Well, yet another visit to the local library today....and I made a great discovery!!
I grabbed a Hyperion label CD of a composer whose name I had never heard of. His name being Samuel Coleridge-Taylor, born in London, England.
I just finished listening to his Opus 1 Piano Quintet in G minor, and was floored!! It's fantastic.
The Nash Ensemble CD also includes the apparently wonderful Clarinet Quintet in F sharp minor, Op. 10, and the Ballade in C minor, Op. 73 for violin and piano.
He died of pneumonia at the young age of 37. Many of his works have only just been recently published.
I thought I'd start his own "Composer's Thread".
I would welcome any recommendations of his works and performances thereof, and any other information.
Hello Ray - :) On a long weekend trip to the Carolina shore, but brought a laptop along & have 'wireless' in the room (spouse is quite happy!).
Believe that I have that disc mentioned - CHECK HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg156719.html#msg156719) - just a few comments in the 'listening thread' - have not explored him any further since that post - so lookin' forward to more discussion here! Dave :)
Quote from: SonicMan on November 06, 2008, 04:22:23 PM
Hello Ray - :) On a long weekend trip to the Carolina shore, but brought a laptop along & have 'wireless' in the room (spouse is quite happy!).
Believe that I have that disc mentioned - CHECK HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg156719.html#msg156719) - just a few comments in the 'listening thread' - have not explored him any further since that post - so lookin' forward to more discussion here! Dave :)
Thanks for that link Dave. Yup, that's the one. Both the Piano Quintet and Clarinet Quintet are fantastic late romantic works. :)
Coleridge-Taylor's father was from Sierra Leone and his mother was English so he was known as the first British "black composer" and the "African Mahler".
His Oratorio "Hiawatha's Wedding Feast" used to be a staple of choral societies here and is a marvellously warm-hearted, lyrical work! It is the first part of a trilogy of oratorios called 'Scenes from The Song of Hiawatha' but the other two parts are not so memorable.
The Symphony in A minor(on a Classico cd) is pretty feeble, in my opinion, but the Violin Concerto has been recorded a number of times and is a very pleasant work in the Romantic tradition, Dvorakian I suppose you would call it(I have the Hyperion disc with Anthony Marwood as soloist, coupling is Arthur Somervell's Violin Concerto).
A fine composer whose life was sadly too short!
You, sir, have just got to hear his fabulous violin concerto - admittedly the outer movements are "typical" romantic-era stuff, but that slow movement is meltingly beautiful. One of those rare moments where I've thought, "Where has this music been all my life?!"
It's also worth seeking out W E B Du Bois' essay about Coleridge-Taylor, though his main concern is using C-T's life as an argument for racial equality. But an interesting account of his life and reception in Britain. :)
The Violin Concerto is indeed a delightful work....but don't forget to try 'Hiawatha's Wedding Feast' too :) You will be amazed at how such a tuneful and incredibly attractive work should have disappeared from the repertoire! For two or three decades it ranked with Handel's Messiah and Mendelssohn's Elijah as the most popular choral work in Britain.
Currently listening to Coleridge-Taylor's Violin Concerto for the first time:
http://www.youtube.com/v/5jnX_W4YWOU
This is the first piece of Coleridge-Taylor's music I have heard, and - Wow, this is absolutely beautiful music. So romantic, and so lyrical, charming and poetic. I really enjoyed this piece very much. So, what does everyone else think of his music? I barely see his name mentioned at all...
I am very keen to listen to more of his music! :)
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 16, 2012, 11:56:10 AM
Currently listening to Coleridge-Taylor's Violin Concerto for the first time:
This is the first piece of Coleridge-Taylor's music I have heard, and - Wow, this is absolutely beautiful music. So romantic, and so lyrical, charming and poetic. I really enjoyed this piece very much. So, what does everyone else think of his music? I barely see his name mentioned at all...
I am very keen to listen to more of his music! :)
The slow movement of that concerto is especially memorable! Nearly unforgettable in fact. I know there is also a Hyperion CD of his chamber music, which I heard many years ago on a library check-out but do not remember.
Quote from: Brian on September 16, 2012, 12:00:20 PM
The slow movement of that concerto is especially memorable! Nearly unforgettable in fact. I know there is also a Hyperion CD of his chamber music, which I heard many years ago on a library check-out but do not remember.
Oh, absolutely. The slow movement was exquisite. The piece has just come to an end, what a heartfelt ending full of desire and beauty. This really is a great work, I have really really enjoyed it, and am repeating sections now. Now to get everyone else to listen to it! ;)
Yes, on looking on amazon for his works, I see that Hyperion cd which looks tempting! I'll certainly be wanting to own a recording of the violin concerto, and that Naxos cd of his orchestral works looks very nice too. :)
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 16, 2012, 12:05:40 PM
Yes, on looking on amazon for his works, I see that Hyperion cd which looks tempting! I'll certainly be wanting to own a recording of the violin concerto, and that Naxos cd of his orchestral works looks very nice too. :)
They are both very good (if by Naxos you mean the Marco Polo disc).
