GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: XB-70 Valkyrie on June 27, 2010, 02:09:51 PM

Title: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on June 27, 2010, 02:09:51 PM
I need some recommendations for recordings of this composer. Thanks.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Clever Hans on June 27, 2010, 03:57:31 PM
Ensemble Clément Janequin - Ensemble Organum > Missa Pange Lingua
Philippe Herreweghe - La Chapelle Royale > Stabat Mater, Motets
Ensemble Clément Janequin > Adieu, Mes Amours - Chansons
Tallis Scholars > Josquin Masses - Malheur me bat - Fortuna desperata
Tallis Scholars > L'Homme Arme Masses
The Hilliard Ensemble > Missa 'Hercules Dux Ferrariae'
The Clerks' Group > Missa Malheur Me Bat - Motets & Chansons
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 27, 2010, 05:19:10 PM
Just own 3-4 discs (1 a mixture of composers) of Josquin- the two that come to mind are the Tallis Scholars on Gimell, a good label for this type of music; ASV is also another label to review -  :D

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hHGwRPl9Rms/SNFFFYQJBMI/AAAAAAAAATY/ROJOPKNMo5E/s320/50.jpg)  (http://www.shareindexs.com/Image/200822719225720377801.jpg)
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Novi on June 27, 2010, 05:40:24 PM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Feb07/Desprez_a_sei_voce_E8906.jpg)

I'm not sure if this box set is still available, but I think individual discs still float around. Some beautiful stuff here.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: mjwal on June 28, 2010, 05:31:03 AM
Apart from the various recordings of Josquin's masses mentioned above - I would also recommend the Summerly Missa L'homme Armé sexti toni (Naxos) and two very affordable discs of chansons and motets: the Ensemble Clément Janequin's Adieu, mes amours ( hmf musique d'abord) already mentioned and the Hilliard Ensemble's Motets & chansons (Virgin Veritas), all three of which include the Déploration sur la mort de Johannes Ockeghem, than which there is no lovelier exequy for a friend and master's passing in all music.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Brewski on June 28, 2010, 06:33:39 AM
Just own 3-4 discs (1 a mixture of composers) of Josquin- the two that come to mind are the Tallis Scholars on Gimell, a good label for this type of music; ASV is also another label to review -  :D

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hHGwRPl9Rms/SNFFFYQJBMI/AAAAAAAAATY/ROJOPKNMo5E/s320/50.jpg)  (http://www.shareindexs.com/Image/200822719225720377801.jpg)

Another vote for these two, which are really gorgeous performances and recordings.  The Missa Pange lingua was (IIRC) the first early music recording ever to win Gramophone's "Recording of the Year."  It certainly deserves it.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: The new erato on June 28, 2010, 06:39:17 AM
Apart from the various recordings of Josquin's masses mentioned above - I would also recommend the Summerly Missa L'homme Armé sexti toni (Naxos) and two very affordable discs of chansons and motets: the Ensemble Clément Janequin's Adieu, mes amours ( hmf musique d'abord) already mentioned and the Hilliard Ensemble's Motets & chansons (Virgin Veritas), all three of which include the Déploration sur la mort de Johannes Ockeghem, than which there is no lovelier exequy for a friend and master's passing in all music.
Good advice which I heartily concur!

But this prompts me to mention Ockeghem's own deploration over Binchois'death, "Mort tu as navre", as equally fine. The Orlando Consort on Archiv do a marvellous rendering. Both works deserve to be heard as masterpieces in a glorious tradition.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: mjwal on June 28, 2010, 10:01:17 AM
Thanks for that tip, erato - I see that the Orlando's recording of that, various chansons and the Missa De Plus En Plus is coming out on Brilliant, which is good for my purse. I have never heard the piece you mention - up till now Ockeghem has meant chiefly the Requiem and the L'Homme armé mass to me.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Marc on June 28, 2010, 07:50:01 PM
Singing Josquin in a choir is a heavenly experience.
Because his music is.

Here's a fine mix of Desprez' Beata Virgina Mass and some Holy Virgin motets by Jean Mouton (1459-1522):

(http://i49.tinypic.com/2ahir92.jpg)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Josquin-Mouton-Vocal-Works-Desprez/dp/B0000007EO/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1277786878&sr=1-2

(The discs are nicely priced ;).)
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Que on June 28, 2010, 08:38:52 PM
Another vote for the recordings by A Sei Voci:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0822186089064.jpg)

Terrific, emotionally intense and non-smooth/lively performances. REVIEW (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2007/Feb07/Desprez_a_sei_voce_E8906.htm)
Must-have IMO.

Q
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Clever Hans on June 29, 2010, 08:24:06 AM
The Orlando Consort have a great recording of Josquin motets that is one to a part.

A Sei Voci tends tends to use male singers and add a children's choir for e.g. masses/non-motets, which can sometimes sound a little muddy or sloppy, depending on how particular one is. 

Likewise, in the past, the Tallis Scholars have been criticized for being too soprano-oriented, with two great a difference between male and female voices, and choosing surface beauty over scholarship. Their older Missa Pange Lingua recording has been specifically derided for this, and also some odd rhythm and tempo choices.

Both Ensemble Clément Janequin and A Sei Voci are much better in Missa Pange Lingua.

The Tallis' recent Malheur me bat recording, however, does not suffer from these problems, nor does really their recording of the L'Homme Arme Masses.

Some people will prefer A Sei Voci's more lively timbres for the Arme Masses, albeit with maybe less precision.


I forgot:

De Labyrintho, an italian group

Musica Symbolica (with Missa Gaudeamus)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/8011570337221.jpg)

and

Music for Ercole I d'Este (with Missa Hercules Dux Ferrariae)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/8011570338624.jpg)


Both very well reviewed. I only have the former, which is great, but their Hercules Dux Ferrariae was also rated by some as better than the Hilliard Ensemble's or Pomerium's.




 

Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: rubio on June 29, 2010, 07:15:15 PM
Does his oeuvre consists mostly of solo choir music? Or does any of these recommendations also include some instrumentation as well (which I clearly prefer)?
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: The new erato on June 29, 2010, 08:32:22 PM
Does his oeuvre consists mostly of solo choir music? Or does any of these recommendations also include some instrumentation as well (which I clearly prefer)?
No. Like most composers of the time, I don't think he wrote any, and anyway, instrumental music would have other uses and functions than the religious music that these highly regarded and paid composers were into music for.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: rubio on June 29, 2010, 09:53:29 PM
No. Like most composers of the time, I don't think he wrote any, and anyway, instrumental music would have other uses and functions than the religious music that these highly regarded and paid composers were into music for.

I think at least one of the CD's in the A Sei Voci set include some instrumentation. But maybe they have added it to Desprez original score.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: The new erato on June 29, 2010, 11:36:23 PM
I think at least one of the CD's in the A Sei Voci set include some instrumentation. But maybe they have added it to Desprez original score.
I was thinking solo instrumental here. Adding instrumentation for the Flemish/Burgundian school today is regarded as without historic foundation and therefore frowned upon. There are some wonderful "unhistoric" recordings though of Dufay by Clemencic (Messe Ave Regina Coelorum) and Davis Munrow (Missa Se la Face ay pale) which I recommend if this is preferred.

The exception of course being Spanish rennaisance where instrumentation was usual. Glossa has some wonderful Morales and Guerrero discs with Michael Noone at the helm including a varied instrumentation, and snatches of this kind of thing can be fopund by Savall on Alia Vox as well (I strongly recommend the wonderful Carlos V disc).
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on June 29, 2010, 11:43:51 PM
I was thinking solo instrumental here. Adding instrumentation for the Flemish/Burgundian school today is regarded as without historic foundation and therefore frowned upon. There are some wonderful "unhistoric" recordings though of Dufay by Clemencic (Messe Ave Regina Coelorum) and Davis Munrow (Missa Se la Face ay pale) which I recommend if this is preferred.

