I have been enamoured with his cello concerto since the recording was released last year. I have just ordered the piano concertos and a fairly recent Naxos CD of the solo piano music. Any fans here?
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I should think so, yes. I have all the CPO discs available with his music. One of my discoveries last year. :)
Yes......ME ;D ;D
I bought the symphonies as they came out(surprise-me buying symphonies, whatever next? ;D). The couplings are Nos. 1 and 2, Nos. 3 and 5, and No.4 with the Violin Concerto.
Splendid works by a composer of great substance; a towering figure in Turkish music, of course, but one who merits discovery in the rest of the world. Saygun was a kind of Turkish Bartok, ie he spent a huge amount of time collecting Turkish folk music and incorporating some of it into his scores.
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Oct02/Saygun_Ahmed_Adnan.htm
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/july04/Saygun35.htm
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2005/Aug05/saygun4_7770432.htm
The Musicweb review of the third disc says that those who like 'Berg, Hartmann and Alwyn' will enjoy Saygun ;D Kind of odd mixture you might think but the modal passages in Saygun's music do sometimes recall some British composers while the more (gentle) dissonances are indeed reminiscent of early Hartmann.
Explore :)
Quote from: Harry on November 12, 2008, 09:05:53 AM
I should think so, yes. I have all the CPO discs available with his music. One of my discoveries last year. :)
Same here. I find Saygun fascinating. My favorite recording so far is the CPO of his string quartets.
Those who enjoy Bartok's piano music shoud try out Saygun's. Didn't know there is a Naxos disc, Sonatine is superb but my favorite would be Ten Etudes on Aksak Rhythms op.38 (aksak = crippled = irregular). Don't think they are included on Naxos, so here is one for those who are curious:
Ten Etudes on Aksak Rhythms Op.38 No.1
Hande Dalkiliç (piano) on Turkish label BMP
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/24/2018019/Saygun%20-%20Ten%20Etudes%20on%20Aksak%20Ryhthms%20op.38%20no.1.mp3[/mp3]
Thank you, Drasko. The first Saygun I ever heard. And certainly not the last.
Well, starting to 'explore' this composer myself - have just two CPO discs, i.e. String Quartets & Cello/Viola Concertos; the Symphonies are on my 'wish list' but have not taken the plunge - will certainly follow this thread w/ interest - :)
Here is my Saygun recommendation. A very enjoyable CD with its eastern and western influences:
I started off last night with Symphonies 3 and 5 (without researching first). I very much enjoyed them, but was a little dissappointed that I couldn't discern very much Turkish influence. In the same way that I had first heard Chavez (his fourth) and not recognize his nationality (in fact I was on the wrong continent), I had the same problem with this disk. Now that I have spent the time to read some of the notes on the links you have provided, I will go back to Symphonies 1 and 2. Don't get me wrong though, these are a treasure!
Quote from: Sef on November 13, 2008, 07:07:13 AM
I started off last night with Symphonies 3 and 5 (without researching first). I very much enjoyed them, but was a little dissappointed that I couldn't discern very much Turkish influence. In the same way that I had first heard Chavez (his fourth) and not recognize his nationality (in fact I was on the wrong continent), I had the same problem with this disk. Now that I have spent the time to read some of the notes on the links you have provided, I will go back to Symphonies 1 and 2. Don't get me wrong though, these are a treasure!
Glad you enjoyed them! That is the main thing :)
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 13, 2008, 07:30:00 AM
Glad you enjoyed them! That is the main thing :)
Listened to 1 and 2 today. You can hear the eastern influence more in the second, but it's subtle. The second movement of the first is wonderfully dark and threatening!
So far the only works I've heard from Saygun are his piano concertos (in an earlier Koch recording) and his string quartets. All of them indicate that Bartok is a big influence, the piano concertos especially, but the works are all good. Indeed, the string quartets are extremely good, and the Danel play them splendidly. I believe I should check out his symphonies soon.
Thought he deserved a photo:
(slight Vaughan Williams resemblance)
Quote from: Todd on November 14, 2008, 09:38:14 AM
So far the only works I've heard from Saygun are his piano concertos (in an earlier Koch recording) and his string quartets. All of them indicate that Bartok is a big influence, the piano concertos especially, but the works are all good. Indeed, the string quartets are extremely good, and the Danel play them splendidly. I believe I should check out his symphonies soon.
Wondered whether you'd got round to this yet? Symphony 1 and 2 are quite the most often listened to CD in my house right now. Even my daughter (Cello player) professed a liking for the first symphony, saying that she'd love to play it. Not much chance of that I suppose!
