America, the land of immigrants, including musicians and composers from the British Isles and elsewhere.
Plenty of commerce, great inventors, lots of money being generated by business and innovation.
A "Manifest Destiny" as early as the 1840's, with all the optimism one can hope for.
Etc..........
But not very many renowned composers of classical music before the 20th century, if not before the 1930's.
Do you know why?
Did outstanding classical music require an old elite, a landed aristocracy, before it could achieve self-sustained development with all the supporting institutions -- conservatories, operas, major symphony orchestras? Is that why Americans, in spite of leading the world in industrial production lagged behind in cultural production to such an extent that they still sought training in Europe after the first world war?
What are the major American piano sonatas, string quartets, concertos, symphonies, oratorios and operas during the Romantic period?
Read this, Benny. :)
(http://www.andante.com/images/Articles/HorowitzClassMusInAmer180x2.jpg)
The gist of the interpretation?
Hi Benny - on the 'old forum', I started a thread on the very topic you mentioned, i.e. American composers of the latter half of the 19th century into the early 20th century, which included short bios of many of these composers and plenty of CD recommendations - unfortunately, this was lost completely in the transition to the current forum - sorry! :-\
But, some of the composers discussed included: Beach, Amy; Chadwick, George; Foote, Arthur; Griffes, Charles; Ives, Charles; MacDowell, Edward; Mason, Daniel & William; Paine, John Knowles; Parker, Horatio; & Strong, George Templeton - of course, later in the 20th century, there are many other American composers to consider.
So, if you're interested, you may want to do a little web searching on the composers above and post some questions - will be glad to make some suggestions - :)
Shouldn't we really be asking this of Finland?
Quote from: Benny on November 12, 2008, 06:10:23 PM
The gist of the interpretation?
Ah, just google the book. You'll find plenty. He said, lazily.
Quote from: mn dave on November 12, 2008, 06:04:32 PM
Read this, Benny. :)
(http://www.andante.com/images/Articles/HorowitzClassMusInAmer180x2.jpg)
I would second Dave's suggestion above - I've owned this book from first release - excellent! Not sure that you want to know THIS MUCH about American classical music, but at least take a look at a library copy - :)
A lot of European countries didn't contribute a whole lot either. It's a mystery.
Quote from: SonicMan on November 12, 2008, 06:18:32 PM
Hi Benny - on the 'old forum', I started a thread on the very topic you mentioned, i.e. American composers of the latter half of the 19th century into the early 20th century, which included short bios of many of these composers and plenty of CD recommendations - unfortunately, this was lost completely in the transition to the current forum - sorry! :-\
But, some of the composers discussed included: Beach, Amy; Chadwick, George; Foote, Arthur; Griffes, Charles; Ives, Charles; MacDowell, Edward; Mason, Daniel & William; Paine, John Knowles; Parker, Horatio; & Strong, George Templeton - of course, later in the 20th century, there are many other American composers to consider.
So, if you're interested, you may want to do a little web searching on the composers above and post some questions - will be glad to make some suggestions - :)
Yes, but other than Ives, most of these composers lacked strongly individual voices - however attractive their music may be. I like some things by Chadwick very much, but I can't escape the sense that he's a weaker version of Brahms and Dvorak. The irony is greater in that America from a fairly early time in her history developed a number of great and individual voices in literature - Hawthorne, Melville, Twain, Whitman, Dickinson, James to name some of the strongest - during the same period you complain of. And yet in painting America in the 19th century was relatively lackluster too; Childe Hassam and Mary Cassatt are more than competent, but they show little individuality beyond imitating Monet and Renoir.
And then you get to the 20th century, and along with the literary voices you get Ives, Carter, Copland in music and Jackson Pollock in art.
The existence of American composers before Ives is not in question. I personally like Griffes's impressionism, MacDowell's piano concerto and a few string quartets from that earlier period. But composers of "major" works? Even Ives wasn't played much during his time and he's not exactly of the Romantic period!
