Post by: George on April 06, 2007, 05:00:36 AM
I'm shocked to see that every threads dedicated to Chopin are dead... and short!
He's my favorite piano composer, maybe even my favorite composer, no matter the discipline; his music just speaks to me. I want all of his music played by his "best" interpreters, starting with his Preludes. Witch pianist should i check out for these particular works?
NOTE: I prefer emotional interpretations over "technical fantasy"; the more faithful to the scores, the better.
Off the top of my head:
Preludes: Argerich for a white-hot, extrovert performance. Moravec for a more poetic, subdued take. Both are emotional, though here (and below) I don't know about which is truer to the score.
Nocturnes: Rubinstein's second set, comes on two CD's with a great recording of the Scherzos. Or Moravec, again for his gorgeous tone and better sonics. Or Arrau, who I enjoy most of all for his deep, expressive readings.
Ballades: I really like Perahia here in all four. I like Rubinstein for a more extrovert approach.
Mazurkas: Luisada is great, very romantic with tons of rubato. Rubinstein is good too.
Etudes: Richter's my favorite here, but he didn't record them all. Ashkenazy has more refinement, but still is intense. Perahia is a bit less intense, but very poetic.
Waltzes: I recently got Lipatti here and enjoy his playing. For better sound and great performance and value, Ashkenazy is excellent. His set includes the Preludes and the Schuerzos. This 2 CD set is a great intro to his Chopin, which I find solid, consistent and impressive. Haven't heard Rubinstein, but I know that the issue on RCA red seal is a better, clearer transfer than the one that appeared in the AR Collection.
Scherzos: Rubinstein, either coupled with his Nocturnes or his later version coupled with the Ballades. Richter has these recorded with many but not all of the Preludes on Regis.
Polonaises: Ashkenazy is the only one I have heard, but they are so good I haven't looked elsewhere.
Sonatas: For all three, I really love Andsnes. His are avail cheap too. Also, Ashkenazy's are coupled with his superb Etudes. Many other pianists have recorded individual sonatas, but I think its better to start with all three, especially since #1 is neglected.
Concertos: Argerich/Dutoit great performance and sonics.
Post by: Novi on April 06, 2007, 05:04:32 AM
To continue a discussion begun on the previous board:
Off the top of my head:
Preludes: Argerich for a white-hot, extrovert performance. Moravec for a more poetic, subdued take. Both are emotional, though here (and below) I don't know about which is truer to the score.
Nocturnes: Rubinstein's second set, comes on two CD's with a great recording of the Scherzos. Or Moravec, again for his gorgeous tone and better sonics. Or Arrau, who I enjoy most of all for his deep, expressive readings.
Ballades: I really like Perahia here in all four. I like Rubinstein for a more extrovert approach.
Mazurkas: Luisada is great, very romantic with tons of rubato. Rubinstein is good too.
Etudes: Richter's my favorite here, but he didn't record them all. Ashkenazy has more refinement, but still is intense. Perahia is a bit less intense, but very poetic.
Waltzes: I recently got Lipatti here and enjoy his playing. For better sound and great performance and value, Ashkenazy is excellent. His set includes the Preludes and the Schuerzos. This 2 CD set is a great intro to his Chopin, which I find solid, consistent and impressive. Haven't heard Rubinstein, but I know that the issue on RCA red seal is a better, clearer transfer than the one that appeared in the AR Collection.
Scherzos: Rubinstein, either coupled with his Nocturnes or his later version coupled with the Ballades. Richter has these recorded with many but not all of the Preludes on Regis.
Polonaises: Ashkenazy is the only one I have heard, but they are so good I haven't looked elsewhere.
Sonatas: For all three, I really love Andsnes. His are avail cheap too. Also, Ashkenazy's are coupled with his superb Etudes. Many other pianists have recorded individual sonatas, but I think its better to start with all three, especially since #1 is neglected.
Concertos: Argerich/Dutoit great performance and sonics.
No love for Cortot? :( ;)
Post by: George on April 06, 2007, 05:08:41 AM
No love for Cortot? :( ;)
I have a couple CD's on Naxos, the Waltzes and the Preludes/Impromptus. I don't know them well enough to recommend them, but they didn't wow me the first time I listened. :-\
Post by: aquablob on April 06, 2007, 06:50:04 AM
Preludes: Arrau (studio or live, they are both excellent), Gulda (a mixed bag, but he fares particularly well in the faster ones), Argerich, Richter (9 of them on the BBC Music Special Issue recording)
Nocturnes: Moravec, Rubinstein, and I've heard some of the recent live Gavrilov recordings and am seriously impressed. Pollini's set has its merits but if you don't like Pollini you won't like his nocturnes.
Ballades: Zimerman, Ashkenazy, Rubinstein, Richter, Gulda, Rachmaninov (#3), Michelangeli
Mazurkas: Rubinstein, Rachmaninov (in the two that he recorded)
Etudes: Pollini, Ashkenazy (specifically the early recording, although what I've heard of his later recording is top-notch as well), Cziffra, Richter (at least for those I've heard)
Waltzes: Rubinstein, Rachmaninov
Scherzi: Rubinstein, Ashkenazy, Argerich, Rachmaninov (#3), Richter
Polonaises: Rubinstein, Ashkenazy
Sonatas: Michelangeli, Rachmaninov, Rubinstein
Concertos: These are not really my favorite Chopin works, but I find Zimerman and Rubinstein perfectly satisfying here; Gulda is also excellent in the 1st.
As you can see, Rubinstein shows up more times than any other name. This is because I have yet to find a pianist that turns out as reliably superb Chopin nearly every time, covering almost his entire output. Ashkenazy, Rachmaninov, Michelangeli, Richter, and Zimerman are those that I've found to come the closest (although I must admit that my familiarity with Chopin pianists is not nearly as vast as someone's like sidoze's).
Post by: SimonGodders on April 06, 2007, 08:19:50 AM
Zhukov (Live), Pollini, Sokolov and Francois. Probably in that order :)
Post by: Don on April 06, 2007, 12:27:05 PM
Post by: Holden on April 06, 2007, 01:16:30 PM
Preludes - Argerich, Bolet, Orozco (wish I could find that on CD)
Etudes Op 10 - Gavrilov, Ashkenazy, Pollini, Anievas, Cortot
Etudes Op 25 - Ginsburg, Ashkenazy, Cziffra
Nocturnes - Rubinstein (1960s), Moravec
Polonaises - Ashkenazy
Mazurkas - Rubinstein
Ballades - Rubinstein
Scherzos - Rubinstein, Richter
Waltzes 1 to 19 - Ashkenazy, Anievas,
Sonata No 1 - Ashkenazy
Sonata no 2 - Rachmaninov, Rubinstein (Moscow '64), Pollini
Sonata No 3 - Kissin, Cortot, Argerich
Berceuse - Solomon
Post by: MishaK on April 06, 2007, 05:02:04 PM
Post by: Don on April 06, 2007, 09:07:36 PM
Post by: Drasko on April 06, 2007, 11:12:21 PM
Post by: SimonGodders on April 06, 2007, 11:28:34 PM
Post by: rubio on April 07, 2007, 02:01:06 AM
Polonaises: Rubinstein, Ashkenazy
How does Ashkenazy's Polonaises (Decca?) compare with Rubinstein? Do you refer to Rubinstein's classic 2nd mono set (Vol. 28) on RCA?
Post by: aquablob on April 07, 2007, 06:41:32 AM
How does Ashkenazy's Polonaises (Decca?) compare with Rubinstein? Do you refer to Rubinstein's classic 2nd mono set (Vol. 28) on RCA?
My Rubinstein is "The Chopin Collection" (11-disc RCA "Gold Seal" set); I can't be sure that it is the RCA recording of which you speak, but I imagine that it is. Either way, it's a hell of a set.
I can't give a blow-by-blow comparison of the polonaises at the moment, but I will say that I probably listen to the Ashkenazy (approximately) as frequently as I do the Rubinstein. Ashkenazy fares particularly well with the famous A Major ("Military") one, for what it's worth.
P.S. Have you heard Argerich in Op. 53?
Post by: George on April 07, 2007, 01:04:03 PM
Antone know if the Ultima release of Moravec's Nocturnes has better sound than the Electra Nonesuch?
Also, any idea where or if the Ultima is available? :-\
Post by: aquablob on April 07, 2007, 02:54:28 PM
Antone know if the Ultima release of Moravec's Nocturnes has better sound than the Electra Nonesuch?
Also, any idea where or if the Ultima is available? :-\
No, and no. Sorry George!
Post by: George on April 07, 2007, 03:11:30 PM
No, and no. Sorry George!
Its quite alright.
I just read through the rmcr archives for about an hour.
One guy says that the difference is negligible, another prefers the Nonesuch, as the Ultima to him is too top heavy and lacks that darker low end sound that the Nonesuch has.
Post by: Drasko on April 07, 2007, 03:19:25 PM
Also, any idea where or if the Ultima is available? :-\
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/6192701/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/6192701/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chopin-Noctunes-Fryderyk-Franciszek/dp/B000027ETF (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chopin-Noctunes-Fryderyk-Franciszek/dp/B000027ETF)
Sidoze was selling a copy way back, don't know if he sold it
Post by: George on April 07, 2007, 03:22:44 PM
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/6192701/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/6192701/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chopin-Noctunes-Fryderyk-Franciszek/dp/B000027ETF (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chopin-Noctunes-Fryderyk-Franciszek/dp/B000027ETF)
Sidoze was selling a copy way back, don't know if he sold it
I can't imagine why, this is some incrdibly gorgeous playing!