Quote from: Sef on December 19, 2008, 02:28:58 PM
Wondered whether you'd got round to this yet? Symphony 1 and 2 are quite the most often listened to CD in my house right now. Even my daughter (Cello player) professed a liking for the first symphony, saying that she'd love to play it. Not much chance of that I suppose!
Yes, this is a very good CD and your post has encouraged me to play it now. The haunting slow movement of Symphony No 1 is a particular favourite.
Quote from: vandermolen on December 19, 2008, 02:41:55 PM
Yes, this is a very good CD and your post has encouraged me to play it now. The haunting slow movement of Symphony No 1 is a particular favourite.
Yes, that's the movement my daughter was listening to - sends shivers down my spine.
Quote from: Sef on December 19, 2008, 02:28:58 PMWondered whether you'd got round to this yet?
Partially. I picked up two Saygun discs, one with his violin concerto and Symphony 4 (which I mentioned in my "new" music thread), and his viola and cello concertos, which are both excellent. I'll be gathering up some more Saygun CDs in the near future.
Another Saygun fan here. Some ten years ago, before CPO launched its series with the symphonies and concertos, Saygun's music was only to be found on a few odd Koch Schwan CDs - e.g. one with both piano concertos, as on the new CPO CD, and both highly enjoyable imho - some OUP Hungarotons (e.g. his epic oratorio Yunus Emre from 1946) and a few Turkish releases.
When in Istanbul, I even found some in bookstore Pandora, up in Taksim, including his first opera Özsoy (1934, the first Turkish national opera ever) written by the young composer at a special request by Atatürk on the occasion of a state visit by the Shah of Persia, another 'Westernizer' of that era.
In 1936 he worked as an amanuensis for Béla Bartók during his field trip to eastern Anatolia, collecting folk music. Both Bartók (much later) and Saygun published a book about the journey and their findings. I read both books, and learnt how much Saygun was indeed influenced by the Hungarian master, in the first stage of his career.
I admire his symphonies and concertos, especially. Would love to read about other people's experiences with them. :)
I've been very impressed with the CPO discs with the Symphonies and the Violin Concerto. I guess the other concertos are next.
Another photo (slight Honegger resemblance ;))
(http://www.beethovenlives.net/Turk/portre1.jpg)
Only now I realize, that his portrait reminds me more of Radovan Karadžić (not far away from here, in a prison cell in The Hague) ....
(http://www.musikidergisi.net/resimler/saygun2.jpg)
Good grief...so it does! :o
I had my first exposure to Saygun yesterday, in the CPO recording of his symphony No 1.
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A very rewarding experience. Fascinating music, an amalgum of eastern and western elements. I particularly enjoyed the way the (apparently rather small) orchestra was taken advantage of. Performance and recorded sound are outstanding. I'll be listening to more of this series soon.
Listening to the first movement of the First Symphony on YouTube now. I like it! I remember hearing some piano music by this composer some time ago that I did not like...so, I suppose I didn't care to hear more. This is good stuff though. If I really like it, I should buy it.
Continued to the second symphony, which I enjoyed but found slightly less immediately appealing. The second symphony uses a considerably larger orchestra, which I found less condusive to the neo-classical feel of the music, compared with the first symphony. The first movement made the biggest impression, featuring a sort of moto perpetuo with various melodic and dramatic distractions along the way.
Note added: After a third listening to the piece it is starting to sink in, and all four movements of the second symphony are starting to reveal their secrets. The second movement, which starts with unison statement a modal melody and continues with contrapuntal development which becomes more and more strained and dissonant, is a masterpiece.
I spend a lot of times listening to composers I never heard of before, and it is not this often that I find one that I resonate with so well.
Listened to the third symphony yesterday.
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It just gets better and better. The sound of the French horn is one of my favorite things about an orchestra, and Saygun uses it so well. This work is a bit larger in scale than the first two. What sticks most in the mind is the central section of the second (slow) movement which uses imitative counterpoint to build up to a tense climax. Another favorite is the finale, which starts with a off-kilter march (a bit Shostakovichian) which also becomes more and more complex, leading to a dramatically dissonant conclusion. Superb.
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^ Have not heard this one - attractive cover, though - and I love this record company - everything I've purchased from them has been extremely good.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/714bLZoXl1L._SX522_.jpg)
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^ click
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Nice cover.
