GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Opera and Vocal => Topic started by: Harry on June 19, 2007, 01:30:58 AM

Title: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Harry on June 19, 2007, 01:30:58 AM
Guess what?
My woman friend came back with this box, that I had given back to her!
She saw my postings of all the Carl Loewe cd's with Lieder.
So she figured I would be maybe interested again to accept this gift.
Second offering, isn't she sweet.
So I kissed her and took it gratefully.
I guess I am ready now!
Boris bug I am sure.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Que on June 19, 2007, 01:50:38 AM
Harry, are you telling us that you've been miraculously cured of "Vibrato-Sopranitis"?  :o :o :o

 ;D

Q
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Harry on June 19, 2007, 01:57:27 AM
Harry, are you telling us that you've been miraculously cured of "Vibrato-Sopranitis"?  :o :o :o

 ;D

Q

No, but she told me if I could stomach Loewe, I could stomach Schubert, that's why.
I stay sceptical, but my tolerance has been stretched lately! :)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Que on June 19, 2007, 02:12:16 AM
No, but she told me if I could stomach Loewe, I could stomach Schubert, that's why.
I stay sceptical, but my tolerance has been stretched lately! :)

You have very generous friends. Keep us posted on the Schubert Lieder adventure! :)

Q
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Harry on June 19, 2007, 02:17:06 AM
You have very generous friends. Keep us posted on the Schubert Lieder adventure! :)

Q

That may take a while, for I plan to post only if I played the whole box at least twice, before I can say anything. ;D
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 19, 2007, 03:49:59 AM
That may take a while, for I plan to post only if I played the whole box at least twice, before I can say anything. ;D

Okay then. We'll expect a report no later than August 15, 2009

Sarge
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Harry on June 19, 2007, 03:56:37 AM
Okay then. We'll expect a report no later than August 15, 2009

Sarge

Done Sarge! ;D

Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: uffeviking on June 19, 2007, 05:22:10 AM
Harry, you didn't tell us who is singing, and I can't read it on the box you posted. One artist doing all of them? Pianist?  ???
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Que on June 19, 2007, 05:49:12 AM
Harry, you didn't tell us who is singing, and I can't read it on the box you posted. One artist doing all of them? Pianist?  ???

Uffe, don't you remember? :)

It's the Hyperion Schubert Edition (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/details/44201.asp)!

Q
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Harry on June 19, 2007, 06:38:45 AM
Harry, you didn't tell us who is singing, and I can't read it on the box you posted. One artist doing all of them? Pianist?  ???

As Que, said Lis I posted that one before, and there was a story which now continues.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: uffeviking on June 19, 2007, 06:45:33 AM
Thank you all, Gentlemen, for jogging my memory! Actually, I missed the original post, sorry, but time is limited at times. I promise I shall keep better track of this continuing story, looking forward to 15th August, 2009, for the next installment!  ;D
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on June 19, 2007, 08:12:30 AM
I think that something more life enhancing for us all would be Harry letting us in on his secrets to making and developing the sort of friendships he has recently been hinting as....all these sugar mommies! They even re-offer rejected and spurned gifts and take the protesting one for a grand night out!

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Harry on June 19, 2007, 08:41:02 AM
I think that something more life enhancing for us all would be Harry letting us in on his secrets to making and developing the sort of friendships he has recently been hinting as....all these sugar mommies! They even re-offer rejected and spurned gifts and take the protesting one for a grand night out!

Mike

I was and am very lucky in my choice of ladies, that's all. 8)
Or rather they choose me, yes that's the issue, they somehow find me! :)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: uffeviking on June 19, 2007, 08:47:44 AM
Some day, Sir, some day you will grace us with a photographic replica of yourself so we, the ladies at GMG, or gentlemen - can judge for ourselves if a search for you is a worthwhile activity.  :-\
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on June 19, 2007, 09:42:52 AM
Pheromones.....its probably all in the pheromones.

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: uffeviking on June 19, 2007, 09:48:35 AM
Snapshots won't work then, eh?

There, they have been able to send men to the moon but have not invented electronic transfers of pheromones!  :(
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on June 19, 2007, 09:51:46 AM
Scratch and sniff photos might serve, though....Iago might then want to muscle in with his bodily gas displays as claimed on some other thread.

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Steve on June 19, 2007, 09:52:04 AM
I was and am very lucky in my choice of ladies, that's all. 8)
Or rather they choose me, yes that's the issue, they somehow find me! :)

It's that darn animal magnetism, Harry  ;)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on June 19, 2007, 09:55:52 AM
I was and am very lucky in my choice of ladies, that's all. 8)
Or rather they choose me, yes that's the issue, they somehow find me! :)

Zero Mostel says much the same in The Producers......Little old lady land plundered to finance his next flop.

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: uffeviking on June 19, 2007, 09:56:57 AM
If we don't return to Schubert pretty soon, some conservative, overzealous moderator might send this conversation to the Diner!   :(
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Steve on June 19, 2007, 10:00:35 AM
If we don't return to Schubert pretty soon, some conservative, overzealous moderator might send this conversation to the Diner!   :(

I wonder if Schubert knew about phermones...  :)


Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Harry on June 19, 2007, 10:10:17 AM
Some day, Sir, some day you will grace us with a photographic replica of yourself so we, the ladies at GMG, or gentlemen - can judge for ourselves if a search for you is a worthwhile activity.  :-\

You Lis collect men, I on the other hand women. 8)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Harry on June 19, 2007, 10:12:07 AM
Some day, Sir, some day you will grace us with a photographic replica of yourself so we, the ladies at GMG, or gentlemen - can judge for ourselves if a search for you is a worthwhile activity.  :-\

I assure you dear Lis, it is worth the effort. I have it from several trustworthy contacts.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Harry on June 19, 2007, 10:13:41 AM

It's that darn animal magnetism, Harry  ;)

Yes! ;D
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Harry on June 19, 2007, 10:16:41 AM
The layout of this box with a fine book going with it is a joy to see.
Its on the last pile out of 30 or so, it may take some time........, but I said that already.
The praise it garnered on this board and outside is stunning.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on June 19, 2007, 10:33:43 AM
Harry, You really must listen to those Schubert discs....OK??

Now, back to sniffing.

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Harry on June 19, 2007, 12:15:43 PM
Harry, You really must listen to those Schubert discs....OK??

Now, back to sniffing.

Mike

And the other beautiful cd's that are waiting? ;D
Hope the sniffing is pleasant.
I do my best Mike, but I make no promises. :)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: rubio on June 08, 2008, 11:06:53 AM
Any comments on this box set? Are most of Schubert's songs and the performances in this set of consistent high quality? Or is this mostly for the completist?

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0034571142012.jpg)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on June 08, 2008, 11:32:49 AM
Rubio, The set has had more or less universal praise. Part of its value lies with the notes that Graham Johnson wrote when he devised each disc. However, I have a feeling that the box-set has words, but not the mini essays to each song. Nevertheless, it is a great set to get hold of, especially if you can obtain it for a good price.

Most of the discs are designed around specific singers and contain a mixture of famous and obscure songs.

Schubert's duets and part songs are also in there, it really is very complete.

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: The new erato on June 08, 2008, 11:36:30 AM


Most of the discs are designed around specific singers and contain a mixture of famous and obscure songs.

Schubert's duets and part songs are also in there, it really is very complete.

Mike
This set has the songs chronologically and part of the fascination is the constantly changing voices. I know people who have BOTH the original single discs as well as this complete set and will part with neither!
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mn dave on June 08, 2008, 11:37:10 AM
Tempting...

Anyone been listening to the Naxos series?
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on June 08, 2008, 11:39:21 AM
Erato, Now, thank you for that, I had a notion they had been reordered, but thought my memory had to be at fault. So, they will not appear as mini-recitals, rather a systematic trawl through the order of composition. I can see why people might want both; as each way of listening will provide a very different experience.

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 09, 2008, 03:35:49 AM
Erato, Now, thank you for that, I had a notion they had been reordered, but thought my memory had to be at fault. So, they will not appear as mini-recitals, rather a systematic trawl through the order of composition. I can see why people might want both; as each way of listening will provide a very different experience.

Mike

I'm still waiting for the promised book by Graham Johnson that will include the essays that were part of the original single CD issues but in expanded form.

Sarge
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: The new erato on June 09, 2008, 03:51:16 AM
I'm still waiting for the promised book by Graham Johnson that will include the essays that were part of the original single CD issues but in expanded form.

Sarge
So am I!
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: rubio on June 10, 2008, 12:54:31 AM
I'm still waiting for the promised book by Graham Johnson that will include the essays that were part of the original single CD issues but in expanded form.

Sarge

I had to forward a question about this issue to Hyperion and was rewarded with a prompt answer:

Indeed, and we have been waiting for nearly three years now. Yale University Press will publish the book or books but still we have no information on a publishing date.
 
Regards.
 
Simon Perry
Director
Hyperion Records Limited
PO Box 25
London SE9 1AX
Tel: 020 8318 1234
Fax: 020 8463 1230
www.hyperion-records.co.uk
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mn dave on June 10, 2008, 04:04:42 AM
So...no one's listening to the Naxos CDs?
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on June 10, 2008, 09:28:18 AM
Sorry, No.....I have about 50 discs of Schubert songs and I don't feel I need many more right now.

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mn dave on June 10, 2008, 09:31:46 AM
Sorry, No.....I have about 50 discs of Schubert songs and I don't feel I need many more right now.

Mike

Well, I have Ameling and Munteanu and don't feel I need more right now.

But you never know...
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on June 10, 2008, 09:35:28 AM
Oh, you do need a bloke to bring some specific songs to life and provide contrast. Ameling was a beautiful singer, but in Schubert I find that different singers do bring new interpretations. That these differences tell me more about the song and the poetry. I hope you have texts with Ameling.

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mn dave on June 10, 2008, 09:37:42 AM
Oh, you do need a bloke to bring some specific songs to life and provide contrast. Ameling was a beautiful singer, but in Schubert I find that different singers do bring new interpretations. That these differences tell me more about the song and the poetry. I hope you have texts with Ameling.

Mike

Well, I have Fischer-Dieskau and ... some other guy as well.

No, no texts. I just...listen and enjoy the sound of their voices. I really should get texts though.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on June 10, 2008, 09:41:02 AM
I got the wrong end of the stick; I thought you only had Ameling.

Here is the site for you, the texts and translations, very useful.

http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mn dave on June 10, 2008, 09:44:16 AM
I got the wrong end of the stick; I thought you only had Ameling.

Here is the site for you, the texts and translations, very useful.

http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/

Mike

Thanks, Mike.

Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mn dave on June 10, 2008, 09:53:18 AM
Not sure if you like him, but this fellow (http://www.matthiasgoerne.de/) has kicked off a series of CDs.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on June 10, 2008, 09:57:23 AM
Yes, I do like him and have one Schubert disc by him. He is one of a number of very fine baritones who are giving us excellent discs of lied.

Of the ones you have heard are there any particular songs spike your interest?

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mn dave on June 10, 2008, 10:04:17 AM
Yes, I do like him and have one Schubert disc by him. He is one of a number of very fine baritones who are giving us excellent discs of lied.

Of the ones you have heard are there any particular songs spike your interest?

Mike

"Der Doppelganger" is a good one. That caught my attention the first time I heard it, many years ago.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on June 10, 2008, 10:09:23 AM
Yes, sinister and mysterious. If you fancy something a bit different...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Z7GJ19EGL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Schubert songs orchestrated by other, mostly great, composers. Again, it throws new light onto the songs and I always enjoy discovering how one composer makes use or takes an interest in another.

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mn dave on June 10, 2008, 10:14:18 AM
Yes, sinister and mysterious. If you fancy something a bit different...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Z7GJ19EGL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Schubert songs orchestrated by other, mostly great, composers. Again, it throws new light onto the songs and I always enjoy discovering how one composer makes use or takes an interest in another.

Mike

Very cool. If I can find it, I'll "wish list" it.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2008, 08:40:29 AM
I had to forward a question about this issue to Hyperion and was rewarded with a prompt answer:

Indeed, and we have been waiting for nearly three years now. Yale University Press will publish the book or books but still we have no information on a publishing date.
 
Regards.
 
Simon Perry
Director
Hyperion Records Limited
PO Box 25
London SE9 1AX
Tel: 020 8318 1234
Fax: 020 8463 1230
www.hyperion-records.co.uk


Rubio, thanks for the update although it still leaves us hanging.

Sarge
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2008, 08:44:23 AM
So...no one's listening to the Naxos CDs?

Not in this house. Since I have the complete Hyperion edition plus quite a few recital discs by other singers I like, there just isn't room for Naxos. If I were a Lieder specialist I'd want to hear them probably...but I'm not. Too much other music to listen to.

Sarge
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Brewski on June 11, 2008, 08:49:32 AM
Not sure if you like him, but this fellow (http://www.matthiasgoerne.de/) has kicked off a series of CDs.

Goerne has a gorgeous voice, and uses it very expressively.  The CD below of Schubert's Goethe-Lieder is one of my favorite vocal recordings. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mn dave on June 11, 2008, 03:40:59 PM
Looks good, Bruce.

I've decided to show you guys my Schubert lieder.  ;D

This is probably my favorite. It's just gorgeous:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RQHMHOqVL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

This is Schwarzkopf and Fischer. I bought this then forgot about it. Bad move, eh?

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/590/590718.jpg)

Here's Fischer-Dieskau and Moore from 1955. Everyone needs some F-D:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41049MFYV0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Larry Rinkel told me about this guy, and I'm glad he did!

