GMG Classical Music Forum

The Back Room => The Diner => Topic started by: Bonehelm on May 24, 2007, 07:52:55 AM

Title: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bonehelm on May 24, 2007, 07:52:55 AM
Hi guys. What do you listen to music on? I mean CD player, computer, Hi-fi, ipod, car, etc. I listen to everything on my computer (It has a logitech Z-2300, THX certified, over 90dB SnR and over 400watts of total power!) and I'm loving every minute of it. I have a hi-fi system too (Sony) but I found that the computer's speakers are clearer in the high register and the bass isn't distorted as much.

I think you guys must have some $100,000 set or something. You guys seem to be able to tell the smallest detail in classical music. :) Share with us what you have.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: BachQ on May 24, 2007, 07:56:37 AM
computer
iPod
home stereo (Harmon Kardon)
DVD player
car radio
car CD player
cell phone
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 24, 2007, 07:57:07 AM
SONY portable CD player (6 years old, quite bulky, but excellent sound - MUCH better than crappy Panasonic) plus either Bose headphones (non-noise-cancelling, sells for $140) or Sennheiser HD515.

Not the greatest but I am happy.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kullervo on May 24, 2007, 09:15:55 AM
Ipod and Bose tri-port headphones (same as Wagnerite, I think). The iPod is strictly for the house, though. I never go out with it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 24, 2007, 09:16:15 AM
Hi guys. What do you listen to music on? I mean CD player, computer, Hi-fi, ipod, car, etc. I listen to everything on my computer (It has a logitech Z-2300, THX certified, over 90dB SnR and over 400watts of total power!) and I'm loving every minute of it. I have a hi-fi system too (Sony) but I found that the computer's speakers are clearer in the high register and the bass isn't distorted as much.

I think you guys must have some $100,000 set or something. You guys seem to be able to tell the smallest detail in classical music. :) Share with us what you have.

You must have strange ears I am sure. What's that Sony hifi system of yours if it is beaten by crappy computer systems.
THX is just a lot of noise, and ugly noise too! ;D
And 400 watts of power doesn't say anything, that just a macho phrase.
How do you get the bass distorted, by using all the power, volume knob on maximum.
Tis a riddle how some people listen to their system.
That's mine. Or one of my systems.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 24, 2007, 09:17:07 AM
 :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 24, 2007, 09:20:23 AM
 :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on May 24, 2007, 09:22:26 AM
At home I listen to music on three different stereos of differing quality.  My main system is an all-Naim rig (except for the speakers) and it lives in a dedicated, treated listening room.  My second system is another, lower cost all-Naim (except for speakers) system.  My third system is fed from the second and is for another room and gets relatively little use.  All three sound excellent or better and allow me to fully appreciate any recording.  (I also have a cheap "executive" system in the garage, but I never listen to classical music on that stereo.)

At work I listen to a walkman.  I never listen on a computer.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: mahlertitan on May 24, 2007, 09:22:37 AM
my black 8 gig ipod nano.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on May 24, 2007, 09:32:09 AM
Main system

MS 5 main speakers
(http://www.hifiklubben.com/image/prod/DALIMS5AL_1_m.jpg)
Conrad-Johnson MF 2500 power amp
(http://www.hifihuset.se/catalog/images/mf2500.jpg)
Wadia 830 preamp/CD
(http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/pics/wadia_830.jpg)

+ slightly smaller secondary system, iPOD, Portable CDplayer, car systems and various computers

Nice setup Harry!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sonic1 on May 24, 2007, 09:32:24 AM
1. Stereo at home (particularly for vinyl)
2. CD player in kitchen
3. ipod plugged into tape converter in old car
4. ipod while running

(the ipod is new for me, and I am mixed on my reluctant entry into this technology, but it has improved my running and workout hours immensely)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 24, 2007, 09:40:58 AM
Main system

MS 5 main speakers
(http://www.hifiklubben.com/image/prod/DALIMS5AL_1_m.jpg)
Conrad-Johnson MF 2500 power amp
(http://www.hifihuset.se/catalog/images/mf2500.jpg)
Wadia 830 preamp/CD
(http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/pics/wadia_830.jpg)

+ slightly smaller secondary system, iPOD, Portable CDplayer, car systems and various computers

Nice setup Harry!

Yours too my friend.
The wadia is a gem.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: beclemund on May 24, 2007, 09:57:47 AM
A 60GB iPod 5G with Etymotic ER6 for the commute to work and Grado SR60 for at home.... the main system is undergoing a transformation that may take some time before I develop the necessary level of motivation as the iPod does well enough.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bonehelm on May 24, 2007, 10:24:54 AM
You must have strange ears I am sure. What's that Sony hifi system of yours if it is beaten by crappy computer systems.
THX is just a lot of noise, and ugly noise too! ;D
And 400 watts of power doesn't say anything, that just a macho phrase.
How do you get the bass distorted, by using all the power, volume knob on maximum.
Tis a riddle how some people listen to their system.
That's mine. Or one of my systems.

Not really. The THX set was recommended by a classical music magazine (can't remember the name, it's in Italian). It sounds really good, and the sony Hi-fi is just not made for classical music. I listen to heavy metal on it  ;D because it's noisy no matter what.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Papy Oli on May 24, 2007, 11:03:02 AM
Mostly the Headphone system :
Arcam CD73 > Project Headbox Headphone Amp > Sennheiser HD650 > Sheer Bliss  ;D

Otherwise a Denon Mini system if i listen on speakers.  :)


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on May 24, 2007, 11:16:27 AM
Harry & Erato have nice gear.

I listen on my computer during the day with a half decent system. Half decent systen in the car.

Serious listening = Pioneer 969 universal player > Yamaha RX666 receiver > Mission V63 floorstanders

Not interested in an iPod.

I'd love to upgrade my main system...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on May 24, 2007, 11:19:18 AM
As an acoustics engineer I have build a sound system of maximum sound quality compared to the cost. I have a 5.1 system of 5 identic small speakers of 6 litres (self-constructed but not self-designed) and a passive subwoofer (55 litres, also self-constructed but not self-designed) for frequencies 25-50 Hz. This kind of system works well with both music and movies. The loudspeakers are put carefully in my room about 1 m away from the walls. All these loudspeakers cost only about 1000 euros total! The loudspeakers have very flat frequency response and good power response. The sound is neutral. The only "weakness" is low sensitivity, only 81 dB/W/m. All speaker elements are by Norwegian SEAS.

(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/5131/hifi62si2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us) (http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2032/hifi552lf7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Many Finns have build their own Hifi 6/2 speakers. This is what it looks like. On the right is a pic of my passive Hifi 55/2 subwoofer.


My amplifier is NAD T762. It has plenty of dynamic power and the sound is fantastic, extremely controlled and analytic but never clinical. The amplifier was 1400 euros but I got it for 1000 euros.  :)

(http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/3808/nadt762za1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)


My CD-player is Denon DCD-735. It has served me well for 11 years never skipping on any CD! It cost about 300 euros.

(http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/4246/dcd735zc7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)


My DVD/DVD-Audio/SACD-player is Pioneer DV-575A. It cost only about 200 euros and serves me very well as a region-free DVD-player and SACD player.

(http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/1352/dv575pioneercr1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)


My headphones are Sennheiser HD-580 (200 euros).

(http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/6466/580rg2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)


For outdoor listening I have iPod shuffle 512MB (100 euros) with Sennheiser PX-200 headphones (60 euros).

(http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/4682/vermeetbr3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bonehelm on May 24, 2007, 11:31:51 AM
Holy cow 71dB. Since when did ipod shuffles cost 100 euros? It's only 70USD at where I live.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on May 24, 2007, 11:35:37 AM
Holy cow 71dB. Since when did ipod shuffles cost 100 euros? It's only 70USD at where I live.

I bought it almost 2 years ago and Finland is much more expensive country than US.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Don on May 24, 2007, 11:45:21 AM
I'm not much of an audio fantatic, but I try to have something decent everywhere I might be:

Bedroom - Panasonic Box in back of the bed's headboard.
Computer Room - The usual stuff plus Altec/Lansing speakers.
Living Room - Denon SACD player, B & W Speakers.
Kitchen - BoomBox
Family Room - I just put discs into the DVD player.
Auto - Panasonic CD player
Bathrooms - BoomBoxes
Headphones - Sennheiser

Most of my listening is in the living room, auto and headphones.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dtwilbanks on May 24, 2007, 12:02:23 PM
iPod/Computer/Vehicle

I have a home stereo but never use it.  Maybe because it's in the same room as the TV.  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mark on May 24, 2007, 12:09:46 PM
I've recently rejoined the MP3 generation (having given it a miss for most of last year, following three years of experiments with numerous and costly DAPs/lossy formats), and bought myself this ridiculously small, 2Gb Zen V player from Creative:

(http://www.empiredirect.co.uk/images/products/500/CRV/ZEN-V-PLUS-2GB.jpg)

I always go for this brand of DAP, as the sound quality beats the pants off every iPod I've ever heard. On this, I can carry about 20 CDs in variable bitrate ranging from around 160kbps to 320kbps. I have about 11Gb of music on my PC HDD, so I just switch content whenever I tire of listening to whatever's currently on the player. I add to my MP3 collection from various sources, but principally, from eMusic (http://www.emusic.com) (at the rate of about 9-12 CDs a month), as well as by ripping from my own CD collection (not that I'll ever have the patience to rip all 1000+ discs!).

My headphones of choice for on the move are these Sennheiser PX200s:

(http://www.tomshardware.hu/consumer/06q1/060210/images/sennheiser_px200.jpg)

They're surprisingly neutral-sounding for a pair costing around £22-£25, and unbelievably lightweight.

My home 'hifi' doesn't deserve either the name or a mention; and my SigmaTek XM400 Pro DVD/CD/SACD/MP3/DiVX/JPEG/...pretty-much-everything player ain't much better, either:

(http://www.erenumerique.fr/images/av/20050701/Sigmatek_XM400.jpg)

My home headphones, on the other hand, are MUCH better. I got these AKG K501s for just £60 delivered (they're worth £140+ new) from an eBay seller, and they arrived in immaculate condition:

(http://novamusic.pl/images/C_K501_1.jpg)

They sound crystal clear, and while some people complain about less-than-ideal bass response, I've had no problems. Indeed, does one want walloping bass with most classical music?

And when I'm surfing the internet? I just whack a CD into my crappy, five-year-old PC (albeit with upgraded, Samsung DVD drives) and listen through a media player like WMP or Media Monkey.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: orbital on May 24, 2007, 01:05:25 PM
portable listening on this:
(http://www.cowonamerica.com/images/products/x5/x5_02.jpg)
It is 60GB's, almost full  :-\ I think I have a couple of GB's left in there. The sound is considerably better than the iPod, plus it reads every music format out there.

I try to use this headphone as much as it looks ridiculously huge  ;D
(http://shop.sennheiserusa.com/retail2002/images/catalog/HD280Pro_normal.jpg)

other times, I use the tiny mx500.

At home, I have a very basic system which I use for movies more than anything else. An Onkyo receiver and surround system. My ears are not sensitive at all though, so when I want to listen to something loud, it suffices. I can hardly differentiate between a high quality hi fi and a basic set up such as mine. This is both good and bad I guess.

I have been using a CD player less and less though. I have all my music perfectly organized in 192 or higher kps on my computer and a digital connection to the receiver is quickly taking over the practice of changing (not to mention finding) CD's  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mark on May 24, 2007, 01:26:35 PM
Orbital, what cans are those? And are they closed-back?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: orbital on May 24, 2007, 01:37:04 PM
Orbital, what cans are those? And are they closed-back?
they are Sennheiser HD280 Pros. They are closed, and they produce a very natural sound with no accentuations to bo seen across the spectrum. And very comfy too :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mark on May 24, 2007, 01:57:04 PM
Thanks! :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: toledobass on May 24, 2007, 06:25:51 PM
At home is a Cambridge Audio amp and CD player and a Creek audio headphone amp along with Senn 580's.

For the road is a Sony CD player,  a go-vibe amp and senn 280's.


Allan
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sonic1 on May 24, 2007, 08:18:10 PM
I usually listen to music on crack, but sometimes weed is ok too. If I can't score that, I stick to cheap wisky.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Danny on May 24, 2007, 11:54:59 PM
A walkman with all of the aformentioned by sonic1. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The Mad Hatter on May 25, 2007, 01:03:02 AM
orbital: where did you get that portable music device? How much was it?

I listen on my rubbish mp3 player, but then I'm usually listening on the train so can't hear too much detail anyway.

If I'm listening to CDs, it's on my old Sony Discman, because firstly I find the sound remarkably crisp and clean, and secondly, I don't want to bother my housemates.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 25, 2007, 01:17:50 AM
This is my secondary system.

Avalon wall speakers.
Meridian 508 24 bit player.
Nu Vista Musical Fidelity cd player
MF 308 amp.
Nordost cabling and interlinks.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 25, 2007, 01:18:58 AM
The rest :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2007, 03:16:52 AM
In the main listening room:

Canton Vento 807 speakers
Thorens TD 320 turntable with a Shure V15 cartridge
Sony S444ESII tuner
Nakamichi Dragon cassette deck
Denon DCD 685 CD player
Harmon Kardon 970 integrated amp (a cheap, quick replacement until I get my behemoth 25-year-old Yamaha amplifier repaired or replaced with something comparable)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/goodmusic/System.jpg)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/goodmusic/System2.jpg)


In my den I have a Denon integrated amp and a HK CD player (which I really hate...it's not long for this world) and a pair of Polk bookshelf speakers:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/goodmusic/System3a.jpg)


Sony systems in the cars.


Sarge

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 25, 2007, 03:43:55 AM
Office system.

Meridian 508 20 bit, cd player.
Tannoy speakers, Saturn S6LCR, hanging from the wall.
Nakamichi amp/tuner RE 1.
Nordost cabling and interlinks.


Its quite a good set-up to my surprise.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 25, 2007, 04:00:12 AM
And this one in my bedroom.
The Philips Streamium.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on May 25, 2007, 05:39:38 AM

Harry, your wife looks pleased with the stereo.  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: orbital on May 25, 2007, 05:44:55 AM
orbital: where did you get that portable music device? How much was it?


I got it from Amazon for about $250
http://www.amazon.com/iAudio-X5-Multimedia-Player-Black/dp/B000BKPK90
though, they seem to be out of stock for now. You can find it at other retailers I am sure.

My main reason with going with this player is that it needs no interface, and files are organizes like a regular hard drive with a folder/sub/subsub/... hierarchy. Very easy to organize music that way :)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: greg on May 25, 2007, 05:56:58 AM
Quote
Re: What do you listen to music on?

the toilet
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 25, 2007, 07:39:55 AM
Harry, your wife looks pleased with the stereo.  ;D

Well she is, my friend! :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on May 25, 2007, 08:03:01 AM
My preference is vinyl, which I listen to on my Nottingham Interspace turntable:

(http://www.bluebirdmusic.com/images/InterspaceHR.gif)

with this very weird but wonderful tonearm by RS labs:

(http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0701/rs2a.jpg)

...and a Denon DL103 cartridge.

When I have to listen to CD's, I use a Sony universal player that has been modified by Tube Research Labs (http://www.tuberesearchlabs.com/).

My preamp is a Bottlehead Foreplay, which I made from a kit (http://www.bottlehead.com/), and my amp is a pair of 300B SET monoblocks that I made myself (with extensive help from some more experienced friends).  Those are not operational at the moment, however, as I am in the midst of building the speakers, Lowther Medallion III horns to be exact  (http://www.lowther-america.com/):

(http://www.lowther-america.com/M3-2%20small.jpg)

...so until that project is complete (which is taking much longer than I expected), I'm listening thru headphones.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: techniquest on May 25, 2007, 10:21:45 PM
I'm always mindful of budget in all circumstances as I am not particularly highly paid. However, I like to research as much as I can so I can get the best quality for the price. That being said, my music listening is achieved on the following:

1. At home:
Sony MHC-S9D surround-sound Hi-fi component system - had this for about 10 years now and have been very happy with the huge sound range and quality of reproduction. Added to this is my old Aiwa turntable - couldn't be without my records!
Home-built computer system with Soundmax audio and an Advent speaker/subwoofer speaker set-up.

2. In the car:
JVC KD-LH811 cd/mp3/radio system. I probably listen to music more in the car than anywhere else.

3. Out & about
Acoustic Solutions FM6672 MP3 player. Only 1gb, but I change the music frequently and bought for a song from Argos at a mere £14.99. Excellent sound quality for the price and far better than Tescos inferior Technica model of the same capacity (£19.97) and which I also have. My first MP3 player was a Samsung YP-6TX which was really nice (so it should be at £79), but the on/off and 'hold' controls became faulty after about 6 months.

I also have a Sony portable CD player which someone kindly gave me, but I don't use this very much.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: longears on May 26, 2007, 04:00:55 AM
Harry--how do you like the MF X Ray CDP in comparison to the Meridians?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 26, 2007, 07:46:06 AM
Harry--how do you like the MF X Ray CDP in comparison to the Meridians?

The MF is better, quite obvious. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: longears on May 26, 2007, 08:06:14 AM
The MF is better, quite obvious. :)

Really?  I admit I was intrigued and am a fan of MF (have their A5 amp), but I've been so happy with my Meridian 506 24bit that I've never been tempted to replace it...until I saw a glowing review of MF's bargain-priced X-Ray!  In which way(s) does the MF sound better to you than your Meridians?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on May 26, 2007, 08:19:35 AM
The best system I have heard in my life was:

Loudspeakers: Duntech Prince
Amplifier: Tact Millennium
CD-Player: Bow Wizard

(http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3113/systemdh2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

The place was the listening room (with excellent acoustics) of the acoustics lab I worked in. I was able to listen to Elgar's Apostles with this system! What an experience! I remember the CD-player had difficulties playing some Naxos CDs.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bonehelm on May 26, 2007, 08:22:07 AM
The best system I have heard in my life was:

Loudspeakers: Duntech Prince
Amplifier: Tact Millennium
CD-Player: Bow Wizard

(http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3113/systemdh2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

The place was the listening room (with excellent acoustics) of the acoustics lab I worked in. I was able to listen to Elgar's Apostles with this system! What an experience! I remember the CD-player had difficulties playing some Naxos CDs.



Good lord I wonder how much that system would cost...$50K?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 26, 2007, 08:30:07 AM
Really?  I admit I was intrigued and am a fan of MF (have their A5 amp), but I've been so happy with my Meridian 506 24bit that I've never been tempted to replace it...until I saw a glowing review of MF's bargain-priced X-Ray!  In which way(s) does the MF sound better to you than your Meridians?

The sound is more open, sweeter and committed,and is livelier, but not as good as my NuVista player, that's the absolute top, no Meridian or Wadia can reach that.
I have also the Meridian 508 24 bit, and that one has a special place in my heart. Would never part from it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 26, 2007, 08:32:03 AM
The best system I have heard in my life was:

Loudspeakers: Duntech Prince
Amplifier: Tact Millennium
CD-Player: Bow Wizard

(http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3113/systemdh2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

The place was the listening room (with excellent acoustics) of the acoustics lab I worked in. I was able to listen to Elgar's Apostles with this system! What an experience! I remember the CD-player had difficulties playing some Naxos CDs.



I had this amp for a while at home and can confirm that it is a very good amplifier.
They let me have it for two months to test it.
Sweet!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on May 26, 2007, 08:46:32 AM
Good lord I wonder how much that system would cost...$50K?

The loudspeakers alone are about $100k. The whole system is about $200k new.

I had this amp for a while at home and can confirm that it is a very good amplifier.
They let me have it for two months to test it.
Sweet!

The volume knob is absolutelu brilliant! The amplifier shows the volume as "uncalibrated" decibels. We used levels like 80 while listening. Somebody asked what happens if someone turns the volume knob over 99. The answer was nobody had had the guts to try!  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Steve on May 26, 2007, 09:02:22 AM
I own a complete surround system from Boston Acoustics, an ipod, and AKG K601 headphones.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: techniquest on May 26, 2007, 11:10:48 AM
Quote
I remember the CD-player had difficulties playing some Naxos CDs.
In which case, 200k or not, to me it would be worthless.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bonehelm on May 26, 2007, 12:35:55 PM
In which case, 200k or not, to me it would be worthless.

Agreed whole-heartedly.

Not that DG, EMI, Philips and Sony sucks  ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on May 26, 2007, 01:39:25 PM
In which case, 200k or not, to me it would be worthless.

I'd change the CD-Player. The loudspeakers and amplifier are superb.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 12tone. on May 26, 2007, 04:43:23 PM
Where can I get Canadian prices for B&W speakers?  I know they're up there in price but last time I checked, the company's website didn't even list the prices.  Not that I'm getting any anytime soon, but it would be interesting to see what they go for.  Any sites for prices?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 06, 2007, 02:06:32 AM
My father bought Panasonic DMC-TZ2 digital camera and I borrowed it. Here are pictures of my sound system:

(http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6653/loudspeakersht8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
"Hifi 6/2" loudspeakers (3 in front, 2 in the back). The speakers are a assembly kit designed by an editor of the Finnish Hifi-magazine. It uses quality SEAS elements and has flat frequency response as well as a good power response. Bass response goes down to 48 Hz (-6 dB) thanks to skillful design and proper tuning frequency of the reflex port. The finished boxes and electrical parts cost about 140 euros/speaker. That's extremely cheap for speakers this good. The black center speaker is magnetically shielded because I have a crt tv just behind it. Under the TV is my passive subwoofer, "Hifi 55/2", also designed by the same editor. The signal of the main speakers are routed through it. The bass response goes down to 25 Hz (-6 dB) which is not bad for the 280 euros the parts cost. This kind of passive extension of bass response is a good compromise when the use is both music and movies.

(http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/6515/amplifierpw6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
My beloved amplifier, NAD T762. This powerhouse is just amazing! It seems to have infinite power resources giving me the most controlled bass. The sound is both extremely clean and soft. Unlike many AV-amplifiers NAD makes musical products so stereo CDs sound just as amazing as multichannel movie soundtracks. This is an expensive product but I got it for 1000 euros.

(http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/8896/playersrl6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
My CD/DVD players. On top Pioneer DV-575A (region free) which I use for DVDs and SACDs. In the middle my CD-player (Denon DCD-735). It has served me amazingly well for 10 years. In the bottom is my first DVD-player (Denon DVD-1000).   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mark on October 06, 2007, 04:58:12 AM
Que, you should be a Mod. Then we'd only have about five threads in the whole forum, after you'd finished merging them. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dtwilbanks on October 06, 2007, 04:58:26 AM
(http://maccentre.com.au/images/ipod_nano_blue.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 06, 2007, 05:18:21 AM
Oh goody a show and tell thread!  I'm magically back in elementary school! >:D ::) :P

Alright, seriously, that's a nice system Elgar.  My hifi is bargain, but it's a big step up from using a boombox like I was when I was unemployed! :D  I have a Sherwood Receiver meant for stereo, not for 5.1 stuff, which is fine by me for now.  I have two big Yamaha bookshelfs.  They are large enough that I don't know if I want to put them on stands, they are three way and cover the bass well and look more like stumpy towers than proper bookshelfs. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: johnQpublic on October 06, 2007, 05:23:07 AM
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=4776;type=avatar)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mark on October 06, 2007, 05:23:43 AM
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=4776;type=avatar)

Nice! ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 06, 2007, 05:42:57 AM
It never fails to amaze me how the same threads keep being re-invented over and over again... 8)
(It's even a thread you've posted on yourself!)

What do you listen to music on? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1069.0.html)

Q

I seached that thread for a long time but I didn't remember it's title.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dtwilbanks on October 06, 2007, 05:44:34 AM
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=4776;type=avatar)

How humiliatin'.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dtwilbanks on October 06, 2007, 05:45:44 AM
I seached that thread for a long time but I didn't remember it's title.

Hunting for threads is no fun, so go ahead and start a new one. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: johnQpublic on October 06, 2007, 05:53:10 AM
I do have another sound system. You may have seen it before:

(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Themes/GMG/images/on.gif)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 06, 2007, 05:56:25 AM
Okay, alltough their is already a thread, I will ost again some gems I have, and a few things that I adde.
All cabling and interlinks are from Nordost, Vahalla. Also all the power cables are from nordost
The power amp that is below, I bought for a mere trifle.

Speakers are Avalon Ceramique.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: dtwilbanks on October 06, 2007, 05:56:38 AM
It's true about the nano though; I'm either listening to that at work or on a workout, or I am listening to my iTunes as I fiddle about at my computer in the evenings. I do have some adequate stereo components, but they don't get used much (same room as the TV, which my wife RULES OVER), and as you can tell, I'm no audiophile.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 06, 2007, 05:58:42 AM
One of my amps MF

Below Pass Labs pre-amplifier
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mark on October 06, 2007, 06:00:38 AM
PC for listening in the lounge ... unless it's something I can persuade my wife she'll like. But on the go, this little gem puts a smile on my face:

(http://www.spshop.gr/images/zen_v_2gb.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 06, 2007, 06:02:27 AM
Pass Labs amp
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 06, 2007, 06:05:36 AM
Harry, the first pic you posted is a pic I posted and shows the best system I have heard (owning such would require winning in lottery...  :P )

Never mind my grumping - your sound system looks very nice BTW.  :)

Q

Thanks Que! Not exactly High End but has a stunning performance for it's cost.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on October 06, 2007, 06:06:25 AM
ON THE GO:

(http://www.coolave.com/products_images/41oHWNqAGnL.jpg)


PLUS


(http://image.mpnavi.com/1.sj-mj33_image/sennheiser/sennheiser_mx500/photo_sennheiser_mx500_015.jpg)\


FOR a grand total of $50.  8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 06, 2007, 06:08:06 AM
Part of the Pass Labs amp :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 06, 2007, 06:09:07 AM
A few other trinkets

There is so much more, the old thread has it all.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: маразм1 on October 06, 2007, 06:16:30 AM
Simply the best there is.  Cost around 300 bucks 11 years ago.  Sounds good at low volume--very rich and full.  It survived college, my brother's party where as&&oles destroyed the speakers.  Still sounds great (cd stopped working after 3 years), even though I just use it as speakers for my tv/computer.  JVC rules!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: longears on October 06, 2007, 06:23:17 AM
For portable I've an iPod 4G20 with Etymotic 6i buds.  And there are times I get as much musical satisfaction out of this as from the main system.  ;D

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on October 06, 2007, 06:25:53 AM
Gallo Reference 3.1s
(http://www.10audio.com/images/Gallo_Ref3.jpg)

VERY cool design.  8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: longears on October 06, 2007, 06:31:49 AM
VERY cool design.  8)
Took him 20 years to get it right.  Worth the effort.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mark on October 06, 2007, 07:28:58 AM
ON THE GO:

(http://www.coolave.com/products_images/41oHWNqAGnL.jpg)


PLUS


(http://image.mpnavi.com/1.sj-mj33_image/sennheiser/sennheiser_mx500/photo_sennheiser_mx500_015.jpg)\


FOR a grand total of $50.  8)

Wish I could wear those ear bud sort, but I've got weird lug holes that let them fall out. And because I have a larger than average head, I have to wear phones with a generous headband.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Siedler on October 06, 2007, 07:29:19 AM
(http://shop.digitoday.fi/thumb7.php?hd-595.jpg)
+
(http://www.gnt.fi/tuotekuvat/Apple_Mbook_w.jpg)

 :(
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on October 06, 2007, 07:30:35 AM
Wish I could wear those ear bud sort, but I've got weird lug holes that let them fall out. And because I have a larger than average head, I have to wear phones with a generous headband.

Mine would fall out too, if I didn't use some Radio Shack foam pads.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mark on October 06, 2007, 07:31:57 AM
I can't do canal phones, either. Won't stay in, no matter how far I push 'em. :(
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 06, 2007, 07:33:22 AM
Simply the best there is.  Cost around 300 bucks 11 years ago.  Sounds good at low volume--very rich and full.  It survived college, my brother's party where as&&oles destroyed the speakers.  Still sounds great (cd stopped working after 3 years), even though I just use it as speakers for my tv/computer.  JVC rules!

That is awesome dude.  Others are posting hifis that look like they belong in a art museum, and you've posted an old dented, beat up boombox with duct tape and shit all over it.  That really is my style, I had a jvc tape deck that was damaged from moving so that one of the lids wouldn't close, but still sounded great so I kept it! :D  Well that was awhile ago, I don't have it anymore but I kept for a very long time.  If it works, use it, sit back and enjoy the music. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on October 06, 2007, 07:35:33 AM
I can't do canal phones, either. Won't stay in, no matter how far I push 'em. :(

They weird me out anyway, also uncomfortable. I had some and returned them.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Renfield on October 06, 2007, 08:35:19 AM
(http://shop.digitoday.fi/thumb7.php?hd-595.jpg)
+
(http://www.gnt.fi/tuotekuvat/Apple_Mbook_w.jpg)

 :(

Actually, even though I expected the MacBook's on-board sound card not to be worth much, the quality is pretty decent (even by my sensitive-ear standards): and it can almost drive my Sennheiser 280HD's to a sufficient extent.

Although the 595's might be a tougher sell, with a MacBook... :-\

Edit: Typo.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kullervo on October 06, 2007, 09:04:44 AM
(http://www.goodgearguide.com.au/im.php/width/640/im/1412_7_JBL_creature_II.jpg)

Had these for about two years now. Not exactly high-end, but not too shabby, either.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2007, 10:41:33 AM
Simply the best there is.  Cost around 300 bucks 11 years ago.  Sounds good at low volume--very rich and full.  It survived college, my brother's party where as&&oles destroyed the speakers.  Still sounds great (cd stopped working after 3 years), even though I just use it as speakers for my tv/computer.  JVC rules!

Yup, me too, Maraz! Long live JVC indeed! And this one HAS lived long. Like yours, the CD player died long ago, but with my sound card plugged into it, works just fine. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Soundsmall.jpg)

8)

PS - The small speakers in front are part of an Altec system that is split off from the sound card too. Subwoofer on the floor. Hey, it plays great. :)

----------------
Now playing: Mussorgsky Pictures at an Exhibition - Jeno Jando - Mussorgsky Pictures at an Exhibition for Piano - 01 (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/jeno+jando/track/mussorgsky+pictures+at+an+exhibition+for+piano)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 06, 2007, 11:33:03 AM
Yeah I have Altec Lansing for my pc speakers too now Gurn.  They're pretty sweet.  I have a 2.1 system. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2007, 11:50:10 AM
Yeah I have Altec Lansing for my pc speakers too now Gurn.  They're pretty sweet.  I have a 2.1 system. :)

Me too. Nice bass reproduction. And with the JVC filling in the mid-range, it is completely acceptable. Although I don't suppose MOMA would be interested in it, like they would be some of these!   :)

8)

----------------
Now playing: St Saëns Piano Trios - Joachim Trio - St Saëns Trio #2 in e for Piano & Strings Op 92 1st mvmt
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Lady Chatterley on October 06, 2007, 11:55:44 AM
Yup, me too, Maraz! Long live JVC indeed! And this one HAS lived long. Like yours, the CD player died long ago, but with my sound card plugged into it, works just fine. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Soundsmall.jpg)

8)

 Hey Gurn,
 Is that the stack of Purcell operas I sent you  on the shelf?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2007, 12:00:07 PM
Hey Gurn,
 Is that the stack of Purcell operas I sent you  on the shelf?

:P

And on the shelf is where they stay... ;D

(I know you recognized the all-seeing eyes of Luigi though)

8)

----------------
Now playing: St Saëns Piano Trios - Joachim Trio - St Saëns Trio #2 in e for Piano & Strings Op 92 3rd mvmt
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Lady Chatterley on October 06, 2007, 12:02:54 PM
:P

And on the shelf is where they stay... ;D

(I know you recognized the all-seeing eyes of Luigi though)
Yes I do! LVB lives on the same spot on my desk :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 06, 2007, 12:19:26 PM
:P

And on the shelf is where they stay... ;D

It feels like she gave you homework, doesn't it? ;D


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2007, 12:37:39 PM
It feels like she gave you homework, doesn't it? ;D




;D

Couldn't have said it better. Don't let your empathy level rise, not good for you professionally. ;)

8)

----------------
Now playing: Haydn Piano Sonatas 11 - 20 - John McCabe - FJH Sonata #19 in e for Piano H Deest 3rd mvmt
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Lady Chatterley on October 06, 2007, 01:46:10 PM
It feels like she gave you homework, doesn't it? ;D

 David,stop trying to make waves!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Lady Chatterley on October 06, 2007, 01:47:35 PM

 Don't let your empathy level rise...


 Hey nonny nonny and fa la la...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Siedler on October 06, 2007, 02:14:51 PM
Actually, even though I expected the MacBooks's on-board sound card not to be worth much, the quality is pretty decent (even by my sensitive-ear standards): and it can almost drive my Sennheiser 280HD's to a sufficient extent.

Although the 595's might be a tougher sell, with a MacBook... :-\
Well, actually I agree, the sound is decent but I wish I had the money to buy a decent hi-fi system with speakers and amp - hence the sad face.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Renfield on October 06, 2007, 03:03:43 PM
Well, actually I agree, the sound is decent but I wish I had the money to buy a decent hi-fi system with speakers and amp - hence the sad face.  :)

Well, of course. Understandable; especially in this forum, and in comparison to those near sci-fi systems on display here! ;D

But I, at least, wouldn't have a proper place to put it: so I'm satisfied with my lowly Sony hi-fi and laptop(s)/headphones, for now.

(By the way, thanks for calling my attention to the typo in my previous post, which I fixed. :P)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bonehelm on October 06, 2007, 04:18:38 PM
(http://www.continent.com.au/images/products/970118-0122.jpg)

It's obviously nothing compared to real stereo Hi-fi's like Harry's and 71dB's, but this is as good as a computer
2.1 speaker package can get. It has so much horsepower too, at 40% the neighbors from another flat of my apartment knocks on my door.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 06, 2007, 10:54:41 PM
It's obviously nothing compared to real stereo Hi-fi's like Harry's and 71dB's,

Well, my system is actually 5.0 with passive subwoofer. I think classical music really needs good sound so some of the systems shown here do not make any sense (to me). PC speakers for classical music?  ??? Insane!  :P 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Expresso on October 06, 2007, 11:26:16 PM
Currently i don't have a sound system, i'm stuck with my pc speakers.

(http://aycu10.webshots.com/image/28969/2005641049211871238_rs.jpg) (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2005641049211871238)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 07, 2007, 03:22:20 AM
I think classical music really needs good sound so some of the systems shown here do not make any sense (to me). PC speakers for classical music?  ??? Insane!  :P 

You started a thread just so you could show off your hifi, and on top of that lack the grace and dignity required to stop from insulting people who haven't invested as much money in their hifi as you have yours.  You know you really are being a jerk.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on October 07, 2007, 05:08:07 AM
My (as yet incomplete) system, most of which I've built myself (all of these pictures are from the web, not my actual gear):

(http://www.envogue-24.de/Bilder/nottingham/InterspTitel480.jpg)

Nottingham Interspace turntable...


(http://homepage.mac.com/sead/slike/121-2130_IMG.jpg)

...with RS Labs tonearm, and Denon DL103 cartridge (not shown).


(http://www.vacuumtube.org.uk/images/Bugle_EXT_small.jpg)

Hagerman Cornet phono preamp (w/ vintage Altec/Peerless condenser mic transformers as step ups).


(http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobespc/foreplay/forepl2.jpg)

Bottlehead Foreplay preamp.  Both this and the Hagerman were built as kits.


(http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=7899&stc=1&d=1117124687)

300B SET monoblock amp, built from scratch as a group project (the amps are on the floor in front of the speakers; this system belongs to one of the members of the group.)  At a whopping 8 watts/channel, these are overkill for the speakers...


(http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/firstwatt2/4_1.jpg)

Lowther Medallions, which I am still in the midst of building.


Oh, almost forgot.  My CD/SACD player is a Sony DVP-NS900V multi-format player which has been modified by Tube Research Labs for improved audio performance.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 07, 2007, 06:08:56 AM
Shrunk that's crazy amazing! :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on October 07, 2007, 06:12:03 AM
Shrunk that's crazy amazing! :)

Of course, without the speakers much of it does nothing.  So for now I listen thru headphones, while I plug away at the woodworking for the speakers. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bonehelm on October 07, 2007, 12:38:38 PM
I would appreciate it if 71dB can shut up about my speakers. I know they're not great, but decent. I'm a high school student, what would you expect me to listen to classical music on? At least I'm not one of those typical teens who sticks with their ipods (not to mention default ear buds) all the time and listen to crap music like avril lavigne and britney spears.

And may someone tell me why the picture I posted got changed into a stupid 80's personal computer? It was a logitech z-2300. Obviously some moderator has nothing better to do than to randomly changing people's pictures without a notice.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 07, 2007, 01:00:53 PM
I would appreciate it if 71dB can shut up about my speakers. I know they're not great, but decent. I'm a high school student, what would you expect me to listen to classical music on? At least I'm not one of those typical teens who sticks with their ipods (not to mention default ear buds) all the time and listen to crap music like avril lavigne and britney spears.

Yes, he should have some respect for what other people do, other than himself. I'm sure he will in future.

Quote
And may someone tell me why the picture I posted got changed into a stupid 80's personal computer? It was a logitech z-2300. Obviously some moderator has nothing better to do than to randomly changing people's pictures without a notice.

None of the mods give a crap about what picture you posted. I suggest that you copied the wrong link. Try again... ::)

----------------
Now playing: Crusell Clarinet Concerti - Johnson  English CO / Schwarz - Crusell Concerto #2 in f for Clarinet & Orchestra Op 5 3rd mvmt
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bonehelm on October 07, 2007, 01:33:58 PM
Yes, he should have some respect for what other people do, other than himself. I'm sure he will in future.

None of the mods give a crap about what picture you posted. I suggest that you copied the wrong link. Try again... ::)

----------------
Now playing: Crusell Clarinet Concerti - Johnson  English CO / Schwarz - Crusell Concerto #2 in f for Clarinet & Orchestra Op 5 3rd mvmt

No, you see. The picture was the z-300 when I read this thread yesterday. Today all of a sudden it's changed by some random mod obviously have too much time on their hands. Shame. If you don't believe me, check the logs. Someone went in and edited my post. Goddamn it people, admit what you did or don't do it in the first place.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 07, 2007, 02:10:57 PM
(http://www.continent.com.au/images/products/970118-0122.jpg)

It's obviously nothing compared to real stereo Hi-fi's like Harry's and 71dB's, but this is as good as a computer
2.1 speaker package can get. It has so much horsepower too, at 40% the neighbors from another flat of my apartment knocks on my door.

No, you see. The picture was the z-300 when I read this thread yesterday. Today all of a sudden it's changed by some random mod obviously have too much time on their hands. Shame. If you don't believe me, check the logs. Someone went in and edited my post. Goddamn it people, admit what you did or don't do it in the first place.

Whatever the hell this is (z300?), that's what was there when I first saw the post. That's what's there now. Clearly when you speak of people with too much time on their hands, you are engaging in personal reflection, which is likely a new experience for you that you don't know how to handle quite yet. It's OK, you'll grow into it.

8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: CS on October 07, 2007, 03:23:58 PM
No, you see. The picture was the z-300 when I read this thread yesterday. Today all of a sudden it's changed by some random mod obviously have too much time on their hands. Shame. If you don't believe me, check the logs. Someone went in and edited my post. Goddamn it people, admit what you did or don't do it in the first place.

Go here (the host of the image): http://www.continent.com.au/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=z-2300&x=0&y=0

Then click on the product.

That website is the one that "changed" the picture, no one else.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 07, 2007, 03:29:12 PM
Go here (the host of the image): http://www.continent.com.au/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=z-2300&x=0&y=0

Then click on the product.

That website is the one that "changed" the picture, no one else.

Thank you, CS. I suspected that's what had happened, but I didn't have enough time on my hands to do the research. ;)

8)

----------------
Now playing: Spohr Clarinet Concerto #1 - Johnson  English CO / Schwarz - Spohr Concerto #1 in c for Clarinet & Orchestra Op 26 2nd mvmt
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 07, 2007, 04:28:20 PM
I have to say that even I think that is paranoid to think that the mods change your pic! :D  It's only slightly funny as a prank, nah they would pick something with more laugh potential. 8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 08, 2007, 12:01:42 AM
I would appreciate it if 71dB can shut up about my speakers. I know they're not great, but decent. I'm a high school student, what would you expect me to listen to classical music on? At least I'm not one of those typical teens who sticks with their ipods (not to mention default ear buds) all the time and listen to crap music like avril lavigne and britney spears.

Sorry, but I have not said anything about your speakers. I just told my professional (I am an acoustic engineer) opinion about the importance of good sound quality with classical music.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sound67 on October 08, 2007, 12:21:38 AM
My stereo system (multi-channel IMHO makes little sense in classical music, and is already on the way out again):

Speakers: KEF Reference 203 (floorstanders) / Klipsch Reference B-75 (bookshelves)
CDP: Jolida Music Van Vaccum Tube Reference HDCD Player / Original A8-t Tube CDP
DVD/SACD: Denon DVD-3910
Amps: Musical Fidelity A308 Dual Mono Amplifier / Cayin A-88t Vacuum Tube Integrated Amplifier
Interconnects: "cable sound" is a total fraud, but I'm using Oehlbach NF-1 and Straight Wire Symphony interconnects anyway

Thomas

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 08, 2007, 01:29:08 AM
[
Interconnects: "cable sound" is a total fraud, but I'm using Oehlbach NF-1 and Straight Wire Symphony interconnects anyway

Thomas



Cable sound may be, but the transport of the signal is not a fraud, but at the same time I know, this is a theme given to much controversy, and agreement can not be reached between both parties.
Being in the business for over 35 years now, I can say without a doubt, that interlinks and cables of good quality will improve the sound enormously.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 08, 2007, 05:39:24 AM
multi-channel IMHO makes little sense in classical music)

Thomas

Why? IMHO multichannel sound is the most important feature of SACD/DVD-A, not the higher resolution.

Multichannel makes sense in everything. In ideal case there is infinite amount of channels (total soundfield synthesis)

Cable sound may be, but the transport of the signal is not a fraud, but at the same time I know, this is a theme given to much controversy, and agreement can not be reached between both parties.
Being in the business for over 35 years now, I can say without a doubt, that interlinks and cables of good quality will improve the sound enormously.


Cables may introduce very small changes in sound but so small the differences are neglectable compared to many other problems in audio reproduction. Cables are the last thing to concern when everything else is perfect (never is). Most of the heard differences between cables are due to the placebo effect.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Brewski on October 08, 2007, 06:35:05 AM
No, you see. The picture was the z-300 when I read this thread yesterday. Today all of a sudden it's changed by some random mod obviously have too much time on their hands. Shame. If you don't believe me, check the logs. Someone went in and edited my post. Goddamn it people, admit what you did or don't do it in the first place.

Sorry, but there are no "logs" to check.  If a post is edited (by the original poster or by a moderator), a line shows up under the text in the following format:

« Last Edit: 07 October 2007, 00:11:59 by bhodges »

You will notice that there is no line under your post.  No one has edited it.

--Bruce
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 08, 2007, 08:04:34 AM


)
Cables may introduce very small changes in sound but so small the differences are neglectable compared to many other problems in audio reproduction. Cables are the last thing to concern when everything else is perfect (never is). Most of the heard differences between cables are due to the placebo effect.

Poju, that is complete nonsense. Placebo effect my....
I have ears  too you know, so stop offending me by nullifying my knowledge.
No hard feelings though.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 08, 2007, 08:44:04 AM
Poju, that is complete nonsense. Placebo effect my....
I have ears  too you know, so stop offending me by nullifying my knowledge.
No hard feelings though.

http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2007/10/01/james-randi-calls-ou.html (http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2007/10/01/james-randi-calls-ou.html)

 ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 08, 2007, 03:18:19 PM
Poju, that is complete nonsense. Placebo effect my....
I have ears  too you know, so stop offending me by nullifying my knowledge.
No hard feelings though.

Elgar speaks based on evidence and hands on experience.  You speak based on vague intuition.  Sorry dude but step back and... hey wait you're joking aren't you? ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: longears on October 08, 2007, 06:41:50 PM
Poju, that is complete nonsense. Placebo effect my....
I have ears  too you know, so stop offending me by nullifying my knowledge.
No hard feelings though.
That's okay, Harry...you'll never convince those who are blinded by faith in their primitive superstitions.  Theory trumps experience every time for true believers. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: longears on October 08, 2007, 06:45:50 PM
Why? IMHO multichannel sound is the most important feature of SACD/DVD-A, not the higher resolution
Multichannel sound is a gimmick, a parlor trick contrived to sell extra amps and speakers to the gullible.  Higher resolution is a real benefit--but good upsampling of Redbook CDs comes very close.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 08, 2007, 09:05:05 PM
Some articles on the wire fraud can be found here. (http://2eyespy.tripod.com/id3.html)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sound67 on October 08, 2007, 11:23:46 PM
Poju, that is complete nonsense. Placebo effect my....

It IS a placebo effect. Read e.g. this insightful (and entertaining) foray into the 10 Biggest Lies in Hifi:

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf (http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf)

Thomas
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 09, 2007, 12:04:50 AM
It IS a placebo effect. Read e.g. this insightful (and entertaining) foray into the 10 Biggest Lies in Hifi:

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf (http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf)

Thomas

No, Thomas to my ears it is not.
But its okay, I had these discussions before, and there is no brotherhood at all.
So lets keep it at that.
I think its a revealing truth.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on October 09, 2007, 01:47:54 AM
I in theory agree with Elgar about multichannel sound, in fact it's obvious common sense that the more sources you have the more complete a soundstage you can create.  But of course the more speakers you add, the less of an effect you get from adding another.  And it doesn't take long before the boundary conditions imposed by your walls play a larger role in reducing sound quality than adding speakers does.

In practice, I tend to prefer stereo sound.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on October 09, 2007, 03:38:34 AM
It IS a placebo effect. Read e.g. this insightful (and entertaining) foray into the 10 Biggest Lies in Hifi:

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf (http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf)

Thomas

Thanks for this.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 09, 2007, 03:41:15 AM
Multichannel sound is a gimmick, a parlor trick contrived to sell extra amps and speakers to the gullible.  Higher resolution is a real benefit--but good upsampling of Redbook CDs comes very close.

It's the other way around. The benefits of higher resolution is questionable while larger number of discrete channels help fighting against the room acoustics. This is especially important with classical music where the REAL acoustics is captured carefully in the recording. The listening room acoustics are ADDED to the real acoustics creating a twisted double acoustics. For small scale chamber music that might work if the recording is dry but for example church music sounds less "cathedral" because listening room is much much smaller creating too early reflections from the walls. People are just used to the limitations of stereophonic sound. The more people hear well done multichannel recordings on properly set up multichannel system the more they will notice the limitations of stereo. Actually stereo perfoms amazingly well compared to the number of channels.

It's true new sound formats are created in order to sell stuff (HD video formats are here for the very same reason) but that does not take away the (physical) fact the more you have channels the better sound image you can create.

I in theory agree with Elgar about multichannel sound, in fact it's obvious common sense that the more sources you have the more complete a soundstage you can create.  But of course the more speakers you add, the less of an effect you get from adding another.  And it doesn't take long before the boundary conditions imposed by your walls play a larger role in reducing sound quality than adding speakers does.

In practice, I tend to prefer stereo sound.

Yes, the benefit of adding channels gets smaller and smaller. A 5-channel system is pretty good compromise between the sound image possibilities and cost.

You prefer stereo because you are used to that, used to it's charasteristics and limitations. We have stereo because 2 discrete channels is possible to record on vinyl. That's the reason. Sound engineers have perfected stereo sound over the decades.

I am not against stereo (stereophonic recordings should be played in stereo mode except in cases where the recording has "matrixed channel features" in which case the benefit of multichannel decoding is perhaps greater than the drawbacks). Stereo is simple, cost effective and perfected format. Multichannel sound just has even more possiblities and potential.  :)

Stereo and multichannel sounds are not exclusive. I use and enjoy them both on my 5-channel system.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on October 09, 2007, 04:09:57 AM
Some articles on the wire fraud can be found here. (http://2eyespy.tripod.com/id3.html)

I'm agnostic on the issue of cables in audio.  However, as a physician, I am always dismayed by the misuse of "double blind tests" in attempt to settle the issue, one way or the other.  For instance, in the link posted above, the number of test subjects used to "prove" there is no difference between cables is so small that no valid conclusion could possibly be drawn.  It does suggest that there is no blatantly obvious difference that is audible to any listener, under any circumstance.  But it does not rule out subtler differences that might require more protracted listening to discern.

Whether differences of this magnitude are worth the price some of these cable companies charge, of course, is another matter altogether, and not one that can be addressed scientifically.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 09, 2007, 05:18:07 AM
I'm agnostic on the issue of cables in audio. 

In the end everything affects to the sound, even the socks in your feet but it's about on what level? That's what is wrong with audio cables fanatics. They ignore other aspects as significant or even more significant. Cables are among the least significant factors in audio reproduction and most vulnerable for placebo effect because the differencies are so microscopic. Big difference removes placebo effect as the real sensation is so clear. Placebo effect is shown to be a huge factor in hearing differences between cables (in blind tests the differences tend to disappear). The only rational starting point is that when the difference is heard in blind test it is significant.

Most people do not have too much money in their hands. Better use the money wisely. Better invest where you get the biggest improvement for you money. HE-cables really aren't cost effective investment. Instead of costly cable one could buy for example a rug and put it on the wall. The acoustics gets better and the improvement in sound is much much bigger than with the cable.

Cables work with our irrational side. We pay money for this mystic cable with oxygen free copper and special geometry. Sounds promising! We connect the new shiny cool-looking cable to our system and expect to hear the improvement/difference. That's when the placebo effect strikes and we don't see it. The sound is improved the way we expected it to improve (based on the physical properties of the cable and the words the cable is described).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on October 09, 2007, 05:54:23 AM
In the end everything affects to the sound, even the socks in your feet but it's about on what level? That's what is wrong with audio cables fanatics. They ignore other aspects as significant or even more significant. Cables are among the least significant factors in audio reproduction and most vulnerable for placebo effect because the differencies are so microscopic. Big difference removes placebo effect as the real sensation is so clear. Placebo effect is shown to be a huge factor in hearing differences between cables (in blind tests the differences tend to disappear). The only rational starting point is that when the difference is heard in blind test it is significant.

Most people do not have too much money in their hands. Better use the money wisely. Better invest where you get the biggest improvement for you money. HE-cables really aren't cost effective investment. Instead of costly cable one could buy for example a rug and put it on the wall. The acoustics gets better and the improvement in sound is much much bigger than with the cable.

Cables work with our irrational side. We pay money for this mystic cable with oxygen free copper and special geometry. Sounds promising! We connect the new shiny cool-looking cable to our system and expect to hear the improvement/difference. That's when the placebo effect strikes and we don't see it. The sound is improved the way we expected it to improve (based on the physical properties of the cable and the words the cable is described).

I agree with most of what you have to say here, especially the importance of room acoustics.  My only disagreement is with the assertion that if in a double blind test, as it is usually done in audio, listeners cannot hear differences between cables, then it proves that there are no differences.  To my mind, it only proves that if there are differences, they are so small that they are easily confounded by all the other factors you list that can affect a listener's response to the music.  An academic point, to be sure.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 09, 2007, 05:59:19 AM
My only disagreement is with the assertion that if in a double blind test, as it is usually done in audio, listeners cannot hear differences between cables, then it proves that there are no differences.

I didn't mean that. My point was the difference is meaningless if not heard in blind tests. So, we agree with this too, don't we?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on October 09, 2007, 06:23:45 AM
I didn't mean that. My point was the difference is meaningless if not heard in blind tests. So, we agree with this too, don't we?

Yeah.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: orbital on October 09, 2007, 06:30:12 AM

That's when the placebo effect strikes and we don't see it.

That's valid in a lot of other things too. You come home with a vintage wine that you won in an auction. You wait a couple of years, open it, and what do you know? It tastes $10,000.00 better than a $200/bottle wine  8) The last few steps are always the most expensive, and exponentially too.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on October 09, 2007, 11:39:54 AM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa264/oddryd/stereo.jpg?t=1191962001)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Kullervo on October 10, 2007, 04:41:17 AM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa264/oddryd/stereo.jpg?t=1191962001)

Nice listening space!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Brewski on October 10, 2007, 04:43:57 AM
Nice listening space!

Yes, I was thinking just the same thing.  What brand are those speakers, erato?

--Bruce
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on October 10, 2007, 04:58:56 AM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa264/oddryd/stereo.jpg?t=1191962001)

Where'd you get the CD shelving just to the right of the left speaker?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on October 10, 2007, 06:02:58 AM
The speakers are Dali Euphonia MS 5s.

And the shelfing is IKEA meant for books (Billy) but relatively easy to adjust shelving space for CDs if you can use a hammer and a saw!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on October 10, 2007, 06:10:42 AM
The speakers are Dali Euphonia MS 5s.

And the shelfing is IKEA meant for books (Billy) but relatively easy to adjust shelving space for CDs if you can use a hammer and a saw!

Thanks. Do you recall how wide they are?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Lethevich on October 10, 2007, 07:17:36 AM
Thanks. Do you recall how wide they are?

If it helps, their sites list full dimensions: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/categories/range/10364/11683/
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on October 10, 2007, 07:43:54 AM
If it helps, their sites list full dimensions: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/categories/range/10364/11683/

They also make shelves specifically designed for CD's:

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/07305310
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Lethevich on October 10, 2007, 07:48:08 AM
They also make shelves specifically designed for CD's:

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/07305310

Indeedie, I have six of those atm. They're less deep than the bookcases, which could hold two rows deep of CDs, so occupy less floor space.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on October 10, 2007, 07:53:28 AM
They also make shelves specifically designed for CD's:

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/07305310

Thanks, I just wish that they were wider.  :-\
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on October 10, 2007, 07:54:57 AM
If it helps, their sites list full dimensions: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/categories/range/10364/11683/

It does, thanks!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Great Gable on November 07, 2007, 10:59:39 AM
All very boring - just three black boxes and no esoteric tubes. The sound belies the appearance - very revealing and rich.


Digital Front End: MERIDIAN 506 20-BIT CD PLAYER (Redbook) 
Pre Amplifier: AUDIOLAB 8000Q PRE-AMP 
Amplification: BRYSTON 4B-ST (Pro) POWER AMP 
Speaker System: AUDIO VECTOR 5 (F3 LYD) SPEAKERS (spiked onto hardwood floorboards) 
Interconnects: Chord company (hand-made by their designer) 
System Rack: Target (spiked onto hardwood floorboards) 
Music Storage System: My own hand-built shelving 
Other Accessories: Some power conditioning, purely to prevent spiking
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 07, 2007, 11:01:53 AM
Where did you get that CD shelving, Great Gable?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Great Gable on November 07, 2007, 11:06:35 AM
It's what I call "music storage system" in the post - I made them.

I do have several links provided by the Steve Hoffman forum members who have found purpose built units.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 07, 2007, 11:08:01 AM
It's what I call "music storage system" in the post - I made them.

I do have several links provided by the Steve Hoffman forum members who have found purpose built units.

I'd be interested in those links, please.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Great Gable on November 07, 2007, 11:10:57 AM
OK here they are...

http://www.homedecorators.com/P/Oak_Veneer_Triple_Multimedia_Case_with_Glass_Doors/410/

http://www.skymall.com/shopping/detail.htm?pid=102219753

http://www.allmultimediastorage.com/

http://www.ikea.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/IkeamsSearch?storeId=7&langId=-20&catalogId=11001&searchType=product&pageNumber=-1&orderBy=score&category=%23%7EProducts&query=Billy+bookcases
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Que on November 07, 2007, 11:30:49 AM
This looks adequate!  ;D

(http://images.skymall.com/images/products/bf/17/06/102219753x.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 07, 2007, 06:49:34 PM
This looks adequate!  ;D

(http://images.skymall.com/images/products/bf/17/06/102219753x.jpg)

Q

That looks like heaven!  0:)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 07, 2007, 10:33:41 PM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa264/oddryd/stereo.jpg?t=1191962001)

Aren't you worried about the stuff to either side of the speakers messing with the imaging?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on November 07, 2007, 11:35:57 PM
Well not really. Of course that's always a potential problem; but the important thing is dampening and dispersion of reflected sound which bookcases, drapes etc seems to do rather well (as opposed to a naked wall). Anyway I'm quite satisfied with imaging having experimented with loudspeaker placing quite a bit; anyway I need space for books etc.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 08, 2007, 12:29:14 AM
Well not really. Of course that's always a potential problem; but the important thing is dampening and dispersion of reflected sound which bookcases, drapes etc seems to do rather well (as opposed to a naked wall). Anyway I'm quite satisfied with imaging having experimented with loudspeaker placing quite a bit; anyway I need space for books etc.

The CD rack and knick-knacks behind the speakers should do a good job of diffusion, but the audio fetishist in me is worried a bit by that cabinet on the right.  I'd want to put a wool blanket or something like that over it.  And the bare flat surfaces of the bookcase on the left worry me.   :o
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on November 08, 2007, 01:50:09 AM
Always room for some further experimentation. But the speakers are far away from the backwall and I don't think the surface on the left should be any problem vs higher frequencies....the potential need for a base trap is another matter. Thing changes all the time, so next time I need to do some changes I'll see what can be done. But I'm not an fetishist regarding sound as long as it sounds good!   ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Great Gable on November 08, 2007, 10:58:43 AM
I dread to think what would happen to me if I improved the sound of my rig. I'd be a gibbering, dribbling wreck!

Further to that - is there anyone out there, apart from myself, who is actually ecstatically happy with the sound of their system and has no need/desire to upgrade for the foreseeable future? (I bet there are not too many of you, certainly if the evidence from other forums is a reliable guide)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: longears on November 08, 2007, 11:11:05 AM
is there anyone out there, apart from myself, who is actually ecstatically happy with the sound of their system and has no need/desire to upgrade for the foreseeable future?
Yo.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Great Gable on November 08, 2007, 11:14:41 AM
Sorry - being an old fart - is that a "yes" or a "no"?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: longears on November 08, 2007, 11:52:06 AM
You're an old fart?  I hadn't guessed.  Welcome, fellow fuddy-duddy!

Checking your profile I see you're also Kentish.  "Yo" in this case is primarily an affirmative response, somewhat akin to a schoolchild raising his hand--but it also means "I" in Spanish. 