(http://s31.postimg.org/s9ntm25e3/Turkish_Music_Violin_Piano.jpg)
^ click
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https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tikla24.de%2Fmuezik%2Fhande-ozyurek%2Fsaygun-la-yuz-yuze%2F&edit-text=
Very little info on this one. Turkish CD without an immediate western distributor, apparently. ç2007
http://www.hepsiburada.com/hande-ozyurek-saygun-la-yuz-yuze-pm-musicyerli1940
(http://ozkanmanav.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Hande-arka.jpg)
(http://images.hepsiburada.net/assets/Muzik/500/musicyerli1940.jpg)
"Saygun Face-to-Face" - Hande Özyürek: violin ; Uwe Brandt: piano
(http://www.handeozyurek.com/gfx/photogallery/portrait/view_B8S0445.jpg)
The violin sonata on YT: - Sonata for Violin and Piano, Op.20 (1941)
1. Andante - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny-69xVPRwo
2. Molto vivo - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-7wbshQarY
3. Largo - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QMG4fpT9p4
4. Allegro - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nfuv7gXmtGE
A good place to start for newcomers - very impressive, European-constructed music.
(http://s31.postimg.org/50fywcnh7/Budapest.jpg)
Awesome cover on this LP - no idea what pieces are on it.
excerpt from the opera: Köroğlu
Ayhan Baran (bass)
Hikmet Şimşek (conductor) Budapest Philharmonic Orchestra
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91OYNBGiaQL._SX522_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/819cYv8JnHL._SX522_.jpg) [asin]B000050QIZ[/asin]
Classical Music Apolitical? Not in Turkey
By STEPHEN KINZER
Published: May 4, 1997
ANKARA, Turkey— WHEN THE REVERED Turkish maestro Hikmet Simsek lifted his baton to conduct Ahmed Adnan Saygun's oratorio ''Yunus Emre'' at the Turkish State Opera House here recently, he was making a political as well as a musical statement.
Light, liquid violin passages swelled in symphonic crescendos; the chorus sang at times softly and then with vigorous passion, and delicate, complex flute solos introduced the various movements. But when the spectators applauded, many were cheering more than a fine performance.
''Yunus Emre'' is often considered the finest piece of music composed in Turkey since the founding of the Turkish Republic 74 years ago. Although it is more than half a century old, it has suddenly become timely, because its message is one of religious tolerance and nonsectarianism.
Classical music, often thought of as quintessentially apolitical, has taken on an unusual role here. As this performance showed, it has become a symbol for those who want Turkey to maintain its identification with the West rather than reorient itself toward a less pluralistic and more religiously based way of life.
Turkey is immersed in a profound social and political conflict between secularists, who have been in power since the republic was founded, and an insurgent Islamic-based movement that seeks to increase the role of religion in public life. The country's leading Islamist politician, Necmettin Erbakan, has been the Prime Minister since last June, and secularists fear that he is leading the country toward a form of fundamentalism.
The Ankara opera had not planned to perform ''Yunus Emre'' this year, but as threats to secularism seemed to grow, it hastily added the work to the repertory. It will be performed again on Tuesday, for an audience that is to include President Heydar Aliyev of Azerbaijan, and possibly several times next season.
''The artists wanted to do it,'' said one member of the orchestra. ''It has a great message for this time. That's why we always have a smile on our face when we perform it.''
The oratorio is based on the writings of Yunus Emre, one of the greatest mystic poets of all time, who lived in Anatolia from about 1238 to about 1320. He was a member of the Sufi order of Muslims, which scorns religious hierarchy and stresses direct human contact with the infinite.
Emre's poems assert that divinity is to be found within each individual's soul rather than in temples. Written in a simple style, they became popular with ordinary people, and they are still recited in some Anatolian villages.
''We see all of mankind as one,'' Emre wrote, warning that ''whoever does not look with the same eye upon all nations is a rebel against truth.'' In what could be taken as a rebuke to modern fundamentalism, he maintained that ''God's truth is lost on men of orthodoxy.'' One of his famous couplets asserts:
God's truth is an ocean, and dogma is a ship.
Most people don't leave the ship to plunge into that sea.
Six hundred years after Emre's death, his poems attracted the attention of Ahmed Adnan Saygun, who was to become a titan of modern Turkish music. Saygun had traveled across Anatolia with the Hungarian composer Bela Bartok in search of folk melodies and was fascinated by the survival of Emre's poetry and ideals. In 1946 he completed the oratorio, which has proved the most enduring of his more than 90 works, which also include symphonies, operas and concertos.
''Yunus Emre'' had its American premiere at the United Nations in 1958, with Leopold Stokowski conducting the Symphony of the Air and a chorus of 200. Since then it has been performed in many countries, both in the original Turkish and in a German translation.
Saygun died in 1991, and the role of preserving the oratorio has passed to the 73-year-old Mr. Simsek, who is arguably Turkey's most prominent conductor. By his own estimate, he has conducted the work more than 100 times here and abroad. He has also made a recording of it, which has been released on compact disc by the Ankara State Opera and Ballet.