Thanks for the links. :)
Post by: Holden on April 07, 2007, 06:13:26 PM
How does Ashkenazy's Polonaises (Decca?) compare with Rubinstein? Do you refer to Rubinstein's classic 2nd mono set (Vol. 28) on RCA?
I prefer the Ashkenazy for two reasons. First, it contains all the Polonaises on 2CDs and there is some good music outside of the famous 7 which are normally recorded. I also think that Ashkenazy is the far better technician in these works yet creates the same sensation of 'dance rhythm' that Rubinstein does. To hear the way that VA plays the left hand octaves in the so called 'cavalry charge' section of the Op 53 is but one example of his affinity and feel for the rhythm of Chopin's works, just as Rubinstein had.
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 07, 2007, 07:27:14 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00000HY8B.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_SS500_.jpg)
Post by: George on April 07, 2007, 07:34:15 PM
Great Chopin recs...here's one to add to the list:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00000HY8B.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_SS500_.jpg)
Got that one!
I need to revisit...
Post by: rubio on April 08, 2007, 10:04:43 AM
Etudes: Richter's my favorite here, but he didn't record them all. Ashkenazy has more refinement, but still is intense. Perahia is a bit less intense, but very poetic.
Which discs would you recommend with Richter's Etudes?
Post by: George on April 08, 2007, 10:44:39 AM
Which discs would you recommend with Richter's Etudes?
This one:
http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Nocturnes-Polonaise-Scriabine-Sonatas/dp/B00020HD4Y/ref=sr_1_2/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1176061518&sr=1-2 (http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Nocturnes-Polonaise-Scriabine-Sonatas/dp/B00020HD4Y/ref=sr_1_2/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1176061518&sr=1-2)
Post by: SimonGodders on April 08, 2007, 10:51:48 AM
(http://www.trovar.com/str/covers/BBC/BBCL4021.jpg)
Chopin: Ballade no. 3 in A flat, opus 47;
Scherzo no. 4 in E, opus 54;
Mazurkas nos. 14 - 17, opus 24;
Barcarolle in F-sharp, opus 60;
Debussy: Preludes, Book 1 nos. 1 - 4, 6, 9, 5, 11, 7, 10;
L'Isle joyeuse;
Images, Book II, No. 1 "Cloches à travers les feuilles";
Prokofiev: Dance, opus 32, no. 1;
Chopin: Etude in E, opus 10 no. 3;
Etude in c, opus 10 no. 12
(London, Royal Festival Hall, 10 July 1961)
Chopin: Etude in C, opus 10 no. 1;
Etude in c sharp minor, opus 10 no. 4;
Etude in e flat, opus 10 no. 6;
Etude in A flat, opus 10 no. 10;
Etude in c, opus 10 no. 12
(London, Royal Festival Hall, 27 Jan 1963)
Debussy: Preludes, Book 2 complete;
Preludes, Book 1, no. 9 "La sérénade interrompue"
(the Maltings, Snape, 16 June 1967)
A great 2 CD set
:)
Post by: George on April 08, 2007, 10:54:49 AM
I agree, Simon. With that you get the stellar Debussy preludes as well!
However, the Praga etudes are spectacular, better than any other recording he's made of them IMO. :)
Post by: SimonGodders on April 08, 2007, 10:57:20 AM
I agree, Simon. With that you get the stellar Debussy preludes as well!
However, the Praga etudes are spectacular, better than any other recording he's made of them IMO. :)
Yeah the Debussy is amazing, buckets of atmosphere...
The Praga - do you mean the one with the Scriabin? I always found the Chopin on there to be a little sloppy....
Post by: George on April 08, 2007, 11:01:49 AM
The Praga - do you mean the one with the Scriabin? I always found the Chopin on there to be a little sloppy....
That's the one. In spots, but the Op.25/11, my goodness...worth the price of the disc alone.
Post by: SimonGodders on April 08, 2007, 11:03:09 AM
That's the one. In spots, but the Op.25/11, my goodness...worth the price of the disc alone.
Gonna' go and give it a spin, back in a jiffy.... ;)
Post by: SimonGodders on April 08, 2007, 11:47:25 AM
That's the one. In spots, but the Op.25/11, my goodness...worth the price of the disc alone.
Not bad :P
A quick check reveals I have these as comparison:
Lhevinne, Sokolov, Pollini, Cziffra, Cortot (1934), Ashkenazy (Melodiya), Gavrilov and Van Cliburn.
I've just done a rather inconclusive check on them all and found I really like the Richter (who would have been 73 when he recorded these, wow!!!), the Cziffra (very aggressive), Lhevinne and Sokolov.
Not so impressed with the Cortot, Gavrilov and Pollini (that surprised me)
But a toss-up between Richter and Cziffra for the top I think...
Post by: George on April 08, 2007, 11:56:47 AM
I thought that's what we were discussing.
Post by: George on April 08, 2007, 12:04:56 PM
But a toss-up between Richter and Cziffra for the top I think...
I just gave Cziffra a spin.
I think Richter begins with more fire, but Cziffra has a more powerful ending. My goodness, he might even be better.
I agree, a tie it is. :)
Post by: SimonGodders on April 08, 2007, 12:05:29 PM
So you prefer the BBC disc perf to the Praga? :-\
I thought that's what we were discussing.
The Op.25/11 isn't on the BBC Disc, I was just comparing the Richter/Praga Op.25/11 with all the other Op.25/11's I have... :-\
Post by: rubio on April 08, 2007, 12:16:42 PM
Post by: George on April 08, 2007, 12:21:23 PM
The Op.25/11 isn't on the BBC Disc, I was just comparing the Richter/Praga Op.25/11 with all the other Op.25/11's I have... :-\
I saw that afterwards, but originally I thought you were going to check out the playing on the Praga to compare to the level of playing on the BBC.
Post by: George on April 08, 2007, 12:21:42 PM
Thank you for this discussion. I ordered the Praga disc as they tend to go OOP. And if the Richter 25/11 is as good as Cziffra's I really look forward to receiving this disc! :)
Sweet! :)
Post by: orbital on April 08, 2007, 02:34:58 PM
Ballades: Ashkenazy, Barere.
Etudes: Ciani, Gavrilov, Cortot, Sokolov(op25)
Impromptus: Rubinstein, Sokolov
Mazurkas: Luisada Complete set, Sofronitsky, Kapell
Nocturnes: Tipo, Rubinstein, Moravec, Ciani
Barcarolle: Arrau, Cherkassy, Freire
Fantasie op 49 : Arrau, Cherkassy,
PS 2: Brand, Ashkenazy, Sokolov
PS 3: Sokolov, Chekassy
Preludes: Zhukov, Ashkenazy, Bolet, Pletnev, Sofronitsky
Waltzes: Rubinstein, Ashkenazy, Cortot
PC's: too many to name :P
Post by: orbital on April 08, 2007, 02:35:29 PM
Got that one!I thought your avatar was Cherkassy :D
I need to revisit...
Post by: George on April 08, 2007, 03:09:25 PM
Impromptus: Rubinstein...
Waltzes: Rubinstein...
Sweet! I got these last night! :)
I thought your avatar was Cherkassy :D
No, It's Moravec. :P
Post by: rubio on April 09, 2007, 11:31:20 AM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00019EYNO.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)
Has anybody here heard this disc? It seems very tempting. Are the Chopin Ballades here from 1928-1930?
http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Casadesus-Chopin-Schumann-S%C3%A9verac/dp/B00002EPNJ/ref=sr_1_1/103-6086389-5715826?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1176150600&sr=1-1
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00002EPNJ.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)
Post by: aquablob on April 09, 2007, 02:04:15 PM
I just listened to Casadesus' studio recording of the Chopin Ballades from 1950, and I liked them a lot!
I would love to hear these.
Post by: George on April 09, 2007, 02:29:49 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00002EPNJ.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)
Funny, I bought a Pearl Casadesus CD recently, but it wasn't that one. Mine has Beethoven, Haydn and Scarlatti. I haven't opened yet.
Can anyone report on his Chopin?
Post by: Poetdante on April 11, 2007, 06:38:11 AM
Sweet! I got these last night! :)
No, It's Moravec. :P
Moravec's Nocturne is my best choice~!
You have a really good picture. :)
My favorite piece of Chopin is Prelude op.28
Sokolov, Pollini, Cortot, Francois, Kissin - Great performances.
I've heard Stephen Vladar's playing recently, that was not bad.
Post by: George on April 11, 2007, 07:31:41 AM
Moravec's Nocturne is my best choice~!
You have a really good picture. :)
;)
Quote
My favorite piece of Chopin is Prelude op.28
Sokolov, Pollini, Cortot, Francois, Kissin - Great performances.
I've heard Stephen Vladar's playing recently, that was not bad.
Wow! I have about seven sets and only one of yours- the Cortot!
How do you like the Francois set, if you have it?
Post by: Poetdante on April 11, 2007, 08:03:08 AM
How do you like the Francois set, if you have it?
I don't have it yet, but I heard it.
This is a very melancholy and unique playing.
If Chopin lives today, he will love this playing, in my aspect. :)
Cortot is a 'MASTER', isn't it?
Post by: George on April 11, 2007, 08:30:21 AM
Cortot is a 'MASTER', isn't it?
I know that he is very well revered!
I need to hear my recording some more before I decide how much I like him.
I sure love his Schumann though. :)
Post by: orbital on April 11, 2007, 01:04:54 PM
Funny, I bought a Pearl Casadesus CD recently, but it wasn't that one. Mine has Beethoven, Haydn and Scarlatti. I haven't opened yet.I have no Casadesus CD's but I will be watching this :
Can anyone report on his Chopin?
http://www.netflix.com/Movie/Casadesus_First_Family_of_the_Piano/70023990?trkid=90529
DVD next week. I will report back if you are interested.
