong character of their own. So much so, indeed, that I wonder if the thing really hangs together as a symphony. If it does - and I don't have a score - it is because of the 'emotional logic'. The symphony feels like it progresses.

The opening movement is very serious and rather dark, a tense Largo/Adagio introduction being followed by a rather stern Allegro energico, (I'd say Reger meets Stravinsky), which in the end isn't the dry, fugal affair it could have been because of flashes of bleak poetry, which are among the appealing aspects of Wellesz's style. This attractiveness is really on show in the second movement, a very fresh-sounding Allegro agitato quasi presto. But the movement that really convinces you at once of Wellesz's qualities is the final movement, Molto adagio sostenuto, in which the tradition of Bruckner and Mahler is taken up very movingly. I was reminded of Korngold, the slow movement of his late Symphony in F sharp, although that is more overtly late Romantic. Wellesz is less 'glamorous', he has a rather severe streak, which gives his music 'bite'.

All in all - a great listening experience! The Second Symphony awaits me...
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: vandermolen on October 31, 2008, 06:06:59 AM
Somehow I seem to have missed this interesting thread; must have coincided with preparations for "The Siege of Leiden" I guess. Firstly, belated congratulations Colin on your 1000th posting (997 of them on J. Braga Santos  ;D)

I don't know much Wellesz but really like Symphony No 2 "The English" (which doesn't sound at all English!) That would be my recommendation as a starting point for this composer. However, I have just discovered that I own a CD of symphonies 1 and 8 (incipient old age means that I no longer know what is in my collection and occasionally end up buying the same CD twice  ::)) I have just taken off Boris Parsadanian's Second Symphony No 2 half-way through to sample Wellesz's No 1, which sounds good.

Wellesz evidently felt grateful to his adopted refuge from the Nazis, hence the subtitle of the Symphony No 2.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Dundonnell on October 31, 2008, 06:16:28 AM
You have provided an excellent precis of the 1st symphony, Johan, and I do so agree about the final movement :)

It is important to remember how heavy the shadow of Bruckner and Mahler lay over the younger generation of Austrian/German composers. These two great masters were such towering figures and their symphonies such immense masterpieces that it must have seemed to many that the last word had been said about the symphony. We obviously know the history of those who decided to carve out a new path on which the symphony had no place. A young composer/conductor like Bruno Walter, who revered Mahler, simply decided after around 1910 that he could not possibly match the amazing standards set and gave up composing. Others produced pale imitations.

Wellesz in Great Britain and Toch in the USA-both exiles from their native Austria-steered clear of the symphony until they were 60 and 63 respectively. Then, of course, the floodgates opened :) Wellesz produced 9 and Toch 7 but the former is, to my mind, the greater composer.

The Second Symphony, the so-called 'English'(not very much English-sounding about it to my ears!), does show in its four movements a degree more of formal cohesion and is less stern. Let us know how you react.

Only another seven after that! Although Nos. 5-9 do sound rather different ;D
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Dundonnell on October 31, 2008, 06:26:25 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 31, 2008, 06:06:59 AM
Somehow I seem to have missed this interesting thread; must have coincided with preparations for "The Siege of Leiden" I guess. Firstly, belated congratulations Colin on your 1000th posting (997 of them on J. Braga Santos  ;D)

I don't know much Wellesz but really like Symphony No 2 "The English" (which doesn't sound at all English!) That would be my recommendation as a starting point for this composer. However, I have just discovered that I own a CD of symphonies 1 and 8 (incipient old age means that I no longer know what is in my collection and occasionally end up buying the same CD twice  ::)) I have just taken off Boris Parsadanian's Second Symphony No 2 half-way through to sample Wellesz's No 1, which sounds good.

Wellesz evidently felt grateful to his adopted refuge from the Nazis, hence the subtitle of the Symphony No 2.

Ah, Jeffrey..our posts crossed!

Thank you for your congratulations :) Don't think it's quite that many on Braga Santos, though ;D ;D  Most about obscure symphonists I do suppose-but I did start a thread about Max Reger-who did not compose a single symphony!