''You can find some popular melodies in the piece, but very few and very well hidden,'' Mr. Simsek said after the recent performance. ''Saygun was educated in Paris, and this oratorio is firmly rooted in the Western classical tradition. It is a magnificent musical composition that also conveys a great message.''
THE PERFORMANCE OF ''Yunus Emre'' was not the first cultural event in Ankara this season that carried not-so-subtle political overtones. Several weeks ago an ensemble of 450 instrumentalists and singers mounted a performance of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony in a sports arena outside the city. Secularists used it as an occasion to show their support for Western music and, by extension, Western values. They flooded the arena to overflowing despite a decision by the Mayor of Ankara, who is a member of the Welfare party, to send earthmovers to dig up nearby roads in an effort to discourage them.
The crowd loudly booed Minister of Culture Ismail Kahraman, who is perceived as unfriendly toward Western culture, and cheered wildly for President Suleyman Demirel, a militant secularist. Later Mr. Demirel, visibly moved, came to the stage to thank the musicians and the audience.
''This magnificent picture is the picture of contemporary Turkey,'' Mr. Demirel told the crowd. It responded by loudly chanting, ''Turkey is secular and will remain so.''
That tumultuous evening, followed by the performance of ''Yunus Emre,'' reflected the role classical music has assumed in the cultural confrontation now sweeping across Turkey.
''No other Islamic country in the world has a state-sponsored network for the performance of Western classical music and dance,'' said Huseyin Akbulut, the director of the Ankara State Opera and Ballet. ''We are in a way the border of this tradition. In the same way, we are the border of democracy. For us, Western art and culture go hand in hand with a pluralist political system. If we lose one, we are afraid that we might lose the other.''
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REVIEW --> http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2016/Jun/Ararat_views_B108086.htm
I've had my eyes on that Farao disc. Seem to remember a good review in the now sadly defunct International Record Review. Any good in your view?
re: Views from Ararat
sorry, don't have that one - musicweb loved it, though - see the review ^
Therefore, I'm sure it is an excellent performance.
The Hande Özyürek disc has both the compositions included on "Views" and is very good, so if you can convert your cash into Turkish currency and order it from that website, I'm sure you'd be satisfied with it. Last year she performed in Constantinople with their new 55-piece orchestra, so she's still active, if not actively recording. She teaches in both Munich and Constantinople and lives part of the year in each city. She's also a member of the Trio Gradiva with her husband(?)
(http://s32.postimg.org/udpfvxizp/younger_Saygun.jpg)
This is the direct-download link to a 1999 PhD thesis: "The life and works of Ahmed Adnan Saygun" by Emre Araci
https://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1842/7680/Araci1999_FULL.pdf
It's 300 pages with the notes - probably the most authoritative thing available.
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An earlier (2005) recording than the Naxos release - Sagun's Inci's Book Op.10 and from the 12 Preludes Op.45 - No's 1, 4, 7, 10 & 11
REVIEWS --> http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/Aug05/Scarlatti_Zeynep_JDT3223.htm
http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/e/ero03223a.php
The un-issued Sonata for Cello & Piano, Op.12 - don't know the origin of this recording.
Date of composition: 1935-36
1. Animato (J=116)
2. Largo (J=44)
3. Allegro assai (8/8=56 or 3/8=140)
Dedication: To the memory of David Zirkin.
Reşit Erzin - Cello
Ergican Saydam - Piano
1st Movement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CKKvXfGc90
2nd Movement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oHOyPHJpFg
3rd Movement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9-ZM81NruM
Wind Quintet, Op.46 (part of the last movement is cut-off) ... major humor in the first movement. 1968 radio broadcast
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Ahmed+Saygun-wind+quintet%2C+Ankara+Nefesli+%C3%87alg%C4%B1lar+Be%C5%9Flisi
Wind Quintet Opus 46 - For flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon and horn
Date of composition: 1968
1. Moderato (l=66)
2. Lento (.J=46)
3. Deciso (.J=108)
Commissioned by: The Ankara Wind Quintet
First performance: 23 October 1968, Ankara by the Ankara Wind Quintet
The man himself - late 1980's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4ogvgUSOlo
Interesting. :)
Quote from: Scion7 on July 17, 2016, 05:23:52 AM
The man himself - late 1980's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4ogvgUSOlo
Interesting. :)
It surely is; many thanks.
Quote from: Christo on August 22, 2016, 07:01:08 AM
It surely is; many thanks.
Yes, great to see him. My Turkish is a bit rusty but I shall forward it to my Turkish friend. You do get a sense of his personality. It has encouraged me to listen to more Saygun.
Saygun is a favorite of mine. Listening to the 4th and 5th Symphonies today reminded me of Robert Simpson's music, brass blasting away.