I have a disc of Dufay isorhythmic motets (Huelgas Ensemble) which adds sackbuts and a couple of other instruments as accompaniment. Discreet but effective. I wish more ensembles would do likewise. Maybe my modern ears have just been corrupted by instrumental sound, but listening to nothing but voices for a whole disc can get pretty tiring.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: mjwal on June 30, 2010, 04:18:18 AM
I have the very disc to delight rubio's and Velimir's hearts -
 Josquin Desprez: Chansons, Frottole & Instrumental Pieces
played by The Nonesuch Consort directed by Joshua Rifkin (among the musicians is Richard Taruskin: bass & bass viol...). There are instruments playing here most of the time, with or without voices. Very charming and lively - a couple of pieces are total earworms. Now all you have to do is convince Nonesuch to bring this back to the public ear via a newly remastered CD version.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on June 30, 2010, 10:13:11 AM
My favored recordings are the Missa Pangue Lingua by the Ensemble Clement Janequin (with the Ensemble Organum singing the proper), which personally i consider to be the single greatest mass of the entire Renaissance, and the recording of the late motets by the Orlando Consort. As an addendum, you can also seek out the Huelgas Ensemble recording of the Qui habitat, a motet in 24 parts. Those are my desert island picks, for what its worth.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on July 03, 2010, 10:24:43 PM
My favored recordings are the Missa Pangue Lingua by the Ensemble Clement Janequin (with the Ensemble Organum singing the proper), which personally i consider to be the single greatest mass of the entire Renaissance, and the recording of the late motets by the Orlando Consort. As an addendum, you can also seek out the Huelgas Ensemble recording of the Qui habitat, a motet in 24 parts. Those are my desert island picks, for what its worth.

Thanks to all for the recommendations. For now I just bought this Missa Pangue Lingua at Rasputin's today. I've always liked Ensemble Organum.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 24, 2013, 05:46:59 AM
I have the very disc to delight rubio's and Velimir's hearts -
 Josquin Desprez: Chansons, Frottole & Instrumental Pieces
played by The Nonesuch Consort directed by Joshua Rifkin (among the musicians is Richard Taruskin: bass & bass viol...). There are instruments playing here most of the time, with or without voices. Very charming and lively - a couple of pieces are total earworms. Now all you have to do is convince Nonesuch to bring this back to the public ear via a newly remastered CD version.

And 3 years after this post was made, I happened to find this record in the 50 cent rack at my local used store. Nice stuff!
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Sean on July 26, 2013, 01:27:45 PM
The Super voices musicales with Pro antique cantione as coupled with the Ockeghem Requiem is an amazingly rich all male choir recording with individual voices only partly dissolved into the whole, one of the greatest renaissance music recordings.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 26, 2013, 01:36:41 PM
The Super voices musicales with Pro antique cantione as coupled with the Ockeghem Requiem

I have that Ockeghem Requiem on the original Archiv LP, coupled with Josquin's Deploration. It's a slow performance, but very fervent and intense, and I like the discreet instrumental accompaniment. By comparison, my other recording of the Requiem (Clerks' Group) is way too bright and prosaic.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Sean on July 26, 2013, 01:52:36 PM
Absolutely, the brass ensemble accompaniment is discretion incarnate. An extremely sophisticated issue.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on December 15, 2015, 09:56:50 AM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/115/MI0001115246.jpg)


This recording of Missa Gaudeamus really changes the game in Josquin performance, and maybe in early music generally. The reason is that De Labyrintho sing the mass more expressively, with greater nuances of texture, colour and dynamics, than any other account of music by Josquin that I know, or of anyone else. It's not at all like you're eves-dropping on a ritual, it's more like you're listening to a concert in an audience.

It reminds me of Leonhardt's DHM Art of Fugue, about which I would say similar things.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on December 15, 2015, 10:38:56 PM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/189/MI0001189687.jpg) (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/063/MI0001063770.jpg)

I fear that the personal impact of Labyrintho's M. Gaudeamus has been greater than I had anticipated, This recording of M. Malheur me bat from Peter Phillips and his Tallis singers is wonderful in every way save one. Great singing, well balanced and lively. But cold and brightly lit. And haven't Labyrintho taught is that Josquin was far from phlegmatic? And haven't they revealed how his music is best lit with chiaroscuro? I tried Clerks group in MMMB but I have to say I prefer The Tallis Scholars strength.

Oh well.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on December 16, 2015, 01:05:46 PM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/064/MI0001064446.jpg)

On the other hand, the recording of the M. L'Homme Armé s.v.m., on the disc above from Peter Philips and his crew, is anything but cold. This is one of the greats, I'm sure of it. Full of feeling, ideal balance of voices, rapt and energetic, fluid, focused and intense.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: kishnevi on December 17, 2015, 06:09:41 PM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/064/MI0001064446.jpg)

On the other hand, the recording of the M. L'Homme Armé s.v.m., on the disc above from Peter Philips and his crew, is anything but cold. This is one of the greats, I'm sure of it. Full of feeling, ideal balance of voices, rapt and energetic, fluid, focused and intense.

There is almost a generation between the two recordings:  L'Homme was recorded in 1989,  Malheur in 2009.  Presumably you are witnessing the change in how Phillips treats the music. 
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on December 18, 2015, 10:16:30 PM
(http://cf-images.emusic.com/music/images/album/130/591/13059144/600x600.jpg)

Another highly nuanced and expressive Josquin mass from De Labyrintho, this time M. Pange Lingue. The recording is hard to find in physical format (can anyone share it with me?), and the downloads are all very poor quality. Nevertheless this is such a revelatory nuanced performance it repays suffering the poor transfer. I'm listening to it through spotify and as far as I can see it has been rejected by high quality download services like Qobuz and googleplay.

What the Labyrintho approach lacks is strength - it's so artful and so poetic and so "conducted" that you lose sometimes the forcefulness of O'Donnel/Westminster or Janequin Ensemble. But  this recording like their M. Gaudeamus transforms expectations of what a Josequin mass should sound like.

Has anyone looked at the music of m. Pange Lingue? Am I right to think there are no canons?
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on December 21, 2015, 08:27:03 AM
(http://coversr.mp3va.com/220/73/10/371073.jpg)

The strange  thing about this M. Pange Lingue from Sei Voci and the kids from the Maîtrise singing school in France is the contrast between the parts for grown ups - taken one or two to a part - and the parts taken by the boys. It made me think of classical and romantic masses, where you have choir and soloists, things like Missa Solemnis.

Another thing I like is the range of feeling - I'd say at least as impressive in this mass as those other Italians, De Labyrintho, probably more impressive.  Listen, for example, to how sad the start of the credo sounds. Maybe doing Josquin with lots of feeling is an Italian thing, rather than something De Labaryntho have patented (or are Sei Voci French?)

Sound is fine: much much better than De Labyrintho on spotify.

The recording come with some AMAZING motets!!!!

On the U.S. Amazon there's a review dissing the children's choir their technique. But I'm not  bothered by any failing in that department.

You know, over the past few weeks I've listened to a lot of early masses and I keep thinking of Missa Solemnis, all that stuff you read about Beethoven studying Palestrina and possibly others. Maybe there really is a connection, I haven't listened to the Beethoven for a while.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Que on December 21, 2015, 08:55:20 AM
I love that Sei Voci recording. I had the set of their Desprez recordings and found it wonderful.

Q
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Drasko on December 21, 2015, 10:20:33 AM
(http://cf-images.emusic.com/music/images/album/130/591/13059144/600x600.jpg)

Another highly nuanced and expressive Josquin mass from De Labyrintho, this time M. Pange Lingua. The recording is hard to find in physical format (can anyone share it with me?)

I never knew this recording existed. If you happen to find the CD or decent quality rip I'd appreciate if you'd share it (and vice versa of course).

(http://coversr.mp3va.com/220/73/10/371073.jpg)

On the U.S. Amazon there's a review dissing the children's choir their technique. But I'm not  bothered by any failing in that department.


Well, the mushiness is pretty obvious, but I also find that the atmosphere the line-up creates is acceptable trade off. Wouldn't want it to be my only recording of the piece though.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on December 21, 2015, 09:54:25 PM


Well, the mushiness is pretty obvious, but I also find that the atmosphere the line-up creates is acceptable trade off. Wouldn't want it to be my only recording of the piece though.