My "kit" (as y'all say) has reached a state where it would require many thousands of dollars to make an incremental improvement, so I don't foresee any changes.  (However, I'm tempted to make some changes in my second system, used primarily for watching DVDs.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Great Gable on November 08, 2007, 12:48:13 PM
Yes, my 2nd and 3rd systems ( one being the surround sound rig) are a long way off the quality of my main one and neither cost anything like a tenth as much, so that's no surprise. That's fine though because the backup Hi-Fi gets used rarely, and only with headphones, whilst the surround sound is just used for DVDs. For me, the quality I have is fine for just movies/TV. It's the main setup which is of primary importance and which I have devoted a lot of time, energy and money into and no small amount of experience.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Frankler on August 22, 2008, 09:43:02 AM
I store and listen to all my music on the computer.

(http://f3c.yahoofs.com/shopping/3094431/simg_t_os453596277fc4af7ff7e41ea9b26f171489d594djpg?rm_____DJW2AFNid)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on August 22, 2008, 10:05:21 AM
Do a quick search in the archives my friend, and you find lots of info on that. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sound67 on August 22, 2008, 10:21:22 AM
I store and listen to all my music on the computer.

(http://f3c.yahoofs.com/shopping/3094431/simg_t_os453596277fc4af7ff7e41ea9b26f171489d594djpg?rm_____DJW2AFNid)

Now, I'm having an aneurism ---

Thomas
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 22, 2008, 11:24:07 AM
     I'm happy with my PSB Alpha Mini speakers, which work well in a small room. I do need a new receiver, though, and I'm looking at Pioneer and Yamaha. The depth is restricted on the shelf under the computer so not all brands can be considered, otherwise I'd very likely be looking for usual suspects like NAD, Marantz, or perhaps Outlaw. The biggest change will be adding a power amp at some point (Crown or QSC), and a better sub (SVS is the likeliest). For a computer based system, I think computer speakers should only fill a backup role when you don't want to turn on your main system.

     I just tested my PCs analog out and it's way inferior to digital out to a receiver. Best of all is integrating your PC into your main system when this can be done. Now you have your whole PC music collection available to the best sounding equipment you have. Second choice is digital out to a DAC/amp like the Bithead (http://www.headphone.com/products/headphone-amps/the-mobile-line/headroom-total-bithead.php) which will provide excellent sound to quality headphones and once again avoid the nasties produced by analog computer sound that's built into the case.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bonehelm on August 22, 2008, 06:51:41 PM
Who got worse speakers than me? I got Logitech Z-2300. Costed 250CND in stores back then but I got it for 80 off ebay.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: M forever on August 22, 2008, 10:42:46 PM
I just tested my PCs analog out and it's way inferior to digital out to a receiver. Best of all is integrating your PC into your main system when this can be done. Now you have your whole PC music collection available to the best sounding equipment you have. Second choice is digital out to a DAC/amp like the BitHead (http://) which will provide excellent sound to quality headphones and once again avoid the nasties produced by analog computer sound that's built into the case.

Very true. M is sitting here with his headphones hooked up to the BitHead right now (BTW, your link is empty, so here is the link to the BitHead: http://www.headphone.com/products/headphone-amps/the-mobile-line/headroom-total-bithead.php ). It's great for traveling - that's what is mainly made for - because it is so small but I also use it all the time when I move my laptop around the house.
For a stationary PC, it shouldn't be a problem at all though to find a sound card for not too much money with an S/PDIF digital out which pretty much any a/v receiver should accept.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 22, 2008, 10:45:05 PM
Who got worse speakers than me? I got Logitech Z-2300. Costed 250CND in stores back then but I got it for 80 off ebay.

Buying crappy speakers is waste of money. Buy quality loudspeakers. It's worth it. Good sound for 10-20 years. It's shocking to see what kind of plastic crap many use in order to "enjoy" their classical music.  :o

Good speakers don't cost more than ~$500/pair.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 23, 2008, 08:38:17 AM
Very true. M is sitting here with his headphones hooked up to the BitHead right now (BTW, your link is empty, so here is the link to the BitHead: http://www.headphone.com/products/headphone-amps/the-mobile-line/headroom-total-bithead.php ). It's great for traveling - that's what is mainly made for - because it is so small but I also use it all the time when I move my laptop around the house.
For a stationary PC, it shouldn't be a problem at all though to find a sound card for not too much money with an S/PDIF digital out which pretty much any a/v receiver should accept.

    Thanks, M. I corrected it anyway. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mark on August 24, 2008, 01:00:56 AM
I store and listen to all my music on the computer.

(http://f3c.yahoofs.com/shopping/3094431/simg_t_os453596277fc4af7ff7e41ea9b26f171489d594djpg?rm_____DJW2AFNid)

I have the model up from these ... but only for occasional use with my laptop. ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sound67 on August 24, 2008, 01:50:32 AM
Two separate stereo systems.

No.1

(http://www.hifi-regler.de/pictures/special/KEF_REFERENCE_203.jpg) + (http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/pics/musfidelity_a308_front.jpg) + (http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/4549/jolidamusicvan18ay.jpg)
KEF Reference 203 / Musical Fidelity A308 / Jolida Music Van Tube Reference CDP

and, as of late, ...

(http://blog.calaos.fr/images/sqeeze_duet1.jpg)
Logitech Squeezebox "Duet"

No.2

(http://www.hifi-regler.de/pictures/prodpics/small/s377007.jpg) + (http://www.hornfabrik-eder.de/a88t.jpeg) + (http://www.audioenz.co.nz/2003/images/arcam_cd93.jpg)
Klipsch Reference RF-7 + Cayin TI88 + Arcam CD 93

Thomas
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: rickardg on August 24, 2008, 02:09:53 AM
Which system should I plan on getting as a cheap entry system? I'm not into 'audiophile' stuff, I just want to play my CDs with reasonably good sound. Since I play a lot of music from my computers I suppose digital input would be a good idea?

If it matters the room is fairly small about 5m x 5m, one wall is windows from floor to ceiling (no curtains) and the wall opposite the speakers is covered with bookshelves.

Our current system is a Tivoli Audio Model Two with CD and subwoofer.
(http://sites.thestar.com.my/audio/articles/2007/8/6/audiofile/06tivoli.jpg)

It sounds alright most of the time but I think I detect some shrillness in the higher register when I turn the volume up for music with big dynamic range (e. g. the strings in loud tuttis) which I, cluelessly, attribute to the fact that the speakers are quite small. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sound67 on August 24, 2008, 02:13:31 AM
If it matters the room is fairly small about 5m x 5m, one wall is windows from floor to ceiling (no curtains)

Huge glass panes with no curtains? A worst-case audio scenario (the bookshelves are good though).

What's your floor like?

Quote
but I think I detect some shrillness in the higher register

Figures.

Thomas
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on August 24, 2008, 02:39:35 AM
I'd also say it's the speakers which count. I've got some Jamo D590 which are alright for me.
(http://di1.shopping.com/images1/pi/ea/2d/ac/20715905-177x150-0-0_Jamo+D+590.jpg)

A good old Pioneer A757 or 656 MK2 (not sure - other room ;)) - Wanted to replace it with a Cambridge Audio Amplifier, but no money currently  8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: rickardg on August 24, 2008, 02:46:03 AM
Huge glass panes with no curtains? A worst-case audio scenario (the bookshelves are good though).
Yes. I could negotiate some curtains if it would improve SQ significantly, but we like the view and the light.. :-)

What's your floor like?
Currently bare hardwood, but sooner or later we'll find a persian carpet large and cheap enough to cover most of it.

Figures.
Because of the speakers or the room?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sound67 on August 24, 2008, 02:49:34 AM
Yes. I could negotiate some curtains if it would improve SQ significantly...

Trust me, they will!  $:) - If you also address the issues below!

Quote
Currently bare hardwood

Ouch! If you now also remove the bookshelves you got the worst audio room in the entire solar system - except MAYBE a windowless cell consisting entirely of bare concrete.  ;D

Quote
Because of the speakers or the room?

The room. The speakers are the most important part of the audio equipment, but, actually, the most decisive factor of them all is the room! With your kind of living room, even a 1 mill stereo system wouldn't help much.  0:)

So get some curtains, a large carpet (the fluffier the better) - and even the Tivoli will sound better - not good, but better.  ;)

Thomas
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on August 24, 2008, 03:00:56 AM
Exactly my problem. 4x7m living room, 4m window without curtain, parquet floor ... Unfortunately no chance to change it (aka 'wife' :D).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sound67 on August 24, 2008, 03:05:39 AM
Unfortunately no chance to change it (aka 'wife' :D).

Well, ...  8)

@rickardg

Concerning the equipment to get once you've fixed the worst "room acoustics blunders" - there are infinite possibilities, depending on how much you're going to spend.

An inexpensive but clever solution is to get a set-up consisting of the better-quality compact stereo system with sufficient power to drive the speakers (like the Yamaha Pianocraft 320) - then forget about the speakers delivered with it and get a good set of none-too-smallish but none-too-powerhungry bookshelves (meaning bookshelf speakers of course :D), like the Klipsch Reference RB-25 or, better, RB-35 (now discontinued and available at great pirces!). This is what it would look like:

http://press.yamaha.co.jp/press/download/photo/jpg/2007/0708020102.jpg

Thomas

 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on August 24, 2008, 04:18:47 AM
Which system should I plan on getting as a cheap entry system? I'm not into 'audiophile' stuff, I just want to play my CDs with reasonably good sound. Since I play a lot of music from my computers I suppose digital input would be a good idea?
If you care about good (i.e. "accurate") sound, then you're into audiophile stuff.  You should be able to assemble a musically satisfying system with a stand-alone CD player, an integrated amplifier, and a pair of "bookshelf" speakers on stands for $1000 or less--especially if you're willing to buy used.  What is your budget, and where do you live?  (US, EU, Asia?)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sound67 on August 24, 2008, 04:39:33 AM
Exactly my problem. 4x7m living room, 4m window without curtain, parquet floor ... Unfortunately no chance to change it (aka 'wife' :D).

You're running a JAMO D590 set in that kind of room? These speakers definitely need good "dampening" with carpets, furniture and stuff - otherwise, their downfire bass will sound boomy.

Got those, too, when they were available "on the cheap" for 150 Euro a piece. THAT was a great deal (loaned them out to friends after playing around with them a bit).

Thomas
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on August 24, 2008, 05:02:50 AM
Yes, bought them when there was the hype in www forums. I thought my living room conditions would change but they won't. Do you think small carpets under the speakers could help? Well I think I'll try and listen...
All in all the sound is a bit poor in the mid range.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on August 24, 2008, 11:16:06 AM
If you care about good (i.e. "accurate") sound, then you're into audiophile stuff.  You should be able to assemble a musically satisfying system with a stand-alone CD player, an integrated amplifier, and a pair of "bookshelf" speakers on stands for $1000 or less--especially if you're willing to buy used.  What is your budget, and where do you live?  (US, EU, Asia?)

Absolutely second the suggestion to buy used.  Make the neuroticism of the typical audiophile, who is always changing components, work to your favour!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: M forever on August 24, 2008, 11:31:42 AM
If you care about good (i.e. "accurate") sound, then you're into audiophile stuff.

And if you really care about and actually understand good sound, you don't bother with all the audiophile marketing hype and just evaluate sound equipment based on solid, well understood technical criteria, and set it up using the right measurement methods to get the best performance from the equipment. It is, after all, playback equipment, not musical instruments.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: rickardg on August 24, 2008, 11:53:31 AM
@rickardg

Concerning the equipment to get once you've fixed the worst "room acoustics blunders" - there are infinite possibilities, depending on how much you're going to spend.
I'll definitely look into curtains, I'll have to think of some temporary solution to try out different arrangements, annoyingly it's all glass or reinforced concrete. I basically want the room as unresonant as possible?

An inexpensive but clever solution is to get a set-up consisting of the better-quality compact stereo system with sufficient power to drive the speakers (like the Yamaha Pianocraft 320) [...]
Clever, perhaps I should even dig out an old portable CD player I have lying around somewhere and get a proper amp?

If you care about good (i.e. "accurate") sound, then you're into audiophile stuff. 
To me an audiophile is interested in the audio technology per se and/or willing to spend 90% of the money to get the last 10% of performance (a perfectly valid approach). At this point I'm mostly interested in the music and happy to get the first 90% of performance, of course, you are probably right I might need audiophile stuff to get into the ninth decile... :-)

You should be able to assemble a musically satisfying system with a stand-alone CD player, an integrated amplifier, and a pair of "bookshelf" speakers on stands for $1000 or less--especially if you're willing to buy used.  What is your budget, and where do you live?  (US, EU, Asia?)
The short term budget is close to zero, we are renovating the entire flat, but stuff like carpets and curtains can go on the redecorating account. The mid term budget is around $1000 but hopefully less and the long term (years) a quite bit more. I'm certainly willing to buy used, it'll only be used to playing music, not as a home movie theatre.

I live in the EU (Sweden).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: sound67 on August 25, 2008, 07:19:47 AM
Clever, perhaps I should even dig out an old portable CD player I have lying around somewhere and get a proper amp?

That might not work. Most portable CD players only have an analogue output for the headphones, which you would trhen have to connect to the amp's RCA inputs. The sound signal put out by the portable player may be too weak, or of insufficient quality (like when you'd try to hook up an ordinary PC soundcard to the amp the same way). Either you have one that has a digital output (and an amp with digital input and D/A converter), or you buy an integrated system, or, as David suggested, some dedicated CDP and amp of decent quality.

Denon make a very good CD-AMP combination at a reasonable price, the DCD-700 and PMA-700 respectively. Together they cost something like USD 600 (?!), and the CDP even plays MP3 files and supports folders and ID-3 tags.

(http://www.avland.co.uk/denon/pma700/groupsil.jpg) (http://www.avland.co.uk/denon/pma700/groupblk.jpg)

Since several posters suggested used components: no problem with amps or speakers (if they aren't 10+ years old), though I'd be careful with CD or DVD players. Had some bad experiences myself with some, bought over eBay. Better to buy that stuff from a dealer.

Thomas
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on August 25, 2008, 08:04:08 AM
Since several posters suggested used components: no problem with amps or speakers (if they aren't 10+ years old), though I'd be careful with CD or DVD players. Had some bad experiences myself with some, bought over eBay. Better to buy that stuff from a dealer.
Haha, you just remind me I still have a Philips CD820 here (must be from 1988), works, does it's job does not want to die.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 25, 2008, 12:45:23 PM

     My dream system would be a dedicated HTPC (of that general type, that is) with only programs for audio/video functions installed feeding a pre/pro connected to a full array of omni-directional speakers (Walsh drivers) through a bank of high powered pro amps (~350 wpc or greater) and a pair of subs, each located to compensate for room-related deficiencies in bass response. None of these components would be outrageously expensive individually, though the total cost of the system would certainly be high. I'd start with a 2.1 system with one sub and build out from there.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Est.1965 on August 25, 2008, 01:01:53 PM
     My dream system would be a dedicated HTPC (of that general type, that is) with only programs for audio/video functions installed feeding a pre/pro connected to a full array of omni-directional speakers (Walsh drivers) through a bank of high powered pro amps (~350 wpc or greater) and a pair of subs, each located to compensate for room-related deficiencies in bass response. None of these components would be outrageously expensive individually, though the total cost of the system would certainly be high. I'd start with a 2.1 system with one sub and build out from there.

Oh well drogulus, this is out of the question then?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 25, 2008, 01:12:09 PM
Oh well drogulus, this is out of the question then?

      No, it's not. I would have to reorient my current more modest upgrade plan to incorporate 86 dB speakers instead of +90 dB, which would call for more power. The receiver in the current plan would serve in the high end version, too, and in fact replacing it may not be necessary at all, depending on future choices about video connections.

      This is how the Walsh driver works:

     (http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/999Ohmfig1.jpg)

     They stole my picture, so here's a different one.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on August 30, 2008, 04:08:08 AM
On the topic of audio, here's a guy with a nice, modest little system:

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10834

(http://i9.tinypic.com/4vpiv68.jpg)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on August 30, 2008, 04:16:36 AM

I'll definitely look into curtains, I'll have to think of some temporary solution to try out different arrangements, annoyingly it's all glass or reinforced concrete. I basically want the room as unresonant as possible?  See this introduction to room acoustics (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-Eo71K784O3J/learn/learningcenter/home/speakers_roomacoustics.html)

Clever, perhaps I should even dig out an old portable CD player I have lying around somewhere and get a proper amp? If money is so tight I wouldn't advise spending anything on stopgap solutions that offer little improvement and only waste your limited resources.

To me an audiophile is interested in the audio technology per se and/or willing to spend 90% of the money to get the last 10% of performance (a perfectly valid approach). At this point I'm mostly interested in the music and happy to get the first 90% of performance, of course, you are probably right I might need audiophile stuff to get into the ninth decile... :-)  Sounds to me like a very strange definition of "audiophile"--though one consistent with using the term as a perjorative stereotype as practiced by a number of particularly narrow-minded and self-impressed posters on this site--a class to which you do not belong.  I think an audiophile is one who cares about sound quality and seeks recordings & playback equipment that provide a close approximation to the actual sound of the live performance.  The ones you describe certainly exist (and they have their parallels among consumers of virtually every commodity known to man) but they are only a small subset of the general class.  Most audiophiles I've known have limited funds, like you, and want to spend their money wisely to get the most satisfying return for their investment.  There are several companies geared to the audiophile market that specialize in very high value at the opposite end of the marginal utility spectrum you describe--getting 90% of the performance for 10% of the price.

The short term budget is close to zero, we are renovating the entire flat, but stuff like carpets and curtains can go on the redecorating account. The mid term budget is around $1000 but hopefully less and the long term (years) a quite bit more. I'm certainly willing to buy used, it'll only be used to playing music, not as a home movie theatre.

I live in the EU (Sweden).  My great-grandparents left Sweden more than a century ago so I haven't kept up with current prices.  ;D  My recommendations for people in North America seeking good sound quality at a low price is to start with electronics by NAD (or similar outfits like Arcam, Adcom, Rotel, Cambridge Audio) and speakers by one of the Canadian companies whose subsidized R&D keeps prices low: Paradigm Atoms and PSB Alpha B1s are both under $300US.  For a little bit more money (though less if used, if you can find them), you might look into Mike Creek's offerings.  I still use my 20 year old Creek 4040 amp in a second system, and if I were buying compact speakers today, his EPOS ELS3 minimonitors would be high on my audition list.  But maybe the best approach would be to visit your nearest retailer and hear what he recommends--and if you do, and like what you hear, then buy from him rather than screwing him over to save a few bucks on the internet. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on August 30, 2008, 04:27:15 AM
On the topic of audio, here's a guy with a nice, modest little system:

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10834
I guess that's what you do if you're spiritually retarded but have several millions in stock options from working for computer or software companies in the '80s and early '90s.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 30, 2008, 06:35:30 AM

     If all being an audiophile amounted to was violating the law of diminishing returns no one could object. The problem is that much of what they do is stupid and pointless. It's a titanic waste of resources to buy a $10,000 CD player if you don't intend to put it on a pedestal in a museum. Even if such a player was .05 % better than a $1,000 model the imbalance in the system is preposterous considering what you can do with that budget. So even ignoring diminishing returns this  makes  no  sense  at  all.


 




Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on August 30, 2008, 07:57:12 AM
     If all being an audiophile amounted to was violating the law of diminishing returns no one could object. The problem is that much of what they do is stupid and pointless. It's a titanic waste of resources to buy a $10,000 CD player if you don't intend to put it on a pedestal in a museum. Even if such a player was .05 % better than a $1,000 model the imbalance in the system is preposterous considering what you can do with that budget. So even ignoring diminishing returns this  makes  no  sense  at  all.
Obviously it does make sense to the person who makes such a purchase.  As usual, Ernie here confuses the beliefs he wants to impose on others with fact. 

 





Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: M forever on August 30, 2008, 05:29:26 PM
Yes, but it only makes as much sense as jerking off with golden gloves. It doesn't make technical or musical sense.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 30, 2008, 05:46:33 PM
On the topic of audio, here's a guy with a nice, modest little system:

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10834

(http://i9.tinypic.com/4vpiv68.jpg)



     Who designed those? Luc Besson?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Joe_Campbell on August 30, 2008, 06:39:14 PM
On the topic of audio, here's a guy with a nice, modest little system:

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10834

(http://i9.tinypic.com/4vpiv68.jpg)



I can't figure out what he's driving through those massive black holes in his wall. What do you think?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Lethevich on August 30, 2008, 06:46:40 PM
I can't figure out what he's driving through those massive black holes in his wall. What do you think?

One thing I did realise was how easily they might allow his home to be broken into.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: M forever on August 30, 2008, 08:48:48 PM
Those are probably horn-loaded subwoofers (with exponential CD horns which are the openings you see). I don't understand though why that makes his house easier to break into?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on August 31, 2008, 02:03:51 AM
Impressive. This setup makes sense.
If a) you're deaf and need to feel the music b) you don't know how else to waste your money, c) no wife, no grandchildren, no life, no hope.  ;D Honestly. It's the same like the people with monster lawnmowers on their 10m² lawn.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Lethevich on August 31, 2008, 06:24:54 AM
Those are probably horn-loaded subwoofers (with exponential CD horns which are the openings you see). I don't understand though why that makes his house easier to break into?

A house designed to repell intruders (safely locked windows, doors) will require some breaking to get into - smashed glass, etc, all creating sounds that could alert nearby people. I was thinking about how easy it may (or may not) be to simply remove a panel of those huge horn things, given how flimsy they look. The whole bit where they connect to the wall also shouts "point of access"... Still, it is not something I could test, however much it interests me ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on August 31, 2008, 08:41:28 AM
Those are probably horn-loaded subwoofers (with exponential CD horns which are the openings you see). I don't understand though why that makes his house easier to break into?

The full link shows it in more detail.  They are, indeed, bass horns driven by compressions drivers, as you can see in this view from the exterior of his house:

(http://i18.tinypic.com/6g054eg.jpg)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 31, 2008, 08:56:30 AM
(http://i9.tinypic.com/4vpiv68.jpg)



Seems he neglected his power supply:


(http://www.chipquik.com/graphics/store/strips/plugs_sm.jpg)






 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Wanderer on August 31, 2008, 10:33:17 AM
(http://i18.tinypic.com/6g054eg.jpg)

What a waste of space; this patch of land could become a nice little garden.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 31, 2008, 10:48:29 AM


    I'd hook up my bass to those things and see if I could get some interesting feedback. (I'd probably get some interesting feedback from the neighbors :))
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Joe_Campbell on August 31, 2008, 03:59:23 PM

    I'd hook up my bass to those things and see if I could get some interesting feedback. (I'd probably get some interesting feedback from the neighbors :))
See what a nice square wave looks like? Maybe even a saw? ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: M forever on August 31, 2008, 04:03:31 PM
The full link shows it in more detail.  They are, indeed, bass horns driven by compressions drivers, as you can see in this view from the exterior of his house:

(http://i18.tinypic.com/6g054eg.jpg)

OK, that is pretty funny. And pretty silly, too. I know what the theory behind this shape and the dimensions of the horn throat is, but that is really totally over the top.

I don't see the point behind those double drivers though, especially since he already has two horns and regular 2" drivers already produce such a high SPL (esp.in the small space of the listening room) that it could easily go well over the pain threshhold. Taking into account that that is probably not what the idea is and that, yes, generously spread out power requirements make sure that the drivers operate in a for them comfortable dynamic range with low distortion, it still is a total overkill.

None of the instruments on his recordings have such large bass resonators in reality, so unless he listens to a lot of church organ stuff (but again, in that small room?) or his aim is to faithfully reproduce the sound of alphorns in his living room, there is really no point in that setup. In order to time-align the subwoofer horns with the woofers in his main speakers (and those woofers with the mid and high range drivers) to avoid phase shifts between the components, delay circuits would be needed which I don't see in his equipment rack. The number of delay circuits that would be needed to align all these drivers would add a lot of processing to the playback chain which on the other hand is generally an audiophile no-no. So the basic design of the speakers themselves is already faulty.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: rickardg on September 01, 2008, 03:25:03 AM
Thanks to all those that posted helpful advice.

Some experiments with an old foam mattress and a couple of blankets have thoroughly cured me from any desire to buy new hardware before I've done something about the room acoustics. The hardest problem will probably be to dampen the glass wall.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 07:14:21 AM
NAD Amp, KEF speakers, Sony CD player, which I need to upgrade when I can afford it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Joe_Campbell on September 01, 2008, 08:18:32 AM
NAD Amp, KEF speakers, Sony CD player, which I need to upgrade when I can afford it.
Do you mean you need to specifically upgrade the cd player, or the entire system? If so, what is the reason? I've never understood the benefit of a high quality cd player, although I'm admittedly not very familiar with the subject.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on September 01, 2008, 08:52:09 AM
Do you mean you need to specifically upgrade the cd player, or the entire system? If so, what is the reason? I've never understood the benefit of a high quality cd player, although I'm admittedly not very familiar with the subject.
The CD player must read the pits in the disc accurately and then convert those digital 1s and 0s to analog electrical signals which then get amplified to power your speakers and reproduce the sound of music. Here's a wiki article that explains the basic process and variables involved. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital-to-analog_converter)  A good one will do the job well, reliably creating a signal that will accurately reproduce the sound of the recorded performance.  A bad one can be unlistenable, as were virtually all CD players in the early days...unless you liked having your teeth set on edge!

There have been several posts on other threads about the merits of CD players.  Some folks have claimed that there is literally no difference whatsoever among different players.  Others have pointed out, correctly, that the differences among CD players are generally of much lower magnitude than the differences among loudspeakers.  (Some have concluded from this that therefore only idiots would care about CD player quality.  :o )

You can theorize all you like about the existence or non-existence of differences, or the comparative significance of differences, or others' ability to hear the differences, and so on, but the only way to know whether they matter and how much to you is to find out for yourself by the simple expedient of some comparative listening. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 12:32:33 PM
Do you mean you need to specifically upgrade the cd player, or the entire system? If so, what is the reason? I've never understood the benefit of a high quality cd player, although I'm admittedly not very familiar with the subject.

I just meant the CD player. Your post interests me. Are you saying that there is no need to upgrade the CD player?  The NAD and KEF components of the system are relatively new (bought second hand off a friend) but the Sony CD player, bought new many years ago is, I thought, the weakest component of the system and I always assumed that a better player would improve the sound quality. I am quite lo-fi and v ignorant of the technology but the NAD amp and KEF speakers made an appreciable difference in sound quality. The Sony player does not always recognise the discs. My cheapo portable always recognizes the discs, so that is another issue with the Sony player.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 12:35:49 PM
The CD player must read the pits in the disc accurately and then convert those digital 1s and 0s to analog electrical signals which then get amplified to power your speakers and reproduce the sound of music. Here's a wiki article that explains the basic process and variables involved. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital-to-analog_converter)  A good one will do the job well, reliably creating a signal that will accurately reproduce the sound of the recorded performance.  A bad one can be unlistenable, as were virtually all CD players in the early days...unless you liked having your teeth set on edge!

There have been several posts on other threads about the merits of CD players.  Some folks have claimed that there is literally no difference whatsoever among different players.  Others have pointed out, correctly, that the differences among CD players are generally of much lower magnitude than the differences among loudspeakers.  (Some have concluded from this that therefore only idiots would care about CD player quality.  :o )

You can theorize all you like about the existence or non-existence of differences, or the comparative significance of differences, or others' ability to hear the differences, and so on, but the only way to know whether they matter and how much to you is to find out for yourself by the simple expedient of some comparative listening. 

Thanks David. Interesting points. A friend recently changed his CD player and said that it made an appeciable difference to sound quality.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Mark on September 01, 2008, 01:04:26 PM
If money, time and space permitted, I'd like this system from Linn (http://www.linn.co.uk/klimax_music_system).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on September 01, 2008, 01:47:06 PM
Thanks David. Interesting points. A friend recently changed his CD player and said that it made an appeciable difference to sound quality.

     All of my new equipment produces an appreciable difference. Not all appreciable differences are real, though. I'd want to know more about the reality of the difference before spending a large sum. If there's not much money involved, then you can indulge your whims and play around with the placebo effect. If you plan on spending a big sum, it would be a good idea to apportion your spending according to a realistic idea of where it will do the most good.

     Since you have good inexpensive components by NAD and KEF, this would indicate you want value for money. So you can stick with your basic approach and only replace the CD player if you have a reason to.

     It isn't necessary to believe that all CD players sound exactly alike. There are possible tiny differences that don't relate to output level. They tend to disappear when tested for. It doesn't matter if CD players aren't exactly the same, since the unimportance of any difference (like for example one you can't hear unless you know the players identity and/or price tag) is what really matters. The theology of CD player differences doesn't matter. What should matter is how your system sounds.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: vandermolen on September 01, 2008, 02:11:01 PM
Point taken thanks. I don't have much money to spend on it anyway, so will look around and listen to recommendations.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Joe_Campbell on September 25, 2008, 09:55:52 PM
Now that it's complete, I figured I post my 'stereo system' in its entirety:

http://ca.denon.com/ProductDetails/3321.asp

What a great, simply to use and set up receiver! No complaints.

http://www.bostonacoustics.com/HS-50-P161.aspx

I like these speakers a lot, and the price was right. Very powerful for their size.

http://nadelectronics.com/products/cd-players/C515BEE-CD-Player

This is a nice CD player...

And...because I had a few other things to hook up as well, I got this universal remote:

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/remotes/universal_remotes/devices/376&cl=us,en

What a sweet remote. It was so easy to program; it also included support for my comparatively older TV.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Siedler on October 21, 2008, 12:52:31 PM
So, I've found a guy who's selling used B&W CM1 speakers. Now I need to find an amp, I think I'll go with a stereo amp because I don't watch movies that much plus I'll only have a 2.0 setup. Hardly any stereo amps have optical-in, correct? If I'm going to use my Macbook as cdplayer, does it matter whether I use optical or analog (I mean the sound quality-wise)?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on October 21, 2008, 01:15:40 PM
So, I've found a guy who's selling used B&W CM1 speakers. Now I need to find an amp, I think I'll go with a stereo amp because I don't watch movies that much plus I'll only have a 2.0 setup. Hardly any stereo amps have optical-in, correct? If I'm going to use my Macbook as cdplayer, does it matter whether I use optical or analog (I mean the sound quality-wise)?

    If the sound quality of the analog out on your laptop is very good you could run it into your amp with good results. You could compare the sound from a CD playing on your laptop through the headphone out of the amp with the sound of a CD player. Most often the player will be much better than the laptop. You would need to use a USB sound card from the laptop to get analog sound as good as the player.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 21, 2008, 02:02:41 PM
So, I've found a guy who's selling used B&W CM1 speakers. Now I need to find an amp, I think I'll go with a stereo amp because I don't watch movies that much plus I'll only have a 2.0 setup. Hardly any stereo amps have optical-in, correct? If I'm going to use my Macbook as cdplayer, does it matter whether I use optical or analog (I mean the sound quality-wise)?

Macbooks have an optical out through their 1/8" headphone jack.  I got a Monster optical cable that came with the 1/8" adapter, and I hook this up to a Perpetual Technologies P3-A DAC.  The PerpTech is pretty old, and I'm sure they have better sounding and cheaper external DACs now.

There are also receivers and integrated amps coming out now with built in DACs that can take computer input, like the Outlaw Audio receiver which has an USB input:

http://outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html



Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 21, 2008, 10:47:00 PM
(http://www.listenup.com/images/nht/xd.jpg)

The UPS guy brought me this system today.  It's the NHT Xd speaker system.  It's an active sattelite/subwoofer system, but the satellites have no crossover, that's all done in the digital domain by the electronic box in the middle there, which is a class D digital amplifier with a built-in digital signal processor.  This is selling for half price on the web, unfortunately because NHT gave up on the whole concept.

You can't really get an impression from this pic of just how tiny the satellites are.  Maybe I'll tidy up later and snap a pic in situ. 



Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on October 22, 2008, 06:54:27 AM
(http://www.listenup.com/images/nht/xd.jpg)

The UPS guy brought me this system today.  It's the NHT Xd speaker system.  It's an active sattelite/subwoofer system, but the satellites have no crossover, that's all done in the digital domain by the electronic box in the middle there, which is a class D digital amplifier with a built-in digital signal processor.  This is selling for half price on the web, unfortunately because NHT gave up on the whole concept.

You can't really get an impression from this pic of just how tiny the satellites are.  Maybe I'll tidy up later and snap a pic in situ. 

The problem with 2.1 systems consisting of very small satellite speakers is high crossover frequency between satellites and subwoofer. Here it seems to be 110 Hz which is pretty high and makes it difficult to obtain coherent soundfield. The location of subwoofer is also easily heard. I'd recommend 2.1 systems consisting of larger satellites that go down to 40-60 Hz leaving the lowest octave or so to subwoofer.

I haven't heard NHT Xd speaker system myself but I'd say you can do (soundwise) much better with $6000 and probably even with the half price.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 22, 2008, 10:53:25 AM
The problem with 2.1 systems consisting of very small satellite speakers is high crossover frequency between satellites and subwoofer. Here it seems to be 110 Hz which is pretty high and makes it difficult to obtain coherent soundfield. The location of subwoofer is also easily heard. I'd recommend 2.1 systems consisting of larger satellites that go down to 40-60 Hz leaving the lowest octave or so to subwoofer.

I haven't heard NHT Xd speaker system myself but I'd say you can do (soundwise) much better with $6000 and probably even with the half price.

But you can't really aurally localize the subwoofer in this system, or at least I can't.  However, if it becomes a problem, there's a connection for another subwoofer.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: M forever on October 22, 2008, 08:51:16 PM
Did you really pay $6000 for that stuff?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 22, 2008, 10:56:14 PM
Did you really pay $6000 for that stuff?

$3000 at closeout, for two satellites with stands, a 500W dual 10" driver subwoofer, and the 4x150W channel amp with DSP.

I shopped for speakers for several weeks, all floorstanders in the under $5000 range, and heard several in the under $9000 range (B&W 803S and 803D, PSB Synchrony One, Paradigm Signature S6, Thiel 2.4, Sonus Faber Grand Piano Home, Dali Helicon 400 Mk. 2, Aerial 7B and 9, and Revel F52).   I think the NHT system sounds better than all of them, including the $9000 B&W 803D, but maybe accepting the Dalis ($6300) and the Aerial 9s ($9000).   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on October 23, 2008, 12:17:59 PM

    Small satellites usually have limited dynamic abilities, even when using a subwooofer. That would be my main concern with a system like this, besides the high crossover. At $3,000, though, it could be a good system for a smallish room.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 23, 2008, 02:09:57 PM
    Small satellites usually have limited dynamic abilities, even when using a subwooofer. That would be my main concern with a system like this, besides the high crossover. At $3,000, though, it could be a good system for a smallish room.

Ultimately, yes, you can only get so much out of small satellites.  But practically, I'll never get close to their limits.  Even if I didn't live in a condo, I'm not a "turn it up to 11" kind of guy.  I haven't noticed any dynamic compression at the moderate volumes I listen at.  This is in a living room/dining room with an open floorplan and vaulted ceiling (sloping from 11' to 19' high; it's a large volume.)
 
If another subwoofer is added, you can get more dynamics out of them by increasing the crossover frequency. This is discussed in some of the reviews linked below, if you're curious.

The whole point of keeping the satellites small was to have a very small baffle for wide dispersion.   These things have huge dispersion in both the horizontal and vertical planes.

If you're curious there are several reviews on the web:

http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1105nht/
http://nhthifi.com/current/nht-reviews.html
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/nht_xd.htm

As to whether I'd recommend these, I'm not sure.  You can't mix and match power amps with them, they only work with the NHT XdA amp.  You'll need a preamp or an integrated/receiver with preamp outputs.  This is probably one reason audiophiles never took to them.  That and the extra A/D step.  The subwoofer is not really generaly useful (no phase control, for example; that's all handled by the XdA.)  And it's an orphan product: while NHT is continuing to warranty them, they aren't updating the firmware or filters anymore, and the originally promised room correction software never materialized, and this stuff is all proprietary. 

Also, it's not easy to upgrade this to a multi-channel system.  They do sell a 6.2 Xd system, but I'm not even sure how that's configured or how it works with typical classical multi-channel discs.   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Peregrine on December 13, 2008, 09:48:27 AM
Just bought these two beauties:

ARCAM A18 amp (in black):

(http://www.hifix.co.uk/graphics/pics/large/108737.jpg)


and Roksan Kandy MKIII CD player:

(http://www.roksan.co.uk/images/kandycdng.jpg)

Still hooked up to my old Celestion 9's speakers, but have some Acoustic Energy Aelite's on the way. Been listening to tunes all day!

 0:)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 13, 2008, 11:23:43 AM
Looks like solid gear.  Did you try any of the Arcam CD players?

Here's the CD player I ended up keeping, the Cambridge Azur 840C:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31DLYQ06XEL._SS500_.jpg)

One thing that influenced the purchase was the inclusion of 2 D/A inputs (1 coaxial or optical each).  So I can plug my Macbook optical out into the CD player.    There are also balanced outputs, though my pre-amp is only single ended.

I also recently acquired my first piece of tube gear, a used Rogue Magnum 99 pre-amp:

(http://www.savantaudio.com/RA99MI.JPG)

This adds a touch of tube warmth, texture, and fullness.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 13, 2008, 11:40:12 AM
The problem with 2.1 systems consisting of very small satellite speakers is high crossover frequency between satellites and subwoofer. Here it seems to be 110 Hz which is pretty high and makes it difficult to obtain coherent soundfield. The location of subwoofer is also easily heard. I'd recommend 2.1 systems consisting of larger satellites that go down to 40-60 Hz leaving the lowest octave or so to subwoofer.

I haven't heard NHT Xd speaker system myself but I'd say you can do (soundwise) much better with $6000 and probably even with the half price.

I agree, I can here the localization approaching 80 Hz and higher.  If he used larger speakers he could could cross over at 80 Hz or lower and there wouldn't be a problem.  Now I haven't heard high end satellites, but I really have trouble imagining them projecting well. :-\
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 13, 2008, 12:15:11 PM
I agree, I can here the localization approaching 80 Hz and higher.  If he used larger speakers he could could cross over at 80 Hz or lower and there wouldn't be a problem.  Now I haven't heard high end satellites, but I really have trouble imagining them projecting well. :-\

What does projecting mean?

Come on guys, what you imagine or theorize isn't very interesting if you haven't heard the speakers.

After I bought these, I started hearing good things about another DSP-based active system, the Emerald Physics CS2.  It's quite different from the NHT system in that it uses controlled dispersion to reduce room interaction and a Behringer digital crossover rather than a custom DEQX unit, so the user can tweak it for room correction.  You have to supply 4 channels of amplification yourself, though.  There's a rave in the latest TAS.  I've already blown my wad on speakers for a while, though. 

(http://www.stereotimes.com/images/Emerald-Physics-RAM-roomPS.jpg)

You can see the Behringer unit in the middle.





Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 13, 2008, 12:27:10 PM
I will just address the system I have in my workroom, since that is the one I I have room to improve or mess with  (upstairs is sort of set and rather put the money here). (pics from the net)

Right now, I have this Pro-Ject Debut III turntable.
Manual turntable with fitted cartridge.  The Pro-Ject Debut includes a pre-mounted Ortofon OM-5E moving magnet phono cartridge and is an excellent choice for the audiophile seeking a cost effective vinyl playback solution. A felt-covered steel platter mates to a chrome plated stainless-steel axle running in a brass bearing housing for exceptional speed stability and accuracy. The aluminum tonearm employs inverted hardened stainless-steel points for superior tracking with the supplied phono cartridge. A silicone-damped armlift is supplied.

(http://www.butlin.com/2006_01/project_debphv.jpg)

It is hitched to this Realistic STA-2100 amp/receiver:

(http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/image.php?image=362171&is_user=0)

The speakers are these:

Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 Bookshelf Speakers
Power 100w Nominal Impedence 6 ohm
Sensitivity 1W@1m 86dB
Frequency Range at-6dB 50Hz-24kHz
Cabinet size mm H296 W194 D278

(http://autosoundz.co.nz/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/DIAMOND9_1Rth.jpg)

However, I just learned from my brother-in-law that he no longer wants my dad's old Sansui floor speakers and Pioneer amp that we had in our living room back in the late 60's/ early 70's.  So, they are coming my way this month.  I cannot wait to hear the old system again.  Hopefully the cones do not need to be refurbished.

As for the cd player, I will not bother with the details as it needs replaced....soon.


Daverz,
Would much appreciate a top-ten classical vinyl list from you. 


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 13, 2008, 03:05:22 PM
Come on guys, what you imagine or theorize isn't very interesting if you haven't heard the speakers.

We're not theorizing, crossover localization is something anyone with a hifi has experience with.  Unless you mean to claim that your satellites have a low crossover frequency, but I really would doubt that.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 13, 2008, 03:25:36 PM
We're not theorizing, crossover localization is something anyone with a hifi has experience with.  Unless you mean to claim that your satellites have a low crossover frequency, but I really would doubt that.

The crossover slope for the Xd system is 48db/octave, so I'm not sure you can judge it by experience with passive crossovers (typically 6, 12, or 18 dB/octave).  As I said before, I cannot hear the subwoofer location with this system, though that may be because of my batcave of a room.  I've considered going with the stereo subwoofer setup supported by the XdA processor, but I don't think I need it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 13, 2008, 03:53:00 PM
The Pro-Ject Debut includes a pre-mounted Ortofon OM-5E moving magnet phono cartridge and is an excellent choice for the audiophile seeking a cost effective vinyl playback solution.[/i]

I recently picked up an Audio Technical 150mlx from, of all places, Amazon (via J&R Music World at half MSRP).  I was really impressed by this cartridge.  I have more comments on it here. (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=vinyl&n=798989) 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41DAX6JNX5L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

It has a replaceable microline stylus and is an excellent tracker.

However, because of the setup of my current equipment, I'm back to using my Benz Micro L2 moving coil.  I got it for half price, but I'm not really willing to pay that much again for something that starts wearing down on day one and costs as much for a retip as I originally paid for it.

Quote
It is hitched to this Realistic STA-2100 amp/receiver:

That's a beauty.

Quote
Daverz,
Would much appreciate a top-ten classical vinyl list from you. 

Oh, dear, I'm not Teresa.  I've only managed to collect 1 or 2 shaded dogs, for example.  But I'll think about it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 13, 2008, 04:04:33 PM
Thanks.  It never gets passed the 9 o'clock on the volume knob.  Weighs more than my car, but I do enjoy it.

My Pro-Ject Debut III was within my price range as I re-entered the analogue world of music.  I read a few reviews and based my final purchase on that as it sounded GREAT at the stereo shop, but what doesn't with their set-ups.   However, as I shared with Allan,there are some other tables I would like to try, but  ;D:

http://www.bornrich.org/entry/top-10-most-expensive-turntables/

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 13, 2008, 04:10:33 PM



     (http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/image.php?image=362171&is_user=0)

     Nice!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 13, 2008, 04:13:38 PM
The only flaw with it is that the lighting is no longer working.  Is this a quick or difficult fix?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 13, 2008, 04:23:04 PM
The only flaw with it is that the lighting is no longer working.  Is this a quick or difficult fix?

I bet someone on Audio Asylum would know:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/vintage/bbs.html
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 13, 2008, 04:39:34 PM
I bet someone on Audio Asylum would know:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/vintage/bbs.html

I will register and post this weekend.  Thanks!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 13, 2008, 04:43:00 PM
I bet someone on Audio Asylum would know:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/vintage/bbs.html

    You might find a local tech who'd work on it. Sometimes it's the same guy who replaces the filter caps in old Fender/Marshall guitar amps. If you can't find a used audio place check out the local guitar shop. Often the guy does the work on site, or they'll recommend a tech. There's always someone to do this work.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 13, 2008, 05:12:28 PM
http://www.bornrich.org/entry/top-10-most-expensive-turntables/

That $19,000 VPI looks like a bargain!

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 13, 2008, 09:48:12 PM
That $19,000 VPI looks like a bargain!



I believe it comes with free shipping as well. 8) 

A couple months ago I had the privilege to attend an audio (no visual equipment, just audio) show here in Denver.  161 rooms of audio equipment.  Some neat stuff.  As I entered one room they saw I had purchased some vinyl from a dealer at the show.  They asked if it would be ok to play it on the turntable they had set up.  I told them I had no idea what the true condition of the vinyl was and they probably should just use their stuff.  However, they insisted, so I handed them a record.  In short, it sounded great.  Cost of the turntable: $90,000.  As I posted some time back, I had the opportunity at the same show to here a $250,000 system.  Now, this is all pie in the sky equipment for me, but I have to agree with my dad.  That is, in most cases, you get what you pay for.  More often than not, the higher end stuff just sounds better.  I am sure there is some equipment not worth its price, but when they played Sinatra on that 1/4 mill system, I was looking for my autograph book for him to sign.

Question: I noticed that many of the high end cd players had the cd so it was exposed and that it had some type of hub that you had to screw down over the top of it before playing.  Anyone else ever see one of these, or own one?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 13, 2008, 10:04:00 PM
Here is one for $23,000.
(http://www.bornrich.org/images/r_most_expensive_cd_player_by_metronome_technologie.jpg)

Here is the one I believe I saw.  I was mistaken.  It seems it has a lid, but you can see the hub that goes over the cd.  Anyone know its purpose?

(http://www.mbl-germany.de/pix_1621/1621_03_500x330.jpg)

Here is their price list:
http://www.mbl-usa.com/Browse.aspx/402/mbl-Systems
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on December 14, 2008, 12:33:27 AM
  Anyone know its purpose?


To stabilize the disc, reduce vibrations and corresponding mistracking and henceforth the onset of error correction and signal interpolation.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 14, 2008, 06:15:06 AM
To stabilize the disc, reduce vibrations and corresponding mistracking and henceforth the onset of error correction and signal interpolation.

So, this has more to do with preventing reading errors than actually making it "sound" better.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on December 14, 2008, 06:56:50 AM
So, this has more to do with preventing reading errors than actually making it "sound" better.
Depends upon what you think about how error correction (and worse, signal interpolation) with the corresponding jitter, influences the resulting sound, a discussion there is no need to pursue further here.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 14, 2008, 07:21:22 AM
Depends upon what you think about how error correction (and worse, signal interpolation) with the corresponding jitter, influences the resulting sound, a discussion there is no need to pursue further here.

Thanks, though I disagree with your last point as I am in the market for a cd player (and the thread does have in the title "plan on getting") and was unaware of minor jitters that may influence sound.  However, you seem to have the knowledge about this component to answer one last question, if you will, about this aspect.  Are there any specs one could look at to determine if a cd player is at a decent level for stabilizing the cd?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 14, 2008, 07:58:15 AM
Thanks, though I disagree with your last point as I am in the market for a cd player (and the thread does have in the title "plan on getting") and was unaware of minor jitters that may influence sound.  However, you seem to have the knowledge about this component to answer one last question, if you will, about this aspect.  Are there any specs one could look at to determine if a cd player is at a decent level for stabilizing the cd?

Bill disregard audiophools blatherings about jitter, it's not audible.  Based on logical reasoning it's not audible.  Based on double blind tests it's not audible.  If anyone tells you that they can here jitter they are either deluded or lying to you.  Do not waste lots of money hoping to get rid of something that you can't hear anyway. 

Now after I post this there might be a few, there might even be many posters that will say things like "no fool! if you had the equipment that I had, you would know!" and they might even post long pseudoscience articles to make their point.  Don't read those articles, they will just waste your time, and will merely be posted to give a false air of authority to their claims.  Ignore anyone that tells they can hear jitter, they are fools.

And if you start buying expensive dacs and other equipment where does it end?  Soon enough you'll be buying snake oil cables, convinced that you can hear a difference when anyone with common sense knows that all cables sound the same for home purpose runs (< 10 m).  Just walk away, SAVE YOURSELF! :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 14, 2008, 08:03:59 AM
Bill disregard audiophools blatherings about jitter, it's not audible.  Based on logical reasoning it's not audible.  Based on double blind tests it's not audible.  If anyone tells you that they can here jitter they are either deluded or lying to you.  Do not waste lots of money hoping to get rid of something that you can't hear anyway. 

Now after I post this there might be a few, there might even be many posters that will say things like "no fool! if you had the equipment that I had, you would know!" and they might even post long pseudoscience articles to make their point.  Don't read those articles, they will just waste your time, and will merely be posted to give a false air of authority to their claims.  Ignore anyone that tells they can hear jitter, they are fools.

And if you start buying expensive dacs and other equipment where does it end?  Soon enough you'll be buying snake oil cables, convinced that you can hear a difference when anyone with common sense knows that all cables sound the same for home purpose runs (< 10 m).  Just walk away, SAVE YOURSELF! :D

 :D


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 14, 2008, 10:02:43 AM
Bill disregard audiophools blatherings about jitter, it's not audible.  Based on logical reasoning it's not audible.  Based on double blind tests it's not audible.  If anyone tells you that they can here jitter they are either deluded or lying to you.  Do not waste lots of money hoping to get rid of something that you can't hear anyway. 

Now after I post this there might be a few, there might even be many posters that will say things like "no fool! if you had the equipment that I had, you would know!" and they might even post long pseudoscience articles to make their point.  Don't read those articles, they will just waste your time, and will merely be posted to give a false air of authority to their claims.  Ignore anyone that tells they can hear jitter, they are fools.

And if you start buying expensive dacs and other equipment where does it end?  Soon enough you'll be buying snake oil cables, convinced that you can hear a difference when anyone with common sense knows that all cables sound the same for home purpose runs (< 10 m).  Just walk away, SAVE YOURSELF! :D


     Would you like to hear some jitter? The only way you can hear it is by deliberately boosting it to levels far higher than your player will produce, even if it's not a very good player specwise.

     Here's the jitter track from the Stereophile Test CD 2 Turn your speakers down before you run the test. It's unpleasant and could damage your speakers.

     Jitter demonstration track with spoken warning (L+R) (DDD) 0:48
11kHz at -10dBFS (00:12), 11kHz affected by 10ns p-p jitter of 4kHz tone (00:22), 11kHz pure (00:37)
     


     [mp3=200,20,0,center]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/11/2/1559968/Jitter.mp3[/mp3]

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 14, 2008, 10:14:20 AM

     Would you like to hear some jitter? The only way you can hear it is by deliberately boosting it to levels far higher than your player will produce, even if it's not a very good player specwise.

     Here's the jitter track from the Stereophile Test CD 2 Turn your speakers down before you run the test. It's unpleasant and could damage your speakers.

     Jitter demonstration track with spoken warning (L+R) (DDD) 0:48
11kHz at -10dBFS (00:12), 11kHz affected by 10ns p-p jitter of 4kHz tone (00:22), 11kHz pure (00:37)
     


     [mp3=200,20,0,center]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/11/2/1559968/Jitter.mp3[/mp3]

     

Awesome Ernie!  Even when artificially boosted and put in a simple tone where you shouldn't miss it, it's still subtle!! :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 14, 2008, 10:39:41 AM

     Would you like to hear some jitter? The only way you can hear it is by deliberately boosting it to levels far higher than your player will produce, even if it's not a very good player specwise.

     Here's the jitter track from the Stereophile Test CD 2 Turn your speakers down before you run the test. It's unpleasant and could damage your speakers.

     Jitter demonstration track with spoken warning (L+R) (DDD) 0:48
11kHz at -10dBFS (00:12), 11kHz affected by 10ns p-p jitter of 4kHz tone (00:22), 11kHz pure (00:37)
     


     [mp3=200,20,0,center]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/11/2/1559968/Jitter.mp3[/mp3]

     

Wow.  Thanks for that.  Sounded like some sonic weapon from Star Trek.  So, in short, this is not a spec that I need to even worry about.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 14, 2008, 10:51:55 AM
Wow.  Thanks for that.  Sounded like some sonic weapon from Star Trek.  So, in short, this is not a spec that I need to even worry about.

Well the tone was the sonic weapon, the jitter was the hiccup. ;D  Well I guess you would need to worry about it if you want to build sonic weapons. ;D tehehe
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on December 14, 2008, 01:34:43 PM
Bill disregard audiophools blatherings about jitter, it's not audible.  Based on logical reasoning it's not audible.  Based on double blind tests it's not audible.  If anyone tells you that they can here jitter they are either deluded or lying to you.  Do not waste lots of money hoping to get rid of something that you can't hear anyway. 

David, really wonderful automobiles can run twice, or three times as fast as you ever want to drive. Really good food has all kind of mini-componenets you don't really taste until you're told it's there. There's stuff going on in a Mahler symfony you don't really notice till someone who's read the score points it out t you. The list is endless.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on December 14, 2008, 02:00:25 PM
That $19,000 VPI looks like a bargain!

What shocked me at first with that link was that they referred to it as the TEAC VPI HR-X1, because I've always known VPI as a small, family-run company.  As far as I can tell, to my relief, TEAC is only taking care of distribution in Asia.  $19,000 is the import price for Japan.  In North America, you can get it for a (somewhat) more reasonable $12,000.  Great company with outstanding customer service.  I own one of their budget models that I bought used.  I've contacted them with questions about it and have always received prompt, helpful responses, even though they've never made a cent off me. 

http://www.vpiindustries.com/index.htm
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 17, 2008, 02:05:16 PM
David, really wonderful automobiles can run twice, or three times as fast as you ever want to drive. Really good food has all kind of mini-componenets you don't really taste until you're told it's there. There's stuff going on in a Mahler symfony you don't really notice till someone who's read the score points it out t you. The list is endless.

   Based on this reasoning you could never build a grass hut. What about all the unknown ingredients that may or may not contribute in some unknowable way to holding it up?

   It's pretty much standard procedure to assume that the unknown factors, whatever they are, don't matter. And if every test you do shows this to be the case (meaning you can see that the component performs as theory and past practice says it should) then there's nothing for an unknown factor to do. Equipment designed according to conventional engineering principles performs in exactly the same way as the audiophile stuff. The exceptions consist mostly of oddball stuff like tube amps that actually perform worse.*

    *I do admire the coolness factor of the tube gear. :D Coolness plays a large part in the audiophile belief system. So does impracticality, as a sign of commitment.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on December 17, 2008, 02:24:17 PM
   Based on this reasoning you could never build a grass hut. What about all the unknown ingredients that may or may not contribute in some unknowable way to holding it up?

   It's pretty much standard procedure to assume that the unknown factors, whatever they are, don't matter. And if every test you do shows this to be the case (meaning you can see that the component performs as theory and past practice says it should) then there's nothing for an unknown factor to do. Equipment designed according to conventional engineering principles performs in exactly the same way as the audiophile stuff. The exceptions consist mostly of oddball stuff like tube amps that actually perform worse.*

    *I do admire the coolness factor of the tube gear. :D Coolness plays a large part in the audiophile belief system. So does impracticality, as a sign of commitment.

I wasn't talking about unknown factors. In good equipment every detail has a specific function and it all adds up.

Good speaker wire works (and I'm not talking about silly hugely expensive stuff) better than nasty cheap Radio Shack wires, and it works better if you don't tie it up in knots with power cables under the shelves.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 17, 2008, 02:42:40 PM
Good speaker wire works (and I'm not talking about silly hugely expensive stuff) better than nasty cheap Radio Shack wires, and it works better if you don't tie it up in knots with power cables under the shelves.

Actually research has shown that there is no audible difference between cheap and expensive cables for the typical short runs done for home hifis.  I've actually seen it in an article from a reputable magazine.  Those "nasty cheap" 16 gauge copper wire is pretty much the industry standard anyway.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 17, 2008, 10:54:00 PM
Actually research has shown that there is no audible difference between cheap and expensive cables for the typical short runs done for home hifis.  I've actually seen it in an article from a reputable magazine.  Those "nasty cheap" 16 gauge copper wire is pretty much the industry standard anyway.

But for some reason there IS a difference in sound between certain cables. My setup is living testament to that.

However, I'm NOT a person that is happy with this!!

Luckily I've had the privilege of home audition between cable brands (interconnects and speaker cables) and I will swear on a stack of Bibles that there is a difference in performance. Yes, I said performance.

The auditions allowed me the luxury of simple A B C testing without committing to buying anything. First I auditioned three brands of speaker cables: one expensive, one mid-priced, and one low end (bargain-bin, actually). To my surprise - and relief!! - the low end cable sounded the best in my system. The others each had issues with coloration, masking sound, etc. Why would that be? I don't have a clue but it was readily audible. Needless to say the low end speaker cable now resides in my system.

Next came interconnects. Again, one expensive, one mid-priced, and one low end. But this time the audible differences led me to the expensive brand (though I bought it second-hand). The mid-priced and low end cables sounded dull. And again it was readily audible. Easily discernible.

So, what does this prove? That something is amiss somewhere because cable SHOULD just be cable. I am NOT one that subscribes to the pleasure theory of home stereo. Mine is for listening, not for showing off to my friends. In fact, I take great pride in the fact my speaker cable is bargain-bin stuff. That'll show those high-end brands! ;D


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 18, 2008, 02:14:13 PM
But for some reason there IS a difference in sound between certain cables. My setup is living testament to that.




     I agree that for some reason your system can sound different when you substitute one cable for another. I've experienced similar effects. This is an example of an unknown factor that disappears when you do a blind test.

I wasn't talking about unknown factors. In good equipment every detail has a specific function and it all adds up.

Good speaker wire works (and I'm not talking about silly hugely expensive stuff) better than nasty cheap Radio Shack wires, and it works better if you don't tie it up in knots with power cables under the shelves.

    Works better how? How are you differentiating between your reactions to what you hear and what is really going on? How do you avoid the placebo effect? Qualitative judgments are colored by expectations. When blind testing is done to remove this known factor no difference remains. If the cables meet the spec they function the same even if one is cheap and the other is expensive.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 18, 2008, 04:19:16 PM
     I agree that for some reason your system can sound different when you substitute one cable for another. I've experienced similar effects.

My system sounds much better after I dust.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 18, 2008, 05:48:59 PM
My system sounds much better after I dust.

     You dust:o

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 18, 2008, 06:38:53 PM
     You dust:o

<Looks around to see if drogulus is looking in his windows and knows what his condo really looks like.  Nope, coast is clear.>

Why of course.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2008, 06:51:17 PM
     I agree that for some reason your system can sound different when you substitute one cable for another. I've experienced similar effects. This is an example of an unknown factor that disappears when you do a blind test.