You are quite correct about the 'English' as I had also observed. So many Central European exiles found their way to America-naturally enough! Wellesz was one of those who made their new home here-like Berthold Goldschmidt, Hans Gal, Matyas Seiber. He never lost however his deep love for Austria and the story of him wandering by the lake in Grasmere, being reminded of the Styrian countryside and finding the themes for a symphony stirring within him is moving.

Glad you are enjoying the 1st....try compiling a database of your cds-it is the only way to keep track :) :) I twice have bought the same cd by mistake-once was Boris Tchaikovsky's 4th symphony, if I recall correctly, by failing to check :)
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Dundonnell on October 31, 2008, 06:47:53 AM
My apologies(if any are really needed!) for my enthusiasm....but I am listening again to the 3rd symphony. The first movement alone has such a self-confident stride that I am quite bowled over :)

It is a tragedy that this was the symphony which was never performed during Wellesz's lifetime- for all sorts of reasons :(
The premiere in Vienna in 2000 was an unalloyed triumph with repeated ovations from the amazed and ecstatic audience and I can quite see why :) :) The review of the concert is linked in my first post on this thread. If that review doesn't whet your appetite then nothing will :) :)
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: donaldopato on October 31, 2008, 10:31:45 AM
I acquired the CPO recordings when they came out and enjoyed hearing the works of this fine composer. The disc of Symphonies 4, 6 and 7 is the one I turn to the most. The works abound with touches of Mahler, especially in the slow funeral march movements of 4 and 6 abound, combined with a more economical, compact structure. It has been a while since I heard these works, so this thread has inspired me to break them out again.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2011, 08:59:04 PM
I thought I would revive this thread as Egon Wellesz has been a composer that has flown under my radar for a few years, but tonight I decided to pull the trigger on the CPO set of symphonies. I'm fascinated by this composer for two reasons: 1. he was a student of Schoenberg and 2. his music has been described as caught between Bruckner, Mahler, and Berg. That's a fascinating combination, but I'm not sure how true it is of course as these kinds of descriptions pale so often do not do the music full justice. I've always been interested in 20th Century Austrian composers. I actually prefer them to the Germans. There's something about Vienna that just produces brilliant minds. :) Anyway, if I remember, I'll report back once I've received the set and had a chance to listen to some of the music.

Thanks for this thread Collin! I've read everybody's posts and I'm getting excited to hear this music.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 11:30:36 PM
I just read my own description of the Wellesz First here, which I have completely forgotten... Time to renew my acquaintance (when I have the time, it'll be a busy day).
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Dundonnell on December 21, 2011, 03:35:09 AM
Heavens!  It is three long(or short ???)  years since I wrote that lengthy screed about Wellesz.

How time flies :(

I wish that I had the time at the moment to write so much about any one composer :(
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: vandermolen on December 21, 2011, 11:56:41 AM
A big plug from me for Symphony No 2 'The English' which does not sound at all English but is is a fine, approachable score - very Brucknerian/Mahlerian in places. I'd start with this work.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: snyprrr on December 21, 2011, 12:43:30 PM
I just checked some Wellesz out on YouTube. I should have met him earlier (like during my DSCH tenure),... now I'm slightly ambivalent. The Symphonies are nice a brooding; and, I liked the SQs, but they were a bit on the angsty side for me.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Mirror Image on December 21, 2011, 07:55:37 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 21, 2011, 11:56:41 AM
A big plug from me for Symphony No 2 'The English' which does not sound at all English but is is a fine, approachable score - very Brucknerian/Mahlerian in places. I'd start with this work.

Cool, thanks Jeffrey. I'll probably listen to this one first then. Kudos! :)
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: vandermolen on December 22, 2011, 12:29:16 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 21, 2011, 07:55:37 PM
Cool, thanks Jeffrey. I'll probably listen to this one first then. Kudos! :)

My pleasure - you'll enjoy it I'm sure.
Jeffrey
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: springrite on December 24, 2011, 07:54:08 AM
I bought one of the symphonies discs and loved it. Yes, especially the #2 (English)!

Now I have the complete set but have yet to listen to them. This should be remedies next week for sure.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: snyprrr on May 16, 2013, 08:15:08 AM
I might be ready for the String Quartets now.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: San Antone on February 17, 2014, 06:04:19 PM
A short diversion in the Weinberg thread about Egon Wellesz caused me to go back and listen to his music. 