(http://www.diverdi.com/files/ag/18924/89306_b.jpg)

So, that's it. Not much I guess.  :)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: uffeviking on June 11, 2008, 05:46:52 PM
Dave: maybe you could bring yourself to update your collection to contemporary singers, men and women not busy pushing up daisies. Follow Bruce's recommendation and you can't go wrong. Goerne caught my attention in Henze's successful opera L'Upupa. Since so many Schubert songs are based on the works of German poets it is almost essential the singer is thoroughly familiar with those poems.

If you do not speak German, by all means, do get the text to each of Schubert's songs, the music alone will not reveal to you the deep beauty of the compositions.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mn dave on June 11, 2008, 06:10:13 PM
Dave: maybe you could bring yourself to update your collection to contemporary singers, men and women not busy pushing up daisies. Follow Bruce's recommendation and you can't go wrong. Goerne caught my attention in Henze's successful opera L'Upupa. Since so many Schubert songs are based on the works of German poets it is almost essential the singer is thoroughly familiar with those poems.

If you do not speak German, by all means, do get the text to each of Schubert's songs, the music alone will not reveal to you the deep beauty of the compositions.

I agree. I'd love to.

So much music to buy. So little money.  ::)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mn dave on June 11, 2008, 06:58:21 PM
I used Mike's link above (Thanks, Mike!) and followed along to a few Schubert lieder from the CDs I mentioned. And you're right. It's not only nice to read what they're singing about, it added a whole new dimension to the songs for me, making them twice as potent--at least. However, as cool as that site is, I would much rather read translations from a book. Are there any books of this nature available?

Thanks, Schubertians.  :)

P.S. I listened to a couple Brahms songs as well (Bernarda Fink/Roger Vignoles) with translations. Gorgeous! Man, that is one killer album.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oZlDise2L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Que on June 11, 2008, 08:48:29 PM
I used Mike's link above (Thanks, Mike!) and followed along to a few Schubert lieder from the CDs I mentioned. And you're right. It's not only nice to read what they're singing about, it added a whole new dimension to the songs for me, making them twice as potent--at least. However, as cool as that site is, I would much rather read translations from a book. Are there any books of this nature available?

Thanks, Schubertians.  :)

For a comprehensive book with texts of German songs, this proved very worthwhile for me. 138 of its 713 pages are devoted to all major Schubert songs.

Though I can read German, it's still convenient for me to have so many texts available in this way. Very handy when I listen to historical recordings that never include them. BTW the English translations seem quite good to me.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EC30BZ36L._SS500_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Book-Lieder-Original-Text-Songs/dp/0571224393/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213249474&sr=8-1)
                                   linked

Q
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mn dave on June 12, 2008, 03:13:12 AM
Thanks, Que!
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Brewski on June 12, 2008, 05:38:18 AM
P.S. I listened to a couple Brahms songs as well (Bernarda Fink/Roger Vignoles) with translations. Gorgeous! Man, that is one killer album.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oZlDise2L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Dave, thanks for mentioning this.  I've just recently heard Fink for the first time (live, in the Mahler 2) and would like to hear more of her.  This looks like an excellent recording. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mn dave on June 12, 2008, 05:39:50 AM
Dave, thanks for mentioning this.  I've just recently heard Fink for the first time (live, in the Mahler 2) and would like to hear more of her.  This looks like an excellent recording. 

--Bruce

My heartstrings aren't your heartstrings, but I dare say, you will be moved.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Tsaraslondon on June 12, 2008, 06:09:04 AM


This is Schwarzkopf and Fischer. I bought this then forgot about it. Bad move, eh?

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/590/590718.jpg)



Forgetting about it was an extremely bad move. Buying it was not. This is one of the classic Schubert recitals, Schwarzkopf and Fischer being entirely at one in their vision. I don't necessarily agree with the Schwarzkopf detractors, who find her style too artificial and mannered, something I deplore in the singing of Ian Bostridge, for instance. However this recital was recorded at a time when Schwarzkopf's voice was at its freshest, her manner quite direct. Amongst so many lovely performances, I find it hard to single out particular songs, but I love this version of Gretchen am Spinnrade more than any I know, though Schwarzkopf herself criticised it in later years as being too operatic. Maybe that's why I love it. When Schwarzkopf describes the moment that Faust kissed her, she sings the words sein Kuss with a barely restrained horror, that I have never encountered in any other performance. This is after all the moment that changed Margarethe's life irrevocably for ever. I also love Fischer's exquisite playing in Auf dem Wasser zu singen, his deft handling of the accompaniment rippling through the song like moonlight on the water.



Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on June 12, 2008, 06:47:02 AM
Dave, I am glad the link has spurred you on. A book is in many ways better, you may not want to listen while tied to your computer.

I, as usual, see eye to eye with TL. The Schwarzkopf disc is a beauty. I also have the Ameling you mention. It is a mixed Schubert and Schumann recital, played on fortepiano, it is a great favourite of mine.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Schubert-Lieder-Franz/dp/B000002SEJ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1213284924&sr=1-1

I urge this double disc on you. It is a conflation of two earlyish Janet Baker LPs and one she made much later for EMI. There are so many highlights, but the words are vital. Litanei is a prayer and she brings an astonishing stillness to the piece.

An de untergehende Sonne is one of Schubert's nature songs; tender and with a beautiful falling melody. It is strophic in form, each verse given its own character and another song with a beautifully peaceful close to it.

Simon Keenlyside produced a disc for Classics for Pleasure. The accompaniest is one of the most perceptive; Malcolm Martineau. Du bist de Ruh is as beautiful as when Margaret Price or Janowitz delivered it.

Martineau also guided the young Terfel safely through Schwanengesang. He shakes the ground in Der Atlas, his juicy voice coping with a great deal of pressure, but it sounds neither operatic nor vulgar. By contrast he provides agony in Aufenthalt.

So many great performancess out there. I could go on and on.

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mn dave on June 12, 2008, 06:53:37 AM
Thanks, guys. All duly noted...and wishlisted.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Ciel_Rouge on February 24, 2009, 07:04:15 PM
I recently learned here:

http://www.emiclassics.com/podcasts/podcast.xml

that a Bostridge/Pappano Schwanengesang is out. Has anyone listened to it yet?

(http://www.the-woods.co.uk/assets/images/2426392.jpg)

I think that Schwanengesang and perhaps other Lieder are not really that demaning on the listener - they just seem very simple on paper but turn out to be very demaning both on the vocal performer (high precision and proper expressiveness) as well as on the pianist (the same). I found many versions of Schwanengesang simply annoying :) but the very same pieces played as excerpts in this podcast sounded VERY different and I had the impression they were bringing out the true beauty of the Lieder and perhaps Schubert's original intentions.

Since I find Pregardien's voice to sound rather similar to Bostridge (a very general comparison of course) I also wonder what are your opinions about the Pregardien/Staier:

(http://www.challenge.nl/cms2/images/product/1220017089-0.jpg)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on March 13, 2009, 10:36:42 AM

. . . a Bostridge/Pappano Schwanengesang is out. Has anyone listened to it yet?

(http://www.the-woods.co.uk/assets/images/2426392.jpg)


Got it in the mail yesterday and have listened to it three times since! What joy to hear those two great artist working together. No, I do not have the Wolf Lieder CD, but it's in my shopping cart. I already have the Pregardien/Staier performance and like it very much also, but somehow it sounds to me that Pappano is the more involved and understanding pianist. Of course he shines in the hit among all the other songs: 'Abschied' and with Bostridge's heavenly clear ending of all the 'Ades', I might wear out track 10.

I love Bostridge for being a wonderful Lieder singer, especially the German ones. His pronunciation is impeccable and his voice just schmalzig enough, when needed, as in 'Ständchen'. Yes, a great pair, Pappano and Bostridge, now I am looking foreward to the Wolf. Anybody know it?
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: zamyrabyrd on March 15, 2009, 12:51:16 AM
I think that Schwanengesang and perhaps other Lieder are not really that demaning on the listener - they just seem very simple on paper but turn out to be very demaning both on the vocal performer (high precision and proper expressiveness) as well as on the pianist (the same).

So true about 'demanding' on the performer(s), but well worth the effort!

In a local Schubert concert two weeks ago, a flute and piano duo played the redoubtable Variations on "Trockne Blumen", one of a few songs quoted in instrumental versions by Schubert himself. What a brilliant piece of music!

I thought that the primo part of the Andantino Varie would be a cinch to learn but found out that its simplicity was quite deceptive, so I was working almost until the last minute, revising fingerings, etc. My student sang the "Trout" while I was fumbling along with the accompaniment. (Someone said that singing teachers should have accompanists, even if you happen to know how to play. Yes, there is something to it as it is difficult to split one's concentration on the singer and the piano part at the same time.) And I also threw in the Impromptu Op. 90 #4, even had the nerve to play it by memory.

ZB
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on March 15, 2009, 03:17:49 AM
I am afraid I now have a completely tin ear for Bostridge. I have even got rid of discs of his. I find him mannered and hate the way he will sacrifice the line for verbal acuity. Other singers manage perfectly well to communicate the words without chopping up the legato. He also plays the toothpaste-tube trick a lot; squeezing the tone to 'express'' something or other. Altogether...I just can't stand him now. I have some early discs with him as part of the 'cast' and have kept them, but no recitals...they all went west.

As to some Schubert seeming undemanding for the listener: certainly, but that is managed by an art that hides art. They are far from easy to perform. When I was singing quite a bit, I tended to avoid the strophic songs. Not because I thought them boring; but because I thought they were more difficult to sing, yet keep them alive during each successive verse.

A lot looks easy on the page; but is in reality very difficult. Like Mozart or Bach, the simpler it looks, the more likely it will expose any shortcomings in technique.

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Ten thumbs on March 15, 2009, 04:35:16 AM
It does strike me that, as the Schwanengesang were never intended as a cycle by the composer, they could with some effect be sung in a different order.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on March 15, 2009, 04:52:56 AM
You are right and it has been done. Brigitte Fassbaender recorded a version, Gramophone award winner, where she altered the order to produce a narrative. It goes to the edge of derangement and is abetted by Aribert Reiman. The final song becomes 'Der Atlas'. Both she and Bryn Terfel provide epic, groundshaking tone. I wonder what Bostridge-lite attempts here? In each version, 'Doppleganger' is the penultimate song.

I highly recommend Fassbaender; but it is a discomforting journey.

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on March 15, 2009, 07:11:33 AM
I am afraid I now have a completely tin ear for Bostridge.
Mike

Thanks for the cold Sunday morning chuckle, Mike! So many GMG members, and so many different ears, how entertaining and educating. Next time I listen to this Bostridge performance I will make it a point to think of your evaluation of his way of Lieder singing.  :-*
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on March 15, 2009, 09:15:49 AM
It does strike me that, as the Schwanengesang were never intended as a cycle by the composer, they could with some effect be sung in a different order.

Here is the order of the songs on the Bostridge/Pappano disc:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Track Listings
1. Geheimnis D491 
2. An Schwager Kronos D369 
3. Widerschein D949 
4. Liebesbotschaft 
5. Kriegers Ahnung 
6. Frühlingssehnsucht 
7. Ständchen 
8. Aufenthalt 
9. In der Ferne 
10. Abschied 
11. Der Atlas 
12. Ihr Bild 
13. Das Fischermädchen 
14. Die Stadt 
15. Am Meer 
16. Der Doppelgänger 
17. Taubenpost D965 A 
18. Abschied D475 

The first three songs chosen by Bostridge are outside the usual Schwanengesang presentation. Geheimnis is written by the poet Johann Mayrhofer, Schubert's friend, who had committed suicide. The last song on the disc Abschied is also by Mayrhofer. Wiederschein is a poem by another friend of Schubert: Franz Xaver von Schlechta.

To void the unlucky number 13, the Viennese publisher Tobias Haslinger added the poem Taubenpost, poem by Seidl.

And I learned all that by reading the enclosed booklet, something I seldom do!  ;)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Que on March 15, 2009, 01:48:32 PM
I am afraid I now have a completely tin ear for Bostridge. I have even got rid of discs of his. I find him mannered and hate the way he will sacrifice the line for verbal acuity. Other singers manage perfectly well to communicate the words without chopping up the legato. He also plays the toothpaste-tube trick a lot; squeezing the tone to 'express'' something or other. Altogether...I just can't stand him now. I have some early discs with him as part of the 'cast' and have kept them, but no recitals...they all went west.

Mike, absolutely, completely agree with that assesment.... :o 

Q
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Novi on March 18, 2009, 05:19:20 AM
I am afraid I now have a completely tin ear for Bostridge. I have even got rid of discs of his. I find him mannered and hate the way he will sacrifice the line for verbal acuity. Other singers manage perfectly well to communicate the words without chopping up the legato. He also plays the toothpaste-tube trick a lot; squeezing the tone to 'express'' something or other. Altogether...I just can't stand him now. I have some early discs with him as part of the 'cast' and have kept them, but no recitals...they all went west.


Mike

I know what you mean. He over-enunciates to the point where he's almost biting off the words, and he mugs a lot on stage as well, lolling all over the piano :-\. All up, doesn't work for me either.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on March 18, 2009, 12:11:24 PM
This month's BBC Music Mag gives it a very mixed reception; one or two good performances, others compromised by the kind of defects I mentioned. Come on Lis; have another listen to it and tell us what is happening.

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on March 18, 2009, 12:28:06 PM
I have listened to it twice, Mike, really listened, and then at least five times as background while writing, and I have not changed my appraisal at all, in fact, I even learned to like it better. I like his way of singing German Lieder. As you all know, I am not a trained musician, I am listening with my heart, my feelings, my emotions. If Bostridge violates your professional conviction of how certain notes and phrases should be sung, I respect your opinion.