Post by: orbital on April 11, 2007, 01:16:48 PM
How do you like the Francois set, if you have it?
I have his preludes. I like Francois in Chopin, in general. But his style is very straightforward, not a trace of poeticism (for lack of a (better) word) to be found. I guess it is one of those recordings that's just as easy to hate.
Post by: George on April 11, 2007, 02:48:08 PM
I have no Casadesus CD's but I will be watching this :
http://www.netflix.com/Movie/Casadesus_First_Family_of_the_Piano/70023990?trkid=90529
DVD next week. I will report back if you are interested.
Yes please! :)
Post by: rubio on April 22, 2007, 07:49:38 AM
Post by: orbital on April 23, 2007, 05:46:30 AM
So what is the best recording of "Introduction and Polonaise brillante for cello & piano in C major, Op. 3"? I have just heard Argerich/Rostropovich which was really good. Any other alternatives?I must say I never heard that piece. But for other Chopin Chamber pieces (the Sonata, the trio and the Grand Duo) my first choice is this one from Hungaroton:
(http://www.hungaroton.hu/albumok/693a.jpg)
Post by: Steve on April 23, 2007, 08:14:13 AM
(http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/B0000028U6.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)
Post by: rubio on May 01, 2007, 11:00:40 AM
Post by: Michel on May 01, 2007, 11:04:41 AM
Sidoze may also be able to help, as he is great too.
Post by: Don on May 01, 2007, 11:19:20 AM
For anyone who actually wants to know about Chopin, I would suggest speaking to Herman, who no longers posts here, for he is an expert.
Sidoze may also be able to help, as he is great too.
I doubt they are the only two knowledgeable about Chopin and his discography. Besides, with Herman long-gone and Sidoze usually gone, help from them might be elusive.
Post by: George on May 01, 2007, 11:42:11 AM
I wonder what do you think about the Ballades played by Cortot? Should I sample them? And if so, which recording/CD?
If they came out on Naxos, that's where I'd get them from. MDT online has some Cortot on Naxos, last I checked. I own the Preludes and the Waltzes, but would need to hear them again before giving an informed opinion on them.
BTW, who else do you have in the Ballades?
Post by: rubio on May 01, 2007, 12:02:00 PM
If they came out on Naxos, that's where I'd get them from. MDT online has some Cortot on Naxos, last I checked. I own the Preludes and the Waltzes, but would need to hear them again before giving an informed opinion on them.
BTW, who else do you have in the Ballades?
So far, I have Perahia, Cziffra, Casadesus and Moiseiwitsch (Appian) + different individual recordings spreaded around. I definately like the Perahia recording best, but some aspects of the Cziffra and Casadesus are also exciting. I see that they have the below 1929 set of the Ballades at MDT, but I know he re-recorded them in 1933 (so I wonder which is the best).
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/8111245.jpg)
Post by: Steve on May 01, 2007, 12:55:46 PM
Post by: George on May 01, 2007, 02:32:55 PM
So far, I have Perahia, Cziffra, Casadesus and Moiseiwitsch (Appian) + different individual recordings spreaded around. I definately like the Perahia recording best, but some aspects of the Cziffra and Casadesus are also exciting. I see that they have the below 1929 set of the Ballades at MDT, but I know he re-recorded them in 1933 (so I wonder which is the best).
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/8111245.jpg)
I've read that 1929 are no better than the ones from 1933. However, the same source says that his Ballades are without the high artistic merits of Rubinstein, Perahia and Wild.
Another source, David Dubal, says he likes Ax, Cherkassky, Davidovich, Hofmann, Zimerman and Rubinstein. He only likes Cortot's #1.
I say get the Ballades (coupled with the scherzos) by Rubinstein.
Post by: George on May 01, 2007, 02:33:34 PM
How much of the Chopin ouevre did Cziffra record?
Not sure, but I know that there is much in that bargain EMI box! :o
Post by: Holden on May 01, 2007, 02:37:57 PM
How much of the Chopin ouevre did Cziffra record?
Quite a bit including:
Etudes Op 10 and Op 25
All the Waltzes
The main Polonaises
Sonatas 2 and 3
All can be found here
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B00008LLIS/sr=1-4/qid=1178062352/ref=dp_image_0/103-4338777-1853443?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music&qid=1178062352&sr=1-4)
Post by: rubio on May 08, 2007, 09:57:57 AM
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Recordings-Vol-Johannes-Brahms/dp/B00007FKPZ/ref=sr_1_1/103-6086389-5715826?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178650535&sr=1-1
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/41S6VPVE9CL._AA240_.jpg)
Post by: Drasko on May 08, 2007, 10:02:01 AM
Post by: George on May 08, 2007, 10:59:27 AM
Yes
Who did the transfers? MOT?
Post by: SimonGodders on May 08, 2007, 11:20:11 AM
Post by: orbital on May 08, 2007, 11:30:05 AM
YesDo you know how it compares to the Pearl set?
Post by: Drasko on May 08, 2007, 11:31:33 AM
Post by: orbital on May 08, 2007, 11:33:18 AM
Post by: George on May 08, 2007, 11:54:35 AM
ok :D
wait
is
this
the
minimalist
thread?
;D
Post by: helios on May 09, 2007, 12:11:42 AM
Post by: rubio on May 27, 2007, 05:44:57 AM
Post by: SimonGodders on May 27, 2007, 06:05:13 AM
(http://www.emusic.com/img/album/108/011/10801122_155_155.jpeg)
Leschenko
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/513XECCW04L._SS500_.jpg)
Beautiful and talented, now there's a catch... ;) :-*
Also like Rubinstein's from 1950, haven't heard the earlier one.
Post by: SimonGodders on May 27, 2007, 06:06:57 AM
Post by: Drasko on May 27, 2007, 06:36:57 AM
Post by: rubio on May 27, 2007, 06:55:12 AM
Does the Michelangeli performance on that DVD exist on CD? Or maybe I should just go for my first piano DVD.
Post by: SimonGodders on May 27, 2007, 06:57:36 AM
I found out that I already have the Sirota, but I haven't listened to it yet.
Well get listening then! It's bloody good!
;)
Post by: Drasko on May 27, 2007, 08:23:42 AM
Does the Michelangeli performance on that DVD exist on CD?
It does but that particular performance might prove difficult to find
Quote
Turin 1962 - Cetra CDE 1021, Classic Editions CO 3538, Ermitage ERM 122, Music and Arts CD-924
Simon can you link to Leschenko disc, I couldn't find it
Post by: Bonehelm on May 27, 2007, 09:55:12 AM
(http://www.andante.com/images/Articles/YundiLiChopinB200.jpg)
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/July02/Chopin_Yundi_Li.jpg)
some say he's not musical..but I don't get how. For me, he's both emotionally and technically excellent.
Post by: SimonGodders on May 27, 2007, 10:02:20 AM
Simon can you link to Leschenko disc, I couldn't find it
My pleasure:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00009ILC1/202-4351466-9240634
A storming recital, can see why Argerich likes her, bit of a 'chip off the old block' ;)
Post by: rubio on May 28, 2007, 03:41:21 AM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41B0R2TZTRL._AA240_.jpg)
Post by: Drasko on May 28, 2007, 06:30:41 AM
My pleasure:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00009ILC1/202-4351466-9240634
A storming recital, can see why Argerich likes her, bit of a 'chip off the old block' ;)
Thanks, ordered a copy though it'll take bit of time until it reaches me (via London).
Haven't heard her before and unfortunately missed her playing Chopin's E minor here few weeks ago. Opinions on her playing seem to be quite devided and that always makes me curious to hear for myself.
Post by: SimonGodders on May 28, 2007, 08:27:19 AM
Here's The Gramophone's take on her debut CD:
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/gramofilereview.asp?reviewID=200213457&mediaID=210913&issue=Reviewed%3A+Gramophone+11%2F2004
Shame you missed her...
Post by: George on May 28, 2007, 09:24:59 AM
No worries.
Here's The Gramophone's take on her debut CD:
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/gramofilereview.asp?reviewID=200213457&mediaID=210913&issue=Reviewed%3A+Gramophone+11%2F2004
Shame you missed her...
Sounds good, Simon. :)
Post by: orbital on May 28, 2007, 09:48:38 AM
Haven't heard her before and unfortunately missed her playing Chopin's E minor here few weeks ago.Shame on you $:)
Post by: Drasko on May 28, 2007, 10:52:19 AM
Shame on you $:)
I'm completely innocent Mr. Policeman 0:) it's classic case of a bad mojo
Over last few seasons I missed Berezovsky, Lugansky, Leschenko and couple local boys & gals playing them.
Nowdays when I see a Chopin Concerto on program I don't even have to check, I know I'll have to be somewhere else that evening.
Post by: orbital on May 28, 2007, 11:41:52 AM
I'm completely innocent Mr. Policeman 0:) it's classic case of a bad mojo;D
Over last few seasons I missed Berezovsky, Lugansky, Leschenko and couple local boys & gals playing them.
Nowdays when I see a Chopin Concerto on program I don't even have to check, I know I'll have to be somewhere else that evening.
Don't mind me, the rant is coming from someone who goes to recitals/concerts waaaay less than he should/could :-[ :-[
Post by: Maciek on May 29, 2007, 02:45:17 PM
Post by: sidoze on May 30, 2007, 11:13:30 AM
Has anybody here heard this disc? It seems very tempting. Are the Chopin Ballades here from 1928-1930?
http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Casadesus-Chopin-Schumann-S%C3%A9verac/dp/B00002EPNJ/ref=sr_1_1/103-6086389-5715826?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1176150600&sr=1-1
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00002EPNJ.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)
I had it and was disappointed. The playing is clear and straightforward without much personal emphasis. I don't think they reached boiling point.