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 16, 2012, 12:36:06 PM
They are both very good (if by Naxos you mean the Marco Polo disc).
Thanks for the feedback, Neal. Yes, this one:
[asin]B000004605[/asin]
Have had a listen to the Amazon excerpts, and they sound absolutely delightful. The
Hiawatha Overture in particular sounds very beautiful.
Also, in terms of the violin concerto, it is the Marwood (BBCSSO/Brabbins) that I have been listening to for the last 2 hours, which is absolutely wonderful. I see there are two other recordings, how do they compare? :)
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 16, 2012, 12:40:41 PM
Also, in terms of the violin concerto, it is the Marwood (BBCSSO/Brabbins) that I have been listening to for the last 2 hours, which is absolutely wonderful. I see there are two other recordings, how do they compare? :)
I have the recording from South Africa with Graffin, and it's quite good, but not so good that you should run out and buy it instead of Marwood's (especially since the pairing is the much more common Dvorak). I don't know the third recording, but McAslan is a very good violinist and the coupling of the Romance makes it tempting, since that is a good piece too.
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 16, 2012, 12:40:41 PM
Thanks for the feedback, Neal. Yes, this one:
[asin]B000004605[/asin]
Have had a listen to the Amazon excerpts, and they sound absolutely delightful. The Hiawatha Overture in particular sounds very beautiful.
Also, in terms of the violin concerto, it is the Marwood (BBCSSO/Brabbins) that I have been listening to for the last 2 hours, which is absolutely wonderful. I see there are two other recordings, how do they compare? :)
Hiawatha is excellent indeed. I have a couple more discs with wth a few of his pieces, but I've enjoyed absolutely everything I've heard.
Marwood is the only one I know. I've heard good things about the one on Lyrita.
Thanks Brian and Neal for the feedback. I'll probably get Marwood's first, I'm still listening to it on youtube after 3 hours!!! It's just such a beautiful work! :) Yes, I can imagine the McAslan being very good too, and as you say, Brian, the full Coleridge-Taylor programme makes it even more tempting.
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 16, 2012, 01:03:13 PM
Thanks Brian and Neal for the feedback. I'll probably get Marwood's first, I'm still listening to it on youtube after 3 hours!!! It's just such a beautiful work! :) Yes, I can imagine the McAslan being very good too, and as you say, Brian, the full Coleridge-Taylor programme makes it even more tempting.
Petite Suite is probably my second favorite after the concerto - you may have heard that one (it's on the Naxos disc). There is also a symphony that can be found separately or from this box (it's a student work, which may still interest you - I really enjoyed it):
[asin]B004VRXEXI[/asin]
Thanks for the feedback, Neal. Yes, I heard a few excerpts from the Petite Suite on Amazon, sounds like a delightful work! Shall also be interested to hear that symphony. :)
Currently listening to the violin concerto again, such an incredibly beautiful, exquisite work! :)
I have been listening to the violin concerto so much since discovering it a few days ago, always listening to the slow movement and the last few minutes of the finale. It's just such a divine, beautiful work! :) 0:)
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 19, 2012, 02:27:52 PM
I have been listening to the violin concerto so much since discovering it a few days ago, always listening to the slow movement and the last few minutes of the finale. It's just such a divine, beautiful work! :) 0:)
You may enjoy reading about him. Hyperion have two discs of his - the pdf files to the booklets are available at the site (including the violin concerto you have been enjoying).
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 19, 2012, 11:34:42 PM
You may enjoy reading about him. Hyperion have two discs of his - the pdf files to the booklets are available at the site (including the violin concerto you have been enjoying).