I think I said it before: Diversity of opinion makes an interesting forum!

 :-*
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on March 18, 2009, 02:22:23 PM
Lis, You should have been a lawyer.

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on March 18, 2009, 02:48:37 PM
and he mugs a lot on stage as well, lolling all over the piano .

The Schwanengesang I have is a CD, and since it is not a video, I don't care if Bostridge does the Sirshasan - that's Tandric for 'Headstand', in case you are unfamiliar with Hatha Yoga - on the piano or a Purzelbaum - that's German for somersault! - over the piano.  ;D
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Ten thumbs on March 24, 2009, 08:51:39 AM
You are right and it has been done. Brigitte Fassbaender recorded a version, Gramophone award winner, where she altered the order to produce a narrative. It goes to the edge of derangement and is abetted by Aribert Reiman. The final song becomes 'Der Atlas'. Both she and Bryn Terfel provide epic, groundshaking tone. I wonder what Bostridge-lite attempts here? In each version, 'Doppleganger' is the penultimate song.

I highly recommend Fassbaender; but it is a discomforting journey.

Mike
On a similar subject, Schubert altered the order of the poems in Wintereise. It has been suggested that he did this through accidentally dropping his copy of the text but I don't believe this. I think the alteration intentional. There is therefore no justification for performing these songs in the poet's original order, which puts 'Muth' as the penultimate poem.
I used to sing at the piano and have a volume including Wintereise for low voice. On occasion I sang through this but, looking at it, I can see that it is not suitable for a complete performance because the key alterations are variable: some are down a major third but others are even in the original key. This means that the key relationships are wrong. What is more some of the songs are probably intentionally higher on the voice to increase tension. Are the recordings generally in the original keys?
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: zamyrabyrd on March 25, 2009, 11:16:18 PM
Thanks for the cold Sunday morning chuckle, Mike! So many GMG members, and so many different ears, how entertaining and educating. Next time I listen to this Bostridge performance I will make it a point to think of your evaluation of his way of Lieder singing.  :-*

Judging by some comments of German speakers on youtube, this Engländer manages to convince them and me as well: Bostridge in "Forelle"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk-TXzUlJhs

Erlkönig (nice piano playing, too)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eS7XRXAGtw&NR=1

Im Frühling
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MCK4KnbQ7w&feature=related

ZB
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on March 26, 2009, 01:15:39 PM
His German is seemingly excellent; it is his singing I don't like. Perhaps he should take up acting...in German....in Germany.

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on March 26, 2009, 06:48:01 PM
   :P



    :-*
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: MN Dave on January 31, 2010, 06:16:54 AM
This topic should be hotter.  :-\

Anyhoo, downloaded this beast yesterday.

(http://media.virginmega.fr/Covers/Large/EMI/0077776950358.jpg)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on January 31, 2010, 06:19:35 AM
I agree, do make it a bit hotter and tell us about the disc.

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: MN Dave on January 31, 2010, 06:21:07 AM
What's to tell? It's Fischer-Dieskau.  ;D The guy everyone else is compared to. Er... the men anyway.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Que on January 31, 2010, 06:25:11 AM
What's to tell? It's Fischer-Dieskau.  ;D The guy everyone else is compared to. Er... the men anyway.

You mean: compared to ..... Hotter? 8)

Q
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: MN Dave on January 31, 2010, 06:26:35 AM
Well, I mentioned above that this thread should be "hotter".  ;D
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on January 31, 2010, 07:57:50 AM
DFD was mentioned on the Vocal Recital threads a day ago. There I repeated an opinion that although much admired, he is not greatly loved as a singer and that, it was suggested, his discs were often bought, then not much listened to.

He was one of the postwar singers who supposedly pushed lieder into a more expressive art form. But listen to a number of earlier singers and you will hear as much detail, vocal colouring and that ability to tell a story or to take you on a journey. But DFD developed an unusually wide repertoire, in song and Lied as in opera. He recorded all the solo Schubert songs for male voice.

For almost all the tracks on the disc you have bought he was 40, only 33 for the final track, Erlkonig. The voice was still in its prime along with his ability to carry legato, yet point the words.

Much later, the voice darkened, dried out and he often had a tendency to break up the line and was accused of barking the words, an exaggeration of course. But on this disc he has achieved the balance between the art of singing and the art of communication.

As to the songs, there is no theme, no particular poet, but rather a miscellaneous selection of out of the way songs, sprinkled with a handful of the most famous. If you listen to 'Litanei' you can hear the interpretation of this meditation to be inward with a wonderful sense of legato. 'Nachtgesang' brings out a darker colouring to the voice and that wonderful ability to follow Schubert's leaps in the vocal line and integrate the sound.

By contrast, 'Erlkonig' pushes the drama to the point where the vocal sound becomes ugly. Here some may part company with him by suggesting that Schubert does not call for that kind of sound, seemingly no longer schooled for a number of desperate bars at a time. But this is really carefully calculated; if not drama here in extremis, then in Schubert's output where?

'Das Lied im Grünen' is one of Schubert's nature songs, relishing the countryside, it is strophic, eight verses. But Schubert retains interest by cleverly varying the rhythms in the vocal line. Here is one song that really has to be carried by the singer and it takes a good one to bring this off. So often it is more of a partnership between pianist and singer, but here the accompaniment suggests a swift, jaunty walk without the need to offer much more than reliable support.

The very next song, 'Der Tod und das Madchen', only two short verses, the anxious maiden entreats Death, who beguiles her with an easeful death. Here the pianist has to set the atmosphere and Moore is always attentive, the rubato showing how closely they connected when performing. A beautiful performance.

I could go on.....and on. Lots of things to say about each song. It is a rewarding disc. No translations, but here is a site where they can be found.

http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/

Mike


Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: MN Dave on January 31, 2010, 08:33:06 AM
As usual, you are a vocal information trove, Mike.  :) Thanks, again. I was using that site you linked just yesterday.

I'm sticking to single discs for lieder--no boxes; that way I can try out different singers.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 31, 2010, 08:40:48 AM
As usual, you are a vocal information trove, Mike.  :) Thanks, again. I was using that site you linked just yesterday.

I'm sticking to single discs for lieder--no boxes; that way I can try out different singers.

That being the case, Dave, I strongly recommend this one (http://www.amazon.com/Matthias-Goerne-Schubert-Lieder-Goethe/dp/B0000041LC/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1264955885&sr=1-4)... (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VKASPXB8L._SS500_.jpg)

The singing is outstanding and the accompaniment too. I am delighted with, and I think maybe you would be too. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Ingrid Haebler / Ludwig Hoffman - K 497 Sonata in F for Piano 4 Hands 2nd mvmt - Andante
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: MN Dave on January 31, 2010, 08:44:22 AM
That's actually been recommended before in this thread, so it MUST be good. I think by Bruce. And it's still on my wishlist.  :-[
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 31, 2010, 08:50:28 AM
That's actually been recommended before in this thread, so it MUST be good. I think by Bruce. And it's still on my wishlist.  :-[

Yeah, Bruce is a big fan of; I think he has seen him in recital a couple times. He may have been the one that recommended to me, although all of the mods responded positively when I queried them last year. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Ingrid Haebler / Ludwig Hoffman - K 497a 357 #1 Sonatensatz in G for Piano 4 Hands - Allegro
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 31, 2010, 09:20:58 AM
I'm sticking to single discs for lieder--no boxes; that way I can try out different singers.

I don't know if has been previously recommended in this thread, but the Winterreise by Max van Egmond and Penelope Crawford on Musica Omnia is just superb. Not van Egmond/Immerseel on Channel Classics - I also have it-, but van Egmond/Crawford. A great and seasoned singer, a sensitive pianist and a delightful fortepiano.

AMAZON (http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-baritone-Penelope-Crawford-fortepiano/dp/B000NHKD02/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1264957365&sr=8-16)   

 :)


Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: MN Dave on January 31, 2010, 10:35:47 AM
Thanks, Antoine. Much appreciated...and wishlisted.  :)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: rickardg on January 31, 2010, 12:38:38 PM
Just de-lurking to say that this recording of Winterreise with DFD and Gerald Moore was one of the records that got me into classical music.
(http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/imgs/s200x200/4151872.jpg)

I found the interplay between the voice and the piano, the constant shifts that lets the lyrics colour the music and vice versa, abolutely fascinating.

A friend who studied piano lent it to me and when I finally got around to returning it he said I could keep it since he'd already bought a new copy.  So this particular copy was certainly much listened to, and still is.

This is not much of a recommendation BTW since I haven't heard any of the alternatives.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: MN Dave on January 31, 2010, 12:39:47 PM
I actually had that one, Rickard; and I agree, it's stellar.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: kishnevi on January 31, 2010, 06:49:18 PM
That being the case, Dave, I strongly recommend this one (http://www.amazon.com/Matthias-Goerne-Schubert-Lieder-Goethe/dp/B0000041LC/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1264955885&sr=1-4)... (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VKASPXB8L._SS500_.jpg)

The singing is outstanding and the accompaniment too. I am delighted with, and I think maybe you would be too. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Ingrid Haebler / Ludwig Hoffman - K 497 Sonata in F for Piano 4 Hands 2nd mvmt - Andante

He is now doing a sort of cycle (IIRC, twelve CDs, of which 4 have been issued, but not meant to be a "complete" set of the songs) on Harmonia Mundi, with a different pianist for each installment.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EBz4S08EL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
is the latest, most of them songs that are, if not exactly off the beaten path, aren't usually on it, either.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 31, 2010, 07:08:34 PM
He is now doing a sort of cycle (IIRC, twelve CDs, of which 4 have been issued, but not meant to be a "complete" set of the songs) on Harmonia Mundi, with a different pianist for each installment.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EBz4S08EL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
is the latest, most of them songs that are, if not exactly off the beaten path, aren't usually on it, either.

Cool, thanks for that info. Seems like everyone and his brother does Winterreise, it is nice to hear something else for a change. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
English Baroque Soloists / Gardiner Bilson - K 503 Concerto #25 in C for Piano 1st mvmt - Allegro maestoso
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Lethevich on February 01, 2010, 04:54:28 PM
Re. Bostridge in Schubert - does this criticism have any merit?

"Bostridge will never learn German. In 'Auf der Bruck' he actually manages to sing "Was scheisst(!) du dich vor Busch und Ast', in 'Ständchen' he mixes up the words 'wachen' and 'wachsen' and in 'Der Tod und das Mädchen' he sings 'guten Muts' instead of "gutes Muts'. And there was nobody in the studio to tell him. Very embarrassing!"

(In reference to The Wanderer CD.)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 02, 2010, 03:49:00 AM
Cool, thanks for that info. Seems like everyone and his brother

and sister

Quote
does Winterreise

Sarge
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 02, 2010, 03:58:12 AM
I'm sticking to single discs for lieder--no boxes; that way I can try out different singers.

The Hyperion box employs 58 singers plus two choral groups. Just sayin'  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 02, 2010, 05:32:23 AM
and sister

Sarge

Yup, sorry, forgot her... :-\

:)

8)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Brewski on February 02, 2010, 07:05:10 AM
Yeah, Bruce is a big fan of; I think he has seen him in recital a couple times. He may have been the one that recommended to me, although all of the mods responded positively when I queried them last year. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Ingrid Haebler / Ludwig Hoffman - K 497a 357 #1 Sonatensatz in G for Piano 4 Hands - Allegro

Yes, I'm a big fan of Goerne.  He has a beautiful instrument and uses it intelligently, and as you said, Haefliger is splendid, too. 

Now if only they would release a DVD of him in Wozzeck...oh sorry, off-topic.  ;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: sTisTi on February 02, 2010, 09:07:13 AM
The Hyperion box employs 58 singers plus two choral groups. Just sayin'  ;)

Sarge
And the good thing is that  since Hyperion introduced a direct download option on their website one can even pick & choose among the different discs without buying the big box. You can download whole discs or just single tracks you want to have. Just be sure to choose the "FLAC" lossless download, not the compressed MP3 as the price is the same. With FLAC you have the original, uncompressed audio data of the CD and can still also create MP3 or other lossy formats later on if you want to. I did a lot of cherry picking from Herrick's complete Bach organ works and the Schubert Lieder CDs during the past weeks  ;D
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 01, 2010, 11:45:39 AM
Today is a great day. A GREAT DAY I tell you! It is a day for celebration! Have you guessed? NO?!?! 

I have now, after much collecting and listening, acquired the final disc to complete the Hyperion Schubert Collection! I actually never intended to do it, but slowly and surely over time (with many thanks to Berkshire) I did collect the entire collection. This has been one of the most rewarding explorations I have ever encountered. I have received countless hours of enjoyment from these discs.  And now the pain in my pocket will go away too.... :P

Until the next set...
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: The new erato on March 01, 2010, 01:48:33 PM
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/7773552.jpg)

There's a 21 CD Loewe Edition on cpo. Just sayin'.....
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 01, 2010, 01:51:41 PM
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/7773552.jpg)

There's a 21 CD Loewe Edition on cpo. Just sayin'.....

welll, errr, sheepishly admits that this is already on order.... :o .... ;D
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2010, 02:04:32 PM
Today is a great day. A GREAT DAY I tell you! It is a day for celebration! Have you guessed? NO?!?! 

I have now, after much collecting and listening, acquired the final disc to complete the Hyperion Schubert Collection! I actually never intended to do it, but slowly and surely over time (with many thanks to Berkshire) I did collect the entire collection. This has been one of the most rewarding explorations I have ever encountered. I have received countless hours of enjoyment from these discs.  And now the pain in my pocket will go away too.... :P

Until the next set...