I don't feel the same about Sei Voci's M. Gaudeamus, especially in the  the canons.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on December 23, 2015, 05:32:30 AM
(http://d250ptlkmugbjz.cloudfront.net/images/covers/47/24/3610155392447_600.jpg)

The M. Pange Lingue here from Safford Cape's Pro Musica Antiqua is from the 1950s. it is as far as I can tell one voice to a part, and is very transparently and equally balanced. In terms of phrasing it's quite natural I think. The ficta are handled in a way which minimises dissonance, but it's so deeply felt that this is anything but a placid performance. The singing style is a bit dated. The transfer is fine.  I stumbled across it while listening to different performances of the credo on spotify.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Artem on December 26, 2015, 07:54:36 PM
I've listened to these two disks today.




Herreweghe's recording is new to me and I only listened to it twice. Maybe it is to early to make a conclusion after only a few listened, but it didn't grab me yet.

Capella Pratensis' disk had been with me for a while now. All male group create a very nice sound. According to the liner notes, they were recorded singing in the circle, which is supposed to be more authentic.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on December 26, 2015, 10:47:53 PM
I've listened to these two disks today.





Capella Pratensis' disk had been with me for a while now. All male group create a very nice sound. According to the liner notes, they were recorded singing in the circle, which is supposed to be more authentic.

For me, this recording is spoilt by the cathedral like ambience. Too much reverb.

I'd like to see Cappella Pratensis, but all their 2016 recitals is as far as I can see of  music I don't know, so I'm reluctant to travel to Belgium or Holland for it.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: mjwal on December 31, 2015, 06:32:19 AM
For me, this recording is spoilt by the cathedral like ambience. Too much reverb.

I'd like to see Cappella Pratensis, but all their 2016 recitals is as far as I can see of  music I don't know, so I'm reluctant to travel to Belgium or Holland for it.
I won't say "my favourite", because I only have this one recording of Ave Maris Stella, but A Sei Voci are magnificent in this, as they are in assorted shorter pieces included on the CD e.g. a marvellous Alma Redemptoris Mater.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on February 08, 2016, 01:43:12 PM
(http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/imgs/s300x300/4634732.jpg)

The style here in this recording of motets by The Orlando Consort makes me think of harpsichord players like Chorzempa and Leonhardt. That's to say, that somehow they manage to be both very expressive and very controlled. I wish I could find recordings of the masses which were in this style.

Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on February 13, 2016, 08:11:58 AM
(http://www.gimell.com/img/album/x175/CDGIM-039.jpg)

The mass, Sine Nomine, makes me think of Obrecht's Maria Zart and Malheur me Bat, because of the preponderance of imitative counterpoint and the sense of underlying unity and structural plan. It  seems less dependent for its impact on melody, though I could be wrong about that. The Tallis Sholars adapt their style accordingly, the way they sing here makes me think of their Obrecht.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: (: premont :) on February 13, 2016, 04:22:10 PM
... makes me think of harpsichord players like Chorzempa and Leonhardt. That's to say, that somehow they manage to be both very expressive and very controlled.

Very well put. and food for thought.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on February 15, 2016, 12:56:13 AM
Very well put. and food for thought.

I think it's good that Orlando Consort have managed to preserve this expressive and controlled style through changes of line up. What makes me say that is their recent Voir Dit songs - it is exceptional IMO.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on February 17, 2016, 01:59:03 PM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/005/MI0003005144.jpg)  (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/064/MI0001064446.jpg)

I've been listening to two versions of M. L'Homme Armé svm,  Metamorphoses and Tallis Scholars. These are just preliminary impressions, I'm not sure really.

If you listen to the credo of  the mass by Metamorphoses, one  striking thing is the  dynamic variation. I think this happens because they sometimes sing one to a part, sometimes more than one.

The result is that the music has lots of contours, lots of "In your face" drama. Peter Phillips less so. There's drama in the Tallis Scholars recording, but it's less extreme.

When metamorphoses sing et resurexit it made me think of the B minor mass!

There approach to ficta through the mass and dissonance is also interesting. Somehow what they do seems to give each part of the mass its own "tonal" identity. Again Peter Phillips less so.

And there's something which you sometimes read in reviews on Amazon which is applicable here. With Metamorphoses you know all the time you're listening to real people with real personalities. With Peter Phillips less so.

There's a sweetness about Metamorphoses. Tallis Scholars seem firmer, stronger almost.

Tempos of both seem good to me, given their different acoustic environments.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on March 28, 2016, 11:01:29 PM
(http://www1.hbdirect.com/coverm/57/2617557.jpg)

This recording by Lucien Kandel with Ensemble Musica Nova is mostly dedicated to Josquin motets, though it is interspersed with organ music by Cavazzoni and the odd motet by others.  Much of the music is unavailable elsewhere on record as far as I know.

The voices cohere: the timbres all resemble each other, and to some extent this means that not so aware of the individual human character of each performer.  This may well be authentic. The style of singing feels über-controlled. I have the feeling that they are working hard and not smiling much.

The organ playing (by Joseph Rassam) is studious and resembles the singing in style.

All the above sounds negative, but that is not really my intended effect. The CD is worth hearing I think, in the same way that some recordings by Quarteto Italiano are worth hearing. And the music is rare and good.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on March 28, 2016, 11:21:56 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/518FvnIFNmL._SS280.jpg)

The Kandel/Musica Nova can be well appreciated by contrasting it with the singing style in this old CD of Josquin Motets by Dominique Visse and Ensemble Clément Janequin, where the character of each individual voice is much more evident. With this recording you can picture a handful of human beings gathered round a score making music together. Both Kandel and Visse are intense and serious, the former more abstract.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on June 19, 2016, 08:20:20 AM
(http://www.gimell.com/img/album/x175/CDGIM-039.jpg)

The Missa Sine Nomine is a late contrapuntal mass, recorded here by Peter Philips, and very nicely performed - OVPP I think, or if not, close, so you can clearly hear the voices, and polished in a way which is perfect for Josquin's classicism. Unlike J S Bach in the B minor mass, Josquin doesn't woo the listener with memorable melodies. And unlike Obrecht in Missa Maria Zart or Agricola in Missa Myne Zyn, he doesn't woo the listener with obviously virtuosic and convoluted counterpoint. Instead the strength of this mass has something to do with refinement, urbanity. And expression of affect.

The Tallis Scholars voices are  neural, colourless. Angels singing, not people. This makes the music sound very abstract, transcendent and inhuman. Like a gothic ricercar for keyboard  in fact.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: kishnevi on June 19, 2016, 06:23:07 PM
(http://www.gimell.com/img/album/x175/CDGIM-039.jpg)

The Missa Sine Nomine is a late contrapuntal mass, recorded here by Peter Philips, and very nicely performed - OVPP I think, or if not, close, so you can clearly hear the voices, and polished in a way which is perfect for Josquin's classicism. Unlike J S Bach in the B minor mass, Josquin doesn't woo the listener with memorable melodies. And unlike Obrecht in Missa Maria Zart or Agricola in Missa Myne Zyn, he doesn't woo the listener with obviously virtuosic and convoluted counterpoint. Instead the strength of this mass has something to do with refinement, urbanity. And expression of affect.

The Tallis Scholars voices are  neural, colourless. Angels singing, not people. This makes the music sound very abstract, transcendent and inhuman. Like a gothic ricercar for keyboard  in fact.

The booklet lists two singers each for soprano, tenor, altus, and bass, for a total of eight voices.

For some reason the choir sections are listed like that in the credits, but  listed in the normal SATB order for M. ad Fugam, which fills out that CD.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on December 17, 2016, 07:27:33 AM
Josquin discography here

http://plainsong.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Josquin-des-Prez-Discography.pdf
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: San Antone on January 09, 2017, 09:23:24 AM
I was surprised to find out there was no thread in the Composer section for Josquin Desprez (or des Prez), so I started this one.  There was a thread called "Josquin Desprez Recordings", but is only one page, so Que moved it here.   :)

Feel free to post anything and everything related to this great composer .

Some historical information from Grove:

That Josquin was the greatest composer of the high Renaissance, the most varied in invention and the most profound in expression, has become almost a commonplace of musical history, thanks to the work of scholars such as those mentioned above and of the steadily increasing number of performers who have helped, both in concert and through their recordings, to make his music known to modern listeners. In some quarters this has provoked, perhaps inevitably, something like a revisionist backlash, both against Josquin’s reputation and against a scholarly mindset that is seen as having fostered it too unquestioningly.