Neal, thank you very much for telling me of this. I shall make sure to take a look. :)
BOY, I made one post here back in 2008 - just had the
Piano & Clarinet Quintets, more recently, I added the
Violin Concerto & 24 Negro Melodies; today,
Hiawatha arrived (below quoted a post left in the listening thread) - I can see (i.e. hear) the popularity of this oratorio back then - mainly chorus w/ intermingled 'solos' (done well especially by Terfel); beautiful music; the 3 parts are: 1) Hiawatha's Wedding Feast; 2) The Death of Minnehaha; and 3) Hiawatha's Departure. Dave :)
QuoteColeridge-Taylor, Samuel (1875-1912) - Hiawatha w/ Kenneth Alwyn, Welsh Orchestra/Chorus, and three soloists, including Bryn Terfel - just finished the short Kindle bio on the composer ('Black Mahler' was a nicknamed given him on his first visit to America) below - his 3-part oratorio based on Henry Wadsworth Longfellow's writings seemed to have been one of the most popular choral works around England in the early 20th century - 2 CDs about 2 hrs long - purchased used off the Amazon MP - several short reviews reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=142688) - Dave :)
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-3BrnTwq/0/O/C_Taylor_Hiawatha.jpg) (http://www.blackmahler.com/wpimages/wpe1b68791_01_06.jpg)
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-LB6n7BL/0/O/CTaylor_ViolinConc.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-pft34m6/0/O/CTaylor_Piano.jpg)
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 30, 2014, 09:24:38 AM
BOY, I made one post here back in 2008 - just had the Piano & Clarinet Quintets, more recently, I added the Violin Concerto & 24 Negro Melodies; today, Hiawatha arrived (below quoted a post left in the listening thread) - I can see (i.e. hear) the popularity of this oratorio back then - mainly chorus w/ intermingled 'solos' (done well especially by Terfel); beautiful music; the 3 parts are: 1) Hiawatha's Wedding Feast; 2) The Death of Minnehaha; and 3) Hiawatha's Departure. Dave :)
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-LB6n7BL/0/O/CTaylor_ViolinConc.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-pft34m6/0/O/CTaylor_Piano.jpg)
I was particularly interested in your Hiawatha find as I really enjoy his works and have been adding a disc or two each year. I never realized the overture, which I know and love, had more to it. That looks like a very interesting one and it gets some great reviews too. It's been wishlisted.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 30, 2014, 11:32:42 AM
I was particularly interested in your Hiawatha find as I really enjoy his works and have been adding a disc or two each year. I never realized the overture, which I know and love, had more to it. That looks like a very interesting one and it gets some great reviews too. It's been wishlisted.
Hi
Neal - loved my first listening of
Hiawatha (need to wait until Susan is out of the house to 'pump up' the volume!) - now understand why the work was so popular - BTW, the book I mentioned previously is a cheap $2 Kindle purchase - it's 'historical fiction' (no references, footnotes, et al) and was based mainly on books & notes from his immediate family members - a very atmospheric presentation of late Victorian England and for me a much clearer picture of this choral trilogy's reasons for popularity. Dave :)
to be correct, the NY musicians gave him the nickname "African Mahler" ...
Chamber Works with Opus number, where assigned:
1 Pf Qnt, g, c1893, unpubd
— Cl Sonata, f, c1893, unpubd
2 Nonet, f, pf, vn, va, vc, db, ob, cl, hn, bn, 1893, unpubd
3 Suite de [4] pièces, vn, pf/org, 1893: Pastorale, Cavatina, Barcarolle, Contemplation
— Pf Trio, e, 1893, unpubd
— Sonata, c, pf, ?1893
5 [5] Fantasiestücke, str qt, 1895 (1922): Prelude, Serenade, Humoreske, Minuet, Dance
9 2 Romantic Pieces, vn, pf, ?1895: Lament, Merrymaking
10 Cl Qnt, f (Leipzig, 1895)
13 Str Qt, d, 1896, unpubd
16 [3] Hiawathan Sketches, vn, pf, 1896: A Tale, A Song, A Dance
19 2 Moorish Tone-Pictures, pf (1897): Andalla, Zarifa
19/1 2 Oriental Waltzes, pf (1905)
20 Gipsy Suite, 4 pieces, vn, pf (1897): Lament and Tambourine, A Gipsy Song, A Gipsy Dance, Waltz
23 Valse Caprice, vn, pf (1898)
28 Vn Sonata, d, ?1898, ed. A. Sammons (1917)
31 Humoresques, pf, 1897: D, g, A
— 3 Short Pieces, org (1898): Melody, Elegy, Arietta
35 African Suite, pf (1898): 1 Introduction, 2 A Negro Love Song, 3 A Valse, 4 Dance nègre [no.4 originally for pf, str qt]
38 3 Silhouettes, pf, 1897: Valse, Tambourine, Lament
41/2 Nourmahal's Song and Dance, pf (1900)
55 Moorish Dance, pf (1904)
56 [3] Cameos, pf (1904): F, d, G
58 4 African Dances, vn, pf (1904): g, F, A, d
59/2 Romance, vn, pf (1904)
64 [4] Scènes de ballet, pf (1906): C, A, A, B
66 [5] Forest Scenes, pf (1907): The lone forest maiden, The phantom lover arrives,
The phantom tells his tale of longing, Erstwhile they ride – the forest maiden
— Papillon, pf (1908)
71 Three-fours, Valse Suite, pf (1909): a, A, g, D, E, c
73 Ballade, c, vn, pf, Leeds, 29 Oct 1907
— Variations on an Original Theme, vc, Croydon, 30 Nov 1907, unpubd
— 2 Impromptus, pf (1911): A, b
78 3 Impromptus, org (1913): F, C, a
— Variations, b, vc, pf (1918)
— Interlude, org
I know the String Quartet was rescued somehow and issued on CD.
I was certain with orchestras making a big diversity push in programming, that we would see more of
Samuel Coleridge-Taylor. In my area though, none so far. A little bit of
Florence Price,
William Grant Still,
Duke Ellington, and some others.