Congratulations! I know how you feel. I am within an eyelash of the complete recorded works of Haydn, and it's been a challenge.

Of course, it's just a matter of time before that little, hollow aching feeling comes on you... :'(

;D

8)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on March 01, 2010, 02:49:52 PM
I have enjoyed those Schubert booklets as much as I enjoy the music. I only have a handfull of the discs, but may well add to them. I have quite a number of Schubert recitals, so did not feel I needed to buy so many more.

But the Hyperion set is so good, I know I will pick them up here and there.

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: zamyrabyrd on March 02, 2010, 12:24:08 AM
DFD was mentioned on the Vocal Recital threads a day ago. There I repeated an opinion that although much admired, he is not greatly loved as a singer and that, it was suggested, his discs were often bought, then not much listened to.

I nearly wore out the vinyl or some of them.

For almost all the tracks on the disc you have bought he was 40, only 33 for the final track, Erlkonig. The voice was still in its prime along with his ability to carry legato, yet point the words.
... Lots of things to say about each song. It is a rewarding disc...


I have the same disc but a different cover from EMI Classics.  A true "Classic" in the best sense of the word.

ZB
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: sospiro on April 06, 2010, 09:38:53 AM
I've only just started to get interested in Schubert Lieder (have only got this so far.)  I got it as I'm going to a recital by Simon Keenlyside at Temple Church in London in October.

(http://i44.tinypic.com/314s1uh.jpg)

I would really appreciate some help and guidance about starting a collection but I don't know whether I'd want the entire collection.

Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on April 06, 2010, 11:04:17 AM
If you read through this thread, it should give some suggestions. My personal favourite is the following double disc, it is very inexpensive.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EHTVCMD3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Janet Baker has a very expressive voice and these performances are excellent. There is a mix of well, and less well known songs.

There will be no printed copies of the words with the discs, vital to understand what is going on. This site will give them all in German plus an English translation.

 http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/

But, to learn about Schubert and his songs, it is not possible to beat the notes with the song discs on Hyperion. You could dip into this series buying a couple of individual discs. The Anthony Rolfe Johnson one is beautiful, all songs about 'Night', he has a superb tenor voice. The Margaret Price one is also excellent.

Best to buy a disc or so and really get to know the songs, then move on, there is so much to explore.

He wrote three sets of songs, two are true cycles and one is a collection made by his publisher after his death. These are regarded as amongst the best of all writing for voice and piano.

Here is the DG set with Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau. It is available at bargain price.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21YwPYj1pZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Most here use mail order. I like Amazon and their Marketplace sellers, but others use quite a variety of outlets.

Enjoy!

Mike

Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: sospiro on April 06, 2010, 07:47:59 PM
 :) Thanks Mike - that's very helpful
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 06, 2010, 10:46:20 PM
Some good suggestions from Mike. There are many Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau (DFD) individual discs and recitals worth having. They exist in so many combinations and re-incarnations. The thing you need to check is if you are duplicating (if you buy more than one), as many of these discs will duplicate songs. Here are a couple examples:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411BT4TDDPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FcG-0kOuL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

As mentioned, you can certainly pick and choose individual discs from the Hyperion set. Hyperion have also put together an inexpensive sampler, and that may be of more interest to you initially. This will have all sorts of different voices, and that may be useful as well if you are not certain what type of voice you prefer. Keenlyside contributed to some discs of the Hyperion series, so you could alternatively pick up one of those instead. No. 24 might be a good choice (where he appears with several other singers). If you do a search, you'll find the others he appears on. One other suggestion with the Hyperion series - listen to the snippets from their website as they are usually longer than you will get at sites like Amazon and give you a better idea of whether you like a given disc/song (it's http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk). The two I talk about look like this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21JCVG1P8FL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21F4VYXAEXL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

There are also a couple of ongoing series to pick from. There is a series on Naxos and a series from Matthias Goerne.

If you decide to buy anything in bulk, I would also suggest checking out a site called Berkshire Record Outlet. They sell overstock, remainders, etc. They have many from the Naxos and Hyperion series, and can make the exploration process a bit less painful on the pocketbook.

A final thought is Fritz Wunderlich, a singer with a wonderful voice, but died quite young. He has a few Schubert discs, but I would suggest the one below if you want to explore a little beyond Schubert. It includes 8 Schubert songs, but also a couple Beethoven and Schumann's great cycle, Dichterliebe.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4144R0E3M9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Lastly, if you know the program, you can try to focus on some of what you will hear at the recital. In any case, it may help you focus a bit when there is so much to choose from (and narrow the choices). I hope you will enjoy it!
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Verena on April 07, 2010, 04:56:19 AM
Quote
A final thought is Fritz Wunderlich, a singer with a wonderful voice, but died quite young. He has a few Schubert discs, but I would suggest the one below if you want to explore a little beyond Schubert. It includes 8 Schubert songs, but also a couple Beethoven and Schumann's great cycle, Dichterliebe.

Wonderful voice indeed! It is really sad that he recorded Schubert's Schöne Müllerin several times (I think at least four times), but never ever my favorite cycle Winterreise.
My absolute favorite among Schubert singers, and among Baritons in general, is Gerard Souzay. When he was young he had an absolutely splendid voice, small-scaled but extraordinary timbre. Testament has a Schubert recital by Souzay in his prime.
http://www.testament.co.uk/shop/product.aspx?id=404
Unfortunately, the Winterreise on Testament was recorded at a time when he was past his prime. His voice lost much of its splendor from 1960 onwards IMO.
In general, I prefer Souzay's (early) recordings to those of Fischer-Dieskau. For one thing, the voice strikes me as more beautiful. For another, I often find Fischer-Dieskau's interpretations somehow exaggerated, more interpretation than singing; a bit like a teacher pointing out with great emphasis certain things one might not have noticed otherwise. Also, I somehow like the way Souzay pronounces German, although (or perhaps because) unlike Fischer-Dieskau he is not a native speaker of German.
That said, I still love some of Fischer-Dieskau's early Schubert and Schumann recordings on Emi, audite, and Orfeo.


Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: sospiro on April 07, 2010, 08:46:07 AM
@ ukrneal

Thank you so much for your tips & information.  It's all extremely useful.  If you don't mind I'm going to save your comments on my PC for future reference.

I don't now what the programme is yet but hopefully it will be published before the event.

http://www.templemusic.org/events/2010/10/22

Other recitals http://www.templesong.com/
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on April 07, 2010, 08:49:38 AM
Looks like a lovely venue. Keenlyside is sure to engage the ear. I hope you enjoy it.

Mike

Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 07, 2010, 09:14:15 AM
@ ukrneal

Thank you so much for your tips & information.  It's all extremely useful.  If you don't mind I'm going to save your comments on my PC for future reference.

I don't now what the programme is yet but hopefully it will be published before the event.

http://www.templemusic.org/events/2010/10/22

Other recitals http://www.templesong.com/

Sure - and the comments will stay here in any case.  :D

The temple church is one of my favorite sites in London. A Schubert concert there sounds absolutely fantastic. 
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Tsaraslondon on April 07, 2010, 09:57:58 AM
I am second to none in my admiration for Fritz Wunderlich, only to add that that there are also several live recordings of him singing Schumann's Dichterliebe, the very best of which is a recording from the Edinburgh festival, which is, I believe, the last appearance he made before his untimely death. It shows that he was a thinking artist, and probes much deeper into the songs than the DG recording, which was made about a year ealier.

I would also recommend this marvellous disc of Schwarzkopf in wonderfully fresh voice, accompanied by the great Edwin Fischer.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41E2VSXEZ5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Verena on April 07, 2010, 10:05:37 AM
Quote
I would also recommend this marvellous disc of Schwarzkopf in wonderfully fresh voice, accompanied by the great Edwin Fischer.

Yeah, that's a great disc. I remember being very impressed by it when I listened to it some time ago. Have to give it another spin.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 07, 2010, 08:55:24 PM

My absolute favorite among Schubert singers, and among Baritons in general, is Gerard Souzay. When he was young he had an absolutely splendid voice, small-scaled but extraordinary timbre. Testament has a Schubert recital by Souzay in his prime.
http://www.testament.co.uk/shop/product.aspx?id=404

Yes, absolutely beautiful disc. Heartily seconded.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on April 07, 2010, 10:28:54 PM
The following disc is not exclusively of Schubert, but it is an unusual disc and well worth looking for. The Royal Academy chooses a handful of student singers each year and produces a song disc. This year's programme is titled, 'Gothe's Girl's and Morike's Men'. It is a beautifully planned disc and looks at aspects of romance from first flowering to loss.

The notes with the disc are first rate; looking at the social background and the poets lives in detail. The words are there and translations. All this for next to nothing. It can be got for £4.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Goethes-Morikes-Circle-students-Academy/dp/B002YXGMDK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1270711622&sr=1-1

Some of these young singers show considerable promise. Spot future stars here.....and one mediocre singer.

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Mandryka on June 21, 2010, 07:46:33 AM
For me there is a greatest performance of Winterreise – Peter Schreier’s with Richter.

Schreier’s achievement is about identification – it’s as if, when he sings, he isn’t just telling the story of someone on a cold journey. He is actually on that journey, suffering etc.

I find this Cd so candid that it is almost unbearable.

As much as I wouldn’t myself be without Hynninen, Pregardien, Hotter, Huesch, FiDi  (55 live from Prades) and maybe some others, this Schreier/Richter recording seems to me in a different league. Superior to them all. Despite reservations about his voice, or tempo.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Scarpia on June 21, 2010, 07:49:04 AM
And the good thing is that  since Hyperion introduced a direct download option on their website one can even pick & choose among the different discs without buying the big box. You can download whole discs or just single tracks you want to have. Just be sure to choose the "FLAC" lossless download, not the compressed MP3 as the price is the same. With FLAC you have the original, uncompressed audio data of the CD and can still also create MP3 or other lossy formats later on if you want to. I did a lot of cherry picking from Herrick's complete Bach organ works and the Schubert Lieder CDs during the past weeks  ;D

Does Hyperion us a digital rights management system?
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: sTisTi on June 23, 2010, 06:35:28 AM
Does Hyperion us a digital rights management system?
No, not at all, you're getting standard lossless files (or MP3s if you choose so) without any restrictions. In fact, AFAIK neither the FLAC nor the MP3 format even supports any form of DRM system, so good for us users  ;D
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Mandryka on July 05, 2010, 06:43:44 AM
Petre Munteanu is a light tenor who is perhaps most well known for recordings he made with Herman Scherchen. I had heard that his lieder records were good - but up to now they had been a bit to expensive to take a punt. But a few weeks ago I noticed that you can download Dichterliebe, Schwanengesang and Schoene Muellerin very cheaply from amazon - so I took a chance.

What a glorious voice, naturally charismatic without a hint of artfulness .- His Mullerin especially is completely charming. He sings it straight. It's as if he's just talking to you, in music - the music entering the language. Not drama, no opera - just heart wrenching authentic music making. The polar opposite of Julius Patzak's histrionics.

I like Patzak myself - but I like this too. Good sound. Highly recommended.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: ccar on July 05, 2010, 08:13:25 AM
Petre Munteanu is a light tenor who is perhaps most well known for recordings he made with Herman Scherchen. I had heard that his lieder records were good - but up to now they had been a bit to expensive to take a punt. But a few weeks ago I noticed that you can download Dichterliebe, Schwanengesang and Schoene Muellerin very cheaply from amazon - so I took a chance.

What a glorious voice, naturally charismatic without a hint of artfulness .- His Mullerin especially is completely charming. He sings it straight. It's as if he's just talking to you, in music - the music entering the language. Not drama, no opera - just heart wrenching authentic music making. The polar opposite of Julius Patzak's histrionics.

I like Patzak myself - but I like this too. Good sound. Highly recommended.


Absolutely.

Munteanu is one of the most impressive combinations of beautiful voice/color, musical intelligence and unaffected singing.
Interesting to Know he also conducted and composed, read literature at the University and had a doctoral degree on Hugo Wolf.

It is a great pity we now have only a few records to testify his enormous artistry. The Schubert  and Schumann cycles are an absolute must, as are his participations with Celibidache (Mozart Great Mass) and with Scherchen (Beethoven 9th, Mozart Requiem and particularly in one of the most moving St. Mathews Passion on record).  And those who want to get an idea of the versatility and unique talent of Petre Muntenau can also look for the Symposium 1332 recital - grab it while you can !

       

(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/7874_coverpic.jpg)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: zamyrabyrd on July 07, 2010, 09:02:18 AM
Petre Munteanu is a light tenor who is perhaps most well known for recordings he made with Herman Scherchen. I had heard that his lieder records were good - but up to now they had been a bit to expensive to take a punt. But a few weeks ago I noticed that you can download Dichterliebe, Schwanengesang and Schoene Muellerin very cheaply from amazon - so I took a chance.

What a glorious voice, naturally charismatic without a hint of artfulness .- His Mullerin especially is completely charming. He sings it straight. It's as if he's just talking to you, in music - the music entering the language. Not drama, no opera - just heart wrenching authentic music making. The polar opposite of Julius Patzak's histrionics.


Prompted by this post, I thought I'd like to discover another tenor. After listening to quite a few youtube recordings, I don't hear a lot of legato either in German and Italian. The lack makes the delivery quite wooden for me. It's as though Munteanu stops the breath ever so slightly at the end of each syllable to ensure that no real connection to the next note happens even in the same word over a consonant. That bothers me much.

Fischer-Dieskau emphasized the importance of legato and "follow-through" in the series of masterclasses in German Lied he made in 1992. 