It is undoubtedly true that early generations of music historians were hampered by an incomplete knowledge of the surviving sources – something that has only been remedied by the completion of the University of Illinois’s Census-Catalogue in 1988. It would be unwarranted, however, to deduce from this that previous attempts to establish a canon of Josquin's authentic works were naively uncritical. There is still plenty of room for doubt in individual cases, and in the revised work-list at the end of the present article indications of scholarly disagreement have been given both among those works the authors consider probably authentic and among those they do not. It must be emphasized that all scholars acknowledge a continuum of degrees of doubt between the extremes of those works generally accepted as certainly by Josquin and those recognized as certainly not by him; the main work-list is not confined to the former extreme but also includes many works the authors regard as probably but not certainly authentic, and a fair number of compositions are finely balanced between ‘probably’ and ‘probably not’.

The degree of scepticism employed in attempting to establish the authenticity of individual works will depend on the experience and temperament of the individual scholar, and must thus be to some extent subjective. Moreover, the evidence (whether it concerns the dating and reliability of sources, or the availability of biographical data) will itself usually remain incomplete and uncertain, and hence subject to interpretation. Whatever consensus emerges through the interaction of informed opinions will and should remain fluid, capable of accommodating new evidence, both internal and external – new archival discoveries, new insights into the music. A case in point is the fundamental one of Josquin’s date of birth (see §1 above).

It has also been maintained that Josquin’s legendary supremacy among his contemporaries was essentially a creation of the 16th century, and that his high standing among modern musicologists rests on an attempt to perpetuate, or even enhance, an anachronistic view of him. Wegman in particular (1994 and in Sherr, forthcoming) has claimed that Josquin’s celebrity during his lifetime, or at least until the middle of the first decade of the 16th century, was considerably less than Obrecht’s, though the latter has been less highly regarded ever since. Yet the nature of and grounds for compositorial fame before the second quarter of the 16th century are little understood. It is true that Josquin’s reputation was to benefit more than Obrecht’s from the effect of printing technology on the transmission of music and music theory, but the histories of their employment do not suggest that he had been any less highly regarded during their lifetimes. In contrast to Obrecht, Josquin was essentially a court musician, who by 1504 had been in the service of René of Anjou, Cardinal Ascanio Sforza, the dukes of Milan and Ferrara, Popes Innocent VIII and Alexander VI, and perhaps two kings of France; thereafter he spent the last 17 years of his life as provost of Condé. This scarcely looks like the career of an unregarded composer.

In any case Josquin’s high standing in modern times rests not on the gullible repetition of received ideas, but on the direct experience of a sizable body of music very plausibly attributed to him. If a total, organic picture of his creative development has been slow to appear, and has still, two decades after the previous edition of this dictionary, not come into sharp focus, the reasons are not far to seek. Josquin’s productive career was a long one, perhaps as much as 50 years, and the quantity of his music that survives (even discounting the works doubtfully ascribed to him) is greater than that of any other composer of the period with the possible exceptions of Isaac and Obrecht. But the sources in which this music survives give relatively little help with its chronology. Music printing made its appearance only in the last two decades of Josquin’s life; unlike later 16th-century publications, moreover, which almost always made a point of the novelty of their contents, Petrucci’s earliest collections, both sacred and secular, are clearly anthologies drawn from the repertory of the previous 20 or even 30 years. For Josquin, the dates of Petrucci’s publications provide only a terminus ante quem: how new or old a given composition may have been when it was published is something that has to be decided on other evidence. More surprising, perhaps, is the lack of information to be derived from manuscript sources. Time, war and enthusiasm (both religious and anti-religious) have wrought such destruction on the musical material of the later 15th century that very few manuscript copies of music by Josquin survive from before 1500. Yet the body of his surviving work is so large and so diverse that we cannot conveniently posit the loss of all his early music; some of it at least must be contained in these comparatively ‘late’ sources, though they themselves fail to provide an accurate date for its composition.

Patrick Macey, et al. "Josquin des Prez, 10. Works: canon and chronology." Grove Music Online. Oxford Music Online. Oxford University Press. Web. 9 Jan. 2017. <http://www.oxfordmusiconline.com/subscriber/article/grove/music/14497>.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on June 09, 2017, 07:24:40 AM
(https://www.europadisc.co.uk/images/products-190/1458037095_AR20151.jpg)

What Metamorphoses and Biscantor do better than anyone else I can think of in Missa Pange Lingue, is create a feeling of mysticism, where time stands still. This mass, in their hands, is full of this sort of thing. The women's choir Biscantor make the sound fresh and radiant, it's a very attractive sound world I think. Harmonious and lyrical singing, never dissonant or jolting.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on June 09, 2017, 07:51:24 PM
Richard Sher's introduction to The Josquin Companion

https://sophia.smith.edu/~rsherr/josintro.htm
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on July 10, 2017, 08:23:36 AM
(http://www.singers.com/choral/choralimages5/HenrysEight200.jpg)


Absolve quaesumus, Domine, animam famuli tui
ab omni vincula delictorum;
Ut in resurrectionis gloria, inter sanctos et electos tuos
resuscitatus respiret.
Per Christum Dominum nostrum, Amen.
Requiescat in pace. Amen.


O Lord, pardon we pray the soul of your servant
from all the chains of sin;
That in the glory of the resurrection, he may live again,
revived, among your holy chosen ones.
Through Christ our Lord. Amen.
May he rest in peace. Amen.

I have four recordings of this motet, which may have been written for Obrecht's funeral - Henry's Eight, Currende Consort, Clerk's Group and King's Singers.

The poem starts off pleading, and there's a poignant reminder of man's sin. The mood rapidly changes to hope in God's salvation. The poem ends with a plea peace for the deceased's soul.

Henry's Eight are bold and imaginative.. I was very impressed by the way they introduce a powerful and moving dissonance on the words "ab omni vincula delictorum." How authentic  this is for Josquin I wouldn't like to say (what was the contenance anglaise exactly?) but I think it is poetically justifiable. The voicing is clear and surprisingly independent, the voices are individually characterful, resulting in complicated and interesting textures.

Currende Consort pull off a fabulous coup de theatre by chanting some of the requiem mass before the motet, it's effective to hear Josquin's music in a liturgical context and I wish that more people recorded it like that. Theirs is a large scale and relatively extrovert performance, as would befit a public occasion like Obrecht's funeral.

King's Singers are meh.

Clerks Group are introverted, transparent, wonderfully executed and perhaps without the imaginativeness or sensitivity to the nuances of the poetry of Henry's Eight.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on July 11, 2017, 07:35:48 AM
Stabat mater

The grieving mother stood
 Next to the cross, tearful,
  While her son hung,
Whose groaning soul,
 Saddened and grieving,
  The sword pierced.
Oh how sad and afflicted
 Was that blessed
  Mother of the only-begotten,
Who mourned and grieved
 And trembled when she saw
  The punishment of her illustrious son.
Who is one who would not weep,
 If one saw the Mother of Christ
  In such torment?
Who could not be saddened
 To gaze upon the holy Mother
  Grieving with her son?
For the sins of her people,
 She saw Jesus in torture,
  And subjected to scourges.
She saw her sweet son
 Left dying
  While he gave up the spirit.

Come, Mother, fountain of love,
 Make me perceive the force of grief,
  That I may weep with you.
Make my heart bum
 In loving Christ the god,
  That I may be acceptable to him.
Virgin brightest of virgins,
 Do not now be harsh with me,
  Make me lament with you.
Make me carry the death of Christ,
 The prophecy of his suffering,
  And recall his stripes.
Make me wounded by his wounds,
 To be drunk with this cross,
  For love of the Son.
Flaming and burning,
 0 Virgin, may I be protected by you
  On the day of judgment.
Let me be protected by the cross,
 Forearmed by Christ's death,
  Embraced by grace.
When the body dies,
 Let my soul be given
  The glory of Paradise.
Amen.

There's a recording of this one which I think is really outstanding, by Eckerhard Keim and The Dufay Ensemble. I like it so much because it's prayerful, the second part especially is sung with a candour and quiet intensity which I find irresistible.


Labyrintho and Sei Voce sing forth in extrovert gestures.  This is not the style I like, and so despite the wonderful nuance of Walter Testolin's recording especially, it's not for me.