;D
My favourite Saygun CD:
[asin]B000069KKZ[/asin]
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One of the consequences of avid collecting is that one might from time to time end up with multiple recordings of obscure works. Case in point, Ahmed Adnan Saygun's Piano Concertos. As far as I can tell, only three recordings have been made of these works, and Turkish pianist Gülsin Onay is the soloist in all of them. She's the only Saygun "specialist" I know of, and she has recorded some of the composer's solo piano works, too. I picked up the Koch Schwann recording as a cutout from BRO many, many moons ago, and I picked up the CPO recording as a new-ish release many moons ago. I'd never done an A/B before, so I figured now was as good a time as any.
I started with the Koch recording of the First, penned in the 50s. My memories associated the music with Bartok, and there's good reason for that, as the Bartok style in his first two piano concertos can be heard in this work. So too can Prokofiev and Ravel. Some of the wind writing sounds almost transplanted from Ravel. A standard fast-slow-fast structure is used for the work, with folk or folk-inspired music, and lots of staccato playing is to be heard, especially in the outer movements. The orchestration is often vibrant, though it's a bit sparse in the slow movement. In the Koch recording, Onay seems quite comfortable in her part, and the orchestra plays more than ably. The sound is slightly hard-edged, but not too bad, and it is not overly bright. The CPO recording is better in every regard. The sound is more modern and more realistic. The soloist sounds a bit larger compared to the orchestra, but nothing out of the ordinary. The piano sounds better and more realistic, and the orchestral playing is a bit tighter. Howard Griffiths gets slightly more refined playing from his band, with smoother transitions, but perhaps Aykal's occasionally more robust assertiveness or aggression is really more in the spirit of the piece. Whatever the case may be, I definitely prefer the CPO recording.
The Second, from the 80s, marries more lush and refined orchestration with some more avant-garde styling, and some occasionally even harsher piano writing. It's fast-slow-fast again, with a more melancholy, darker Lento slow movement. The same sonic and artistic attributes present in the First are present here, and though it might seem more refined playing might better suit the work, the older Koch recording might be slightly preferable. That written, even though I own both recordings and I therefore don't have to choose, if forced to choose, I'd take the CPO disc as the keeper.
This is something I've long wanted to do, and of course it took several OTHER projects that I should be working on right now for me to finally do that, namely the cleaning, updating, and generally sprucing-up of the Recommended Recordings Sections of the Surprised By Beauty website.
Now I've tackled Ahmad Saygun (https://surprisedbybeautyorg.wordpress.com/2017/01/07/ahmed-saygun-recommended-recordings/) & Erich Wolfgang Korngold (https://surprisedbybeautyorg.wordpress.com/2017/01/04/erich-wolfgang-korngold-recommended-recordings/):
Ahmed Saygun – Recommended Recordings
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeKJz3JWAAA-MIT.jpg)
(https://surprisedbybeautyorg.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/saygun_profile-870x_surprised-by-beauty_classical-critic_jens-f-laurson.jpg?w=748)
https://surprisedbybeautyorg.wordpress.com/2017/01/07/ahmed-saygun-recommended-recordings/
(https://surprisedbybeautyorg.wordpress.com/2017/01/07/ahmed-saygun-recommended-recordings/)
I have listened to the cpo series of symphonies in its entirety, and regard Saygun as a composer which deserves a place among the very finest composers of the 20th century. The 4th symphony in particular comes to mind, with its ravishing slow movement. The music in the symphonies is notable for its range of expression, spanning convulsive struggle to serene ecstasy. My reaction to the piano concerti is similar. They come across to me as symphonies with piano.
The one major part of his output I have not listened to yet is the string quartets. From my background reading, they seem to elicit statements that Saygun is the Turkish Bartok. I find this an in appropriate comparison because (not taking string quartets into account) I don't notice any particular stylistic similarity, and because I generally enjoy the music of Saygun more than that of Bartok.
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on June 07, 2018, 09:20:31 AM
I have listened to the cpo series of symphonies in its entirety, and regard Saygun as a composer which deserves a place among the very finest composers of the 20th century. The 4th symphony in particular comes to mind, with its ravishing slow movement. The music in the symphonies is notable for its range of expression, spanning convulsive struggle to serene ecstasy. My reaction to the piano concerti is similar. They come across to me as symphonies with piano.
The one major part of his output I have not listened to yet is the string quartets. From my background reading, they seem to elicit statements that Saygun is the Turkish Bartok. I find this an in appropriate comparison because (not taking string quartets into account) I don't notice any particular stylistic similarity, and because I generally enjoy the music of Saygun more than that of Bartok.