Aside from
Hiawatha, I do like his
Symphonic Varations on an African Air, op. 63, which wafts a bit of a Dvořák-ian aroma. It doesn't hit the same heights as Dvořák, but it is well worth knowing.
Quote from: VonStupp on June 19, 2021, 02:59:40 PM
Samuel Coleridge-Taylor
The Song of Hiawatha, op. 30
Helen Field, Arthur Davies, Bryn Terfel
Welsh National Opera Chorus & Orchestra - Kenneth Alwyn
Symphonic Varations on an African Air, op. 63
Royal Liverpool Philharmonic - Grant Llewellyn
(https://ia801408.us.archive.org/29/items/mbid-f9917a48-44fd-4597-83c0-a4c3060e11a0/mbid-f9917a48-44fd-4597-83c0-a4c3060e11a0-29658745733.jpg)
A bit of a dusty Victorian oratorio, Hiawatha is 3 Acts and nearly 2 hours of wall-to-wall, robust symphonic choral singing, following a small portion of Longfellow's epic poem. With orchestras scrambling to push diversity into their programming, I wonder if we will see any of this music appear again.
'Hiawatha's Wedding Feast' is the more popular section; all of his countless modulations are exciting, but the tenor solo sounds like an orchestrated parlour song to me. It is too bad no one records the other sections - 'Death of Minnehaha' and 'Hiawatha's Departure'. Coleridge-Taylor carries some pretty decent melodic themes throughout the runtime. The Act II tale is more tragic opposite the opening's celebrations, and the final Act is a decent feature for Helen Field and Bryn Terfel.
I was unfamiliar with Coleridge-Taylor's Symphonic Variations on an African Air, and this is where I can hear the similarities made with Dvořák. His small output of orchestral music seems assured for such a short life, not to mention what I assume was a tough station to hold in his life.
It's good that the one truly complete recording of this oratorio is such a good one from these Welsh ensembles. I don't know how much I will return to it, but I enjoyed my time listening.
Quote from: VonStupp on July 13, 2021, 09:32:25 AM
I was certain with orchestras making a big diversity push in programming, that we would see more of Samuel Coleridge-Taylor. In my area though, none so far. A little bit of Florence Price, William Grant Still, Duke Ellington, and some others.
Aside from Hiawatha, I do like his Symphonic Varations on an African Air, op. 63, which wafts a bit of a Dvořák-ian aroma. It doesn't hit the same heights as Dvořák, but it is well worth knowing.
At the risk of offending people my ears objectively tell me that Coleridge-Taylor is a competent not great composer. But I'd say the same about Florence Price. Duke Ellington is clearly a different case/calibre - who once said that Duke Ellington was America's greatest composer? I do understand that there are elements of discrimination against these composers on account of race or gender and as such their struggle against that is to be celebrated. But a hundred years later we are left with the Art itself not the context of its creation. Is later Beethoven even better than it is because he was deaf or do we just accept it as great? Do we sit there saying of the late string quartets; "they are even better than you think they are because the guy who wrote them couldn't hear a note". I'd say not. I understand this is a touchy and sensitive subject but that is not a reason to avoid a debate......
The cynical side of me says this music is now being programmed NOT because anyone thinks it is of especial merit but simply to be seen to be programming it and therefore promoting the idea that CM is inclusive and relevant. I'm not saying for a second that the historical fact that people were marginalised on the basis of race or gender was a good thing but it is simply how it was. We have to change things going forward , we cannot be hostages to history - instead we should learn from it. Saying CM is the provenance of dead white men is a bit like saying organised religion - any religion - was the domain of influential educated men too. It was - learn from that, change things and move forward.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 13, 2021, 12:28:16 PM
At the risk of offending people my ears objectively tell me that Coleridge-Taylor is a competent not great composer. But I'd say the same about Florence Price. Duke Ellington is clearly a different case/calibre - who once said that Duke Ellington was America's greatest composer? I do understand that there are elements of discrimination against these composers on account of race or gender and as such their struggle against that is to be celebrated. But a hundred years later we are left with the Art itself not the context of its creation. Is later Beethoven even better than it is because he was deaf or do we just accept it as great? Do we sit there saying of the late string quartets; "they are even better than you think they are because the guy who wrote them couldn't hear a note". I'd say not. I understand this is a touchy and sensitive subject but that is not a reason to avoid a debate......
The cynical side of me says this music is now being programmed NOT because anyone thinks it is of especial merit but simply to be seen to be programming it and therefore promoting the idea that CM is inclusive and relevant. I'm not saying for a second that the historical fact that people were marginalised on the basis of race or gender was a good thing but it is simply how it was. We have to change things going forward , we cannot be hostages to history - instead we should learn from it. Saying CM is the provenance of dead white men is a bit like saying organised religion - any religion - was the domain of influential educated men too. It was - learn from that, change things and move forward.
Your ears aren't deceiving you, I, too, find Coleridge-Taylor's music to be well-crafted, but that's about it. Whether he was black, white, purple, orange, green...is irrelevant to me.