(THe Testolin CD with Missa Pange Lingue is rather good and the Amazon download has acceptable sound. I'm glad to have it before it disappears.)

Ensemble Jachet de Manchue are more introverted in part 1, which is nice but they lose it in part 2.   

I thought Herewegghe sounded interesting, I probably need to give it more attention. I haven't heard Pomerium, I'm going to try to get the recording, but it's not easy to find at an affordable price.

Anyway, it's been nice to respond so positively to Dufay Ensemble.


(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_1080/MI0003/034/MI0003034804.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on March 02, 2018, 02:22:28 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81AUwzNBfCL._SX522_.jpg)

Peter Philips's Missa Pange Lingua gets a very negative review from someone called "Gio" on Amazon.com, and for years the review put me off listening to the recording. Anyway a friend told me today that he liked what Philips does, so I dug it out.

It was a mistake to so influenced by Gio's review. I think it's a satisfying performance and an interesting and stimulating one. What Gio said he heard I do not hear in the same way. I do not think that it sounds too thin. I do not think that the difference between the timbres of the male and female voices is problematic (I wish he'd have spelled out the problem though!) . I do not think that Philips is sluggish at all, on the contrary I find it sufficiently alert and energetic, given Philips prayerful and introverted conception of the music.

Philips's performance is mostly 2 on a part. The small forces and reflective tempos make it austere as a performance, and sometimes more rapt and  hypnotic than virtuosic and  thrilling. I think that's a major plus aesthetically, all the more so given that this is a mass!

Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: San Antone on March 02, 2018, 04:03:09 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81AUwzNBfCL._SX522_.jpg)

Peter Philips's Missa Pange Lingua gets a very negative review from someone called "Gio" on Amazon.com, and for years the review put me off listening to the recording. Anyway a friend told me today that he liked what Philips does, so I dug it out.

It was a mistake to so influenced by Gio's review. I think it's a satisfying performance and an interesting and stimulating one. What Gio said he heard I do not hear in the same way. I do not think that it sounds too thin. I do not think that the difference between the timbres of the male and female voices is problematic (I wish he'd have spelled out the problem though!) . I do not think that Philips is sluggish at all, on the contrary I find it sufficiently alert and energetic, given Philips prayerful and introverted conception of the music.

Philips's performance is mostly 2 on a part. The small forces and reflective tempos make it austere as a performance, and sometimes more rapt and  hypnotic than virtuosic and  thrilling. I think that's a major plus aesthetically, all the more so given that this is a mass!

I generally respect what Peter Phillips and the Tallis Scholars do with music from this period and have purchased almost everything they have released  from Hyperion.  Also, I don't read reviews before purchasing once I have decided that I can rely on the performers whom I have enjoyed in the past. 

This disc is no different, and I take the negative comments with a grain of salt, despite coming from an otherwise also reliable Amazon reviewer such as "Gio".
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 21, 2018, 07:29:47 AM
And more from ClassicsToday:

Joy in the Mourning

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DqCjFw8W4AEakxj.jpg) (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/joy-in-the-mourning-josquin-des-prez-funeral-motets/)
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Draško on October 21, 2018, 09:49:22 AM
And more from ClassicsToday:

Joy in the Mourning

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DqCjFw8W4AEakxj.jpg)

How big is Cappella Amsterdam on this? More than twenty singers?
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 21, 2018, 11:27:00 AM
How big is Cappella Amsterdam on this? More than twenty singers?

I'd like to say: I mention it in the review -- but I'll just let you know all the same, hoping you'll click on it, anyway.  ;)

Quote
...As a fitting closing measure Daniel Reuss and his 13 singers (four-to-a-part in the S-T-B setup, plus one alto) add Musæ Jovis...
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Draško on October 21, 2018, 02:49:12 PM
I'd like to say: I mention it in the review -- but I'll just let you know all the same, hoping you'll click on it, anyway.  ;)

Thank you. I've read the review must have missed that detail.

I'm asking because the Herreweghe recording of somewhat similar repertoire with La Chapelle Royale of some 20-ish singers was despite critical acclaim just too big for my taste. Thirteen might just work as Reuss is fantastic choral conductor, I'll give it a try.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on March 22, 2019, 05:43:19 AM
(https://d24jnm9llkb1ub.cloudfront.net/icpn/3149020935552/3149020935552-cover-zoom.jpg)



A very negative review of Reuss’s CD here

Quote from: Todd McComb here http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/cds/remarks.html
And I suppose that my continued refrain regarding motets, and so why so many groups are focusing only on mass cycles, has become tedious: Yet motets have long been regarded as Josquin's most significant output, so their neglect is particularly vexing. And so I was happy to see a new program finally appear: Indeed, even seeing the announcement reminded me of the Herreweghe classic (which was, coincidentally, relatively new when the EM FAQ project began, and so my first Josquin recommendation there), but the result felt more like a journey back in time than merely that: I don't mean it in a positive sense either, but rather as a regression in attitude & approach toward the music, i.e. as a renewed attempt to approach it from a later (largely Baroque, i.e. modern) perspective. Reading the liner notes in particular felt almost like my work had never existed: From trivial complaints such as never mentioning Absalon, fili mi at all (and so its more recent attribution to La Rue), to the pat absurdity of claiming that people wouldn't have been able to hear two melodies at once, they're utterly dismissive of a medieval orientation (& without even mentioning the possibility, almost as if part of a "there is no alternative" Thatcherist cant...). The performance follows suit (or perhaps the notes reflect the performance): The earlier repertory is performed in a wretched manner, with absurd ahistorical tuning & ficta, and indeed muddled phrasing that obscures the middle parts almost completely. This jumbled mess of turgid rhythmic interpolations & cadential "tics" does then start to sound almost appropriate by the time of the more motivic Miserere (as the program proceeds mostly chronologically), i.e. the title track & without cantus firmus.... One can barely pick out the tenor elsewhere, and so of course the various chants are obscured, and moreover, rather than emphasizing intervals around the tenor, tuning is allowed to move around (including there, in the "hold" voice) in order to emphasize a smooth, soprano-dominated texture. I haven't read any other discussion of this interpretation to this point, but I have no doubt that it'll be hailed by Baroque-oriented listeners (& people who just love Western imperialism, whatever else they might claim) who — pace e.g. the complaints regarding tuning by Ars Antiqua, which is at least according to a well intended approach, if not fine execution — want their music to sound "angelic" & placidly unchallenging, while anything premodern should indeed seem obscure & pointless. The result is a triumph in this sense! Do I know anything about who Daniel Reuss is? No, other than that he has recorded later music to this point, and that this is supposed to be the start of his series on the Renaissance.... The whole thing comes off as an unrepentant glorification of imperial modernity to me, and so quite far from clashing sorrows.... I mean, to be fair, there are some nice moments where some of the distinctive sweep of the famous motets reveals itself, but in obscuring most of the musical detail, that also comes off as imperious in & of itself. I try not to get too much into negative rants here, but "disappointing" doesn't begin to describe the resulting impact. (And yes, it also makes for something of a meditation on the passing of internet — & so general — relevance for non-commercial sites such as this. None of this should surprise me, yet hearing it really did offend me in a pretty basic way. Boo!) To return to the "back in time" observation, then, this album doesn't prompt me to look back to c.1500, but rather back to c.1980 — or perhaps (itself in distorted form) to c.1600. The latter seems to have been the intent.


In fact I haven’t given it much attention since I made this post last year

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71q9jLwQM0L._SL1200_.jpg)

The Josquin Pater Noster/Ave Maria with Reuss/Amsterdam Cappella. This is very familiar music to Josquin people, but it’s not familiar to me to hear it sung by so many people. In the booklet we learn that Josquin asked in his testament for it to be sung outside his house . . .