    Works better how? How are you differentiating between your reactions to what you hear and what is really going on? How do you avoid the placebo effect? Qualitative judgments are colored by expectations. When blind testing is done to remove this known factor no difference remains. If the cables meet the spec they function the same even if one is cheap and the other is expensive.

Herman seems to be talking about mixing power cables with speaker cables. As an electrician for 27 years, I am very well aware that the induced transients in a signal cable that arise from being in too close proximity to the power cables can screw up even an indelicate piece of equipment. If they can do that, they certainly can screw up an audio signal in a speaker wire. And although I am clearly in the camp of those who aren't buying lunar green cheese, I will buy this one with no problem... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to: Michael Thompson Wind Quintet - Reicha - Op 91 #6 Wind Quintet in c 1st mvmt - Marcia: Poco adagio - Allegro vivace
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 18, 2008, 10:46:08 PM
     I agree that for some reason your system can sound different when you substitute one cable for another. I've experienced similar effects. This is an example of an unknown factor that disappears when you do a blind test.

Well, I've never taken a blind test but as a flag-waving skeptic I don't need to jump through such hoops to be convinced of things. I can conduct my own tests which certainly is more in keeping with the hobby aspect of hi-fi (how often this gets forgotten).

But really you don't say that you yourself have been involved in a blind test, only that it's a sure-fire cure for the person inflicted with cable-itus. Almost as if your own ears told you one thing but reading about blind tests convinced you that you were wrong.

Not very scientific!! :D

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on December 19, 2008, 12:20:56 AM
Scientific or not, my ears are the norm, and they say regardless what other experts on the board say, that there is a huge sound difference in cables, and I invested in Nordost Valhalla, because I started with low res cable, and when I listen my way upwards, I could hear the huge sound steps, cables where implementing, and yes also in blind testing I could hear the improvements.
But there is clearly a division between those that can hear and those that can not.
That's the stuff for war with words. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on December 19, 2008, 02:18:30 AM

But there is clearly a division between those that can hear and those that can not.

I would say the division are between those that can hear the differnce when played blind under controlled conditions and pick up the difference consistently, and those who can hear the difference when they know what they listen to. Most of us belong on the second category (me too), how many belong in the first is a mainly unknown quatity, as most cable proponents for some mysterious reason aren't very eager to undergo that kind of testing.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 19, 2008, 04:53:32 AM
So, any recs here for "decent" cables that will not cost more than my entire system?  Right now I have "crapola" and would be happy to see if marginal improvements to my cables make a difference.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 19, 2008, 05:36:33 AM
So, any recs here for "decent" cables that will not cost more than my entire system?  Right now I have "crapola" and would be happy to see if marginal improvements to my cables make a difference.

What did I say before?  Snake oil!  Jeez, seriously don't go to audiophilia insanity, it will hurt you, your psyche, your family, and where it most hurts-- your wallet! ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on December 19, 2008, 07:52:47 AM

  Since all of my music has been ripped to 256 kbps AAC format I am seriously considering getting the SONOS Wireless music system.  My CD player will not change but I have to buy new speakers. For my speakers I am thinking of the Monitor label not sure which speakers just yet??  Is anyone here familiar with the SONOS system and monitor speakers?  If you are I would appreciate any advice you could give me.  Here's a link to sonos and monitor websites:

  www.sonos.com (http://www.sonos.com)
  www.monitoraudio.co.uk (http://www.monitoraudio.co.uk)
 
  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: toledobass on December 19, 2008, 09:09:56 AM
So, any recs here for "decent" cables that will not cost more than my entire system?  Right now I have "crapola" and would be happy to see if marginal improvements to my cables make a difference.

I love the Kimber Kables I have as my interconnects.  They aren't all that expensive in comparison to some of stuff out there and they look cool :P

Allan
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on December 19, 2008, 09:13:08 AM
So, any recs here for "decent" cables that will not cost more than my entire system?  Right now I have "crapola" and would be happy to see if marginal improvements to my cables make a difference.

Try the inexpensive VanderHul cables and interlinks. :)
Second hand is also a option.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on December 19, 2008, 09:15:55 AM
  Since all of my music has been ripped to 256 kbps AAC format I am seriously considering getting the SONOS Wireless music system.  My CD player will not change but I have to buy new speakers. For my speakers I am thinking of the Monitor label not sure which speakers just yet??  Is anyone here familiar with the SONOS system and monitor speakers?  If you are I would appreciate any advice you could give me.  Here's a link to sonos and monitor websites:

  www.sonos.com (http://www.sonos.com)
  www.monitoraudio.co.uk (http://www.monitoraudio.co.uk)
 
  marvin

My experience with divers Monitor Audio speakers, was always a pleasant one. Those guys are dedicated in making good speakers. See that you get a matching amplification, those speakers are very picky what they accept and what not.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 19, 2008, 02:06:54 PM
For my speakers I am thinking of the Monitor label not sure which speakers just yet?? 

I've heard Monitor speakers at a friend's house and in the shop.  I like them (very tight bass, really great for Bruckner!), but they can tend to be glassy sounding with the wrong equipment.  Here's the Stereophile review of the RS6. (http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/306monitor/)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 19, 2008, 02:40:03 PM
Well, I've never taken a blind test but as a flag-waving skeptic I don't need to jump through such hoops to be convinced of things. I can conduct my own tests which certainly is more in keeping with the hobby aspect of hi-fi (how often this gets forgotten).

But really you don't say that you yourself have been involved in a blind test, only that it's a sure-fire cure for the person inflicted with cable-itus. Almost as if your own ears told you one thing but reading about blind tests convinced you that you were wrong.

Not very scientific!! :D



    I disagree. Scientific results are not just valid for the participants. And the results do explain why these differences can so easily be made to disappear. Also, I wasn't on the 1919 expedition that confirmed the bending of light by the suns gravity, so I can't say for sure that it happened. Am I wrong to be so trusting?  :D

Herman seems to be talking about mixing power cables with speaker cables. As an electrician for 27 years, I am very well aware that the induced transients in a signal cable that arise from being in too close proximity to the power cables can screw up even an indelicate piece of equipment. If they can do that, they certainly can screw up an audio signal in a speaker wire. And although I am clearly in the camp of those who aren't buying lunar green cheese, I will buy this one with no problem... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to: Michael Thompson Wind Quintet - Reicha - Op 91 #6 Wind Quintet in c 1st mvmt - Marcia: Poco adagio - Allegro vivace

     Oh yeah?? Well......Splunge!

Scientific or not, my ears are the norm, and they say regardless what other experts on the board say, that there is a huge sound difference in cables, and I invested in Nordost Valhalla, because I started with low res cable, and when I listen my way upwards, I could hear the huge sound steps, cables where implementing, and yes also in blind testing I could hear the improvements.
But there is clearly a division between those that can hear and those that can not.
That's the stuff for war with words. ;D

    I know you can hear these differences, and I know I used to hear them and maybe still can hear them. I just don't understand how you can trust your ears when they tell you one thing and not trust them when they tell you something else. How is that trusting? I trust the results of the double blind tests as well as the placebo effect because together they explain both what is heard as well as what is not heard under a variety of conditions.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 19, 2008, 03:04:34 PM
So, any recs here for "decent" cables that will not cost more than my entire system?  Right now I have "crapola" and would be happy to see if marginal improvements to my cables make a difference.

     Do you mean your cables sound bad?

     One way I got out of this rut was by thinking seriously about the judgments I made about this kind of thing. My CD player didn't sound bad in any particular way, I was just vaguely dissatisfied and I wanted to have that really cool one that I saw in the magazine. That would certainly sound better, I thought, and the skeptics (I knew a little about them) just seemed like spoilsports. After a while I started to think about the disappearing differences and why the judgments seemed so vague. Then I began to notice the evasive argumentation of the proponents (a big point was made about the hearing of sceptics, not a wise move in the long run). Finally I did some research and over a period of several years I gradually dropped all my audio mystic beliefs.

     What color would you say this ring is?

     (http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7805/ringet8.jpg)

     Don't you trust your eyes?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 19, 2008, 04:41:27 PM
The ring looks red/pink, alright Ernie I know this must be optical illusion since you posted so what color is it really? ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 19, 2008, 05:26:22 PM
    I disagree. Scientific results are not just valid for the participants. And the results do explain why these differences can so easily be made to disappear. Also, I wasn't on the 1919 expedition that confirmed the bending of light by the suns gravity, so I can't say for sure that it happened. Am I wrong to be so trusting?  :D

We're not talking quantum mechanics, here. We're talking about something that's as do-it-yourself as it gets - home stereo.

If you must leave it to the "experts" to tell you how to run your home stereo, then you have my sympathies.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2008, 06:14:43 PM
     
     What color would you say this ring is?

     (http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7805/ringet8.jpg)

     Don't you trust your eyes?

There is no ring, per se, rather, the screen is colored and it makes a vestigial "pinkness" on the white background (which is white). So is the implication that the ears are dithering in "sound" to fill in what isn't actually there? If so, I think I can go along with that. :)

8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on December 19, 2008, 06:18:42 PM
There is no ring, per se, rather, the screen is colored and it makes a vestigial "pinkness" on the white background (which is white). So is the implication that the ears are dithering in "sound" to fill in what isn't actually there? If so, I think I can go along with that. :)

8)

Good one Gurn! :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on December 20, 2008, 02:29:09 AM
My experience with divers Monitor Audio speakers, was always a pleasant one. Those guys are dedicated in making good speakers. See that you get a matching amplification, those speakers are very picky what they accept and what not.

I've heard Monitor speakers at a friend's house and in the shop.  I like them (very tight bass, really great for Bruckner!), but they can tend to be glassy sounding with the wrong equipment.  Here's the Stereophile review of the RS6. (http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/306monitor/)

  Gentlemen thank you so much for your replies. I'll have to investigate if the amplifiers/CD players with amplifiers I have are the "right" equipment for the monitor speakers I plan to buy.   

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on December 20, 2008, 04:51:39 AM
Herman seems to be talking about mixing power cables with speaker cables. As an electrician for 27 years, I am very well aware that the induced transients in a signal cable that arise from being in too close proximity to the power cables can screw up even an indelicate piece of equipment. If they can do that, they certainly can screw up an audio signal in a speaker wire. And although I am clearly in the camp of those who aren't buying lunar green cheese, I will buy this one with no problem... :)

That was one simple aspect I was talking about. A lot of people would get much better results from even the most mundane equipment if they didn't stack the equipment and if they would keep speaker cable and power cable well apart.

I also think using good power cable, speaker cable and interconnects helps, though I'm aware "good" ranges from affordable to completely silly.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 20, 2008, 12:30:28 PM
  Gentlemen thank you so much for your replies. I'll have to investigate if the amplifiers/CD players with amplifiers I have are the "right" equipment for the monitor speakers I plan to buy.   

Will the dealer let you do a home audition?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 20, 2008, 12:46:04 PM
Will the dealer let you do a home audition?

That is the key if you truly want to test a system.  Without, it is VERY difficult to tell IMO.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 20, 2008, 12:59:38 PM
We're not talking quantum mechanics, here. We're talking about something that's as do-it-yourself as it gets - home stereo.

If you must leave it to the "experts" to tell you how to run your home stereo, then you have my sympathies.



     I don't leave it to the experts, I use their knowledge to help me understand my reactions. Why are they so vague, like the pinkish ring that isn't there? :D

    
  Gentlemen thank you so much for your replies. I'll have to investigate if the amplifiers/CD players with amplifiers I have are the "right" equipment for the monitor speakers I plan to buy.  

  marvin

    I know this sounds like I'm just peddling a line, and a minority line at that, but it really matters what your concept of investigating is. Frequently you'll be told to trust your ears, which has sort of a Frank Capra-ish "hooray for the little guy" ring to it. And we all know how much eggheads contribute to the misery of the world with their bombs....(OK, stop it!!)

    What I mean to say is that while speakers and amps sound different in ways that require you to use your ears to choose, most other components don't. If you only consult audiophile opinion you'll be encouraged to make the same mistakes they (I!) made. So get a second opinion, do a little research outside the lines and then decide. End of sermon.   8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 20, 2008, 01:04:25 PM
    I don't leave it to the experts, I use their knowledge to help me understand my reactions. Why are they so vague, like the pinkish ring that isn't there? :D


What pinkish ring?  ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 20, 2008, 02:00:57 PM


    That's the spirit!  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 20, 2008, 05:08:36 PM
     I don't leave it to the experts, I use their knowledge to help me understand my reactions.

I fail to understand why a hobby should require such rigorous psychological examination. 

Quote
Why are they so vague, like the pinkish ring that isn't there? :D

Because a ring is boring. Now, if you had said it was a donut...


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 20, 2008, 05:11:49 PM
I fail to understand why a hobby should require such rigorous psychological examination. 




     Only because it has to be fun.  :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 20, 2008, 05:20:43 PM
     Only because it has to be fun.  :D

You need outside help to make home stereo fun?


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on December 21, 2008, 02:36:39 PM
Will the dealer let you do a home audition?

  Not sure just yet I'll have to ask  ???.  I can see how that can be beneficial though.  The acoustics of the rooms should be determining factor. 



    I don't leave it to the experts, I use their knowledge to help me understand my reactions. Why are they so vague, like the pinkish ring that isn't there? :D

    
    I know this sounds like I'm just peddling a line, and a minority line at that, but it really matters what your concept of investigating is. Frequently you'll be told to trust your ears, which has sort of a Frank Capra-ish "hooray for the little guy" ring to it. And we all know how much eggheads contribute to the misery of the world with their bombs....(OK, stop it!!)

    What I mean to say is that while speakers and amps sound different in ways that require you to use your ears to choose, most other components don't. If you only consult audiophile opinion you'll be encouraged to make the same mistakes they (I!) made. So get a second opinion, do a little research outside the lines and then decide. End of sermon.   8)

   By investigating further I meant hearing the system play various genres (opera, symphonies, chamber music etc.), my porsonal taste is quite important.  But I also need some guidance, so I will be looking for advice. It's difficult for me to say at this point what it is excatly that I am looking for. Yes I am a bit lost, but as they say what better way to find yourself than to get lost!   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 22, 2008, 01:15:55 PM
You need outside help to make home stereo fun?




    Sadly, yes. I read magazines, go to websites, try to get questions answered.

    Why can't I just enjoy life like a normal person?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on December 22, 2008, 01:38:20 PM
    Sadly, yes. I read magazines, go to websites, try to get questions answered.

    Why can't I just enjoy life like a normal person?

well, with all due respect, you don't seem like a Truly Normal Person, looking at this thread.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 22, 2008, 02:14:15 PM
     
well, with all due respect, you don't seem like a Truly Normal Person, looking at this thread.

     (http://forums.mozillazine.org/images/smilies/new_Eyecrazy.gif)
     
   
There is no ring, per se, rather, the screen is colored and it makes a vestigial "pinkness" on the white background (which is white). So is the implication that the ears are dithering in "sound" to fill in what isn't actually there? If so, I think I can go along with that. :)

8)

     We don't respond directly to sensory inputs without first running them through judgmental filters that tell us how to react to them. When we try to see/hear things "as they are" something gets in the way, the judgment that we already made. If you focus on the process itself you can undo the illusion in some cases. With music this requires special tests because sounds don't persist well in memory. Because a visual illusion persists (like the ring) you can actually make your self unsee it in a way you can't easily do with music. There's a pattern to these illusions: They tend to be false positives where you see or hear things that are not there. But there are also false negatives, like change blindness (http://www.usd.edu/psyc301/ChangeBlindness.htm).

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 22, 2008, 10:14:11 PM
(http://www.sumikoaudio.net/sme/images/products/prod_model309.jpg)

I've wanted to upgrade my tonearm for some time from the Rega RB300 I've had for ages, and also get an arm with a removeable headshell to make cartridge swapping easier.  A used SME 309 finally came up for auction at Audiogon at a reasonable price (at least reasonable compared to the nearly double amount the US importer charges over the UK price.) 

No, it won't play CDs.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 23, 2008, 05:28:11 AM
(http://www.sumikoaudio.net/sme/images/products/prod_model309.jpg)

I've wanted to upgrade my tonearm for some time from the Rega RB300 I've had for ages, and also get an arm with a removeable headshell to make cartridge swapping easier.  A used SME 309 finally came up for auction at Audiogon at a reasonable price (at least reasonable compared to the nearly double amount the US importer charges over the UK price.) 

No, it won't play CDs.

Do you have the skill to replace it, or would the shop do that? 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 23, 2008, 04:43:24 PM
Do you have the skill to replace it, or would the shop do that? 

Pretty much on my own here since I bought used.  I think it would be rude to presume on the local SME dealer after bypassing him, or on my Michell dealer as he sells Moerch tonearms.  I did rewire my RB300 myself, so that sort of thing doesn't intimidate me too much, though I ended up paying a tech to solder on the cartridge clips on the hair thin wire. 

I took a look at the SME 309 manual, and it's one of the most detailed manuals I've ever seen for any kind of equipment, really outstanding.  A few things confused me, and the writing is sometimes quaint, but hopefully with the arm in my hands things will become clear.

http://www.vinylengine.com/library/sme/309.shtml

(You have to register to download the manual.)

I do have to remove the old Rega armboard on the Michell and install a new SME one, something I've never done.  I'll have to see if I have the right tools for that.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on December 24, 2008, 11:59:47 AM
Pretty much on my own here since I bought used.  I think it would be rude to presume on the local SME dealer after bypassing him, or on my Michell dealer as he sells Moerch tonearms.  I did rewire my RB300 myself, so that sort of thing doesn't intimidate me too much, though I ended up paying a tech to solder on the cartridge clips on the hair thin wire. 

If you're at all in doubt, don't hesitate to ask your local dealer.  To my mind, anyone dealing with analogue these days is at least partly in it for the love of it, not just the business, so they might not mind you asking.  My local dealer has never hesitated to do any work asked, often for free, even though I offer to pay.  But is sounds like you've got some experience.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 24, 2008, 01:19:47 PM


    What I'm planning on getting (the currant fantasy, that is) is a new receiver. I want to hook it up to the cable box and from there to a new PC monitor which will also be a TV/movie display. So I will have an HDMI connection from the cable to the receiver and another to the TV/monitor. The receiver will handle audio for everything: TV, DVD/BD player, and all computer functions including music, games etc.

    My one requirement beyond the necessity for HDMI is that the receiver be fairly shallow to fit on my desk shelf next to the computer. Right now I'm looking at the SONY STR-DG820:

     (http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/products/2008/158/h158STDG820-f.jpeg)

     This isn't what I'd get if I didn't have space restrictions. It doesn't have pre-outs, which I'd really like. It will do the job in a small room, though.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 24, 2008, 07:17:44 PM
  So I will have an HDMI connection

I don't see a DSD logo.  Odd, since Sony were the ones pushing SACD and DSD originally.

The UPS guy brought 4 of these today:

(http://i6.ebayimg.com/07/i/001/08/08/a5fb_2.JPG)

RCA 6SN7 GT tubes for my pre-amp.

Also recently I've been thinking about getting more into do-it-yourself projects, so I ordered the PCB and parts for this little guy:

(http://www.hagtech.com/images/bugle.jpg)

The Hagermann Bugle phono pre-amp (it uses op amps).  This is just warm up for the Piccolo head amp kit.  He has kits for a line stage, a tube phono pre-amp, a tube headphone amp, and several other things.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 24, 2008, 07:56:52 PM
I don't see a DSD logo.  Odd, since Sony were the ones pushing SACD and DSD originally.

The UPS guy brought 4 of these today:

(http://i6.ebayimg.com/07/i/001/08/08/a5fb_2.JPG)

RCA 6SN7 GT tubes for my pre-amp.

Also recently I've been thinking about getting more into do-it-yourself projects, so I ordered the PCB and parts for this little guy:

(http://www.hagtech.com/images/bugle.jpg)

The Hagermann Bugle phono pre-amp (it uses op amps).  This is just warm up for the Piccolo head amp kit.  He has kits for a line stage, a tube phono pre-amp, a tube headphone amp, and several other things.



I cannot follow all of this, but my gut is good at telling me when something is stinkin' cool and this is one of those times.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 24, 2008, 09:42:35 PM
I cannot follow all of this, but my gut is good at telling me when something is stinkin' cool and this is one of those times.

If you're talking about tubes, yeah I know next to nothing about them, either.  It is a little intimidating.  I got these from my pre-amp maker, Rogue Audio (I called and talked to one of the owners.)  They selected the tubes and tested them for me.

For the do-it-yourself stuff, even though I have a degree in Physics, I've forgotten much of the electronics I learned, and I never really developed a feel for circuits.  I'd like to get more hands on with it.  I'm really impressed with what some of the DIY guys are doing.  One of the projects that intrigues me is hooking up an SACD player directly to a high-end DAC like this one (http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/buffalo.aspx).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 25, 2008, 01:38:58 PM
I don't see a DSD logo.  Odd, since Sony were the ones pushing SACD and DSD originally.




     I don't think anyone makes an inexpensive receiver with DSD decoding. Since any player I get would resample to PCM for bass managment (or the receiver would if it had that ability) I don't see a problem.

If you're talking about tubes, yeah I know next to nothing about them, either.  It is a little intimidating.  I got these from my pre-amp maker, Rogue Audio (I called and talked to one of the owners.)  They selected the tubes and tested them for me.

For the do-it-yourself stuff, even though I have a degree in Physics, I've forgotten much of the electronics I learned, and I never really developed a feel for circuits.  I'd like to get more hands on with it.  I'm really impressed with what some of the DIY guys are doing.  One of the projects that intrigues me is hooking up an SACD player directly to a high-end DAC like this one (http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/buffalo.aspx).


     There's a boutique guitar/bass amp that uses these octals instead of 12ax7's.

     Alessandro Amp

     (http://www.alessandro-products.com/Images/kowwgoldb_web.jpg) (http://www.alessandro-products.com/Images/RBSinMaplecabb.jpg)

     These amps are supposed to be good, and the basic models without the frills are not that much more than vintage reissues from Marshall/Fender etc. You can see a 6SL7 peeking out from between the power tubes (6550's).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on December 27, 2008, 05:11:47 AM
   

     There's a boutique guitar/bass amp that uses these octals instead of 12ax7's.

     Alessandro Amp

     

Certainly a thing of beauty.  However, I recall having an internet exchange with a well-known jazz guitarist who used to endorse these amps, and he said he gave them up because of their unreliability.  (Admittedly, it doesn't look like the kind of thing that was meant to be taken out on the road.)

The Hagermann Bugle phono pre-amp (it uses op amps).  This is just warm up for the Piccolo head amp kit.  He has kits for a line stage, a tube phono pre-amp, a tube headphone amp, and several other things.

I've built his Cornet phono pre kit, and highly recommend it.  Unbeatable performance/dollar ratio (once you omit the "sweat equity" factor of building it yourself) and pretty much idiot-proof in construction (has to be, since this idiot managed to build it!).  Some acquaintances of mine have the Bugle and praise it highly.  Good choice!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 27, 2008, 05:11:39 PM

      There's this guy in Sturbridge, MA who works on old tube equipment, and he'll also assemble an amp kit for you. Here's one:

     (http://lh5.ggpht.com/_sl51_VYV6Jo/R4px8qys-7I/AAAAAAAAGy4/Hf9z_N6KVeQ/s720/DSCF1304v01.jpg)

      It's a Dynaco ST-70 power amp (2x35 wpc). The kit plus assembly is $845. The kit alone is $695 so the guy is not making a fortune for his work. With a couple of high sensitivity speakers you could get a huge sound out of this.

     He also works on these old radios, some of which are really beautiful.

     (http://radioattic.com/images/bartells/Bartells_Zenith_5-S-319_(1939).jpg) (http://radioattic.com/images/park/Park_Airline_62-217_(1935).jpg) (http://radioattic.com/images/park/Park_Emerson_K-121_(1936).jpg) (http://radioattic.com/images/latino/Latino_Radio-Matic_YRB-12-4_(1947).jpg)


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 27, 2008, 05:25:36 PM
Certainly a thing of beauty.  However, I recall having an internet exchange with a well-known jazz guitarist who used to endorse these amps, and he said he gave them up because of their unreliability.  (Admittedly, it doesn't look like the kind of thing that was meant to be taken out on the road.)

Yeah, I'm already having a problem with these RCAs.  After about a minute after turning the pre-amp on for the first time, i get a loud pop through the speakers.  I haven't tried putting back my Sylvania "chrome domes".  I'll have to call Rogue on Monday.  So, yeah, definitely less reliable than solid state.

These RCA tubes are pretty fantastic in the "presence" region, but don't have the silkiness and midrange purity of the Sylvanias.

Quote
I've built his Cornet phono pre kit, and highly recommend it.  Unbeatable performance/dollar ratio (once you omit the "sweat equity" factor of building it yourself) and pretty much idiot-proof in construction (has to be, since this idiot managed to build it!).  Some acquaintances of mine have the Bugle and praise it highly.  Good choice!

I tried out a pre-built Cornet2 for about a month and did some tube rolling.  I never got it to where I was all that happy with the sound, particularly the soundstage,  and ended up with a Rogue Stealth (which uses opamps).  I didn't try any NOS 12ax7s, though.  The Rogue 99 pre-amp's phono stage has 4 Mullard 12ax7s and sounds great.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 27, 2008, 09:58:51 PM
      There's this guy in Sturbridge, MA who works on old tube equipment, and he'll also assemble an amp kit for you. Here's one:

     (http://lh5.ggpht.com/_sl51_VYV6Jo/R4px8qys-7I/AAAAAAAAGy4/Hf9z_N6KVeQ/s720/DSCF1304v01.jpg)

      It's a Dynaco ST-70 power amp (2x35 wpc). The kit plus assembly is $845. The kit alone is $695 so the guy is not making a fortune for his work. With a couple of high sensitivity speakers you could get a huge sound out of this.

     He also works on these old radios, some of which are really beautiful.

     (http://radioattic.com/images/bartells/Bartells_Zenith_5-S-319_(1939).jpg) (http://radioattic.com/images/park/Park_Airline_62-217_(1935).jpg) (http://radioattic.com/images/park/Park_Emerson_K-121_(1936).jpg) (http://radioattic.com/images/latino/Latino_Radio-Matic_YRB-12-4_(1947).jpg)




My dad restores old radios as well.  I will have to post a photo of the one he did for me.  Neat stuff for sure.  I believe he gets all his replacement parts from here:

http://www.tubesandmore.com/
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 27, 2008, 11:33:30 PM
Unfortunately, when you turn those old radios on you get Rush Limbaugh and not Fibber McGee and Molley.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 28, 2008, 07:16:29 AM
Unfortunately, when you turn those old radios on you get Rush Limbaugh and not Fibber McGee and Molley.

Still great for baseball games though.... ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 31, 2008, 12:36:07 PM
Well, finally got my dad's old floor speakers up and running in my workroom.  They sound tremendous and weigh more than me after a Christmas meal.  Here is the system I am running.

Realistic STA-2100 amp/receiver
Sansui 3000 Floor Speakers
Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 Bookshelf Speakers
Pro-Ject III Turntable
Optimus 1760 CD Player-needs to be upgraded


His Pioneer Amp/Receiver 9000 seems to not be working, so stuck with the Realistic.  However, he and I are going to keep an eye out for them and see if we can piece a decent one together.

I have all four speakers ready to run.  Anything wrong with running all four at once?  The Wharfields are about 8 feet off the ground with the Sansui's obviously on the floor.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 31, 2008, 03:12:08 PM

I have all four speakers ready to run.  Anything wrong with running all four at once?  The Wharfields are about 8 feet off the ground with the Sansui's obviously on the floor.


     Is it running yet? What are you trying to do with the extra pair? If what you want is the best sound you could run the Diamonds with a sub connected to the receiver's speaker terminals. Or if you like the sound of the Sansui's just run them alone.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 31, 2008, 03:20:49 PM
     Is it running yet? What are you trying to do with the extra pair? If what you want is the best sound you could run the Diamonds with a sub connected to the receiver's speaker terminals. Or if you like the sound of the Sansui's just run them alone.

I have the Sansuis on the B and the Diamonds on the A channel.  They sound the best when both are going.  However, what is a sub connection? 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on December 31, 2008, 04:02:15 PM
Is it possible that I am getting such good sound with all 4 because the 2 Diamonds are taking care of some of the higher range sound that the Sansui's might not be able to deliver as well?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: karlhenning on December 31, 2008, 04:14:53 PM
A sub-woofer?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on December 31, 2008, 05:05:17 PM
A sub-woofer?

(http://static1.firedoglake.com/29/files//2008/12/babyfenway.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 31, 2008, 06:08:18 PM


   
Is it possible that I am getting such good sound with all 4 because the 2 Diamonds are taking care of some of the higher range sound that the Sansui's might not be able to deliver as well?

    Yes, they could be canceling each other weaknesses. It doesn't sound like a very transparent system, though.

However, what is a sub connection? 

    A sub connected to the speaker terminals. These old receivers don't have sub outs because subs didn't exist in home stereos back then. These days subs can be connected in different ways so you can use them with older amps. This one has

     (http://www.svsound.com/products/subs/pb12nsd/lg9.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on January 01, 2009, 12:18:10 AM

   
    Yes, they could be canceling each other weaknesses. It doesn't sound like a very transparent system, though.

    A sub connected to the speaker terminals. These old receivers don't have sub outs because subs didn't exist in home stereos back then. These days subs can be connected in different ways so you can use them with older amps. This one has

     (http://www.svsound.com/products/subs/pb12nsd/lg9.jpg)

Explain transparency a bit if you do not mind.  Is it just being able to hear the music "how it is"?  My Brubeck album sounded better than anything I have ever played on a system.  However, some of the vinyl I put on was not that good.  Depended on the label/recording.  I guess vinyl does not differ from cds in this category....some great, others not.  However, my Diamonds were negligible when playing symphonic music.  That is, you were hard pressed to tell the difference if they were on or not.  Interesting.  As stated, for most of the jazz, all four speakers really took it to a nice level of sound.  It would seem that one could play around a bit with the tuning knobs on each recording to achieve maximum quality as well.  In any case, fun stuff to mess with. 

Also, what do these sub connectors actually do?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on January 01, 2009, 09:02:00 AM
Optimus 1760 CD Player-needs to be upgraded

Optimus cd players are not bad.  I used to have one.  Radioshack sold them, but they are identical to pricier Pioneer models in every way.  It's as if they simply chiseled the Pioneer name out and put Optimus in it's place! ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on January 01, 2009, 09:16:02 AM
Optimus cd players are not bad.  I used to have one.  Radioshack sold them, but they are identical to pricier Pioneer models in every way.  It's as if they simply chiseled the Pioneer name out and put Optimus in it's place! ;D

Very good to know David, and Happy New Year.  Mine just acts up from time to time and will not read the disc I loaded and gives me a "NO DISC" message.  Working fine right now, but cannot use with confidence ......and it takes 20-30 loadings before it catches the disc properly. 

(http://www.vgevo.com/forums/images/smilies/characters/homersimpson.gif) Now I wonder if it has something to do with the cheapo cables I have hitched to the back of it.












(http://www.vgevo.com/forums/images/smilies/party/pile.gif)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 01, 2009, 02:12:56 PM
Explain transparency a bit if you do not mind.  Is it just being able to hear the music "how it is"?  My Brubeck album sounded better than anything I have ever played on a system.  However, some of the vinyl I put on was not that good.  Depended on the label/recording.  I guess vinyl does not differ from cds in this category....some great, others not.  However, my Diamonds were negligible when playing symphonic music.  That is, you were hard pressed to tell the difference if they were on or not.  Interesting.  As stated, for most of the jazz, all four speakers really took it to a nice level of sound.  It would seem that one could play around a bit with the tuning knobs on each recording to achieve maximum quality as well.  In any case, fun stuff to mess with. 

Also, what do these sub connectors actually do?

    Transparency just means the speaker doesn't color the sound to a noticeable extent. This way your recordings will all sound like they were intended to. Some colorations may make certain recordings sound better and others worse. The ideal is a flat midrange. Depending on your room and speaker placement you might want to move the treble and bass up or down a bit to a point where all your music sounds good. Modern digital receivers have automated room correction systems that do this for you. I don't use them, and I run the system flat.

    The sub connects to modern receivers through a dedicated sub output that sends all the bass to the sub while rolling of the lowest frequencies to the main speakers.

     (http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7549/x158stdg520byr0.jpg)

     You can select the crossover frequency on the receiver (usually 80 hz is best). If you don't have a receiver like this you can use the speaker terminals or the monitor out. I would use the speaker terminals. If you have a separate preamp you can split the signal between the sub and the power amp. With some subs you have both speaker ins and outs so you connect the main speakers (R+L) to the sub instead of the amp and the sub does the crossover. In the picture below the sub has these connections.

     (http://www.svsound.com/products/subs/pb12nsd/lg9.jpg)

Quote
Now I wonder if it has something to do with the cheapo cables I have hitched to the back of it.
     
      >:D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on January 01, 2009, 02:27:32 PM
Is this recommended even if the larger floor speakers have a sub component?

Here is a shot from the web of the speakers, but not mine:

(http://www.sansui.us/images/Speakers/SP_4Digits/SP3000_1.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 01, 2009, 03:02:13 PM


     No, those speakers don't need a subwoofer. :D

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on January 01, 2009, 04:24:32 PM

     No, those speakers don't need a subwoofer. :D

     

Yes, my Sansui's have plenty of ooomph.  So, now that I do not need a sub, let me pick your (and others') brains on other avenues to continue improving sound.
 
However, I believe one of my biggest challenges is the room itself.  Pretty much concrete.  14 ft by 14 ft.  Only about 4ft. spread between the floor speakers and 6ft. between the Diamonds.  My dad suggested some throw rugs along with a screen at the opposite side of the room made of fabric to cut down on the sound bouncing around.  Any other suggestions?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 01, 2009, 05:52:14 PM
Yes, my Sansui's have plenty of ooomph.  So, now that I do not need a sub, let me pick your (and others') brains on other avenues to continue improving sound.
 
However, I believe one of my biggest challenges is the room itself.  Pretty much concrete.  14 ft by 14 ft.  Only about 4ft. spread between the floor speakers and 6ft. between the Diamonds.  My dad suggested some throw rugs along with a screen at the opposite side of the room made of fabric to cut down on the sound bouncing around.  Any other suggestions?

     Cutting down on reflections is good. Also try moving the big speakers around until the balance sounds right to you. They might sound a bit boomy if they are too close to the back wall. Once you have the balance zeroed in you won't need the other pair of speakers. If you do need them there might be something wrong with one or more of the drivers in the Sansui's. I would want to run both sets separately to see exactly what each pair is doing.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on January 01, 2009, 06:01:46 PM
     Cutting down on reflections is good. Also try moving the big speakers around until the balance sounds right to you. They might sound a bit boomy if they are too close to the back wall. Once you have the balance zeroed in you won't need the other pair of speakers. If you do need them there might be something wrong with one or more of the drivers in the Sansui's. I would want to run both sets separately to see exactly what each pair is doing.

Already had them away from the wall.  Will do some testing with some cds per your suggestion.  That might be an easier medium to calibrate with.  There are some adjustments on the back of the speakers

last picture in top row...I have mine on "natural".  Any thoughts here?

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5847401

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 01, 2009, 06:02:32 PM
Yes, my Sansui's have plenty of ooomph.  So, now that I do not need a sub, let me pick your (and others') brains on other avenues to continue improving sound.
 
However, I believe one of my biggest challenges is the room itself.  Pretty much concrete.  14 ft by 14 ft.  Only about 4ft. spread between the floor speakers and 6ft. between the Diamonds.  My dad suggested some throw rugs along with a screen at the opposite side of the room made of fabric to cut down on the sound bouncing around.  Any other suggestions?

How high  is the ceiling?  You're going to have some low frequency room modes in  a square room like that.  See these room mode calculators:

http://www.mcsquared.com/metricmodes.htm
http://www.marktaw.com/recording/Acoustics/RoomModeStandingWaveCalcu.html

Interesting discussion here:

http://www.realtraps.com/art_tuning.htm

though those guys are selling a product, so take it with a grain of salt.


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 01, 2009, 06:09:10 PM
Already had them away from the wall.  Will do some testing with some cds per your suggestion.  That might be an easier medium to calibrate with.  There are some adjustments on the back of the speakers

last picture in top row...I have mine on "natural".  Any thoughts here?

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5847401



     That might be the flat setting, if, that is, there is one. The goal should be to find a setting that works for different kinds of music.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on January 01, 2009, 06:28:21 PM
     That might be the flat setting, if, that is, there is one. The goal should be to find a setting that works for different kinds of music.

Right.  I just sampled Miss You by the Stones.  Without the Diamonds, could not tell the difference.  Sounded AWESOME!  Now, with REM Fall on Me the Diamonds add a nice touch.  This is so freakin fun I cannot tell you. 

Oh, should I put my floor speakers on top of anything?  Bricks, wood, carpet....?

Daverz,
You an MIT grad?  Dang man.  I will have to read over the sites a bit more slowly and get back with you.  Thanks for the links.  I am continuing to learn. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 02, 2009, 07:17:48 AM
Explain transparency a bit if you do not mind.

A transparent audio chain has an impulse response that is very impulse-like. Impulse response is simply the response to impulse (very short strong pulse). Below is an example of an actual impulse responce of a loudspeaker:

(http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/9426/impulseresponseqx1.th.png) (http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?image=impulseresponseqx1.png) Click the thumbnail for bigger picture

If amplifier sends a very short (positive) strong pulse to this loudspeaker, this is what comes out (2.5 m from the loudspeaker on tweeter axis). We see that not only is there a large pulse up (positive) but also almost as strong negative dip. the response oscillates for a while before dying out. Why does a sharp positive pulse turn into this kind of mess? It's because the frequence responses of loudspeakers aren't totally flat. Also, the lowest frequencies are strongly attenuated. Frequencies are delayed differently; lower frequencies take more time "to come out." These are some of the reasons why transparency isn't 100 %. It's up to our ears if this is transparent enough.

This impulse response was measured (by me and my friend using MLSSA) in an anechoic chamber. A normal listening room acoustics will dramatically lower the degree of transparency.

Impulse response describes completely the behavior of a linear system.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 02, 2009, 11:59:37 AM
Another way of looking it, Bill, is that the frequency spectrum of an impulse signal is very wide. If your system's frequency response is perfect you will recover every one of those frequency contents at the output. But nothing is ideal. These different frequencies will have different propagation delays (travel at different velocies if you will) down a cable AND the speakers will have different gains and phase shifts as a function of frequency.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 02, 2009, 01:52:32 PM
You could of course have a "perfect" frequency response and still have a far from perfect impulse response. A "perfect" impulse response yields a a "perfect" frequency response.

If I had room for it I'd have 5 channels for the same reasons as 71dB, but we have chosen to have music in the main living room and TV elsewhere.

My stereo is somewhat uncommon.
The main speakers use two SEAS Excel 5" Al-Mg midbass drivers with neodynium magnets and one Mundorf AMT (Heil principle) tweeter in MTM configuration. They are driven by an amplifier based on the B&O ICEpower125ASX class D 2x60W into 8 ohm module. A 2nd order passive filter roll them off from ~120Hz.
The subwoofers each use two Beyma 12" drivers in ELF tuning, i.e. they operate below the cabinet tuning frequency. Amps are again ICEpower, this time one 500ASP per side. Bass crossover and EQ is handled by the Behringer DCX2496 (second mention in this thread). This whole condondrum is called tangenAVdesign System.
The control center is the ingenious Logitech Slimdevices Transporter. Most of my music is FLAC now, the ripped CDs are stored away. The Transporter of course plays internet radio too.
I also have a collection of LPs that I play on an old SOTA Sapphire with a Well Tempered Classic tone arm. RIAA is a SAT Phonofix, and the signal is then digitized by a RME ADI-2 and fed to the Transporter by optical SPDIF.
An old CD-player is also connected to the Transporter. Visitors sometimes bring their own music.

(http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23462.0;attach=33509;image)
The funny thing on the ceiling is an acoustic absorber. I'm a nearfielder, as you may see. The listening chair is not always placed in the listening position.


I am planning other Slimdevices-boxes in other parts of the house. Bedroom, kids rooms etc. All users accessing the same server but picking their music or web streams of choice. For the main system I'm planning a convolver to get the "perfect" impulse response. The transporter supports an effect loop. Smart box, did I mention that?
 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 02, 2009, 07:34:05 PM
The main speakers use two SEAS Excel 5" Al-Mg midbass drivers with neodynium magnets and one Mundorf AMT (Heil principle) tweeter in MTM configuration. They are driven by an amplifier based on the B&O ICEpower125ASX class D 2x60W into 8 ohm module. A 2nd order passive filter roll them off from ~120Hz.
The subwoofers each use two Beyma 12" drivers in ELF tuning, i.e. they operate below the cabinet tuning frequency. Amps are again ICEpower, this time one 500ASP per side. Bass crossover and EQ is handled by the Behringer DCX2496 (second mention in this thread). This whole condondrum is called tangenAVdesign System.

Is this something you put together yourself from pre-existing plans?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on January 02, 2009, 07:42:47 PM
The control center is the ingenious Logitech Slimdevices Transporter. Most of my music is FLAC now, the ripped CDs are stored away. The Transporter of course plays internet radio too.
I also have a collection of LPs that I play on an old SOTA Sapphire with a Well Tempered Classic tone arm. RIAA is a SAT Phonofix, and the signal is then digitized by a RME ADI-2 and fed to the Transporter by optical SPDIF.

How does this effect the analogue (which is obviously no longer analogue) sound when playing lps?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on January 02, 2009, 07:51:15 PM
How does this effect the analogue (which is obviously no longer analogue) sound when playing lps?

In my current NHT Xd system, everything goes through additional analog->digital and digital signal processing steps.  The result to my ears seems completely transparent, though there isn't a way to listen without the processing.   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on January 02, 2009, 07:52:25 PM
In my current NHT Xd system, everything goes through additional analog->digital and digital signal processing steps.  The result to my ears seems completely transparent, though there isn't a way to listen without the processing.   

So, no change from what you can detect.  That is cool!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on January 02, 2009, 07:54:35 PM
Sorry to throw this one out again, but should I raise my floor speakers up off the floor a bit?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 03, 2009, 12:26:59 AM
Is this something you put together yourself from pre-existing plans?
It's a commercially available system, but in very small series and only in Norway.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 03, 2009, 01:06:48 AM
How does this effect the analogue (which is obviously no longer analogue) sound when playing lps?
It may not be completely transparent, Bogey, but a better performing AD-converter costs more than I'm willing to pay. And in an A/B test I might not notice a difference, so...
Anyway: It sounds like LPs. I sample at 24 bit 96kHz btw.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Que on January 03, 2009, 03:40:59 AM
Sorry to throw this one out again, but should I raise my floor speakers up off the floor a bit?

If you'd want to avoid extra resonance by a wooden floor, yes.
Put it on something non-resonant like special spikes, but ordinary brick works as well. :)

Q
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on January 03, 2009, 06:19:59 AM
Sorry to throw this one out again, but should I raise my floor speakers up off the floor a bit?

What speakers do you have? Floor speakers are (or at least should be) designed so that you don't need to raise them. Usually tweeter is supposed to be on the same level as your ears when you sit down to listen.

What do you want to gain by raising the speakers? Avoid reflection? What is wrong with the sound?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 03, 2009, 03:07:34 PM
Sorry to throw this one out again, but should I raise my floor speakers up off the floor a bit?

     Try it and see. These aren't actually tower speakers and they might open up a bit raised off the floor. Do they sound bass heavy to you? I look at that 15" woofer and wonder. It's possible though that they are balanced for floor placement and mounting them off the floor will make things worse.

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on January 03, 2009, 06:10:38 PM
What speakers do you have? Floor speakers are (or at least should be) designed so that you don't need to raise them. Usually tweeter is supposed to be on the same level as your ears when you sit down to listen.

What do you want to gain by raising the speakers? Avoid reflection? What is wrong with the sound?

     Try it and see. These aren't actually tower speakers and they might open up a bit raised off the floor. Do they sound bass heavy to you? I look at that 15" woofer and wonder. It's possible though that they are balanced for floor placement and mounting them off the floor will make things worse.

     

Good points.  Thanks!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on February 04, 2009, 03:16:59 AM
The latest in audiophile accessories, from a new company obviously on the cutting edge of technology.  Every one a bargain.

http://www.nathanmarciniak.com/elemental/
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on February 04, 2009, 04:42:53 AM
Guy must have a lot of time on his hands.

I can't believe someone would go to the truble of creating a website for a bunch of lame jokes.

Also, 71dB would take offense these aids are not for the multi channel world.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on February 04, 2009, 06:42:09 AM
Nah, Poju already has a Müsicøné set up for every channel in his multi-channel system.  When tuned properly they're indispensable for enhancing vibrational fields.  Plus, if you cover one with tin foil and wear it like a hat, it will make you smart enough to understand how Elgar's multi-dimensional vibrational fields make his music superior to anyone else's--especially that overrated hack, Beethoven.  Note, however, that for the tin foil hat trick to work, you must first put it on and stand in an open field during a thunderstorm until the finger of God Ex Nihilo anoints you as the chosen one.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 06:37:49 PM
My last post was unsuccessful ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 06:38:52 PM
My last post was unsuccessful ...

Bill,    Here are my open-reel decks.  The smallest one (i.e. the one with the small reels) was the one that originally recorded the Christopher Hogwood's All Bach Program at the Library of Congress off the air back in the mid 80's.  I also digitized that tape via Audacity and played it yesterday on my desktop.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on February 16, 2009, 06:52:32 PM
Bill,    Here are my open-reel decks.  The smallest one (i.e. the one with the small reels) was the one that originally recorded the Christopher Hogwood's All Bach Program at the Library of Congress off the air back in the mid 80's.  I also digitized that tape via Audacity and played it yesterday on my desktop.



Thanks Stuart!  Very cool.  I just love stereo equipment that weighs as much as a new 'fridge. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 07:14:37 PM
Thanks Stuart!  Very cool.  I just love stereo equipment that weighs as much as a new 'fridge. 

Bill,  I do not like most feather-weight equipments which are so commonplace today.  I just cannot see how a sub-10 lbs CD/DVD player, almost always Chinese-made, can provide good isolation when the drive is spinning so fast.  But people get what they paid for, what can I say?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on February 17, 2009, 12:37:24 AM
An uncle of mine had a Tandberg TD20A like that. A battleship. Tape costs at 7 1/2 ips was the same as the cost of an original LP...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on February 17, 2009, 05:21:04 AM
An uncle of mine had a Tandberg TD20A like that. A battleship. Tape costs at 7 1/2 ips was the same as the cost of an original LP...

LOL....classic description!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 17, 2009, 07:39:37 AM
(http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=10513&c=ACCT106601&h=2e831d5b2c0e8a0d897b)

Yet another phono cartridge to add to the collection, this one a trade-in on a broken Dynavector 10x5.  The Dynavector 20x is a popular one.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on February 17, 2009, 08:25:28 AM
(http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=10513&c=ACCT106601&h=2e831d5b2c0e8a0d897b)

Yet another phono cartridge to add to the collection, this one a trade-in on a broken Dynavector 10x5.  The Dynavector 20x is a popular one.
How does the sound compare to the 10x5, and can you describe your system to provide a context for your impressions, please?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: nut-job on February 17, 2009, 08:36:47 AM
Bill,  I do not like most feather-weight equipments which are so commonplace today.  I just cannot see how a sub-10 lbs CD/DVD player, almost always Chinese-made, can provide good isolation when the drive is spinning so fast.  But people get what they paid for, what can I say?

There is no need for mechanical isolation, if that is what you mean.  A $30 CD drive that weighs a few ounces, sitting in your computer can read data off a compact disc 32 times faster than your CD player does with absolutely no errors.  A good audio CD player is expensive because it has a decent power supply and because the digital-to-analog converter and subsequent analog components utilize high quality components.  The power supply tends to add some weight, but the good circuitry doesn't have to.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 17, 2009, 08:44:05 AM
How does the sound compare to the 10x5, and can you describe your system to provide a context for your impressions, please?

I just ordered it.  I'll report as soon as I get it.  It does have a micro-ridge stylus and is the low output version, while the 10x5 is elliptical and only comes in a hight output version.  My system is described here:

http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/8291.html

I really like the AT33PTG cartridge I'm using now, and it's an incredible bargain.  But I'd like to see if I can get a little more warmth and midrange presence (and I had that broken 10x5 sitting in the closet, so...).  Other cartridges I suppose I could have tried in that price range or lower are the Denon 103 (I think I'd have to add some mass to the headshell for that one, and you better have lots of clean gain for its flea output), or one of the Ortofon 2M color series of moving magnet cartridges (I haven't had much luck with moving magnets, though).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on February 17, 2009, 09:24:45 AM
 8)  Although I liked some of the characteristics of the modest Grado Platinum MM I was using, I got tired of the low level hum in my system.  I found a deal on the improved 10x5 that I couldn't pass up and have been content--but have been curious about what improvement the 20x might offer.  I'm not about to pursue the nth degree of audio nirvana by chasing tinier and tinier incremental improvements at greater and greater expense.  I'm more of a bang-for-the-buck sort of guy--of course, the marginal tipping point differs from person to person...and with my disposable income as well!

As for the Denon--I considered the Zu upgrade for only $100 or so more, but passed mainly because I didn't want to spring for a transformer, too!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 17, 2009, 10:05:23 AM
8)  Although I liked some of the characteristics of the modest Grado Platinum MM I was using, I got tired of the low level hum in my system. 

Hum from the turntable motor? 

Quote
I found a deal on the improved 10x5 that I couldn't pass up and have been content--but have been curious about what improvement the 20x might offer.  I'm not about to pursue the nth degree of audio nirvana by chasing tinier and tinier incremental improvements at greater and greater expense.  I'm more of a bang-for-the-buck sort of guy--of course, the marginal tipping point differs from person to person...and with my disposable income as well!

As for the Denon--I considered the Zu upgrade for only $100 or so more, but passed mainly because I didn't want to spring for a transformer, too!

Note that the output of the 20x low output version is, at .3mV, not much more than the .25mV output of the Denon, so unless you have the gain for it, you'd probably want to go for the high output version, which will have a different sound than the low output version.  There's also a medium output (1mV) version of the DV20x made specially for VPI. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 20, 2009, 08:32:58 PM
An uncle of mine had a Tandberg TD20A like that. A battleship. Tape costs at 7 1/2 ips was the same as the cost of an original LP...

I showed photo of my TD20A in a post from a few days ago ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on February 21, 2009, 12:25:31 AM
That was the photo I was referring to, Coopmv.
It's great that enthusiasts like yourself keep and use these magnificent machines. These days there are more effective ways of storing music, but that doesn't matter.
My uncle sold his TD20A. Too many maintenance hours for him. He transferred all his radio recordings to hard disk first.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 05:38:46 AM
That was the photo I was referring to, Coopmv.
It's great that enthusiasts like yourself keep and use these magnificent machines. These days there are more effective ways of storing music, but that doesn't matter.
My uncle sold his TD20A. Too many maintenance hours for him. He transferred all his radio recordings to hard disk first.

Open-reel decks are generally quite durable.  The problems these days are the space (10.5" reels are large) and it is a very expensive media due to limited production if you can even find them.  However, to get equivalent sound, you will need gigabytpes on your hard-drive.  I digitized a live concert of Christopher Hogwood and the AAM from an open-reel tape a few months ago, it took up about 1.4 GB of my hard-drive.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on February 21, 2009, 07:10:13 AM
Hum from the turntable motor? 
I imagine so.  Grados are unshielded and the issue is common with certain turntables.  Mine is a modest VPI HW19 Jr.  The hum is not noticeable except during nearly silent passages when the volume is cranked up (though not necessarily to 11 ;) ) and the cartridge is tracking near the spindle.  I really didn't need to change, since otherwise I was reasonably satisfied with the sound of the cartridge: more musical than clinical and with a rich, effortless midrange, though perhaps a bit soft on top--but since my hearing stops at 16KHz, that's not much of an issue for me.  ;D 

Some of the would-be rocket scientists around here whose apprehension of reality is so severely handicapped by intellectualism that they deny the existence of phenomena unexplained by their pet theories will probably jump in to claim that all phono cartridges sound alike since they're just electromagnetic transducers with no meaningful differences other than the output voltage of their electrical signals blah blah blah....  I really like the one who used to claim that Beethoven is an overrated mediocrity but Elgar is supreme due to the complexity of his music's vibrational fields, and who claimed to know everything about audio since he's an engineer, but also claimed that he can't hear significant differences among different recordings of the same piece since they're all playing the same music. 

When guys like that trot out the "Expert badge" I'm usually reminded of Duck's Breath Mystery Theatre's "Dr. Science" (http://www.drscience.com/rafiles/InternalHairFactory.mp3).  Good old Dr. Science:  He knows more than we do.  He has a master's degree...in Science!.  If only those poor souls weren't so deluded by arrogance that they believe their limited understanding and experience are definitive and constitute the sum of all possible knowledge.  It makes it so hard for them to learn anything.  Sigh.  At least we can learn from them, however, since their handicap--though extreme--is a common human failing that we are all subject to.  When they flaunt it we're reminded of the virtue of humility, of practicing awareness that we know very little and that the moment we think we know it all our minds spring shut, preventing us from learning anything and condemning us to everlasting ignorance.  Who was it said that an educated person is one who knows how little he knows?



Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 07:34:22 AM
I imagine so.  Grados are unshielded and the issue is common with certain turntables.  Mine is a modest VPI HW19 Jr.  The hum is not noticeable except during nearly silent passages when the volume is cranked up (though not necessarily to 11 ;) ) and the cartridge is tracking near the spindle.  I really didn't need to change, since otherwise I was reasonably satisfied with the sound of the cartridge: more musical than clinical and with a rich, effortless midrange, though perhaps a bit soft on top--but since my hearing stops at 16KHz, that's not much of an issue for me.  ;D 




I have that slight hum from my Grado Prestige Gold that is installed on my DUAL CS-750 - no fancy TT here since I really do not listen to LP's much.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on February 21, 2009, 12:05:33 PM
Some of the would-be rocket scientists around here whose apprehension of reality is so severely handicapped by intellectualism that they deny the existence of phenomena unexplained by their pet theories

But I understand what these guys are reacting to.  Audiophilia has been overrun with Mpingo disk style insanity.  It's now accepted conventional wisdom in this community that a serious system must include expensive boutique interconnects and cables, and that these all have very different sonic characteristics (always described with audiophile poetics that would make a Vogon green with envy).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on February 21, 2009, 02:31:00 PM
But I understand what these guys are reacting to.  Audiophilia has been overrun with Mpingo disk style insanity.  It's now accepted conventional wisdom in this community that a serious system must include expensive boutique interconnects and cables, and that these all have very different sonic characteristics (always described with audiophile poetics that would make a Vogon green with envy).
You bet.  But just because some hucksters sell $5000 carburetors with promises of 50mpg doesn't mean that there aren't real differences among carburetors.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on February 21, 2009, 03:14:19 PM
Who claimed there are no audible differences between cartridges?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Jay F on February 21, 2009, 04:45:24 PM
Who claimed there are no audible differences between cartridges?
Nobody, I would hope.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 21, 2009, 04:47:16 PM
Nobody, I would hope.

I used to work with someone who claimed he was tone-deaf ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Häuschen on February 21, 2009, 07:21:10 PM
My main system:

Marantz 2265B
Marantz Model 1070
Marantz 5030B
Wharfedale W70C
Rega P3 w/ Grado Platinum

Too many secondary system components to list and making my apartment tighter than Dr. Caligari's Cabinet.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on March 10, 2009, 06:47:55 PM
Hitting this on the 29th.  Anyone looking for something out of the way?

http://vintagevoltageexpo.eventbrite.com/
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on March 12, 2009, 08:12:42 AM
Hitting this on the 29th.  Anyone looking for something out of the way?

http://vintagevoltageexpo.eventbrite.com/

I'd be so there if I lived in the area!  Hope you can take pictures and post them for us.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on March 12, 2009, 12:31:59 PM
I used to work with someone who claimed he was tone-deaf ...
Well I'm cable-deaf.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on March 12, 2009, 05:22:15 PM
I'd be so there if I lived in the area!  Hope you can take pictures and post them for us.

Great idea!  I will try to remember a camera.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on March 12, 2009, 10:26:28 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41485Pm1trL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

iPod Classic 120G.  No, I couldn't wait for the latest and greatest iWhatever, I got this at Costco in preparation for a work trip to cold and wet Scotland.  What I really need for the flight over is heavy sedation.  With my Etymotics, it does sound a bit mettalic, so I hope it doesn't just induce a headache.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on March 13, 2009, 03:30:15 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41485Pm1trL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

No, I couldn't wait for the latest and greatest iWhatever, I got this at Costco in preparation for a work trip to cold and wet Scotland. 

Line of the day.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Wanderer on March 13, 2009, 06:17:02 AM
If you waited less, you could've gotten the (previous generation) 160 GB model. Holds a ton of lossless stuff and then some more. Built like a tank, too. Never regretted it for a minute.  8)

(The 120 GB newer model is more elegant/less bulky and can still hold music to last one for weeks. Good choice!:-)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on March 13, 2009, 05:18:21 PM
If you waited less, you could've gotten the (previous generation) 160 GB model. Holds a ton of lossless stuff and then some more. Built like a tank, too. Never regretted it for a minute.  8)

(The 120 GB newer model is more elegant/less bulky and can still hold music to last one for weeks. Good choice!:-)

Is the 160 GB model still available?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on March 13, 2009, 05:38:30 PM
Line of the day.

The last time I went to Scotland (in October), I came back with a cough that lasted a month.   The damn Scots have done nothing since to improve their weather.

http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/03140.html
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on March 13, 2009, 05:41:50 PM
The last time I went to Scotland (in October), I came back with a cough that lasted a month.   The damn Scots have done nothing since to improve their weather.

http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/03140.html

So it is Seattle kind of weather ... mostly cloudy and rainy.   ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on March 13, 2009, 06:08:29 PM
The last time I went to Scotland (in October), I came back with a cough that lasted a month.   The damn Scots have done nothing since to improve their weather.

http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/03140.html

I was actually referring to your latest and greatest iWhatever.  Cold and rainy sounds wonderful to me.  Rainy spring and fall days are my favorites.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Wanderer on March 14, 2009, 12:45:14 AM
Is the 160 GB model still available?