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 13, 2021, 12:34:59 PM
Your ears aren't deceiving you, I, too, find Coleridge-Taylor's music to be well-crafted, but that's about it. Whether he was black, white, purple, orange, green...is irrelevant to me.
It would probably be music by aliens, and I would be eager to listen to it! ;D
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on July 13, 2021, 01:13:54 PM
It would probably be music by aliens, and I would be eager to listen to it! ;D
Me, too! :D
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 13, 2021, 12:28:16 PM
At the risk of offending people my ears objectively tell me that Coleridge-Taylor is a competent not great composer. But I'd say the same about Florence Price. Duke Ellington is clearly a different case/calibre - who once said that Duke Ellington was America's greatest composer? I do understand that there are elements of discrimination against these composers on account of race or gender and as such their struggle against that is to be celebrated. But a hundred years later we are left with the Art itself not the context of its creation. Is later Beethoven even better than it is because he was deaf or do we just accept it as great? Do we sit there saying of the late string quartets; "they are even better than you think they are because the guy who wrote them couldn't hear a note". I'd say not. I understand this is a touchy and sensitive subject but that is not a reason to avoid a debate......
The cynical side of me says this music is now being programmed NOT because anyone thinks it is of especial merit but simply to be seen to be programming it and therefore promoting the idea that CM is inclusive and relevant. I'm not saying for a second that the historical fact that people were marginalized on the basis of race or gender was a good thing but it is simply how it was. We have to change things going forward , we cannot be hostages to history - instead we should learn from it. Saying CM is the provenance of dead white men is a bit like saying organized religion - any religion - was the domain of influential educated men too. It was - learn from that, change things and move forward.
Perhaps, but looking at this years' live programs, I get to hear more Beethoven symphonies for the umpteenth time (oddly no Bruckner or Mahler scheduled yet). I love Beethoven, Mahler, and Bruckner, and I know the orchestras need to get posteriors in seats right now, but a little variety speaks to me in volumes. If that means programming for diversity sake, I would be more eager to hear competent Coleridge-Taylor thrown in over yet another round of greatest hits. Maybe that is where recordings bridge the gap from attending live performances, and perhaps I am the only one thinking that when I attend live. ;D
Quote from: VonStupp on July 13, 2021, 02:18:56 PM
Perhaps, but looking at this years' live programs, I get to hear more Beethoven symphonies for the umpteenth time (oddly no Bruckner or Mahler scheduled yet). I love Beethoven, Mahler, and Bruckner, and I know the orchestras need to get posteriors in seats right now, but a little variety speaks to me in volumes. If that means programming for diversity sake, I would be more eager to hear competent Coleridge-Taylor thrown in over yet another round of greatest hits. Maybe that is where recordings bridge the gap from attending live performances, and perhaps I am the only one thinking that when I attend live. ;D
I'm ALL for diversity of programming - but as mentioned here before there are many very very fine composers NEVER played at the Proms - take just about ALL the Latin American composers for example. I would feel on purely musical merit that type of composer deserves attention more than Coleridge-Taylor
Quote from: Brian on May 25, 2024, 06:35:31 AM(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTYyODg4Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE3MTYzODY1OTZ9)
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTYzMTE4Ni4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE3MTY1NTkzNDB9)
Smetana - Trio
Coleridge-Taylor - Five Melodies
Suk - Petit Trio Op. 2
Martin - Trio
-
also, Hanssler is releasing a Frank Peter Zimmermann box featuring their recordings with him of the complete Mozart concertos + Sinfonia concertante (with Antoine Tamestit), the Bach concertos, and the Beethoven concerto. 4 CDs
Quite how Coleridge-Taylor - a talented composer but of essentially modest merit - fits in with genuinely great composers - Suk/Smetana/Martin I am not sure. Except because there seems to be a need to virtue-signal and include such composers in a manner disproportionate to the quality of their music.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 25, 2024, 08:00:37 AMQuite how Coleridge-Taylor - a talented composer but of essentially modest merit - fits in with genuinely great composers - Suk/Smetana/Martin I am not sure. Except because there seems to be a need to virtue-signal and include such composers in a manner disproportionate to the quality of their music.
Yes, it's been a disturbing trend in classical music lately. The greatest offender is Florence Price or rather the need to elevate her as some kind of "great" composer, but the reality, for me at least, is everything I've heard from her, I would never want to hear again.
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 25, 2024, 08:02:57 AMYes, it's been a disturbing trend in classical music lately. The greatest offender is Florence Price or rather the need to elevate her as some kind of "great" composer, but the reality, for me at least, is everything I've heard from her, I would never want to hear again.
I wouldn't worry about it. There are many great composers I'm not bothered about while other people even love movie soundtracks ;) . They all have their niche audiences 8) .
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 25, 2024, 08:00:37 AMQuite how Coleridge-Taylor - a talented composer but of essentially modest merit - fits in with genuinely great composers - Suk/Smetana/Martin I am not sure. Except because there seems to be a need to virtue-signal and include such composers in a manner disproportionate to the quality of their music.