ZB
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: ccar on July 07, 2010, 11:55:00 AM
Prompted by this post, I thought I'd like to discover another tenor. After listening to quite a few youtube recordings, I don't hear a lot of legato either in German and Italian. The lack makes the delivery quite wooden for me. It's as though Munteanu stops the breath ever so slightly at the end of each syllable to ensure that no real connection to the next note happens even in the same word over a consonant. That bothers me much.

Fischer-Dieskau emphasized the importance of legato and "follow-through" in the series of masterclasses in German Lied he made in 1992. 

ZB

Why may we prefer some musicians/interpreters to others? 

Many of the great artists attracted generations. But even in the big league interpreters, there are always those we are not fond of, that didn’t connect with our individual sensibility. We may try to use many reasons to explain this but not wanting to be either too technical or psychoanalytical, in the end it is always a very personal choice. Fortunately, we are all different, and we have many talented artists to choose from.   

In a different post I also confessed my personal difficulty in being “touched” by the singing of the great Fischer-Dieskau (particularly in the latter half of his career). I will not repeat previous comments but for me the more “natural” and “spontaneous” singing of Munteanu is a very contrasting example to what I personally dislike in many more technically “overworked-overemphatic” singers, like DFD or, to give some other completely different superstar examples, Cecilia Bartoli or Juan Diego Flórez.

I am never able to comment on the technique details of the singing. All my comments relate to personal appreciation and feeling.  And I also respect your personal sensibility. But on your  more technical comments, particularly regarding Munteanu’s legato, I tried to look for other perspectives on the subject. Robert Levine (author of a Known Maria Callas'  biography) did look at one of the Munteanu’s recitals. My feeling is very much in tune with his own “technical” characterization of this wonderful underrated artist. 
         
“ Forget vocal fireworks, long-held high notes, tenorial over-emoting, and blazes of sound: listening to Romanian tenor Petre Munteanu is an entirely different experience. ... “      http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=149913
 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=149913)

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/97/971637.jpg)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: zamyrabyrd on July 09, 2010, 07:44:14 AM
Hi Ccar,

Singers like any other insturmental performers need top technique. Otherwise they can't pretend they are expressing the music and not themselves. The ability to sing legato is an indispensible."Feeling" is not enough.

This Don Pasquale is simply awful, (made worse by the chorus).
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9Wf0INVtN4&feature=related

With all due respect, Petre Munteanu had nice high notes, that is, the raw material of a good tenor but not the sustaining power of an accomplished artist.  It's no surprise that he was not competing with the best during his singing career and somewhat forgotten afterwards.

ZB
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Mandryka on July 09, 2010, 08:09:04 AM

Singers like any other insturmental performers need top technique. Otherwise they can't pretend they are expressing the music and not themselves. The ability to sing legato is an indispensible."Feeling" is not enough.


ZB


The criticism seems pretty academic and dry -- if the feeling is strong, if he makes it sound important, then why should anyone bother about anything else?




Prompted by this post, I thought I'd like to discover another tenor. After listening to quite a few youtube recordings, I don't hear a lot of legato either in German and Italian. The lack makes the delivery quite wooden for me. It's as though Munteanu stops the breath ever so slightly at the end of each syllable to ensure that no real connection to the next note happens even in the same word over a consonant. That bothers me much.

Fischer-Dieskau emphasized the importance of legato and "follow-through" in the series of masterclasses in German Lied he made in 1992. 

ZB

What were you listening to on youtube? In the Milller Boy, he's anything but wooden.



Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: zamyrabyrd on July 09, 2010, 08:20:39 AM
What were you listening to on youtube? In the Milller Boy, he's anything but wooden.

I just listened to a handful of "Am leuchtenden Sommermorgen" (Dichterliebe, including Munteanu, Schiotz/Moore, Panzera, Huesch and Fischer-Dieskau. FD is fluid -- you're less aware of consonants and your more aware of phrase. With Munteanu you are are certainly aware where a word begins end. But I don't think that's a weakness. Do you?

Compare this Dichterliebe (Munteanu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ND3WnUBSDU&feature=related

with this (Souzay):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH8JiaN9w6g&feature=related

In the latter you can actually hear whole words and not syllables. And in the words of my voice teacher (back then), M.R., what the former is doing impacts the voice in the way constantly switching a light on and off does. This practice highly impedes phrase making even to the extent of a perceptible uneven vibrato.

ZB

Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: ccar on July 09, 2010, 01:19:29 PM
Hi Ccar,

Singers like any other insturmental performers need top technique. Otherwise they can't pretend they are expressing the music and not themselves. The ability to sing legato is an indispensible."Feeling" is not enough.

With all due respect, Petre Munteanu had nice high notes, that is, the raw material of a good tenor but not the sustaining power of an accomplished artist.  It's no surprise that he was not competing with the best during his singing career and somewhat forgotten afterwards.

ZB

Thanks ZB you for your sincere and sharp comments.

Some singers I Know and some of my musical friends, particularly those who very much like opera and sometimes are less fond of other vocal or instrumental music, have what I usually call a more “physical” relation with the “voice”. Mostly they look for the intonation, the range, the tessitura, the steadiness of the lower or top notes, the voice projection, the vibrato, the legato, the articulation, .... 

On the contrary, I always tend to look at singers more as musical “actors” than as musical instruments – I am much more sensible to the humane character and intensity the singer can convey, to the color or timbre than to power, to the meaning and poetry than to emphasis and detail, to a “natural” or intuitive musical phrasing than to a wide range or perfect intonation.

I understand that for you and most of my “voice lover” friends Munteanu is only a light tenor, with limited power and range and unsteady emission or articulation. Compared to Fisher-Dieskau, or even Souzay, his “direct” unaffected style may seem unexpressive, monotonous and uninvolved. But perhaps there may be something in this more “natural” approach to singing that is touching the less technical emotions. 

All this was already expressed by others in this forum. And looking for other comments on Petre Munteanu I also found David Gable’s provocative, but to me very lucid, appreciation on a 2007 rmcr thread (“Schubert, Schumann, and Petre Munteanu”). I hope he won’t mind a small quoting excerpt: 

Easier to write about his career ... than to describe his virtues as a musician. Suffice it to say that Munteanu was a        far more interesting singer, even, than, say, Christa Ludwig or Hermann Prey, whom I nevertheless admire, discovering more in these songs than they ever dreamed of. And he did so without ever resorting to the "knowing" italicizing and editorializing of a Fischer-Dieskau or especially a Schwarzkopf, entirely avoiding his fussy diction and her cloying preciousness.

Munteanu was a singer not unlike Victoria de los Angeles: completely unaffected. Both sang with an apparent simplicity and modesty, with a directness and seeming naturalness, but their simplicity, directness, and naturalness were the simplicity, directness, and naturalness of great musical intelligences, and their "artless" performances were actually the product of the most consummate artistry.

David Gable


PS the You tube post of Munteanu Dichterliebe has a completely distorted sound - can't give you a fair idea of his "voice" when compared with the Preiser CD; but I clearly understand this will not radically change your view, or "feeling"  ;D.       
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Tsaraslondon on July 10, 2010, 12:24:33 AM
On the Munteanu issue, I side more with ZB. The voice itself is attractive, but the lack of a real legato line bothers me quite a lot. I see Gable compares him to Victoria De Los Angeles, whose art did always seem simple and unaffected, but she also sang with a perfect legato line.

Fritz Wunderlich had a similar unaffected delivery and a beautiful voice, but just listen to him here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs6xTeCIxdU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs6xTeCIxdU). I think that demonstrates what ZB is talking about. 

Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: zamyrabyrd on July 11, 2010, 10:10:18 PM

Fritz Wunderlich had a similar unaffected delivery and a beautiful voice, but just listen to him here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs6xTeCIxdU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs6xTeCIxdU).

The above Dichterliebe is somewhat operatic but nice.

I can listen to Wunderlich all day though.  Here are some Schubert songs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyCVx1IpE6w&feature=related

His "unaffectedness" is high art, IMO, the result of hard work and study.

ZB
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Tsaraslondon on July 12, 2010, 01:23:39 AM

I can listen to Wunderlich all day though. 

His "unaffectedness" is high art, IMO, the result of hard work and study.

ZB

Not to mention the sheer beauty of his voice. I too could listen to him all day.

Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: kishnevi on July 12, 2010, 04:03:26 PM
Not to mention the sheer beauty of his voice. I too could listen to him all day.

Just finished to his recording of Das Lied von der Erde.  He actually does sound better than most, if not all, of the other tenors I've heard in this work, making the singing effortless instead of stentorian in the way some other do it. 

My only other recording of him is the Alcina he did as a radio broadcast with Joan Sutherland,  having learned the role on only a few days notice (the tenor originally signed for the lead somehow misunderstood and learned the wrong role).  It was released about a year and a half ago by DG as a commercial recording; if you search Youtube, you can find at least one upload of an aria from that performance.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Mandryka on August 13, 2010, 09:22:53 AM
I ljust istened to a handful of recordings of Der Doppelgaenger - Munteanu, Schreier, Kipnis, Lehmann, Panzéra, Rehkemper. All good.

I was looking for someone who told the emotional story, the emotional development - calmness, anxiety, curiosity, horror. And finally - well it's hard to say -- a mixture of pity and confusion perhaps, with a bit of terror thrown in.

The two I wouldn't be without now are Schreier and Kipnis. Both were very "internal" - you feel as though you're there with them, revisiting the place associated  with such complex emotions and memories and regrets, acquiring that unbearable self awareness. Schreier is particularly impressive in the opening (very hushed and intense in "Still ist die Nacht", and very restrained and moving in "So manche Nacht, in alter Zeit" ) Kipnis was quite simply terrifying for much of the second and third stanzas, particularly impressive at the end. They were rather similar in some ways, even though obviously Kipnis has a heavier, more colossal voice. Similar interpretively maybe.

And by the way, Schreier had the most stunning acompaniment (Schiff.)

Lehmann was very good, but I felt she was telling the story rather than living the events (nonsense probably - but that's how I heard it.) The way she sings "Still ist die Nacht, es ruhen die Gassen" - effective, but to my ears very much like a narrator telling a scary story. And in the central passages, when she sees herself - maybe this is sexist but somehow it's all rather histrionic I think.

Panzéra is meltingly pitiful at the end . And he is remarkably controlled at the moment of horror - the impact is through colour rather than volume. But it's in French - and you lose a lot. And I'm so enthusiastic about the orchestral version anyway.

Munteanu probably had the most beautiful voice of all. He's restrained and effectively trance like in the opening stanza. A bit more dramatic nuance may be approriate in a song like this.

Rehkemper was, I thought, a bit over characterised. A bit hammy.

Here's the poem in English in case you need reminding:

The night is quiet, the streets are calm,
In this house my beloved once lived:
She has long since left the town,
But the house still stands, here in the same place.

A man stands there also and looks to the sky,
And wrings his hands overwhelmed by pain:
Upon seeing his face, I am terrified--
The moon shows me my own form!

O you Doppelgänger! you pale comrade!
Why do you ape the pain of my love
Which tormented me upon this spot
So many a night, so long ago?
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mjwal on August 14, 2010, 06:23:14 AM
There aren't too many historical recordings of this, are there, to judge by Schubert Lieder On Record - Panzéra's "Le Sosie", of course, a bit odd in French with the orchestra - I listened to Hotter/Raucheisen (1950 - Acanta LP), rather impressive though more morose and bitter (he's good at that) than terrified. Schlusnus almost breezes though it, tonelessly but also rather flatly at the beginning, then waiting for the climaxes to show off his lovely high notes - a disappointment. So Kipnis, yes, very powerful - I don't know Rehkemper or Munteanu. Is the Schreier/Schiff recording the Wigmore Hall recording? If so, I must get that. Do you know Prégardien/Staier? He almost talks or shouts at times, but I find he covers quite a lot of ground expressively; it's a very uncomfortable performance, which might be just about right for this poem, though as singing it is what the Germans call "grenzwertig", borderline. I would very much like to hear Fassbaender's version, suppose I have to cough up €15 or so to get it as DG seems unwilling to reissue her lieder recordings for them in a cheap box.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: ccar on August 15, 2010, 03:05:37 AM
I was looking for someone who told the emotional story, the emotional development - calmness, anxiety, curiosity, horror. And finally - well it's hard to say -- a mixture of pity and confusion perhaps, with a bit of terror thrown in.

The two I wouldn't be without now are Schreier and Kipnis. Both were very "internal" - you feel as though you're there with them, revisiting the place associated  with such complex emotions and memories and regrets, acquiring that unbearable self awareness.

Mandryka, thank you for bringing up to the Forum this wonderful lied and your listening comments.

I agree with most of your impressions. And I share your need of looking for the more “internal” readings, particularly in a song like this one. In fact, it seems many great singers recorded Der Doppelganger, even without Schwanengesang, perhaps as a challenge to reveal their vocal and dramatic capabilities. And many did it wonderfully. But I feel only a few have that “internal” approach, trying to reveal its more intimate poetic character – for me, a dreamy and very introspective sorrow.

Listening to the recordings, I followed carefully the words and the music and tried to look at my own way of feeling the poem and the song:         
 
Schubert’s Sehr langsam indication and those repeated hypnotic four chords at the beginning set the ambiance for the all song. I believe the first stanza should not only be given slowly but also with a soft and restrained expression. This is essential to create the dream-like character of the poem and to prepare for the contrast with the coming Doppelganger vision. This dramatic effect is anticipated by the changing character of the music (after auf demselben Platz) and by the dynamic indications – a diminuendo followed by a gradual crescendo before the vision and the first climax, marked fff  (Hände vor Schmerzensgewalt).
 