I don't think so, unless used (which I don't recommend). I remember when the new models came out (early last fall?) Apple stores and assorted dealers were pushing their previous generation stock at quite low(er) prices, but I doubt whether there's anything left now to be purchased from a legitimate source.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on March 14, 2009, 10:40:43 AM
I don't think so, unless used (which I don't recommend). I remember when the new models came out (early last fall?) Apple stores and assorted dealers were pushing their previous generation stock at quite low(er) prices, but I doubt whether there's anything left now to be purchased from a legitimate source.

Does the 120 GB iPod Classic now have an aluminium casing instead of a plastic casing?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Shrunk on March 19, 2009, 11:11:40 AM
If there are any aficionados of tube audio gear reading this, here is one guy definitely not to buy from:

http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTIzNzQ3Njc2N2ZQWU1ISXNZVkZfMV8xX2wuZ2lm
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on March 19, 2009, 11:54:17 AM
A friend of mine changed the coupling capacitors between DACs and opamps in his Slimdevices Transporter. We synced his and mine (which is stock) and used a switchbox to select between them. We heard no difference. Common sense applied that figures.
Audiophile sense applied it is impossible that they sounded the same, of course.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: nut-job on March 19, 2009, 11:58:27 AM
If there are any aficionados of tube audio gear reading this, here is one guy definitely not to buy from:

http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTIzNzQ3Njc2N2ZQWU1ISXNZVkZfMV8xX2wuZ2lm

 I guess the meaning of "vacuum" in "vacuum tube" escaped him.   :o
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on April 28, 2009, 10:14:05 AM
Pulled the trigger on this baby today:

(http://www.balanced.com/products/line/Vk-3iX/images/image004.jpg)

The BAT VK-3iX preamp with remote and phono section.  What started the audiophile upgraditis again was hearing a friend's Dynaudio Special 25 speakers hooked up to his big Tri-Vista integrated amp.  It sounded so much warmer than my system, which started sounded a little cold and hard in comparison.  Since I didn't relish having to get rid of my speakers, I tried this preamp first.  It totally transformed the system.  The speaker system, the NHT Xd, now sounds great, obviously an excellent match with the BAT.  I'm trading in my Rogue Magnum 99 for the 3iX.  The downside is that the BAT does not have a mono button.  But it does have a much nicer digital volume control, and the optional solid state phono board sounds great.  And, of course, the BAT is a completely balanced design.  Since my CD player and amp are both balanced, that makes the whole chain balanced now.  I bought some nice pro audio XLR connectors for $30 from a place called Monoprice, and I'll be returning the $1500 foofoo XLR cable the shop lent me.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on April 28, 2009, 03:46:58 PM
Pulled the trigger on this baby today:

(http://www.balanced.com/products/line/Vk-3iX/images/image004.jpg)

The BAT VK-3iX preamp with remote and phono section.  What started the audiophile upgraditis again was hearing a friend's Dynaudio Special 25 speakers hooked up to his big Tri-Vista integrated amp.  It sounded so much warmer than my system, which started sounded a little cold and hard in comparison.  Since I didn't relish having to get rid of my speakers, I tried this preamp first.  It totally transformed the system.  The speaker system, the NHT Xd, now sounds great, obviously an excellent match with the BAT.  I'm trading in my Rogue Magnum 99 for the 3iX.  The downside is that the BAT does not have a mono button.  But it does have a much nicer digital volume control, and the optional solid state phono board sounds great.  And, of course, the BAT is a completely balanced design.  Since my CD player and amp are both balanced, that makes the whole chain balanced now.  I bought some nice pro audio XLR connectors for $30 from a place called Monoprice, and I'll be returning the $1500 foofoo XLR cable the shop lent me.

I like the tube preamp and SS amp combo.  I run my CJ MF2500A with the Sonic Frontier Line 1.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: techniquest on April 28, 2009, 10:26:50 PM
Meanwhile, back in the budget department, I'm still listening to my music on exactly the same equipment I described on page 3 and I'm still happy with it.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on April 28, 2009, 11:43:21 PM
I bought some nice pro audio XLR connectors for $30 from a place called Monoprice, and I'll be returning the $1500 foofoo XLR cable the shop lent me.
You choose wisely

;D

And me, I like the SS preamp (actually only a DAC) and class D power amp combo.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 03, 2009, 05:59:10 PM
Needed to replace my Realistic 2100 D Receiver in my workroom and wanted to go a bit on the vintage side without breaking the bank, so grabbed this tonight:

(http://i.ebayimg.com/07/!BRTUHIg!Wk~$(KGrHgoH-DgEjlLlgJ6SBJ9RvO5Ro!~~_1.JPG)
   
MARANTZ 2230

Here was the discription:

30 watts per channel, continuous into 8 ohms. (As powerful as many newer units rated 60 watts or more.)

A great unit for any room!! This unit plays very well!! 

This unit has that classic Marantz sound.

Faceplate  very good, (9/10), A couple of marks here and there.   All corners good.

Dial glass very good, some very light small scratches from cleaning. Faceplate, dial glass and tuning scale cleaned inside and out.

All original knobs!!   Original feet!!

All controls and switches cleaned with De-Ox-It , operate quietly and smoothly.

 All original audio output transistors!!!

All panel lights work, meter works, dial pointer light works, stereo indicator replaced. All function indicators work.

Power Supply B+ voltage adjusted to factory specifications.

Audio Amplifier Forward Bias set to factory specifications.

Panel and meter lamps replaced!

All inputs work--Phono, Tape 1 In/Out, Aux.

Connections for two sets of speakers.

FM reception is excellent, AM reception is very good.

Cabinet is in very good shape, better than most units this age.  Only a couple of slight marks, hardly noticiable.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: RussellG on May 03, 2009, 06:14:19 PM
Needed to replace my Realistic 2100 D Receiver in my workroom and wanted to go a bit on the vintage side without breaking the bank, so grabbed this tonight:

Nice one Bill.  Have you picked it up yet?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 03, 2009, 06:35:23 PM
Nice one Bill.  Have you picked it up yet?

No, Russ.  It is being shipped, so fingers are beginning to cross.  However, this seller had over 3000 feedbacks and was at 100% positive.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: RussellG on May 03, 2009, 06:49:11 PM
No, Russ.  It is being shipped, so fingers are beginning to cross.  However, this seller had over 3000 feedbacks and was at 100% positive.

Cool, let us know if it solves your sound problems.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 03, 2009, 09:04:01 PM
Needed to replace my Realistic 2100 D Receiver in my workroom and wanted to go a bit on the vintage side without breaking the bank, so grabbed this tonight:

(http://i.ebayimg.com/07/!BRTUHIg!Wk~$(KGrHgoH-DgEjlLlgJ6SBJ9RvO5Ro!~~_1.JPG)


That's a very nice looking piece of kit, Bill. Very nostalgic and graceful.

I love that AM/FM signal indicator on the left - reminds me of my first stereo as a kid (w/ 8-track!).

Coolsville. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 03, 2009, 10:24:32 PM
(http://i.ebayimg.com/07/!BRTUHIg!Wk~$(KGrHgoH-DgEjlLlgJ6SBJ9RvO5Ro!~~_1.JPG)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 04, 2009, 05:46:38 AM
Needed to replace my Realistic 2100 D Receiver in my workroom and wanted to go a bit on the vintage side without breaking the bank, so grabbed this tonight:

(http://i.ebayimg.com/07/!BRTUHIg!Wk~$(KGrHgoH-DgEjlLlgJ6SBJ9RvO5Ro!~~_1.JPG)
   
MARANTZ 2230

Here was the discription:

30 watts per channel, continuous into 8 ohms. (As powerful as many newer units rated 60 watts or more.)

A great unit for any room!! This unit plays very well!! 

This unit has that classic Marantz sound.

Faceplate  very good, (9/10), A couple of marks here and there.   All corners good.

Dial glass very good, some very light small scratches from cleaning. Faceplate, dial glass and tuning scale cleaned inside and out.

All original knobs!!   Original feet!!

All controls and switches cleaned with De-Ox-It , operate quietly and smoothly.

 All original audio output transistors!!!

All panel lights work, meter works, dial pointer light works, stereo indicator replaced. All function indicators work.

Power Supply B+ voltage adjusted to factory specifications.

Audio Amplifier Forward Bias set to factory specifications.

Panel and meter lamps replaced!

All inputs work--Phono, Tape 1 In/Out, Aux.

Connections for two sets of speakers.

FM reception is excellent, AM reception is very good.

Cabinet is in very good shape, better than most units this age.  Only a couple of slight marks, hardly noticiable.
Bill--
I bought a 2270 back in the '70s.  It served me well for many years until I moved up to separates.  My aunt and uncle bought a 2230 at about the same time.  It's still chugging along, good as the day it was born.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on May 04, 2009, 06:16:19 AM
Needed to replace my Realistic 2100 D Receiver in my workroom and wanted to go a bit on the vintage side without breaking the bank, so grabbed this tonight:

(http://i.ebayimg.com/07/!BRTUHIg!Wk~$(KGrHgoH-DgEjlLlgJ6SBJ9RvO5Ro!~~_1.JPG)
   
MARANTZ 2230


Boy, that's a sentimental journey: I used to have that one from 1973 through the eighties. In the nineties I adopted power / end amps.

In twenty years of service only one problem developed. One of the stereo channels sometimes quit, and it needed a whack on the top to restore sound.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 05, 2009, 11:08:37 AM


     (http://i.ebayimg.com/07/!BRTUHIg!Wk~$(KGrHgoH-DgEjlLlgJ6SBJ9RvO5Ro!~~_1.JPG)

     There's a modern stereo receiver that reminds me of this:

     (http://www.outlawaudio.com/images/RR2150front.jpg)

     Outlaw Audio RR2150 Stereo Receiver

     100 wpc with USB input and DAC, sub out and analog bass management.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 05, 2009, 11:47:54 AM
 There's a modern stereo receiver that reminds me of this:
How so?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 05, 2009, 12:11:37 PM


     It reminds me of the virtues of the classic stereo receiver with the modern features that might prevent you from using one. And the design is retro and modern at the same time. If you don't want a bunch of extra channels or video or satellite radio this is just what you need. It even has a phono input.

     Outlaw appears to be a design shop which farms out manufacture in the manner that was established by NAD. The products have a very pronounced NAD-ish flavor to them.

     Look here:

     (http://www.outlawaudio.com/images/2150rear500.jpg)   (http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/1694/clipboard01t.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 05, 2009, 03:31:10 PM
Needed to replace my Realistic 2100 D Receiver in my workroom and wanted to go a bit on the vintage side without breaking the bank, so grabbed this tonight:

(http://i.ebayimg.com/07/!BRTUHIg!Wk~$(KGrHgoH-DgEjlLlgJ6SBJ9RvO5Ro!~~_1.JPG)
   
MARANTZ 2230

Here was the discription:

30 watts per channel, continuous into 8 ohms. (As powerful as many newer units rated 60 watts or more.)

A great unit for any room!! This unit plays very well!! 

This unit has that classic Marantz sound.

Faceplate  very good, (9/10), A couple of marks here and there.   All corners good.

Dial glass very good, some very light small scratches from cleaning. Faceplate, dial glass and tuning scale cleaned inside and out.

All original knobs!!   Original feet!!

All controls and switches cleaned with De-Ox-It , operate quietly and smoothly.

 All original audio output transistors!!!

All panel lights work, meter works, dial pointer light works, stereo indicator replaced. All function indicators work.

Power Supply B+ voltage adjusted to factory specifications.

Audio Amplifier Forward Bias set to factory specifications.

Panel and meter lamps replaced!

All inputs work--Phono, Tape 1 In/Out, Aux.

Connections for two sets of speakers.

FM reception is excellent, AM reception is very good.

Cabinet is in very good shape, better than most units this age.  Only a couple of slight marks, hardly noticiable.

Nice receiver.  I had wanted to get a Marantz receiver years ago but never did.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 05, 2009, 04:45:24 PM
I am glad to see that many are fans of this brand.  My father just picked up one for his garage stereo at a recent vintage audio show.  It only has 15 watts per channel and he was very surprised by its power....thirty should be plenty for my small workroom.  Now, what is it with these older models and their power?  Did they used to use a different measurement bck in the day?  I thought a watt was a, well, watt? 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 05, 2009, 04:57:37 PM
I am glad to see that many are fans of this brand.  My father just picked up one for his garage stereo at a recent vintage audio show.  It only has 15 watts per channel and he was very surprised by its power....thirty should be plenty for my small workroom.  Now, what is it with these older models and their power?  Did they used to use a different measurement bck in the day?  I thought a watt was a, well, watt? 
 

It may have something to do with the quality of the transformer.  Have you ever wondered why your 15 year old refrigerator or dish washer is still going strong while the new models with offshore-made electrical motors often conk in less than five years?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 05, 2009, 05:02:33 PM
I am glad to see that many are fans of this brand.  My father just picked up one for his garage stereo at a recent vintage audio show.  It only has 15 watts per channel and he was very surprised by its power....thirty should be plenty for my small workroom.  Now, what is it with these older models and their power?  Did they used to use a different measurement bck in the day?  I thought a watt was a, well, watt? 
To keep things simple, Bill, you need to compare apples with apples.  The standard is continuous RMS watts at a given level of distortion (i.e. 1% THD) into the specified load, usually 8 ohms.  That has not changed.  Snake oil salesmen now just as then con gullible consumers with exaggerated and essentially meaningless claims citing "peak dynamic power" ratings at unspecified distortion into unspecified loads.  
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 05, 2009, 05:12:08 PM
To keep things simple, Bill, you need to compare apples with apples.  The standard is continuous RMS watts at a given level of distortion (i.e. 1% THD) into the specified load, usually 8 ohms.  That has not changed.  Snake oil salesmen now just as then con gullible consumers with exaggerated and essentially meaningless claims citing "peak dynamic power" ratings at unspecified distortion into unspecified loads.  


Nice to see you back, David....and, thank you.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 05, 2009, 05:14:11 PM
 

It may have something to do with the quality of the transformer.  Have you ever wondered why your 15 year old refrigerator or dish washer is still going strong while the new models with offshore-made electrical motors often conk in less than five years?

We have a Whirlpool washer......32 years old and never repaired.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 05, 2009, 05:22:51 PM
We have a Whirlpool washer......32 years old and never repaired.

Many of the vintage audio gears were very well-made. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 05, 2009, 05:35:41 PM
 

It may have something to do with the quality of the transformer.  Have you ever wondered why your 15 year old refrigerator or dish washer is still going strong while the new models with offshore-made electrical motors often conk in less than five years?

I have this old GE electric can opener.  It's avacado green, if that gives you some idea of the vintage.   It must be about 40 years old.  It seemed to stop working, so I replaced it with a new model and different brand, not the cheapest one either.  But that new one was really hard to use: you had get the can under the cutter just right, and even then it would leave crude edges.  Turned out the blade of the old one just needed cleaning.  It's still working like a charm.  Here's a pic of one that was selling on ebay:

(http://i.ebayimg.com/22/!BQC!bvgBmk~$(KGrHgoOKiQEjlLmEZt(BJ2q6I!TCQ~~_1.JPG)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 05, 2009, 05:43:26 PM
These days, manufacturers basically make sure their products conk out shortly after their warranties expire.  Then they make the out-of-warranty repairs so costly that people will be forced to buy new products again.  This is a scam in my opinion ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on May 05, 2009, 09:50:58 PM
Many of the vintage audio gears were very well-made. 

Well, I did mention there was a problem with my old Marantz, and I would not go beyond calling it a very good mass market product.

In hindsight I'm not sure a tuner has a place in an amplifier and a tone control is fairly suspicious, too IMHO.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 05, 2009, 10:14:47 PM
a tone control is fairly suspicious, too IMHO.

First they came for the loudness button, but I said nothing, because that is only for casual listening.
Then they came for the tone controls, but I said nothing, because I bought that they were suspicious, too.
Then they came for the mono button, but I still said nothing, because I had few mono Lps.
Then they came for the balance control, but I held my tongue because I didn't have balance problems at the time.
Then they came for the volume control...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 06, 2009, 02:14:22 AM
Yeah. They made it step 2dB at a time. Bloody useless.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 06, 2009, 05:14:05 PM
Yeah. They made it step 2dB at a time. Bloody useless.

I still enjoy playing my Tandberg gears, part of my vintage systems collection.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 06, 2009, 10:57:45 PM
I used to have Tandberg 3000-series gear. Beautiful boxes. I've owned 3003, 3038A, 3036A, 3028A, 3026A, and 3031A. The latter had a rather cheap FM-board, which is now thrown out. I put a couple of used B&O ICEpower500ASP class D power amplifier modules into that box and they drive my subwoofers. That's what left of Tandberg here.
The whole semiactive speaker system is constructed by a friend of mine, and the main speakers use two SEAS Excel 5" Al-Mg drivers. So my gear is still a little bit Norwegian.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 07, 2009, 02:45:33 AM
First they came for the loudness button, but I said nothing, because that is only for casual listening.
Then they came for the tone controls, but I said nothing, because I bought that they were suspicious, too.
Then they came for the mono button, but I still said nothing, because I had few mono Lps.
Then they came for the balance control, but I held my tongue because I didn't have balance problems at the time.
Then they came for the volume control...

 :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on May 07, 2009, 02:58:51 AM
Soon they'll come for your ears, and then you'd better be real worried!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 07, 2009, 04:11:08 PM
I used to have Tandberg 3000-series gear. Beautiful boxes. I've owned 3003, 3038A, 3036A, 3028A, 3026A, and 3031A. The latter had a rather cheap FM-board, which is now thrown out. I put a couple of used B&O ICEpower500ASP class D power amplifier modules into that box and they drive my subwoofers. That's what left of Tandberg here.
The whole semiactive speaker system is constructed by a friend of mine, and the main speakers use two SEAS Excel 5" Al-Mg drivers. So my gear is still a little bit Norwegian.

I have not used my Tandberg TD 20A open-reel deck in a while.  But my main amplications are provided by two Conrad Johnson amps.  I still have two Tandberg receivers and have 5 stereo systems set up at my house ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on May 14, 2009, 07:33:32 PM
My pretty old Wadia 830 CD player developed a problem, so I bought this:

(http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/pics/wadia_302.jpg)

Wadia 302. Even though all CD players sounds alike, this sounds glorious.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 15, 2009, 11:45:06 AM
Oh well. All CD-players sound glorious.
Gongratulations on your purchase, erato.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 15, 2009, 12:28:17 PM
Wadia 302. Even though all CD players sounds alike, this sounds glorious.
;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 15, 2009, 12:32:12 PM
My pretty old Wadia 830 CD player developed a problem, so I bought this:

(http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/pics/wadia_302.jpg)

Wadia 302. Even though all CD players sounds alike, this sounds glorious.

I had this player at home for a while, and its indeed a glorious sounding piece of equipment....
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 15, 2009, 02:23:18 PM
Needed to replace my Realistic 2100 D Receiver in my workroom and wanted to go a bit on the vintage side without breaking the bank, so grabbed this tonight:

(http://i.ebayimg.com/07/!BRTUHIg!Wk~$(KGrHgoH-DgEjlLlgJ6SBJ9RvO5Ro!~~_1.JPG)
   
MARANTZ 2230

....

Nice! I lover these vintage pieces.

For a time I owned the Marantz 2252B below.  Unfortunately really had no place to set up another system, so I sold it to another vintage lover.  I do still own the nice little Marantz 1070 amp at the bottom.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 15, 2009, 02:35:27 PM
I like the tube preamp and SS amp combo.  I run my CJ MF2500A with the Sonic Frontier Line 1.

Ah! Another Sonic Frontiers Line 1.  I've got one too and am quite fond of it.

In my case too it's mated with solid state; for me a pair of Monarcy Audio SM-70 Pro's.  These feed my Magneplanar M6 1.6QR speakers 120 wpc which plenty for the volumes at which l listen.

Sonic Frontiers LINE 1 with weird but effective remote control ...

(http://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/SonicFrontiersLINE1wRC.jpg)

Monarch SM-70 Pro, (I've got a pair used as monoblocks) ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 15, 2009, 08:31:36 PM
How would you describe your sound when using your previous Marantz, Billy Batson? ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 16, 2009, 03:06:09 AM
How would you describe your sound when using your previous Marantz, Billy Batson? ;)

Well, the Marantz of the era where generally slightly warm, with strong if slightly lush bass.  They were smoother balanced and less "forward" than, say, Yamaha.  Many considered the latter to be bright, even sharp, but not so the Marantz.  On the Marantz end of the spectrum was Sansui; Pioneer as is generally judge to be in the middle.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 04:01:45 AM
Well, the Marantz of the era where generally slightly warm, with strong if slightly lush bass.  They were smoother balanced and less "forward" than, say, Yamaha.  Many considered the latter to be bright, even sharp, but not so the Marantz.  On the Marantz end of the spectrum was Sansui; Pioneer as is generally judge to be in the middle.

The only Marantz gear I have ever owned was a second-generation CD player, which was built like a tank and made in Japan.  I still have one of the two Pioneer quad receivers at the house (but unused).  My Yamaha bidirectional record/play cassette deck came back from a repair shop in Chicago a few years ago and I have yet to check it out.  Talking about lack of time ...  LOL
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 16, 2009, 05:02:40 AM
(http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34404.0;attach=85338;image)

Sometimes my world revolves at 33 1/3 rpm, but mostly the old SOTA is just sitting pretty.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 05:07:17 AM
(http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34404.0;attach=85338;image)

Sometimes my world revolves at 33 1/3 rpm, but mostly the old SOTA is just sitting pretty.
 

Sota TT always has a nice natural-wood plinth ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 16, 2009, 05:12:48 AM
Mine is so old that it has a vinyl top. Nowadays they use wood (solid and veneer) on the complete chassis.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 05:16:21 AM
Mine is so old that it has a vinyl top. Nowadays they use wood (solid and veneer) on the complete chassis.

I thought Sota TT has had a wooden top for some times.  Sota went into bankruptcy a number of years ago, it may no longer be owned by the original founder ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 16, 2009, 08:00:16 AM
That's right, but the current upmarket designs par one are refinements of the original Sapphire and later Star. www.sotaturntables.com.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 08:07:12 AM
That's right, but the current upmarket designs par one are refinements of the original Sapphire and later Star. www.sotaturntables.com.
 

Now how does VAT work on American imports since the US does not have a VAT system to begin with?  Your friendly importer in Norway just slapped the import duty on the Sota TT's retail price in lieu of a VAT?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 16, 2009, 08:22:08 AM
Oh, I bought mine used for youwouldn'tbelievehowlittle, and the bits I needed for it came diretly from SOTA.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 16, 2009, 08:58:35 AM
     Here's my vintage setup, bought in the mid '70s and sold in the early '80s:

     (http://www.audiosoundsolutions.net/store/images/DSC00320.JPG)

     Soundcraftsmen 2217 Preamp Equalizer

     (http://www.classicaudio.com/value/mac/MC2105.jpg)

     McIntosh MC 2105 Amplifier

     (http://www.soundadviceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/ohmfs.jpg)

     Ohm F Speakers

     If you question the inclusion of the equalizer remember that the ideology that forbade them didn't even exist in 1976. Equalizers were evaluated like tone controls, for their effectiveness and absence of phase shift. A young person teleported to those days would be shocked at the commonsensical way equipment was viewed. Only those components which could plausibly be said to have a sound had sounds attributed to them. So the sound of the amps here could be said to derive from the power the amp delivered to the speakers (in this case extremely demanding ones), as well as the effect of the EQ I used, which was typically a boost in the low bass and razor flat above that.

    The sound overall was the best I have ever heard, and I attribute that entirely to the Ohm F's. The McIntosh contributed the ability to exceed it's power ratings. The preamp did what it was supposed to do. The room had high ceilings and was squarish, and music sounded good in it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 09:14:46 AM
          
     (http://www.soundadviceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/ohmfs.jpg)

     Ohm F Speakers

The driver design of the Ohm speaker has always fascinated me ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 16, 2009, 11:06:01 AM
     Here's my vintage setup, bought in the mid '70s and sold in the early '80s:

     Soundcraftsmen 2217 Preamp Equalizer

     McIntosh MC 2105 Amplifier

     (http://www.soundadviceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/ohmfs.jpg)

     Ohm F Speakers

...
Hah!  Terrific. I owned a pair of Ohm F between about 1976 and 1980 -- they were great speakers and it is one of my greatest hi-fi regrets to day that I sold them to  by a pair of crappy B&W DM7's.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 11:13:58 AM
Hah!  Terrific. I owned a pair of Ohm F between about 1976 and 1980 -- they were great speakers and it is one of my greatest hi-fi regrets to day that I sold them to  by a pair of crappy B&W DM7's.

I think the B&W 800 (Matrix?) series were great speakers, even Karajan used those speakers to monitor his recordings in the studio ....
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 16, 2009, 11:20:07 AM


     (http://www.classicaudio.com/value/mac/MC2105.jpg)

     McIntosh MC 2105 Amplifier


You gotta love those apples!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 11:22:55 AM
You gotta love those apples!

I prefer this Mac over the Mac made by Apple ...   ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 16, 2009, 11:34:40 AM
I think the B&W 800 (Matrix?) series were great speakers, even Karajan used those speakers to monitor his recordings in the studio ....

     B&W Matrix 800 series speakers were the recording studio monitors of choice for many years and there are no doubt many that are still being used today.  The DM 7's were a less expensive, smaller speaker which had the same tweeter as the Matrix line. I still own a pair of DM 310's from the early 90's, even smaller speakers that also use the version of the Matrix tweeter found in the 800's.

     (http://i7.ebayimg.com/05/i/001/33/d7/0b1d_1.JPG)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 01:13:19 PM
     B&W Matrix 800 series speakers were the recording studio monitors of choice for many years and there are no doubt many that are still being used today.  The DM 7's were a less expensive, smaller speaker which had the same tweeter as the Matrix line. I still own a pair of DM 310's from the early 90's, even smaller speakers that also use the version of the Matrix tweeter found in the 800's.

     (http://i7.ebayimg.com/05/i/001/33/d7/0b1d_1.JPG)
 

Unlike KEF, Quad and Mission, which are now outright owned by the Chinese with all their models made in China,  B&W is still English-owned and the high-end models are still made in the UK.  Your DM 310's are no doubt English-made.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 16, 2009, 05:11:03 PM
What is your best guess to how a set of Bose 301's would sound with my '73 Marantz?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 16, 2009, 05:21:51 PM
What is your best guess to how a set of Bose 301's would sound with my '73 Marantz?

Are you thinking of buying the Bose 301's new?  Or are they pre-owned?

No doubt you are aware that the audiophile consensus is that Bose stuff is over-priced junk.  But don't let that stop you if you like them though.  ;D

Buying new in the Bose 301 price range, Paradigm Atom (http://www.paradigm.com/en/paradigm/speaker_only-specification-1-1-2-4.paradigm) or PSB Alpha B1 (http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/Alpha-Series/Alpha-B1-Monitor) would be considered far better choices.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 05:43:05 PM
Are you thinking of buying the Bose 301's new?  Or are they preowned?

No doubt you are aware that the audiophile consensus is that Bose stuff is over-priced junk.  But don't let that stop you if you like them though.  ;D

When I was an uninitiated college undergrad, I used to think highly of Bose after I heard a demo of its flagship 901 at some NY Hi-Fi show.  Bose is just a tremendous marketing machine.  While I would not call its speakers junk, they are at best a line of overpriced mid-fi speakers ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 16, 2009, 06:10:17 PM
 

Unlike KEF, Quad and Mission, which are now outright owned by the Chinese with all their models made in China,  B&W is still English-owned and the high-end models are still made in the UK.  Your DM 310's are no doubt English-made.

     That's right. I paid about $500 for them in 1991 dollars. Today I think you would be better off with the Canadian small speakers. Paradigm, NHT, and PSB all make good ones.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 16, 2009, 06:16:42 PM
     That's right. I paid about $500 for them in 1991 dollars. Today I think you would be better off with the Canadian small speakers. Paradigm, NHT, and PSB all make good ones.

I have a pair of lightly used PSB Image 2B's in the master bedroom system.  They are nice little bookshelf speakers.  I will buy any of these Canadian-made speakers again in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 16, 2009, 06:44:13 PM
Thanks for the advice.  I am trying to add a bit of crispnees to my old Sansui floor speakers for the late 1960's.  Right now I have some Wharfedale Diamonds:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i.testfreaks.co.uk/images/products/600x400/121/wharfedale-diamond-9-1.561785.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.testfreaks.co.uk/hifi-speakers/wharfedale-diamond-9-1/&usg=__uPTy86_QH4rH0MOASMj1zxzm8eE=&h=400&w=523&sz=69&hl=en&start=13&sig2=KUcGNJc3j0nhy70Zuq453Q&um=1&tbnid=LNTdUFsuX6P0CM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=131&prev=/images%3Fq%3DWharfedale%2BDiamonds%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DnxC%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1&ei=3IcPSvz0OujDtgfqzMSRCA
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 17, 2009, 02:16:05 AM
Thanks for the advice.  I am trying to add a bit of crispnees to my old Sansui floor speakers for the late 1960's.  Right now I have some Wharfdale Diamonds:
...

Those Wharfdales have a good rep.  My research indicates that couple more possibilities in the lower price range are the Epos ELS-3 and the Infinity Primus PS162.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 03:42:07 AM
Those Wharfdales have a good rep.  My research indicates that couple more possibilities in the lower price range are the Epos ELS-3 and the Infinity Primus PS162.

And just about any of these names will provide higher quality sound than the Bose 301's ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on May 17, 2009, 04:37:25 AM
What is your best guess to how a set of Bose 301's would sound with my '73 Marantz?

don't do Bose.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 05:10:13 AM
Those Wharfdales have a good rep.  My research indicates that couple more possibilities in the lower price range are the Epos ELS-3 and the Infinity Primus PS162.

Maybe it is my Sansui 3000s I need to replace.  Is there such a thing as too much warmth?  Are my ears no attuned to a different sound than the one I enjoyed as a youngster in our living room?


(http://www.oaktreeent.com/web_photos/Stereo_Speakers/Sansui_SP-3500_Stereo_Speakers_web.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 05:13:59 AM
Maybe it is my Sansui 3000s I need to replace.  Is there such a thing as too much warmth?  Are my ears no attuned to a different sound than the one I enjoyed as a youngster in our living room?


(http://www.oaktreeent.com/web_photos/Stereo_Speakers/Sansui_SP-3500_Stereo_Speakers_web.jpg)

Morning, Bill.  These Sansui 3000s really have the classic 1960's look, the speaker grille in particular. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 05:35:17 AM
Morning, Bill.  These Sansui 3000s really have the classic 1960's look, the speaker grille in particular. 

Good morning, Stuart.  Indeed.  In fact, the ones I have are the ones my dad originally owned.  I am finding that jazz and some rock sound nice through them, but classical sounds muffled for the most part.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 05:39:01 AM
Good morning, Stuart.  Indeed.  In fact, the ones I have are the ones my dad originally owned.  I am finding that jazz and some rock sound nice through them, but classical sounds muffled for the most part.
 

There had been that criticism that Japanese speakers made prior to the late 1980's generally did not play well to the "western" ears.  But much progress has been made since the 90's when both Sony and Pioneer came out with speakers that have garnered some nice reviews ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 17, 2009, 05:47:24 AM
Bill--

You might find it helpful to visit a high end hi fi equipment dealer to hear for yourself what's available in a comfortable price range for you and to get a sense of what seriously good sound reproduction is like.  A quick web search turned up Cherry Creek Audio (http://www.cherrycreekaudio.com/) in Denver and Denver Audio Designs (http://www.denveraudiodesigns.com/) in Centennial.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 05:59:57 AM
Thanks David.  I am playing around with my system as I type here.  Spinning some Boyce Symphonies (about as sparkly as one can get) I am finding that when just through the Wharfedales the sound is very nice.  Add the Sansuis and there is too much "deep sound".  Very old school.

I believe my biggest problem was attending an audio show last fall where there was 160 rooms of top of the line equipment.  Since then, I have not been totally satisfied with any of the sound I can recreate in my workroom.  I am also finding I am constantly adjusting levels for different discs.  I seem to be doing more of that than just listening for enjoyment.

Just switched off the Sansuis again.  The Wharfedales are much nicer solo for the Boyce.

Another key though that I have found is that when listening to components at shops is that they have them set up with their best amps and also placed perfectly in the room.  Bring them home and the recreation can take a major hit.  Is this a fair comment my friend?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 17, 2009, 06:13:53 AM


   
Good morning, Stuart.  Indeed.  In fact, the ones I have are the ones my dad originally owned.  I am finding that jazz and some rock sound nice through them, but classical sounds muffled for the most part.

     I've been prowling around the Web looking for info on the Sansui's and I haven't found anything definitive. These thoughts occur to me, though: A 5-way speaker from the '60s has little chance of sounding like a modern speaker. There are too many things to go wrong: blown drivers, bad caps, loose wires and cracked solder. And even if these speakers have passed inspection from a vintage tech they are reputed to be a little bass shy (!) and limited in the treble. Supposedly the Advents blow these away. I believe it. Of all the speakers produced in the '60s I would pick the Advents to be most likely to stand up on SQ alone. My choice would be to either find a pair or confine my vintage enthusiasm to electronics. Unless you want to score a pair of Ohm F's or Quad's... :D Those will not be cheap, though.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 17, 2009, 06:36:02 AM
 
     I've been prowling around the Web looking for info on the Sansui's and I haven't found anything definitive. These thoughts occur to me, though: A 5-way speaker from the '60s has little chance of sounding like a modern speaker. There are too many things to go wrong: blown drivers, bad caps, loose wires and cracked solder. And even if these speakers have passed inspection from a vintage tech they are reputed to be a little bass shy (!) and limited in the treble. Supposedly the Advents blow these away. I believe it. Of all the speakers produced in the '60s I would pick the Advents to be most likely to stand up on SQ alone. My choice would be to either find a pair or confine my vintage enthusiasm to electronics. Unless you want to score a pair of Ohm F's or Quad's... :D Those will not be cheap, though.

Speaker components do deteriorate over time.  The biggest problem is crumbling foam surrounds on the speaker drivers.  Anything 20+ years old with foam surrounds -- and this includes the otherwise fine Advents -- either has had the foam replace or will need it very soon.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 17, 2009, 07:14:41 AM
Another key though that I have found is that when listening to components at shops is that they have them set up with their best amps and also placed perfectly in the room.  Bring them home and the recreation can take a major hit.  Is this a fair comment my friend?
Yes, Bill.  However, you cannot make a silk purse--or even a polyester faux-silk purse--out of a sow's ear.  In addition to setting up with optimum equipment chain and acoustic environment, the shop also has the advantage of the "wow" factor on first hearing surprisingly good sound.  With more exposure you get accustomed to it and it "becomes" more ordinary.

The "trick," to me, has been to get reasonably believable sound reproduction offering satisfying mimicry of live music (especially the all-important mid-range) with sufficient clarity to hear musical details (like the crisp shimmer of a drum kit's high hat) without inducing listener fatigue, and at a reasonable price.  It's possible to get equipment that gets these fundamentals right without spending a fortune.  The trade off for loudspeakers is mostly in frequency extension at the extremes and "heft"--that effortless dynamic response that can almost convince you that you're listening to a real orchestra instead of a recording (assuming you also have sufficient clean power to drive such speakers).  The inexpensive speakers we've all been recommending for the past year or so--the PSB, Epos, and Paradigm small "bookshelf" speakers--will all deliver much better sound than most mass-marketed mid-fi brands (like those old Sansuis) costing more.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 07:20:26 AM
So, let's say I enjoy the Wharfedales (bookshelf), but the Sansuis need to go.  Do I go with two sets of bookshelves, or just one pair?  (I guess I can have both functioning and pick and choose though.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Papageno on May 17, 2009, 07:25:36 AM
I have an Albarry Music amplifyer set and two big Rolland's Speakers connected to my Mac.
What happened to Albarry Music by the way? I can't find any reference of the company's existence online.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 07:34:50 AM
The Wharfedales I have may still be my best choice for my current price range.

I have the 9.1's.  Ran me about $300. 

(http://www.superfi.co.uk/images/main/Diamond-9.1-beech-1302x1090.jpg)

Jumping to $600 right now may be a bit of a stretch for me.  My father continuously goes to auctions though and I will have him  keep a lookout.  He grabbed a Pioneer receiver and a couple decent Sony shelf speakers for me the other day for use at work.  Total cost was only $30.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 17, 2009, 07:42:21 AM
The Wharfedales I have may still be my best choice for my current price range.

I have the 9.1's.  Ran me about $300. 

(http://www.superfi.co.uk/images/main/Diamond-9.1-beech-1302x1090.jpg)

Jumping to $600 right now may be a bit of a stretch for me.  My father continuously goes to auctions though and I will have him  keep a lookout.  He grabbed a Pioneer receiver and a couple decent Sony shelf speakers for me the other for use at work.  Total cost was only $30.
I've not heard the Wharfedale's, but Robert Reina--Stereophile's modestly priced speaker specialist--liked them very much, comparing them favorably with the Epos and with earlier iterations of the Paradigm Atoms and a step-down Infinity Primus.  http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1105wharfedale/ (http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1105wharfedale/)  If you already have them and are satisfied, then you probably cannot do appreciably better in that price range.  Don't worry.  Be happy.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 07:47:29 AM
Don't worry.  Be happy.


Done.  I am finding that my Marantz paired with these is pushing them very nicely.  The obsession to make the Sansuis blend with them may have been my biggest problem to begin with....that and the Realistic amp I had did not function well and left these Wharfedales virtually "unlistenable".
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on May 17, 2009, 07:53:07 AM
Like you seem to be saying now, I don't see what the problem is. Just stick to what you like best, forget about the Sansuis, and don't go to audio shows (or dealer rooms) if you can't spend (say) twice the amount you want to spend. Spend it on music.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 17, 2009, 07:56:27 AM
I've fallen in love with these Swedish blondes here, Guru QM10:

(http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34035.0;attach=85836;image)

If I was to have something small, I'd take something that was designed for placement very close to a reflective front wall, these would be my choice. But I don't plan to get them, so this is off topic.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 08:03:04 AM
Like you seem to be saying now, I don't see what the problem is. Just stick to what you like best, forget about the Sansuis, and don't go to audio shows (or dealer rooms) if you can't spend (say) twice the amount you want to spend. Spend it on music.

That would have been like telling me to stay away from the Sears Christmas Wish-Book when I was 7.... :D  Yup, they were selling cables for more than my entire workroom set-up.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 17, 2009, 08:04:21 AM
I've not heard the Wharfedale's, but Robert Reina--Stereophile's modestly priced speaker specialist--liked them very much, comparing them favorably with the Epos and with earlier iterations of the Paradigm Atoms and a step-down Infinity Primus.  http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1105wharfedale/ (http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1105wharfedale/)  If you already have them and are satisfied, then you probably cannot do appreciably better in that price range.  Don't worry.  Be happy.

For the money this Wharfedale speaker will serve you well Bill. I had this speaker for testing purposes, and it did excellent with classical music.
Coupled with a clean amplifier this speaker performs very well.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 08:06:07 AM
For the money this Wharfedale speaker will serve you well Bill. I had this speaker for testing purposes, and it did excellent with classical music.
Coupled with a clean amplifier this speaker performs very well.

That is what I have just discovered.  Just need a notch of volume to it when the Sansuis are taken off line and then all is wonderful sound.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 08:07:14 AM
It has proven to me first hand how much an amp can change the sound.  Still learning at this end folks.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 17, 2009, 08:35:36 AM
It has proven to me first hand how much an amp can change the sound.  Still learning at this end folks.
Aren't we all, Bill, aren't we all.  (Hmmm, guess not, come to think of it, since some seem already to know it all, making it impossible for them to learn...poor dears.  :'( )

Herman offers good advice.  The law of diminishing returns kicks in with a vengeance and it's progressive, requiring you to spend two or three times as much for each diminishing increment of audible improvement.  If the sound is adequate that you can close your eyes and just listen to the music without the equipment getting in the way, then if it's music you love you'll probably find more satisfaction by buying more software, not hardware--unless you have a surfeit of disposable income, like those dot.com millionaires with $50,000 systems playing Dark Side of the Moon on infinite repeat.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 08:46:41 AM
My dad has always said the same, David.  To make noticiable improvements, plan on large leaps of cash to get to each.  I heard my first six figure set up last fall and you are right.  If you have the money, it does make a difference.  However, after experimenting a bit and finding the right combo, I am very happy with the sound I have. 

On a side note:
What is the deal with preamps?  Are they a decent investment in sound?  Would my system benefit from one?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DarkAngel on May 17, 2009, 09:27:50 AM
(http://www.head-fi.org/forums/image.php?u=496&dateline=1215520314&type=profile)

Coming in late to this thread, but here is main audio system

The Rega Saturn CD player in picture has been replaced by Cambridge 840 CD player which I like a bit better
The Musical Fidelity 308 integrated amp has been professionally modded to improve sound
Headroom MAX headphone amp, Sennheiser HD650 & HD600 headphones
Tyler Taylo monitor speakers with 12" HSU VTF3 sub
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 17, 2009, 09:31:42 AM
... 

On a side note:
What is the deal with preamps?  Are they a decent investment in sound?  Would my system benefit from one?

Preamps aren't inherently better sounding than the front-end's of integrated amps, or receivers for that matter.  What a preamp can do is offer flexibility, especially the flexibility to upgrade parts of your system independantly of each other.  And that includes the ability to look for what you want or like for each of the separated components.

For example, having a preamp and power amp combo has enabled me to select a tube preamp with a solid state power amp, (a very popular combination by the way).  Since my preamp is a "line stage", i.e. without a phono preamp, I theoretically saved some money not buying phono stage of the same quality as my line stage, (instead I bought a really cheap phono for the very rare time I still listen to my extremely small LP collection).

Still, I'd be quite happy to trade my current preamp and power amps for a choice integrated like this Pass Labs INT-150 ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 17, 2009, 09:41:27 AM
What is the deal with preamps?  Are they a decent investment in sound?  Would my system benefit from one?
The basic functions of a pre-amp are (1) to boost low level source signals, (2) to isolate those low level signals from amplifier contamination, (3) to provide switching functions among sources, (4) to manipulate the signal if desired via tone & balance controls etc.  

Value depends upon your resources and needs; many integrated amplifiers (pre-amp and power amp in one chassis) nowadays offer very good performance at significantly lower cost than comparable separates.

Your receiver includes a pre-amp, a power amp, and a tuner built on one chassis.  There's no doubt that--unless you do a horrible job at system matching--separates would offer better sound quality, but at significantly greater cost, complexity, and space requirements.

A brief explanation of preamplifier functions is here (http://stereophile.com/reference/917/).

edit--Fixed link
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on May 17, 2009, 09:42:02 AM
What is the deal with preamps?  Are they a decent investment in sound?  Would my system benefit from one?

The advantage of preamps is they are physically separated from the power amp, which would make for noise reduction &c (except for those folks who stack their amps on top of each other). Financially you're talking a whole different ballgame, so best don't even think about it right now.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Jay F on May 17, 2009, 09:50:47 AM
A brief explanation of preamplifier functions is here (http://).

"The URL is not valid and could not be loaded."

Tell me this, David (or anyone), if you would be so kind. Does using a pre- and power amp combo always make for better soundstaging compared with using a receiver or integrated amp?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 17, 2009, 09:52:12 AM
"The URL is not valid and could not be loaded."

Tell me this, David (or anyone), if you would be so kind. Does using a pre- and power amp combo always make for better soundstaging compared with using a receiver or integrated amp?
No.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Jay F on May 17, 2009, 10:02:00 AM
No.
So, soundstaging would be more the result of the speaker you choose?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 10:03:26 AM
The basic functions of a pre-amp are (1) to boost low level source signals, (2) to isolate those low level signals from amplifier contamination, (3) to provide switching functions among sources, (4) to manipulate the signal if desired via tone & balance controls etc.  

Value depends upon your resources and needs; many integrated amplifiers (pre-amp and power amp in one chassis) nowadays offer very good performance at significantly lower cost than comparable separates.

Your receiver includes a pre-amp, a power amp, and a tuner built on one chassis.  There's no doubt that--unless you do a horrible job at system matching--separates would offer better sound quality, but at significantly greater cost, complexity, and space requirements.

A brief explanation of preamplifier functions is here (http://stereophile.com/reference/917/).

edit--Fixed link

Don't even bother with the tuner if you do not listen to FM much since the tuner that comes with any receiver these days is the manufacturer's afterthought.  In spite of all the talk of digital tuner that plays digital broadcast the last few years, the closest thing we have is SiriusXM and I am not a subscriber.  I do have two of the best tuners that have ever been made.  They are both close to 30-years old.  The top photo is the Revox B760 while the bottom photo is the Tandberg 3001.

(http://www.studerundrevox.de/images/content/revox_andere_produkte/revox_b760_01.jpg)

(http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/TPT-3001.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 17, 2009, 10:20:46 AM
So, soundstaging would be more the result of the speaker you choose?
Generally speaking, yes.  Loudspeaker placement in the room, acoustic qualities of the room, listener position, loudspeaker design, and whether or not the recording was properly miked and mixed are the biggest variables, but amplification does have some effect.  (For instance, an amp with poor channel separation is unlikely to image well).  The most wowie-zowie soundstage imaging I've ever heard has been with small "bookshelf" speakers (i.e. Rogers LS 3/5a) with almost no diffraction, placed well out from front and sidewalls (3-4') in a near-field listening position in a moderately damped room.  Probably the biggest mistake most people make is in placing speakers too close to the front wall.  Considerable experimentation with positioning distances and toe-in is usually required to dial them in. Here 's (http://stereophile.com/reference/1008speaks/) another Stereophile article on that subject.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 17, 2009, 10:38:32 AM
      Separates don't sound better because they are separate. They sound better, if and when they do, because the power amp is far more capable than the one located in the receiver or integrated amp you were using. There is no magic formula for getting better sound than you get from equipment meeting it's design goals. The component that is routinely driven past it's limitations is the power amp. Therefore that is what can be profitably replaced (I mean for you :)).

      Once again I have to remind all the mystics here that equipment does not make your music sound better unless you're playing a Fender Stratocaster. If you're just playing your recordings you want sufficiency. There is nothing better than that to be had on the electronics side. Speakers are different, of course. That's because speakers fall so far short of perfectly replicating signals, whereas the stereo signals of recorded music are replicated with an accuracy that is below audibility providing you're not driving the amp too hard. This is why differences can't be heard in blind tests unless measurable differences can be found. Circuits that do their job don't sound different from each other because they are designed not to. It has taken decades of stupid propaganda to unlearn these lessons. What will it take to relearn them again?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 10:41:53 AM
Well, from the article David, it definitely sounds as if I should get some speaker stands for Wharfedales and work on their placement.  Right now they are on a shelf about head level when standing up.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 17, 2009, 10:46:51 AM
Yes. Those Wharfedales are in need of a good foundation. But unless you have a heavy carpeted floor avoid spikes, which are - together with cables - hifi-nonsense at large.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 17, 2009, 10:48:43 AM

... Circuits that do their job don't sound different from each other because they are designed not to. It has taken decades of stupid propaganda to unlearn these lessons. What will it take to relearn them again?

You can believe that if you like.  That is, both sentence clauses are wrong.  In the first place they do sound different, and in the second place, it is often because they are designed to do so.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 17, 2009, 10:59:47 AM

     When they are designed to sound the same they do. When they are designed to sound different....see, that's the problem right there. If you imagine that electronic components could be profitably designed to be "more than sufficient" than you have bought into precisely the fallacy I'm identifying. That is, that after you've met the tech specs you have to add the good sound in or something will be missing. No, there is nothing to be missed.

You can believe that if you like. 

    I don't want to believe what I like.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 11:12:46 AM
(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:B9woKZLNvSABGM:http://lupusranting.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/i_want_to_believe.jpg)

Sorry. ;D

Valentino,
What are "spikes"?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 11:16:45 AM
There are really three advantages to separates, not including integrated amp:

1) You can swap components in and out of your system.

2) Better parts quality

3) Better ventilation

But the second advantage may be debatable, as IC's and other electronic components have come a long way since separates were first introduced in the 1950's.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 17, 2009, 11:27:12 AM
There are really three advantages to separates, not including integrated amp:

1) You can swap components in and out of your system.

2) Better parts quality

3) Better ventilation

But the second advantage may be debatable, as IC's and other electronic components have come a long way since separates were first introduced in the 1950's.

     Basically, you're right. Especially with respect to the power amp. These days receivers are getting lighter, which means it's likely that the output power honestly measured is dropping. A receiver that once would weigh 26 lbs. now weighs 18 lbs. Check out the Sony 820, only one generation old, and then check out its replacement. How much do they weigh? If you want to know what really limits sound quality in mass market equipment this is a big part of it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 11:37:50 AM
     Basically, you're right. Especially with respect to the power amp. These days receivers are getting lighter, which means it's likely that the output power honestly measured is dropping. A receiver that once would weigh 26 lbs. now weighs 18 lbs. Check out the Sony 820, only one generation old, and then check out its replacement. How much do they weigh? If you want to know what really limits sound quality in mass market equipment this is a big part of it.

Not that I am in a China-bashing mood, but if you look at audio components that are made in China, they are almost always light-weight.  Indeed, light-weight also equates to low price.  A receiver that weighs under 20 lbs is meant to be thrown out after 2 years.

Hey, people get what they pay for - there is no free lunch.  My Revox B760, a 30-year old tuner, weighs almost 30 lbs.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 17, 2009, 11:49:19 AM
     When they are designed to sound the same they do. When they are designed to sound different....see, that's the problem right there. If you imagine that electronic components could be profitably designed to be "more than sufficient" then you have bought into precisely the fallacy I'm identifying. That is, that after you've met the tech specs you have to add the good sound in or something will be missing. No, there is nothing to be missed.

    I don't want to believe what I like.

I didn't have to be sold it: I've heard it.  And I'm not as delusional as audiophiles get, believe me.  Check out the debates interconnect cables sometime.  But fine amps don't all sound the same, and the best spec'd ones aren't always the best sounding.

And there are reasons that aren't the anti-science that you suppose. For example the most commonly quoted amplifier specification other than power is total harmonic distortion, (THD).  Transistors aren't particularly linear devices and will produce quite a bit of harmonic distortion, however in typical solid state designs extremely low THD can be obtained by applying negative feedback to the circuit.  Tube circuits cannot be design to produce these ulta low distortion levels but many people perfer the sound of tube amps, (given comparable power capacities or even somewhat less power from the tube amp).

The likely reason is that though THD is very low for typical solid state designs, the remaining harmonics are high-order, that is, 4th, 5th, and higher harmonics.  Tubes designs, on the other hand, have higher THD but the components are almost entirely low order, i.e. 2nd and some 3rd order.  It has been demonstrated in psycoacoustic experiments that human beings find higher order harmonics irritating but 2nd order harmonics much less so, in fact pleasant.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 12:01:33 PM
I didn't have to be sold it: I've heard it.  And I'm not as delusional as audiophiles get, believe me.  Check out the debates interconnect cables sometime.  But fine amps don't all sound the same, and the best spec'd ones aren't always the best sounding.


You hit it right on the nail.  $1000/m cable?  Gimme a break. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 17, 2009, 01:30:15 PM
Preamps aren't inherently better sounding than the front-end's of integrated amps, or receivers for that matter.  What a preamp can do is offer flexibility, especially the flexibility to upgrade parts of your system independantly of each other.  And that includes the ability to look for what you want or like for each of the separated components.

For example, having a preamp and power amp combo has enabled me to select a tube preamp with a solid state power amp, (a very popular combination by the way).  Since my preamp is a "line stage", i.e. without a phono preamp, I theoretically saved some money not buying phono stage of the same quality as my line stage, (instead I bought a really cheap phono for the very rare time I still listen to my extremely small LP collection).

Still, I'd be quite happy to trade my current preamp and power amps for a choice integrated like this Pass Labs INT-150 ...

I have a pre-end amplification of Pass Labs the X250, and can confirm the excellence of sound. This integrated 150 is a real pleaser too.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 17, 2009, 04:47:00 PM
I have a pre-end amplification of Pass Labs the X250, and can confirm the excellence of sound. This integrated 150 is a real pleaser too.

Really nice, Harry.  I'm eating my heart out.  But pertaining to your X250, drogulus would but just as happy with the US$300 QSC GX3 professional amp below since it's a properly designed amp and just as powerful.

By the way, those speakers of yours you pictured earlier in the thread, are they Avalon Eidolons or Indras?  Whichever, I'm eating my heart out here too, though my preference might run to Soundlabs or maybe Apogee in the lofty price range.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 04:49:32 PM
Really nice, Harry.  I'm eating my heart out.  But pertaining to your X250, drogulus would but just as happy with the US$300 QSC GX3 300 professional amp below -- maybe more so since it's slightly more powerful.

By the way, those speakers of yours you pictured earlier in the thread, are they Avalon Eidolons or Indras?  Whichever, I'm eating my heart out here too, though my preference might run to Soundlabs or maybe Apogee in the lofty price range.

Is QSC a division of Crown International?  The QSC amp looks a bit like the Crown Macro Tech line of amps ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 17, 2009, 05:06:05 PM
Is QSC a division of Crown International?  The QSC amp looks a bit like the Crown Macro Tech line of amps ...

I don't think QSC (http://www.qscaudio.com/products/products.htm#Amplifier_Models) is related to Crown; in any case they operate as a separate and also well-regarded maker of pro audio gear.

If you think power is the be-all and end-all, for $1360, this QSC RMX-5050 (http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/rmx/rmx5050.htm) will deliver a mind-numbing 1600 wpc into 4 ohms, both channels driven, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, with only 0.1% THD.  Or if you can kick it up to $3k, (about half the price of Harry's Pass Labs X250, 250 wpc), the QSC PowerLight 380 (http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/powerlight3/powerlight3.htm) will punch 2000 wpc into 4 ohms or 4000 wpc into 2 ohms.  :o
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 05:38:58 PM
I don't think QSC (http://www.qscaudio.com/products/products.htm#Amplifier_Models) is related to Crown; in any case they operate as a separate and also well-regarded maker of pro audio gear.

If you think power is the be-all and end-all, for $1360, this QSC RMX-5050 (http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/rmx/rmx5050.htm) will deliver a mind-numbing 1600 wpc into 4 ohms, both channels driven, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, with only 0.1% THD.  Or if you can kick it up to $3k, (about half the price of Harry's Pass Labs X250, 250 wpc), the QSC PowerLight 380 (http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/powerlight3/powerlight3.htm) will punch 2000 wpc into 4 ohms or 4000 wpc into 2 ohms.  :o

I do not need any more power amps since I already have seven at my house and three of them are over 200 watts/ch, plenty for listening to exclusively classical music. Conrad Johnson makes pretty good amps as well ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 17, 2009, 06:24:56 PM
I do not need any more power amps since I already have seven at my house and three of them are over 200 watts/ch, plenty for listening to exclusively classical music. Conrad Johnson makes pretty good amps as well ...

Hah!  Don't get me wrong: I wasn't recommending the QSC amps.  And yes indeed, CJ makes some very fine amps and preamps.  My observation regarding the SF - CJ combo is that the CJ can't exploit the fully-balanced design of the SF -- not that that is likely to make much difference.

By the way, what tubes are you using in your Sonic Frontiers Line 1?  I rolled the standard Sovtek 6922 for these vintage Amperex 'PQ' (in the gain positions only).  The difference was a subtle but agreeable increase in warmth and perceived depth of soundstage.

(http://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/AmperexPQ.JPG)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 17, 2009, 07:58:36 PM
What are "spikes"?
I fast-read this, and it's not too far off, even if it's got an open ended "everythng is possible" conclusion. It's hifi, after all:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/speaker-spikes-and-cones-2013-what2019s-the-point
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 17, 2009, 10:42:06 PM
Really nice, Harry.  I'm eating my heart out.  But pertaining to your X250, drogulus would but just as happy with the US$300 QSC GX3 professional amp below since it's a properly designed amp and just as powerful.

By the way, those speakers of yours you pictured earlier in the thread, are they Avalon Eidolons or Indras?  Whichever, I'm eating my heart out here too, though my preference might run to Soundlabs or maybe Apogee in the lofty price range.

The Avalon's Ceramique. I can say that with the Nordost Valhalla cabling and interlinks, this is the best set I ever had, and will not part from it whatever.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 18, 2009, 02:58:40 AM
The Avalon's Ceramique. I can say that with the Nordost Valhalla cabling and interlinks, this is the best set I ever had, and will not part from it whatever.

Fabulous!  No doubt about that.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on May 18, 2009, 03:20:33 AM
Fabulous!  No doubt about that.

Your link to your equipment is not working, at least I see nothing!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 18, 2009, 03:33:40 AM
Your link to your equipment is not working, at least I see nothing!

Neither do I!

Thanks for pointing this out.  It's worked before so I'll have to look for the problem.  Meanwhile, if you're interested, here's my setup ...

(See my link in my signature)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 18, 2009, 04:06:21 AM
My gear. Click on picture to enlarge.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 18, 2009, 04:14:49 AM
My gear. Click on picture to enlarge.

Very interesting system.  I was surprised to see the non-computer inputs to the Squeezebox: I'd never thought of that.  :D

[EDIT] Oh, I see: not a Squeezbox but the Transporter.  Now it makes more sense to me.  Still an interesting system though.  You have no aversion to things digital: good for you.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 18, 2009, 05:30:22 PM
Neither do I!

Thanks for pointing this out.  It's worked before so I'll have to look for the problem.  Meanwhile, if you're interested, here's my setup ...

(http://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/StereoDiagram8a.jpg)

Nice Visio layout?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 19, 2009, 04:09:02 AM
Nice Visio layout?

Yes, done in Visio.  BTW, my signature link is back in operation.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 29, 2009, 11:30:21 AM
I was finding the NHT Xds rather hard sounding, so I got my big old Dunlavy SC-IIIs out of the back room.  

(http://pic6.audiogon.com/i/a/f/1238461392.jpg)

I've never had a "proper" amp for them.  Dunlavy suggests > 100 Watts;  I've been using a 60W Bryston B-60.  So I found a Bryston 3B-SST dealer demo on Audiogon:

(http://www.audioadvisor.com/images/BY3BSST_INT.jpg)

150W into 8 Ohms, with balanced as well as single-ended connections.  I'm hoping it mates well with my BAT pre.  It was "priced to sell" because of a nick on the chassis, but who is going to see it down at the bottom of the rack.  (I was originally leaning toward the Parasound A23, but I read complaints about reliability.)