Why can’t four people sing outside?

but I thought I’d paste Todd McComb’s comments here because they contain something interesting I think, the pairing of a baroque approach to medieval music, and imperial/colonial ideology. I don’t know how far he’s developed this thought, whether it’s just superficial (i.e. modern style was developed at the time when the west was colonising) or whether it’s deeper (the aesthetics of modern style, in some sense, and choosing as vague a word as possible, goes hand in hand with colonial ideology.) Something to explore there, no doubt his website contains more about this. For all I know it could be a very well researched area.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 22, 2019, 08:44:57 AM
(https://d24jnm9llkb1ub.cloudfront.net/icpn/3149020935552/3149020935552-cover-zoom.jpg)


A very negative review of Reuss’s CD here

I get the point, I think (it's not super cogently written), in that I am often put off by performances that perform Gluck looking at it from Mozart. But I wouldn't know if that's what is happening here, presumably for lack of exposure to enough medieval music theory.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: JBS on March 22, 2019, 01:33:12 PM
Mr McComb listened it to it with the ears of a musical historian. I listened to it without such ears, and enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on June 28, 2019, 04:30:54 AM
(https://outhere-music.com/cache/im/album_portrait/uploads/albums/5ce80839addd6.jpeg?1.0.1.1)

I think this is interesting for three reasons, viz:

1.  Basically what they've done is take some Josquin settings for more than one voice, and set them as songs for a soloist accompanied by a lute. Apparently, and not surprisingly, a perfectly common way of going about things in Josquin's day, and was much appreciated for the way it allows the listener to focus on the impact of a melody rather than the ingenuity of the interaction of several melodies.

2. The voice of the singer, a deepish tenor / highish baritone called Romain Bockler, which is nice and milk chocolatey.

3. A lute specially built for some of the songs, the result of a serious Swiss research project by the looks of it, which they call a bray lute, it sounds like a twangy harp and they cite reasons in texts to support the suggestion that it's possibly like what C 15 century lutes would have sounded like. It's a bit of a shock to the ears, but by no means in a bad way.

Worth a listen I'd say, nice music for the June sunshine.

Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: vers la flamme on April 12, 2020, 07:27:28 AM
Bump for a great composer.

I got a CD recently of the Hilliard Ensemble singing Motets and Chansons of Josquin Desprez. This is some extremely impressive music. In fact, I find it difficult to listen to in anything but a small dose, on account of the densely polyphonic beauty of it all. I don't think I'm ready to dive into his liturgical music—I think that hearing a full mass of his by the right ensemble would render me immobilized and speechless for an hour or so, and convinced that Josquin was the greatest composer to ever live.

Indeed, I recently read the testimony of a member on another board who claimed that Josquin's music was the culmination of an aesthetic that is superior to that of later music, something more attuned to a spiritual plane that we no longer fully have access to, or at least that we do not celebrate like we used to, or something along those lines. For whatever reason this comment stuck with me and I've been thinking about it a lot, and trying to understand Renaissance and Medieval polyphony for what it is. Listening to Josquin's music, I am inclined to agree.

But anyway, it's more than I can take at the present moment. I will stick with Dufay and Frye and Machaut and Pérotin for now. I am still able to get a glimpse of that same form and ideal from their music.

Anyone listening to Josquin lately? What are some essential discs of his music? I only have that Hilliard disc on Virgin Veritas, and an Archiv CD with the Missa "L'homme armé super voces musicales", which I have decided not to tackle just yet for reasons alluded to above.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: T. D. on April 12, 2020, 07:53:30 AM
Josquin is probably my favorite composer in the "Renaissance polyphony" sector. Recently have been giving him a rest and listening to others, though.
Many others are far more qualified to recommend recordings, so take the following with a grain of salt.
You recently inquired about the Binchois Consort: this is quite good and mostly Josquin. [Oops: authorship of almost all the pieces attributed to Josquin have been disputed. My bad.]
(https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/034571171838.png)
Most recent Josquin I listened to was this 2-disc series:
(https://img.discogs.com/gohSB5XwYi42v7zqtJ6B4WZMB78=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-14780287-1581449300-9733.jpeg.jpg)  (https://img.discogs.com/WR4X_5HtquJGym7FdJyJx-7jkOg=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-12798448-1542147967-7345.jpeg.jpg)

FWIW, over the years I got a big share of my Renaissance polyphony recordings from Berkshire Record Outlet, particularly titles on the Hyperion and Gimell labels. But I haven't checked BRO's inventory lately.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: vers la flamme on April 12, 2020, 08:11:34 AM
^Thanks for that. I've been looking at that Binchois Consort disc. I'm sure it's great. And those CPO discs look interesting as well.

I'm not really familiar with Berkshire Record Outlet, though I have seen a few references to them lately. Are they still up and running?
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mahlerian on April 12, 2020, 08:19:46 AM
Bump for a great composer.

I got a CD recently of the Hilliard Ensemble singing Motets and Chansons of Josquin Desprez. This is some extremely impressive music. In fact, I find it difficult to listen to in anything but a small dose, on account of the densely polyphonic beauty of it all. I don't think I'm ready to dive into his liturgical music—I think that hearing a full mass of his by the right ensemble would render me immobilized and speechless for an hour or so, and convinced that Josquin was the greatest composer to ever live.

Indeed, I recently read the testimony of a member on another board who claimed that Josquin's music was the culmination of an aesthetic that is superior to that of later music, something more attuned to a spiritual plane that we no longer fully have access to, or at least that we do not celebrate like we used to, or something along those lines. For whatever reason this comment stuck with me and I've been thinking about it a lot, and trying to understand Renaissance and Medieval polyphony for what it is. Listening to Josquin's music, I am inclined to agree.

But anyway, it's more than I can take at the present moment. I will stick with Dufay and Frye and Machaut and Pérotin for now. I am still able to get a glimpse of that same form and ideal from their music.

Anyone listening to Josquin lately? What are some essential discs of his music? I only have that Hilliard disc on Virgin Veritas, and an Archiv CD with the Missa "L'homme armé super voces musicales", which I have decided not to tackle just yet for reasons alluded to above.

I sang in a concert of Josquin's music last December. We performed the entire Missa Pange Lingua (transposed up a minor third to G phrygian, because we had an SATB choir). We didn't do it straight through though, it was interspersed with other Josquin motets and chansons.

Before I had the experience of singing 15th/16th century polyphony, I didn't understand it nearly as well as I do now. When you're on the inside, you can feel the motion of the individual lines and understand the sense of the whole.

Tallis scholars, also singing transposed to G phrygian (though we sang with more sharpened ficta leading tones):
https://www.youtube.com/v/vlB1HR4BgUg
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on April 12, 2020, 08:30:01 AM


Indeed, I recently read the testimony of a member on another board who claimed that Josquin's music was the culmination of an aesthetic that is superior to that of later music, something more attuned to a spiritual plane that we no longer fully have access to, or at least that we do not celebrate like we used to, or something along those lines. For whatever reason this comment stuck with me and I've been thinking about it a lot, and trying to understand Renaissance and Medieval polyphony for what it is. Listening to Josquin's music, I am inclined to agree.


Well I don't know about spiritual planes, but I'm not very keen on what I think of as post-Josquin music, from the first half of the 16th century. The textures thicken, there's less relief and things become a bit drab. Gombert  and Willaert are two composers whose church music I've tried and tried to see the point of, and failed. There are probably exceptions, Regnart for example.

Bump for a great composer.

I got a CD recently of the Hilliard Ensemble singing Motets and Chansons of Josquin Desprez. This is some extremely impressive music. In fact, I find it difficult to listen to in anything but a small dose, on account of the densely polyphonic beauty of it all. I don't think I'm ready to dive into his liturgical music—I think that hearing a full mass of his by the right ensemble would render me immobilized and speechless for an hour or so, and convinced that Josquin was the greatest composer to ever live.


One thing you may agree with me about if you hear a Josquin mass well sung is how much his art is about beautiful of sound, sound which is polished till it glows, flames out, gathers to a greatness like the ooze of oil crushed. The first time I heard a Josquin mass in a church, sung by professionals, I was just astonished at the sound of it resonating off the ancient walls, bouncing off the stained glass.

By the way, generally I think it's not a good idea to focus on mass cycles at the expense of motets. Some of the motets are real masterpieces.

I will stick with Dufay and Frye and Machaut and Pérotin for now.

All earlier than Josquin, Machaut and Perotin especially are from a totally different aesthetic point of view I think.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: T. D. on April 12, 2020, 08:41:02 AM
^Thanks for that. I've been looking at that Binchois Consort disc. I'm sure it's great. And those CPO discs look interesting as well.