The clear and distinct "voices" that Sforzando speaks of, emerging much later with Gershwin and Copland (and the unperformed Ives) strikes me as the qualitative point of international distinction. These voices were heard in Russia much earlier, during the Romantic period, even if several of the composers there were not formally trained artists (Mussorgsky, Rimsky-Korsakov...). Ditto in Norway, Finland, Denmark, Poland, Hungary, Rumania, etc.
The mystery remains as deep as the Atlantic Ocean ... but I'll take a look at this work. Thanks for the reference.
Quote from: Two-Tone on November 13, 2008, 07:40:18 AM
America has produced many great writers; perhaps is it because a writer writes alone, without need for support. Musicians, however, need institutional support, starting with teachers to introduce them to the counterpoint, on to orchestras to perform their music and a young musician does not stand much of a chance in a country that is ruthless in its preference for the mediocre.
That's a good point. There is a practical need for writing, even in a thinly spread fledgling society. And it seems natural that some of the people who are taught an art form for practical purposes will use it artistically. But music composition and painting require much more institutionalization to mature.
Boston Academy of Music (1833- )
Peabody Institute (1857- )
Oberlin Conservatory of Music (1865- )
New England Conservatory (1867- )
Boston Conservatory (1867- )
Chicago Musical School (1867- )
National Conservatory of Music of America (1885-1952)
Juilliard School (1905- )
Quote from: Two-Tone on November 13, 2008, 07:40:18 AM
You forget Whistler, the one great painter America has had!
Is it not a significant clue that so many of America's best talent has gone to Europe? Over there, James, Pound, Eliot, et alii have found friendlier environments, while in America (and not just Middle America, upper classes too) talent just is not appreciated, or even tolerated.
America has produced many great writers; perhaps is it because a writer writes alone, without need for support. Musicians, however, need institutional support, starting with teachers to introduce them to the counterpoint, on to orchestras to perform their music and a young musician does not stand much of a chance in a country that is ruthless in its preference for the mediocre.
Whistler - yes, I knew I forgot someone.
But I'm not inclined to believe your explanation concerning writers. Writers need growth, too: Melville (my best example) would be largely uncelebrated today if not for a few great stories and one prodigious book (and in fact he was largely forgotten for some decades after his death, only to be rediscovered in the early 20th century IIRC). More to the point, his earliest works such as Typee and Omoo are little more than pleasant novels about sea-voyages; with Redburn he starts to anticipate the themes of innocence vs. evil that culminate in Billy Budd, but had it not been for his friendship with Hawthorne, he wouldn't have written Moby Dick at the level of symbolic density it eventually achieved. That relationship was as significant for Melville as meeting Mozart was for Haydn. (The relationship was a lot cooler on Hawthorne's side.) But other than some great stories like Billy Budd, Bartleby, The Encantadas, and Benito Cereno, a lot of later Melville's output falls short of Moby Dick (and yes, I've read most of it). Pierre, for example, the novel following Moby Dick, is an embittered, confused book that falls dismally short of its great predecessor. I couldn't get through The Confidence Man or the long poem Clarel. My main point, however, is that "support" was very much essential for Melville at a time when he was writing at the height of his powers.
In general, 19th century American composers wrote works imitative of European models, although there were some elements of Americana in their music. Many went to German conservatories in Leipzig and frankfurt etc to study, and produced dutiful, academically correct works that have been deservedly forgotten.
Chadwick is hardly one of the greatest composers, but from what I have heard of his music, he does seem to have a distinctive voice of his own, and it's certainly attractive music.
Back in the 80s, Zubin Mehta revived some music by John Knowles Paine, a contemporary of Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak and Grieg, and a highly respected composer in his day, and recorded it with the New York Philharmonic for New Woreld records.
Gunther Schuller has also recorded a large scale setting of the Mass by Paine. Listening to these long forgotten works is both interesting and valuable.
The U.S. is younger than Bach for pete's sake, why should there have been a wealth of great composers right away? I think it would take some time for a new country to settle down and get its own musical identity. Getting its political identity first was most likely a priority.