The Dunlavys are still a tight fit in my condo since they each need to be 10' (3 m) or more from the listener, and I have limited floorspace in my living room.  These don't go below 50Hz despite their size, and I still have an in-room frequency dip from 80-125 Hz to try to work out.  I'm not sure what I'd replace them with if I did.  Vandersteens, maybe.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 29, 2009, 04:46:34 PM
I was finding the NHT Xds rather hard sounding, so I got my big old Dunlavy SC-IIIs out of the back room.  

(http://pic6.audiogon.com/i/a/f/1238461392.jpg)

I've never had a "proper" amp for them.  Dunlavy suggests > 100 Watts;  I've been using a 60W Bryston B-60.  So I found a Bryston 3B-SST dealer demo on Audiogon:

(http://www.audioadvisor.com/images/BY3BSST_INT.jpg)

150W into 8 Ohms, with balanced as well as single-ended connections.  I'm hoping it mates well with my BAT pre.  It was "priced to sell" because of a nick on the chassis, but who is going to see it down at the bottom of the rack.  (I was originally leaning toward the Parasound A23, but I read complaints about reliability.)

The Dunlavys are still a tight fit in my condo since they each need to be 10' (3 m) or more from the listener, and I have limited floorspace in my living room.  These don't go below 50Hz despite their size, and I still have an in-room frequency dip from 80-125 Hz to try to work out.  I'm not sure what I'd replace them with if I did.  Vandersteens, maybe.

Dunlavy is no longer in business?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 29, 2009, 05:38:07 PM
Dunlavy is no longer in business?

John Dunlavy, who died in 2007, retired and sold the business in 2001 to someone who apparently had no idea how to run it.   The company closed in 2002. 

Doing some more sound pressure measurements with the SC-IIIs in my room, I'm actually doing OK between 80-200 Hz, but I have a big resonance at 63Hz on the right, and bass falls off under 80 Hz on the left, probably because the ceiling slopes from 11' to 19'.  I'm thinking of getting a Behringer 2496 digital crossover to cut off everything under 80Hz and send it to my NHT subwoofer, but getting the phases right may be tricky.

(http://www.behringer.com/EN/images/products/DCX2496_P0036_Perspective_web.jpg)
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DCX2496.aspx
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 29, 2009, 09:07:23 PM
 :)
I use one of those as crossover and EQ for my subs.
Have you considered a Helmholz resonator or two? Bass resonance-gobbling stuff, such devices.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 30, 2009, 07:58:25 AM
:)
I use one of those as crossover and EQ for my subs.
Have you considered a Helmholz resonator or two? Bass resonance-gobbling stuff, such devices.

I have a couple of Echobuster quarter rounds, but I haven't tried one behind the right speaker (there isn't really a corner, where'd you typically put one of these, in that area).  

(http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/bustedbig.jpg)

Would a Hemholtz resonator work in the 63Hz range?  (Well, I guess you make them the right size if you make them yourself.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 30, 2009, 08:01:33 AM
Any serious upgrades are now on hold until my stock portfolios have staged a more permanent rebound.  For now, only new CD purchases, which are just incremental expenses.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on May 30, 2009, 09:58:36 AM
Are you thinking of buying the Bose 301's new?  Or are they pre-owned?

No doubt you are aware that the audiophile consensus is that Bose stuff is over-priced junk.  But don't let that stop you if you like them though.  ;D

Buying new in the Bose 301 price range, Paradigm Atom (http://www.paradigm.com/en/paradigm/speaker_only-specification-1-1-2-4.paradigm) or PSB Alpha B1 (http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/Alpha-Series/Alpha-B1-Monitor) would be considered far better choices.

When I was an uninitiated college undergrad, I used to think highly of Bose after I heard a demo of its flagship 901 at some NY Hi-Fi show.  Bose is just a tremendous marketing machine.  While I would not call its speakers junk, they are at best a line of overpriced mid-fi speakers ...

And just about any of these names will provide higher quality sound than the Bose 301's ...

don't do Bose.

Well, I went against the grain here for the first tme ever on this board and picked up a pair of Bose 301's:

(http://members.westnet.com.au/jaarola/Bose%20301.jpg)

Now, before you tie me to a horse, wing its backside with your Colt revolver and have it drag me through a cacti riddled desert, I need to let you know that I only paid $60 (no shipping) for them.  I thought it was worth the risk at this price.  An older gentleman had them and were a gift from his son. He ended up buying a complete surround sound system from Circuit City before they went under and had no use for them.  He said he and a friend set them up once for his daughter's wedding reception and that was the only time they had ever been used.  They sound good and compliment my Wharfedales that extra umph I was missing.  I have to say though, that I agree that they are not worth the asking price of $350.  But for $60........
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 30, 2009, 02:08:28 PM
(http://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/AmperexPQ.JPG)

I saw this post on 6922s on rec.audio.high-end.  Of course, it's "just some guy on the internet", so who knows how accurate it is:

Newsgroups: rec.audio.high-end
From: Sonnova <sonn...@audiosanatorium.com>
Date: 2 May 2009 00:02:00 GMT
Subject: Re: Online Tube Providers

[quoted text snipped]

I had 4 of the 6 Electro-Harmonix 6922 (6DJ8/ECC88) tubes that I re-tubed my
trusty Audio Research SP-11MkII with go bad (gassy, noisy) over a period of
less than a year. I would NOT recommend Electro-Harmonix tubes to ANYONE.
However I have good luck with JJ/Tesla* brand from Tube Depot, who seem to be
very reliable and honest.

* If your preamp uses 6922/6DJ8/ECC88 tubes, its best NOT to buy NOS for this
tube type. The reason is because the 6DJ8 was designed originally as an RF
tube for FM front-ends. For that reason, any 6DJ8 made before about 1985 will
have no internal mechanical supports to damp-out microphonics. Because this
tube was an RF-only dual-triode, the type of internal element support needed
for hi-mu triodes for audio was deemed unnecessary in an RF application.
Compare, for instance, the mechanical structure of a NOS 6DJ8 with a 12AX7
and a modern 6DJ8 from Sovtek, Svetlana, Tesla, etc. and note the structural
differences. The new tube will resemble a 12AX7 more than it will resemble an
older 6DJ8. A NOS 6DJ8 will ring in an audio application, and a newly
manufactured tube will not.


My BAT 3iX also uses 6922s, and comes stock with some Russian jobbies.  It might be nice to have a little more depth and midrange bloom than these seem to provide.  The midrange is good but doesn't take your breath away the way that the Sylvania chrome dome 6SN7s in the Rogue Magnum 99 could (though I eventually moved on from the Rogue for other reasons).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 30, 2009, 03:50:11 PM
I saw this post on 6922s on rec.audio.high-end.  Of course, it's "just some guy on the internet", so who knows how accurate it is:
...
My BAT 3iX also uses 6922s, and comes stock with some Russian jobbies.  It might be nice to have a little more depth and midrange bloom than these seem to provide.  The midrange is good but doesn't take your breath away the way that the Sylvania chrome dome 6SN7s in the Rogue Magnum 99 could (though I eventually moved on from the Rogue for other reasons).

Thanks for those comments and your own.  The 6DJ8 are not exactly the same specfication as the 6922, so I'm not sure the relevance of his comments.  Anyway, lots of people use old 6922 tubes with no microphonic problems and you can always resort to tube stablizers..  Also I believe that the Electro Harmonics tubes are well regarded amoung current production tubes.  But opinions abound.

In any case the above pictured Amperex 6922 'PQ' have been the best performers of the six or seven different tubes I have tried.  BTW, I bought my tubes used for about US$80 the pair; they are very quite, show no sign of microphonics, and have worked reliably for a couple of years.  True NOS (new old stock) tubes (http://www.tubedepot.com/nos-6922-amp-usa.html) are rare and about 4x that price.

The are about a bazillion different 6922 & variant models that are around.  This Joe's Tube Lore (http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/joes-tubes.html#6DJ8) post at Audio Asylum is one of the best and most entertaining discussions I've seen.  You'll note that he thinks very well of the Amperex model in question, but isn't all that enthusiastic about the revered Siemens CCa.

By the way, I have a pair of what I believe to be later production, (but hopefully not counterfeit), Amperex 6922/E88CC tubes, below, these are pretty good but not nearly as good as the older, straight 6922's.

(http://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/Amperex-new1.JPG)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 30, 2009, 04:05:19 PM
Thanks for those comments and your own.  The 6DJ8 are not exactly the same specfication as the 6922, so I'm not sure the relevance of his comments.  Also I believe that the Electro Harmonics tubes are well regarded amount current production tubes.

Ah, thanks, I wasn't really picking up on the distinction.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 30, 2009, 11:45:10 PM
Would a Hemholtz resonator work in the 63Hz range?  (Well, I guess you make them the right size if you make them yourself.)
That's the lovely thing with a Helmholz. It works at it's tuning frequency. It's bass reflex without a driver.
http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles/helmholtz-resonant-absorber
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on June 23, 2009, 07:12:44 AM
This on "perfect sound" may be of interest to some on this thread:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13170.0.html
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 24, 2009, 07:10:36 AM
This on "perfect sound" may be of interest to some on this thread:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13170.0.html

     The book might be interesting. Here's the audio file from NPR:

     [mp3=200,20,0,center]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/11/2/1559968/20090622_totn_03.mp3[/mp3]
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on July 05, 2009, 03:03:11 AM
IKEA Billy works reasonably well in my (admittedly not very tidy) music room.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa264/oddryd/IMAGE_008.jpg)

Oops, I've moved this to the right thread...

There is no chance a set up like this will work in my house due to the amount of furniture my wife and I have.  You have a CJ amp just like mine.  Is it the MF2500A?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on July 05, 2009, 03:13:48 AM
There is no chance a set up like this will work in my house due to the amount of furniture my wife and I have.  You have a CJ amp just like mine.  Is it the MF2500A?
Yep. With a Wadia 302 and Dali Euphonia MS5s. The key is to have a dedicated room (or no wife) - though I have Vienna Beethovens in the living room (and a wife). The small speaker you see is one of a pair of twoway Ushers bound for my summer cottage.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 01, 2009, 02:39:25 AM
Check out this interesting link on open-reel decks, I posted mine there not long ago (http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=188529&goto=newpost)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 09, 2009, 12:46:13 AM
For some reason I can't get this page 27 of this thread with Opera or Fifefox. Seems like I can post thou...  :P
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 09, 2009, 04:45:54 AM
Same here with Firefox.
Page 26 fine, 27 is not.

I'm contemplating on

1) Follow the Linkwitz lead and sell my last pair of box loudspeakers.
2) Go PC-based for crossovers, with an 8ch DAC.

We'll see. Good Siegfried has more to him than a great name.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 09, 2009, 05:26:09 AM
PP 25 of this thread is a blackhole?   ???           
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 09, 2009, 05:28:45 AM
That's the lovely thing with a Helmholz. It works at it's tuning frequency. It's bass reflex without a driver.
http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles/helmholtz-resonant-absorber


The thread lists pp 27 is available but when I clicked on the page, it came up blank ...    ???
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 09, 2009, 05:59:45 PM
I have the same problem with pg.27. Posting now but no clue if anything will come of it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on August 11, 2009, 11:42:46 AM
The posts from the black hole.

July 05, 2009, 07:13:48 AM:
Quote from: Erato
Quote from: Coopmv on July 05, 2009, 07:03:11 AM
"There is no chance a set up like this will work in my house due to the amount of furniture my wife and I have.  You have a CJ amp just like mine.  Is it the MF2500A?"

Yep. With a Wadia 302 and Dali Euphonia MS5s. The key is to have a dedicated room (or no wife) - though I have Vienna Beethovens in the living room (and a wife). The small speaker you see is one of a pair of twoway Ushers bound for my summer cottage.

August 01, 2009, 06:39:25 AM
Quote from: Coopmv
Check out this interesting link on open-reel decks, I posted mine there not long ago (http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=188529&goto=newpost)

August 08, 2009, 02:10:40 PM
Quote from: Coopmv
A Krell integrated amp at $2,500 sounds mighty attractive, until I look at the back panel - made in China.  Even a proud high-end audio equipment maker based in CT like Krell has to move some of its manufacturing to China, it is just discouraging.  Question is what Krell can do with the legendary Chinese corners-cutting manufacturing that will end up hurting its image?
(http://www.musicdirect.com/shared/images/products/large/s-300i_front-view.jpg)

(http://www.musicdirect.com/shared/images/products/large/S-300i_Rear-View.jpg)
 
Sharper picture ...

August 09, 2009, 01:41:01 AM
Quote from: Daverz
New speakers below, Vandersteen Quatros, in my living room.  I still have the NHT Xds, and may recycle them as rear channel speakers.

August 09, 2009, 04:46:13 AM
Quote from: 71dB
For some reason I can't get this page 27 of this thread with Opera or Fifefox. Seems like I can post thou...  :P

August 09, 2009, 08:45:54 AM
Quote from: Valentino
Same here with Firefox.
Page 26 fine, 27 is not.

I'm contemplating on

1) Follow the Linkwitz lead and sell my last pair of box loudspeakers.
2) Go PC-based for crossovers, with an 8ch DAC.

We'll see. Good Siegfried has more to him than a great name.

August 09, 2009, 09:26:09 AM
Quote from: Coopmv
PP 25 of this thread is a blackhole?   ???  

August 09, 2009, 09:28:45 AM
Quote from: Coopmv
Quote from: Valentino on May 31, 2009, 03:45:10 AM
"That's the lovely thing with a Helmholz. It works at it's tuning frequency. It's bass reflex without a driver.
http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles/helmholtz-resonant-absorber"



The thread lists pp 27 is available but when I clicked on the page, it came up blank ...    ???

August 09, 2009, 01:39:18 PM
Quote from: Daverz
Quote from: Coopmv on May 29, 2009, 08:46:34 PM
"Dunlavy is no longer in business?"


Never could find an arrangement for them in my new place that would really let them sing.   I guess I'll sell them eventually.

August 09, 2009, 09:59:45 PM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian

I have the same problem with pg.27. Posting now but no clue if anything will come of it.


[NOTE FROM MODERATOR: I've tinkered a bit more with the thread and managed to delete the post which the forum software couldn't handle (it couldn't have been a fault of the post itself, I think it was just something random, overheating or whatever ;D ;D) - it's now in red  above. Sorry for the crude method (deleting a post) but, hey, the thread works again! Unfortunately, my method was trial-by-error and the Daverz post now in blue above was a casualty. Sorry for that. Enjoy the revived thread. Cheers, Maciek]
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on August 11, 2009, 11:46:00 AM
yeah sure thing, you do that, and I'll immediately repeat what you did but with my long post a few times and that should get us back out of the p27 hole. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on August 11, 2009, 11:50:29 AM
I suspect someone posted a hu-uge picture of his hu-uge audio system, with cables as thick as python snakes and speakers like refrigerators on page 27 and it just snapped the GMG-server (if there is such a thing).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 11, 2009, 11:55:02 AM
The GMG-server runs off an audiophile-grade power cable (if it ain't a cable, it aint audiophile-grade). What do you expect?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 11, 2009, 12:37:49 PM
At least I can now read what I posted on pp 27.  I noticed besides my post, a few other posts have gone into that blackhole as well ...    :o
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 13, 2009, 01:32:49 PM
No python snakes in my system, I use 2 runs of 14 AWG zipcord per side (but pretty blue zipcord!)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 03:54:07 AM
Would you care to repeat what those loudspeakers are, Daverz?
A view to a Michell is always a good one, btw.

I had hifi-visitors in June, and they took some pictures:

(http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=35923.0;attach=91485;image) (http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=35923.0;attach=91486;image)

But I might sell this off and start to use open baffle dipoles instead, as mentioned.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Herman on August 14, 2009, 06:01:32 AM
Looks nice, Valentino. Simple and pleasant. Lots of light.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 08:27:05 AM
Thanks. Scandinavian style, you know.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 14, 2009, 09:55:43 AM
Would you care to repeat what those loudspeakers are, Daverz?

They're Vandersteen Quatros.  You may be able to make out the outline of the tweeter, midrange, and woofer under the fabric.  There is a powered subwoofer in the base with two downfiring 8 inch drivers.  On the back you can see the 11 band bass equalizer, contour and level controls for the subwoofer.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on August 14, 2009, 10:55:36 AM
Quote
A Krell integrated amp at $2,500 sounds mighty attractive, until I look at the back panel - made in China.  Even a proud high-end audio equipment maker based in CT like Krell has to move some of its manufacturing to China, it is just discouraging.  Question is what Krell can do with the legendary Chinese corners-cutting manufacturing that will end up hurting its image?

So pessimistic.  Look on the bright side.  That Chinese manufacturer will probably steal the design and manufacturer the exact same amplifier with a different face plate.  By next year it will be at BestBuy for $129.99 plus tax.   ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 11:43:52 AM
So pessimistic.  Look on the bright side.  That Chinese manufacturer will probably steal the design and manufacturer the exact same amplifier with a different face plate.  By next year it will be at BestBuy for $129.99 plus tax.   ;D

I have zero interests in bootleg products. 

I just set up a vintage stereo system in the guest room to open up the upstairs music room a bit since three stereo systems were crammed into that room.  This vintage system has the following components.

Harman Kardon hk825 preamp
Tandberg 3003 amp
Carver TX2 tuner
Sony CA8ES CD changer
Yamaha KX-R730 cassette deck
KLH Premier 81

These are excellent American, Norwegian and Japanese made equipments.  The Norwegian-made Tandberg amp is almost 30-year old but it still sounds great.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 12:00:43 PM
I had a 3003 once. Pretty well packed it was.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 12:05:51 PM
I had a 3003 once. Pretty well packed it was.


I miss Tandberg and wish it was still around ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 12:28:37 PM
You can blame the Norwegian government. Tandberg was forced to join up with struggling Radionette, Out of the ashes (Vebjørn Tandberg committed suicide) came the 3000-series, and they were wonderful but way to expensive to produce and then death proper.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on August 14, 2009, 12:29:46 PM
These are excellent American, Norwegian and Japanese made equipments.  The Norwegian-made Tandberg amp is almost 30-year old but it still sounds great.

Good amps age well.  My old NAD 1155/2200 pair still running well (had to lube the power relays) and I realize it is now upwards of 20 years old. 

My first surround sound amp was an NAD, which I was surprised to see was made in China.  It was dead within 18 months.  Now using a Sony ES series that I got used off ebay for the surround sound rig and it is providing great satisfaction.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 12:36:17 PM
You can blame the Norwegian government. Tandberg was forced to join up with struggling Radionette, Out of the ashes (Vebjørn Tandberg committed suicide) came the 3000-series, and they were wonderful but way to expensive to produce and then death proper.
 

I still have my Tandberg TD 20A and TCD 330.

(http://www.audio-extasa.eu/imagemagic.php?img=images/Tandberg%20TCD%20330%20Tape%20Deck%200c.JPG&w=768&h=512&page=popup)



Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 12:46:15 PM
Good amps age well.  My old NAD 1155/2200 pair still running well (had to lube the power relays) and I realize it is now upwards of 20 years old. 

My first surround sound amp was an NAD, which I was surprised to see was made in China.  It was dead within 18 months.  Now using a Sony ES series that I got used off ebay for the surround sound rig and it is providing great satisfaction.



I still have my NAD 2200, the Power Envelope amp.  It worked just fine when I had it hooked up over a year ago.  The problem with Chinese-made gears is the relentless corners-cutting has made most of the equipments made there unreliable.  Buying a shirt made there is totally different than buying a piece of audio equipment that costs you hundreds of dollars and these days, even thousands of dollars as NAD is pretty much making all its equipments in China now, even the latest Master Series that starts at $1800 and up.  The last piece of NAD gear I bought was the SilverLine S500i CD Player.  The CDP was made in Denmark.  I have stopped buying NAD gears altogether and moved further upscale.  My 2 amps are both Conrad-Johnson.  I may spring for a Mac at some point. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 12:48:04 PM
You can blame the Norwegian government. Tandberg was forced to join up with struggling Radionette, Out of the ashes (Vebjørn Tandberg committed suicide) came the 3000-series, and they were wonderful but way to expensive to produce and then death proper.

 :(   Is Electrocompaniet still around?  BTW, LM Ericsson bought out whatever remained of Tandberg, right?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on August 14, 2009, 01:15:16 PM
I still have my NAD 2200, the Power Envelope amp.  It worked just fine when I had it hooked up over a year ago.  The problem with Chinese-made gears is the relentless corners-cutting has made most of the equipments made there unreliable.  Buying a shirt made there is totally different than buying a piece of audio equipment that costs you hundreds of dollars and these days, even thousands of dollars as NAD is pretty much making all its equipments in China now, even the latest Master Series that starts at $1800 and up.  The last piece of NAD gear I bought was the SilverLine S500i CD Player.  The CDP was made in Denmark.  I have stopped buying NAD gears altogether and moved further upscale.  My 2 amps are both Conrad-Johnson.  I may spring for a Mac at some point.  

I will also never buy another piece of NAD equipment as long as I live.  I'm wondering what they expect to gain by moving their manufacturing to China.

In any case, I noticed that NAD's web site has a "guestbook."  I've posted a polite message describing my experience, just out of curiosity to see if it actually appears there.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 01:26:25 PM
I will also never buy another piece of NAD equipment as long as I live.  I'm wondering what they expect to gain by moving their manufacturing to China.


You had to be quite angry about throwing hundreds of dollars away when the made-in-China NAD surround receiver lasted only 18 months.  The current NAD management is ruining the brand for sure.  When I brought up the relentless corners cutting and chronic reliability issues for made-in-China audio equipments at another forum, I was roundly attacked as xenophobic and a China-hater.  I am certainly not about to make any expensive mistake like buying a made-in-China $2500 Krell Integrated amp.  What I cannot understand is why Krell cannot make a profit on a $2500 integrated amp?   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 01:43:43 PM
I will also never buy another piece of NAD equipment as long as I live.  I'm wondering what they expect to gain by moving their manufacturing to China.

In any case, I noticed that NAD's web site has a "guestbook."  I've posted a polite message describing my experience, just out of curiosity to see if it actually appears there.



Let me share my experience.  When I found out NAD is making all its equipments in China, I posted a polite message in that NAD guestbook that I was quite disappointed that NAD's high-end are no longer made in a western country like Denmark, the message was deleted.  That episode hardened my resolve that I would never buy another piece of NAD equipments after having been an owner of the following components since 1986.

NAD 2200
NAD 2100
NAD 1700
NAD 218 THX
NAD 116
NAD 118
NAD S500i
NAD PP1

I also gave away an NAD CD Player to my sister.  I think it was NAD 520.  The NAD 218 THX is the only component that was made in China (I still own all of the above).  At the time, I was told by the retailer (SoundSeller in WI) that the model was made in a few different countries.  Mine just happened to have been made in China.  I accepted that with my antenna up and that was back in 99.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on August 14, 2009, 01:56:18 PM
You had to be quite angry about throwing hundreds of dollars away when the made-in-China NAD surround receiver lasted only 18 months.  The current NAD management is ruining the brand for sure.  When I brought up the relentless corners cutting and chronic reliability issues for made-in-China audio equipments at another forum, I was roundly attacked as xenophobic and a China-hater.  I am certainly not about to make any expensive mistake like buying a made-in-China $2500 Krell Integrated amp.  What I cannot understand is why Krell cannot make a profit on a $2500 integrated amp?  

What?  Surely you understand that capitalism isn't just about making a profit, it's about the highest possible profit.

However being made in China doesn't mean reducing quality necessarily, (as I explained the other day).  It depends on the maker, (NAD, Krell, whoever), and to what extent they enforce quality control.  Cambridge Audio, as I hear own and operate their own factory there.  Otherwise Chinese builders will make whatever you ask them to, and if you insist on high quality (and enforce it through QA), you'll get it.  It's certainly possible given that wages there are 10 cents on the dollar versus the U.S.

By the way, I have an Internet acquaintance who just bought the Krell S-300i; I'll pass on his impressions soon.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 02:39:10 PM
What?  Surely you understand that capitalism isn't just about making a profit, it's about the highest possible profit.

However being made in China doesn't mean reducing quality necessarily, (as I explained the other day).  It depends on the maker, (NAD, Krell, whoever), and to what extent they enforce quality control.  Cambridge Audio, as I hear own and operate their own factory there.  Otherwise Chinese builders will make whatever you ask them to, and if you insist on high quality (and enforce it through QA), you'll get it.  It's certainly possible given that wages there are 10 cents on the dollar versus the U.S.

By the way, I have an Internet acquaintance who just bought the Krell S-300i; I'll pass on his impressions soon.
 

I think it is far easier for Krell to enforce its quality than it is for NAD since the latter is the volume producer.  NAD used to have excellent quality across the board and it has always manufactured both the classic line and the premium line with the premium line usually made in the UK, Japan or Denmark while the classic line generally made in Singapore, Taiwan or Korea.  This was true until about 15 years ago. 

I fully understand your argument since I have worked in the financial industry for over 20 years.  Maximizing profits is the objective for every company.  But when a company has its premium products made in China and prices do not come down, there is a serious perception issue.  I believe MB and BMW both manufacture in China but the cars are ONLY for the Chinese domestic market, not for exports into the US.

Please do and post about the Krell S-300i.  I wonder if Krell, a CT-based company, will end up regretting having made this move?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on August 14, 2009, 06:43:28 PM
What?  Surely you understand that capitalism isn't just about making a profit, it's about the highest possible profit.

I don't think driving customers off is consistent with the highest possible profit.  When I got that made-in-China amp (which was obviously of poor quality even before it died) I had never purchased a non-NAD.  I replaced it with a $199 Sony that was functionally superior in every respect and have now replaced it with a nicer Sony ES amp, which also works beautifully.  They've never gotten another dollar out of me since, and I never miss the opportunity to tell anyone remotely considering any audio equipment to avoid NAD at all costs.  I don't consider that astute capitalism.



Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 08:56:36 PM
Is Electrocompaniet still around?

Yeah. Per Abrahamsen is out after bankrupcy (and that's good for both sound* and build quality), but the brand is growing and the glossy highend line is still made in Norway. New Electrocompaniet have also aquired Dynamic Precision, which has old Tandberg engineers on board. http://www.electrocompaniet.com/

Per Abrahamsen has a new brand: http://www.abrahamsenaudio.com/

*Per Abrahamsen had/has this idea that amplifiers made for playing back recorded music should have a sound. Nuff said.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 14, 2009, 10:15:55 PM
New toy, a Squeezebox Duet.  The receiver is the little black box on the left.  I have it hook hooked with a coaxial digital cable to my Cambridge Audio 840C.  It may already be worth it for just internet radio stations, which gives me some nice low dynamic range music to play at night.  Strings sound pretty bad at 128kbps, though.

The plan, however, is to put a FLAC music library in the loft, if the Antec PC case I bought is quiet enough.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 10:24:36 PM
I'm a Logitech junkie myself. I use the Transporter as preamplifier. RIAA output is digitized by a RME ADI-2 and fed into one of the Transporter's SPDIF inputs.

Your Vandersteens are quite interesting, Daverz. I very much like that they have a proper bass EQ. I use that myself; no chance of getting a flat in-room response below say 200Hz in a box speaker without EQ.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 15, 2009, 12:29:58 AM
I'm a Logitech junkie myself.

I kinda knew this before, but it's going to be pretty challenging to tag 2500 or so CDs sensibly.  The slimdevices wiki has some recommendations. (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Beginners_Guide_To_Classical)

Quote
I use the Transporter as preamplifier.  RIAA output is digitized by a RME ADI-2 and fed into one of the Transporter's SPDIF inputs.

Oh, wow, you're really dedicated.  :D

Quote
Your Vandersteens are quite interesting, Daverz. I very much like that they have a proper bass EQ. I use that myself; no chance of getting a flat in-room response below say 200Hz in a box speaker without EQ.

The bass EQ is only up to 125 Hz.  The Vandersteen procedure involves trying to reduce nulls and peaks, but not trying to completely smooth them out.  I've never really had full range speakers, at least full range in this room.  The NHT Xds had a big null at about 40Hz, so I was missing a lot of stuff going on in the low bass.  Even without EQ, the Vandys have no problem down to 30Hz.  The Vandy's bass is quite startling on some CDs, e.g. The Papa Jarvi recording of the Sibelius 4 Legends on Bis has low bass I never heard before.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 15, 2009, 01:36:49 AM
My bass Eq stops about there to. I only EQ my subs, and I've found that I cannot boost any nulls more than 3dB while peaks can be reduced almost indefinetely to yield a subjectively flat response. I guess Vandersteen have come to similar conclusions.
My main main speakers are passive, and the system can shake my home's foundations. Flat to 16Hz.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 02:55:04 AM
Yeah. Per Abrahamsen is out after bankrupcy (and that's good for both sound* and build quality), but the brand is growing and the glossy highend line is still made in Norway. New Electrocompaniet have also aquired Dynamic Precision, which has old Tandberg engineers on board. http://www.electrocompaniet.com/

Per Abrahamsen has a new brand: http://www.abrahamsenaudio.com/

*Per Abrahamsen had/has this idea that amplifiers made for playing back recorded music should have a sound. Nuff said.

Valentino,  Thanks for the link to Electrocompaniet, which I just bookmarked.  Electrocompaniet products were barely available in the US prior to this reorg of its US distributorship.  The Norwegian audio equipments are beautiful, just like many Norwegian women.  That is why I am hanging onto my 7 Tandberg components for the long haul.  How do Norwegians buy their audio equipments these days, mainly on the web?  When I last visited Oslo in 93, I think I noticed only one brick-and-mortar audio store.  I bought a wallet in Oslo which I am still using.   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 03:04:52 AM
I don't think driving customers off is consistent with the highest possible profit.  When I got that made-in-China amp (which was obviously of poor quality even before it died) I had never purchased a non-NAD.  I replaced it with a $199 Sony that was functionally superior in every respect and have now replaced it with a nicer Sony ES amp, which also works beautifully.  They've never gotten another dollar out of me since, and I never miss the opportunity to tell anyone remotely considering any audio equipment to avoid NAD at all costs.  I don't consider that astute capitalism.





Scarpia,  You are absolutely correct.  Practicing capitalism to the nth degree is not about driving loyal customers like you and me away.  My understanding is NAD is on its third owner or something like that.  It is no longer the same company that was founded back in the late 70's.  Apparently, having only its Classic line made in China is not enough and I will not buy its Master Series.   

I love my CJ amps and its customer service is first-rate.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on August 15, 2009, 04:05:34 AM
The "China debate" is quite tiresome. For companies like Krell, NAD, or Thiel, the point is hardly about "maximizing" profits. It's about sheer survival.
If quality controls are not working properly, then of course this is just cause for being irate. But the simplistic assertion of "[several parts] made/assembled in China = crap" does smack of ignorance, if not outright engineering-racism. [Aside, the Burr-Brown DAC chips remains the same, no matter the color of the hands placing it on the platine.]

Though, if the 'Chinese stench' dost offend, there are products in the next higher price category that are still made in England, Denmark, or Kentucky.

I, for one, have sampled speakers for several hours again (I had already auditioned B&W's CM5 and Vienna Accoustics "Haydn Grand" (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg338545.html#msg338545)) and my favorite, by far, was a China made (Kentucky-certified) monitor the detail and precision of which was astounding.

Thiel SCS4:
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadgethd.com/media/2008/12/20081207-thielscs4-preview.jpg)

Utterly unforgiving, exposing everything that's great (or bad) about a recording. Not a 'blender' at all -- it's like having glasses that make you see your wife in High Definition every morning... rather than gently glossing over her with a touch of rosé gauze. With some non-classical music, it sounded a little stiff... bit like a classical customer trying to look hip at a reggae concert. But every other speaker sounded veiled (or puny) compared to it. Attacks are super crisp, bass smallish but defined and immediate.

The first comparison was a bit unfair; Dynaudio's 110 A (active speaker -- from beautiful Denmark, btw.) just couldn't match the naturalness and precision and its plus on the bass volume was bought at a decrease in definition.
 
(http://common.dealerscope.com/img/photos/biz/ds/2009/03/dynaudio110a.jpg)


The second candidate, the Revel Perform/a M22 was a much closer match, because its strengths of integration and excellent blend of neutrality and beauty. Not beautification like the "constant flatterer" B&W CM5, but less bent on making sure that absolutely no varnish was on the music that came out. A more practical speaker, I would say, for those who listen intently and to a wide range of music... but not for those who wish to have a precision tool.

(http://downloads.revelspeakers.com/imagelibrary/M22top_cherry_lo.jpg)

Next I'll try the Piega C2 and the Klipsch Palladium against the Thiel (not that I can likely afford either of them), maybe throwing in a Focal Electra 1007 S for comparison.

Too bad the price for the Thiel almost doubles for Europeans. $2000,- (~Euro 1400,-) vs. Euro 2400,- leaves a mental sting in the pocket.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 15, 2009, 04:13:47 AM
My bass Eq stops about there to. I only EQ my subs, and I've found that I cannot boost any nulls more than 3dB while peaks can be reduced almost indefinetely to yield a subjectively flat response. I guess Vandersteen have come to similar conclusions.

Here's the procedure from the manual:

4. [...] Adjust the volume up or down until two thirds of the tracks read
70dB or higher and one third of the tracks are 70dB or
lower.  This is your reference volume do not adjust
until this entire calibration is complete for both  speakers.
 
5. Play track one through eleven and adjust each band to
25% of the meter reading noted in step # 4. 
[...]
Note: Do not try to adjust every peak or dip all the way
       to 0 dB.  Our studies have shown  that adjusting all the   
       peak and dips to 0dB can cause a non-musical sound
       with audible equalization effects.  Your left speaker is 
       now properly compensated for the room.

=====
They use an older model Radio Shack SPL meter for this.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on August 15, 2009, 06:18:31 AM
The "China debate" is quite tiresome. For companies like Krell, NAD, or Thiel, the point is hardly about "maximizing" profits. It's about sheer survival.
...

The "maximizing profits" verus "sheer survival" distinction is overly fine.  In fact it's a continuum.

I'm not buying another NAD, though, because I don't like the sound.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 06:22:55 AM
The "maximizing profits" verus "sheer survival" distinction is overly fine.  In fact it's a continuum.

I'm not buying another NAD, though, because I don't like the sound.

Is NAD still a Canadian company?  Isn't PSB an NAD's sister company now?  I have had a pair of PSB Image 2B's for almost ten years.  They are nice bookshelf speakers made in Canada.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 15, 2009, 07:12:14 AM
What is all this anti NAD talk about? I am a NAD fan.  0:)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 07:15:49 AM
What is all this anti NAD talk about? I am a NAD fan.  0:)


Don't get me wrong, I love the sound of the old NAD equipments.  I have no experience with the newer NAD, which I do not own.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on August 15, 2009, 07:23:49 AM
What is all this anti NAD talk about? I am a NAD fan.  0:)

Looks like there's a chink in the reputational armor of NAD.  ::)

An audiophile friend of mine is absolutely delighted with their Masters Series.

But in that price range, I wonder if NAD's usual advantageous price/quality ratio isn't used up...
you can get Marantz and Accuphase products, or a T+A power plant for that price, and those
pieces keep their value on the used markets much better. (For whatever that says about their
[perceived] quality.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 07:29:24 AM
No doubt, there is a pricing issue with the NAD Master Series.  If the products were made in Japan or Denmark, at least they can be sold on snob appeal.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on August 15, 2009, 07:54:14 AM
The "China debate" is quite tiresome. For companies like Krell, NAD, or Thiel, the point is hardly about "maximizing" profits. It's about sheer survival.
If quality controls are not working properly, then of course this is just cause for being irate. But the simplistic assertion of "[several parts] made/assembled in China = crap" does smack of ignorance, if not outright engineering-racism. [Aside, the Burr-Brown DAC chips remains the same, no matter the color of the hands placing it on the platine.]

Though, if the 'Chinese stench' dost offend, there are products in the next higher price category that are still made in England, Denmark, or Kentucky.

The knee-jerk accusations of racism are quite tiresome and smack of an ignoramus.  Many of the old-school NAD products were made in Asia and were assembled by hands of the same color.  The issue is that the PRC is the wild-west of uncontrolled opportunism where intellectual property laws are impossible to enforce.  It is a place were bootleg cars are sold.  (Both Volkswagen and Chevrolet opened Chinese plants, to have the plans stolen and factories set up to manufacture the same cars under different names).   If an amp is going to sell for $3000, I don't see why it must be assembled with 10 cent per hour labor, or in a place where it is difficult to maintain proper oversight and quality control.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 15, 2009, 07:57:56 AM
Don't get me wrong, I love the sound of the old NAD equipments.  I have no experience with the newer NAD, which I do not own.

What is old and what is new? My first amplifier was NAD 302 I bought back in 1993. It is still working perfectly. I bougth NAD T762 AV-amplifier in 2003. It is extremely powerful. Awesome precise bass. Sound quality is very good for an AV-amplifier.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on August 15, 2009, 08:05:03 AM
Is NAD still a Canadian company?  Isn't PSB an NAD's sister company now?  I have had a pair of PSB Image 2B's for almost ten years.  They are nice bookshelf speakers made in Canada.

Yes, both NAD and PSB are owned by Lenbrook Corp., a Canadian company who also distributes other makers' products in Canada and in the U.S.  However most PSB models, like NAD electronics, are now made in China.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 08:05:45 AM
The knee-jerk accusations of racism are quite tiresome and smack of an ignoramus.  Many of the old-school NAD products were made in Asia and were assembled by hands of the same color.  The issue is that the PRC is the wild-west of uncontrolled opportunism where intellectual property laws are impossible to enforce.  It is a place were bootleg cars are sold.  (Both Volkswagen and Chevrolet opened Chinese plants, to have the plans stolen and factories set up to manufacture the same cars under different names).   If an amp is going to sell for $3000, I don't see why it must be assembled with 10 cent per hour labor, or in a place where it is difficult to maintain proper oversight and quality control.

 

Scarpia,

Indeed, a number of NAD components I have truly enjoyed over the years were made in Japan (NAD2200 and NAD 1700) and Singapore (NAD 116).  
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 08:11:26 AM
What is old and what is new? My first amplifier was NAD 302 I bought back in 1993. It is still working perfectly. I bougth NAD T762 AV-amplifier in 2003. It is extremely powerful. Awesome precise bass. Sound quality is very good for an AV-amplifier.

The only NAD component I have bought after 2000 was the Danish-made SilverLine S500i CD Player (see photo).  My NAD 116 and 218 THX were bought in 99 while the British-made NAD118 was purchased in 2000 or 2001.

(http://www.hifi.nl/gfx/nads500i_11_08072003.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 08:27:34 AM
Yes, both NAD and PSB are owned by Lenbrook Corp., a Canadian company who also distributes other makers' products in Canada and in the U.S.  However most PSB models, like NAD electronics, are now made in China.
 

I am quite happy with my Canadian-made PSB's.     :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 15, 2009, 08:31:28 AM
What I like about NAD is innovations. Recently NAD has been developping digital amplifier technology with Diodes Zetex Semiconductor. The result is M2 stereo amplifier with stunning performance and according to NAD, musical sound that rivals any analog amplifier in the world. Feedback has been a huge problem in digital amplifiers but here these problem have been eliminated with innovative engineering. These advances open doors to possibilities unthinkable in analog amplifiers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 08:36:32 AM
What I like about NAD is innovations. Recently NAD has been developping digital amplifier technology with Diodes Zetex Semiconductor. The result is M2 stereo amplifier with stunning performance and according to NAD, musical sound that rivals any analog amplifier in the world. Feedback has been a huge problem in digital amplifiers but here these problem have been eliminated with innovative engineering. These advances open doors to possibilities unthinkable in analog amplifiers.

I think this is what you are referring to.  I will wait a bit before I make the leap for a digital amp.  In fact, I have been thinking about making a great leap backward - to get a tube amp.  Perhaps the Mac 275?

NAD M2 Direct Digital Amplifier (http://nadelectronics.com/products/masters-series/M2-Direct-Digital-Amplifier)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 15, 2009, 08:36:59 AM
The only NAD component I have bought after 2000 was the Danish-made SilverLine S500i CD Player (see photo).  My NAD 116 and 218 THX were bought in 99 while the British-made NAD118 was purchased in 2000 or 2001.

(http://www.hifi.nl/gfx/nads500i_11_08072003.jpg)

That's hell of a selection!  8) If I remember right, the S500i CD Player was damn expensive!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 08:40:06 AM
That's hell of a selection!  8) If I remember right, the S500i CD Player was damn expensive!

$1600 USD.  It might have been even more expensive in Europe.  It has a great drive system and I just may get an outboard DAC to bolster the SQ.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 15, 2009, 09:16:43 AM
$1600!  :o

I think this is what you are referring to.  I will wait a bit before I make the leap for a digital amp.  In fact, I have been thinking about making a great leap backward - to get a tube amp.  Perhaps the Mac 275?

NAD M2 Direct Digital Amplifier (http://nadelectronics.com/products/masters-series/M2-Direct-Digital-Amplifier)

Yeah, that's the one.

I'm afraid digital amplifiers will be too expensive for me for 10 years but someday...

I don't get tube amplifiers. When I hear them somewhere I hear more distortion than music.  ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 09:23:36 AM
$1600!  :o

Yeah, that's the one.

I'm afraid digital amplifiers will be too expensive for me for 10 years but someday...

I don't get tube amplifiers. When I hear them somewhere I hear more distortion than music.  ;D

I will keep my eyes open for digital amps made by other manufacturers.  I will buy NAD again if it shifts some of its manufacturing away from you-know-where but that may be unrealistic.  Yamaha appears to be a pioneer in this technology as it came out with a quite affordable digital amp a few years ago.
AR is supposed to be experimenting with digital amp technology as well.  

Yamaha MX-D1 digital power amplifier  (http://stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/405yamaha/) 

If Nokia can pump up its share prices in the not too distant future, that is how my digital amp will be paid for ...    ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 15, 2009, 12:44:59 PM
What's in the M2 is class D, or?

I'm using B&O ICEpower myself. ASP and ASX2. The ASX2 sounds simply wonderful.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 12:52:04 PM
What's in the M2 is class D, or?

I'm using B&O ICEpower myself. ASP and ASX2. The ASX2 sounds simply wonderful.


Not sure.  Did the link I posted mention class D?  I think most digital amps are class D.  No?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 15, 2009, 12:53:57 PM

    I'm a big NAD fan....25 years and counting.

    The only way NAD amps could be said to have a sound relates to their high headroom.  So the 20 watt amps like the legendary 3020 could easily deliver 80 watts cleanly for transient peaks. The power supply you need to do this is much smaller and cheaper than one designed to deliver 80 watts continuously. So unlike other low power amps of the day the NADs didn't clip or limit when you turned them up. They always sounded like higher power amps. They also had a "soft clipping" circuit but I turned this off since it reduced the headroom. I think they still have this on their amps.

    I've owned 4 NAD amps: 3020, 3150, 304 and 743 (a 5.1 AV receiver). They all performed superbly.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 12:57:44 PM
   I'm a big NAD fan....25 years and counting.

    The only way NAD amps could be said to have a sound relates to their high headroom.  So the 20 watt amps like the legendary 3020 could easily deliver 80 watts cleanly for transient peaks. The power supply you need to do this is much smaller and cheaper than one designed to deliver 80 watts continuously. So unlike other low power amps of the day the NADs didn't clip or limit when you turned them up. They always sounded like higher power amps. They also had a "soft clipping" circuit but I turned this off since it reduced the headroom. I think they still have this on their amps.

    I've owned 4 NAD amps: 3020, 3150, 304 and 743 (a 5.1 AV receiver). They all performed superbly.


My 2200 has a +6db dynamic headroom and the 2100 has a +4db DH.  But NAD stopped making amps with "big" dynamic headroom by the early 90's.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 15, 2009, 03:27:02 PM
     I think my AV receiver has plenty of headroom. I'll have to check.

     I'm looking at the C355BEE and it does look like they have changed how they rate the amps. They still have plenty of headroom but some of that is included in the power spec. IOW they are claiming more continuous power (which they always could have done since the 3020 was a 27 watt amp continuous into 8 ohms. So while they are now claiming more continuous power the amps will probably behave the same. The 355BEE has a 140 watt peak into 8 ohms, 220 into 4, and 270 into 2 ohms. To me it looks like NAD is still following the same strategy but playing a numbers game. But it also looks like you're right that the really high transient figures of the 3020 are not part of the current line.

     Now I'm look at the bottom of the line C315BEE. They are claiming 40 watts for this thing? But look at the dynamic ratings:

   8 ohms   95W (19.5dBW)
   4 ohms   130W (20.8dBW)
   2 ohms   180W (22.6dBW)

    That looks familiar. This is an updated 3020 with practically the same capability in real terms. What's different? They're calling it a 40 watt amp.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 03:31:35 PM
    I think my AV receiver has plenty of headroom. I'll have to check.

     I'm looking at the C355BEE and it does look like they have changed how they rate the amps. They still have plenty of headroom but some of that is included in the power spec. IOW they are claiming more continuous power (which they always could have done since the 3020 was a 27 watt amp continuous into 8 ohms. So while they are now claiming more continuous power the amps will probably behave the same. The 355BEE has a 140 watt peak into 8 ohms, 220 into 4, and 270 into 2 ohms. To me it looks like NAD is still following the same strategy but playing a numbers game. But it also looks like you're right that the really high transient figures of the 3020 are not part of the current line.

     Now I'm look at the bottom of the line C315BEE. They are claiming 40 watts for this thing? But look at the dynamic ratings:

   8 ohms   95W (19.5dBW)
   4 ohms   130W (20.8dBW)
   2 ohms   180W (22.6dBW)

    That looks familiar. This is an updated 3020 with practically the same capability in real terms. What's different? They're calling it a 40 watt amp.

The NAD 2200 Power Envelope amp has +6db dynamic headroom.  While the amp is rated at 100 watts/ch continuous power into 8 ohms, it pumps out 400 watts/ch at peak into 8 ohms, I believe.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 15, 2009, 03:57:07 PM


     Yes, all of my '80s NADs were like that. I think they figured out that they could sell more amps by moving the numbers around than staying with the old ultra conservative ratings. It's pretty easy to turn a 20 watt amp into a 40 watt one if your standards are high enough initially. Heck, by today's standards 40 watts is probably still fairly conservative considering what the amp will do when compared with budget offerings from some other brands, especially the multichannel amps which have ridiculously unrealistic power numbers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 04:02:31 PM

     Yes, all of my '80s NADs were like that. I think they figured out that they could sell more amps by moving the numbers around than staying with the old ultra conservative ratings. It's pretty easy to turn a 20 watt amp into a 40 watt one if your standards are high enough initially. Heck, by today's standards 40 watts is probably still fairly conservative considering what the amp will do when compared with budget offerings from some other brands, especially the multichannel amps which have ridiculously unrealistic power numbers.
 

My Crown DC 300A is the only vintage amp I have that is not functional - it gives off a bad hum when connected.  I presume it has a bummed transformer.  My Tandberg 3003 amp works just fine.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on August 15, 2009, 04:15:45 PM
 

I am quite happy with my Canadian-made PSB's.     :D

It's sad in a way.  A few months ago I read an interview somewhere, (Stereophile?), with Paul Barton, (the 'P' and 'B' in PSB), who was positively gloating about how wonderful it was to have his speakers built in China and how much better speaker he could sell for cost.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 04:21:16 PM
It's sad in a way.  A few months ago I read an interview somewhere, (Stereophile?), with Paul Barton, (the 'P' and 'B' in PSB), who was positively gloating about how wonderful it was to have his speakers built in China and how much better speaker he could sell for cost.

Isn't Paul Barton up there age-wise and probably sold his company already?  I have the Axiom M60's in my living room.  They are my second pair of Canadian-made speakers.  I got them at Christmas in 01.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on August 15, 2009, 04:29:46 PM


Not sure.  Did the link I posted mention class D?  I think most digital amps are class D.  No?

Yes, but "digital" is a bit of a misnomer in fact, (and the 'D' in Class 'D' doesn't refer to digital).  "Switching" amp is more correct, that is, one whose transistors are either fully on or fully off.  Both the volume and frequency of sound is determined by the length of time the transistors are switched on vs. off.  To create smooth wave forms at audio frequences, the frequency at which the transistors are switched must be far higher than the highest audible frequency, typically over [EDIT]300MHz300kHz[/EDIT] as I recall.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on August 15, 2009, 04:33:11 PM
Isn't Paul Barton up there age-wise and probably sold his company already? ...

I believe (could be wrong) that he is still very involved. Its just he has sold a major interest for funds to continue to expand while at the same time siphoning off retained earnings for his own enjoyment.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 04:39:03 PM
I believe (could be wrong) that he is still very involved. Its just he has sold a major interest for funds to continue to expand while at the same time siphoning off retained earnings for his own enjoyment.

Anthem, another Canadian audio electronics company, has also tied up with Paradigm.  I have equipments by Anthem and Sonic Frontiers as well.  There are very few standalone audio companies these days.  Even McIntosh, Marantz and Denon are all part of some holdings company ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on August 15, 2009, 04:47:57 PM
Anthem, another Canadian audio electronics company, has also tied up with Paradigm.  I have equipments by Anthem and Sonic Frontiers as well.  There are very few standalone audio companies these days.  Even McIntosh, Marantz and Denon are all part of some holdings company ...

Note that I have a Sonic Frontiers LINE 1 preamplifier plus an Assembage DAC; (see my signature).  The one-time president of Sonic Frontiers / Anthem / Assemblage, Chris Johnson, nowadays operates Parts ConneXion (http://www.partsconnexion.com/index.html), and has no affiliation with Anthem.  Part of his Parts Connexion business, though, is repairing and upgrading old Sonic Frontiers and Anthem equipment.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 04:53:36 PM
Note that I have a Sonic Frontiers LINE 1 preamplifier; (see my signature).  The one-time president of Sonic Frontiers / Anthem, Chris Johnson, nowadays operates Parts ConneXion (http://www.partsconnexion.com/index.html), and has no affiliation with Anthem.  Part of his Parts Connexion business, though, is repairing and upgrading old Sonic Frontiers and Anthem equipment.


It is nice to know.  I also have the SF Line 1 and the Anthem CD1, which is still a very nice changer after all these years.  One reason I have not bothered with an SACD player is I also have the NAD S500i and Rega Planet 2000, both excellent redbook CDP's.  Unfortunately, I cannot play the SACD layer of my nearly 200 SACD titles.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on August 15, 2009, 05:05:59 PM
Yes, but "digital" is a bit of a misnomer in fact, (and the 'D' in Class 'D' doesn't refer to digital).  "Switching" amp is more correct, that is, one whose transistors are either fully on or fully off.  Both the volume and frequency of sound is determined by the length of time the transistors are switched on vs. off.  To create smooth wave forms at audio frequences, the frequency at which the transistors are switched must be far higher than the highest audible frequency, typically over 300MHz as I recall.

I always wondered about that, thanks! :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 15, 2009, 07:40:50 PM
Yeah. Per Abrahamsen is out after bankrupcy (and that's good for both sound* and build quality), but the brand is growing and the glossy highend line is still made in Norway. New Electrocompaniet have also aquired Dynamic Precision, which has old Tandberg engineers on board. http://www.electrocompaniet.com/

Per Abrahamsen has a new brand: http://www.abrahamsenaudio.com/

*Per Abrahamsen had/has this idea that amplifiers made for playing back recorded music should have a sound. Nuff said.

Valentino

Does Electrocompaniet make any of its products in China?  People thought Tandberg's refusal to shift some of its manufacturing to Asia was the main reason for its subsequent failure.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 15, 2009, 09:39:42 PM
I think their entry "Prelude line" is made in the Far East somewhere, mut as far as I know the "Classic line" and "DP line" is made at Tau, Norway. The "making" is soldering boards and assembling the finished product. Nobody ever did everything in-house, you know.

The company owning Electrocompaniet has it's main business in control electronics for the oil industry, where quality is a teeny wee bit more of an issue than in home hifi.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 16, 2009, 12:42:26 AM
The only way NAD amps could be said to have a sound relates to their high headroom.  So the 20 watt amps like the legendary 3020 could easily deliver 80 watts cleanly for transient peaks.

I am too young for 3020 but I have read about that legendary amplifier that sold over 1 million units. I don't think it was able to deliver 80 watts peak power into 8 ohm. Sounds too good. I think that's what it delivered into 2 ohms load. My 302 replaced 3020 according to NAD and must be very similar. For 302, NAD gave these power ratings:

Continuous average power output into 8 ohms: 25 W
IHF dynamic power 8/4/2 ohms: 50/60/75 W (dynamic headroom at 8 ohms: 3 dB)

Back in 1993 NAD 302 was their least powerful amplifier but I never managed to overdrive it. The performance of an amplifier is dependent on the signal form. NAD makes amplifiers that perform well with music signals.

The power supply you need to do this is much smaller and cheaper than one designed to deliver 80 watts continuously. So unlike other low power amps of the day the NADs didn't clip or limit when you turned them up. They always sounded like higher power amps. They also had a "soft clipping" circuit but I turned this off since it reduced the headroom. I think they still have this on their amps.

NAD still uses Soft clipping, of course. I have it on in my NAD T762. Gives extra protection for loudspeakers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 16, 2009, 02:51:31 AM
I think their entry "Prelude line" is made in the Far East somewhere, mut as far as I know the "Classic line" and "DP line" is made at Tau, Norway. The "making" is soldering boards and assembling the finished product. Nobody ever did everything in-house, you know.

The company owning Electrocompaniet has it's main business in control electronics for the oil industry, where quality is a teeny wee bit more of an issue than in home hifi.

 

No doubt.  Control electronics that monitors oil production in the North Sea 24/7 has to be precise and robust enough to withstand the elements.  Top-notched quality is certainly a must here ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 16, 2009, 03:03:02 AM
I am too young for 3020 but I have read about that legendary amplifier that sold over 1 million units. I don't think it was able to deliver 80 watts peak power into 8 ohm. Sounds too good. I think that's what it delivered into 2 ohms load. My 302 replaced 3020 according to NAD and must be very similar. For 302, NAD gave these power ratings:

Continuous average power output into 8 ohms: 25 W
IHF dynamic power 8/4/2 ohms: 50/60/75 W (dynamic headroom at 8 ohms: 3 dB)

Back in 1993 NAD 302 was their least powerful amplifier but I never managed to overdrive it. The performance of an amplifier is dependent on the signal form. NAD makes amplifiers that perform well with music signals.

NAD still uses Soft clipping, of course. I have it on in my NAD T762. Gives extra protection for loudspeakers.

I am looking at the brochure for the Power Envelope NAD 2200, the amp that started the trend of high dynamic headroom amps within NAD.  In stereo mode: IHF dynamic headroom at 8 ohms is +6db, IHF dynamic power is 400W (26 dbW) into 8 ohms, 600W (28 dbW) into 4 ohms and 800W (29 dbW) into 2 ohms.  Its continuous average power output into 8 ohms is only a modest 100 W (20 dbW). I will try to scan the brochure into the computer and upload it later today so we can all share.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on August 16, 2009, 04:26:28 AM
I am looking at the brochure for the Power Envelope NAD 2200, the amp that started the trend of high dynamic headroom amps within NAD.  In stereo mode: IHF dynamic headroom at 8 ohms is +6db, IHF dynamic power is 400W (26 dbW) into 8 ohms, 600W (28 dbW) into 4 ohms and 800W (29 dbW) into 2 ohms.  Its continuous average power output into 8 ohms is only a modest 100 W (20 dbW). I will try to scan the brochure into the computer and upload it later today so we can all share.

Well, NAD 2200 had very large dynamic headroom. Newer NAD C272 has much smaller headroom (2.3 dB), but gives 150 W continuos power at 8 ohms. On audioholics forums people are comparing these two amplifiers. According to them C272 has better sound but 2200 has more dynamic kick on loudest sounds.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 16, 2009, 05:58:14 AM
Well, NAD 2200 had very large dynamic headroom. Newer NAD C272 has much smaller headroom (2.3 dB), but gives 150 W continuos power at 8 ohms. On audioholics forums people are comparing these two amplifiers. According to them C272 has better sound but 2200 has more dynamic kick on loudest sounds.

(http://www.nrpavs.co.nz/archive/Sold_htm/Images/NAD_2600_500x300_pixels.gif)

The NAD 2600 in the Monitor Series is the most powerful amp with high dynamic headroom NAD has ever made.  I almost had a used one once but it arrived busted, courtesy of the USPS.

Specs (http://www.nrpavs.co.nz/archive/Sold_htm/NAD2600.htm)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 16, 2009, 01:37:40 PM
I am too young for 3020 but I have read about that legendary amplifier that sold over 1 million units. I don't think it was able to deliver 80 watts peak power into 8 ohm. Sounds too good. I think that's what it delivered into 2 ohms load. My 302 replaced 3020 according to NAD and must be very similar. For 302, NAD gave these power ratings:

Continuous average power output into 8 ohms: 25 W
IHF dynamic power 8/4/2 ohms: 50/60/75 W (dynamic headroom at 8 ohms: 3 dB)

Back in 1993 NAD 302 was their least powerful amplifier but I never managed to overdrive it. The performance of an amplifier is dependent on the signal form. NAD makes amplifiers that perform well with music signals.

NAD still uses Soft clipping, of course. I have it on in my NAD T762. Gives extra protection for loudspeakers.

     Your numbers do look more realistic. I might have the numbers confused with the 3150.

     These are the official specs for the 3020B:

     (http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1576/clipboard01ret.jpg)

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 16, 2009, 04:19:11 PM
     Your numbers do look more realistic. I might have the numbers confused with the 3150.

     These are the official specs for the 3020B:

     (http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1576/clipboard01ret.jpg)

     
   

Wasn't 3020B the first integrated amp made by NAD? 

If I am not mistaken, the first power amp made by NAD also had power meters, but that was to be the only power amp ever made by NAD that had power meters.

NAD really did not grab my attention until the 2200 hit the market.  I bought the amp from a dealer in NYC and in fact drove in from NJ, where I lived at the time to pick up the amp.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 16, 2009, 06:25:43 PM
 

Wasn't 3020B the first integrated amp made by NAD?  