Everyone's tastes vary. My ears tell me "talented composer of modest merit" are apt descriptions of Suk, Smetana, and Martin. Or to put it less provocatively, Coleridge-Taylor was just as good as them.
Quote from: JBS on May 25, 2024, 08:29:11 AMEveryone's tastes vary. My ears tell me "talented composer of modest merit" are apt descriptions of Suk, Smetana, and Martin. Or to put it less provocatively, Coleridge-Taylor was just as good as them.
Remind of the works by Coleridge Taylor of the stature of;
Asrael/Ripening etc. etc.
Bartered Bride/String Quartet No.1/Piano Trio/Ma Vlast etc. etc.
Golgotha/Le Vin herbé/In terra pax etc. etc.
All three were arguably at the time of their creative lives their country's greatest composer. Would we say the same of Coleridge Taylor? The thing is I genuinely really
like C-T's music but to inflate its stature annoys me.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 25, 2024, 08:47:14 AMThe thing is I genuinely really like C-T's music but to inflate its stature annoys me.
How is his stature inflated by inclusion in a mixed rep Chandos recording?
Quote from: Todd on May 25, 2024, 08:51:18 AMHow is his stature inflated by inclusion in a mixed rep Chandos recording?
Its not this specific recording alone - it a general narrative.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 25, 2024, 08:53:39 AMIts not this specific recording alone - it a general narrative.
What general narrative? Coleridge-Taylor is as much a nobody today as he was a decade ago and will be a decade hence. The same holds true for pretty much every non-great composer - and the only composer on the disc in question who is or comes close to great is Smetana, and that is on the basis of one opera and one set of tone poems and two string quartets. I enjoy Suk and Martin, but they are not great composers.
It is always nice to see lesser-known composers pop up on recordings precisely because they are lesser known. Exploring such music is rewarding for its own sake.
Quote from: Todd on May 25, 2024, 09:02:04 AMWhat general narrative? Coleridge-Taylor is as much a nobody today as he was a decade ago and will be a decade hence. The same holds true for pretty much every non-great composer - and the only composer on the disc in question who is or comes close to great is Smetana, and that is on the basis of one opera and one set of tone poems and two string quartets. I enjoy Suk and Martin, but they are not great composers.
It is always nice to see lesser-known composers pop up on recordings precisely because they are lesser known. Exploring such music is rewarding for its own sake.
Re Smetana - your comment does not apply if you are Czech for whom he is the father of Czech music - Libuse/Dalibor etc etc....
Re Coleridge Taylor - here is a recent BBC Classical Music list of the 25 "Greatest British COmposers of
ALL TIME" (My bolding!):
https://www.classical-music.com/features/composers/best-british-composers
On this list C-T is 23 - which is patently absurd (no room for Bax or Ireland or Delius and many others) - this is the kind of narrative I mean. Ethel Smyth does make the list plus Helen Grime - who I have never heard of..... laugh or weep you decide.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 25, 2024, 09:15:12 AMRe Smetana - your comment does not apply if you are Czech for whom he is the father of Czech music - Libuse/Dalibor etc etc....
The narrowness of your assertion does not lend itself to supporting inflated claims of Smetana's greatness.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 25, 2024, 09:15:12 AMRe Coleridge Taylor - here is a recent BBC Classical Music list of the 25 "Greatest British COmposers of ALL TIME" (My bolding!):
So? How many people read that publication, believe it, retain the information, base purchasing decisions on it, and base concert and recital programming on it? Coleridge-Taylor is obscure even on this forum, which revels in obscurity. I looked up the thread devoted to the composer, and the last post is a complaint from you from several years ago. That puts your current posts in a broader context.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 25, 2024, 09:15:12 AMRe Coleridge Taylor - here is a recent BBC Classical Music list of the 25 "Greatest British Composers of ALL TIME" (My bolding!):
Are there as many as that?! ;)
Quote from: steve ridgway on May 25, 2024, 09:36:45 AMAre there as many as that?! ;)
Good Answer!! (probably not). In truth although Bax is my favourite composer I'm not sure I'd call him great. To my mind musical greatness goes beyond individual technical skill or individuality (Bax has both of those in spades) but involves enduring influence and impact - neither of which Bax (or Delius or Ireland etc etc) have. But I still love 'em all!!
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 25, 2024, 08:47:14 AMThe thing is I genuinely really like C-T's music but to inflate its stature annoys me.
Quote from: Todd on May 25, 2024, 08:51:18 AMHow is his stature inflated by inclusion in a mixed rep Chandos recording?
I have to side with Todd here - the whole point of a mixed-repertoire program is to mix repertoire, and very naturally many or most such programs will include composers of varying greatness. The artists may have some artistic reason that they feel the music belongs together. They may explain it in the booklet. Maybe the music sounds good together. We don't know! But there are
so many more reasons to account for including a 15-minute work - as filler!! - than that the performers found some piece to fulfill a media narrative.