The dream ends and the hidden memory is revealed in dramatic but introspective lines. And this is beautifully told by the music. Schubert’s genius signals the emotional change with a decrescendo and an isolated but expressive p chord (after Schmerzensgewalt). This chord anticipates the shudder (Mir graust es) and in crescendo, we see the face of the spectrum, the moonlight (suggested by beautiful soft chords) and the second dramatic climax - the recognition of the subconscious self (underlined by ff-fff). 

In the last stanza we feel the suffering for the lost love. But the renewed memory is questioned in a curious dialog between the conscious and the subconscious. Schubert’s music is again very expressive in this last dramatic climax (Was äffst du nach mein Liebesleid, Das mich geuält auf dieser Stelle). But in the end the song reveals a more peaceful acceptance, suggested by the p-pp-ppp indications, the musical sweetness of the last words (in alter Zeit?) and the vanishing single-chord postlude.


Like you Mandryka, I also appreciate Kipnis, Schreier and Lehmann. And I agree that in spite of the french and orchestral version Panzera is also very interesting. I also share the pleasure of listening to Munteanu – his beautiful timbre and the way he sings, expressively but without “effects”, puts him in a very unique and scarce league.

But others I need to mention are Gerard Souzay and Gerhard Husch.

Husch recorded Der Doppelganger twice. In his earlier version (1939) Husch gives what for me is one of the most wonderful interpretations of this lied, with an amazing freshness and intelligence. And latter (1952) he is still very good. Obviously his voice is no longer the same but the way he uses it gives the vision of a more mature and darker reading. A fascinating example of how a great artist is able to use his own limitations to achieve a different interpretative character.         

Souzay also recorded Der Doppelganger several times. The first (1950) is a strong characterization, when his voice had its special colour and technical brilliancy in full. But in spite of that, or perhaps because, I also like his second (1962) reading, where he may be less secure but is more vocally restrained and thoughtful. For me this is also one the most impressive and profound readings of this dramatic, but very intimate song. I can't reccomend the third recording (1972) because the limits of his instrument were already too difficult to surpass.     

(http://cdn.tower.jp/zz/m/7172/717281890175.jpg)  (http://www.goclassic.co.kr/club/board/members_discs/1125490461negative2101.jpg)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Mandryka on August 15, 2010, 11:45:43 AM
Is the Schreier/Schiff recording the Wigmore Hall recording? If so, I must get that.

No the studio one. I haven't heard the live one.

Do you know Prégardien/Staier? He almost talks or shouts at times, but I find he covers quite a lot of ground expressively; it's a very uncomfortable performance, which might be just about right for this poem, though as singing it is what the Germans call "grenzwertig", borderline.

No -- but I'm curious

I would very much like to hear Fassbaender's version, suppose I have to cough up €15 or so to get it as DG seems unwilling to reissue her lieder recordings for them in a cheap box.

I've ordered that one myself. I like her -- I have been enjoying her EMI Wolf a lot recently.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Mandryka on August 15, 2010, 11:52:57 AM
Schubert’s Sehr langsam indication . . .  the vanishing single-chord postlude.

That's very stimulating. Thanks. I'm not a German scholar and I have never really studied music. So that sort of post is very interesting to me. Much appreciated.

Husch recorded Der Doppelganger twice. In his earlier version (1939) Husch gives what for me is one of the most wonderful interpretations of this lied,

I would like to hear that. Is that earlier version the one in the CD pictured in your post?

I have mixed feelings about Husch. In Winterreise I generally chose more inward readings -- Hotter or even Schreier/Richter. But in Dichterliebe I think he's marvelous.

Anyway, I'll get his Schwanengesang songs, for sure.


Souzay also recorded Der Doppelganger twice. . . .

Souzay is a singer I need to discover more, for sure. Where are these recordings -- ie which CD contains the early, which the late?

By the way, I will go through all Schwanengesang -- I want to make a sort of "best of" CD. Next up is Staendchen! So far in my listening Schlusnus is particularly impressive in that.

Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: ccar on August 15, 2010, 04:59:09 PM
That's very stimulating. Thanks. I'm not a German scholar and I have never really studied music. So that sort of post is very interesting to me. Much appreciated.

Thanks Mandryka. I am also not a scholar, nor a musicien. And I was not shure if my last post did make any sense. But I believe that when we express our preferences for a musical interpretation it can be more informative, and fair, to musicians, to others and to ourselves, if we also give some reflection on our own way of listening to the piece.       

Trying to listen "carefully" may gives us more and better enjoyment. But is also a form of respect. To the music and to the musicians we sometime comment or criticize. Because any singer, particularly the great ones, they all have years of continuous study and preparation - developing their voice, their technique and working thoroughly on their repertoire. More than anyone, they do know every detail of the words, the musical nuances and interpretative possibilities.

But Music is not made only for musicians, composers or professional critics. Even without the “hard musical Knowledge”, we may still listen carefully, have pleasure, discover many wonderful details and have the honesty to like or dislike. And sometimes the more musically learned listeners are not the more musically sensitive.   

This is to say I believe we all can listen and enjoy in many different ways. But when the music is deeply connected with a poem, most of us will gain if we take some time to read the poem before we listen. This is our first “interpretation” of the words. If we then look at the actual song we see how the music can give us another reading – helped by the composer.  And when we try to compare various singers and interpretations, we discover how the “same” poem and music can create so many different “understandings”.  Fortunately, there is never the “only” way or the “right” way.


I would like to hear that. Is that earlier version the one in the CD pictured in your post?

Souzay is a singer I need to discover more, for sure. Where are these recordings -- ie which CD contains the early, which the late?
Here are some links for the Husch and Souzay's Der Doppelganger.

http://www.amazon.com/Lebendige-Vergangenheit-Franz-Vienna-Schubert/dp/B0000023M3/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1281920671&sr=1-3
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Husch-Berger-Japan-Gerhard/dp/B000B63EQA/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1281920787&sr=1-7
http://www.amazon.co.uk/G%C3%A9rard-Souzay-Recital-Gerard/dp/B00005RKQU/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1281920843&sr=1-10
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Schubert-sch%C3%B6ne-M%C3%BCllerin-Winterreise-Schwanengesang/dp/B00002475X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1281920843&sr=1-1

By the way, I will go through all Schwanengesang -- I want to make a sort of "best of" CD. Next up is Staendchen! So far in my listening Schlusnus is particularly impressive in that.
I look forward to your impressions on Staendchen. Any Schubert lied is a small world. And I also need to look at each song by itself to compare its possible readings or interpretations. This can be very stimulating but is hard enough. For me it is very difficult to grasp an entire "cycle". And it is even more difficult to get the "best of". I have my preferences, but I always need the variety, if possible among "the best".   

Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: zamyrabyrd on August 15, 2010, 09:37:04 PM
Here's Marian Anderson in Der Döppelganger--a fine voice with much feeling (although maybe a little flat at times).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6oxJ23J7Jc

ZB
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Guido on August 16, 2010, 01:30:33 AM
We never got Harry's update! It's now a year and a day overdue.

I'm sorely tempted by that complete lieder edition but sadly don't have the money at the moment.

At the moment all I have is that incredible Schwarzkopf/Fischer CD and also an equally wonderful CD by Fleming/Eschenbach. I approached it with trepidation as although I am definitely a Fleming fan, I was not greatly enamoured with her other recital CD "Night Songs" (which contains songs by Strauss, Marx, Debussy, Fauré and Rachmaninov) - but the Schubert CD is just wonderful - as always with Fleming her German singing is so sensitive and precise; the vibrato reduced, but the refulgent "Fleming sound" still warming every phrase, and the voice in peak condition. One sometimes forgets that after her first music degree at Eastman, she went to Germany with the intention of studying on an opera course, but didn't get on and so had to "settle" for the lieder course - at this time she also had masterclasses with Schwarzkopf. Eschenbach is a surprisingly excellent accompanist - these two seem to understand each other perfectly - an ideal partnership. Some old favourites on offer here as well as some real rarities (Fleming is famous for this of course - most of her CDs have something very obscure and usually delectable). One hopes (probably in vain) that she will do another disc at some point.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41dkzGCvY4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Tsaraslondon on August 16, 2010, 07:36:46 AM
Here's Marian Anderson in Der Döppelganger--a fine voice with much feeling (although maybe a little flat at times).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6oxJ23J7Jc

ZB

A fine voice certainly, and she does sing with feeling, but without bringing anything really specific to the song.

It is precisely this kind of song where I feel Fischer-Dieskau triumphs. How marvellously he grasps the poet's blank despair and mounting horror.  Some will no doubt find it a bit over the top, but I think it matches perfectly this piece of grand guignol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKVnL9JvuO8&p=53FB98B70F61C9DB&playnext=1&index=7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKVnL9JvuO8&p=53FB98B70F61C9DB&playnext=1&index=7)


Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Guido on August 16, 2010, 08:09:23 AM
I think this forum is particularly Fischer-Dieskau-Sceptic - so much so that excuses are always made when someone professes to liking him!! I agree - wonderful stuff (though the wobble on the climax is surely not healthy singing. Though, it seems to be hard to avoid in Bass/bass-baritone singing. Why is this?)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Tsaraslondon on August 16, 2010, 08:28:30 AM
I think this forum is particularly Fischer-Dieskau-Sceptic - so much so that excuses are always made when someone professes to liking him!! I agree - wonderful stuff (though the wobble on the climax is surely not healthy singing. Though, it seems to be hard to avoid in Bass/bass-baritone singing. Why is this?)

I think, though I don't know, that this is quite late Fischer-Deiskau, which might explain the wobble (or wide vibrato). His voice was much firmer when he was young.

Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Tsaraslondon on August 16, 2010, 08:56:15 AM
Listening now to the Fleming/Eschenbach disc detailed above by Guido.

First impressions are good. One capitulates to the sheer beauty of the voice, certainly, but (why is there always a but?) I sometimes feel the emotion is externally applied, particularly in a song like Die junge Nonne. Both Schwarzkopf and Janet Baker seem to feel the song from within. So too does De Los Angeles, whose delivery is more simple and direct, and who may appeal to those who find the singing of such as Baker and Schwarzkopf too interventionist. I felt much the same about Fleming's performance of Gretchen am Spinnrade. It's actually very similar in tempo and feel to Schwarzkopf's version, but Schwarzkopf is again more inside the song, with an almost horrified gasp at the remembrance of Faust's kiss.

Mostly I prefer Fleming in the lighter songs, one  of the most lovely performances being Auf dem Wasser zu singen, sung with a light, slivery tone, which matches perfectly Eschenbach's suitably gleaming accompaniment. Oddly enough, though, it is often Schwarzkopf and Fischer, who are more classical in their approach, achieving their effects within a far stricter time frame, where Fleming and Eschenbach are more Romatically free with the tempo. Sometimes this freedom of tempo can impede the natural ebb and flow of the song, as I feel it does in Nacht und Traume, where I began to be more aware of the singer's breath control than anything else. Same problem with Du bist di Ruh. Baker, with Geoffrey Parsons is superb here, the climaxes much more naturally paced and felt.

I know I'm carping, because, for the most part, I did enjoy this recital, but I'm not sure, that I would call it a classic Schubert recital, lovely though the singing is and accomplished though the accompaniments are. Sometimes it feels as if Fleming is just trying too hard, as if she is looking over her shoulder to see if Dame Elisabeth approves.

Guido, I would urge you to acquire some of Baker's Schubert. She rarely puts a foot wrong and her response to the poetry is always somehow more natural.


Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: ccar on August 16, 2010, 10:04:25 AM
It is precisely this kind of song where I feel Fischer-Dieskau triumphs. How marvellously he grasps the poet's blank despair and mounting horror.  Some will no doubt find it a bit over the top, but I think it matches perfectly this piece of grand guignol.

I already confessed my difficulty in connecting with DFD’s singing. I am always impressed, but never marveled nor seduced. And I don’t want to fuel the DFD love-hate debate, but when comparing various singers to post on this thread, some days ago, I went through his recordings of Der Doppelganger – MYTO 1948; EMI 1951; ORFEO 1956; EMI 1962; DG 1972 (I didn’t listen to his last (?) recording with Brendel).
 
Some listeners may look at Der Doppelganger as a ghostly horror nightmare or as a cry of suffering madness. If the singer also feels that way he may use his interpretative skills and the many dynamic indications of the song to produce a dramatic and frightening moment.  Perhaps this is a simplistic description, but in this Kind of recreation of the poem/song Fischer-Dieskau is quite effective. He does begin the song very softly but after the vision appearance we are continuously overwhelmed by his full vocal power, like an uncontrolled and terrifying cry of madness. And in the various DFD versions I listened I perceived this same interpretative picture. 

I already expressed I personally tend to look at Der Doppelganger in a much more dreamy and introspective way. Not without drama – there is surprise, confusion, fear and suffering. But there is also a denial, a personal refusal and eventually, with the revealing dream, an acceptance dialog with our own self. And for me this is also how I read Schubert’s music. He underlines the moments of tension and suffering, but from the beginning he chooses to create an hypnotic ambiance, uses many minor and descending chords and ends the song beautifully, not in terror or madness, but in an almost sweet remembrance of the lost love - evoked by the singing line in in alter Zeit  and by the delightful postlude.
     
It is in this sense I don’t prefer Fischer-Dieskau. He is a great singer but in my personal script of Der Doppelganger he is not the best actor for the part.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Guido on August 16, 2010, 12:54:44 PM
Listening now to the Fleming/Eschenbach disc detailed above by Guido.