I'm not really familiar with Berkshire Record Outlet, though I have seen a few references to them lately. Are they still up and running?

I was a huge customer of Berkshire going back to the mid-'90s. They are a big source of cutout/remainder/overstock CDs. I suspect that their business fell off in recent years as "major labels" reissued vast chunks of back catalog in ultra-budget boxes. At various times they've stocked loads of Hyperions and Brilliant Classics.
A few years ago I abandoned BRO completely because their website became completely worthless and unusable.
This year the website, though still awful, was "improved" and can be used with a considerable amount of patience. After long hiatus I placed a couple of orders recently.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: T. D. on April 12, 2020, 09:07:38 AM
Apologies! Most of the pieces on the Binchois Consort Josquin and his contemporaries recording I mentioned above are of questionable provenance, once attributed to Josquin but now disputed.
Perhaps not a good place to start.
I do enjoy the recording, though.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: vers la flamme on April 12, 2020, 09:26:08 AM
All earlier than Josquin, Machaut and Perotin especially are from a totally different aesthetic point of view I think.

Do you see them as belonging to a continuum of influence from one to the next? This is how I was looking at it, but it may be that these composers all developed in isolation from one another, and we may not know exactly who influenced whom. Especially since surely so many names have been forgotten between these earlier centuries and now.

Well I don't know about spiritual planes, but I'm not very keen on what I think of as post-Josquin music, from the first half of the 16th century. The textures thicken, there's less relief and things become a bit drab. Gombert  and Willaert are two composers whose church music I've tried and tried to see the point of, and failed. There are probably exceptions, Regnart for example.

Interesting. I've never listened to Willaert, Gombert or Regnart. I'm new to Renaissance music. But as I've stated my preferences are more toward the earlier stuff into the Medieval, I wonder if I wouldn't feel similarly.

By the way, generally I think it's not a good idea to focus on mass cycles at the expense of motets. Some of the motets are real masterpieces.

Noted. I have that disc of motets and chansons that is really good, probably the best Josquin I've heard yet.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: vers la flamme on April 12, 2020, 09:27:55 AM
Apologies! Most of the pieces on the Binchois Consort Josquin and his contemporaries recording I mentioned above are of questionable provenance, once attributed to Josquin but now disputed.
Perhaps not a good place to start.
I do enjoy the recording, though.

Thanks for letting me know. It may still be of interest to me, in any case.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: vers la flamme on April 12, 2020, 09:31:02 AM
I sang in a concert of Josquin's music last December. We performed the entire Missa Pange Lingua (transposed up a minor third to G phrygian, because we had an SATB choir). We didn't do it straight through though, it was interspersed with other Josquin motets and chansons.

Before I had the experience of singing 15th/16th century polyphony, I didn't understand it nearly as well as I do now. When you're on the inside, you can feel the motion of the individual lines and understand the sense of the whole.

Tallis scholars, also singing transposed to G phrygian (though we sang with more sharpened ficta leading tones):
https://www.youtube.com/v/vlB1HR4BgUg

That sounds like a righteous experience. I’ve long wanted to sing in a Renaissance polyphony choir or vocal ensemble. I’m a rock & roll singer with no classical training whatsoever, but I think I could make that work to my advantage.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: San Antone on April 12, 2020, 09:53:25 AM
Bump for a great composer.

I got a CD recently of the Hilliard Ensemble singing Motets and Chansons of Josquin Desprez. This is some extremely impressive music. In fact, I find it difficult to listen to in anything but a small dose, on account of the densely polyphonic beauty of it all. I don't think I'm ready to dive into his liturgical music—I think that hearing a full mass of his by the right ensemble would render me immobilized and speechless for an hour or so, and convinced that Josquin was the greatest composer to ever live.

Indeed, I recently read the testimony of a member on another board who claimed that Josquin's music was the culmination of an aesthetic that is superior to that of later music, something more attuned to a spiritual plane that we no longer fully have access to, or at least that we do not celebrate like we used to, or something along those lines. For whatever reason this comment stuck with me and I've been thinking about it a lot, and trying to understand Renaissance and Medieval polyphony for what it is. Listening to Josquin's music, I am inclined to agree.

But anyway, it's more than I can take at the present moment. I will stick with Dufay and Frye and Machaut and Pérotin for now. I am still able to get a glimpse of that same form and ideal from their music.

Anyone listening to Josquin lately? What are some essential discs of his music? I only have that Hilliard disc on Virgin Veritas, and an Archiv CD with the Missa "L'homme armé super voces musicales", which I have decided not to tackle just yet for reasons alluded to above.

Josquin was the most famous European composer between Guillaume Dufay and Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina, and is usually considered to be the central figure of the Franco-Flemish School. Josquin is widely considered by music scholars to be the first master of the high Renaissance style of polyphonic vocal music that was emerging during his lifetime. (Wiki description)

Keep in mind that Josquin was born 150 years after Machaut and 50 years after Dufay, and Machaut was born 150 years after Leonin and 100 years after Perotin.  We tend to conflate these composers into the Early Music category, but so much time separated them, their styles are fairly distinct. 

During Machaut's time the writing was still thought of in a linear fashion, whereas by the time of Josquin, vertical harmonies took on their own meaning and were the beginnings of our tonal (major/minor) system.  By the time of Palestrina (225 years after Machaut and 75 years after Josquin), tonality was on firm ground and which came to fruition with Bach.

Josquin was so famous that works were often attributed to him when there was no solid evidence to do so, only recently have works long thought to have been written by him to come into question.  But that is not to say that even works of questionable attribution are not really good music.  The composer Loyset Compère was long thought to have been influenced by Josquin, but because of new information his dates were recently pushed back a decade, leading to the opposite idea of who influenced whom, i.e. Josquin was influenced by Compère, to become accepted.

For myself, I prefer the earlier composers, Machaut and Dufay, and later ones like Palestrina, to Josquin.  But like Wiki said, Josquin is considered the "master of the high Renaissance style".

Machaut was also very famous, and I would be surprised if Josquin did not know his music - but as for other composers, it would be hard to say.  Much of this music was limited to a relatively small regional area.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: vers la flamme on April 12, 2020, 10:53:04 AM
^OK, I was wrong to say those names in a sentence. I didn't mean to imply that I found any one of them similar to any other. As for whether or not any of them knew the music of another, I don't know, but I know that Walter Frye's music, at least, was somehow disseminated all over Europe despite that there is no record of his ever having left England. I'm curious if this was the case with any of the others, but I suppose it is wrong to assume a chain of influence between any of these composers like what we would see later on (ie. Vivaldi influenced Bach influenced Mozart influenced Beethoven etc etc).
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mahlerian on April 12, 2020, 11:20:54 AM
^OK, I was wrong to say those names in a sentence. I didn't mean to imply that I found any one of them similar to any other. As for whether or not any of them knew the music of another, I don't know, but I know that Walter Frye's music, at least, was somehow disseminated all over Europe despite that there is no record of his ever having left England. I'm curious if this was the case with any of the others, but I suppose it is wrong to assume a chain of influence between any of these composers like what we would see later on (ie. Vivaldi influenced Bach influenced Mozart influenced Beethoven etc etc).

Josquin wrote a famous memorial piece on the death of Ockeghem, who was an important composer of the immediately preceding generation, and Josquin likewise was seen as very important by contemporaries and immediate successors. I'm not sure how literal the notion of a Franco-Flemish "school" of composition was, and would leave that to specialists, but certainly the composers of each generation studied the works of prior generations.

This might not have gone back very far, though, as I seem to recall one person in the late 1400s saying that no one thought there was any music more than a few decades old worth listening to or performing.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: deprofundis on June 16, 2020, 05:01:00 PM
What is the best Josquin desprz recording worth mentioning and why the heck, Josquin stabat mater by Ensemble Jachet de Mantue, the most prettiest music yet to come before and after what a great records , a milestone this is, in term of execution, one darn sold Josquin release, love it to death, and the one on Ricercare, very good Josquin in deeds, hail Josquin christic radiance, is works trown there and perform here superb magnitude.