I think the better question is, like others have pointed out, why certain countries don't seem to have any great composers. I saw a list of Canadian composers - I'm sure there's some good music there, but nobody's heard any of it. And I can only guess that culture, or something of a similar ilk, would factor into there being any...Portuguese composers?
Quote from: The Six on November 14, 2008, 08:20:25 AM
The U.S. is younger than Bach for pete's sake, why should there have been a wealth of great composers right away? I think it would take some time for a new country to settle down and get its own musical identity. Getting its political identity first was most likely a priority.
I think the better question is, like others have pointed out, why certain countries don't seem to have any great composers. I saw a list of Canadian composers - I'm sure there's some good music there, but nobody's heard any of it. And I can only guess that culture, or something of a similar ilk, would factor into there being any...Portuguese composers?
Yes!
In a certain sense, it was not until the later 1800's that American cities, and mainly those on the East Coast, were on the same level civilizationally as major European cities. Therefore, the development of major American composers depended on the establishment of a culture ready to nurture such talent. Who knows how many American Mozarts were born on the frontier in the 1820's, but never became composers because survival took precedence?
And yes, one can wonder where the Bulgarian Beethovens are! Or the Serbian Schuberts?! Or the Irish Mahlers, although "Maulers" might be more appropriate for the Irish! ;)
Quote from: Cato on November 14, 2008, 12:53:40 PM
And yes, one can wonder where the Bulgarian Beethovens are! Or the Serbian Schuberts?!
Both spent whole 19th century fighting to get rid of Turks (Ottoman Empire).
1804 - First Serbian Uprising till 1912 First Balkan War
Quote from: Drasko on November 14, 2008, 01:04:10 PM
Both spent whole 19th century fighting to get rid of Turks (Ottoman Empire).
1804 - First Serbian Uprising till 1912 First Balkan War
Well, that's a wee bit of an exaggeration, and anyway, remember that e.g.
Beethoven came of age during the turbulence of the Napoleonic Wars. Peace as an impetus and pre-condition for creativity can be over-rated: I am reminded of the Swiss and their cultural high-point, the cuckoo clock. ;D
Actually, I picked on poor Serbia because of the insult against them and also Portugal (mentioned above here) in
H. L. Mencken's famous essay
The Sahara of the Bozart.
http://writing2.richmond.edu/jessid/eng423/restricted/mencken.pdf (http://writing2.richmond.edu/jessid/eng423/restricted/mencken.pdf)
Poor Bulgaria got thrown in by association! 0:)
Quote from: Cato on November 15, 2008, 05:05:09 AM
....and anyway, remember that e.g. Beethoven came of age during the turbulence of the Napoleonic Wars.
There isn't even remote possibility for comparison. Economical, socio-political and cultural circumstances of German states or France at the beginning of XIX century are lightyears apart form those of Balkan region at the same period.
Quote from: Drasko on November 15, 2008, 06:56:35 AM
There isn't even remote possibility for comparison. Economical, socio-political and cultural circumstances of German states or France at the beginning of XIX century are lightyears apart form those of Balkan region at the same period.
Drasko! You are taking me too seriously: I know there is no comparison between Germany and the Turkishly oppressed Balkans! 8) Here is what I wrote:
QuoteActually, I picked on poor Serbia because of the insult against them and also Portugal (mentioned above here) in H. L. Mencken's famous essay The Sahara of the Bozart.
http://writing2.richmond.edu/jessid/eng423/restricted/mencken.pdf
Poor Bulgaria got thrown in by association!
By the way,
The Liberator of Bulgaria Januarius MacGahan, was a fellow Ohioan, and I live not far from his hometown of New Lexington! 0:)
Quote from: Benny on November 12, 2008, 05:46:59 PM
But not very many renowned composers of classical music before the 20th century, if not before the 1930's.
Do you know why?
America actually had a vibrant, unique music tradition up until around 1800 or so, at which point Lowell Mason and the "Better Music Boys" showed up and squeezed all the life out of it.
http://www.amaranthpublishing.com/LowellMason.htm (http://www.amaranthpublishing.com/LowellMason.htm)