I would try Bolet for the Grande Polonaise thing.
Post by: Maciek on May 30, 2007, 12:39:35 PM
(http://www.polskienagrania.com.pl/okladki/184.jpg) (http://www.polskienagrania.com.pl/okladki/801.jpg)
These contain the best performances of mazurkas from the Chopin Piano Competition, divided chronologically into 2 volumes (1927-1955 and 1960-1985). Featured pianists are: Sztompka, Uninski, Żak, Czerny-Stefańska, Fou Tsong, Irina Zaritzkaya, Martha Argerich, Garrick Ohlsson, Krystian Zimerman, Dang Thai Son, Ewa Pobłocka, Marc Laforet. Very cheap too - about 15 PLN (5 USD, 4 EUR) per disc. I don't have these particular discs but have most of the recordings in other couplings (Polskie Nagrania have an irritating way of re-releasing the same stuff over and over again in countless guises).
Post by: George on May 30, 2007, 02:06:36 PM
Since recordings of the mazurkas came up in another thread ( ;)) I'd like to mention a set of 2 discs:
(http://www.polskienagrania.com.pl/okladki/184.jpg) (http://www.polskienagrania.com.pl/okladki/801.jpg)
These contain the best performances of mazurkas from the Chopin Piano Competition, divided chronologically into 2 volumes (1927-1955 and 1960-1985). Featured pianists are: Sztompka, Uninski, ?ak, Czerny-Stefa?ska, Fou Tsong, Irina Zaritzkaya, Martha Argerich, Garrick Ohlsson, Krystian Zimerman, Dang Thai Son, Ewa Pob?ocka, Marc Laforet. Very cheap too - about 15 PLN (5 USD, 4 EUR) per disc. I don't have these particular discs but have most of the recordings in other couplings (Polskie Nagrania have an irritating way of re-releasing the same stuff over and over again in countless guises).
Where are those available?
Post by: Maciek on May 30, 2007, 02:33:48 PM
http://www.gigant.pl/html/produkt.asp?p=qqmjghqfcqwedmpjllha (http://www.gigant.pl/html/produkt.asp?p=qqmjghqfcqwedmpjllha)
http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,36664.html (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,36664.html)
(at least you can listen to samples on the second of these sites)
I'll look around a little more and let you know if I find anything... If you want to do a search yourself, the catalog numbers are PNCD 006 and PNCD 007.
Post by: George on May 30, 2007, 02:38:56 PM
Good question, George! Except for the site of the label itself (http://www.polskienagrania.com.pl/pl.php?o=big&big=801) I can't seem to find the second volume anywhere - and you wouldn't want to order from the directly because there's no way any rational being could ever fathom their ordering procedure. All I've come up with is 2 different places where you can get volume number 1:
http://www.gigant.pl/html/produkt.asp?p=qqmjghqfcqwedmpjllha (http://www.gigant.pl/html/produkt.asp?p=qqmjghqfcqwedmpjllha)
http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,36664.html (http://www.merlin.com.pl/frontend/browse/product/4,36664.html)
(at least you can listen to samples on the second of these sites)
I'll look around a little more and let you know if I find anything... If you want to do a search yourself, the catalog numbers are PNCD 006 and PNCD 007.
Thanks, I am not likely to buy in the near future so please don't spend too much time on it.
Post by: Lilas Pastia on May 30, 2007, 06:03:01 PM
Post by: George on May 30, 2007, 06:38:00 PM
A well-intentioned person gave me a cd of Chopin pieces played by Paderewski. They're from his 1906 Welte-Mignon rolls. What should I expect?
What I have heard of piano rolls does little for me, what I have heard of Paderewski does about the same. I just find him too fast, but YMMV of course. :)
Post by: Maciek on May 30, 2007, 10:43:47 PM
A well-intentioned person gave me a cd of Chopin pieces played by Paderewski. They're from his 1906 Welte-Mignon rolls. What should I expect?
That depends. I hear there are 2 different "transfers" (maybe more?) and one of them (the Polish one) is abominable - very bad sound and the playing sounds mechanical. The other one is supposed to be much better (more "human sounding"). I rather like his "real" recordings - not always perfectly precise but still I like it. I have him playing 2 pieces (in 1924 and 1930, on 78 r.p.m.) on this "The Golden Age of Polish Pianists" disc (mine comes from a "Complete Works" set so it doesn't have a cover, just a cardboard sleeve):
(http://www.polskienagrania.com.pl/okladki/183.jpg)
I'm not sure but there might be even more on the "Moonlight Sonata" soundtrack - don't remember. I love Paderewski as composer, BTW.
Post by: Lilas Pastia on May 31, 2007, 02:54:38 PM
Uggh.
Post by: Maciek on May 31, 2007, 02:59:21 PM
BTW, what you actually got is a free CD bundled with the newspaper Rzeczpospolita - but I think that's exactly the same as the official Dux release anyway. Unfortunately...?
Post by: Lilas Pastia on May 31, 2007, 03:10:44 PM
Post by: Maciek on May 31, 2007, 03:15:29 PM
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 01, 2007, 03:14:05 PM
First of all, the dates of those rolls are 1906. This is hard to believe as everything sounds very clear and with no distortion. Sounds better actually than many Horowitz recordings form the thirties. Very light bass though, so it probably doesn't begin to give an accurate image of Paderewski's tone.
Secondly, the most striking aspect of his playing is the incredibly heavy use of rubato. I'm not a pianist, but what I hear is a systematic doubling of a note, being sounded on the left hand first, followed by the right hand, almost a 2-note arpeggio. If someone can come to my rescue and describe it adequately, I would appreciate.
This was SO different from anything else I knew that I compared one by one all the pieces with other versions to try to understand what he was aiming at. There is simply no comparison. All others (Moiseiwitsch, Bunin, François, Magaloff, Rubinstein) play the music directly, without that suffocating mannerism. The only work I heard that seemed to inhabit a legitimate artistic world was the Nocturne op. 37 # 2. The others seemed to have been artificially equipped with a load of extra notes, like a mother sending her kid to school out with 4 layers of unnecessary clothing ("Ma, it's not cold outside!").
Anyhow, there is certainly a historic interest to listen to these interpretations, for even by the thirties those habits seem to have died for good. There's no denying that a lot of feeling and authority come through. Definitely of great interest, in spite of the very controversial playing.
Post by: Maciek on June 01, 2007, 03:30:47 PM
Post by: Novi on June 01, 2007, 03:35:48 PM
I listened to the Paderewski recording - twice.
Secondly, the most striking aspect of his playing is the incredibly heavy use of rubato. I'm not a pianist, but what I hear is a systematic doubling of a note, being sounded on the left hand first, followed by the right hand, almost a 2-note arpeggio. If someone can come to my rescue and describe it adequately, I would appreciate.
I think you're referring to desynchronisation, when the right hand comes in just a fraction after the left? It was a common way of playing up until about the 30s, as you say.
I'm sure the piano experts will know a lot more about it though :).
Post by: sidoze on June 02, 2007, 05:53:14 AM
I think you're referring to desynchronisation, when the right hand comes in just a fraction after the left? It was a common way of playing up until about the 30s, as you say.
Michelangeli and Bolet used this technique regularly. If memory serves, there's the famous example of Michelangeli using it for the slow movement of the Ravel PC. I think this technique works especially well in certain slow pieces by Chopin, and you can hear Bolet use it subtly to enhance the pathos of the Chopin 3rd sonata Largo (on Marston). He was also well-known for doubling bass notes, something he did in the final prelude of op. 28 (Carnegie Hall - GPOC). I've always liked this sort of personal license, especially for composers who wrote heart-on-sleeve music like Chopin and Schumann (that's how I hear it anyway). In fact I usually feel there's something lacking in the interpretation if a pianist doesn't personalise it in a manner like this.
Post by: Drasko on July 06, 2007, 06:48:42 AM
op.28 & op.62
Could be interesting
Post by: sidoze on July 06, 2007, 09:53:27 AM
Rather amusing it says "complete preludes" without op. 45
Post by: sidoze on July 06, 2007, 10:40:05 AM
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 06, 2007, 10:44:09 AM
Post by: Holden on July 06, 2007, 11:21:39 AM
(http://cover.deutschegrammophon.com/s300x300/4776592.jpg)
op.28 & op.62
It could also be very short. Most versions of the Op 28 Preludes range around the 45 minute mark. Add in Op 62 and you've still got about 25 minutes of CD left to fill. These would have to be exceptional for me to buy them.
Could be interesting
Post by: orbital on July 06, 2007, 11:32:50 AM
how about this for novel Chopin: 51 mazurkas for solo guitar? http://cdbaby.com/cd/stephenaron4IT's out of stock ::)
I am not against these novelties as long as they are made in good taste
Post by: Drasko on July 06, 2007, 11:38:26 AM
IT's out of stock ::)
I am not against these novelties as long as they are made in good taste
A least you can get Scarlatti on accordion until they re-stock Chopin on guitar
http://www.amazon.com/felice-Accordion-Music-Domenico-Scarlatti/dp/B0000525L7 (http://www.amazon.com/felice-Accordion-Music-Domenico-Scarlatti/dp/B0000525L7)
Post by: orbital on July 06, 2007, 11:46:20 AM
A least you can get Scarlatti on accordion until they re-stock Chopin on guitarI have my eyes on this one:
http://www.amazon.com/felice-Accordion-Music-Domenico-Scarlatti/dp/B0000525L7 (http://www.amazon.com/felice-Accordion-Music-Domenico-Scarlatti/dp/B0000525L7)
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/513J56F992L._AA240_.jpg)
Although an Equal Tempered Accordion may work wonders. Just listen to Edith
Post by: sidoze on July 12, 2007, 05:42:09 AM
http://preview.tinyurl.com/ysthhu
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 13, 2007, 11:09:30 AM
Post by: Don on July 13, 2007, 11:21:07 AM
I'd welcome comments on Krystian Zimerman's old DG disc of the 4 Ballades, Barcarolle and f minor Fantasy. Thanks! :)
I'm only familiar with his Barcarolle performance. Although lovingly shaped, I don't find it distinctive or particularly rapturous. So, nothing special but the Ballades and Fantasy might be better.