Even to capture media attention - they don't need to do that because Chandos already gets big reviews in the British press for everything they do.
I guess my bigger question for you, as a person who (like me) likes C-T's, music, is: how would you tell the difference between the "correct" way to record his music and the "inflated" way? Would you accept a new recording of his Violin Concerto coupled to the Delius but object to a recording coupled to the Elgar?
Quote from: Brian on May 25, 2024, 12:47:41 PMI have to side with Todd here - the whole point of a mixed-repertoire program is to mix repertoire, and very naturally many or most such programs will include composers of varying greatness. The artists may have some artistic reason that they feel the music belongs together. They may explain it in the booklet. Maybe the music sounds good together. We don't know! But there are so many more reasons to account for including a 15-minute work - as filler!! - than that the performers found some piece to fulfill a media narrative.
Even to capture media attention - they don't need to do that because Chandos already gets big reviews in the British press for everything they do.
I guess my bigger question for you, as a person who (like me) likes C-T's, music, is: how would you tell the difference between the "correct" way to record his music and the "inflated" way? Would you accept a new recording of his Violin Concerto coupled to the Delius but object to a recording coupled to the Elgar?
Good points all. Personally I would say the C-T concerto does not require
any more recordings because the work has had sufficient (good) performances that its quality deserves. Where is a recording of W H Reed's concerto for example instead - now that might be an interesting coupling with the Elgar!
The 1st recording of the C-T concerto was genuinely revelatory and rather wonderful because it
is an attractive work that deserves to be heard. But it is also a relatively minor concerto in the grander scheme. So let's not simply bash out more recordings of the piece because of the back-story of the composer. Personally I find it hard to believe that on this new disc this work is included because it is the best possible coupling/filler for this collection of Suk/Smetana/Martin but rather because C-T is a "flavour of the year" and
might increase sales/publicity by its inclusion. As such if this is a commercial decision I'm fine with that. Just don't pretend it's because the music is of particular merit. I'm sure it will be well written, well crafted and attractive. But so is a
lot of other music too.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 25, 2024, 02:29:04 PMGood points all. Personally I would say the C-T concerto does not require any more recordings because the work has had sufficient (good) performances that its quality deserves. Where is a recording of W H Reed's concerto for example instead - now that might be an interesting coupling with the Elgar!
The 1st recording of the C-T concerto was genuinely revelatory and rather wonderful because it is an attractive work that deserves to be heard. But it is also a relatively minor concerto in the grander scheme. So let's not simply bash out more recordings of the piece because of the back-story of the composer. Personally I find it hard to believe that on this new disc this work is included because it is the best possible coupling/filler for this collection of Suk/Smetana/Martin but rather because C-T is a "flavour of the year" and might increase sales/publicity by its inclusion. As such if this is a commercial decision I'm fine with that. Just don't pretend it's because the music is of particular merit. I'm sure it will be well written, well crafted and attractive. But so is a lot of other music too.
Good points likewise. I just looked the concerto up - six recordings! That really is an astonishing/excessive number. I only knew Marwood and Tasmin Little. I also looked up the piano trio on the new disc - appears to be a world premiere; there is no rival listed on Presto.
I guess the question of how many recordings a work should receive is so large and abstract that I usually don't hold an opinion on it besides the blanket suggestion of "one more - if it's great." As is the question of what gets recorded at all - honestly sometimes, with labels like CPO around, I feel like eventually they will get around to everything.
What I am curious about is why this conversation erupted over a (seeming) world premiere of a minor but nice composer, vs., say, last month, when Ondine announced they are recording a new Ferdinand Ries symphony cycle to compete with the CPO version. Or if it will recur next month, when Bavarian Radio releases (according to Presto) the 17th CD recording of Bruckner's Mass No. 3, and also next month, the 7th Frank Bridge Oration, the 2nd Kenneth Fuchs bass trombone concerto, and the 2nd Zemlinsky Florentine Tragedy
this year alone (the last came out in April, and two came out in 2014).
Quote from: Roasted Swan on May 25, 2024, 02:29:04 PMGood points all. Personally I would say the C-T concerto does not require any more recordings
You will now be forever associated in my mind with the Great Coleridge-Taylor Glut of 2024, just like Mirror Image is forever linked with Delius. >:D
Quote from: Daverz on May 25, 2024, 04:46:18 PMYou will now be forever associated in my mind with the Great Coleridge-Taylor Glut of 2024, just like Mirror Image is forever linked with Delius. >:D
I am honoured. Many years ago I arranged C-T's Petite Suite de Concert for my string quartet - the transcription works really well (though I say it myself!). Demande et Reponse is one of the most tranquil and beautiful things I know
Quote from: Brian on May 25, 2024, 04:41:51 PMWhat I am curious about is why this conversation erupted over a (seeming) world premiere of a minor but nice composer, vs., say, last month, when Ondine announced they are recording a new Ferdinand Ries symphony cycle to compete with the CPO version. Or if it will recur next month, when Bavarian Radio releases (according to Presto) the 17th CD recording of Bruckner's Mass No. 3, and also next month, the 7th Frank Bridge Oration, the 2nd Kenneth Fuchs bass trombone concerto, and the 2nd Zemlinsky Florentine Tragedy this year alone (the last came out in April, and two came out in 2014).