This recording has a good bit of his music for violin (mostly solo), the Suite, Op. 56 (violin and piano) I find especially compelling.

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/others/Gramola98818.gif)

Joanna Madroszkiewicz, violin
Paul Gulda, piano

Surrounding Wellesz, whose music occupies the majority of the disc, are violin sonatas by Haydn and Beethoven.   Somewhat odd choices to fill out the disc, but looking on the bright side, they do provide some variety.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: San Antone on March 06, 2014, 04:47:32 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 16, 2013, 08:15:08 AM
I might be ready for the String Quartets now.

The only recording I know of contains #3, 4 and 6, Artis - mandatory for anyone interested in Wellesz.  They can be heard HERE (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUzXoG2zEPcvcPKcp8f0m-OMd-9XaSstg).
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 16, 2014, 07:18:38 PM
I've been listening to the nine symphonies of Wellesz and I have been having a different reaction to other posters at this site.

The story I got before I listened from reading here and even from reading the CPO disks sleeve notes was that Wellesz wrote 4 or 5 symphonies that were in the Brucknerian mould, and then in his last symphonies went atonal and 12 note.

When I listened to the first 4 symphonies I found them very strange, they are not in the least Brucknerian, despite a few Brucknerian gestures and the obvious references to Bruckner's 2nd and 3rd Symphonies in No.3. I thought, if anything, that these symphonies harked back to an earlier Viennese period, although the influence of C20 neo-classicism was evident: Schubert meets Hindemidt, as you might say. There was none of the slow organic growth you get in the Bruckner symphonies.

I found them very well put together and easy to listen to, and enjoyable, but not particularly emotional. Sometimes I felt that they were a touch on the emotionally desiccated side.

When I got to the symphonies 5-9 I couldn't believe that these were atonal/12 note works. They didn't sound anything like avant garde music, they sounded quite a lot like the first 4 symphonies only a bit more crunchy and with fewer tunes.

I actually liked the symphonies 5-9 much more, here march rhythms, growling brass, sarcastic scherzi  and intense string cantilenas come to the fore. By the time Wellesz gets to No.9 he has reached a kind of expressionist angst that really communicates. The Violin Concerto, which I have also heard, also has this expressiveness. I'll be listening to the later symphonies more than the earlier ones I think.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 30, 2017, 04:16:04 PM
Just been listening to Wellesz' symphonies again and I have realised why I had the reaction to them I did.

Symphonies 1-4 are tonal, but they are uniquely non-contrapuntal. What you get is just a melody line with a non functioning bass, and very occasionally the odd bit of counterpoint or a perfunctory fugue. It's very strange, like listening to one strand of an actual symphony, not the whole. And it's disconcerting for someone like me me who agrees with Havergal Brian that 'good counterpoint is good composition', and it's the reason why I prefer the non-tonal symphonies 5-9 where at least the melodic line isn't so predictable or annoying.

I suppose that Wellesz' career as an academic specialising in Byzantine chant predisposed him to monody.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Maestro267 on January 10, 2022, 08:43:15 AM
Picked up the CPO set of the 9 symphonies today.

Any favourites among these for you?
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Spotted Horses on January 10, 2022, 09:07:42 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 30, 2017, 04:16:04 PM
Just been listening to Wellesz' symphonies again and I have realised why I had the reaction to them I did.

Symphonies 1-4 are tonal, but they are uniquely non-contrapuntal. What you get is just a melody line with a non functioning bass, and very occasionally the odd bit of counterpoint or a perfunctory fugue. It's very strange, like listening to one strand of an actual symphony, not the whole. And it's disconcerting for someone like me me who agrees with Havergal Brian that 'good counterpoint is good composition', and it's the reason why I prefer the non-tonal symphonies 5-9 where at least the melodic line isn't so predictable or annoying.

I suppose that Wellesz' career as an academic specialising in Byzantine chant predisposed him to monody.