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 13, 2007, 04:29:45 PM
Post by: George on July 13, 2007, 04:32:39 PM
Thanks. I happen to find the Ballades and Barcarolle some of Chopin's most important compositions. I've heard the disc, but can't make up my mind about Ballades 1 and 2.
I agree.
There's things I like about it and things I don't.
(Ducks to the oncoming mudslingers) Perahia remains my favorite as a set.
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 13, 2007, 05:27:09 PM
On that subject, here's an interesting article from Polish Music Newsletter (http://www.madeleineforte.com/interview02.html).
Post by: rubio on July 15, 2007, 01:07:39 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/611PBM4Z1WL._AA240_.jpg)
Post by: sidoze on July 15, 2007, 01:18:58 PM
Post by: BorisG on July 15, 2007, 03:31:29 PM
Post by: orbital on July 15, 2007, 04:19:27 PM
I see that I don't have a set of the Scherzos yet, and I'm thinking about one of Rubinstein's set. So should I go for the 1932, 1949 or the 1959 set? This 1959 set looks mighty tempting:between the 1932 and 1959, I'd say definitely 1939.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/611PBM4Z1WL._AA240_.jpg)
But I prefer Pogo as well.
Post by: George on July 15, 2007, 04:22:43 PM
between the 1932 and 1959, I'd say definitely 1939.
But I prefer Pogo as well.
Did you mean 1959?
Post by: orbital on July 15, 2007, 04:24:05 PM
Did you mean 1959?No sorry, I mean 1932
Post by: sidoze on July 16, 2007, 04:27:39 AM
I would reach for Pogo before Rube, but reach for Demidenko before either.
I love Demidenko but his recording is just too eccentric for a first disc IMO. Of course so is Pogorelich, but I don't think he has such a penchant for inverting dynamics as Demidenko has.
Post by: BorisG on July 16, 2007, 07:15:11 AM
Post by: sidoze on July 16, 2007, 12:46:11 PM
Actually here's the tracklisting.
Rondo in C minor Op 1
Rondo in E flat major Op 16
Rondo in C major Op 73
Barcarolle in F sharp Op 60
Polonaise No 1 in D minor Op 71
Andante Spianato & Grande Polonaise Brillante in E flat major Op 22
AGPL / 1-010
Post by: BorisG on July 16, 2007, 09:57:28 PM
We'll have to part ways on this. Demidenko is one of my favourite pianists and he's a very caring and thoughtful man, but I just don't find his Chopin convincing, nor natural-sounding for that matter. It's always interesting, but that's a different matter (Mustonen is always interesting too...). Do you like any of his other Chopin recordings? He's just released a Chopin disc on AGPL which I haven't heard yet and probably won't in fact as it's made up of some early works (Rondos) and a few others I'm not desperate to hear right now.
Actually here's the tracklisting.
Rondo in C minor Op 1
Rondo in E flat major Op 16
Rondo in C major Op 73
Barcarolle in F sharp Op 60
Polonaise No 1 in D minor Op 71
Andante Spianato & Grande Polonaise Brillante in E flat major Op 22
AGPL / 1-010
I like his three Hyperion solo Chopin. I have not heard anything on AGPL.
Parting ways is quite alright, my friend. I enjoyed the time we had together.
Post by: Bonehelm on July 18, 2007, 01:17:15 AM
Post by: orbital on July 18, 2007, 06:40:08 AM
He also does three etudes here. The op10 aminor one is played unusually slow for some reason which more or less kills it for me. The other two (butterfly and winter wind) are played quite well. But the thing is there is not much to remember them by except the note by note interpretation.
Overall the CD is not bad, if you are desperately in need of a decent Andante Spianato interpretation at least :)
Post by: orbital on September 04, 2007, 09:40:45 AM
http://www.amazon.com/Arthur-Rubinstein-plays-Chopin-Box/dp/B000002S59/ref=sr_1_13/102-0015196-3925745?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1188930993&sr=1-13
Post by: Que on September 04, 2007, 09:46:39 AM
Rubinstein's Chopin EMI set is now on deep discount at Amazon at $29.00
http://www.amazon.com/Arthur-Rubinstein-plays-Chopin-Box/dp/B000002S59/ref=sr_1_13/102-0015196-3925745?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1188930993&sr=1-13
But the thing is that the transfers of the same recordings on RCA's Rubinstein Edition are far better!
And many of these are also available on Naxos - also in better transfers than on EMI.
Q
Post by: orbital on September 04, 2007, 10:46:22 AM
But the thing is that the transfers of the same recordings on RCA's Rubinstein Edition are far better!Never heard the EMI myself, everythhing Rubinstein I have is on RCA. But I thought the price point could be a good incentive particularly since these are the 30s recordings. But if similar prices are available with better transfers then no need to bother of course.
And many of these are also available on Naxos - also in better transfers than on EMI.
Q
Post by: Drasko on September 04, 2007, 11:18:57 AM
But if similar prices are available with better transfers then no need to bother of course.
Maybe, maybe not. Concertos with Barbirolli are difficult to find these days (RCA Rubinstein Collection vol.5)
Post by: George on September 04, 2007, 04:37:45 PM
Rubinstein's Chopin EMI set is now on deep discount at Amazon at $29.00
http://www.amazon.com/Arthur-Rubinstein-plays-Chopin-Box/dp/B000002S59/ref=sr_1_13/102-0015196-3925745?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1188930993&sr=1-13
Very tempting. But EMI is usually terrible with historical recordings. :-\
Post by: sidoze on September 04, 2007, 11:28:13 PM
Post by: George on September 05, 2007, 04:14:47 AM
the Naxos transfers should be avoided as well. sources weren't good enough
Thanks.
Post by: George on September 05, 2007, 04:59:13 AM
Never heard the EMI myself, everythhing Rubinstein I have is on RCA. But I thought the price point could be a good incentive particularly since these are the 30s recordings. But if similar prices are available with better transfers then no need to bother of course.
Your PM inbox is full. :-[
Post by: George on January 27, 2008, 06:35:36 AM
http://www.vaimusic.com/CD/1002.htm (http://www.vaimusic.com/CD/1002.htm)
8)
Post by: Drasko on January 27, 2008, 11:19:51 AM
I think that a number of you will be interested in this:
http://www.vaimusic.com/CD/1002.htm (http://www.vaimusic.com/CD/1002.htm)
8)
Yes, indeed I am interested. Tried placing an order for it few days ago and after entering the address their website came up with a message - No valid shipping methods are available for your order.
Call me martian from now on :P
Post by: bassio on January 27, 2008, 01:25:56 PM
I think that a number of you will be interested in this:
http://www.vaimusic.com/CD/1002.htm (http://www.vaimusic.com/CD/1002.htm)
8)
Indeed George.
I cannot speak highly of this disc (I have the old one). Hofmann changed how I look at these works.
Every note is crystal clear, and thus the runs are breathtaking. I guess his secret is the judicious use of the pedal. (Which nowadays is abused in Chopin). Listen to Hofmann or Rachmaninoff .. you will notice that they are masters of the pedal.
But I am skeptical of any better sound quality they can achieve on this new disc. Maybe they found better masters.
Post by: George on February 03, 2008, 06:46:39 AM
Fiorentino Plays Chopin 1959 (http://rapidshare.com/files/88629595/fiorchop.rar)
8)
Post by: Brian on February 03, 2008, 08:54:23 AM
Rubinstein's Chopin EMI set is now on deep discount at Amazon at $29.00Why would you bother with that (http://www.amazon.com/Arthur-Rubinstein-plays-Chopin-Box/dp/B000002S59/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1202057540&sr=1-5) when you could get this (http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Collection-Fryderyk/dp/B000026OW3/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1202057540&sr=1-3)? I'm in the market for great Chopin performances which are as cheap as possible, so comments appreciated. :)
http://www.amazon.com/Arthur-Rubinstein-plays-Chopin-Box/dp/B000002S59/ref=sr_1_13/102-0015196-3925745?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1188930993&sr=1-13
Post by: George on February 03, 2008, 09:01:43 AM
Why would you bother with that (http://www.amazon.com/Arthur-Rubinstein-plays-Chopin-Box/dp/B000002S59/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1202057540&sr=1-5) when you could get this (http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Collection-Fryderyk/dp/B000026OW3/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1202057540&sr=1-3)? I'm in the market for great Chopin performances which are as cheap as possible, so comments appreciated. :)
Some like "that" which are earlier performances, better than "this," his stereo late recordings.
Post by: Brian on February 03, 2008, 09:03:02 AM
Some like "that" which are earlier performances, better than "this," his stereo late recordings.Aha. Would I be particularly disadvantaged if I bought "this" instead of "that"?
Post by: George on February 03, 2008, 09:26:28 AM
Aha. Would I be particularly disadvantaged if I bought "this" instead of "that"?
I can't say. I only have this, so I can't even say for myself. I suggest you sample this and that and decide which suits you.