The moniker also has to do with Saygun's close relationship with Bartok and especially with his work in the field of enthomusicology. (And because of his massive biography of Bartok.)
:o
Can we agree that Bartok is the Hungarian Saygun?
;D
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on June 07, 2018, 10:10:26 AM
:o
Can we agree that Bartok is the Hungarian Saygun?
;D
I think, this is generally decided by the masses, not the individual. After all, there are probably more Bartok-lovers who can be lured to Saygun with this simplistic premise, than the other way around.
And then there is the timeline; Saygun was a couple decades Bartok's junior and v. much his junior partner on their excursions together. But other than that, yes, of course. Let's do that.
I like this composer as well - especially Symphony 2
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Quote from: vandermolen on May 26, 2017, 10:06:49 PM
My favourite Saygun CD:
[asin]B000069KKZ[/asin]
Not only do you like it, but it's your favorite! :)
(Hard to avoid repeating ones self here.) Fortunately my Saygun comments above are other a previous screen name. :)
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on June 07, 2018, 03:28:04 PM
Not only do you like it, but it's your favorite! :)
(Hard to avoid repeating ones self here.) Fortunately my Saygun comments above are other a previous screen name. :)
Yes, I see what you mean - like being trapped in a time warp.
8)
Quote from: Brian on July 06, 2021, 07:30:40 AM
I used to always find Saygun tough to crack, which was frustrating to me as a half Turkish person ;D , but have seen so many posting about his symphonies here on GMG the last week or two, it is clearly time to try again.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 06, 2021, 08:55:02 AM
Does the music simply not grab you or do you actually find the language difficult? (The latter doesn't seem possible given that his music is no more difficult than say Bartok's orchestral music.)
Sarge
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 06, 2021, 10:24:07 AM
Looking forward to reading your 'revised' opinion, Brian. :)
Over the last two days I've listened to the first three symphonies and first piano concerto, with probably more listening to come, but I feel able to reply to you guys now. Saygun's musical language I agree now is not "tough" in the sense of being superficially unpleasant or unmemorable. In fact his way with an orchestra is like nobody else's and already memorable for that (like the super weird lower brass trio section in No. 3's third movement). The Bartók comparison is apt. Of course, a decade ago I didn't like much Bartók, either. What is "tough," perhaps, is his
emotional language - basically all of the symphonies are turbulent, grumpy, troubled. Occasionally, he makes a strange decision that catches me off guard. Like, after the epic first two movements of No. 3 (very well sustained), there's the five-minute finale which sort of just ends. I definitely thought, "Wait, was that it?"
I think the mismatch of expectation vs. reality, back when I first listened to Saygun in 2011 or whenever it was, was, hey, here's a really famous Turkish composer! And yet there is basically no Turkish influence in this music. Symphony No. 1 has a good deal of folk-like material in the slow movement and finale, and No. 3 briefly has a little flash of folk drumming. But apart from No. 1, he buries it even more deeply than Bartók does, or possibly he is using eastern Anatolian/Kurdish folk materials that are less familiar to me. My mom is Turkish and likes classical music, but she thinks Sibelius, Grieg, Bruckner, and Nielsen are terrifying modernists who wrote ugly music, so I definitely can't play her any Saygun. ;D :(
This will all sound like I didn't like it...except I did ;D ;D . Symphony No. 1 and Piano Concerto No. 1 being my favorites so far. The piano concerto in particular is full of weird and cool and interesting sounds. Will definitely close out the cycle and hit the rest of the concertos. I remember listening to the string instrument concertos only a year or two ago; the rest of it has been at least 5+ years.
Quote from: Brian on July 07, 2021, 07:43:31 AM
Over the last two days I've listened to the first three symphonies and first piano concerto, with probably more listening to come, but I feel able to reply to you guys now. Saygun's musical language I agree now is not "tough" in the sense of being superficially unpleasant or unmemorable. In fact his way with an orchestra is like nobody else's and already memorable for that (like the super weird lower brass trio section in No. 3's third movement). The Bartók comparison is apt. Of course, a decade ago I didn't like much Bartók, either. What is "tough," perhaps, is his emotional language - basically all of the symphonies are turbulent, grumpy, troubled. Occasionally, he makes a strange decision that catches me off guard. Like, after the epic first two movements of No. 3 (very well sustained), there's the five-minute finale which sort of just ends. I definitely thought, "Wait, was that it?"