Well, I'd much rather have any of those recordings than the 63829472th Beethoven symphony cycle! Though I do (partially) agree regarding the new Ries symphony cycle on Ondine. The CPO cycle already boasts terrific performances and sound, and the symphonies aren't Ries' most distinctive works anyways (those would be his chamber works).
Regarding Coleridge-Taylor, sure, he may not have been a "major" composer but his best works exhibit a freshness and melodic memorability. He's been referred to as the "Black Mahler" but his music is much closer to, say, Dvorak in spirit. I can confidently recommend this recent Chandos (Todd's favorite label ;)) disc of his Nonet, Piano Trio and Piano Quintet:
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTMyODk2My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NTI5NDU4NTR9)
The Piano Trio is pretty "small beer" if I recall, but the Piano Quintet and Nonet (Op. 1 and 2, respectively) are both unfailingly melodious and attractive. And the performances by the Kaleidoscope Chamber Collective are supremely characterful, with liberal use of
portamenti by the string players (which I love).
Other favorite Coleridge-Taylor works of mine are his Violin Concerto, Clarinet Quintet, and Ballade in A minor for orchestra. It would be interesting to see what he would have accomplished had he lived longer...
Quote from: kyjo on May 29, 2024, 11:42:19 AMWell, I'd much rather have any of those recordings than the 63829472th Beethoven symphony cycle! Though I do (partially) agree regarding the new Ries symphony cycle on Ondine. The CPO cycle already boasts terrific performances and sound, and the symphonies aren't Ries' most distinctive works anyways (those would be his chamber works).
Regarding Coleridge-Taylor, sure, he may not have been a "major" composer but his best works exhibit a freshness and melodic memorability. He's been referred to as the "Black Mahler" but his music is much closer to, say, Dvorak in spirit. I can confidently recommend this recent Chandos (Todd's favorite label ;)) disc of his Nonet, Piano Trio and Piano Quintet:
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTMyODk2My4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NTI5NDU4NTR9)
The Piano Trio is pretty "small beer" if I recall, but the Piano Quintet and Nonet (Op. 1 and 2, respectively) are both unfailingly melodious and attractive. And the performances by the Kaleidoscope Chamber Collective are supremely characterful, with liberal use of portamenti by the string players (which I love).
Other favorite Coleridge-Taylor works of mine are his Violin Concerto, Clarinet Quintet, and Ballade in A minor for orchestra. It would be interesting to see what he would have accomplished had he lived longer...
That's a fine disc of chamber works amd well played too.
I remember the Nonet in particular being absolutely wonderful. Will listen again tomorrow after this prompt, thank you!
+1 for the Nonet. This is what I would call top-notch C-T.
I have only heard one piece by him (Violin Concerto). But am I right in thinking that Coleridge-Taylor's most famous piece and the one that his reputation is built has not a single mention on this interesting thread, Hiawatha's Wedding Feast?
Quote from: Irons on May 29, 2024, 11:53:06 PMI have only heard one piece by him (Violin Concerto). But am I right in thinking that Coleridge-Taylor's most famous piece and the one that his reputation is built has not a single mention on this interesting thread, Hiawatha's Wedding Feast?
Yes of course - with "on away awake beloved" the big hit number. The complete Hiawatha trilogy was recorded on Argo with a young Bryn Terfel in the lead. It makes the most of its strengths and exposes its weaknesses. In many ways for me that is the work that most clearly demonstrates C-T's essential Victorian traditionalness - its all a bit twee and moralising.
The oddest thing about Hiawatha is the annual "stagings" of it at the Royal Albert Hall in the 1920's overseen by Sir Malcolm Sargent years after C-T's death. All these very middle class British suburbanites running around pretending to be Red Indians (in the parlance of the time....)
(https://momh.org.uk/wp-content/themes/yootheme/cache/80/lrg-723-80a70e05.jpeg)(https://media.gettyimages.com/id/3321288/photo/the-cast-of-hiawatha-at-rehearsal-in-the-royal-albert-hall.jpg?s=612x612&w=gi&k=20&c=ExJHpk-BmGj5OHWb7kvnitIL5eKN4wG8srBnIbQz37M=)
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 13, 2021, 12:28:16 PMwho once said that Duke Ellington was America's greatest composer?
Percy Grainger made a list of the 10 greatest composers which implies just that - in no.1 position was Bach, but after that it gets a bit more original, with Delius at no.2 and Ellington at 3. P.A. Grainger himself only comes in at a rather disappointing 9th.