Post by: Brian on February 03, 2008, 09:31:38 AM
I can't say. I only have this, so I can't even say for myself. I suggest you sample this and that and decide which suits you.Okay. Thanks :) I presume you enjoy this?
Also,
Oh dear, your post count is 4999, go spend your 5000th post on something cooler. 8)
Post by: George on February 03, 2008, 09:36:46 AM
Okay. Thanks :) I presume you enjoy this?
Also,thisis getting rather silly. :D
Oh dear, your post count is 4999, go spend your 5000th post on something cooler. 8)
Nothing is cooler than helping a friend. 8)
BTW, I do love the later set, It's an incredible value and has very good sound. I only suggested that you hear his early set first, to be sure you get what you will like. Personally, I like other pianists more in almost every work, it has taken me a very long to appreciate Rubinstein's pianism. I would sample Ashkenazy's set as well. I like him more and the sound is better. I can upload some samples if you want for comparison. PM me. :)
Post by: Great Gable on February 03, 2008, 10:07:20 AM
Post by: Brian on February 03, 2008, 01:22:12 PM
BTW, I do love the later set, It's an incredible value and has very good sound. I only suggested that you hear his early set first, to be sure you get what you will like. Personally, I like other pianists more in almost every work, it has taken me a very long to appreciate Rubinstein's pianism. I would sample Ashkenazy's set as well. I like him more and the sound is better. I can upload some samples if you want for comparison. PM me. :)Well, price is the primary consideration for me, and at $30 for 11 discs Rubinstein's Chopin seems like a terrific way to "dip my toes in the water" or whichever cliche applies best to the situation. :) Throw in the fact that many people love his performances very much and I think as a "starter" set it will do well.
I have not heard Ashkenazy (except in some ok Beethoven), but do love the Chopin of Ivan Moravec, Claudio Arrau and Kemal Gekic (hat-tip to sidoze!) - a pity Moravec isn't given leeway by some adventurous label to just record as much as possible of whatever the hell he wants!
Nothing is cooler than helping a friend. 8):)
(http://www.ursine.com.au/Images/2BearsHug.gif)
Post by: George on February 03, 2008, 01:31:40 PM
Well, price is the primary consideration for me, and at $30 for 11 discs Rubinstein's Chopin seems like a terrific way to "dip my toes in the water" or whichever cliche applies best to the situation. :) Throw in the fact that many people love his performances very much and I think as a "starter" set it will do well.
I have not heard Ashkenazy (except in some ok Beethoven), but do love the Chopin of Ivan Moravec, Claudio Arrau and Kemal Gekic (hat-tip to sidoze!) - a pity Moravec isn't given leeway by some adventurous label to just record as much as possible of whatever the hell he wants!
:)
Hell, I'm willing to chip in! :D
Quote
(http://www.ursine.com.au/Images/2BearsHug.gif)
This made my day. :)
Post by: Brian on February 03, 2008, 01:39:13 PM
Hell, I'm willing to chip in! :DIxnay on atthay, I just found a $63 paycheck from the school newspaper on my desk under a stack of all the papers I wrote last semester. ;D *checks Amazon* So now there is a decision to be made 8)
This made my day. :)(http://www.eternitylabradors.com/images/cat_kitten_hug.gif)
;D
Post by: George on February 03, 2008, 01:54:08 PM
Ixnay on atthay, I just found a $63 paycheck from the school newspaper on my desk under a stack of all the papers I wrote last semester. ;D *checks Amazon* So now there is a decision to be made 8)
Someone needs to rethink his avatar caption.
Quote
(http://www.eternitylabradors.com/images/cat_kitten_hug.gif)
;D
:D
Post by: George on February 03, 2008, 01:55:27 PM
Post by: Brian on February 03, 2008, 02:03:57 PM
Someone needs to rethink his avatar caption.;)
Post by: Peregrine on February 03, 2008, 02:11:19 PM
BTW, anyone know if the performances on the new Sokolov Chopin 2 CD set on Naive are the ones that appeared previously on the same label?
Going by the description at MDT, I'ld say yes:
'These two CDs feature live performances by the legendary Russian pianist Grigory Sokolov of some of Chopin’ s most enduring masterpieces, the 24 preludes, the opus 25 études, and the great 2nd sonata. Originally available as two separate full price CDs, here released as a set. They were recorded in Paris at three concerts during 1990 and 1992.'
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//OP30456.htm
Post by: George on February 03, 2008, 02:21:19 PM
;)
;D
Going by the description at MDT, I'ld say yes:
'These two CDs feature live performances by the legendary Russian pianist Grigory Sokolov of some of Chopin’ s most enduring masterpieces, the 24 preludes, the opus 25 études, and the great 2nd sonata. Originally available as two separate full price CDs, here released as a set. They were recorded in Paris at three concerts during 1990 and 1992.'
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//OP30456.htm
Thanks!
Post by: Drasko on February 03, 2008, 02:43:56 PM
BTW, anyone know if the performances on the new Sokolov Chopin 2 CD set on Naive are the ones that appeared previously on the same label?
Same ones, though mdt info is incorrect about some of the dates and places. Etudes are from 13th June 1985 St.Petersburg (not even 1995 as their own backcover says)
(http://www.alapage.com/resize.php?&ref=958564&type=2&r=0&s=0&m=v)
Post by: George on February 03, 2008, 03:06:01 PM
Same ones, though mdt info is incorrect about some of the dates and places. Etudes are from 13th June 1985 St.Petersburg (not even 1995 as their own backcover says)
(http://www.alapage.com/resize.php?&ref=958564&type=2&r=0&s=0&m=v)
Yeah, that's what made me question it in the first place 1995 seemed too recent.
Danke Drasko.
Post by: m_gigena on February 03, 2008, 04:42:51 PM
Post by: Drasko on February 03, 2008, 06:27:23 PM
I said I liked him.
Just in case, Stefan Askenase ≠ Vladimir Ashkenazy.
Post by: George on February 03, 2008, 07:20:04 PM
Just in case, Stefan Askenase ≠ Vladimir Ashkenazy.
Woops. ::)
Post by: Brian on February 03, 2008, 08:55:37 PM
Am considering the Askenase, Ashkenazy, and (late) Rubinstein boxes now...
Post by: orbital on February 03, 2008, 09:53:05 PM
Post by: Holden on February 04, 2008, 02:04:12 AM
Fiorentino Plays Chopin 1959 (http://rapidshare.com/files/88629595/fiorchop.rar)
8)
Are you sure that this is Fiorentino?
Post by: Peregrine on February 04, 2008, 10:25:59 AM
Are you sure that this is Fiorentino?
I haven't had time to listen yet, but would have thought so. It originates from this thread:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/browse_frm/thread/e96a1aaded152f93/69c52efa2871d6d6?hl=en#69c52efa2871d6d6
What makes you you think otherwise?
Post by: samtrb on February 04, 2008, 07:47:53 PM
Arrau in nocturnes, (do i really need Moravec?)
Argerich/Abbado in concerto 1, included in that DG double disc "panorama" with Ashkenazy on PC n2, and argerich on preludes and sonata 2
Rubinstein in Polonaises, walzes and ballades & scherzi (all late recordings, i e 1960s), for the last two, i am really curious to explore more, I love Horowitz TV recording of the first ballade (1968) and I'd certainly try Zimerman one day
I don't listen to the Etudes a lot but the Ashkenazy sounds fine to me, i'd try Pollini one day
for concertos, other than the two i mentioned, i have Arrau on the double disc "complete music for piano and orchestra". The sound quality is not terrific, the opening is slower than others but Arrau sounds Arrau in every note, one cannot miss it!... Perahia/Mehta is not a recording i go back to anymore, principally due to sound quality and harsh orchestral playing
I am still looking for sonata n2, besides argerich, i have it by Michelangeli and i know Rubistein, i'll probably have it on the Horowitz Sony dics of the 1960s-1970s soon
Post by: Brian on February 04, 2008, 08:17:50 PM
I am still looking for sonata n2, besides argerich, i have it by Michelangeli and i know Rubistein, i'll probably have it on the Horowitz Sony dics of the 1960s-1970s soonTry Ivan Moravec's newish Vox disc; comes with a beautiful Fourth Ballade and a clutch of mazurkas, too. Extraordinary live performance. :)
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on February 04, 2008, 09:02:56 PM
Post by: George on February 04, 2008, 09:45:57 PM
The more i listen to Chopin, the more i need to try different recordings. So far i am still stuck with the classics.
Arrau in nocturnes, (do i really need Moravec?)
YES!
Post by: orbital on February 05, 2008, 07:12:22 AM
The more i listen to Chopin, the more i need to try different recordings. So far i am still stuck with the classics.I am not a big advocate of Arrau in nocturnes, actually next to Pires his is the only set that makes me cringe. There is slow nocturnes (Arrau) and then there is slow nocturnes (Moravec). If you like the tempo on the slower side, then I'd definitely go with Moravec. There are so many interpretations that although I don't have a favorite set there are a few that comes close. The one set that I can recommend without any hesitation is Tipo. She has grown to be my favorite overall. However, after having listened to Wasowski the last couple of days, her reign may be in jeopardy. Wasowski tends to go both ways. He has his own ideas on which noted and phrases to accentuate, and more often than not it just works for me. With the exception of op 37 g minor, his interpretations might be what I have been looking for after all.
Arrau in nocturnes, (do i really need Moravec?)