I think the mismatch of expectation vs. reality, back when I first listened to Saygun in 2011 or whenever it was, was, hey, here's a really famous Turkish composer! And yet there is basically no Turkish influence in this music. Symphony No. 1 has a good deal of folk-like material in the slow movement and finale, and No. 3 briefly has a little flash of folk drumming. But apart from No. 1, he buries it even more deeply than Bartók does, or possibly he is using eastern Anatolian/Kurdish folk materials that are less familiar to me. My mom is Turkish and likes classical music, but she thinks Sibelius, Grieg, Bruckner, and Nielsen are terrifying modernists who wrote ugly music, so I definitely can't play her any Saygun. ;D :(
This will all sound like I didn't like it...except I did ;D ;D . Symphony No. 1 and Piano Concerto No. 1 being my favorites so far. The piano concerto in particular is full of weird and cool and interesting sounds. Will definitely close out the cycle and hit the rest of the concertos. I remember listening to the string instrument concertos only a year or two ago; the rest of it has been at least 5+ years.
Thanks for sharing your impressions, Brian. 8) One of the things that does bug me about Saygun is exactly what you wrote in the music is in almost a constant state of huffing and puffing without any joy being brought into the music. Also, like you, I had expected more of a Turkish folk sound from him or to have permeated some of his music. With Bartók, one of my favorites, the folk influence was apparent and he didn't feel the need to hide it. It was right in your face, but the way he used this folk influence within his music was remarkable, but also so intricately interwoven into his music that it gave him a unique compositional voice unlike any other. I'm going to try Saygun again and, hopefully, I have as much success as you did this time around. The last time I tried to listen to him, I ended up turning off a work at midpoint out of frustration.
I'm glad Saygun is a little more to your taste this time around. Your Turkish ancestry demands you like him :D Seriously, I understand your objections.
Quote from: Brian on July 07, 2021, 07:43:31 AM
I think the mismatch of expectation vs. reality, back when I first listened to Saygun in 2011 or whenever it was, was, hey, here's a really famous Turkish composer! And yet there is basically no Turkish influence in this music. Symphony No. 1 has a good deal of folk-like material in the slow movement and finale, and No. 3 briefly has a little flash of folk drumming. But apart from No. 1, he buries it...
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 07, 2021, 07:56:38 AMAlso, like you, I had expected more of a Turkish folk sound from him or to have permeated some of his music.
I hear Turkish sounding music in the Suite that's coupled with the Fourth Symphony...at least a general middle eastern flavor to the music.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 07, 2021, 09:12:56 AM
I'm glad Saygun is a little more to your taste this time around. Your Turkish ancestry demands you like him :D Seriously, I understand your objections.
I hear Turkish sounding music in the Suite that's coupled with the Fourth Symphony...at least a general middle eastern flavor to the music.
Sarge
Very good, Sarge. I'm definitely going to be revisiting some of his music in due time.
Good to see this composer is receiving good opinions. At first I couldn't grasp his music, but fortunately it has been changing and now I enjoy it very much. His sense of orchestral color is nothing short of brilliand and spellbinding.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on July 07, 2021, 11:13:03 AM
Good to see this composer is receiving good opinions. At first I couldn't grasp his music, but fortunately it has been changing and now I enjoy it very much. His sense of orchestral color is nothing short of brilliand and spellbinding.
To the bolded text, this is what had happened for me as well, but it does look like things are on the upswing for Saygun and myself. I finished his
Symphony No. 3 not too long ago and what can I say: color me impressed! I think it's just going to take more time to fully understand his musical language of course, but for some strange reason I kind of equate him as the 'Turkish Holmboe', but only early Holmboe, not late period.
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 07, 2021, 01:07:16 PM
To the bolded text, this is what had happened for me as well, but it does look like things are on the upswing for Saygun and myself. I finished his Symphony No. 3 not too long ago and what can I say: color me impressed! I think it's just going to take more time to fully understand his musical language of course, but for some strange reason I kind of equate him as the 'Turkish Holmboe', but only early Holmboe, not late period.
Your progression on Saygun is going rather well, John. Good to know. What you say it's true, his works need several listens to show their secrets, and the experience is certainly rewarding. Your Holmboe comparison is apt, albeit I also detect a Bartók connection too.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on July 07, 2021, 01:21:53 PM
Your progression on Saygun is going rather well, John. Good to know. What you say it's true, his works need several listens to show their secrets, and the experience is certainly rewarding. Your Holmboe comparison is apt, albeit I also detect a Bartók connection too.
The reason I'm hesitant to connect him musically with Bartók is because I feel that Bartók is much more astringent in his writing than Saygun, but also the folk influence, as I mentioned, is more immediately heard. I was reminded of Bartók a little in the brass writing, but that's about it. I will say that Saygun's folk influence is more apparent than I initially thought as well, but it's so finely embedded into music that you have to pay extremely close attention --- it's quite subdued.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 07, 2021, 09:12:56 AM
I hear Turkish sounding music in the Suite that's coupled with the Fourth Symphony...at least a general middle eastern flavor to the music.