If I am not mistaken, the first power amp made by NAD also had power meters, but that was to be the only power amp ever made by NAD that had power meters.

NAD really did not grab my attention until the 2200 hit the market.  I bought the amp from a dealer in NYC and in fact drove in from NJ, where I lived at the time to pick up the amp.


     I think the 3020 was the first. I had that one along with the 4020 tuner. I sold the amp :( many years ago. The tuner is at my brothers house where it still works and gets regular use.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 16, 2009, 10:31:35 PM
New toy, a Squeezebox Duet.

I was very happy with the Duet, until I tried to play the 24 bit/88.2 kHz files I downloaded from the Boston Symphony site.  "Unsupported sample rate".  They only support up to 48kHz.  There's no reason that 24/96 couldn't be streamed over wireless.  I regularly watch 720p divx video files without a hiccup over a wireless connection, so audio would be a breeze.  They obviously want to push the Transporter for hi-rez files.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 16, 2009, 10:40:47 PM
That's right. For 88.2 or 96kHz throughput you need the Transporter or the soon to be released Squeezebox Touch (~$400).

But if you run the current SqueezeCenter release, SoX will downsample any sample rate (up to 192kHz) to the rate your hardware will accept.
Install SC 7.3.3 if you haven't done so yet.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 16, 2009, 10:58:35 PM
That's right. For 88.2 or 96kHz throughput you need the Transporter or the soon to be released Squeezebox Touch (~$400).

But if you run the current SqueezeCenter release, SoX will downsample any sample rate (up to 192kHz) to the rate your hardware will accept.
Install SC 7.3.3 if you haven't done so yet.

Yeah, 7.3.3 on Ubuntu.  I guess this is a plugin?  I don't see anything obvious in settings.

[Edit] Ah, it only works for flac and ogg.  The files were originally aiff.  Interesting that it still reports a sample rate of 88.2kHz in the controller.

[Edit] I can see the sox command line in the unix process table, and it shows a 44100 sample rate.  My DAC lists the input as <=20/44.1.  So I wonder if some dithering is going on, too.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 17, 2009, 12:15:31 AM
Yeah, I hope so. Proper resampling includes dither this layman believes.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: RebLem on August 17, 2009, 01:26:45 AM
Speakers:  2 IMF MK III Improved 4 way speakers weith Nordost 2 flat speaker cables.   http://www.imf-electronics.com/Home/imf/speaker-range/reference-speakers/professional-monitor/professional-monitor-mkiii#TOC-SPECIFICATION

Power amp:  Audionics CC-2.  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=310147816970  and http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/bobsickler.html

Preamp:  NcCormack RLD-1.   http://www.mccormackaudio.com/rld1.html

Tuner:  Magnum Dynalab Etude FT-101A with a 1/2 wave indoor antenna.  http://www.magnumdynalab.com/x_ft101a.htm

CD player: Arcam CD-72.  http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/arcam_cd72.htm

Next upgrade will probably be a set of good component interconnects, probably Kimber Kable.  Also, a Rega P2 turntable.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 17, 2009, 08:51:45 AM
Yeah, I hope so. Proper resampling includes dither this layman believes.

I mean dithering from 24 bits to 16 bits.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 17, 2009, 09:11:33 AM
You should get 24 bits. SoX just halves (popspeak) the Fs for 96 and 88.2 kHz.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 17, 2009, 09:27:57 AM
I guess I can write my BSO hi-rez files to a DVD-R in some way that it will be "understood" by my Oppo, then play it back into my DAC.

I downloaded the recent live Levine Mahler 6, by the way, for $10.  Looking forward to hearing it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on August 17, 2009, 09:54:01 AM
I still don't quite understand: Won't SC downsample you hirez files to 48 or 44.1? Or is the thing that you WANT 88.2 or 96?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 17, 2009, 11:25:43 AM
I still don't quite understand: Won't SC downsample you hirez files to 48 or 44.1? Or is the thing that you WANT 88.2 or 96?

I'm listening to these hi-rez files with my Squeezebox now, after converting them to flac, but it's the principle of the thing, dammit. ;)

My original plan was to set up a small embedded Linux system to do the streaming.  Might still try that.  I'm sure I could do internet radio with that as well.

BTW, the Levine Mahler 6 has very nice sonics, but it seems a bit bass light and not particularly dynamic.  I don't think it really needs hi-rez.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 17, 2009, 11:45:07 AM


    I want to get an inexpensive receiver that processes HDMI audio (not passthrough IOW). Does anyone have a suggestion? My upper limit is ~$500 but I'd like to go lower than that if I can. The high rez formats are welcome but not necessary. Does anyone know about this? I'm sure the info is there on AVS Forums but it's scattered over a number of threads.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 17, 2009, 12:12:33 PM

    I want to get an inexpensive receiver that processes HDMI audio (not passthrough IOW). Does anyone have a suggestion? My upper limit is ~$500 but I'd like to go lower than that if I can. The high rez formats are welcome but not necessary. Does anyone know about this? I'm sure the info is there on AVS Forums but it's scattered over a number of threads.

This one looks nice:

http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-SR705-Channel-Theater-Receiver/dp/B000OBMX0K
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 17, 2009, 12:23:40 PM
This one looks nice:

http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-SR705-Channel-Theater-Receiver/dp/B000OBMX0K


    It does look nice. What I'd like to know is how far down the line you can go and still get audio processing (not HD audio, just the usual PCM and bitstream). I want to send HDMI audio to the speakers, not the display, and cheap receivers are usually pass-through only. What's the lowest model in the Onkyo line that does what I want? The same question would apply to other brands such as Yamaha, HK, Sony and Marantz.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 23, 2009, 04:13:15 PM
Here is the NAD 2200 specs from the original brochure ...

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 23, 2009, 09:29:40 PM
Here is the NAD 2200 specs from the original brochure ...



     Those are impressive numbers.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on August 24, 2009, 03:12:45 PM
     Those are impressive numbers.

Yeah, after the 2200, the Monitor Series models 2600, 2400 and 2100 were the only amps that came close to 2200 in terms of dynamic headroom relative to their respective continuous power. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 25, 2009, 08:19:02 PM
I've been burning time playing with the configuration of my Squeezebox server to make classical music more navigable.  Some folks in the community put together this howto:

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Setup_browse_menu_for_classical_music

Basically you set it up to handle some custom tags like WORK (apparently COMPOSER, CONDUCTOR, and BAND should already be supported).  Then you have to tag your files, and I couldn't find anything that would allow me to add custom tags like this, so I wrote my own with PyQt.  It's still a little primitive, and manual tagging is really a pain.  The resulting navigation menus also still seem a little confusing and redundant, but you can at least organize things sensibly by Composer/Work/Conductor/Band/Artist.

I'm also finding that stuff I ripped in a fit of enthusiasm some time ago has no real identifying information about the performance, so I have quite a few mystery rips to figure out.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on August 25, 2009, 08:31:04 PM


    I load mystery rips into Winamp and autotag them, which works maybe 70-80% of the time. Then I can clean them up in another program.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on August 25, 2009, 08:34:57 PM
    I load mystery rips into Winamp and autotag them, which works maybe 70-80% of the time. Then I can clean them up in another program.

These are already tagged with whatever was in the free online CD database.  Which is very often worthless.

I suppose I could burn them to CD-RW and load them into iTunes, which uses a different, sometimes better, online database.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 02, 2009, 06:40:01 AM
Just a 'boombox' for my basement workout/shop area - my main requirement was just a CD player that would also do CD-R & MP3 discs; plus, I wanted a FM radio to listen to our local NPR station out of Wake Forest University.

My previous setup was 'cheap' - this is just the basement, now; portable CD player hooked up to some old computer speakers, and no good radio!  Well the CD player 'craped out' after a couple of years of use; so walked into a Sears store, and saw the unit shown below Sony ZS-SN10S - had the features I wanted plus listed at just $80 - so checked out and the box was being discontinued and I picked it up for $20!

Well, the radio brings in my NPR station loud & clear; the CD player accomplishes the requirements above; and the speakers sound better than my old ones - not a bad deal!   :D

(http://www.abt.com/images/products/BDP_Images/big_zssn10S.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on October 02, 2009, 12:56:36 PM
Heading here this weekend.....second year in a row.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on October 03, 2009, 04:32:14 AM
Here is the link....


http://audiofest.net/2009/index.php
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on October 03, 2009, 06:08:40 AM
Here is the link....


http://audiofest.net/2009/index.php

Morning, Bill.  I imagine you must enjoy the audio show.  I used to go to the NY HiFi Show years ago ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on October 03, 2009, 06:15:04 AM
Morning, Bill.  I imagine you must enjoy the audio show.  I used to go to the NY HiFi Show years ago ...

I do not do the full weekend like many.  I am meeting my dad there tomorrow and we will hit about 20 or so rooms out of the 160.  The neat thing is that there is also a vinyl show on the 18th!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on October 03, 2009, 12:02:35 PM
I do not do the full weekend like many.  I am meeting my dad there tomorrow and we will hit about 20 or so rooms out of the 160.  The neat thing is that there is also a vinyl show on the 18th!

I no longer have the level of enthusiasm I used to have for audio equipments.  Looking back, I think I am more fond of analog audio equipments than digital equipments. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 08, 2009, 01:05:18 AM
Bought this system today for the living room, as a quick listening reference. A tube amplifier, with surprisingly good sound, smooth highs, and a tight bass. Overall detail is amazing.


http://www.consumer.philips.com/c/audioproducten/hdmi-1080p-mcd909_12/prd/nl/
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Harry on October 08, 2009, 01:53:28 AM
Inserted this device in my primary system, and its bloody amazing.


http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/power-conditioners/329-a-secrets-power-conditioner-review.html
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Frellie on November 07, 2009, 07:49:50 AM

Had to find a sound system, last year, for my small appartment. I was on a budget of max. € 1500, but the system still had to be able to rip the furniture apart with symphonic blasts, or make it shiver with choral whispers.

Found this to be more than satisfying:

Denon PMA-700AE
Denon DCD-700AE
(http://www.fransvaneeckhout.be/denon/images/denon-700AE.jpg)

Along with Dali Suite 2.8 Loudspeakers

(http://www.avrev.com/images/stories/jreviews/tn/tn_4874_floor.jpg)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on November 07, 2009, 11:27:22 AM
All I want for Christmas is my two dipoles, my two dipoles, my two dipoles...

(Drawing for cabinet maker attached.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on November 07, 2009, 11:32:48 AM
...but with them I must also have these two subwoofers, these two subwoofers, these two subwoofers...


A bit of Linkwitz, a bit of computer audio, a wee bit of architect input, and many hours of prototyping have gone into this project. Fingers crossed!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 07, 2009, 11:36:52 AM
...but with them I must also have these two subwoofers, these two subwoofers, these two subwoofers...


A bit of Linkwitz, a bit of computer audio, a wee bit of architect input, and many hours of prototyping have gone into this project. Fingers crossed!


Valentino,  I thought your sound system is fully digital? 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 07, 2009, 11:46:14 AM
Here is an interesting link with some excellent article on audio ... (http://www.roger-russell.com/eico/citation.htm#citationx)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on November 07, 2009, 11:47:39 AM
From this one on it will be "fully digital", yes. It's a bit difficult to explain how this works. In front of the 8 amplifier channels there is a little PC that run the crossovers (and RIAA correction), a RME Fireface UC and a Logitech Transporter. Add a bit of wiring and software routing and it plays.
I will still be able to play LPs: The RME has two very nice microphone inputs, and for Squeezebox Server there is this nice little plugin called wavinput.

But the big thing is that I wave goodbye to monkey coffins and welcome dynamic dipoles. That's something else.

Addendum: Great article! Thanks!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 07, 2009, 11:50:53 AM
From this one on it wil be "fully digital, yes. It's a bit difficult to explain how this works. In front of the 8 amplifier channels there is a little PC that run the crossovers (and RIAA correction), a RME Fireface UC and a Logitech Transporter. Add a bit of wiring and software routing and it plays.
I will still be able to play LPs: The RME has two very nice microphone inputs, and for Squeezebox Server there is this nice little plugin called wavinput.

But the big thing is that I wave goodbye to monkey coffins and welcome dynamic dipoles. That's something else.

But wouldn't your new dipoles have to be self-powered (i.e. active) speakers like most computer speakers and not the conventional passive speakers?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on November 07, 2009, 12:10:45 PM
Indeed they are active!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 07, 2009, 12:12:59 PM
Indeed they are active!

I have a fair amount of misgivings for the active speakers.  Who are the players in that space?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on November 07, 2009, 12:20:17 PM
Not many in hifi, but some: Meridian, B&O, Adam, and then some semi-active, like Vandersteen.

Don't you like active speakers? In that case how come? I can only see benefits.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 07, 2009, 12:35:03 PM
Not many in hifi, but some: Meridian, B&O, Adam, and then some semi-active, like Vandersteen.

Don't you like active speakers? In that case how come? I can only see benefits.

I used to have a Yamaha power sub, which I gave to my brother-in-law a number of years ago.  I have never owned another one since.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on December 28, 2009, 05:02:00 AM
New stash for the holidays.

(http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34975.0;attach=123116;image)

Dipoles 40Hz-20Khz, sealed subs below. Computerized crossovers, processor loop applied on Logitech Transporter, a RME Fireface UC, class D amplification. C'est la Avant Garde!

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on December 28, 2009, 09:08:03 AM
New stash for the holidays.

(http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34975.0;attach=123116;image)

Dipoles 40Hz-20Khz, sealed subs below. Computerized crossovers, processor loop applied on Logitech Transporter, a RME Fireface UC, class D amplification. C'est la Avant Garde!

Valentino ,  First time to see your post in weeks.  Been on an extended cruise?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on December 28, 2009, 09:32:49 AM
I have been busy finishing these babies, the Christmas run-up at home, and a heavy professional workload. But between that Wagner, Mozart and Haydn. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on December 28, 2009, 09:35:03 AM
I have been busy finishing these babies, the Christmas run-up at home, and a heavy professional workload. But between that Wagner, Mozart and Haydn. :)

So these speakers are specialized for hooking up to computer soundcard?   They certainly look much larger than my Altec Lansing setellites ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on December 28, 2009, 04:12:15 PM
Here is an interesting link with some excellent article on audio ... (http://www.roger-russell.com/eico/citation.htm#citationx)
Thanks, Coop,
 
And of course Roger Russell's site is a classic those interested in McIntosh Labs vintage equipment (http://www.roger-russell.com/sitemap.htm).  (Another is Bremer's site (http://www.berners.ch/McIntosh/en/McHome.htm).)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Cristofori on December 28, 2009, 06:01:12 PM
Except for my SACD player, my equipment (receiver, turntable, tape deck, speakers) is all decent quality vintage stuff in excellent condition picked up at various estate sales.

I used to have a higher end system in the past, but sold it off due to financial difficulties at the time.

I will someday get something better, but I've grown to like my vintage equipment, especially considering it only cost me around $300 total for everything including new cartridge, belts, etc, and a little elbow grease! :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on December 28, 2009, 06:13:33 PM
Except for my SACD player, my equipment is all decent quality vintage stuff in excellent condition picked up at various estate sales.

I used to have a higher end system in the past, but sold it off due to financial difficulties at the time.

I will someday get something better, but I've grown to like my vintage equipment, especially considering it only cost me around $300 total for everything including new cartridge, belts, etc, and a little elbow grease! :)

The only equipment that is missing from my system is really an SACD player.  I have over 200 SACD titles but can only play their stereo layers.  There are 2 that are not hybrids and therefore will not play in my redbook CDP's.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Cristofori on December 28, 2009, 06:46:23 PM
The only equipment that is missing from my system is really an SACD player.  I have over 200 SACD titles but can only play their stereo layers.  There are 2 that are not hybrids and therefore will not play in my redbook CDP's.
The SACD I'm using is a Sony 5-disc carousel I got at Best Buy a few years ago for around $150 or so.

Certainly not the greatest for Redbook CD playback, but the SACD capability is excellent. I think this player is still available. You could probably get it at Crutchfield with free shipping, at least to serve for temporary SACD duty until you get something better.

If I was you, I couldn't sleep at night having over 200 SACD's, and no player use them in! :'(
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on December 28, 2009, 06:47:06 PM
The only equipment that is missing from my system is really an SACD player.  I have over 200 SACD titles but can only play their stereo layers.  There are 2 that are not hybrids and therefore will not play in my redbook CDP's.

Although most (self-declared) audiophiles might violently disagree, I suggest that if you upgrade, go for surround sound (which would involve getting 3 more speakers and a new amp. The upgrade from Red Book to SACD stereo-only (although there are many fine dedicated stereo SACD players (Marantz' 11S1, for example (http://weta.org/fm/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/dsc00520.JPG))) doesn't really improve matters sufficiently enough to be worth it. (That is: for there to be an easily detectable difference.)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on December 28, 2009, 06:55:40 PM
The SACD I'm using is a Sony 5-disc carousel I got at Best Buy a few years ago for around $150 or so.

Certainly not the greatest for Redbook CD playback, but the SACD capability is excellent. I think this player is still available. You could probably get it at Crutchfield with free shipping, at least to serve for temporary SACD duty until you get something better.

If I was you, I couldn't sleep at night having over 200 SACD's, and no player use them in! :'(

Do you have a 5.1 HT receiver?  My preamps are all 2 channel and as such I will need an SACD player with the regular RCA connections and not with some fancy digital connection.  There is a Sony 5400ES out there that seems to meet my need, but it was out of stock at Crutchfield for a while ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Cristofori on December 28, 2009, 06:58:01 PM
Although most (self-declared) audiophiles might violently disagree, I suggest that if you upgrade, go for surround sound (which would involve getting 3 more speakers and a new amp. The upgrade from Red Book to SACD stereo-only (although there are many fine dedicated stereo SACD players (Marantz' 11S1, for example (http://weta.org/fm/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/dsc00520.JPG))) doesn't really improve matters sufficiently enough to be worth it. (That is: for there to be an easily detectable difference.)
I might tend to agree with you on most classical recordings, as they tend to benefit more from ambiance, but the improvments stereo only SACD gives is certainly noticable in the lower end/bass department, with the few pop/rock recordings I've heard. It also benefits classical organ music and other bass heavy type recordings. Not so much for piano, chamber, or vocal stuff though.

Also, getting a surround system can greatly complicate things, and the cost involved may be prohibitive for some people.

I'd rather pool my resources into 2 outstanding speakers than 5 or more merely "good" or mediocre ones. Not to mention the subwoofer, receiver, cables, interconnects, etc.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Cristofori on December 28, 2009, 07:12:25 PM
Do you have a 5.1 HT receiver?  My preamps are all 2 channel and as such I will need an SACD player with the regular RCA connections and not with some fancy digital connection.  There is a Sony 5400ES out there that seems to meet my need, but it was out of stock at Crutchfield for a while ...
No, just an old Pioneer vintage 2-channel receiver.

The Sony SACD I have (model # SCD-CE595) can be used for both multi-channel or stereo only SACD playback. There is a selector on the remote to switch between the two. You can also switch between the SACD and CD layers, although I don't know why anyone would want to.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on December 28, 2009, 07:13:53 PM
I might tend to agree with you on most classical recordings, as they tend to benefit more from ambiance, but the improvments stereo only SACD gives is certainly noticable in the lower end/bass department, with the few pop/rock recordings I've heard. It also greatly benefita classical organ music and other bass heavy type recordings. Not so much for piano, chamber, or vocal stuff though.

Also, getting a surround system can greatly complicate things, and cost involved may be prohibitive for some people.

I'd rather pool my resources into 2 outstanding speakers than 5 or more merely "good" or mediocre ones. Not to mention the subwoofer, receiver, cables, interconnects, etc.

...and I, in turn, agree with you. That's part of the problem of SACD. It really shines in 5.0 or 5.1 (depending on what speakers you use), but to get there, there is a cost--and space--factor to consider. Better excellent red-book stereo than modest 5.1 SACD. But if you've found speakers you like, and you have the room and eventually the budget, the upgrading to surround unlocks a few very nice surprises. After years of not doing surround at all (or properly), I've finally started planning the permanent move. With five Thiel SCS4 (http://www.thielaudio.com/) (incredible precision, dead-accurate, instant response... with an analytical tendency, no 'beautification' of sound whatsoever, like B&W CM5, which really rubs me the wrong way) and, possibly, eventually (because they need it) a subwoofer at some point.

Despite not-so-subtle opposition from my HiFi shop's clerks, I might go with the NAD M-Class on Amp & SACD player.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Cristofori on December 28, 2009, 07:32:05 PM
...and I, in turn, agree with you. That's part of the problem of SACD. It really shines in 5.0 or 5.1 (depending on what speakers you use), but to get there, there is a cost--and space--factor to consider. Better excellent red-book stereo than modest 5.1 SACD. But if you've found speakers you like, and you have the room and eventually the budget, the upgrading to surround unlocks a few very nice surprises. After years of not doing surround at all (or properly), I've finally started planning the permanent move. With five Thiel SCS4 (http://www.thielaudio.com/) (incredible precision, dead-accurate, instant response... with an analytical tendency, no 'beautification' of sound whatsoever, like B&W CM5, which really rubs me the wrong way) and, possibly, eventually (because they need it) a subwoofer at some point.

Despite not-so-subtle opposition from my HiFi shop's clerks, I might go with the NAD M-Class on Amp & SACD player.
I may be getting the new Marantz SA8003 SACD in a few months. In fact, I've decided to go with Marantz for my whole system in the future, now that I found out their new PM8003 integrated amp has a toroidal transformer.

Plus, they have all the features and build quality I'm looking in a matching system at a not too outrageous price, and I can get it all from Crutchfield with free shipping and without having to deal with pretentious, stuck up audio dealers who don't like to take returns if your not happy! :D

I'm still open on the speakers end of it though. Funny, you mentioned it. I was considered looking at the B&W CM5's. I used to have a pair of B&W 601 S3 bookshelves, and they were great!





Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Cristofori on December 28, 2009, 07:39:57 PM
Quote
...and I, in turn, agree with you. That's part of the problem of SACD. It really shines in 5.0 or 5.1 (depending on what speakers you use), but to get there, there is a cost--and space--factor to consider.
Another problem with multi-channel music, is there seems to be few set standards. Your pretty much at the mercy of the producers of any given disc you buy.

Some surround mixes are wonderful, or tastefully done, while others are inaccurate, annoying, or barely noticeable at all.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on December 28, 2009, 07:42:11 PM
No, just an old Pioneer vintage 2-channel receiver.

The Sony SACD I have (model # SCD-CE595) can be used for both multi-channel or stereo only SACD playback. There is a selector on the remote to switch between the two. You can also switch between the SACD and CD layers, although I don't know why anyone would want to.

So you just use the regular RCA connection between the SACD player and the receiver since your receiver is 2-channel.  For me, the problem is mainly with my 3 dachshunds.  They like to lay on the bay window looking out.  If I go 5.1, the two rear speakers will be right by the bay window and will be constantly knocked over.  In theory, all I need are just two rear-channel plus a center-channel speakers and a powered sub plus the HT processor since I have 7 power amps (some are in boxes) at the house I can use.  I have heard of combo box that combines the rear and center channels (or perhaps all the channels) into one box, but how the sound becomes surround is beyond me since that combo box will be placed in front of me.  Besides, how is that SQ?  So this is both a space and a pet issue.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Cristofori on December 28, 2009, 07:52:15 PM
So you just use the regular RCA connection between the SACD player and the receiver since your receiver is 2-channel.  For me, the problem is mainly with my 3 dachshunds.  They like to lay on the bay window looking out.  If I go 5.1, the two rear speakers will be right by the bay window and will be constantly knocked over.  In theory, all I need are just two rear-channel plus a center-channel speakers and a powered sub plus the HT processor since I have 7 power amps (some are in boxes) at the house I can use.  I have heard of combo box that combines the rear and center channels (or perhaps all the channels) into one box, but how the sound becomes surround is beyond me since that combo box will be placed in front of me.  Besides, how is that SQ?  So this is both a space and a pet issue.
Right, you can still get a partial benefit from multi-channel without having to get the surrounds, which is the part that complicates things the most, as your situation is an example. You'll just be missing the surround info, which you wouldn't have anyway if you were just using stereo.

As far as the HT Processor and the 7 power amps goes, all that stuff is over my head. I just use a conventional HI-FI system.

Also, I wouldn't bother with any kind of "fake surround" type set up. That type of stuff will almost always make your system sound worse. There is no substitute for proper surround speakers.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on December 28, 2009, 08:05:14 PM
Right, you can still get a partial benefit from multi-channel without having to get the surrounds, which is the part that complicates things the most, as your situation an example. You'll just be missing the surround info, which you wouldn't have anyway if you were just using stereo.

As far as the HT Processor and the 7 power amps goes, all that stuff is over my head. I just use a conventional HI-FI system.

Also, I wouldn't bother with any kind of "fake surround" type set up. That type of stuff will almost always make your system sound worse. There is no substitute for proper surround speakers.

I just may go with the three channel approach since I listen to a lot of choral music and for SACD, the center channel is where you get most of the voice "info".  I also have a good number of classical concerts on 5.1 DVD, guess I will not be able to appreciate the full audio effects.    :(
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on December 28, 2009, 08:58:55 PM
I'm still open on the speakers end of it though. Funny, you mentioned it. I was considered looking at the B&W CM5's. I used to have a pair of B&W 601 S3 bookshelves, and they were great!

Marantz build-quality is amazing. The 11S1 felt like a luxury vehicle... rock solid, sturdy. It made me as happy when it was just sitting there as it did, playing. Too bad it didn't sound all that much greater than the gear I had.  :D

I might condone anyone not caring too much about sampling a source before they buy... if it's good stuff it will be good--the more important matters about players are in any case button-press response time, CD-read delay, and error correction. The rest is marginal nuance, assuming it's properly built. Speakers I can only urge anyone to sample before purchase. At the price of getting two--much less five--speakers of the type of a B&W CM5, it's well worth making it a two-day holiday to the nearest big city where an audio dealer lets you use their room to sample and even compare. (If that's what it takes.)

What bothered me about the CM5s was their strong tendency to make everything sound beautiful, to flatter the ear, to smoothen the whole picture. But unfortunately smooth also means a slight smudge, and I was driven nuts by what I felt were speakers that tried to 'put one over me'. I wasn't buying the beauty... I wanted radical truth. B&W is a mainstream sound... perfect for background music and a very broad palette of music. The Thiel SCS4 was a wee bit awkward with with music like Salif Keita. I can't remember the other US American monitor I tried... also very, very impressive and perhaps 'better' in the all-round sense--but the accuracy of the SCS4 had me totally enchanted for the last listening session.

In any case, if I'd want beautification, I much prefer the 'luxurious' type... Sonus Faber (Liuto Monitor)  or Sonics Argenta... or the classic cool, but not exaggerated, detail of Canton (Reference 9.2DC, Vento 820)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on December 28, 2009, 11:32:33 PM
So these speakers are specialized for hooking up to computer soundcard?   They certainly look much larger than my Altec Lansing setellites ...
Yes, the system needs computer software and 8 DAC channels to function.

There is an "analog" equivalent out there, the Linkwitz Lab Orion++ (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_us.htm), which also was the main inspiration for this project.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on December 29, 2009, 11:25:51 AM
Yes, the system needs computer software and 8 DAC channels to function.

There is an "analog" equivalent out there, the Linkwitz Lab Orion++ (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_us.htm), which also was the main inspiration for this project.

Have you managed much space saving by going all digital?  I have NEVER stepped into a Scandinavian home and have no clue as to what the typical size of an average house in your part of the world is (even though I have visited Scandinavia a few times as a tourist).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on December 29, 2009, 02:54:34 PM
I till have the same Montana (http://www.montana.dk/en/Living/Home/) cabinet for elecronics and such, but there is less electronics in it now. I decorate with box sets, like HM50, the Solti Ring and DG111.  ;D
The main benefit by going all digital is to do all signal processing in the digital domain. With digital you can do anything.

As for living space in Scandinavia I do not think it really matters. To get proper sound speakers need to be at least 1m (3ft+) from any wall, so the room should be 250 sq ft or more. No big deal in the US, or?

Addendum one month later  ::)

(http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34975.0;attach=123116;image)

Scandinavian Modern rules OK.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on January 31, 2010, 06:29:17 AM
Adding this little flowchart of how my new system works. Nothing to be scared of, it doesn't bite or kick.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on January 31, 2010, 06:42:59 AM
Adding this little flowchart of how my new system works. Nothing to be scared of, it doesn't bite or kick.

Very nice!  I am going retro, as I am seriously considering getting either a McIntosh or an Audio Research tube amp.  There really is not a lot of reason for me to go 100% digital since I already have a pretty good-sized classical library of traditional media - from LP to open-reel to cassette and CD.  MP3's do not count, even though I have a huge number of them as well.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on February 13, 2010, 06:41:36 AM
Dark Angel- What make and model speakers do you own? Mine are designed the same way, with the tweeter in the center and two larger speakers on either side. Mine are Polk Audio Monitor 40s:

(http://cdn1.techbargains.com/icache/2009/07/14/00006727.jpeg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DarkAngel on February 13, 2010, 06:47:19 AM
George
My speakers are custom made by Tyler Acoustics USA the Linbrook Signature Monitors, very expensive but sound great. Those are Seas Millenium soft dome tweeters, very nice
 
http://www.tyleracoustics.com/ (http://www.tyleracoustics.com/)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 13, 2010, 07:30:19 AM
Dark Angel- What make and model speakers do you own? Mine are designed the same way, with the tweeter in the center and two larger speakers on either side. Mine are Polk Audio Monitor 40s:

(http://cdn1.techbargains.com/icache/2009/07/14/00006727.jpeg)

I have Polk Audio Monitors as well, but towers.  I think that just DA's speaker stands are more expensive than our low-fi speakers! :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on February 13, 2010, 01:37:15 PM
I have Polk Audio Monitors as well, but towers.  I think that just DA's speaker stands are more expensive than our low-fi speakers! :D

 ;D

I love my Polks! Which ones do you have?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on February 13, 2010, 01:46:18 PM
;D

I love my Polks! Which ones do you have?

I have the 50s. :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ECG77RRVL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on February 13, 2010, 01:50:08 PM
I have the 50s. :)

Cool.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on February 13, 2010, 04:54:57 PM
Very happy with Polk LSi9's which are the basis of my 5.1 surround system.

(http://www.polkaudio.com/images/lineup/book-lsi-large.jpg)

Also have a pair of Polk RTi70's which for 2-channel media.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/418F9WS0G9L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

The RTi70's are driven by an old school NAD 2200 power amp, and a NAD 1155 pre-amp

In the basement have an old pair of ADS L810 speakers, Sound good but just too big.

(http://pic3.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1255340858.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 13, 2010, 08:53:27 PM
I have Polk Audio Monitors as well, but towers.  I think that just DA's speaker stands are more expensive than our low-fi speakers! :D

You need to strike a balance.  Having a great sound system but without a decent-sized collection of good music also defeats the purpose.  While some would argue speakers are important, I think electronics are quite important as well.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on February 13, 2010, 11:47:45 PM
In my music room I got a pair of these:
(http://www.soundandvisionworkshop.com/images/Dali_MS5CCX.JPG)

Dali Euphonia MS5

In the living room, I use these:
(http://www.stereofil.no/produkter/images/vienna_beethoven_concert.jpg)

Vienna Acoustics Beethoven
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2010, 06:15:05 AM
In my music room I got a pair of these:
(http://www.soundandvisionworkshop.com/images/Dali_MS5CCX.JPG)

Dali Euphonia MS5

In the living room, I use these:
(http://www.stereofil.no/produkter/images/vienna_beethoven_concert.jpg)

Vienna Acoustics Beethoven

Erato, you must have large listening room at your house.  I can never have such large speakers at my house since I already have had the Definitive Technology BP20's since 95 ...

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 14, 2010, 06:23:54 AM
In my music room I got a pair of these:
(http://www.soundandvisionworkshop.com/images/Dali_MS5CCX.JPG)

Dali Euphonia MS5


It looks painfully beautiful.  :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on February 14, 2010, 06:27:02 AM
28 sqm music room - the secret here is being able to position the speakers optimally in a room with no other use than listening to music. So they are set up well away from walls in an approximately equilateral triangle with 3 m sides.

55 sqm living room, the Viennas are an easy placement there.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on February 14, 2010, 06:27:55 AM
It looks painfully beautiful.  :D
Yes they are, if you are addicted to these things! ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on February 14, 2010, 06:40:24 AM
28 sqm music room - the secret here is being able to position the speakers optimally in a room with no other use than listening to music. So they are set up well away from walls in an approximately equilateral triangle with 3 m sides.

55 sqm living room, the Viennas are an easy placement there.

My listening room is probably 20' x 20', which is about 36 sqm.  The BP20's, which are bipolar and just right for a room of such size.

(http://www.saturdayaudio.com/picturepages/definitive_technology_bp20_a.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on February 14, 2010, 08:11:56 AM
My listening room is probably 20' x 20', which is about 36 sqm.  The BP20's, which are bipolar and just right for a room of such size.

Yeah, but the medication bills must be expensive...

 ;)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on April 10, 2010, 11:34:18 AM
Beogram TX2 Turntable with an MMC 3 cartridge was just given to me for free. Is this a better option than my Project 3 than I am now using? Thanks!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on April 10, 2010, 11:37:40 AM
Beogram TX2 Turntable with an MMC 3 cartridge was just given to me for free. Is this a better option than my Project 3 than I am now using? Thanks!

Sounds like it's time for a shootout. maybe plug both into an amp with an LP that you have two copies of playing on each, so you can switch back and forth.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on April 10, 2010, 11:41:25 AM
Beogram TX2 Turntable with an MMC 3 cartridge was just given to me for free. Is this a better option than my Project 3 than I am now using? Thanks!

Bill, I had the B&O TX and that was a pretty problematic linear-tracking TT due to some design flaws.  My understanding is TX2 should be a vast improvement over TX.  Project 3 has a conventional pivoted arm while TX2 is a linear-tracker, which traverses the record in much the same way the record is cut.  In theory, it should be more accurate.  MMC3 is also an excellent cartridge - it is a plug-in, no cartridge cables to mess around with.  If you got the TX2 for free, I say enjoy it ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on April 10, 2010, 12:06:25 PM
Bill, I had the B&O TX and that was a pretty problematic linear-tracking TT due to some design flaws.  My understanding is TX2 should be a vast improvement over TX.  Project 3 has a conventional pivoted arm while TX2 is a linear-tracker, which traverses the record in much the same way the record is cut.  In theory, it should be more accurate.  MMC3 is also an excellent cartridge - it is a plug-in, no cartridge cables to mess around with.  If you got the TX2 for free, I say enjoy it ...

Do you remember the silver disc you set on to, Stuart?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on April 10, 2010, 12:09:00 PM
Do you remember the silver disc you set on to, Stuart?

Did you mean the TT platter?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on April 10, 2010, 12:25:19 PM
Did you mean the TT platter?

Yes.  Figured it out.  However, there seems to be a clear guard on the needle.  Does that just pop off?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on April 10, 2010, 12:32:11 PM
Yes.  Figured it out.  However, there seems to be a clear guard on the needle.  Does that just pop off?

Bill, You just push the stylus guard upward when you play your record.  I just looked at my MMC2 cartridge.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on April 10, 2010, 12:34:19 PM
Bill, You just push the stylus guard upward when you play your record.  I just looked at my MMC2 cartridge.

Many, many, thanks, Stuart!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on April 10, 2010, 12:37:22 PM
You just may want to hold on to that cartridge, Stuart:

http://www.elexatelier.com/bangandolufsenphono.htm  $:)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on April 10, 2010, 12:39:20 PM
You might want to have the local audio shop check the stylus if you don't know how much play it has on it.

http://www.sound-smith.com/

makes replacement cartridges.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on April 10, 2010, 12:42:54 PM
You might want to have the local audio shop check the stylus if you don't know how much play it has on it.

http://www.sound-smith.com/

makes replacement cartridges.

Do they have replacements for this tt, Daverz?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on April 10, 2010, 12:44:39 PM
Ah....found it!  Thanks for the link.  Great to know there are some out there.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on April 10, 2010, 12:52:14 PM
Do they have replacements for this tt, Daverz?

Dave beat me to SoundSmith, which is not far from my house.  SoundSmith specializes in servicing certain vintage equipments such as Tandberg and B&O.  I have a few Tandberg and my B&O 8002 has some speed sensor problem, which causes it to shut off in the middle of play.  Someone recommended some part replacements from Denmark to fix the problem but that requires me to do some soldering, which I am not comfortable with ...   ???
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on May 08, 2010, 11:52:04 AM
My system is listed on my signature, and there's a pic of it there.

Earlier this year I sold my 4-year old Martin Logan Vantage speakers and bought a pair of Analysis Audio Amphitryon, which I've auditioned a couple of years ago and knew that I'd get them at some point. Big step up financially but it was definitely worth it. Next step will be upgrading amplification, probably to tube monoblocks (or at least solid-state monoblocks but undoubtedly with a reference tube preamp). After that I might eventually upgrade my CD player to an Esoteric P-03/D-03.

Right now the system plays really really well, especially after tube-rolling my amp. The upgrades above are firmly on the diminishing returns side of things, but it's not unlike the never ending quest for the best rendition of a musical work, so I know that I'll end up doing them, however long it takes.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 22, 2010, 03:45:14 PM
Borrowed this guy from the audio shop for the weekend:

(http://www.balanced.com/products/amp/Vk-55SE/images/VK-55SEFront.jpg)

The BAT VK-55SE, which uses 6H30 tubes.  55 watts, which is plenty for my room.  Really much more than I'd want to pay for an amp, though.  There is a cheaper non-SE version that uses 6922 tubes.  Enjoying the extra demensionality, but the bass seems a bit too warmish.  May be able to mitigate that by adjusting my Vandy's bass EQ.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 22, 2010, 03:51:50 PM
Borrowed this guy from the audio shop for the weekend:

(http://www.balanced.com/products/amp/Vk-55SE/images/VK-55SEFront.jpg)

The BAT VK-55SE, which uses 6H30 tubes.  55 watts, which is plenty for my room.  Really much more than I'd want to pay for an amp, though.  There is a cheaper non-SE version that uses 6922 tubes.  Enjoying the extra demensionality, but the bass seems a bit too warmish.  May be able to mitigate that by adjusting my Vandy's bass EQ.

I have been considering a tube-amp ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 22, 2010, 04:52:53 PM
I have been considering a tube-amp ...

BAT has excellent customer service.  I also like that their non "SE" stuff is designed to work with Electro Harmonix 6922 tubes, which are quiet and relatively cheap current production tubes.  But as to whether their stuff sounds better than the cheap Chinese amps, I can't say.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Valentino on May 22, 2010, 09:01:32 PM
Certainly looks good, though.

But it's not for me, since all of my electronics are hidden except for this little gadget:

(http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=20557.0;attach=147192;image)

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 22, 2010, 09:08:04 PM
this little gadget:

That's my source for 99% of listening these days, with the coaxial out feeding the DAC in a Cambridge Audio 840C, and controlled by an iPod Touch with the iPeng app.  I feel guilty about my turntable sitting idle so much, partly because I'm too lazy to clean records.

The funny thing is that I use the blank screensaver and never use the touch interface.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: snyprrr on May 28, 2010, 08:14:25 AM
For what it's worth, I've alwaaaaaays listened to cheap boomboxes and hand-me-down stereos. :o Yes, I'm sure I don't know what I'm missing!

And, iIf you think that's shocking you should see my SocialSecurityStatement, haha!! ::)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 29, 2010, 10:04:10 AM
For what it's worth, I've alwaaaaaays listened to cheap boomboxes and hand-me-down stereos. :o Yes, I'm sure I don't know what I'm missing!

And, iIf you think that's shocking you should see my SocialSecurityStatement, haha!! ::)

Karajan and the BPO may not sound as good on a boombox, but it is still good music.  Multiple big rigs in a home, as in my case, do have their drawback - they take up a lot of room.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 29, 2010, 03:38:19 PM
For what it's worth, I've alwaaaaaays listened to cheap boomboxes and hand-me-down stereos. :o Yes, I'm sure I don't know what I'm missing!

And, iIf you think that's shocking you should see my SocialSecurityStatement, haha!! ::)

Snyprrr - as my son use to say as a boy, are you speaking true?   ;) ;D

I listen to a LOT of my new acquisitions on the 'boombox' in my office or on a portable CD player (an old Sony) on the road, but I must say that the difference on my den stereo system (and relatively inexpensive) is substantial - I usually don't offer an opinion until hearing a disc the standard way?  But, just my opinion - Dave  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 29, 2010, 04:25:26 PM
I sometimes find myself enjoying music more in the car than I do at home where I often want to tweak and fuss about with things.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 29, 2010, 04:47:19 PM
I sometimes find myself enjoying music more in the car than I do at home where I often want to tweak and fuss about with things.

Dave - LOL!  ;D  We take a LOT of car trips but I usually bring along non-classical music; the speed and road noise just warrants a limited dynamics for me at least - classical music just varies so much in its dynamic range that I cannot enjoy - a recent example was a trip to Charleston, SC - took along about 8 discs from the box shown below, which I absolutely love in my den, but on the road, just not as fun?  I guess that if I could 'rip' music off a classical CD w/ a more compressed dynamic range that an 'in car' experience would be fine?  Dave  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/MozartVeghSerenades/868742946_Wu5g4-O.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 29, 2010, 05:00:15 PM
Snyprrr - as my son use to say as a boy, are you speaking true?   ;) ;D

I listen to a LOT of my new acquisitions on the 'boombox' in my office or on a portable CD player (an old Sony) on the road, but I must say that the difference on my den stereo system (and relatively inexpensive) is substantial - I usually don't offer an opinion until hearing a disc the standard way?  But, just my opinion - Dave  :)

On a long road trip, I usually bring along such recordings as Ride of the Valkyries - the heavy duty Wagnerian overtures, 1812 Overture, etc. so I can blast the music since I am usually the one who ends up driving.    ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 29, 2010, 05:12:16 PM
On a long road trip, I usually bring along such recordings as Ride of the Valkyries - the heavy duty Wagnerian overtures, 1812 Overture, etc. so I can blast the music since I am usually the one who ends up driving.    ;D

Stuart - when Harpo & I travel, I'm the driver always, i.e. want to get to the destination ASAP!  ;D

Well, we must agree on the 'car' music, so over the years, I've ripped a bunch of CD-Rs of music that is agreeable to both of us, and usually not classical - some country & a lot of popular music from our past (e.g. Simon & Garfunkel, Bob Dylan, Judy Collins, Mel Torme, Amanda McBroom, et al) - Mel is one of her favorite singers - plus, a CR-R can hold up to 70 mins or more from multiple CDS, so pick your favs!  Road 'peace' w/ the wife is the best solution for me -  ;)   :D  Dave 
Title: Does Music Sound Different in the Car?
Post by: snyprrr on May 29, 2010, 09:37:39 PM
I'm doing most of the listening on the road right now, and, I've noticed that the first benefit is that I actually listen to the music! In front of the computer or muted TV, or whatever else, I won't be able to concentrate; but, in the car, somehow (haha) I'm compelled.

I'll be like,... huh, never heard that before...

Plus, I'm always waiting for a storm to break out the Pettersson!! 8) Driving in the rain to Pettersson, hahah, ahhhh....
Title: Re: Does Music Sound Different in the Car?
Post by: greg on May 30, 2010, 04:29:20 AM
Plus, I'm always waiting for a storm to break out the Pettersson!! 8) Driving in the rain to Pettersson, hahah, ahhhh....
Nice.  :D
Even better, an extremely gray day with a tornado in the distance.
Title: Re: Does Music Sound Different in the Car?
Post by: Scarpia on May 30, 2010, 04:32:21 AM
I'm doing most of the listening on the road right now, and, I've noticed that the first benefit is that I actually listen to the music! In front of the computer or muted TV, or whatever else, I won't be able to concentrate; but, in the car, somehow (haha) I'm compelled.

You never considered listening to music without the computer or muted TV?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on May 30, 2010, 08:22:56 AM
I guess that if I could 'rip' music off a classical CD w/ a more compressed dynamic range that an 'in car' experience would be fine?  Dave  :)

I've actually experimented with this Dave and YES!  I found that if you rip your cd to wav, and then fire up audacity, normalize the volume and them compress the dynamic range by 2:1 (radios usually use 10:1) it will sound audibly louder without too much of a compromise of audio quality for the car.  Now you can then burn on a cd or encode the new wavs to mp3, up to you.  But that radio-fy technique works, seriously give it a try. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on May 30, 2010, 09:54:49 AM
I've actually experimented with this Dave and YES!  I found that if you rip your cd to wav, and then fire up audacity, normalize the volume and them compress the dynamic range by 2:1 (radios usually use 10:1) it will sound audibly louder without too much of a compromise of audio quality for the car.  Now you can then burn on a cd or encode the new wavs to mp3, up to you.  But that radio-fy technique works, seriously give it a try. :)

       I think that's a really good idea. Some portable players might have decent limiter settings, so you wouldn't even have to mod the files. But if not you could make up a library of music fine-tuned to sound good in your car, then either burn to disc or load into your portable and run through the aux port.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on May 30, 2010, 12:02:18 PM
the speed and road noise just warrants a limited dynamics for me

I just listen to the radio in the car, usually KPBS or KUSC when I can pick it up.  It's already compressed, and it's nice to have someone else choosing the music.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on June 10, 2010, 07:14:36 AM
Yahoooo!  Blu-ray operas and music here I come!
 
My new HDTV and Blu-ray system is diagrammed below. (The speakers I've had for a while but the other stuff is new.)
 
Very unfortunately this system doesn't provide for SACD of DVD-A playback, so further upgrades might be forthcoming.
 
(http://www.ody.ca/~wbailey/Feanor_HTSystem.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on June 10, 2010, 09:36:14 AM
Congrats, hope you get many many hours of enjoyment on it!

I don't really care about video or surround (that's why my system is strictly stereo--and very, very good at it) but I can relate to the utter satisfaction of piecing all components together and getting to "that" place where you can lose yourself in the music, with or without visuals.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on June 10, 2010, 10:27:01 AM
Congrats, hope you get many many hours of enjoyment on it!

I don't really care about video or surround (that's why my system is strictly stereo--and very, very good at it) but I can relate to the utter satisfaction of piecing all components together and getting to "that" place where you can lose yourself in the music, with or without visuals.
Thank you and it's a magnificent stereo system you have indeed, petrArch.  I'm envious, (although my own stereo setup is more than decent; see the link below).
 
Multi-channel should cannot be easily dismissed.  Given equivalent equipment quality, precise setup, and, needless to say, very good recordings, it will do what stereo simply cannot by way of reproducing a convincing concert hall ambience.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on June 10, 2010, 10:31:54 AM
Multi-channel should cannot be easily dismissed.  Given equivalent equipment quality, precise setup, and, needless to say, very good recordings, it will do what stereo simply cannot by way of reproducing a convincing concert hall ambience.

I generally agree, although the superiority of surround is by no means to be taken for granted.  Some of the Chandos recordings (I'm thinking of Hickox/Vaughan Williams) I have heard strike me as more diffuse and less satisfactory than stereo versions.  But there are others, like the Janowski/Brahms on Pentatone, are breathtaking in their realism.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 10, 2010, 10:32:34 AM
I've heard great things about that Panasonic S2 Feonor, I hope that you enjoy it. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on June 10, 2010, 11:00:42 AM
Thank you and it's a magnificent stereo system you have indeed, petrArch.  I'm envious, (although my own stereo setup is more than decent; see the link below).

Yes, it is a more than decent system indeed. Although nothing really beats big, huge panels ;). Unfortunately the sound of Maggies never really did it for me, and I really tried to like the 20.1.

Multi-channel should cannot be easily dismissed.  Given equivalent equipment quality, precise setup, and, needless to say, very good recordings, it will do what stereo simply cannot by way of reproducing a convincing concert hall ambience.

That is partly true, as you can more easily get it with surround sound. But I can tell you I get a convincing concert hall ambience with my system (and that is by no means exclusive or unique to it, as I also got it on past auditions of other components at certain dealers). It's all about the room.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 10, 2010, 11:53:19 AM
Yahoooo!  Blu-ray operas and music here I come!
 
My new HDTV and Blu-ray system is diagrammed below. (The speakers I've had for a while but the other stuff is new.)
 
Very unfortunately this system doesn't provide for SACD of DVD-A playback, so further upgrades might be forthcoming.
 
(http://www.ody.ca/~wbailey/Feanor_HTSystem.jpg)

     What do you think of the Onkyo? Is it powerful enough? Does it process audio for everything?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on June 10, 2010, 02:23:07 PM
     What do you think of the Onkyo? Is it powerful enough? Does it process audio for everything?
So far I feel that the Onkyo is quite adequate for power -- and I love the Audyssey automated equalization & time correction system: fantastic!  Yes it does the audio for everything, although the way I set things up, it's possible to listen to TV sound from the TV without firing up the receiver.
 
You can check out the Onkyo 508's specs HERE (http://www.onkyo.ca/model.cfm?m=TX-SR508&class=Receiver&p=i).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 11, 2010, 11:38:41 AM
So far I feel that the Onkyo is quite adequate for power -- and I love the Audyssey automated equalization & time correction system: fantastic!  Yes it does the audio for everything, although the way I set things up, it's possible to listen to TV sound from the TV without firing up the receiver.
 
You can check out the Onkyo 508's specs HERE (http://www.onkyo.ca/model.cfm?m=TX-SR508&class=Receiver&p=i).

      Thanks, Feanor, I'm thinking about the 308 for my tiny living room. I don't need much power, just the features.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 11, 2010, 01:24:08 PM
      Thanks, Feanor, I'm thinking about the 308 for my tiny living room. I don't need much power, just the features.

I have that or the 307.  Only need 5.1, it can't do much with hdmi but pass through but that's all I need.  It has audyssey but I find that it does not give accurate results especially with bass.  I just manually tweak it with an spl meter and test tones.

Anyway it's very easy to use (unlike Denon) with great sound, even if it doesn't have a fraction of what a Denon receiver at the same price would offer. :) (my Onkyo replaced a Denon)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 11, 2010, 03:24:43 PM
I have that or the 307.  Only need 5.1, it can't do much with hdmi but pass through but that's all I need.  It has audyssey but I find that it does not give accurate results especially with bass.  I just manually tweak it with an spl meter and test tones.

Anyway it's very easy to use (unlike Denon) with great sound, even if it doesn't have a fraction of what a Denon receiver at the same price would offer. :) (my Onkyo replaced a Denon)

     The 308 does audio, including high rez BD audio. This is something new. In the past you had to read the fine print to find out just where processing starts and pass-thru only leaves off.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on June 11, 2010, 04:26:50 PM
I have been thinking about setting up a 3.0 semi surround, i.e. FL, FR, center and forget the sub and the rear channel to conserve space.  I have 3 doxies at the house who run around and there is little chance that one of them would not knock the rear channel speakers off their stands.  That way, I can at least listen to 3 of the channels on my approximately 250 SACD's.  I will get a 5.1 or 7.1 HT processor and press 2 of my spare power amps in service and one of them can be bridged for the center channel.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on June 12, 2010, 02:19:31 AM
I have that or the 307.  Only need 5.1, it can't do much with hdmi but pass through but that's all I need.  It has audyssey but I find that it does not give accurate results especially with bass.  I just manually tweak it with an spl meter and test tones.

...
I can believe that you might have a bass problem.  As I understand, bass can be difficult to measure in that different locations in a room can give widely different results.  In my own case I believe a little less bass would be a good thing;  if I decide to reduce it a bit, I'll just dial it back on the subwoofer itself rather than meddle with the receiver's equalization settings.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 12, 2010, 02:58:00 AM
I have been thinking about setting up a 3.0 semi surround, i.e. FL, FR, center and forget the sub and the rear channel to conserve space.  I have 3 doxies at the house who run around and there is little chance that one of them would not knock the rear channel speakers off their stands.  That way, I can at least listen to 3 of the channels on my approximately 250 SACD's.  I will get a 5.1 or 7.1 HT processor and press 2 of my spare power amps in service and one of them can be bridged for the center channel.

     I wouldn't get a processor, it's a huge expense. Get a good receiver with pre-outs. You can get a Marantz 4002 for less than $300. (http://www.accessories4less.com/index.php?page=item&id=MARSR4002) The only thing it's missing is HD audio from BD, insignificant in my view. With external power amps this would be a monster setup.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on June 12, 2010, 03:03:49 AM
I have that or the 307.  Only need 5.1, it can't do much with hdmi but pass through but that's all I need.  It has audyssey but I find that it does not give accurate results especially with bass.  I just manually tweak it with an spl meter and test tones.

I can believe that you might have a bass problem.  As I understand, bass can be difficult to measure in that different locations in a room can give widely different results.  In my own case I believe a little less bass would be a good thing;  if I decide to reduce it a bit, I'll just dial it back on the subwoofer itself rather than meddle with the receiver's equalization settings.

Yes, bass can vary quite a bit in a room. Just read up on bass modes (roughly, those frequencies whose wavelengths correspond to multiples of the room dimensions will stand out) and perhaps consider some bass traps (there are various types, some can be discreet and not at all imposing). I had to get a few bass traps in my own room when I moved from a hybrid electrostatic speaker with a cone woofer to a full range one and the results are very good. Untreated bass can skew the perceived frequency response of a system and totally muddy the sound.

Another quick test is basically to move your listening position or simply your ears a couple of feet forward, backward, upward or downward and see if the tonal balance changes. If it does, it means you have standing waves in your room and it is a sign that some treatment is in order.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on June 12, 2010, 03:34:49 AM
     I wouldn't get a processor, it's a huge expense. Get a good receiver with pre-outs. You can get a Marantz 4002 for less than $300. (http://www.accessories4less.com/index.php?page=item&id=MARSR4002) The only thing it's missing is HD audio from BD, insignificant in my view. With external power amps this would be a monster setup.

I am really not into those bass-heavy action movies, which can only be fully appreciated via a full surround sound.  I am not averse to a sub but it has to have a small foot-print.  With 5 stereo systems set up around the house, I should not be taking up more space or I will get some serious gripe from my wife.

Not sure if you have heard of Emotiva, a relatively new audio company that only sells through the internet that has garnered some praises from another forum that is a bit more audio heavy than GMG.  It seems to have a much more reasonably priced HT processor.  The only reason for me to go semi-surround is to fully appreciate my collection of hybrid SACD's - fast approaching 300.  For now, I do not even have an SACD player ...  LOL (http://emotiva.com/)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 12, 2010, 03:03:03 PM
     
     Yes, I know Emotiva. I'd stick with a receiver. It will do the 3 channel thing very well. I looked at the users manual for the Marantz and you can set it up any way you want.

     I wasn't thinking about movies particularly. I use a 2.1 system for everything, movies and music with the balances set to favor music (which works well for movies, too).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on June 12, 2010, 07:11:52 PM
     
     Yes, I know Emotiva. I'd stick with a receiver. It will do the 3 channel thing very well. I looked at the users manual for the Marantz and you can set it up any way you want.

     I wasn't thinking about movies particularly. I use a 2.1 system for everything, movies and music with the balances set to favor music (which works well for movies, too).

You seem to think the HT processor portion of a Marantz HT receiver is better than what Emotiva has to offer.  But then I really do not need the amp.  My separate amps are probably better than the amp that comes with the Marantz receiver.  Besides, Emotiva HT processor is relatively inexpensive compared with most other processors on the market ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 13, 2010, 06:05:59 PM
I can believe that you might have a bass problem.  As I understand, bass can be difficult to measure in that different locations in a room can give widely different results.  In my own case I believe a little less bass would be a good thing;  if I decide to reduce it a bit, I'll just dial it back on the subwoofer itself rather than meddle with the receiver's equalization settings.


Yes, bass can vary quite a bit in a room. Just read up on bass modes (roughly, those frequencies whose wavelengths correspond to multiples of the room dimensions will stand out) and perhaps consider some bass traps (there are various types, some can be discreet and not at all imposing). I had to get a few bass traps in my own room when I moved from a hybrid electrostatic speaker with a cone woofer to a full range one and the results are very good. Untreated bass can skew the perceived frequency response of a system and totally muddy the sound.

Another quick test is basically to move your listening position or simply your ears a couple of feet forward, backward, upward or downward and see if the tonal balance changes. If it does, it means you have standing waves in your room and it is a sign that some treatment is in order.

Boy I'll have to look up info about bass traps!  I had my system sounding muddy with too much bass before, and tinny sounding with not enough.  Getting proper bass response is important but so tricky.  I finally got it right when I used my spl because it now sounds airy.  The midbass was way too much before, and the deep bass was lacking.  Now I have a punch of bass but the dialogue is clear and not easily drowned out. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on June 13, 2010, 08:38:54 PM
Boy I'll have to look up info about bass traps!  I had my system sounding muddy with too much bass before, and tinny sounding with not enough.  Getting proper bass response is important but so tricky.  I finally got it right when I used my spl because it now sounds airy.  The midbass was way too much before, and the deep bass was lacking.  Now I have a punch of bass but the dialogue is clear and not easily drowned out. :)

The free Room EQ Wizard (http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/) program has a real time analyzer that is very helpful for finding the best position for speakers.  This shows frequency response in real time, so you can watch how it changes as you move the speakers around the room (if you use spikes, it helps to take them off for this purpose.)  I use it with an old analog Radio Shack SPL meter.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 14, 2010, 07:18:58 AM
Oh neato!  I'll have to use that! :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 16, 2010, 02:17:57 PM
     I found a good way to balance your subwoofer sound.

     1) Place your sub at the listening position.

     2) Play a bass eq loop (btwn. 20-200 Hz).

     3) Sit at several points around the periphery where a sub might be located. (use a stool or folding chair).

     4) When you find the point where the sonic balance is best (deep and smooth)....

     5) Put the sub there! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/police.gif)

      Now you will have better results balancing the sub with the other speakers because you will have removed the worst bumps and nulls.

      I've never tried this, but it sure sounds like it would be worth trying. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on June 16, 2010, 03:20:38 PM
What do you folks rec. for a flat panel?  Small room (12'x12') and the tv is on its stand on a table so if we get a sound bar, I do not believe it will fit beneath.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on June 16, 2010, 04:15:31 PM
Sorry about that.  I meant a sound system for a flat panel for a room that size, David.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 16, 2010, 04:18:15 PM
Woops deleted then. :)

Are you thinking of 5.1?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on June 16, 2010, 04:22:56 PM
Woops deleted then. :)

Are you thinking of 5.1?