Post by: MN Dave on February 05, 2008, 07:14:26 AM
I am not a big advocate of Arrau in nocturnes, actually next to Pires his is the only set that makes me cringe. There is slow nocturnes (Arrau) and then there is slow nocturnes (Moravec). If you like the tempo on the slower side, then I'd definitely go with Moravec. There are so many interpretations that although I don't have a favorite set there are a few that comes close. The one set that I can recommend without any hesitation is Tipo. She has grown to be my favorite overall. However, after having listened to Wasowski the last couple of days, her reign may be in jeopardy. Wasowski tends to go both ways. He has his own ideas on which noted and phrases to accentuate, and more often than not it just works for me. With the exception of op 37 g minor, his interpretations might be what I have been looking for after all.
This subject of tempo in the nocturnes is interesting to me. How are they marked to be played? Who is playing them "properly?"
I love the Arrau nocturnes. Why do they make you cringe?
Post by: George on February 05, 2008, 07:16:45 AM
I am not a big advocate of Arrau in nocturnes, actually next to Pires his is the only set that makes me cringe. There is slow nocturnes (Arrau) and then there is slow nocturnes (Moravec). If you like the tempo on the slower side, then I'd definitely go with Moravec. There are so many interpretations that although I don't have a favorite set there are a few that comes close. The one set that I can recommend without any hesitation is Tipo. She has grown to be my favorite overall. However, after having listened to Wasowski the last couple of days, her reign may be in jeopardy. Wasowski tends to go both ways. He has his own ideas on which noted and phrases to accentuate, and more often than not it just works for me. With the exception of op 37 g minor, his interpretations might be what I have been looking for after all.
I recently read a great review of Pollini's Nocturnes: "this is a rose bush with the flowers cut off." 8)
Post by: orbital on February 05, 2008, 08:04:08 AM
This subject of tempo in the nocturnes is interesting to me. How are they marked to be played? Who is playing them "properly?"I don't know if Chopin put metronome markings on them, I don't think so though. But they have tempi indications on all of them AFAIK, like Andante Cantabile. Lento, etc.... So I'd say that the interpretation choices are pretty wide. I wouldn't know of a proper way of playing the Nocturnes (or any Chopin for that matter). It is purely personal taste IMO, some interpretations work for me, and others simply don't. I'd say, however, that the most distinguishing element of playing the nocturnes lies in the overall tempo and the amount of rubato employed. Since they are technically easy pieces for any pianist to play, the choice of these elements make a valid (or not) performance as far as I'm concerned. Then there are phrasings, accentuation, etc.. but they are only momentary and if the whole thing does not hold together there is little value on how a certain ornament is carried out.
I love the Arrau nocturnes. Why do they make you cringe?
With regards to Arrau, there is nothing wrong with his nocturnes. A lot of people have his versions as their favorite. It's just that I find his version a bit too romanticized. I don't know how to explain it coherently, but he seems to have his fingers stuck on keys and he just can't let them go :D. I feel like he (and to a larger extent Pires) is playing these pieces as if he is under some excruciating pain. They are slow and a little melancholic pieces mostly, yes, but they are not testaments to pain and agony. With that kind of interpretation I find myself wandering off to thoughts which have nothing to do with music at all. You can have a very personal interpretation and keep the focus on music, like Rubinstein and Francois, or even, -dare I say- Gavrilov does.
Post by: orbital on February 05, 2008, 08:05:52 AM
I recently read a great review of Pollini's Nocturnes: "this is a rose bush with the flowers cut off." 8)He puts out the candle with a fire extinguisher I guess ;D *
*The episode where Chopin instructs a student on rubato by slowly breathing out on a candle saying "This is what I mean by rubato". He, then, gives a strong blow to extinguish the candle and says "This is how you play it"
Post by: MN Dave on February 05, 2008, 08:11:35 AM
But they have tempi indications on all of them...
Too bad they don't indicate these when you buy a recording. Though I'm sure they're easy enough to find online. Thanks.
Post by: orbital on February 05, 2008, 08:25:15 AM
Too bad they don't indicate these when you buy a recording. Though I'm sure they're easy enough to find online. Thanks.Here you go, this is from the Ciccolini rip:
Post by: MN Dave on February 05, 2008, 08:27:35 AM
Here you go, this is from the Ciccolini rip:
Hey, thanks!
Post by: sidoze on February 06, 2008, 11:07:45 AM
Are you sure that this is Fiorentino?
I was surprised too--it's not very good, is it?--but on relistening I found that it matched many of his late performances -- for example the Largo of the 3rd sonata and the way he plays one of Ravel's Images (forget which number) -- in that he plays many slow movements in a very even and very heavy, even plodding way, with no sense of lilt or rubato at all. And it's amazing to say that because his waltzes are amazing (the live ones on the APR set), but just listen to Prelude 2, that is awful IMO.
Post by: sidoze on February 06, 2008, 11:09:47 AM
I was lucky enough to find a used copy of Wasowski Nocturnes today. Gave the first CD a spin. Simply wonderful, every bit as good as his Mazurkas. The phrasing is just perfectly tuned so that it is neither overly sentimental nor detached. I have to go through the whole set to have a more definite opinion which should be within the week.
I find his sense of timing doesn't at all connect with my own. I think there's something of the dance missing from his nocturnes, but you've made me want to revisit them once more :)
Post by: rubio on May 01, 2008, 06:42:02 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4166G9FB3EL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Post by: BorisG on May 01, 2008, 01:05:55 PM
I just listened to the 1st piano concerto performed by Gulda/Boult/LPO. For me this is a very good recording of this Chopin piano music accompanied by orchestra. I have not heard too many versions yet, though.
Argerich, Zimerman?
Post by: bassio on May 02, 2008, 10:53:34 AM
Argerich, Zimerman?
In your opinion:
The first Zimerman or the second Zimerman?
Also, which Argerich?
Post by: BorisG on May 02, 2008, 11:49:20 AM
In your opinion:
The first Zimerman or the second Zimerman?
Also, which Argerich?
I did not initially distinguish because I like all the performances.
I do, however, prefer the newest for each. Zimerman with his Polish ensemble, and Argerich with Dutoit. The piano playing remains consistently fine, but this time each are afforded exemplary sound.
Post by: George on May 02, 2008, 01:29:34 PM
... Argerich with Dutoit. The piano playing remains consistently fine, but this time each are afforded exemplary sound.
I second this recommendation.
I'd also check out a chamber version of this work, bassio, at the moment it is my preferred way to hear these works.
Post by: ezodisy on May 02, 2008, 01:50:48 PM
Post by: BorisG on May 02, 2008, 04:46:49 PM
There are many wonderful recordings of these works, though your options of course will be severely narrowed if you only go for modern sound quality and popular names.
The popular names are the likes of Li & Lang. There is no limitation with Zimerman & Argerich. And good sound is always a bonus. ;)
Post by: ezodisy on May 02, 2008, 11:41:12 PM
The wish for good sound is something that listeners eventually grow out of, thank goodness. I'm happy to point to George as the perfect example here (good to see you recommend the E. Fischer WTC before).
And the Dutoit conducting is dead limp, BTW.
Post by: FideLeo on May 02, 2008, 11:48:16 PM
Post by: ezodisy on May 02, 2008, 11:50:56 PM
Is Samson Francois a better proposition here? :)
Both of his recordings will divide opinion but there's no doubt they are unique in conception and execution (the piano sound is interesting IMO). I would definitely recommend them -- the budget EMI box of Francois' Chopin is essential for any Chopin colllection and it includes his second recording of these pieces. Out of his two recordings the earlier one is slightly preferable but unfortunately has never received the remastering it deserved.
I think there's a separate disc of Francois playing these works (EMI GROC?) but it's the box that is worth going for as his strong point in Chopin mostly lies elsewhere (the Nocturnes, some of the waltzes, some people say the Preludes and etudes, and for me Ballade 1).
Post by: BorisG on May 03, 2008, 03:25:37 PM
sorry but no matter how good they are, Zimerman and Argerich are popular names too, and the limitation here is gigantic. At one point I owned several dozen recordings of each work and I can only cringe that these two names get mentioned over and over again. In fact it's exactly the same as mentioning 'Li & Lang', the only difference is that these 2 in comparison are more of the journalist's darlings.
The wish for good sound is something that listeners eventually grow out of, thank goodness. I'm happy to point to George as the perfect example here (good to see you recommend the E. Fischer WTC before).
And the Dutoit conducting is dead limp, BTW.
Cringe away! ;D
Post by: bassio on May 04, 2008, 08:58:32 AM
I second this recommendation.
I'd also check out a chamber version of this work, bassio, at the moment it is my preferred way to hear these works.
Hey George, you read my mind, indeed I am certainly waiting for this experience, so recommendations are welcome. :)
Although I know that these recordings are still not available as other famed recordings and are thus more difficult to obtain.
And I think this will suit the simple orchestral writing of Chopin in these works and I believe this is what he had in mind, given the anecdotes we had of him that he couldn't play in large concert halls where his piano sound may have been "drowned". I also wonder if a "Pleyel" of his favorite is used. Certainly many recordings will appear in the future.
Anyway, I am always fond of Zimerman's pianism but the approach in his second recording does not do it for me, although I salute the innovation, but unfortunately I find it excessive (http://www.allaboutclassical.com/review/285), the older one is safe though.
I also assume that you heard Hofmann's mind-boggling accounts. not to be missed. There is also one of No.2 by Haskil which is excellent too, I believe was with Markevitch. Cortot in no.2 also but with dated sound.
Hmm .. I can't think of other recommendations for now.
I will relisten to the Argerich, I only have one account of her in this concerto, can't remember who the conductor is.
Post by: George on May 04, 2008, 11:44:28 AM
Hey George, you read my mind, indeed I am certainly waiting for this experience, so recommendations are welcome. :)
Although I know that these recordings are still not available as other famed recordings and are thus more difficult to obtain.
It's a female asian pianist and it's dirt cheap on eclassical. I forget the name, sorry.