Oh wow, definitely! Listening now - the Suite is definitely the folksiest and most "Turkish" Saygun I have heard yet. Also probably the most audience-friendly if you were programming a concert.
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 07, 2021, 07:56:38 AM
One of the things that does bug me about Saygun is exactly what you wrote in the music is in almost a constant state of huffing and puffing without any joy being brought into the music. Also, like you, I had expected more of a Turkish folk sound from him or to have permeated some of his music.
Huffing and puffing, hah, good phrase for it. I don't think composers
need to reflect their national origins, it would be kind of mean to require Saygun to always sound Turkish if he didn't want to. But it was surprising that his symphonic voice was so strongly European. Of course, that is a big part of educated Turkish people's identity crisis. It's a stressful country to live in with a lot of military coups and violence in its past, so maybe that is where his huffing and puffing comes from. And it is also stuck between Europe and Asia. Among the educated/liberal class, there is definitely a performative effort to act and behave European rather than traditionalist. My aunt is always trying to pretend to be Parisian. When I visited in 2011, I asked to go eat some traditional kebabs and instead she took me to an American-style steakhouse, a pizza place, and a burger place. ;D
Quote from: Brian on July 08, 2021, 07:38:49 AMHuffing and puffing, hah, good phrase for it. I don't think composers need to reflect their national origins, it would be kind of mean to require Saygun to always sound Turkish if he didn't want to. But it was surprising that his symphonic voice was so strongly European. Of course, that is a big part of educated Turkish people's identity crisis. It's a stressful country to live in with a lot of military coups and violence in its past, so maybe that is where his huffing and puffing comes from. And it is also stuck between Europe and Asia. Among the educated/liberal class, there is definitely a performative effort to act and behave European rather than traditionalist. My aunt is always trying to pretend to be Parisian. When I visited in 2011, I asked to go eat some traditional kebabs and instead she took me to an American-style steakhouse, a pizza place, and a burger place. ;D
Yes, what you write is true that a composer from Turkey, Brazil (errr...Brasil as they call it), Slovakia, etc. doesn't have to reflect their homeland's native music within their own their own music, but it certainly doesn't hurt. ;) As I wrote earlier in this thread, now that I have listened to his 3rd symphony, I do actually hear a bit of folk influence in the music. It's not as prominent or upfront in the writing, but it is there underneath the exterior. Also, there are certain rhythms that, again, are subdued, but caught my ear and struck me as folk-influenced. That's an interesting anecdote about your aunt and about Turkish culture in general.
Fourth Symphony is now my favorite example of his huffing and puffing mood. Kind of has shades of Prokofiev and Lutoslawski's very early/young style in addition to the voice that he's been cultivating all along. Plus, it's only 24 minutes and has plenty of xylophone.
Quote from: Brian on July 08, 2021, 08:05:39 AM
Fourth Symphony is now my favorite example of his huffing and puffing mood. Kind of has shades of Prokofiev and Lutoslawski's very early/young style in addition to the voice that he's been cultivating all along. Plus, it's only 24 minutes and has plenty of xylophone.
The Fourth is my favorite too. I appreciate the brevity (not that his other symphonies outstayed their welcome).
Sarge
Interesting isn't it about composers' music having to sound right for where they come from. When listening to Latvian composers I often think their music sounds very English, but then I have no idea what Latvian music 'should' sound like!
I just love Saygun's music, it's one of those oeuvres where every piece just sounds great. I thinking the most Turkish sounding music amongst his works are the soloists' lines in the Cello and Viola Concertos.
Quote from: Brian on July 08, 2021, 08:05:39 AM
Fourth Symphony is now my favorite example of his huffing and puffing mood. Kind of has shades of Prokofiev and Lutoslawski's very early/young style in addition to the voice that he's been cultivating all along. Plus, it's only 24 minutes and has plenty of xylophone.
Looking forward to giving this symphony a whirl. Thanks, Brian. 8)
These four quartets are absolutely amazing. I'm quite surprised by how consistently accomplished Saygun was, and these quartets are a solid proof of it. The most interesting thing about them is their evolution, each quartet is more adventurous than the previous one. The harmonig language, the piquant gestures, the way he stamps the Turkish flavour in them... they're just extraordinary. My personal favorites are 1 and 3. I can't recommend them enough. Superlative music.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71R-JnQoZNL._SL1050_.jpg)
From WAYLT thread.
Saygun: Symphony No.4
A fine work reminding me, at times, of Shostakovich, Khrennikov (2nd Symphony) and Roussell:
(//)
Saygun's 4th Symphony reminds me even more of Schulhoff's 5th Symphony - two great works.