This is an old post, but I would say there is absolutely nothing in this post that I can agree with. And really, he's no good because he doesn't follow Havergal Brian's dictum? That's like saying Steven Spielberg is a hack because he never studied the works of Ed Wood. :)

Quote from: Maestro267 on January 10, 2022, 08:43:15 AM
Picked up the CPO set of the 9 symphonies today.

Any favourites among these for you?

I started listening to the Wellesz set about 2 years ago, and got up to the fifth symphony before I got distracted. My listening notes indicate enthusiastic enjoyment of all of the symphonies I listened to. I seemed to have particularly appreciated the fifth, in which Wellesz begins using serial techniques.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Maestro267 on January 10, 2022, 12:53:14 PM
Listened to 2, 3, 6 and 8 today. The early symphonies I can hear the Bruckner link with blocks of sound and whatnot, but there's still colour and interest there with some unusual chord progressions in the chorales and the use of percussion which Bruckner avoided like the plague. Very melodic and pleasant listens. Looking forward to the rest, probably tomorrow.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on January 10, 2022, 01:55:26 PM
Wise choice that purchase. His 9 symphonies show an interesting development, where each is different to another.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: springrite on January 10, 2022, 04:35:48 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on January 10, 2022, 08:43:15 AM
Picked up the CPO set of the 9 symphonies today.

Any favourites among these for you?
I have the entire set. My personal favorites are 2, followed by 5. But it really depends on your taste and I am sure reactions from every listener will be different.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Spotted Horses on January 10, 2022, 06:43:32 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on January 10, 2022, 12:53:14 PM
Listened to 2, 3, 6 and 8 today. The early symphonies I can hear the Bruckner link with blocks of sound and whatnot, but there's still colour and interest there with some unusual chord progressions in the chorales and the use of percussion which Bruckner avoided like the plague. Very melodic and pleasant listens. Looking forward to the rest, probably tomorrow.

You are listening to all nine symphonies in two days? Wow. I spent two or three days digesting each individual symphony!
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Maestro267 on January 11, 2022, 12:48:59 AM
I go through each of them once before I return to them. Same way I deal with most symphony cycles.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Maestro267 on January 11, 2022, 11:52:16 AM
Very impressed with all of these works. There is something of interest in all of them. I went into the early symphonies expecting them to sound like Bruckner, a composer who is a bit hit-and-miss with me. But there is enough 20th-century harmonic exploration and colour to make them interesting to me.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: vandermolen on January 11, 2022, 12:28:10 PM
Quote from: springrite on January 10, 2022, 04:35:48 PM
I have the entire set. My personal favorites are 2, followed by 5. But it really depends on your taste and I am sure reactions from every listener will be different.
2 is my favourite as well.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: San Antone on January 11, 2022, 01:14:20 PM
I seem to remember reading that around the 4th Wellesz went through a stylistic change, and the symphonies written after the 4th were more atonal than the earlier ones.  But I haven't listened to the symphonies much, even though I own the complete set, since my main interest with Wellesz has been the string quartets and other chamber music, solo piano, as well as lieder.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Irons on January 11, 2022, 01:43:55 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on January 11, 2022, 12:48:59 AM
I go through each of them once before I return to them. Same way I deal with most symphony cycles.

A good plan.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on April 16, 2022, 05:40:09 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/6134yUQoWSL.jpg)

I was revisiting the 4th Symphony Austrian from the magnificent set above. What an extraordinary work this is. The sense of urgency in places is tremendous; there are many interesting ideas running throughout. A piece with personality that easily grips you from start to finish. The slow movement combines lyricism with a slight astringency that is quite effective. The recording can't be better. A really fascinating experience.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Maestro267 on April 17, 2022, 11:21:23 AM
The above post inspired me to listen to No. 4 again. One, I was surprised to find the symphony's goal to be G. Idk why. The opening of the first and last movements implied a tonal home of D. Also I was intrigued by that unusual chorale in the slow movement that started in B minor (with ominously growing-in-volume timpani strokes) and led back to that movement's home key of E flat major.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: relm1 on April 18, 2022, 05:18:47 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on April 16, 2022, 05:40:09 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/6134yUQoWSL.jpg)

I was revisiting the 4th Symphony Austrian from the magnificent set above. What an extraordinary work this is. The sense of urgency in places is tremendous; there are many interesting ideas running throughout. A piece with personality that easily grips you from start to finish. The slow movement combines lyricism with a slight astringency that is quite effective. The recording can't be better. A really fascinating experience.