First impressions are good. One capitulates to the sheer beauty of the voice, certainly, but (why is there always a but?) I sometimes feel the emotion is externally applied, particularly in a song like Die junge Nonne. Both Schwarzkopf and Janet Baker seem to feel the song from within. So too does De Los Angeles, whose delivery is more simple and direct, and who may appeal to those who find the singing of such as Baker and Schwarzkopf too interventionist. I felt much the same about Fleming's performance of Gretchen am Spinnrade. It's actually very similar in tempo and feel to Schwarzkopf's version, but Schwarzkopf is again more inside the song, with an almost horrified gasp at the remembrance of Faust's kiss.

Mostly I prefer Fleming in the lighter songs, one  of the most lovely performances being Auf dem Wasser zu singen, sung with a light, slivery tone, which matches perfectly Eschenbach's suitably gleaming accompaniment. Oddly enough, though, it is often Schwarzkopf and Fischer, who are more classical in their approach, achieving their effects within a far stricter time frame, where Fleming and Eschenbach are more Romatically free with the tempo. Sometimes this freedom of tempo can impede the natural ebb and flow of the song, as I feel it does in Nacht und Traume, where I began to be more aware of the singer's breath control than anything else. Same problem with Du bist di Ruh. Baker, with Geoffrey Parsons is superb here, the climaxes much more naturally paced and felt.

I know I'm carping, because, for the most part, I did enjoy this recital, but I'm not sure, that I would call it a classic Schubert recital, lovely though the singing is and accomplished though the accompaniments are. Sometimes it feels as if Fleming is just trying too hard, as if she is looking over her shoulder to see if Dame Elisabeth approves.

Guido, I would urge you to acquire some of Baker's Schubert. She rarely puts a foot wrong and her response to the poetry is always somehow more natural.

OK I will have a look - is there a particular CD by Baker you recommend?

I actually think that Fleming is refreshingly free and unrestrained (as in not beholden to the Doyenne) in what can sometimes seem like "sacred cow" repertoire. This is always a taste thing though, with singers probably more than any other type of musician, so I'm willing to accept your not quite adulatory review ( :)). We are probably willing to forgive our favourites more - I probably like Schwarzkopf as a singer about as much as you like Fleming (at least as far as I can judge from your posts) - I respect her enormously and I very much like or even love much of what she's done, but it doesn't always do it for me. There are times when I wish she would let go more and just enjoy the sound of her own voice, but she rarely (never?) seems to do this, which is why her Strauss can sometimes seem to me a little odd - it's clear that Strauss wants this at times and she sometimes seems to miss (or maybe just doesn''t acknowledge) that part of the meaning of the music is the sound - especially in Strauss. One forgives her of course because the singing is just so wonderful most of the time, but I sometimes feel frustrated by her lack of acknowledgement of the more soaringly erotic, and lets face it more vulgar, sentimental, and even sleazy aspects of Strauss' art.

Woops massive aside! sorry!

So what about men? Who is the Schwarzkopf equivalent in this repertoire (back to Schubert!)? I guess really it is Fischer-Dieskau. Both get accused of roughly the same thing - being mannered and overdoing the text, often unfairly. (Do we know what they thought of each other?) What about tenors in this rep?
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Guido on August 16, 2010, 02:04:42 PM
Here's a passage that I really like from Robin Holloway's review of the Hyperion complete lieder edition (the review is generally glowing):

Quote from: Robin Holloway
So through all this literary matter [he's talking about the sometimes irksome though always fascinating liner notes], occasioned by it and consuming it utterly, burns the compelling intensity and unlimited beauty of -I'm throwing caution to the winds!- the most original, fecund, inspired composer who ever existed. Original because so unbeholden: no composer before or since has had in his gift a larger admixture of absolutely new things that music can embody and express. Fecund because so frequent, with such protean variety (obviously not every one of the 600 will be equally new, beautiful, profound, but the proportion of quality is high, there is plenty to cherish on the lower slopes of Parnassus, almost nothing is wholly untouched by his powers). Inspired because he is the composer closest to music's intrinsic nature; he combines consummate purity of grammatical usage (even when such usages had scarcely been touched on, or touched off, before) fused with an unprecedented reliance on total expressiveness; objective and subjective are held in such equipoise that they lose their customary polarity.

As per usual he seems to capture it very well here.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on August 16, 2010, 08:54:54 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EHTVCMD3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I am off to work in a moment, so no long explanations. However, this is the one to get. It consists of a two LP recital with Gerald Moore together with a rather later LP. Wonderful performances and it embraces well known and rare songs.

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 16, 2010, 10:40:04 PM
So what about men? Who is the Schwarzkopf equivalent in this repertoire (back to Schubert!)? I guess really it is Fischer-Dieskau. Both get accused of roughly the same thing - being mannered and overdoing the text, often unfairly. (Do we know what they thought of each other?) What about tenors in this rep?

If you don't like DFD, there are a slew of good alternatives in this repertoire. With the Hyperion and Naxos 'sets' (and their use of multiple singers), there are a lot of interesting viewpoints to consider. If you look more at a few individual contributors, there are several good choices: Goerne (who is in the midst of his own mini-cycle), Wunderlich (who needs little introduction), Ian Bostridge, Quasthoff, Herman Prey, and Werner Gura to name a few.

I have Goerne and Wunderlich performing some Shcubert (and the Hyperion set, which I can recommend), and both are pretty fabulous. While I am going through the Hyperion set, I don't feel much need to acquire more, but if I did, it would probably be Gura for a tenor version of Wintereise.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on August 17, 2010, 11:50:17 AM
Here is someone I urge you to try,the baritone Christian Gerhaher. He is remarkable. The voice is flexible and beautiful. But it is his way with words that is so arresting. He sings with an inward authority and shines new light onto well known songs. An original and inspired singer.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dclassical&field-keywords=gerhaher+schubert&x=21&y=20

Earlier review:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=search2

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: kishnevi on August 17, 2010, 06:17:41 PM
If you don't like DFD, there are a slew of good alternatives in this repertoire. With the Hyperion and Naxos 'sets' (and their use of multiple singers), there are a lot of interesting viewpoints to consider. If you look more at a few individual contributors, there are several good choices: Goerne (who is in the midst of his own mini-cycle), Wunderlich (who needs little introduction), Ian Bostridge, Quasthoff, Herman Prey, and Werner Gura to name a few.

I have Goerne and Wunderlich performing some Shcubert (and the Hyperion set, which I can recommend), and both are pretty fabulous. While I am going through the Hyperion set, I don't feel much need to acquire more, but if I did, it would probably be Gura for a tenor version of Wintereise.

I'm underwhelmed by what I have of Bostridge's Schubert (a 2 CD issue he made with Andsnes)--seemed somewhat superficial to me.  But I agree with you about Goerne.

For a tenor Winteriese, I have the Padmore/Lewis recording on HM;  I'd suggest that if you want a contemporary performance.   If Pregardien recorded the cycle, he would probably also be a safe bet: I have him singing Schone Mullerin and Schwangesang.



Quote from: knight
Here is someone I urge you to try,the baritone Christian Gerhaher. He is remarkable. The voice is flexible and beautiful. But it is his way with words that is so arresting. He sings with an inward authority and shines new light onto well known songs.

I don't have his Schubert, but I do have his Mahler, and what you say applies just as much to those performances.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on August 17, 2010, 08:47:09 PM
Sorry the link did not work, here it is.


http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,555.msg394523/topicseen.html#msg394523

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Guido on August 17, 2010, 11:39:02 PM
Ordered the Baker two-fer, and three discs by Gerhaher - The Schubert/Brahms/Martin one, Schwanengesang and then the Schoenberg/Mahler one. All very cheap! I will report back.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on August 18, 2010, 08:19:14 AM
All the best with those. I keep linking this, but in case you missed it, here is a site with all the words to the songs and translations. The Baker discs have no copies of the texts.

http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/

Mike

Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Guido on August 18, 2010, 09:38:00 AM
All the best with those. I keep linking this, but in case you missed it, here is a site with all the words to the songs and translations. The Baker discs have no copies of the texts.

http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/

Mike

Cheers! I speak German, so hope that I can understand if the diction is clear enough, but it is always nice to have the text to get the overall picture of the poem.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mjwal on August 19, 2010, 04:41:30 AM
Kishnevi: >For a tenor Winterreise, I have the Padmore/Lewis recording on HM;  I'd suggest that if you want a contemporary performance.   If Prégardien recorded the cycle, he would probably also be a safe bet: I have him singing Schöne Müllerin and Schwanengesang.<
If? The Prégardien Winterreise came out in '97. And it is very good, perhaps the best tenor winter journey with forte piano on CD, though I have not yet heard the venerable Ernst Haefliger/Dähler (which I shall listen to when I return to Berlin in the autumn).
Reverting to the question of antipathy to FiDi and/or Schwarzkopf: I admired, nay swooned over FiDi in my youth, ditto Schwarzkopf. I still love the latter, despite her occasional mannerisms, but since I "discovered" Irmgard Seefried in Lieder I have come to appreciate the complimentary remark that Schwarzkopf herself made about her, remarking that Seefried had a natural gift of rightness of expression which other singers had to work very hard to achieve. And you can compare her versions of "Gretchen am Spinnrade" over the years, from 1956 (Archipel) via 1957 (live - Orfeo) and 1962 (BBC), all w/Werba. Perhaps her HMV recordings of the 40s are available on CD? (I have an EMI Références 2LP selection, but "Meine Ruh ist hin" is not among them). It would be exaggerating to say that in the Gretchen song Mme. Schw. is Madame de Merteuil and Seefried Sophie de Volanges, but you get the point, perhaps. You must get the Seefried, anyway, preferably the BBC, to hear the mini "Gretchen-Oper" - Schubert's settings of Goethe's Faust for soprano: D367, 118, 564 and 126 - the latter being a terrifying evocation of despair, and to my ears anticipating much later music - written by Schubert in his late teens! (Do you really want to hear Quasthoff doing the police in different voices in this? And has any other soprano done these as a group? Not Janowitz, at least on the 2-CD collection I possess of her DG Schubert recordings. ) - As to FiDi, I have an on/off relationship with his voice and interpretative approach. I cold never have sat through the ensemble of his Schubert recordings for DG, even if I could have afforded them. But Gesamtaufnahmen were never my bag...
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Verena on August 19, 2010, 04:49:09 AM
Quote
If? The Prégardien Winterreise came out in '97. And it is very good, perhaps the best tenor winter journey with forte piano on CD, though I have not yet heard the venerable Ernst Haefliger/Dähler (which I shall listen to when I return to Berlin in the autumn).

Seconded. The Prégardien Winterreise is very good, one of my favorites. Though, in my book, as far as Winterreisen are concerned, nothing comes close to the never-released-on-CD Souzay recording from 1959, one year before his Philips recording. But then, I adore Souzay.
If someone is interested in that recording, p-mail me.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: kishnevi on August 19, 2010, 06:34:18 AM
Seconded. The Prégardien Winterreise is very good, one of my favorites. Though, in my book, as far as Winterreisen are concerned, nothing comes close to the never-released-on-CD Souzay recording from 1959, one year before his Philips recording. But then, I adore Souzay.
If someone is interested in that recording, p-mail me.

Thanks to both of you.

I suspected Pregardien had recorded it, but was not at the time completely sure, and didn't want to be the sort of idiot who tells people to buy a recording that doesn't exist :)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: kishnevi on August 19, 2010, 06:40:46 AM
- As to FiDi, I have an on/off relationship with his voice and interpretative approach. I cold never have sat through the ensemble of his Schubert recordings for DG, even if I could have afforded them. But Gesamtaufnahmen were never my bag...

They've been reboxed at a lower price (you need to go online to download the texts) this year for FiDi's 85 birthday.  But you are right--I've listened to six of the 21 CDs so far, and have put off the remainder for the last week or so--it does get more than a little wearing after a while.  I'll probably be resuming the trek today, but at a more moderate pace, probably one  a day for the next couple of weeks.   
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Mandryka on August 23, 2010, 11:54:11 PM
I would very much like to hear Fassbaender's version . . .

I have it now. and I like it. In  Staedchen she's really quite  haunting. The piano part is very imaginative—it’s as if the piano is the  anxious heartbeat of the lover. I'd say of all the Staendchens I've heard, this has the best treatment of the piano.

And the singing seems interesting  – involved, and rather dramatic at the end, not too slow. I've got a playlist with a handful of Staendchens -- Hotter, Fassbaender, Schreier, Munteanu, Slezak, Huesch, Schlusnus. And Fassbaender has had a major impact even when surrounded by singers of that calibre.

I've also listened to Doppelganger and was equally impressed – if not more so. But Doppelganger’s an easier song to be impressive in!

Here's Marian Anderson in Der Döppelganger--a fine voice with much feeling (although maybe a little flat at times).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6oxJ23J7Jc

ZB

Thanks for pointig that out to me -- I was wondering if any other women did it besides Lehmann and Fassbaender.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: laredo on January 18, 2011, 05:36:15 AM
Which are your favourites Lieder of the great Franz?
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Verena on January 18, 2011, 09:26:48 AM
Great Topic

I think his three great cycles contain some of his most beautiful songs.
My absolute favorites among the Lieder that are not part of cycles: Frühlingsglaube, Nacht und Träume, Im Abendrot (D799)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: laredo on January 18, 2011, 09:55:09 AM
Never heard...thx!. What about Ganymed and An die Musik?
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Todd on January 18, 2011, 09:58:11 AM
The three great cycles of course, and who doesn't like Erlkoenig?  There are others, but I can't name them readily.  When I'm in the mood for some Schubert lieder, I just put a disc in and listen. 
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Verena on January 18, 2011, 01:09:19 PM
Never heard...thx!. What about Ganymed and An die Musik?