Inviolata wow astral bliss for heavens of heavens that on Jachet de Mantoue ensemble there my favorite ensemble since  there so good.. who whit me on this ensemble , they did super Morales Missae's wow , and adieu mes amours song on Ricercare all does it's a fabulous release.
Jachet de mantua is supreme sublimea pure shinning star of heaven, were am  I goeing whit all of this what you'''re favorite release so far.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: amw on June 17, 2020, 12:32:06 AM
I think the ones I listen to the most are the two Weser-Renaissance Bremen/Manfred Cordes albums on CPO, and the Hilliard Ensemble double on Virgin. But that may just be a result of getting the Ensemble Jachet de Mantoue one more recently because it's very good.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: vers la flamme on September 07, 2020, 02:38:30 PM
Bump. Josquin is making more and more sense to me...

(https://i.postimg.cc/nr3PhBMJ/image.png)

My dad bought this for me sometime last year, but somehow I always end up listening to the Ockeghem Requiem and not the Josquin. I'm listening to it now and I like what I'm hearing.

@Mandryka, that "Adieu Mes Amours" disc looks amazing. Going to have to seek that out.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Old San Antone on September 07, 2020, 03:49:18 PM
Bump. Josquin is making more and more sense to me...

(https://i.postimg.cc/nr3PhBMJ/image.png)

My dad bought this for me sometime last year, but somehow I always end up listening to the Ockeghem Requiem and not the Josquin. I'm listening to it now and I like what I'm hearing.

The Pro Cantione Antiqua led by Bruno Turner or Mark Brown is excellent. Their several Palestrina recordings are among my favorites, as is I'm sure this disc you posted.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: vers la flamme on September 07, 2020, 04:07:59 PM
The Pro Cantione Antiqua led by Bruno Turner or Mark Brown is excellent. Their several Palestrina recordings are among my favorites, as is I'm sure this disc you posted.

I see a few Palestrina discs from them. I'll have to check it out. Would you agree that they sing the music in the context of later styles of music? Ie. that they look forward to the late Renaissance and Baroque rather than looking backward to the Medieval. (That's a nicer way of framing a criticism I read on another board against this recording, with the implication that their approach was wrongheaded.)
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on September 07, 2020, 10:45:11 PM


@Mandryka, that "Adieu Mes Amours" disc looks amazing. Going to have to seek that out.

How you feel about it will, of course, depend on your reaction to Romain Bockler’s voice.  I don’t feel that he’s a great enunciator of poetry. For me it’s a good enough CD for the creating a background mood, but doesn’t repay close and critical lstening,
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Old San Antone on September 08, 2020, 04:44:30 AM
I see a few Palestrina discs from them. I'll have to check it out. Would you agree that they sing the music in the context of later styles of music? Ie. that they look forward to the late Renaissance and Baroque rather than looking backward to the Medieval. (That's a nicer way of framing a criticism I read on another board against this recording, with the implication that their approach was wrongheaded.)

I don't know, since I don't think of that kind of thing when I listen.  And it is an odd comment to make since we don't know enough about how they sang in the Medieval period a/o/t the Renaissance, I think it all comes down to someone's ideas about period singing cut with a huge amount of personal taste.

What I like: its an all male group, sparse texture stressing a loose ensemble sound, a liquid vocal blend.  I guess some would object to the vibrato, but I like it since it fits with everything else they are doing.  Marco Longhini's group, Delitiae Musicae, is similar sounding and I like them too.  It is certainly not a tradition British sound.

However, not everything by them is to my liking.  They did incorporated instrumental ensembles in some of their recordings, which I detest.  Really, their Palestrina is what I've heard and must have made assumptions which might not apply to their Dufay, which if they used instruments, I wouldn't like.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on September 08, 2020, 04:59:07 AM
I don't know, since I don't think of that kind of thing when I listen.  And it is an odd comment to make since we don't know enough about how they sang in the Medieval period a/o/t the Renaissance, I think it all comes down to someone's ideas about period singing cut with a huge amount of personal taste.

What I like: its an all male group, sparse texture stressing a loose ensemble sound, a liquid vocal blend.  I guess some would object to the vibrato, but I like it since it fits with everything else they are doing.  Marco Longhini's group, Delitiae Musicae, is similar sounding and I like them too.  It is certainly not a tradition British sound.

However, not everything by them is to my liking.  They did incorporated instrumental ensembles in some of their recordings, which I detest.  Really, their Palestrina is what I've heard and must have made assumptions which might not apply to their Dufay, which if they used instruments, I wouldn't like.

One thing we do know about how they sang in Josquin's day: they didn't sound like Dietrich Fischer Dieskau.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Old San Antone on September 08, 2020, 05:04:34 AM
One thing we do know about how they sang in Josquin's day: they didn't sound like Dietrich Fischer Dieskau.

Neither do the singers for PCA.  They employ a "churchy" vocal style to my ears - similar to chant singing.  But we don't actually know much about how professional singers sang in Josquin's day, they might have sounded more like DFD than you may think.

 ;)
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on September 08, 2020, 05:13:13 AM
By the way I found something interesting yesterday, OVPP. Not sure quite what to make of it. I'm thinking more about Stockhausen than I am about Josquin right now.

(https://f4.bcbits.com/img/a3762844103_10.jpg)
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Old San Antone on September 08, 2020, 05:21:08 AM
Re: Pro Cantione Antiqua singing style

It may be an Italian thing they are doing.  Vartolo and Longhini employ the same style - all of whom I enjoy.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Mandryka on September 08, 2020, 05:52:39 AM
Ah, do Vartolo and Longhini sing Palestrina with vibrato through all the note? (Not a composer I’ve ever explored.)
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: Old San Antone on September 08, 2020, 06:04:07 AM
Ah, do Vartolo and Longhini sing Palestrina with vibrato through all the note? (Not a composer I’ve ever explored.)

Yes, it is a very similar sound to Pro Cantione Antiqua.  Odhecaton/Paolo de Col is another group that sings Palestrina in this style. 
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: vers la flamme on September 08, 2020, 01:53:56 PM
I've never truly explored Palestrina either—funny, he's one of the first Renaissance composers anyone ever hears about, but somehow my Renaissance music discoveries took me in a round about way in just about every other direction while somehow avoiding his music. I'm not sure if I'm really ready to take the plunge into his music but I would like to pick up a disc or two at least.

Pro Cantione Antiqua sounds good in this repertoire! Thanks for the rec, San Antone.

Back to Josquin, what does everyone think of the Tallis Scholars recordings? I know they're infamous for "smoothing out" dissonances, whatever that entails. I listened to some of the Pange Lingua mass they did and liked it.
Title: Re: Josquin Desprez (c1450–1455 - 27 Aug 1521)
Post by: deprofundis on September 15, 2020, 04:09:34 PM
I don't know if this was recommended but here my favorite Josquin album EVER!!!

For song's :

Josquin -Adieu Mes Amours -
Dulces Exuviae
Romain Bockler
Bor Zuljan

On Ricercar

Absolutely fantastic job, now perhaps your thinking ...oh well deprofundis opinion don't count he bias to Franco-Flemish Genius & Josquin, this release is truly fabulous, the singer is so darn good the lute player  is far out amazing, I'm speechless & breathless, to the mastery of execution, it's just perfect.

Now I hate to be the bad guy, I do, but it way way better than Josquin Adieu, mes amours- chanson ensemble Clément Janequin directed by Dominique Visse, sorry mister Visse.

For missa I would choose L'oiseau Lyre as a ressource oof joy and contemplation, it's that sweet. For missa Pangue Lingua Tallis Scholars good but Ensemble Metamorphoses Biscantur! sublime an of course very enchanting , for Missa Hercules dux once again Metamorphoses Biscantur! over de Labyrintho ensemble.

For Motets so far the old album released in 1986 Josquin Desprez Stabat Mater, Motets, La Chapelle Royale: Philippe Herreweghe  splendid.

These were my two cents on Josquin.

Your not morally obligated to like me, but reason should be my speaker over your dislike of people like me.  ;)

I'm not a Saint but if someone ask me what are thee best of (pull a name out of renaissance I can answer this) since  for 20 year I focus on this period.Goodbye stay well, in shape.

p.s I feel so darn exhausted since two year I find the cause, my bed is hard like a rock, I did not had a proper sleep in years always feel pain in the back when I woke up crap...good night all I know my problem wont change until I get a new mattrice