Not familiar with the work.  Added to my listening list.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on April 18, 2022, 10:34:47 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 18, 2022, 05:18:47 AM
Not familiar with the work.  Added to my listening list.

His symphonies 1-5 (or 1 to 4?) are the more approachable ones. They're quite accomplished I must say.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Maestro267 on April 18, 2022, 11:09:40 AM
And the rest are approachable if you're already familiar with 20th century music.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: foxandpeng on April 19, 2022, 04:18:48 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on April 18, 2022, 10:34:47 AM
His symphonies 1-5 (or 1 to 4?) are the more approachable ones. They're quite accomplished I must say.

Thanks for this. I have never really spent any time with Wellesz, partly because there is so much other music out there, and partly because the style of the CPO covers have always made me erroneously believe his music belonged to an earlier period with which I have little engagement. I know now that it doesn't, so he is on my long 'to do' list. I will take your recs as a starting point.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on April 19, 2022, 06:58:25 PM
Please, do it when you can. These symphonies represent an important repertoire regarding late-Romantic and Serialist Austrian symphonies.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 20, 2022, 12:28:49 AM
Not enough polyphony for me.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on April 20, 2022, 01:17:48 PM
Surely Havergal Brian's symphonies do have more polyphony (and fine counterpoint) then, for instance.  :-X ::)
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 20, 2022, 06:08:37 PM
Yes, they do  ;D
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Maestro267 on April 22, 2022, 12:00:31 PM
Not a fan of Vaughan Williams then? He operates on a similar formula of blocks of sound.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on June 11, 2022, 07:06:44 PM
Currently diving into Wellesz's Symphony No. 3 from the splendid CPO set. Somehow I was reminded me of Tubin and Zemlinsky in the 1st movement. A quite vigorous beginning for sure.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 11, 2022, 08:21:48 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on April 22, 2022, 12:00:31 PM
Not a fan of Vaughan Williams then? He operates on a similar formula of blocks of sound.

He doesn't.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Maestro267 on June 13, 2022, 03:37:28 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 11, 2022, 08:21:48 PM
He doesn't.

He does.

Anyway, ignoring the apparent need to respond to something months old...Symphony No. 4 is excellent.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on May 29, 2025, 09:17:40 AM
Yet another very welcome CPO release. Crossing my fingers for the complete cycle of his quartets. To be released on 19 June:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTc3OTU2Mi4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE3NDgzNTQ2MDJ9)
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Der lächelnde Schatten on May 29, 2025, 12:40:47 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on May 29, 2025, 09:17:40 AMYet another very welcome CPO release. Crossing my fingers for the complete cycle of his quartets. To be released on 19 June:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTc3OTU2Mi4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE3NDgzNTQ2MDJ9)

A much-needed cycle to be recorded. Hopefully, CPO will make it happen. Thanks for the alert.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on May 29, 2025, 04:11:53 PM
Quote from: Der lächelnde Schatten on May 29, 2025, 12:40:47 PMA much-needed cycle to be recorded. Hopefully, CPO will make it happen. Thanks for the alert.

I didn't know that you like Wellesz's music, John, and yes, it's about time for that. I see that it's the same ensemble that performed Korngold's quartets on that label, so I suppose we are in safe hands.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Der lächelnde Schatten on May 29, 2025, 04:57:03 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on May 29, 2025, 04:11:53 PMI didn't know that you like Wellesz's music, John, and yes, it's about time for that. I see that it's the same ensemble that performed Korngold's quartets on that label, so I suppose we are in safe hands.

Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm a massive fan, but I do rather enjoy the symphonies and chamber music of his I've accumulated over the years.
Title: Re: Egon Wellesz(1885-1974)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on May 29, 2025, 07:15:43 PM
Quote from: Der lächelnde Schatten on May 29, 2025, 04:57:03 PMYeah, I wouldn't say I'm a massive fan, but I do rather enjoy the symphonies and chamber music of his I've accumulated over the years.

Good to hear, John!