I don't particularly like the lyrics of "An die Musik", but the melody is lovely. Don't particularly enjoy Ganymed..
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mjwal on January 26, 2011, 08:04:44 AM
(One) favourite Schubert song in all-time favourite performance: "Nachtstück" sung by Karl Erb. The endless arching, yearning phrases as sung here have an effect on me similar to that evoked by Martinelli w/Ponselle (or live w/?) in Aida "'s "O Terra addio".
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Mandryka on August 26, 2011, 09:42:31 PM
Here's DFD with D 932 Der Kreuzzug

http://www.youtube.com/v/csCi9owQRYI

I like it -- suggestions for other good performances of this interesting song musch appreciated  :)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 26, 2011, 11:22:10 PM
Here's DFD and Holl and Moll with D 932 Der Kreuzzug

http://www.youtube.com/v/csCi9owQRYI

I like it -- suggestions for other good performances of this interesting song musch appreciated  :)
Well, I have the version with Gerald Finley on volume 15 of the Hyperion series. I think he is a bit more to my taste. DFD seems a bit more declamatory and Finley takes a more rounded (less angular) approach, which seems to suit the music.  I like the piano on both though. Unfortunately, I don't see a clip anywhere, though the Hyperion site tends to give longer clips to hear if you want to see what you think.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on January 08, 2012, 01:10:45 AM
Schubert is a box of treasures and although I know a lot of his songs, about 40 or 50 disks worth. Still on listening, one I have heard before suddenly catches my ear and then I get to know it properly. I can't bring to mind the Gewesen one, I will search it out.

I was listening to that Schwarzkopf disk last week on Spotify and enjoyed it a great deal, including the pianism.

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Mandryka on January 09, 2012, 05:37:23 AM
Das sie hier gewesen: is there a reason why this miraculous song is not more ofter recorded? Not that Anne Sofie Von Otter's miraculous rendition leaves one craving others. Just wonderful, how Schubert stress the words: "sie bliebe" - and how miss Otter expresses them!

(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m465/Phil1_05/SchubertLieder003.jpg)


It's a very good CD that one, full of interesting songs you don't hear too often. Thanks for pointing it ou.

Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Mandryka on January 09, 2012, 09:40:28 AM
By the way I forgot to mention that I'm swimming in recordings of Das sie hier gewesen: Erb, Grummer, Schumann, Husch, Ludwig, Gerhaher. And now Otter  ;)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: zamyrabyrd on January 14, 2012, 09:46:47 AM
What about Christoph Prégardien, tenor in Zügenglöcklein? I was listening to DFD in this and had to stop midway, it was so aggressive sounding, and so found this instead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DhIqe-Hf3Y&feature=related
The pianist is very good too, Michael Gees.
ZB
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: North Star on January 14, 2012, 02:58:08 PM
Thanks for pointing out the von Otter disc, toucan - she is a wonderful singer.

Prégardien is an excellent Schubert singer, too.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Marc on January 16, 2012, 11:50:28 AM
What about Christoph Prégardien, tenor in Zügenglöcklein? I was listening to DFD in this and had to stop midway, it was so aggressive sounding, and so found this instead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DhIqe-Hf3Y&feature=related
The pianist is very good too, Michael Gees.
ZB

Prégardien is probably my favorite male interpreter of Schubert. A beautiful tenor with a baritone colour, showing great understanding of the texts. His Winterreise with Andreas Staier on fortepiano is fabeltastisch. :)

(http://i41.tinypic.com/149t84y.jpg)

My fave lady in this oeuvre is Elly Ameling. It feels like she's born in these songs.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Mandryka on January 21, 2012, 12:15:58 AM
Drowning in the mires of Amazon...

The Husch is very good I think. I was quite surprised because normally I've been a bit negative about stand and deliver singers like Husch, but his  Das sie hier gewesen is disarmingly sincere.

For Zügenglöcklein I prefer FiDi/Richter in Salzburg to Pregardien/Gees.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: DieNacht on January 21, 2012, 12:32:13 AM
(http://www.classicrecords.co.uk/photos/ALP1066.jpg)

Am no specialist, have got the lied repertoire though, but bought this the other day (for less than 1 euro) and was very impressed. In general I prefer the early FD also.

Contains six Heine lieder - "Der Atlas", "Ihr Bild", "Das Fischermädchen", "Die Stadt", "Am Meer", "Der Doppelgänger" + Beethoven´s "An Die Ferne Geliebte".
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: knight66 on January 21, 2012, 12:36:31 AM
The Husch is very good I think. I was quite surprised because normally I've been a bit negative about stand and deliver singers like Husch, but his  Das sie hier gewesen is disarmingly sincere.

For Zügenglöcklein I prefer FiDi/Richter in Salzburg to Pregardien/Gees.

I think Fassbaender with Johnson is an interesting version, slow but well sustained.

Mike
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Mandryka on January 25, 2012, 11:22:43 AM
Vol 26 of the Hyperion Schubert Edition (An 1826 Schubertiad)  has three sentimental rarities which make me go weak at the knees whenever I hear them. One is the duet D877 no.1 "Nur wer die Sehnsucht kennt". The other is the well known D892, "Nachstelle". And the third -- IMO the most extraordinary of the lot, is D 829 "Abschied von der Erde ".

It's a wonderful CD.

Leb' wohl, du schöne Erde!
Kann dich erst jetzt versteh'n,
Wo Freude und wo Kummer
An uns vorüberweh'n.

Leb' wohl, du Meister Kummer!
Dank dir mit nassem Blick!
Mit mir nehm' ich die Freude,
Dich laß' ich hier zurück.

Sei nur ein milder Lehrer,
Führ' alle hin zu Gott,
Zeig' in den trübsten Nächten
Ein Streiflein Morgenrot!

Lasse sie die Liebe ahnen,
So danken sie dir noch,
Der früher und der später,
Sie danken weinend doch.

Dann glänzt das Leben heiter,
Mild lächelt jeder Schmerz,
Die Freude hält umfangen
Das ruh'ge, klare Herz.

Fair you well, you lovely world!
Only now do I understand you,
when joy and when sorrow
are passing away from us.

Fare you well, Master Sorrow!
I thank you with moist eyes!
With me I take joy -
you I leave here behind me.

Just be a gentle teacher,
lead everyone to God,
show them in the gloomy nights
a little streak of dawn!

Let them feel love,
and they will give thanks
sooner or later;
they will give tearful thanks.

Then life will be serene,
and every grief will smile placidly;
joy will enfold
the clear and tranquil heart.

And here's Bostridge and Ansnes with it, the Hyperion one isn't on youtube



http://www.youtube.com/v/l6MUOndmxlI
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on November 15, 2019, 04:18:16 PM
I find it somewhat depressing the last post I can find discussing lieder was made in 2012. Am I looking in the wrong place or has Lieder really become that unpopular today? While I’m here can someone reveal if larger scale vocal works, such as Mahler’s ‘Das Lied von der Erde’, are generally regarded here as lieder of subsumed under some other category?
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Cato on November 15, 2019, 04:40:04 PM
I find it somewhat depressing the last post I can find discussing lieder was made in 2012. Am I looking in the wrong place or has Lieder really become that unpopular today? While I’m here can someone reveal if larger scale vocal works, such as Mahler’s ‘Das Lied von der Erde’, are generally regarded here as lieder of subsumed under some other category?

Check under Composer Discussion/Opera and Vocal/Great Recordings: we have often written about the Lieder of Schubert, Mahler, Richard Strauss, etc..  The search engine here is rather eccentric.   8)

e.g.

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,683.msg1233389/topicseen.html#msg1233389 (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,683.msg1233389/topicseen.html#msg1233389)

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,555.msg1233608/topicseen.html#msg1233608 (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,555.msg1233608/topicseen.html#msg1233608)

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,555.msg1237613.html#msg1237613 (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,555.msg1237613.html#msg1237613)


https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14181.msg1209504.html#msg1209504 (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14181.msg1209504.html#msg1209504)


https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,683.msg1238928.html#msg1238928 (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,683.msg1238928.html#msg1238928)



Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on November 15, 2019, 07:36:42 PM
Check under Composer Discussion/Opera and Vocal/Great Recordings: we have often written about the Lieder of Schubert, Mahler, Richard Strauss, etc..  The search engine here is rather eccentric.   8)

e.g.

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,683.msg1233389/topicseen.html#msg1233389 (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,683.msg1233389/topicseen.html#msg1233389)

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,555.msg1233608/topicseen.html#msg1233608 (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,555.msg1233608/topicseen.html#msg1233608)

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,555.msg1237613.html#msg1237613 (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,555.msg1237613.html#msg1237613)


https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14181.msg1209504.html#msg1209504 (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14181.msg1209504.html#msg1209504)


https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,683.msg1238928.html#msg1238928 (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,683.msg1238928.html#msg1238928)

Thanks for the reading list. I’ll digest it at leisure. When I read the last was titled "Robert Schumann's Secret" by Jan Reichow I thought to myself ‘I knew he was gay’ but then I remembered Clara and realised I was thinking of Schubert.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Biffo on December 01, 2019, 09:16:37 AM
I find it somewhat depressing the last post I can find discussing lieder was made in 2012. Am I looking in the wrong place or has Lieder really become that unpopular today? While I’m here can someone reveal if larger scale vocal works, such as Mahler’s ‘Das Lied von der Erde’, are generally regarded here as lieder of subsumed under some other category?

I can't comment on 'such as' but, specifically, Mahler regarded Das Lied von der Erde  as a symphony (and so do I) and I am sure there is plenty of discussion of it in the Mahler thread.
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 01, 2019, 01:50:20 PM
I can't comment on 'such as' but, specifically, Mahler regarded Das Lied von der Erde  as a symphony (and so do I) and I am sure there is plenty of discussion of it in the Mahler thread.
A rose by any other name?
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Jo498 on December 01, 2019, 02:16:26 PM
By no name will Mahlers "Das Lied von der Erde" ever become a Schubert lied...
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 01, 2019, 02:47:30 PM
By no name will Mahlers "Das Lied von der Erde" ever become a Schubert lied...
What a peculiar idea ! All I can say is I experience ‘Das Lied von der Erde’ as a tone poem with words.
 I have to admit rationing my exposure to the Ferrier, Patzak, Walter recording to once a year. Even decades after being knocked senseless on first hearing I still burst into tears at the final song - er movement - er 'Der Abschied’. I know not everyone suffers the same vulnerability to an initial exposure. I haven’t ever recovered from first hearing the Schwarzkopf, Fischer-Dieskau, Moore recording of Wolf’s ‘Italian Songbook’ despite having enjoyed many other highly recommended performances. Same with an ancient LP of Paul Paray’s Brahms 4th Symphony which still gets a spin 50 or more years after.
Maybe that makes me a musical luddite of some kind? 
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 01, 2019, 03:35:57 PM
What a peculiar idea ! All I can say is I experience ‘Das Lied von der Erde’ as a tone poem with words.
 I have to admit rationing my exposure to the Ferrier, Patzak, Walter recording to once a year. Even decades after being knocked senseless on first hearing I still burst into tears at the final song - er movement - er 'Der Abschied’. I know not everyone suffers the same vulnerability to an initial exposure. I haven’t ever recovered from first hearing the Schwarzkopf, Fischer-Dieskau, Moore recording of Wolf’s ‘Italian Songbook’ despite having enjoyed many other highly recommended performances. Same with an ancient LP of Paul Paray’s Brahms 4th Symphony which still gets a spin 50 or more years after.
Maybe that makes me a musical luddite of some kind?

I think you misunderstand: he is merely referring to the now ongoing discussion of Mahler in a thread on Schubert. If you thought it was hard to find a discussion of it earlier, wait till someone else goes looking for this one!  ;)

8)
Title: Re: Schubert Lieder
Post by: Mandryka on March 10, 2020, 04:02:37 AM
(https://www.highresaudio.com/imgcache/6e58cf7bf921c0d2559dc6c513f9d777/reo3gb-franzschub-preview-m3_550x550.jpg)

Just started to explore this one. I know Alain Buet through some Dowland songs which I like. The booklet explains the project. Is it casuistry? I like the voice, both from the point of view of timbre and interpretation, which is restrained but not too restrained. The transcription seems inoffensive.  It's on streaming platforms so easy to check out.

Quote
The twentieth century has transmitted to us a demand for scrupulous respect with regard
to an original musical text, a respect that is extended to the very means employed for its restitution, such as the use of period instruments (or copies of them), the search for authentic
playing techniques, the adoption of a lower diapason, in short everything that will enable the
closest possible reproduction of the contemporary historic circumstances surrounding the
composition of a work. Despite this, though still of historical import, transcription was one of
the means by which Schubert’s music gradually spread throughout the whole of Europe from
the 1830s. Apart from the transcriptions for solo piano (that Liszt was not alone in making),
the lieder in particular were the object of the most diverse adaptations – either replacing
the voice by a cello, a violin, a horn, even a cornet, or indeed by substituting a guitar for the
accompanying piano. There is, however, one kind of transcription that was to play a special
role, one practised by some of the greatest names – from Berlioz to Britten via Brahms and
Reger: orchestration. It was thus an orchestrated version of Die junge Nonne (D 828) that,
overnight, in January 1835, had brought fame in France to the name of Schubert, moving the
lied from the confined space of the salon to that, public, of the concert hall.
Hence, far from constituting a violation of the work’s integrity, transcribing the Winterreise for voice and string quartet lies within this tradition; only an excessive purism, an
exaggerated idolisation of the score would lead one a priori to decry such an attempt. Beneath
its apparent inauthenticity such an approach proves on the contrary to be fully authentic.