(http://blog.servicemagic.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/mr-mom.jpg)

5.1....5.2.....whatever it takes. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 16, 2010, 04:25:41 PM
Thought so you need a place for that center channel then.  I think you need to think about replacing that table with an entertainment stand, either that or the speaker goes to the side of the tv.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on June 16, 2010, 04:29:23 PM
It does have two cabinets that open in the center and wiring holes in the back.  That may fit the center speaker. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on June 16, 2010, 04:31:42 PM
I wonder how this works?

http://ployer.com/archives/2005/06/samsung-htp1200.php
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on June 16, 2010, 04:37:20 PM
Maybe this, then:


http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/shop_online/home_theater/21channel_systems/cinemate_systems/cinemate_gs_series2/index.jsp
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 16, 2010, 04:38:01 PM
Try Home Theater Mag's list-- http://www.hometheatermag.com/buyersguides/htibs/ (http://www.hometheatermag.com/buyersguides/htibs/)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on June 16, 2010, 05:29:22 PM
Try Home Theater Mag's list-- http://www.hometheatermag.com/buyersguides/htibs/ (http://www.hometheatermag.com/buyersguides/htibs/)

Look out!

http://hometheatermag.com/floorloudspeakers/revel_ultima2_salon2_speaker_system/
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on June 16, 2010, 05:45:14 PM
Classic, Bill!!!  ;D  :D  ;D


(The Mr. Mom reference. Love that movie!!)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 16, 2010, 06:53:49 PM
Look out!

http://hometheatermag.com/floorloudspeakers/revel_ultima2_salon2_speaker_system/

;D

I actually have a soft spot for Revel...I've owned a pair of stand-mount speakers from them for about five years now and continue to marvel at their range and clarity.

Classic stuff.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on June 16, 2010, 07:25:51 PM
;D

I actually have a soft spot for Revel...I've owned a pair of stand-mount speakers from them for about five years now and continue to marvel at their range and clarity.

Classic stuff.

Sweet!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on June 16, 2010, 07:27:08 PM
Ah shucks if Donwyn has one, now I can't make the obligatory "Harry has it in his exercise room" joke! :'(
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 16, 2010, 09:18:18 PM
Ah shucks if Donwyn has one, now I can't make the obligatory "Harry has it in his exercise room" joke! :'(

Thanks for sparing me, David. ;D

It's kind of an occupational hazard on this thread to be seen near Harry anyway so I'm already geared up (no pun) for the slam to my psyche. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on June 17, 2010, 03:20:09 AM
     
     I don't think there's a problem-free solution for the center channel if it's to be used in a hybrid system. Most good centers are side-mounted double woofer versions of the fronts.

     I use an older version of these in my 2.1 system:

     (http://www.psbspeakers.com/Images/Speakers/Alpha1/Alpha_B1.jpg)

     PSB Alpha B1 Monitor

     The matching center speaker is this:

     (http://www.psbspeakers.com//Images/Speakers/Alpha1/Alpha_C1_black.jpg)

     PSB Alpha C1 Center

     In a music only system I'd just use 3 or 4 or 5 Alpha B1s with a sub. It's always preferable to use identical speakers for all channels. But since I would use my system for both music and movies a center speaker that mounts either above or below the monitor would be the only practical choice.

     Something like this might be good:

     (http://www.svsound.com/products/systems/sbs01_familly_300.jpg)

     SVS S-Series SBS-02

     It has the PB10-NSD sub included. For $1,000 you probably can't do much better for a complete 5.1 set. In a small room that sub will be a killer.
     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on November 06, 2010, 06:01:15 AM
Lyrita is usually excellent.  Get Boult's Bax and Holst discs.

Also EMI, RCA, and Decca recordings from the "Golden Age of Stereo" (late 50s - 60s).   There was an EMI series called Artist Profile that was all Golden Age stuff all excellently transferred.

The problem with this Moeran disc as a test disc s that it always sounds pretty fabulous no matter what.  I use it mainly for hearing what's going on in the midbass.

For more extensive testing, I actually like to use recordings that are kind of marginal in some way, just to see what the equipment does or does not for them.

Brought this quote over fro the listening thread.

Your last part of your quote lined up nicely with what my dad and I believe.  A few weeks back we attende for the third year in a row this:

http://audiofest.net/2010/index.php

Most of the systems start at $50K and move up from there (to $250K, I believe).  Almost everyone was running a pre-amp with two mono amps as well.  What we noticed is that each dealer had certain cds that they played for sampling their system.....ones that sounded the "best" for their equipment.  However, we have learned to bring our own music that we enjoy hearing and seeing what the equipment will do with it.  They are more than happy to play our stuff because they get so tired of listening to what the company recommends.  So your last point is extremely important.  Test what you listen to and bring in a wide range of music to test.

On a side note, we noticed that more than half of the dealers were running downloads from a laptop into their system....this was a huge change from the previous year where it was only a few dealers doing this.  Many discussed that they finally thought that the downloaded music sounded just as good as the cds and even vinyl (nooooooooooooooooo)!  Do you believe this is true, or do you think that they are just trying to get younger buyers to fork over big money for high end stuff?

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on November 06, 2010, 08:37:08 AM

     Yes
  Do you believe this is true, or do you think that they are just trying to get younger buyers to fork over big money for high end stuff?

     No, I don't think it's true that they finally thought something or they're trying to get young people to buy something. I think they are trying to get young people to buy things on the basis of sound differences they believe exist, the same differences that the downloads on the laptops give the lie to. They think both, or neither, or whatever. I guess you could say they are "accommodationists". I don't think they're lying, they just don't think through that far. Why should they? Life is good, let's not mess it up. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/grin.gif)

    I think this hifi stuff is fun. It doesn't cease to be fun when the magical beliefs are excised.* I'd love to have a big fearsome sound system, and if I had the money I'm sure I'd spend many thousands on it.

     * Or just stop working.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 06, 2010, 09:21:01 AM
Many discussed that they finally thought that the downloaded music sounded just as good as the cds and even vinyl (nooooooooooooooooo)!  Do you believe this is true, or do you think that they are just trying to get younger buyers to fork over big money for high end stuff?

Downloaded music can definitely sound as good or better than CD or vinyl. Get a good hi-res non-lossy well-recorded download, play it through a streamer and DAC that can handle the sample rate and bit depth and off you go. That said, a good high-end CD player or turntable will still have a marginal advantage if the rest of your system is good enough and you care for that extra level of quality, though it is totally in the realm of diminishing returns.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on November 06, 2010, 10:08:26 AM
 ;D

Any-who, another of the vendors also discussed how nice it was to switch tracks quickly for folks popping in and out of the rooms (150+) in order to accommodate their tastes more easily....however, not much rock and roll played unless you brought it with you.

Oh, and just a side note:  One of the dealers discussed how their system was upgraded with the $2,000 set of cables that they were using.  These things looked like pythons coming out of the back....along with the ceramic holders that lifted the cables off of the ground. >:D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 06, 2010, 10:43:39 AM
Downloaded music can definitely sound as good or better than CD or vinyl.

Indeed, though people generally download MP3 quality files. If they get some nice lossless files, they can sound at least as good as the original CD. I know mastering engineers who have told me that the ripped files sound closer to the master tape than the CD.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on November 06, 2010, 12:15:04 PM
   

Oh, and just a side note:  One of the dealers discussed how their system was upgraded with the $2,000 set of cables that they were using.  These things looked like pythons coming out of the back....along with the ceramic holders that lifted the cables off of the ground. >:D

     I'd have little suspension bridges with miniature depressed people jumping off into a lake with tiny robot fish. How good would that sound? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/evil.gif) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/tongue.gif) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/evil.gif)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on November 06, 2010, 12:28:47 PM
   
     I'd have little suspension bridges with miniature depressed people jumping off into a lake with tiny robot fish. How good would that sound? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/evil.gif) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/tongue.gif) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/evil.gif)

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:gvYf3EOrv2Bg8M:http://image18.webshots.com/19/2/68/17/196126817QEgYub_ph.jpg)

I knew this would reel you in!  :D  Some of the rooms had systems at the high end, but they were not representing the components, just the cables.  Robots are cool....they did not have any of those.  Maybe next year. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on November 06, 2010, 12:56:47 PM


     Yeah, that side note did it. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 06, 2010, 01:18:10 PM
;D

Any-who, another of the vendors also discussed how nice it was to switch tracks quickly for folks popping in and out of the rooms (150+) in order to accommodate their tastes more easily....however, not much rock and roll played unless you brought it with you.

Oh, and just a side note:  One of the dealers discussed how their system was upgraded with the $2,000 set of cables that they were using.  These things looked like pythons coming out of the back....along with the ceramic holders that lifted the cables off of the ground. >:D

Those who sell $2K audio cables are snake oil salesmen IMO ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 06, 2010, 01:25:40 PM
iPod/Computer/Vehicle

I have a home stereo but never use it.  Maybe because it's in the same room as the TV.  ;D

Kill your TV!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 06, 2010, 01:36:45 PM
I have iNothing ...  Not one Apple product at my house ...    ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 06, 2010, 03:07:26 PM
Oh, and just a side note:  One of the dealers discussed how their system was upgraded with the $2,000 set of cables that they were using.  These things looked like pythons coming out of the back....along with the ceramic holders that lifted the cables off of the ground. >:D

My local dealer has similar cables on risers.  I like to tease them about it.  I'm sure it's easy to believe in this stuff when the margins may be keeping the business afloat.  They are using them, BTW, to hook up some PSB Synchrony Ones to a huge BAT amp.  The speakers sound fantastic.  Makes me wish I'd given the Synchrony Ones more consideration.  As much as I love my Vandies, I sometimes wish for a less fussy speaker.

I am using some "audiophile" speaker cables in my own system.  They are the cheapest Audioquest Slate cables terminated by Audio Advisor.  I thought I did hear an improvement, but if real, it may have been because of my crimping and soldering job and the terminators I chose.  If I move my amp, I'll probably go back to making my own cables rather than buy longer runs of Slate.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 06, 2010, 05:54:01 PM
along with the ceramic holders that lifted the cables off of the ground. >:D

Have you tried lifting your cables off the floor? Depending on the cable it might produce a very noticeable difference. It did on mine, when I just out of curiosity grabbed a dozen CD jewel cases, partly opened the lid and got them on their sides so that they stood vertically and finally laid the cables on top.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on November 06, 2010, 05:59:51 PM
Have you tried lifting your cables off the floor? Depending on the cable it might produce a very noticeable difference. It did on mine, when I just out of curiosity grabbed a dozen CD jewel cases, partly opened the lid and got them on their sides so that they stood vertically and finally laid the cables on top.

And what conceivable physical mechanism is there for this?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 06, 2010, 06:03:52 PM
And what conceivable physical mechanism is there for this?

It all depends on how isolating the outer jacket of the cable is. Some cables are designed with little or no isolation.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on November 06, 2010, 06:34:37 PM
I have not lifted mine.  Thir cost is less than your empty cd cases. 8)


Ok.  Next question.  Where do you fall on speaker spikes?

(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk197/sac8d4/GRResearchBrassSpeakerSpikesM8.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on November 06, 2010, 06:59:58 PM

Ok.  Next question.  Where do you fall on speaker spikes?

(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk197/sac8d4/GRResearchBrassSpeakerSpikesM8.jpg)
     
     Tower of London?

     (http://www.bibl.u-szeged.hu/ejszaka/art/imag/German%20Inquisitors%20Question%20a%20Suspected%20Witch%20While%20the%20Instruments%20of%20Torture%20are%20Prepared.jpeg)

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 06, 2010, 07:07:53 PM
I have not lifted mine.  Thir cost is less than your empty cd cases. 8)

Ok.  Next question.  Where do you fall on speaker spikes?

(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk197/sac8d4/GRResearchBrassSpeakerSpikesM8.jpg)

I noticed a difference when moving from non-spiked feet to spikes when I had a pair of Martin Logan Vantages. They ship with both types of feet, the non-spiked ones to be used until the final position of the speakers in the room is found. I was also using a slab of polished granite under each speaker.

Nowadays I don't use spikes on my speakers because their bases were not designed with spikes in mind, and the speakers are too big and too heavy for an improvised solution.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 06, 2010, 07:10:15 PM
I have not lifted mine.  Thir cost is less than your empty cd cases. 8)


Ok.  Next question.  Where do you fall on speaker spikes?

(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk197/sac8d4/GRResearchBrassSpeakerSpikesM8.jpg)

I just go for those supplied by the speaker manufacturer.  If your listening area is carpeted, your speakers must have spikes or your bass will be muffled IMO ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 06, 2010, 07:14:39 PM
I just go for those supplied by the speaker manufacturer.  If your listening area is carpeted, your speakers must have spikes or your bass will be muffled IMO ...

Definitely, you want to the base of the speakers to clear the carpet.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 06, 2010, 07:17:52 PM
Definitely, you want to the base of the speakers to clear the carpet.

But I doubt the kind of metal used to make the spikes should cause any sonic difference, say brass vs. steel.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on November 06, 2010, 07:33:59 PM
It all depends on how isolating the outer jacket of the cable is. Some cables are designed with little or no isolation.

Isolation from what?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 06, 2010, 07:40:42 PM
Isolation from what?

Electrical isolation.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on November 06, 2010, 10:17:20 PM
Electrical isolation.

10 cent per foot zip cord has all of the electrical isolation that could possible be required.  Lifting the cable off the floor would provide an extra one part in a billion isolation.  Does someone claim they can hear that???
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 07, 2010, 12:21:01 AM
Lifting the cable off the floor would provide an extra one part in a billion isolation.

A very good example of pulling numbers off your arse!

Does someone claim they can hear that???

I hear it. My wife heard it without noticing what was done. All anecdotal evidence, but I couldn't care less.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 07, 2010, 12:35:06 AM
Does someone claim they can hear that???

And while we're at it, I can hear differences in speaker cables, interconnects and (blimey!) power cables. Disclaimer: More expensive does not imply better.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on November 07, 2010, 04:59:36 AM
Definitely, you want to the base of the speakers to clear the carpet.

My speakers actually have little feet to keep the base off of the ground.  Bill if you don't have feet on your speakers, those little spikes are a good idea. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on November 07, 2010, 05:26:35 AM
A very good example of pulling numbers off your arse!

No sir, off a digital volt meter.  Many times I have used a DVM to check continuity of a circuit.  If you measure the resistance between leads of a lamp cord you will read "infinity" on you meter, meaning it is over a billion Ohms.  Your speaker is 8 Ohms, maybe as low as 4 Ohms.  That means for every amp going into your speaker, less than in a billionth of an amp is leaking through the insulator.  If you have your cable on the floor, there may be another 1 part in a billion that can get to the floor.  If you suspend the cable, you eliminate the possible of that 1 part in a billion leaking to the floor.   That's where my number comes from. 

I'm assuming, of course, that your $2000 interconnect is as well insulated as 10 cent per foot lamp chord.  That may be an incorrect assumption, however.  Probably the deliberately leave the insulation off so they can selll you the cable suspenders for $100 each.   ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 07, 2010, 05:37:43 AM
I'm assuming, of course, that your $2000 interconnect is as well insulated as 10 cent per foot lamp chord.  That may be an incorrect assumption, however.  Probably the deliberately leave the insulation off so they can selll you the cable suspenders for $100 each.   ;D

And the pulling of numbers continues :D. I really have no idea where you got those from.

Reducing everything to what is measured (and measurable) assumes it provides a complete description of the behavior of the system. I wonder, then, how a lot of equipment and accessories that measures the same can sound so different, or how equipment that measures so much better can sound so much worse.

But whatever, I am not trying to convince anyone. A simple way to try whether it works on one's system is to do what I described. Doesn't come cheaper than that.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on November 07, 2010, 05:57:58 AM
And the pulling of numbers continues :D. I really have no idea where you got those from.

I measured them with suitable equipment.

Quote
Reducing everything to what is measured (and measurable) assumes it provides a complete description of the behavior of the system. I wonder, then, how a lot of equipment and accessories that measures the same can sound so different, or how equipment that measures so much better can sound so much worse.

Measurements made by the manufacturer are not measurements, they are advertising propaganda.  Measurements you have made yourself are measurements.

I have certainly confirmed this in listening.  When I first installed my speakers, before I decided where I wanted them I had them connected through entire 50 foot lengths of zip chord.  When I decided where they would go, I cut I trimmed the cable to the required length, about 5 feet.   Sounded identical.  If 50 feet sounds the same as 5 feet of the same cable, then the cable has no influence on sound.  I did hear subtle but noticeable differences playing the same CD on a different CD player, or using a different model power amplifier (NAD 2140 vs NAD 2200, vs Sony STR-DA2ES)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 07, 2010, 07:09:18 AM
My speakers actually have little feet to keep the base off of the ground.  Bill if you don't have feet on your speakers, those little spikes are a good idea. :)

What if the speakers are on stands?

The stands are on a concrete floor, covered by linoleum. I have four rubber feet under each stand and also some rubber foam between each speaker and stand.

(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1070/stereocomplete.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on November 07, 2010, 07:15:56 AM


I hear it. My wife heard it without noticing what was done. All anecdotal evidence, but I couldn't care less.

     If you don't care why tell anyone? I saw an anecdotal ghost yesterday, I don't care what you think but you should know. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)

     
Quote
Reducing everything to what is measured (and measurable) assumes it provides a complete description of the behavior of the system.

     Isn't that a safe assumption after a century of experience with music recording, amplifier and speaker technologies and 30 years of digital recording and playback? What unmeasured influences need to be taken into account, given what we know about vanishing differences under rigorous testing? Has anecdotal evidence acquired a new authority? How do you know that you're immune to biases that trip up everyone else? That seems like quite a bit not to care about. I don't think I could do that.

    Given the caveat about published specs versus real world performance measurements should match SQ perceptions fairly well under controlled conditions. There are stray biases all over the place that crop up when you "let them in", so to speak. Sometimes I hear a difference when the humidity goes way up. Is there an explanation? I don't know. It might be spurious, it might be the way I feel when everything is sticky. Could it be the difference in sound propagation in heavier air? I don't really have any idea. One thing I won't say, though, is that nothing measurable bears on it.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on November 07, 2010, 07:27:37 AM
What if the speakers are on stands?

The stands are on a concrete floor, covered by linoleum. I have four rubber feet under each stand and also some rubber foam between each speaker and stand.


Well hey that's cool George. :)  I was thinking of towers. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 07, 2010, 07:32:58 AM
What if the speakers are on stands?

The stands are on a concrete floor, covered by linoleum. I have four rubber feet under each stand and also some rubber foam between each speaker and stand.

(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1070/stereocomplete.jpg)

I think the discussion has been primarily focused on floor standers.  Bookshelf or satellite speakers have to go on stands for sure.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 07, 2010, 07:34:30 AM
I think the discussion has been primarily focused on floor standers.  Bookshelf or satellite speakers have to go on stands for sure.

Right, I was just curious how important vibration isolation is in the case of stands.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on November 07, 2010, 07:39:38 AM
Right, I was just curious how important vibration isolation is in the case of stands.

Speaker stands are designed to handle the vibrations well, that's why you spend money on them instead of dropping bookshelves and satellites on a table. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 07, 2010, 07:41:56 AM
Right, I was just curious how important vibration isolation is in the case of stands.

A few years ago, I picked up a bag of fine sand (the kind that is safe to be used in playpen) at Home Depot to fill up the hollow tubing between the floor and the plate where my bookshelf speaker rests as recommended by the stand manufacturer.  The sand should help dampen the vibration.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 07, 2010, 07:46:20 AM
Speaker stands are designed to handle the vibrations well, that's why you spend money on them instead of dropping bookshelves and satellites on a table. :)

Kewl.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 07, 2010, 03:59:07 PM
I measured them with suitable equipment.

I was talking about the purported $2000 interconnect and $100/ea cable suspenders you said I had.

Measurements made by the manufacturer are not measurements, they are advertising propaganda.  Measurements you have made yourself are measurements.

Who said these were measurements made by the manufacturers?

The canonical example is how bad tubes measure in terms of distortion when compared to solid state components. Yet tubes sound better in general. I know all about even-harmonic and odd-harmonic distortion, but throwing out a single number like you did doesn't tell the whole story--comparable to asserting this ss amp has 0.0007% distortion, and this tube amp has 1% distortion; therefore the ss amp is better.

I have certainly confirmed this in listening.  When I first installed my speakers, before I decided where I wanted them I had them connected through entire 50 foot lengths of zip chord.  When I decided where they would go, I cut I trimmed the cable to the required length, about 5 feet.   Sounded identical.  If 50 feet sounds the same as 5 feet of the same cable, then the cable has no influence on sound.  I did hear subtle but noticeable differences playing the same CD on a different CD player, or using a different model power amplifier (NAD 2140 vs NAD 2200, vs Sony STR-DA2ES)

Well, you've confirmed that length makes no difference on zip cord when your source plays music through your amp and speakers. But the fact that you heard a subtle difference with a different amp and source means not all is lost :D. You might still see the light one day.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 07, 2010, 04:22:20 PM
     If you don't care why tell anyone?

I'm not trying to convince anyone. I merely described an experiment that is cheap to do and, who knows, might provide some results.
     
Isn't that a safe assumption after a century of experience with music recording, amplifier and speaker technologies and 30 years of digital recording and playback? What unmeasured influences need to be taken into account, given what we know about vanishing differences under rigorous testing? Has anecdotal evidence acquired a new authority? How do you know that you're immune to biases that trip up everyone else? That seems like quite a bit not to care about. I don't think I could do that.

So I gather you are saying everything that is to be discovered and known about analog and digital recording and sound reproduction technologies has been already discovered?

You know, the everyone else in your reasoning is the tell-tale sign of undue generalization. Other people conducted the same experiments and found similar results to mine, so I am pretty sure I am not fantasizing.

What I don't care about is to convince other people through argument. Just do it if you are curious to see what you might get. It's an easy experiment. If you don't want to do it, then that's fine, it's your prerogative.

    Given the caveat about published specs versus real world performance measurements should match SQ perceptions fairly well under controlled conditions. There are stray biases all over the place that crop up when you "let them in", so to speak. Sometimes I hear a difference when the humidity goes way up. Is there an explanation? I don't know. It might be spurious, it might be the way I feel when everything is sticky. Could it be the difference in sound propagation in heavier air? I don't really have any idea. One thing I won't say, though, is that nothing measurable bears on it.

My point with what is measurable was simply to say that the usual reductionist view that equipment x is a 0.01 and equipment y is a 0.02 therefore one is better than the other. Better at what? Clearly at that particular quantity it seems, because there are other behaviors (or other numbers) that cannot possibly be encoded or represented by that performance metric alone.

Scarpia was saying "I measured resistance on the cord and obtained result x therefore I assert y in all circumstances". Well, what about inductance and capacitance? What about the behavior with a signal at 50 Hz going through it? And 500 Hz? And 5000 Hz? And 15000 Hz? And all values in-between? And in a high-RF environment?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 07, 2010, 05:50:34 PM
What if the speakers are on stands?

The stands are on a concrete floor, covered by linoleum. I have four rubber feet under each stand and also some rubber foam between each speaker and stand.

(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1070/stereocomplete.jpg)

I'd worry more about the untreated first reflection points on the wall behind the speakers (pretty much the areas to the left and right of the kitchen entrance) and the floor.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 07, 2010, 05:56:19 PM
I'd worry more about the untreated first reflection points on the wall behind the speakers (pretty much the areas to the left and right of the kitchen entrance) and the floor.

There's a rug on the floor that is just out of view in that photo.

How would you treat the wall behind the speakers? BTW, the ports are aimed so that they fire all the way back to the wall.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 07, 2010, 08:45:10 PM
How would you treat the wall behind the speakers?

Two 4'x2'x4" ATS Acoustics (http://www.atsacoustics.com/) panels.  They also have materials for DIYers. 

Quote
BTW, the ports are aimed so that they fire all the way back to the wall.

You're speakers are far enough out from the wall that the rear firing ports shouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 08, 2010, 03:24:38 AM
Two 4'x2'x4" ATS Acoustics (http://www.atsacoustics.com/) panels.  They also have materials for DIYers. 

Thanks. Can you tell me what the panels will do for the sound?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on November 08, 2010, 04:55:16 AM
Thanks. Can you tell me what the panels will do for the sound?

They will provide some absorption of midrange frequencies. I wouldn't worry that much about covering the walls with such panels. The rest of the wall has irregular furniture and the rug you said you have should be enough to mitigate the problem of bare walls and too live a room. You can do a quick check by hanging a curtain or some heavy cloth like a rug and see if that makes a difference. It might actually deaden the sound a bit too much. If that is the case, you can improve matters by using diffusers, either by getting specialized panels for that (not absorbers) or some dense plants.

In my case, I found that absorption panels on the walls behind the speakers are actually detrimental to the overall airiness and sense of space of the sound--and they are planar (dipoles), so they radiate as much energy forward as they do backward.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 08, 2010, 04:57:26 AM
 Thanks petrArch!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 08, 2010, 02:22:43 PM
Thanks. Can you tell me what the panels will do for the sound?

Treating the front wall first reflection points can improve image specificity.  I would at least move the TV rack away from that position.


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 08, 2010, 03:51:10 PM
Treating the front wall first reflection points can improve image specificity.  I would at least move the TV rack away from that position.

The picture doesn't show it well, but the speaker front extends just past the front of the TV/Stereo rack.

I plan to get something shorter and less deep in the future, though.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 08, 2010, 04:26:31 PM
The picture doesn't show it well, but the speaker front extends just past the front of the TV/Stereo rack.

I plan to get something shorter and less deep in the future, though.

That close it is probably skewing the soundstage.  I think if you move the equipment and CD racks you'll notice a difference.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 08, 2010, 04:46:39 PM
That close it is probably skewing the soundstage.  I think if you move the equipment and CD racks you'll notice a difference.

Unfortunately I have no space. I can only get a smaller, less deep rack to get the TV and stereo lower and closer to the wall.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 08, 2010, 05:21:03 PM
Unfortunately I have no space. I can only get a smaller, less deep rack to get the TV and stereo lower and closer to the wall.

I understand that, having lived in small apartments/studios.  If you still want to get the best out of the system, careful speaker placement is more effective than any other change you can make.  You might try arranging things along a different wall.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 08, 2010, 05:30:03 PM
I understand that, having lived in small apartments/studios.  If you still want to get the best out of the system, careful speaker placement is more effective than any other change you can make.  You might try arranging things along a different wall.

Thanks, but one wall is a closet and the front door, another is all windows and the other one is CD shelving, floor to ceiling.  :-\  I'm in a studio apartment.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 08, 2010, 06:53:07 PM
the other one is CD shelving, floor to ceiling.

Aha!  Nothing some hefty bags and trip to the dump can't cure.   8)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: George on November 08, 2010, 07:07:28 PM
Aha!  Nothing some hefty bags and trip to the dump can't cure.   8)

No way, Jose.  :P
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on June 07, 2011, 02:36:22 AM


  Hello all,

  I would like to know how frequently everyone here upgrades their audio system?  What do you do with the existing one you have? Is it easy to sell a used stereo system?

  I can't help but feel that my current audio system (Monitor Audio BR1 speakers with a Denon RCD-M38DAB CD Receiver) is lacking in some way.  I would like to get more out of my Verdi/Wagner operas so I have been looking at floor standing speakers/amplifiers/cd players.   

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on June 07, 2011, 04:45:23 AM
Is it easy to sell a used stereo system?

Check audiogon. I'm not planning to upgrade my system any time soon, though the next component in it I would upgrade would be the amp (to a pair of monoblocks, and probably tube).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on June 07, 2011, 07:27:48 AM
I don't sell stuff, so it tends to accumulate.  The only exception is the stuff my dealer took in trade for an upgrade.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on June 07, 2011, 12:22:46 PM
Check audiogon. I'm not planning to upgrade my system any time soon, though the next component in it I would upgrade would be the amp (to a pair of monoblocks, and probably tube).

Thank you for referring me to audiogon! I didn't know speciality sites like this existed for used stereo systems.

 I clicked on the link you posted to see your stereo system and I am very impressed with your speakers! They must produce "walls" of sound!

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Scarpia on June 07, 2011, 12:31:44 PM

  Hello all,

  I would like to know how frequently everyone here upgrades their audio system?  What do you do with the existing one you have? Is it easy to sell a used stereo system?

I've sold unwanted stuff on ebay in the past.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on July 03, 2011, 04:07:20 AM
My new Honda Fit came with an mp3 dock and for the heck of it, I just stuck a cd in the player that was mp3 format and it played perfectly!  Are new cd players for the home like this as well?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: karlhenning on July 03, 2011, 04:17:40 AM
My new Honda Fit came with an mp3 dock and for the heck of it, I just stuck a cd in the player that was mp3 format and it played perfectly!  Are new cd players for the home like this as well?

My Cambridge Soundworks clock radio does so.  And while I haven't tried it in that capacity, it seems our DVD player does, too (haven't tried, because we've got it just hooked up to the TV, not to any sound system, per se).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on July 03, 2011, 05:15:08 AM
I am considering one of the following three amps/integrated for my home office.

(http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/Assets/Images/Products/MA6300/XL_MA6300_D.jpg)

(http://www.audioresearch.com/images/m/vs115.jpg)

(http://www.spearitsound.com/cj/cj_images/LP70S.jpg)

as my current CJ MF-2500A 250 watts/ch power amp is too powerful for a 10 x 10 room.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on July 03, 2011, 05:34:45 AM
I am considering one of the following three amps/integrated for my home office.

I can't tell what that middle one is.

You might consider Rogue gear.  They provide a lot of audio quality for the buck
(http://www.rogueaudio.com/images/enlarged/CronosFront.jpg)

http://www.rogueaudio.com/Products_Titan.htm#Cronos (http://www.rogueaudio.com/Products_Titan.htm#Cronos) (they also have another integrated called the "Tempest").
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on July 03, 2011, 05:42:34 AM
I can't tell what that middle one is.

You might consider Rogue gear.  They provide a lot of audio quality for the buck
(http://www.rogueaudio.com/images/enlarged/CronosFront.jpg)

http://www.rogueaudio.com/Products_Titan.htm#Cronos (http://www.rogueaudio.com/Products_Titan.htm#Cronos) (they also have another integrated called the "Tempest").

The middle one is Audio Research.  I can actually buy Rogue directly from the manufacturer since the closest dealership is over 100 miles from my house.  Everyone of these amps (including Rogue) are American made.
Electrocompaniet is interesting but after-sale support may be spotty since it does not have many dealerships in the US.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on July 03, 2011, 08:24:20 AM
I am considering one of the following three amps/integrated for my home office.

(http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/Assets/Images/Products/MA6300/XL_MA6300_D.jpg)

(http://www.audioresearch.com/images/m/vs115.jpg)

(http://www.spearitsound.com/cj/cj_images/LP70S.jpg)

as my current CJ MF-2500A 250 watts/ch power amp is too powerful for a 10 x 10 room.

Respectively:
  Personally in a small room I'd go with the an integrated just because of the smaller footprint. Also personally I prefer transparent, neutral, timbre-accurate amps versus warm, full-bodied, organic sounding amps -- but chacun à son goût, eh?
 
Fitting my criteria, I'd look seriously at the Bel Canto C5i; it include a built-in DAC and is a bit cheaper as a bonus. see HERE (http://www.belcantodesign.com/Belcanto_C5i_DAC_Integrated_Amplifier.html).
 
(http://www.belcantodesign.com/images/dac1_5.jpg)
 
See a couple of review of the C5i ...
 
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue55/c5i.htm (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue55/c5i.htm)
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/belcanto2/1.html (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/belcanto2/1.html)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Jay F on July 03, 2011, 09:04:32 AM
I'm thinking about getting a pair of those cute little B&W MM-1 speakers for my computer, as it is where I do 90% of my listening. They're $499.99. I don't see how to attach a picture, so here is a link: http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/iPod_and_Computer_Speakers/iPod_and_Computer_Speakers/MM-1/Product-Details.html

If they sound as good as they look, I'll be very happy.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Jay F on July 03, 2011, 09:07:57 AM
I am considering one of the following three amps/integrated for my home office.

(http://www.spearitsound.com/cj/cj_images/LP70S.jpg)
I always like the conrad-johnson look, Stuart.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on July 03, 2011, 11:38:00 AM
I can actually buy Rogue directly from the manufacturer

They are very nice to deal with over the phone.

I'm using their M-180 monoblocks in my main system (shown here with the cover off).

(http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/110rogue.2.jpg)

It's not going to win any beauty contests, but the build quality is very high.

(http://www.belcantodesign.com/images/dac1_5.jpg)

A tube pre and tube amps put out a lot of heat, so I've been thinking of something like a Wyred4Sound or Bel Canto integrated, which would run cool because of their class D amplification, for the summer months (it can get up to 110F here).  Unfortunately, I don't have any way to hear any of this equipment before buying.

Maybe I should just go to the beach instead.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on July 03, 2011, 11:41:45 AM
I always like the conrad-johnson look, Stuart.

I already have 2 CJ amps but they are both solid state. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on July 03, 2011, 11:45:18 AM
They are very nice to deal with over the phone.

I'm using their M-180 monoblocks in my main system (shown here with the cover off).

(http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/110rogue.2.jpg)

It's not going to win any beauty contests, but the build quality is very high.

A tube pre and tube amps put out a lot of heat, so I've been thinking of something like a Wyred4Sound or Bel Canto integrated, which would run cool because of their class D amplification, for the summer months (it can get up to 110F here).  Unfortunately, I don't have any way to hear any of this equipment before buying.

Maybe I should just go to the beach instead.

I have been using a SS amp/tube preamp combo for a few years.  Hooking up a tube CDP to this combo leads to some fabulous sound.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on July 03, 2011, 12:07:10 PM
I have been using a SS amp/tube preamp combo for a few years.  Hooking up a tube CDP to this combo leads to some fabulous sound.

What SS amp?

I do have a Bryston 3B-SST, a 150W solid state amp.  But last time I hooked it up I was rather disappointed with the sound compared to the Rogues.  The Bryston does give you more treble detail, but, oddly, sounds less transparent.  Before that I had a big BAT VK-250SE solid state amp (same power rating as the Bryston, but with a massive power supply that would dim the lights in the rest of the house when turned on), but I traded that in for the Rogues.  The BAT actually ran nearly as hot as one of the Rogues.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on October 09, 2011, 01:20:19 PM
That time of the year again....

(http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue52/images/Pic%201--RMAF%20logo.jpg)

(http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/feature_reviews/show_reports/2007-12-rocky-mountain-audio-fest-18.jpg)

Looking forward to this seminar:

http://audiofest.net/2011/event_listing_item.php?articles_id=100&newsdeskPath=3?Sid=628367cd7f9313698eb34a3504c59610
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on October 09, 2011, 01:21:56 PM
What SS amp?

I do have a Bryston 3B-SST, a 150W solid state amp.  But last time I hooked it up I was rather disappointed with the sound compared to the Rogues.  The Bryston does give you more treble detail, but, oddly, sounds less transparent.  Before that I had a big BAT VK-250SE solid state amp (same power rating as the Bryston, but with a massive power supply that would dim the lights in the rest of the house when turned on), but I traded that in for the Rogues.  The BAT actually ran nearly as hot as one of the Rogues.

SS=Solid State
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on October 09, 2011, 01:23:13 PM
That time of the year again....

(http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue52/images/Pic%201--RMAF%20logo.jpg)

(http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/feature_reviews/show_reports/2007-12-rocky-mountain-audio-fest-18.jpg)

Looking forward to this seminar:

http://audiofest.net/2011/event_listing_item.php?articles_id=100&newsdeskPath=3?Sid=628367cd7f9313698eb34a3504c59610

Bill,   These speakers look as heavy as an upright piano ...   :o
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on October 09, 2011, 01:28:08 PM
Well, they should, Stuart. ;D

http://mbl-usa.com/Browse.aspx/392/Speakers
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on October 09, 2011, 01:36:40 PM
This would be a fun seminar with a number of the members here:

http://audiofest.net/2011/event_listing_item.php?articles_id=107&newsdeskPath=3?Sid=cc25cd06bad529dfc2303a38f4f1e2d0
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 09, 2011, 04:42:57 PM
Bill,   These speakers look as heavy as an upright piano ...   :o

50 kilos in dilithium crystals alone.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 09, 2011, 05:02:54 PM
SS=Solid State

Yeah, but what model?

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on October 09, 2011, 05:21:02 PM
Yeah, but what model?

MF-2500A
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on October 09, 2011, 05:57:34 PM
(http://www.salksound.com/home_htm_files/139.jpg)


After six years and several electronics upgrades, I decided it was time to retire my Joseph Audio RM25s for something better.  But speaker prices have always bothered me more than any other component.  They are almost all ripoffs, with most speakers using OTS drivers and electrical components.  The few companies that do it all, like Dynaudio, Monitor Audio, B&W, KEF, and Focal all strike me as a wee bit pricey for what you get, KEF excepted, though some Dynaudios do use the wonderful sounding Esotar2 tweeter.

After some looking, I found Salk Sound, and ordered a pair of Song Towers as a test.  The speakers, which sell for $1800 base (though cost more in Bubinga finish as pictured, which is what I opted for), have more expensive components than some speakers, including the Josephs, that sell for $4K+.  They have garnered some good reviews, so I figured why not.  I'm going to use them in my main system to see if Salk delivers, and if so I'm going to go further up the range and will move these to my bedroom system.  If they don't meet my expectations, I'll still move these to my bedroom system and I'll probably opt for nicer Josephs, though the new Perspective is really just a Seas Delling kit all decked out in a pretty cabinet.  Perhaps the best thing about Salk is they will customize any speaker any way I want.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 09, 2011, 07:33:09 PM
Bubinga finish as pictured,

Unusual to find such a gorgeous finish near that price.

In the US most of the brands you mentioned would be inflated in price by exchange rates and the importer's cut (mostly the latter, really). 

Have you auditioned PSB speakers?

I haven't done any speaker shopping for a few years, but beside Vandersteen, the only other brand I liked at the time was Aerial.   Well, and some Quad electrostatics that were just way too big for my place.  But I never heard KEF.   I gave up on B&W; they seem quite overrated (I was auditioning the 803/804 models).  Magnepan's (3.6?) sounded disastrous in the shop, but that might have been the dealer's fault.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on October 09, 2011, 09:36:13 PM
MF-2500A
Me too.....
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on October 10, 2011, 05:05:14 AM
  But I never heard KEF.   I gave up on B&W; they seem quite overrated (I was auditioning the 803/804 models).  Magnepan's (3.6?) sounded disastrous in the shop, but that might have been the dealer's fault.

B&W prettiefies the sound too much for me. It sounds wonderful and after two minutes I become suspicious and after ten minutes I feel cheated on.

My thing right now is Thiel, especially the small but powerful SCS4 (http://www.thielaudio.com/THIEL_Site05/Pages/models/Current_Models/SCS4/SCS4_main.shtml). A steal in the US, compared to the prices of other speakers that match it (or lose out to it). Very neutral, extremely precise (which makes it very explosive and punchy) and only a little 'stiff at the hips' when it comes to non-classical, groovy music where it just isn't able to take the leash a little looser.  Looks terrible in Natural Cherry, but excellent in the Dark Cherry and Black Ash finishes.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on October 10, 2011, 07:02:23 AM
Me too.....

No new equipments in the near term for me, as I have shelled out $25K so far this year in vet care for my three dachshunds and the two boys did not make it while the girl is so far battling cancer successfully.  The Euro debt crisis has not helped as my portfolios have taken some major hits ...     :( 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on October 10, 2011, 07:08:40 AM
Well, and some Quad electrostatics that were just way too big for my place.  But I never heard KEF. 

KEF and Quad are now both Chinese companies.  Who knows how the Chinese are running their operations today.  At any rate, I refuse to pay top dollar for gears made in China and this is a personal philosophy.  There are still many excellent US-made speakers at good price points and I see no reasons to look beyond our shores, the same goes for electronics ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on October 10, 2011, 07:41:28 AM
Have you auditioned PSB speakers? 

I gave up on B&W; they seem quite overrated



I've tried some PSBs, but not the Synchronys.  I'm not sure they have the sound I am looking for, and they have metal dome tweeters, which I'm not generally a fan of, though the Focal Beryllium models have an amazing high end (but a disappointing low end).  B&W is an interesting company.  Their really cheap speakers like the older DM301s (my son now uses my old pair) are remarkable performers at the $300-ish range and can play insanely loud for such a small speaker.  But after a couple cheap models, you have to go up to the 802s before good sound returns.  The 803/804/805s are poor performers at their price point, but when the midrange is in the synthetic compartment of the highest end models, everything sounds good.  The speakers are too big, too ugly, and still too expensive for what you get, though.  As to Maggies, I heard some in a showroom and they sounded bad, and a friend of mine has some, and they sounded, well, bad, so it just may be Maggies.  That's my guess.

Over the past three years or so I've sampled not only most of the speakers available in the local area, but I also drove to the nearest bigger city to hear more speakers.  I was not impressed with what I heard.  I tried the lauded Wilson Sophias, and found the highs very detailed but very harsh, the mids not worthy of the price, and the bass surprisingly weak for a speaker that is supposed to have great bass.  Of course, the other two run-ins with Wilsons I had were not so good.  The Watt Puppies had a cartoonishly large soundstage with oversized bass instruments, and the old CUBs are literally the worst sounding speakers I have ever heard.  I do not exaggerate one bit when I say I would rather listen to $10 computer speakers.  The lovely Sonus Faber Homage (both Amati and Stradivari) floorstanders, like pretty much all Sonus floorstanders, had heavily colored, woody bass, and were and are way outside my price range.  I don’t know what the new, post-Franco Serblin Sonuses sound like, but who wants a Sonus not designed by Franco Serblin? 

The “problem” with the Josephs is that they balance everything so well, that it has been hard to find a speaker in a sane price range ($10K or less) that outperform them noticeably in every regard.  Sure I can find speakers that do bass a bit better, or perhaps the highs, maybe midrange clarity, but never all of them together.  For the most part I was happy, until this past summer when I upgraded my main amp, and then finally the speakers’ weaknesses started to come out.  The highs can now sound a bit rough on some recordings, and the resolution of the whole system is limited most by the speakers now.  But when I see the price of the Joseph Perspective – $12K for a (crossover) modified Seas Delling kit, where the drivers and crossover can be purchased separately for $1400 – I balk.  After doing some looking at DIY sites, it’s amazing how cheap some components are.  For every $1K a pop Esotar2 tweeter, there are five or more $35-$45 tweeters being put in high end speakers.  I heard a decent pair of Aerials a year to two ago, and they were around $11K if memory serves, but component prices were at most $2K.  I have no problem with the companies involved making money – and they aren’t exactly giant firms for the most part, so they aren’t making a lot – but it just bugs me to see something that I could conceivably build with one of my brothers-in-law costing so much.  At least it’s not as bad as the pricing for Avalon speakers, which do sound good, but have an even more outrageous markup, even accounting for the crazy expensive Accuton drivers they use. 

When I found both Salk Sound and Tyler Acoustics, I was intrigued.  Here are companies that use top of the line OTS drivers – a lot of Seas Excel drivers, Hiquphon tweeters, Accuton drivers (!), as well as others – and build beautiful cabinets, and who will customize the speakers as much as the buyer wants, which also means tweaking the crossover to accommodate the changes to the extent possible.  Now I can get $2K in components for a bit over $4K.  Much more reasonable.  Of course, great components do not guarantee good sound, but it was Dick Olsher’s praise for the Salks that finally convinced me that the company has its stuff together.  That, and Jim Salk’s no BS feedback.  When I emailed the company, he was the guy who answered.  When I inquired about a crossover upgrade, he suggested I not buy it since he could not hear a difference.  When I asked about a regular high gloss finish, he recommended against it in a detailed response.  And on top of all of that, his firm sends a copy of measurements for each speaker when they ship.  Again, none of this means they will sound good, but it makes me think they have a pretty good chance of sounding good.  (Salk’s experience in the recording studio also makes me think they may sound good.)  And they’re American made.  I’m no economic nationalist, but I do like spending money on products made here when it makes sense to do so.  If they don’t work, I can always spend more on Josephs, which I know sound good. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on October 10, 2011, 08:20:56 AM
B&W prettiefies the sound too much for me. It sounds wonderful and after two minutes I become suspicious and after ten minutes I feel cheated on.

My thing right now is Thiel, especially the small but powerful SCS4 (http://www.thielaudio.com/THIEL_Site05/Pages/models/Current_Models/SCS4/SCS4_main.shtml). A steal in the US, compared to the prices of other speakers that match it (or lose out to it). Very neutral, extremely precise (which makes it very explosive and punchy) and only a little 'stiff at the hips' when it comes to non-classical, groovy music where it just isn't able to take the leash a little looser.  Looks terrible in Natural Cherry, but excellent in the Dark Cherry and Black Ash finishes.

I did try Thiel.  The model would have been whatever they had for about $4k several years ago (may have been the 2.4).  I liked them overall, but they did seem notably tipped up in the upper midrange, which warms strings up nicely, but I thought it might be tiring after a while.  Also I simply refuse to step foot in the local Thiel dealer, Sound Company in San Diego, so I haven't heard their newer models.

I also tried some Sonus Fabers (Grand Piano, I think), and while they were very pleasant to listen to, they had the very colored bass as Todd described.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on October 26, 2011, 08:58:24 AM
I'm back into multi-channel sound after an equipment failure a couple of years ago deprived me of the ability to play m/c SACDs.
 
I very recently got a Sony BDP-S580 that can play SACDs and deliver a hi-rez signal via HDMI to a receiver. You can select whether the signal is to be passes as DSD or PCM.  My receiver will handle only PCM, but the good news is that receiver's full DSP capability, (time delay, equalization), can be applied to the input PCM stream. The result is great even though my equipment is just low-mid range in price.
 
Multi-channel sound from a properly set up system will give you an approximation of live concert hall sound that stereo simply cannot ever do.
 
See my configuration ...
 
(http://www.ody.ca/~wbailey/Feanor_HTSystem.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Roberto on October 28, 2011, 12:05:40 AM
See my configuration ...
 
http://www.ody.ca/~wbailey/Feanor_HTSystem.jpg (http://www.ody.ca/~wbailey/Feanor_HTSystem.jpg)
:o
I've expected a photo of your room.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on October 28, 2011, 07:04:04 AM
:o
I've expected a photo of your room.  :)

So you got both more and less than you expected  :D ...
 
(http://www.ody.ca/~wbailey/Feanor_HTSystem.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on November 01, 2011, 08:20:57 AM
(http://www.wooaudio.com/images/fullsize/wa6_right_bk.jpg)

A couple weeks ago, a friend of mine bought himself a new headphone amp, the Woo Audio WA6.  It’s a tube design.  (An SET, to be exact.)  I don’t like tubes.  He assured me that it sounded good, and that’s before breaking in.  (For convenience, let’s assume break-in is real.)  I said nuh-uh.  He said uh-huh.  Anyway, he took off last week for about a week and asked me if I wouldn’t mind breaking in the unit for him.  This would also give me a chance to hear how poorly tubes handle headphones.

Tubes sound splendid with headphones.  There’s no impedance matching to worry about, for the most part.  There are no big, unruly bass drivers to control.  Power output is basically irrelevant.  As a result, I must say that I have been converted to tubes when it comes to driving headphones.  This somewhat affordable amp (about $600) does pretty much everything right.  Bass is well nigh perfect – which is much different from regular tube amps.  Highs are still a bit rolled off, but that may actually be a good thing.  The midrange is lush and beautiful – all that tube goodness, or distortion, take your pick – with nary a hint of glare.  Everything sounds smooth and groovy.  When paired with my 600 Ohm Beyerdynamic DT 880s, the Woo delivers glorious sound that I can listen to for hours at a stretch.  It even makes me want to listen to non-classical music.  Jazz sounds especially fine, with saxes sounding better than normal.  The only drawback I can find is that solo piano lacks a bit of bite when compared to my main system, but it’s easy enough to adjust to. 

So perhaps a Woo will end up in my system soon, or soon-ish.  The WA6 sounds much better than my Schiit Asgard, and as with Schiit, Woo is hand-made right here in the good old US of A.  Hell, they even hand-wind the transformers in their NYC shop.  Build quality is at least equal to my standard Naim "Classic" series gear.  I want one.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 01, 2011, 09:27:04 AM
. . .  Jazz sounds especially fine, with saxes sounding better than normal.

Gotta be good!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Robert on November 01, 2011, 01:20:57 PM
Todd,

I always felt Tubes added a warmth to the sound..
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Daverz on November 02, 2011, 01:16:18 PM
Tube amps don't have to have mushy bass, rolled-off highs, or a syrupy midrange.   My Rogue M-180 amps are very good at the frequency extremes and have a neutral sound.  The tubes themselves, though, can be a pain.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on November 02, 2011, 01:27:50 PM
Tube amps don't have to have mushy bass, rolled-off highs, or a syrupy midrange.



That's true, though rare, at least in my experience.  I've not heard Rogue gear, though I would not mind it, but of all the various tube setups I've heard, the only one that didn't display all or at least one of the standard tube attributes was one with Nagra VPA monoblocks.  The system was also fronted by one of the big dCS digital rigs and was as good sounding a system as I've heard, and it was using only some moderate ProAcs that I generally didn't like.  (They were standard demo speakers for my dealer, so I heard them a lot even though I had no interest.)  Given my general preferences, solid state is the way to go.  It could be an expensive, time consuming experiment to try tube gear.  And of course I'd want to swap tubes, etc.  Now, with a headphone amp, only a (relatively) little amount of money is needed to experiment.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on November 04, 2011, 08:45:05 AM
...  Given my general preferences, solid state is the way to go.  It could be an expensive, time consuming experiment to try tube gear.  And of course I'd want to swap tubes, etc.  Now, with a headphone amp, only a (relatively) little amount of money is needed to experiment.

Same here. I was thinking of THIS (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/New-Little-Dot-MK-III-Headphone-Tube-Amplifier-Pre-Amp-/280733517011?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415d0584d3) Little Dot headphone preamp unit; it's had some good vibes.
 
On the other hand maybe not.  I'm reasonably convinced that the touted advantages of tube preamps & amps -- warmth, harmonic richness, depth of soundstage -- are really artifacts and not actually on the recordings. To be sure, one is entitled to like them as a matter of preference.
 
I recently swapped by tube preamp for a passive device, and my supposedly "tube-like" Monarchy SM-70 Pro amps for a class D amp. I know I'm getting more "air" and transparency and truer instrument timbres.  BTW, I can highly recommend Class D Audio's SDS series of amps; see their website HERE (http://classdaudio.com/).  These amps will outperform traditional amps costing several times their price; they're also light weight and run cool.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on November 04, 2011, 09:25:14 AM

Same here. I was thinking of THIS (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/New-Little-Dot-MK-III-Headphone-Tube-Amplifier-Pre-Amp-/280733517011?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415d0584d3) Little Dot headphone preamp unit; it's had some good vibes.
 
On the other hand maybe not.  I'm reasonably convinced that the touted advantages of tube preamps & amps -- warmth, harmonic richness, depth of soundstage -- are really artifacts and not actually on the recordings. To be sure, one is entitled to like them as a matter of preference.
 
I recently swapped by tube preamp for a passive device, and my supposedly "tube-like" Monarchy SM-70 Pro amps for a class D amp. I know I'm getting more "air" and transparency and truer instrument timbres.  BTW, I can highly recommend Class D Audio's SDS series of amps; see their website HERE (http://classdaudio.com/).  These amps will outperform traditional amps costing several times their price; they're also light weight and run cool.

Just about all powered subs are powered by class D amps these days ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 29, 2011, 07:17:38 PM
(http://www.wooaudio.com/images/fullsize/wa6se-8.jpg)


I couldn't resist.  I received a windfall that just about covered the cost of the Woo WA6-SE and took the plunge, just in time for Christmas.  The two unit design - one for the power supply, one for the amp itself - is even better than the WA6 I tried earlier.  The minor reservations I had about the WA6, mainly that pianos lack bite, are gone.  Bass, mids, and highs are all superb; dynamic range is insanely good; timbre is realistic across the board; detail is abundant but never emphasized - it's just there for listening pleasure.  An awesome little amp that, when paired with Beyerdynamic DT880s, delivers some of the best sound I've heard from any amp/transducer combo ever.  I wonder what it would sound like with Beyer T1s . . .
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 31, 2011, 07:26:06 AM
     I'm a guitar player (retired). There's nothing I don't know about what tubes can do for your sound if you drive them hard, which I had a tendency to do. I played through small bottle 17 watters, cathode biased, no NFB, and big bottle fixed bias solid state rectified jobs from Fender, Marshall and Hiwatt.

     For music playback tubes do very little that solid state doesn't do. The difference is tubes will have between 10 and 100 times higher minimum distortion (say 1% as against .01), but the spectrum is different. Most of the distortion tubes produce is euphonious while solid state amps produce nasty grating harmonics. You never want to overdrive them. That's why you can get away with a 30 watt tube amp in a home stereo when you'd be forced to use >100 solid state watts in the same situation.

     It puzzles me why people spend money on expensive amps which they connect to their CD players or portables. Why? You can't make the sound better that way, all you can do is preserve the quality you have, and for that you don't need to spend money. The preamp in your CD player/iPod/whatever is giving you that good sound, all you need to do is not mess it up.

     
Quote
Woo WA6-SE

     Woo, indeed. Look, these are works of art, or expensive home decorations, if you like. I wouldn't mind owning one, but I wouldn't expect it to sound different unless I plugged my bass into it and started doing chords at high volume. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 31, 2011, 09:38:46 AM
You can't make the sound better that way, all you can do is preserve the quality you have, and for that you don't need to spend money.



Actually, yes, the sound can be made better with a better amp.  This applies to music produced through speakers or headphones.  It's very simple, and objectively true.  I'd gladly offer anyone a blind A/B comparison between the Woo and the headphone out of my NAD, with proper decibel matching.



Woo, indeed. Look, these are works of art, or expensive home decorations, if you like. I wouldn't mind owning one, but I wouldn't expect it to sound different unless I plugged my bass into it and started doing chords at high volume.


Um, this is a headphone amp.  I'm not sure what you're writing about here.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Holden on December 31, 2011, 12:08:28 PM
My audio system for my PC - fairly basic.

(http://www.edifier.ca/english/speakers/m3300sf/m3300SF-800.jpg)

plus this

(http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/sennhd580.jpg)

plus this

(http://cdn.head-fi.org/e/e1/e1b4160b_e7e9.jpg)

I also use JRiver Media Centre 16 as my media player, configured for direct digital streaming using their kernel streaming plug in. Makes for excellent sound from a PC
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 31, 2011, 01:34:45 PM


Actually, yes, the sound can be made better with a better amp.  This applies to music produced through speakers or headphones.  It's very simple, and objectively true.  I'd gladly offer anyone a blind A/B comparison between the Woo and the headphone out of my NAD, with proper decibel matching.


     It might sound better if you like the way tubes degrade the sound at higher volumes. That's possible. As for blind A/B testing, it usually goes to show that you can't hear the difference that an engineer says you can't hear. When the distortion is below audibility on both devices you won't be able to tell them apart. IOW if they measure the same they are identical. And measuring the same includes distortion levels that are 2 orders of magnitude apart when both are low. There's no difference between inaudible 1% distortion and inaudible .01% distortion.

     There's a difference between hearing something that sounds so obviously better that you think you would hear it in a blind test, and actually hearing the difference in a blind test. The difference disappears in a properly conducted test. This explains a common experience audiophiles have. Someone tells you about a "jaw dropping" difference between 2 components and you can't hear it but keep quiet for fear that you'll be treated as an unbeliever. Besides, maybe you were having a bad day. Eventually you face up to the real problem, which is that placebo audio requires that you know which device is to be favored in order to favor it. I had this experience a number of times and like everyone else made excuses, until I couldn't any more.


Um, this is a headphone amp.  I'm not sure what you're writing about here.

     I wouldn't actually do it, of course.

     No, maybe I would, with some cheap disposable phones, just for kicks. Headphone amps are preamps, after all, not unlike the bass preamps you can buy at the guitar center. As a matter of fact I own such a preamp. If I set the tone controls for flat response it (2-10-2, I think), waahhhlahh, it's a headphone amp. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/cheesy.gif)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 31, 2011, 02:03:15 PM

     I bought a new nano, and now that I've gotten used to its tiny-ness and the touchscreen I can say it's wonderful.

     (http://www.pocket-lint.com/images/dynamic/REVIEW-5014-6a7a1b8d3ee154e63f36ff883858adc7.JPG)

     
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 31, 2011, 02:35:22 PM
Eventually you face up to the real problem


What "problem" are you referring to? 

I must say that I find your supposedly objective outlook on audio amusing.  Since you have not heard the gear in question, you cannot offer an informed opinion of what the gear sounds like.  You can offer a guess of what you think it may sound like, or the existence/non-existence of differences, but that's not the same thing.  In addition, you offer no actual measurements, something you should surely have on offer if you are to have an objective basis for your assertions; you offer a statement like "IOW if they measure the same they are identical," but you do not offer measurements.

As to the Woo, I stated in a prior post about a different model that I was skeptical about the quality of a tube headphone amp, until I lived with one for about a week, doing direct comparisons to my SS headphone amp.  It sounds different, and it sounds better.  For all I know, it may measure quite poorly, but better measurements do not necessarily equate to better sound.  The obvious analog here is LPs vs CDs.  CDs (and digital files) measure better - broader dynamic range, better signal to noise ratio, less distortion, etc - yet for most jazz and rock, I find that LPs sound better.  The compressed, distorted sound is more appealing.  For classical, the opposite is usually the case, though some string quartet recordings sound superb on vinyl.

I have to also say that your phrase "placebo audio" is most enjoyable.  Only you have figured things out.  Got it.  Of course, you are quite presumptuous, too.  Tell me, how many times have I (or anyone else, for that matter) listened to prestige gear that everyone in the know says is awesome - the best out there! - only to find that not to be the case?  Have I (or has anyone else) ever returned gear because it did not live up to expectations?  You are confusing your experience and preferences for some universal, "objective" truth.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on December 31, 2011, 02:52:59 PM

     That's right, I can offer a guess as to what it sounds like. But I'm not confusing my experience with objective truth, I'm refusing to equate the one with the other on the grounds that I know my experience is not objective. So I tried to find out why, and I did. It's really easy once you give up the idea that other people can be fooled but you can't. I know I can be fooled so I look for objective criteria. I trust it because many double blind tests of audio equipment have been done and the results confirm what I say. When the possibility of bias is removed the bias disappears. But you can run more tests to see if you get a different result.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on December 31, 2011, 03:20:37 PM
It's really easy once you give up the idea that other people can be fooled but you can't.



Oh, I know I can be fooled.  But I also know that I must actually listen to a component before I can assess what it sounds like, and whether it meets my preferences.  Relying on double-blind tests can have limitations (such as the impact of amplifier output distortion, which, if a common signal switcher is used, will result in a measurable change in the signal and thus present an inaccurate representation of what an amplifer sounds like by itself), and strikes me as dogmatic in an almost religious way.  It creates a similar expectation bias: A test concluded X, therefore X always holds true.  I guess I'd have to dig into such tests to see if they use truly objective measurements - testing frequency response, CSD, etc at the listening position, and more standard measurement distances (ie, 1 meter) - and whether the same weight is given to such truly objective measures as to listeners' "I prefer choice 'A'" responses.  Since I place less weight on them then you do, I won't expend the time to do so, though if you provide the methodologies used in your preferred tests, I'd gladly review them in more depth.

I use published, preferably third-party measurements, if available, as a guide of where to start when looking for new gear.  This approach is especially helpful in the realm of speakers given the wider disparities in output, but can assist in any area of audio.  Then, with the appropriate demo in my own system, I can make an assessment based on what I actually hear.  Nothing beats actually experiencing the thing itself.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on January 01, 2012, 12:37:15 PM
I am seriously considering getting this Austrian-made integrated tube amp for my study ...

(http://pic6.audiogon.com/i/s/f/1241914930.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 19, 2012, 01:53:53 PM


Oh, I know I can be fooled.  But I also know that I must actually listen to a component before I can assess what it sounds like, and whether it meets my preferences.  Relying on double-blind tests can have limitations (such as the impact of amplifier output distortion, which, if a common signal switcher is used, will result in a measurable change in the signal and thus present an inaccurate representation of what an amplifer sounds like by itself), and strikes me as dogmatic in an almost religious way.  It creates a similar expectation bias: A test concluded X, therefore X always holds true.  I guess I'd have to dig into such tests to see if they use truly objective measurements - testing frequency response, CSD, etc at the listening position, and more standard measurement distances (ie, 1 meter) - and whether the same weight is given to such truly objective measures as to listeners' "I prefer choice 'A'" responses.  Since I place less weight on them then you do, I won't expend the time to do so, though if you provide the methodologies used in your preferred tests, I'd gladly review them in more depth.

I use published, preferably third-party measurements, if available, as a guide of where to start when looking for new gear.  This approach is especially helpful in the realm of speakers given the wider disparities in output, but can assist in any area of audio.  Then, with the appropriate demo in my own system, I can make an assessment based on what I actually hear.  Nothing beats actually experiencing the thing itself.

     The measurement difficulties concern differences that can't be heard. That's what is being tested. The fact they are not heard when the identity of the components is not known has 2 related consequences. First, that standard psychoacoustical theory that small differences are inaudible is confirmed and second, that imagined differences are doing all the work.

     As to your point about experience being the best judge, I'll state my qualified agreement. Examined experience, including the vanishing differences under tests, isn't just the best judge, it's the only way to find out if tiny differences can be heard (they can't, experience shows). When differences are large enough to be heard (as with speakers), they're heard. But when differences are too small to hear, imaginary differences are heard instead. When the possibility of imaginary differences is removed, so are the differences.

     I don't think finding test flaws helps. All it amounts to is saying that the tests are flawed because the differences I hear are real, appealing to the thesis the test refutes. That's not to say the tests are flawless, they might be flawed. I've read some of the critiques of tests that complain that the equipment used is not of sufficient audiophile quality. Of course this is a demand for ever more expensive and complex tests. The test of disappearing differences is flawed because the differences disappeared, and since engineering standards are rejected by subjectivists they win by default. Any test that works according to standard audio practice which says tiny differences are inaudible must be flawed since it confirms what audiophiles somehow know is not true. Never mind how they know their experience is right except when it's tested. They just do.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on January 19, 2012, 02:24:26 PM
First, that standard psychoacoustical theory that small differences are inaudible is confirmed



Well, if it's true in theory, it must be true.  No need to bother listening at all before offering an opinion on how something must sound.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 19, 2012, 02:43:39 PM

     We cross posted so I moved my latest behind yours, to avoid time travel.

     Here's a site that gives an engineering perspective on the controversy:

     Science and Subjectivism in Audio (http://douglas-self.com/ampins/pseudo/subjectv.htm)

     The question that occurs to me is.....why? Why would a problem be so hard to solve when it rests on technical considerations? One possible way to understand is that subjectivism is part of a larger social and intellectual trend that has spread along with "alternative" medicine and Ufology. There has been a decline in the perceived value of expertise across the board, and the vacuum is filled with whatever beliefs can find a foothold.

     


Well, if it's true in theory, it must be true.  No need to bother listening at all before offering an opinion on how something must sound.

     No, you have to test the theory even if it has been confirmed in the past. But how do you test the theory that what you hear is real if you don't think the test can tell you? If the test said you were right you wouldn't bother with how audiophile the test setup was, you'd say it confirmed what you knew. These tests have been run many times, on speaker cables, amps and preamps, CD players and various other devices. In every case the proponents have said that theoretically inaudible differences were in fact audible. When tested the differences could not be found. Furthermore, though I'm not an expert in audio theory and practice, this looks like a field where theory and practice move closely together. This isn't arcane stuff. We didn't just become smarter about acoustics in the 1970s when subjectivism first appeared. Theory, in this case, is well confirmed, which is why many people in professional audio have such low regard for audiophilia. They never bought it, unlike me. I did give it a whirl, but began to question the soundness of its assumptions. Upon examination, the whole house of cards came down.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on January 19, 2012, 03:16:02 PM
These tests have been run many times, on speaker cables, amps and preamps, CD players and various other devices. In every case the proponents have said that theoretically inaudible differences were in fact audible. When tested the differences could not be found.



I'm aware of the general results of tests, and some specific results of some specific tests, but for me, unless the test includes truly objective measurements - eg, frequency response and CSD at the listening position, and even harmonic distortion for the hell of it - I don't really see the test as objective.  Differences in frequency response are (or can be) easily audible as well as measurable.  CSD differences, if they are large enough in magnitude, are also easily audible as well as measurable, and some stereos and components (especially speakers, headphones, and phono cartridges) will sound different and measure different.  If 20 people all say they can't hear a 3 dB difference at 1 Khz measured at the listening position, that doesn't mean that there is no difference in sound, that means that the test subjects couldn't or didn't hear it.  I can't imagine that being the case, but who knows?

Of course most audiophile press is hooey.  But there can in fact be, and in fact are, differences in sound between components.  A standard battery of measurements would almost certainly show why.  Most measurements I've seen of SS and tube amps show significant differences in distortion at easily audible levels, for instance.  A tube amp with 3% THD at 20 watts will sound different from a SS amp with .003% THD at 100 watts in almost any room with pretty much any speaker.  (Hitting 20 watt peaks is not particularly difficult in a medium or large room using insensitive speakers.)  If a SS and tube amp both measure at .05% THD at 100 watts, they will sound far more similar, and possibly identical.  Sometimes things that measure worse may be deemed to sound better.  Like LPs vs CDs as I mentioned before, or high distortion, low output tubes.

It's also worth noting that some people who work with recordings for a living have gone out of there way to build elaborate systems, or try to use specific gear.  Tony Faulkner and Bob Ludwig come to mind.  And they are renowned for engineering and mastering some of the better sounding recordings out there.  They probably could do so with lesser gear, as well, but why is that? 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: drogulus on January 19, 2012, 03:20:58 PM

      Here's a discussion at AVS Forum on Thoughts on Meyer/Moran SACD/DVD-A vs. CD audio study? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=981557) This is one of the more recent (2007) tests of audiophile assumptions. Not that recentness itself is significant, but it does confirm older tests, and that's worth noting.

     One point I'd make. As an empirical matter all of these tests are independent in that one audiophile assumption about, say, the importance of bit depth does not strictly invalidate another such assumption like, for example, the audibility of speaker cable differences where the cables measurements are infinitesimally different. But these subjective judgments travel together under a theory that conventional audio wisdom is wrong in an inexplicable way, so I don't think it's unfair to come to a preliminary conclusion that they all are suspect for the same reason, that nothing but subjective impressions supports them. Subjective impressions are creditable IMO only where they are allowed by what we know about the limits of human hearing, so gross differences are perceived and the judgments based on them don't raise a problem.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 23, 2012, 12:19:41 PM
... These tests have been run many times, on speaker cables, amps and preamps, CD players and various other devices. In every case the proponents have said that theoretically inaudible differences were in fact audible. When tested the differences could not be found. Furthermore, though I'm not an expert in audio theory and practice, this looks like a field where theory and practice move closely together. This isn't arcane stuff. We didn't just become smarter about acoustics in the 1970s when subjectivism first appeared. Theory, in this case, is well confirmed, which is why many people in professional audio have such low regard for audiophilia. They never bought it, unlike me. I did give it a whirl, but began to question the soundness of its assumptions. Upon examination, the whole house of cards came down.

People who have owned a range of medium or higher quality equipment over a number of years will -- without exception -- assert that equipment doesn't all sound the same.  I'm one of those people. Yes, some of it is imagination and that is especially true where differences in sound are, by general agreement, very small in the first place, e.g. amongst interconnect cables.

In "double blind tests" (DBTs) differences might not be detected, but by their nature DBTs can only prove that differences are inaudible under the conditions of the test -- they cannot prove that differences don't exist.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on January 23, 2012, 01:44:08 PM
In "double blind tests" (DBTs) differences might not be detected, but by their nature DBTs can only prove that differences are inaudible under the conditions of the test -- they cannot prove that differences don't exist.

No one doubts the power of psychology. But to establish that is not the goal of a DBT.

The argument that a negative cannot be proven (which isn't so much an argument but a truism) is fairly weak when compared to scientific -- i.e. falsifiable, repeatable -- attempts at getting at something resembling truth (not faith).
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on January 23, 2012, 02:32:22 PM
No one doubts the power of psychology. But to establish that is not the goal of a DBT.

The argument that a negative cannot be proven (which isn't so much an argument but a truism) is fairly weak when compared to scientific -- i.e. falsifiable, repeatable -- attempts at getting at something resembling truth (not faith).
But then again it's easy (for a trained experimenter) to define a rigorous DBT that isn't a realistic test. That is, it is a reliable test, (repeatable, etc.), but not necessarily a valid test because it doesn't test the aspects that matter under conditions that really matter.  This argument is commonly made by audiophiles, viz. such-and-such a test didn't permit the listener to become familiar with the sound of the different components before the test, or the portions for the test track or the listening interval weren't controlled by the listener, etc.  The non-audiophile tester might dismiss these criticisms as "excuses", but this isn't entirely fair.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Est.1965 on January 24, 2012, 09:10:24 AM
My setup is as humble as hell can be humble.  These are the components I use to listen to music.  Not swanky and costs less than £100.  That is not to say that when I can afford to, I will not hesitate to upgrade to something to the tune of five grand.  But not at this time...so this does just fine.

(http://asda.scene7.com/is/image/Asda/511516?hei=800&wid=600&resmode=sharp&op_usm=1.1,0.5,0,0&defaultimage=default_details_GM)
(http://asda.scene7.com/is/image/Asda/508752?hei=800&wid=600&resmode=sharp&op_usm=1.1,0.5,0,0&defaultimage=default_details_GM)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on March 18, 2012, 05:58:24 PM
I am out of the loop on SACD's.  Do the newer Blu Ray players play these at an SACD level?  Is an SACD player worth getting, in your opinion?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on March 19, 2012, 12:42:53 AM
I am out of the loop on SACD's.  Do the newer Blu Ray players play these at an SACD level?  Is an SACD player worth getting, in your opinion?

They will say it, if they do. Universal players like the Oppo-line (and those built on its technology, like Cambridge et al.) do.

Is it worth it? If you are ready/willing/planning to go to surround sound -- now or eventually, then I'd say it is -- because surround is really a game-changer. If you are not, then the difference is much smaller than between good and not-so-good 'regular' equipment. At least that's the impression I got from when I had a Marantz SA-11S1 (pure-stereo) SACD player, which is a lovely build, and pure pleasure to handle, but was much more a psychological improvement than it was a sound improvement.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on March 19, 2012, 07:31:44 PM
They will say it, if they do. Universal players like the Oppo-line (and those built on its technology, like Cambridge et al.) do.

Is it worth it? If you are ready/willing/planning to go to surround sound -- now or eventually, then I'd say it is -- because surround is really a game-changer. If you are not, then the difference is much smaller than between good and not-so-good 'regular' equipment. At least that's the impression I got from when I had a Marantz SA-11S1 (pure-stereo) SACD player, which is a lovely build, and pure pleasure to handle, but was much more a psychological improvement than it was a sound improvement.

Thanks!  Nope.  No intention of going surround.  In fact, with our home entertainment system I went 2.1.  I just like it better.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bigshot on March 19, 2012, 10:28:55 PM
In my system I have a kick ass 2:1 system supplemented with a center and rear channels. With a stereo source it plays 2:1. With multichannel, it plays 5:1. It isn't necessarily and either/or. The quality of the mains and sub are much more important than the center and rears. It can be quite inexpensive to go 5:1 if your 2:1 is covered well already.

I used to have a SACD player, but my amp wasn't able to handle analogue multichannel inputs. I did a line level matched A/B test between the exact same recording and mastering on SACD and redbook and I couldn't discern any difference. The SACD player is in the closet now. I don't want to invest in software for another format that doesn't give me any benefit. I prefer the multichannel formats on DVDs and bluray. They're more universal.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on March 24, 2012, 05:59:19 PM
Thanks!  Nope.  No intention of going surround.  In fact, with our home entertainment system I went 2.1.  I just like it better.

I have quite a number of spare quality amps in storage and can go multi-channel by just adding the surround processor and extra speakers.  But this is more easily said than done since I have a few doxies at my house as well ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Toccata&Fugue on March 24, 2012, 10:23:35 PM
I switched to SACD several years ago, first two channel, then multi, and I've never looked back! Do those engineer types who claim not to hear a difference even know what real acoustic instruments sound like? SACD has far more detail, depth, richness--you name it, and on a good multi-channel system, the realism can be startling. I have a Sony SACD 5400ES, but we just ordered an Oppo BDP 95 to try and consolidate some of the audio/video gear (my wife does not share my enthusiasm for equipment!). I eagerly await the opportunity to A/B them when it arrives in a few days.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 25, 2012, 01:50:49 AM
Do the newer Blu Ray players play these at an SACD level?

Some models do. I bought a second hand Cambridge Audio Azur 650BD last summer for my first Blu-ray player. Cost me over 500 euros as it is modified region free.

Earlier I used a 200 euros Pioneer DV-575A DVD-player for playing SACDs.  :D

Is an SACD player worth getting, in your opinion?

It is worth getting for those who have a good multichannel audio system for movies and are into classical music. For other music genres the format is more or less dead, even useless.

The increased frequency range isn't the issue. Stereo SACD layer may theoretically sound even worse than the corresponding CD-layer because audio amplifiers can't handle ultrasonic frequences that well (performance has been optimised on audible frequency range). Intermodulation distortion can create distortion on lower audible frequencies. However, I don't think this is a major problem. On listening tests people can't differentiate stereo SACD layer from CD layer.

The increased dynamic range is not necessory actually. CD gives easily 90 dB of dynamics. The background noise level of a silent living room is about 30 dB and 120 dB roughly the threshold of pain. 90 dB dynamics of CD covers that.

Does SACD give anything then? Yes! It gives high quality multichannel sound on hybrid discs that can be player stereophonically with any CD-player. SACD-releases are also engineered very well and they tend to sound good because of that (the CD-layer too!)

High sampling rates and large 24 bits dynamic ranges are very useful in music production. When the recording has been produced, the levels can be optimiced for the 16 bits of CD. The 44.1 kHz sampling rate "protects" amplifiers from ultrasonics while covering the audible range of human hearing.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 25, 2012, 02:34:02 AM
People who have owned a range of medium or higher quality equipment over a number of years will -- without exception -- assert that equipment doesn't all sound the same.  I'm one of those people. Yes, some of it is imagination and that is especially true where differences in sound are, by general agreement, very small in the first place, e.g. amongst interconnect cables.

Loudspeakers have their own sound. Ampliers and sound sources sound almost the same. All the rest of the equipment is practically "soundless". It's crazy to think about interconnect cables when moving your head two inches causes 1000 times bigger changes in perceived sound due to different arrival of sound waves into your ears.

Investing your money to best possible loudspeakers and taking care of the acoustics of your listening room gives by far the greatest improvement for the buck in perceived sound quality as long as the rest of the equipment is "good enough".

In "double blind tests" (DBTs) differences might not be detected, but by their nature DBTs can only prove that differences are inaudible under the conditions of the test -- they cannot prove that differences don't exist.

The question is what kind of differences do matter and when? People are very good at creating excuses expanding insignificant differences out of proportion. No wonder most "clear" differences dissappear in controlled blind tests.

High Fidelity is for a big part pure subjectivism. We enjoy getting audio gear we like for subjective reasons and in order to justify our decisions for ourself and others we create excuses in the form of imagined sound attributes. There is nothing wrong with this as we are subjective human beings. The entanglement arises when this subjectivism is thought to be something objective and measurable. We need to learn to live with two truths; objective and subjective.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on March 25, 2012, 03:41:00 AM
With my amp being the same as this :

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2440046675_622de8a89d.jpg)

(http://www.classic-audio.com/marantz/pics/r_2230.jpg)

I am not sure if I should even give it a go.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Bogey on March 25, 2012, 03:42:11 AM
FWIW, heading here today:

http://www.denvermodernism.com/vintage%20voltage%20expo.html
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: rickardg on March 25, 2012, 03:53:38 AM
How difficult is it to set up a surround system for music? I'm about to get a new system and thinking of going surround, but I don't want to get caught up in endless tinkering (it can be fun, but I just don't have the time now).

Also, any suggestions for such a system? I'm preliminarily thinking about something like Denon AVR-1612 with Dali Concept 6 speakers.

Any gotchas I should be aware of?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: 71 dB on March 25, 2012, 06:06:19 AM
How difficult is it to set up a surround system for music? I'm about to get a new system and thinking of going surround, but I don't want to get caught up in endless tinkering (it can be fun, but I just don't have the time now).

Also, any suggestions for such a system? I'm preliminarily thinking about something like Denon AVR-1612 with Dali Concept 6 speakers.

Any gotchas I should be aware of?

For music I recommend a 5.0 system with "large" main speakers capable of deep bass reproduction. That way it's easier to integrate bass into the sound image.

However, all the speakers should be identical in terms of phase and frequency response apart from bass frequences, at least front speakers. The problem is to find a suitable center speaker. Some loudspeaker manufacturers have smaller versions (e.g. Chorus Compact 662) of larger models (Chorus Compact 682) with identical sound apart from bass. That's a perfect solution. The smaller model identical as surround speakers too.

I have a "5.passive" -system where the subwoofer is passive and the signals of main speakers (left & right) are routed through it. All my five speakers are identical. Center and surround speakers are handled as "small" by my amplifier and their lower bass content is routed to main speakers (that is to the passive subwoofer for most part) This solution works if you can integrate the passive subwoofer into the sound image. This is kind of a compromise between music and movies but such systems aren't widely available. My speakers are actually self-made (after construction instructions).

I also recommend that the distance to all speakers is as similar as possible. Identical speakers and distances mean minimal tinkering with channel delays and volumes.

My center speaker is lower than the main speakers. this is because I don't want to put it in front of my tv screen.  :D The center speaker is about 20 cm from the floor, pointing at an precise angle up toward my ears. However, this proximity of floor makes the sound a bit boomy. I have compensated this having a 100 μF capasitor* in series with the center speaker to attenuate lower frequences between 100-300 Hz a bit. Lower frequences than 100 Hz are routed to main speakers. So, it is good to know what you are doing. Multichannel system is more difficult than stereo system to set up correctly. I suppose most people ruin their multichannel system with wrong or badly positioned) center channel (the most important part of the system and the one that can cause a lot of problems). Avoid "horizontal" center speakers with one treble dome between two bass drives. Those look nice but they radiate sound very differently from your typical main speaker.

_______________________________________________________________________________________
*Actually there is also a 10 μF plastic capasitor for high frequences parallel to the 100 μF bipolar capasitor.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: jlaurson on March 25, 2012, 11:41:12 AM
Everything above seconded. Extra bass from a woofer is nice, under certain conditions, but it really isn't necessary...
A 5.0 set up with five identical speakers is easier and free of pitfalls and often the most musically rewarding solution.
When you already have two reasonably sized speakers, it can even be quite economical.

Not surprising, since I've found that 71 dB is our GMG in-house voice of reason and enlightened moderation, when it comes to audio issues.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on May 25, 2012, 09:27:20 PM

  Dear all,

  I figured I'd bump this thread, I just bought this:

  (http://www.royjowetthomecinema.co.uk/images/6004_bx5_crimson_original.jpg)

The Monitor Audio BX5s with Marantz 6004 amp and Marantz 6004 CD player.

  This is an entry level high end audio system and will be my first  "foray" into the world of high end audio. I've this system set up with speakers  3 meters apart, forming an  equilateral triangle, with me sitting at the apex 3 meters from each speaker. I then toed in the speakers, to centre the vocals.   I was in absolute heaven when I played Verdi's Rigoletto! The soundstage effect with the vocals coming from the centre was an experience I had never had before.

 Monitor Audio speakers are "bright" speakers so coupling them with the docile Marantz 6004 amp provided a warm and rich textured sound, that is not fatiguing to the ear.  I had previously auditioned this system before at a local audiovisual store and fell in love with it. Price was a bit of an issue as I was quoted £1200 all in but then I saw it online from Roy Jowett for £899 all in delivered!! and jumped at the chance to move one step up the high end audio ladder.



  marvin

 

 
 

 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Toccata&Fugue on May 26, 2012, 06:48:44 AM
I recently bought a pair of Martin Logan Theos electrostatic speakers--wow! They are incredibly transparent and life-like (that's not my house!):

(http://www.martinlogan.com/images/theos/theoslifestyle.jpg)

I'm currently driving them with a Sony STR 6400ES, but I plan to use it as pre/pro and buy a Parasound A51 5-channel amp as soon as my wife "lets" me!

(http://www.parasound.com/img/halo/a51_front_big.jpg)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on May 26, 2012, 07:23:27 AM
I recently bought a pair of Martin Logan Theos electrostatic speakers--wow! They are incredibly transparent and life-like (that's not my house!):

I had a pair of Vantages a few years back. It was a nice way to step into high-end and nail the type of sound I prefer. I hear that Parasound works well with ML, but you should couple them with a tube preamp to really hear some magic.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on May 26, 2012, 09:35:35 AM
I figured I'd bump this thread, I just bought this:

The Monitor Audio BX5s with Marantz 6004 amp and Marantz 6004 CD player.



Both Monitor and Marantz offer good bank for the buck.  That's an excellent system.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on May 26, 2012, 10:57:57 AM


Both Monitor and Marantz offer good bank for the buck.  That's an excellent system.

  Thanks Todd. All my life I have had to contend with "modest" stereo equipment, bookshelf speakers, iPod dock minisytems and the like. To fnally own a system capable of producing sound at a grand soundstage scale is taking the whole musical experience to a completely different and much higher level. I tell you Verdi never sounded this good  0:).

 

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 26, 2012, 12:18:51 PM
I just bought an entry level high end audio system [that] will be my first  "foray" into the world of high end audio.
Congratulations, Marvin. I don't think there's any thing I've ever spent a substantial sum on that has provided as much pleasure over so many years as decent hi fi playback gear.  Heck, that may be the only thing that justifies all the extra expense and hassle of owning/maintaining a detached house instead of an apartment or condo! May you enjoy your new sound system for many years to come...but be warned: good hardware only makes some of us lust even more after software to feed it!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: cwarchc on May 26, 2012, 12:19:52 PM
My system at the moment compromises of the following:
Rotel 855 cdp, very pleasant sounding older cd player with an excellent inbuilt dac
Squeezebox Duet
Revolver turntable
I alternate between a couple of amps. Both oddball UK based supplied
The one I'm using at the moment is a giant killing Temple Audio Bantam ( tripath, sometimes known as a T amp, class D) fantastic sound for the money, less than £100. Very cool running, but only one input channel
My other amp is an ONIX OA21, a rare UK built 80's amp, lovely sounding (I've owned it for the last 25 years, and I'll never get rid of it)
I'm using JBL nearfield monitors, they suit the domestic situation
But spend most of my listening through a Bravo tube headphone amp , driving Beyer headphones
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on May 26, 2012, 12:31:47 PM
I had a Rotel 855 twenty years ago.  It was the first modestly priced CD playback gear I'd heard that sounded like music instead of screeching.  Even though noticeably muddier than good high end gear, it was pleasantly musical and offered terrific bang for the buck.  Enjoy!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: marvinbrown on May 26, 2012, 12:47:27 PM
Congratulations, Marvin. I don't think there's any thing I've ever spent a substantial sum on that has provided as much pleasure over so many years as decent hi fi playback gear.  Heck, that may be the only thing that justifies all the extra expense and hassle of owning/maintaining a detached house instead of an apartment or condo! May you enjoy your new sound system for many years to come...but be warned: good hardware only makes some of us lust even more after software to feed it!

  Thanks David  :).

  marvin
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: cwarchc on May 26, 2012, 02:07:27 PM
 :)I've also got a Marantz and a Cambridge Audio cdp, however I find that I like the presentation of the Rotel
Yes, it's not high end, but it is 20 years old and only cost pennies
It's all about the music.
I'd rather buy 500 cd's than spend it on a player and only have 50
Everybody to their own
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Toccata&Fugue on May 26, 2012, 02:10:27 PM
I had a pair of Vantages a few years back. It was a nice way to step into high-end and nail the type of sound I prefer. I hear that Parasound works well with ML, but you should couple them with a tube preamp to really hear some magic.

That might be nice, but, I'm not aware of any tube multi-channel pre/pro units!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on May 26, 2012, 04:00:24 PM
That might be nice, but, I'm not aware of any tube multi-channel pre/pro units!

I have seen a multi-channel tube preamp.  As for tube amp, just get 5 monoblock tube amps ...    ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Xenophanes on May 29, 2012, 06:39:55 AM
Paradigm Signature S2, v. 1, speakers
Paradigm PW-2500 subwoofer with a Mirage LFX-1 subwoofer crossover

Yamaha CD-C600 CD player. My wife wanted a changer. It sounds fine, and tracks extremely well.
Rega P3 turntable with Shure M97xE cartridge--it's quite a good cartridge.
Warp Knots low filter for phono

Quad 44 preamplifier
Quad 606 amplifier

Sennheiser HD 598 open headphones
Sennheiser HD 280Pro closed headphones

Various interconnects, none expensive
12 AWG Angstrom speaker cable

The Senn HD 598 headphones are a recent accquisition. 

I am awaiting delivery of a HeadRoom Total Bithead headphone amplifier.

Someday I may get an even more capable subwoofer. The PW-2500 goes down to 20 Hz easily, but it's marginal on a 32 foot organ pedal (16 Hz), which is there but down in level.


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 29, 2012, 07:45:16 AM


Quote from: rickardg on 2012-03-25, 07:53:38 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1069.msg614227#msg614227)
How difficult is it to set up a surround system for music? I'm about to get a new system and thinking of going surround, but I don't want to get caught up in endless tinkering (it can be fun, but I just don't have the time now).

Also, any suggestions for such a system? I'm preliminarily thinking about something like Denon AVR-1612 with Dali Concept 6 speakers.

Any gotchas I should be aware of?
To add to what others have said ... It isn't difficult to get excellent multichannel sound. You get multi-channel from DVD, DVD-A, SACD, and Blu-ray.  M/C on Blu-ray comes in several formats at various resolutions but they are all at least as good as CD.

My suggestions for equipment and set-up are the following:
For speaker placement, this guide is generally good: see HERE (http://www.aperionaudio.com/AperionU/multichannel.aspx). Note the "Ideal Home Theatre Placement" is great for music too provided you have and use a good EQ/time-delay facility (such as Audyssey 2EQ or MultiEQ). The time delay feature means that it isn't critical that all speakers be of equal distant from the listening position -- this is of huge practical significance.

If you have only 5 speakers, (no backs), place the Left & Right surrounds 20 degrees behind the listening position.   Note that it's best that the Left, Right, and centre speakers be identical and mounted as nearly as possible on the same horizontal plane. Hook all speakers up to your receiver using 14 or heavier gauge wire.

Don't spend stupid $$ on speaker cables or interconnects including HDMI.  A lot of retailers try to make significant extra profit selling you over-price, high mark-up wire: don't fall for it.  I recommend Blue Jeans Cable, (website HERE (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/)), for professional grade but very reasonably price cables and interconnects.

(http://www.aperionaudio.com/App_Themes/Aperion/images/templates/aperionu/ht_htplacement.gif)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Fëanor on May 30, 2012, 05:44:04 AM


Quote from: Holmes on 2012-05-29, 19:22:55 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1069.msg633175#msg633175)
It does seem expensive though if you haven't had much experience with buying speakers.


For multi-channel, you can't get away from the fact that you need 5 speakers instead of 2, (plus a subwoofer don't already have one). Incidentally, a subwoofer obviates the need for large, floor-standing L&R front speakers, so that potentially can save a little money.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Toccata&Fugue on May 30, 2012, 08:19:15 AM
I have seen a multi-channel tube preamp.  As for tube amp, just get 5 monoblock tube amps ...    ;D

That would be prohibitively expensive if I factor in the cost of a divorce.  :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 09, 2012, 12:40:56 PM
I have a pair of Raidho Eben X-Centrics loudspeakers, a Jeff Rowland Concerto amplifier, a Lite DAC-83 digital to analogic converter, an Audiophilleo USB to spdif converter, a modified AQVox USB Linear Power Supply and a MacBook Pro. I use some Audioquest Sky interconnects, Audioquest Volcano loudspeaker cables, 3 Audioquest NRG-5 power cables, a Furutech FT-SWS (R) wall socket, an Aavik A4 rack with Nordost Pulsar Point feet, some Omicrons... The loudspeakers sit on Target Audio stands. I usually listen to Hi-Res files via USB (used firewire with the Weiss DAC2). As software I use Audirvana but plan on passing to PureMusic.

(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/474796_412820225404302_127071891_o.jpg)

(http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/411578_412806375405687_1191854852_o.jpg)

(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/411578_412806378739020_1424944860_o.jpg)

These are some old photos featuring my ex Weiss DAC2... I haven't taken any new photos since then.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Est.1965 on September 09, 2012, 12:44:24 PM
Crikey.
I feel like a musical pauper looking at that kit.   :o
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 09, 2012, 12:47:40 PM
Crikey.
I feel like a musical pauper looking at that kit.   :o

I'll take it as a compliment. Skip admiring the dust, please. :D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ataraxia on September 09, 2012, 12:48:50 PM
Here's a video of mine. Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAKZ-O70wNg
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on September 09, 2012, 12:57:23 PM
(http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/474796_412820225404302_127071891_o.jpg)

Looks impressive! You may achieve better results with some room treatments--from the picture it looks like you have bare corners in your room.

You can check my system and a picture of it in my signature.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 09, 2012, 01:15:48 PM
Looks impressive! You may achieve better results with some room treatments--from the picture it looks like you have bare corners in your room.

You can check my system and a picture of it in my signature.

I do have 'almost' bare corners in the room but I believe my bass to be very fast and well controlled. The loudspeakers are placed well inside of the front and lateral walls (the perspective in the photos might not do justice to the real world distances - I believe I used some wide angle lense). The lack of toe-in between the loudspeakers might also help this. :)

@ Petrarch. You might benefit from covering those windows. Glass is a terrible reflective material. And the scene and layering might also benefit from this. The room is also pretty empty and resonances could be overwhelming. I used to have a Squeezebox Classic some years ago. Used it with the Weiss interlinked by digital cable. I presume you are using it with the Esoteric DAC. It might limit its qualities. Mine ate some transparency and some prat so I got rid of the SB. Now I'm very pleased with my MacBook.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on September 09, 2012, 01:23:09 PM
Having this on loan for a possible purchase:

(http://www.tivolihifi.com.au/sites/default/files/imagecache/product/yba_08_0.jpg)

YBA Passion 400 Pre Amplifier
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on September 09, 2012, 01:23:56 PM
I'm thinking about in the next few months buying new speakers.  My old ones were damaged, but still work.

Anyway I think that I'm willing to expand my budget.  I spent $300 on the pair of towers that I'm using.  I'm willing to make my budget $1000 this time around.  Whether it still be floor standing or bookshelfs + speaker stands, what do you all recommend?

If you have advice about auditioning speakers, please provide that as well.

I'm looking for neutral with a great sound stage for a medium sized (apartment sized) living room.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 09, 2012, 01:28:20 PM
I'm thinking about in the next few months buying new speakers.  My old ones were damaged, but still work.

Anyway I think that I'm willing to expand my budget.  I spent $300 on the pair of towers that I'm using.  I'm willing to make my budget $1000 this time around.  Whether it still be floor standing or bookshelfs + speaker stands, what do you all recommend?

If you have advice about auditioning speakers, please provide that as well.

I'm looking for neutral with a great sound stage for a medium sized (apartment sized) living room.

Any thoughts?

Try Dynaudio, Elac, Vienna Acoustics, Usher (maybe Thiel, Nola...). Bookshelfs or standmounts are more cost effective (entry-level standfloors cost more or same as mid-level standmounts). You get some extra sound with mid-level range and less bass but it might be worth it. For 1k $ go with the second hand market. Try audiogon.com.

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-usher-audio-cp-6311-loudspeakers-2012-09-05-speakers-75207
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/monitors-dynaudio-contour-1-3-mkii-cherry-finish-2012-08-27-speakers-22201
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-vienna-acoustics-bach-grand-loudspeakers-2012-08-24-speakers-06824
I have listened to all of them. Enough resolution, some speed, nice timbral qualities, some transparency, nice dynamics, acceptable imaging. The Dyn's have a lot of bass and are very neutral. The Usher's are a little on the warm side. Carefull matching with amp, source and cables are a must for all. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Est.1965 on September 09, 2012, 01:42:44 PM
My setup is as humble as hell can be humble.  These are the components I use to listen to music.  Not swanky and costs less than £100.  That is not to say that when I can afford to, I will not hesitate to upgrade to something to the tune of five grand.  But not at this time...so this does just fine.

(http://asda.scene7.com/is/image/Asda/511516?hei=800&wid=600&resmode=sharp&op_usm=1.1,0.5,0,0&defaultimage=default_details_GM)
(http://asda.scene7.com/is/image/Asda/508752?hei=800&wid=600&resmode=sharp&op_usm=1.1,0.5,0,0&defaultimage=default_details_GM)

Bollocks.  I'm giving music up now.   :'(
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on September 09, 2012, 01:44:24 PM
@ Petrarch. You might benefit from covering those windows. Glass is a terrible reflective material. And the scene and layering might also benefit from this. The room is also pretty empty and resonances could be overwhelming. I used to have a Squeezebox Classic some years ago. Used it with the Weiss interlinked by digital cable. I presume you are using it with the Esoteric DAC. It might limit its qualities. Mine ate some transparency and some prat so I got rid of the SB. Now I'm very pleased with my MacBook.

I haven't found that many issues with resonances or reflections from the windows--layering and soundstage is quite good, with depths of 30-40 ft, and the tone of the instruments and voices is quite engaging. That said, the room is by no means perfect; in a proper room, these speakers are some of the best I have ever heard. The room should really be seen as just another component in the system, and that is why I plan on having a dedicated, treated and well-dimensioned room for the system when we have our own place.

I only use the Squeezebox for the music I have on the computer and it isn't my main source. I am still an avid buyer of CDs, and for those I use the Esoteric.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on September 09, 2012, 01:48:37 PM
Bollocks.  I'm giving music up now.   :'(

Why would you do that?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 09, 2012, 01:55:18 PM
I haven't found that many issues with resonances or reflections from the windows--layering and soundstage is quite good, with depths of 30-40 ft, and the tone of the instruments and voices is quite engaging. That said, the room is by no means perfect; in a proper room, these speakers are some of the best I have ever heard. The room should really be seen as just another component in the system, and that is why I plan on having a dedicated, treated and well-dimensioned room for the system when we have our own place.

I only use the Squeezebox for the music I have on the computer and it isn't my main source. I am still an avid buyer of CDs, and for those I use the Esoteric.

Very true. Unfortunately rooms are somtimes pretty complicated components. Mine isn't perfect either. I have a very tall room (3 meters) and I have some resonances when some tenors reach high C's. Other than that, nothing really bothers me. I stuffed all the shelves with books, got a pretty 'fat' rug, and all my windows (3) are covered by thick curtains. ;D
Good luck with your dedicated room. For me it's a little late so I'll just say night-night.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on September 09, 2012, 02:01:55 PM
Having this on loan for a possible purchase:

(http://www.tivolihifi.com.au/sites/default/files/imagecache/product/yba_08_0.jpg)

YBA Passion 400 Pre Amplifier

I heard YBA was bought by a Chinese company.  Is that true?
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Coopmv on September 09, 2012, 02:04:57 PM
Bollocks.  I'm giving music up now.   :'(

I honestly do not think the level of your enjoyment of your music collection is directly proportional to the total cost of your audio system ...
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Ataraxia on September 09, 2012, 02:06:06 PM
I honestly do not think the level of your enjoyment of your music collection is directly proportional to the total cost of your audio system ...

Word.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bigshot on September 09, 2012, 02:09:26 PM
It's taken me thirty years to finally be in the position to do a proper listening and screening room.

(http://animationresources.org/pics/clclubhouse.jpg)

I've got a Mac Mini server driving a 1080p projection system with 5:1 sound. The 10 foot screen comes down from behind the front beam. 30 TB of online protected storage. Yamaha Amp, Sony bluray, combination of JBL towers and custom 70s cabinet speakers with Klipsch bookshelves in the rear. My sub is a top of the line Sunfire. The sound system roars. The best I've ever had, and I've been working at it for thirty years.

The trick I've learned is that the speakers and how they're placed in the room are all that really matters. Careful equalization too. Amps and players don't contribute much to sound quality. Even inexpensive ones sound great if the speakers are good and set up well.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 09, 2012, 02:46:37 PM
I'm looking for neutral with a great sound stage for a medium sized (apartment sized) living room.  Any thoughts?


New: Monitor Audio, B&W, Focal, Philharmonic Audio Philharmonitor.  Maybe think of some of the kits out there.  Madisound sells Zaph Audio speaker designs, among others.  John Krutke, the man behind Zaph, is a measurements first and last kind of guy, and some of his designs are both affordable and use high end drivers (eg, ScanSpeak Revelators, Seas Prestige, etc).  His site is most informative, as well.  Seas kits are also available, including designs that use their Excel drivers, which are some of the best on the market.  I've come to the conclusion, after buying two pairs of Salk Sound speakers, that most speaker brands are rip-offs.  If you can swing custom, consider it.  (Salk Sound, Philharmonic Audio, Selah, Tyler Acoustics.) 

Used: The same brands listed above, just moving up the price scale.  The Vienna Acoustics Bach mentioned before are very good.  I had a pair for a couple years, but had to sell them because they are too warm.  Look at Audiogon at the price range you want, there are tons of options.

(I have a pair of Joseph Audio RM22s Mk IIs I am willing to part with for a song - $700-ish.  Just sayin'.) 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Est.1965 on September 09, 2012, 03:04:14 PM
I honestly do not think the level of your enjoyment of your music collection is directly proportional to the total cost of your audio system ...

Splendid.  I feel much better about this now!  :D   
I will leave this particular thread and never return until I progress to audio hardware that reflects my nursery 'audiophile-ness.'   Some people are on a different level here, I'll come back when I get there, which I probably will, but it will be some time...   :P

***runs away to buy a tape recorder***
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 09, 2012, 06:19:40 PM
I'm looking for neutral with a great sound stage for a medium sized (apartment sized) living room.

I had the same requirements years ago when looking for speakers. I found that high performance bookshelves with these exact characteristics weren't so easy to find.

Auditioning as many as I could was the only way to go. I even managed to swing a couple of home demos, which really helped. Ultimately I ruled out B&W (although the 705's and 805's were quite impressive), Monitor, Sonus Faber, Linn, KEF, and any number of speakers whose names I forget.

I also did some research (mostly reading hi-fi mags with quality online archives of reviews) and found a dealer in my area who carried Revel speakers. At the time he didn't have any Revel bookshelves on hand but the floor-standers he demo'd for me sounded so open, full, and wide-ranging I gambled and bought the bookshelves. It was a good gamble as these "bookshelves" totally out-performed all the others for range and depth. And neutral is the name of the game with the Revels.

Unfortunately this was all about eight years ago and the industry has obviously made many inroads since then but if I were in the market again Revel would be my first stop.

Anyway, just my two cents...


Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 10, 2012, 04:01:48 AM
It's taken me thirty years to finally be in the position to do a proper listening and screening room.

(http://animationresources.org/pics/clclubhouse.jpg)

I've got a Mac Mini server driving a 1080p projection system with 5:1 sound. The 10 foot screen comes down from behind the front beam. 30 TB of online protected storage. Yamaha Amp, Sony bluray, combination of JBL towers and custom 70s cabinet speakers with Klipsch bookshelves in the rear. My sub is a top of the line Sunfire. The sound system roars. The best I've ever had, and I've been working at it for thirty years.

The trick I've learned is that the speakers and how they're placed in the room are all that really matters. Careful equalization too. Amps and players don't contribute much to sound quality. Even inexpensive ones sound great if the speakers are good and set up well.

Amplifiers, players, loudspeakers, cables, the room, and even the AC matter a lot. Equalization? :o I want to hear the exact information on the audio support whether it's a vinyl, a CD/DVD-A/SACD or a hi-res file. This is what fidelity is all about. I don't want to hear a pumped up bass, a lowered treble... Just the recording itself. True hi-fi components, audiophile grade components don't have any switches for bass, treble of mids. This is also valid for software. Experience depends strictly upon the best system you've heard (quality/price wise). You know how they say: you can only get better if your opponent betters you.

@ Scots John - Music is not to be given up no matter what your hi-fi. You definitely enjoy music more if you're an ignorant who doesn't give a damn on what the music sounds like. If the music touches you as much as it should, nothing else ever matters (no offense - ignorant doesn't have a bad connotation in the phrase above). Audiophilia is a messy hobby. Classical music, opera, jazz definitely sound better on an audiophile system but if you are a perfectionist (and audiophiles are perfectionists), you always tend to push the limits farther and farther. That robbs you a part of the pleasure of listening. You become more analytical (about the system) when the only thing that should matter is the music. I have difficulties in enjoying music on a sub-level hi-fi system. Once you get accustomed to resolution, speed, transparency, control, neutrality, imaging, tonality and so on and so forth, things only get worse..  ;D It's like getting out of a Porsche and getting in a Datsun. So sit back and enjoy the music. Music is an art. With a magnifying glass you might focus too much on the cracks in the painting. Coopmv is right: the level of the enjoyment of your music collection is not directly proportional to the total cost of your audio system ...:)

@ Todd - I wouldn't say that Vienna Acoustics Bach are warm. Of course this is just my opinion. I think the rest of the system made them sound like that. As I said before, mathing is critical and you can only judge a component in a certain system. There is an overall character but from my point of view Vienna Acoustics loudspeakers are not warm.

@ Dancing Divertimentian - Revels are often displayed in shows with Jeff Rowland amplification and source. From what I read and heard Revels sound pretty nice but I doubt their price fits David's budget.

@ DavidW - The best thing you can do is take a trip to a few audiophile dealers and listen to the same music on a few systems. Although inexperienced your ear should tell you what you should consider buying. Second hand market should definitely be an option though.

@ Coopmv - Yes, YBA belongs to Shanling although I doubt they interfere too much in their products. At least I hope so. I had the honor to listen to a YBA system (YBA Passion 1000, Meridian 808 Signature CD Player, Raidho Eben X-3, Roksan Radius 5, Audio Technica AT-F3 II, Roksan DX 2, Audioquest cabling) and everything sounded just like it should. Hope the french will hold tight on their position. ;D
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on September 10, 2012, 04:28:01 AM
I heard YBA was bought by a Chinese company.  Is that true?
That is true. Though this was built while they still were French.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on September 10, 2012, 04:40:10 AM
I now play a Sony SCD-XA5400ES SACD player 

(http://www.productwiki.com/upload/images/sony_scd_xa5400es.jpg)

as well as a Wadia 402 CD player

(http://www.shows.soundstagelive.com/shows/ces2005/jan07a/wadia.jpg)

through the YBA and into one of these:

(http://www.gzhifi.com/as/images/201108/1314409622656949137.jpg)

a Conrad-Johnson MV 2500

and into a pair of these:

(http://www.congaudio.com.vn/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/EUPHONIA_MS5_4fee8b5d0631d.jpg)

Dali Euphonia MS 5.

And i do agree that speakers and room are the defining factors for a HiFi set up, though obviously all active components matter.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 10, 2012, 04:44:06 AM
@ Todd - I wouldn't say that Vienna Acoustics Bach are warm.



I use Naim gear, which is not exactly known for being excessively warm.  The speakers were warm.  They were good, just not as good as Josephs, or now Salks.  Third party measurements of VA speakers show that other models are warm.  That's one of the traits retailers have used to sell them.  You're the first person I've come across who has said they are not warm.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on September 10, 2012, 04:48:36 AM
I have the Beethovens (the former model, not he last "grand") in my living room (what I've shown above is from my listening room) and they are definitively in my experience relatively "warm", forgiving and musical, and not given to excesses of detailing (which in the long run often is tiring). Of course, it all runs down to what you match them with.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on September 10, 2012, 05:08:50 AM
I'm thinking about in the next few months buying new speakers.  My old ones were damaged, but still work.

Anyway I think that I'm willing to expand my budget.  I spent $300 on the pair of towers that I'm using.  I'm willing to make my budget $1000 this time around.  Whether it still be floor standing or bookshelfs + speaker stands, what do you all recommend?

If you have advice about auditioning speakers, please provide that as well.

I'm looking for neutral with a great sound stage for a medium sized (apartment sized) living room.

Any thoughts?
$1000 isn't much for speakers but you can get satisfying sound at that price. Definitely check out Monitor's RS6, if it's still being made. Great value leaders in affordable loudspeakers have long been the Canadian companies with government subsidized R&D, particularly PSB, Paradigm, & Mirage. I'd suggest checking out their offerings in your price range.

When I'm auditioning equipment, I used to take a selection of LPs with a variety of music that I knew well. That became a small stack of CDs. Now I burn a CD with tracks such as solo piano, percussive jazz, string quartet, sultry female voice, opera, orchestral...you get the point. I train my ears to focus on particular aspects of each track--the crispness and shimmer of a jazz drummer's cymbal, sibilance of vocals and "bloom" around the voice, soundstaging of the orchestra and jazz combo, clarity and detail of multiple instruments, and perhaps most important, does it sound like music? Does the piano sound like a real piano, the bass like a bass? (If you don't know, best get to some live performances or you won't have a meaningful standard of reference.)

Re. soundstage -- if that's most important, you might be pleasantly surprised at the way a good pair of small bookshelf speakers can disappear when properly set up.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: The new erato on September 10, 2012, 05:16:46 AM

Re. soundstage -- if that's most important, you might be pleasantly surprised at the way a good pair of small bookshelf speakers can disappear when properly set up.
definitely agree. While lacking some bass and being slightly limites in dynamics, in a reasonably sized room a par of two way small speakers can do some things surprisingly right, e.g. midtone realism (most important) and imaging - both extremely important for realistic music reproduction. I have a pair of small Ushers (int the 1000 USD class) in my seaside cabin, and on some material they are wonderfully realistic.   
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on September 10, 2012, 06:45:27 AM
definitely agree. While lacking some bass and being slightly limites in dynamics, in a reasonably sized room a par of two way small speakers can do some things surprisingly right, e.g. midtone realism (most important) and imaging - both extremely important for realistic music reproduction. I have a pair of small Ushers (int the 1000 USD class) in my seaside cabin, and on some material they are wonderfully realistic.   
I had a pair of Rogers LS3/5a speakers back around the time DaveW was born. God only knows where they ended up during my misspent youth. Not much bottom end but beautifully open and the soundstage was incredible (listened mostly to jazz and rock back then). I'm not even sure if my current Gallo Reference 3.1s are as good at imaging as they were!
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bigshot on September 10, 2012, 07:38:26 AM
Amplifiers, players, loudspeakers, cables, the room, and even the AC matter a lot. Equalization? :o I want to hear the exact information on the audio support whether it's a vinyl, a CD/DVD-A/SACD or a hi-res file. This is what fidelity is all about. I don't want to hear a pumped up bass, a lowered treble... Just the recording itself. True hi-fi components, audiophile grade components don't have any switches for bass, treble of mids. This is also valid for software. Experience depends strictly upon the best system you've heard (quality/price wise). You know how they say: you can only get better if your opponent betters you.

You don't understand the purpose of equalization at all. It isn't to "pump up bass". It's to balance frequencies to perfect neutrality. When you put a speaker into a room, no matter what speaker, its frequency response changes dramatically. Every individual speaker and room combination creates its own particular alteration to the sound. The way you return the sound to its correct balance is through room treatment and equalization.

I've supervised recording, editing and mixing for TV and CD release as part of my job, and I've worked in dozens of sound studios. Every single one of them had a head engineer whose job it was to calibrate the equipment and equalize the output of the studio monitors to a completely balanced frequency response. That way, if you start a project at one studio and take it to another studio to finish, it will sound EXACTLY the same. If you want to hear what they hear in the studio, you have to calibrate your system to a balanced response to match theirs.

I've been working in audio and video for over thirty years, and I can tell you that a lot of the "common knowledge" among audiophiles is totally wrong. It's misconceptions based on old ideas dragged over from the analogue era mixed with snake oil peddled by high end audio dealers. If you understand the science of how sound works and go from there, keeping your focus on the Established thresholds of human perception, you'll get a lot further towards the goal of perfect sound than if you put yourself in the hands of people who want to sell you something.

Getting fantastic sound doesn't require a lot of money. In fact, except for speakers and headphones, there's very little corellation between cost and quality. It's possible to put together a fantastic system on a budget. You just need to put your money where it matters, and not spend a lot on things like high end CD players where even a $150 Sony bluray player performs to the exact same specs as the most expensive audiophile player.

I know quite a bit about sound reproduction and I'm happy to share if you're interested.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: petrarch on September 10, 2012, 08:00:42 AM
I've supervised recording, editing and mixing for TV and CD release as part of my job, and I've worked in dozens of sound studios. Every single one of them had a head engineer whose job it was to calibrate the equipment and equalize the output of the studio monitors to a completely balanced frequency response. That way, if you start a project at one studio and take it to another studio to finish, it will sound EXACTLY the same. If you want to hear what they hear in the studio, you have to calibrate your system to a balanced response to match theirs.

It is worth noting that room treatment is by far the better option. Equalization can indeed provide a neutral and balanced response but it is quite dependent on the listening/measurement position, which means you will have to be in that exact position to enjoy that response.

Of course, for listening at home equalization is a reasonable compromise, since it avoids littering the room with perhaps ugly absorption or diffusion panels. In fact, a number of high-end speaker manufacturers provide gain controls in the speakers for this purpose, although they aren't typically as flexible as a proper outboard equalizer--it's more of a capability for coarse speaker-to-room tuning and avoid major resonances.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bigshot on September 10, 2012, 08:13:02 AM
Room treatment and equalization are two different things. One isn't a replacement for the other. When you're starting a speaker installation you deal with all the room issues. When you've done that to the best of your ability, you equalize to flatten it all out to a balanced response. Room treatment is about eliminating reflections and equalization is about balancing the overall response. They go hand in hand, and one affects the effectiveness of the other.

As you say, there are compromises to be made in a space that one also lives in. For instance, while a studio can focus all of its sound on the mixing board, a home stereo has to sound reasonably good from several positions in the room so the whole family can listen, not just the occupant of one chair in the sweet spot. Also, accomodation has to be made for furniture and things wives care an awful lot about. Few people have the freedom to totally design the whole space around listening.

There are simple things you can do though without covering the room in sound diffuser panels. Speaer position is important. They should be at least 1/5 into the room. Not pressed up against the wall. The two mains should never be more than 8 feet apart, unless you have a center channel to bridge the gap. Large windows and sliding glass doors should be covered with curtains. The floor plan should be open, with room for the bass to spread out through the room along the floor. And the main midrange speakers should be ear height, not higher or lower. If you have a 5:1 setup, the level balance between the six speakers is critical to creating a three dimensional soundstage.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 10, 2012, 08:39:15 AM
Speaker position is important. They should be at least 1/5 into the room. Not pressed up against the wall.



Generally yes, but there are some speakers designed for boundary placement. 
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidW on September 10, 2012, 08:44:33 AM
Thanks everyone for the advise so far.  I shall have to make a trip or several to audition speakers.  I'm nearby a few large cities so there should be plenty of possibilities.  As far as well known recordings that I can latch on to specific details I think that a couple of favorites Bernstein/VPO Mahler 5 and the Beatles' White Album should do nicely.  All of you are also giving me brands to look into, which is much better than where I started from. :)
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bigshot on September 10, 2012, 08:51:51 AM
One very important tip. In the listening room of the retail store you go to, have the salesman show you how to work the switcher. Don't let him control it. Twice I've caught salesmen with their back to the equipment and their hands behind their back surrepticiously reach to turn the bass up to make me like one speaker over another. You wouldn't believe how pissy they get when you call them on this sort of thing.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: johndoe21ro on September 10, 2012, 09:16:46 AM
If I have to repeat myself, no problem. Pro gear and audiophile gear are different things. Audiophile gear has no balance for bass, mids and highs. There are some exceptions but they are extremely few. Usually loudspeakers have this kind of buttons and knobs - many have time alignment settings. And how do you ''equalize to flatten it all out to a balanced response''. By ear? It's the wrong way to do it, my friend.

@ Todd - I've listened to 2 systems with Naim gear. One with Naim Supernait + Arcam CD37 + Naim DAC + Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M + Naim NAC A5 and the second one with Naim Nait 5i + Slim Devices Squeezebox + Cabasse MT30 Jersey/Epos M12.2 + Naim NAC A5. For me Naim was pretty mellow and warm. Total lack of dynamics (Mahler, Brukner, Beethoven, etc.), laid back, hardly rezolute, lack of speed and prat. If for an 8ohm loudspeaker things might be acceptable, stuff goes completely wrong on 6 and 4 ohms impedance loudspeakers. The lack of power is chronical. I've listened to Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Concert Grand, Mozart Grand Symphony Edition and Bach Grand. I couldn't say VA are cold and/or analytical but I would definitely not call them warm. Maybe with a tube amplifier... :D
I'll try to limit my opinions - don't want to offend or contradict anybody too much.

Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: bigshot on September 10, 2012, 09:29:02 AM
how do you ''equalize to flatten it all out to a balanced response''.

Using two octave sweeps from a signal generator, starting at the low end working up the range, increasing the volume a bit for each pass from 20 to 20.

If you're interested in more details about how this is done, I'd be happy to share.

Worrying about the noise from a simple tone control pot at the expense of being able to balance the sound is patently absurd. An unequalized stereo system with no tone controls is like a race car without a steering wheel. High end audio is full of absurdities like that.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: DavidRoss on September 10, 2012, 09:47:22 AM
I'll try to limit my opinions - don't want to offend or contradict anybody too much.
Na, don't worry about it. Some folks just get offended by any opinions that aren't exactly identical with their own. And then, because they feel offended, think that you offended them, thus giving them license to be intentionally offensive in return.

Differing opinions not only make horse races but are the means of opening our minds, improving our understanding, and even learning things we didn't know (often radically different from what we thought we knew but only believed).

Of course, once people demonstrate that they're determined not to learn anything and are not interested in exchanging opinions but only in puffing up their own egos by demonizing people who think differently, then you know it's just a waste of time and energy to try to have a dialogue with them. Remember that some folks just can't tolerate diversity of opinion...and research suggests that this is not a moral issue. These people don't choose to be this way; it's a psychological condition. Rather than judging them or trying to "make" them see sense (which only stiffens their resistance), the best thing we can do is to feel compassion for their handicap and move on to where we can be helpful.
Title: Re: What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?
Post by: Todd on September 10, 2012, 10:03:48 AM
@ Todd - I've listened to 2 systems with Naim gear.



I didn't hear the systems you heard, but the traits you use to describe Naim are atypical.  I've not heard Cabasse speakers, but Naim paired with Sonus Faber doesn't produce the sound you describe in my experience.  (I've owned Sonus Fabers as well).  The room(s) no doubt had a large impact.  As to VA not being warm, again, most people describe them as warm.  Third party frequency plot measurements show that some models are warm by design (ie, a bump in mid bass, a depression in low treble, measured anechoically or "quasi"-anechoically), though the Schoenberg and Klimt series speakers appear to be voiced differently.  In the context of my system, when I switched from VAs to Joseph Audio, the improvement in clarity, etc was immediate and obvious.  The VAs were too warm in comparison, as well as not particularly detailed.  Of course, I tend to prefer metal main drivers, and I use Naim separates, where the lack of power you mention has never been a problem.  Of course, it wasn't a problem when I used the 30 watt Nait 5 to drive the VA Bachs.  I'd hit peaks that had to be in the 95 dB range (based on subsequent listening and measurements).  I can drive my current speakers to 107 dB peaks no problem (which I did one time as a test, and will not do again; I want to keep my hearing), and they are 6 Ohm.   

Whenever I hear or read people mention a lack of power with any amplifier, I'm always curious just how loud they listen, and how large the room is.  Perhaps I just listen quietly, but I listen at a volume with peaks usually in the 80-85 dB range.  (I tend to listen a bit louder with non classical recordings.)  At those volumes, very little power is needed, and even in dynamic passages little power is needed, and then only briefly.  My