Post by: rubio on June 30, 2008, 10:03:43 PM
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/17/171721.jpg)
Post by: ezodisy on June 30, 2008, 10:29:43 PM
However there is another 2CD set on Disky, which was licensed from EMI, that contains Chopin (sonata 2, 4 ballades, polonaises) and Rachmaninoff's PC3. If you can find that then buy it immediately -- it has some amazing playing, not least in the Rachmaninoff concerto that is quite sensational. Actually quite recently there was a release of Malcuzynski's earlier recording (I think) of the Rachmaninoff concerto so if you're a big fan of that piece then it certainly would be worth acquiring. On Aura there is a Malcuzynski disc that captures one of his recitals -- it has a remarkable Chopin etude op. 10/12, the socalled Revolutionary, which like Ginzburg's op. 25/11 is quite special for the sensitive moments brought out within the storm.
Post by: rubio on June 30, 2008, 11:27:05 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4130F0458AL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Post by: ezodisy on June 30, 2008, 11:34:05 PM
Post by: orbital on July 01, 2008, 12:05:29 AM
It's a female asian pianist and it's dirt cheap on eclassical. I forget the name, sorry.Fumiko Shiraga. And it is indeed a beautiful performance. It actually prompted me to get the other two available chamber versions neither of which are as successful. Fialkowska who was Rubinstein's favorite pupil (and possibly more) and Drewnowski. If you want to experience the concerti in a new light (i.e. even more focus on the piano >:D ) Shiraga on BIS is the one to go for.
Post by: George on July 01, 2008, 01:57:34 AM
Fumiko Shiraga. And it is indeed a beautiful performance. It actually prompted me to get the other two available chamber versions neither of which are as successful. Fialkowska who was Rubinstein's favorite pupil (and possibly more) and Drewnowski. If you want to experience the concerti in a new light (i.e. even more focus on the piano >:D ) Shiraga on BIS is the one to go for.
That's good to know, as I don't very much care for the orchestrated version.
Post by: Drasko on July 31, 2008, 09:34:20 AM
Post by: ezodisy on August 02, 2008, 08:47:02 AM
Is anyone familiar with Eldar Nebolsin recording of Chopin's first concerto (Deutsche-Symphonie Orchester/Ashkenazy - Decca)? Just saw it at second hand shop but didn't pick it up, no particular reason. Worth checking?
A ha, that's the chap with those Rachmaninoff Preludes on Naxos which are considered so good by some over at RMCR (apparently very personal readings). He'll be in London this December so I'll go and see him if I remember to check the dates (which I probably won't). His webiste has a picture of him with Bashkirov, and if he studied with him then he's bound to be somewhat interesting.
Post by: Drasko on August 02, 2008, 02:13:33 PM
A ha, that's the chap with those Rachmaninoff Preludes on Naxos which are considered so good by some over at RMCR (apparently very personal readings).
Yes, that's him, though Chopin Concerto is from 10-12 years ago. How personal at that age probably questionable.
Post by: ezodisy on August 03, 2008, 01:05:38 AM
Post by: orbital on August 04, 2008, 01:35:35 AM
Could not care less for the other two.This, coming from someone who loves the nocturnes? :o
I can understand the third movement, but the Romanza, for me, is close to being one of the finest things Chopin ever wrote.
Do you feel the same about the Larghetto of the 2nd?
Post by: Maciek on January 20, 2009, 06:16:36 AM
Post by: George on January 20, 2009, 07:22:28 AM
Post by: Mandryka on January 21, 2009, 03:12:06 AM
I have really enjoyed Pogorelich on DVD -- even though the slow movement is very slow, there's such a powerful forward momentum in the playing that it is irresistible to me. And he's such a master of piano colour. (I'm a bit of a Pofgorelich fan -- be warned!)
I also enjoyed an old CD of Cherkassky playing it in the 80s -- it is probably unavailable now (I picked it up second hand.) It's a really turbulent performance.
And then there's Pletnev -- I don't know what to make of this. When I first played it I hated it. So slow. Every little point underlined and emphasised.
But it's starting to grow on me. I like the piano colours. I like its impressionistic flavour. It's certainly the most oddball performance I know.
Post by: Herman on January 21, 2009, 03:30:35 AM
I have recently been listening to a lot of Sonata 3 recordings and have found some great ones.
Other interesting 3ds are the Bolet as on the GPOC; Fiorentino on APR and even the Rubinstein.
Post by: Mandryka on January 21, 2009, 05:20:56 AM
But I have a bit of a love hate relationship with Rubinstein.
I have enjoyed his early recording of the Scherzos. They may be the best complete set of scherzos I know -- though I think it's hard to beat Richter for his wildness, and Pogorelich in the 3rd.
But mostly I find Rubinstein a bit too urbane and civilised. I like my Chopin to be full of Polish fire.
I wonder if you know one interesting Rubinstein Chopin recording I recently heard -- a live Italian concert in 1961, with the second sonata and some preludes, etudes, and waltzes? (It's on the Fabula Classics label)
The smaller pieces are especially good.
Post by: George on January 21, 2009, 05:36:04 AM
But mostly I find Rubinstein a bit too urbane and civilised. I like my Chopin to be full of Polish fire.
It has taken me a very long time to warm to Rubinstein. Like yourself, I have enjoyed his earlier recordings and feel that often his recordings are a bit too civilized. I often have often wished he had pushed the boundaries a bit more in his performances.
Post by: aquablob on January 21, 2009, 05:44:20 AM
I have recently been listening to a lot of Sonata 3 recordings and have found some great ones.
I have really enjoyed Pogorelich on DVD -- even though the slow movement is very slow, there's such a powerful forward momentum in the playing that it is irresistible to me. And he's such a master of piano colour. (I'm a bit of a Pofgorelich fan -- be warned!)
I also enjoyed an old CD of Cherkassky playing it in the 80s -- it is probably unavailable now (I picked it up second hand.) It's a really turbulent performance.
And then there's Pletnev -- I don't know what to make of this. When I first played it I hated it. So slow. Every little point underlined and emphasised.
But it's starting to grow on me. I like the piano colours. I like its impressionistic flavour. It's certainly the most oddball performance I know.
I would like to hear the Cherkassky some time.
Anyway, I also enjoy Pogorelich... BUT...
I enjoy Cziffra, Ohlsson, and Lipatti even more! And Rubinstein is no slouch here, either!
Gilels is actually pretty convincing in this piece, too (an unexpected choice, perhaps?).
Post by: George on January 21, 2009, 05:46:38 AM
I would like to hear the Cherkassky some time.
Anyway, I also enjoy Pogorelich... BUT...
I enjoy Cziffra, Ohlsson, and Lipatti even more! And Rubinstein is no slouch here, either!
Let's not forget Anievas. I haven't heard it in awhile, but it was one of my first classical piano CDs. The accompanying Rachmaninov preludes are excellent! I think it is now OOP.
Post by: ezodisy on January 21, 2009, 06:45:34 AM
I have recently been listening to a lot of Sonata 3 recordings and have found some great ones.
Pogorelich is interesting, more so (I guess) some of his recent performances of the piece. I heard one in 2005 which lasted about 50 minutes, with the second movement alone something like 8 minutes. It was fascinating (in every sense).
I have a live Pletnev performance from the early 2000s or late 1990s (can't recall) which has a memorable slow movement, a quite distinctive performance as ever. His performances of Chopin are breathtaking, especially a live Preludes set I have from 2005 or so.
For the third I would recommend the live Jorge Bolet recording which Herman mentioned (on Marston Records). It's a noble and personal reading with a lovely Largo, slowly paced overall, recorded near the end of his career.
I'd also recommend the live Igor Zhukov recording which Peter Lemken on RMCR recorded in the '90s. It is very dark, pretty much manic-depressive, with a really intense Largo. I'm sure he won't mind if I share it with you, you can download it here (in flac):
http://rapidshare.com/files/187129666/Igor_Zhukov_Chopin_Sonata_3_live_-_Ann_Arbor_98.flac.html
Kemal Gekic's early recording of this piece is quite good and distinctive. You should really hear his Chopin, there is no one else like him, though this particular recording doesn't include the third sonata.
http://www.amazon.com/Kemal-Gekic-Live-In-Japan/dp/B0003U89IM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1232549019&sr=1-2
I wish Maria Tipo had recorded this piece. She would have done something magical with the Largo, judging by her unique Nocturnes.
Post by: Mandryka on January 21, 2009, 07:44:48 AM
Quote
I enjoy Cziffra
Well I like Cziffra in Mozart and Beethoven -- in fact in everything except Chopin and Liszt (I've only heard the studio recordings though) He just seems too hard driven in the 3rd for me.
Quote
Gilels is actually pretty convincing
Agreed totally. I like nearly everything that Gilels did -- I expect you know his 2nd sonata too.
It's interesting to see Bolet's name come up so often. I don't know it but I will check it out.
Quote
I'd also recommend the live Igor Zhukov recording which Peter Lemken on RMCR recorded in the '90s. It is very dark, pretty much manic-depressive, with a really intense Largo. I'm sure he won't mind if I share it with you, you can download it here (in flac):
You've made my day. I shall download it straight away!
Quote
It has taken me a very long time to warm to Rubinstein.
It's hard to like BOTH Richter AND Rubinstein!
Post by: Josquin des Prez on January 21, 2009, 08:14:47 AM
Post by: George on January 21, 2009, 08:56:22 AM
It's hard to like BOTH Richter AND Rubinstein!
Indeed! I am trying though.
Post by: Drasko on January 21, 2009, 09:04:01 AM
Gilels is actually pretty convincing in this piece, too (an unexpected choice, perhaps?).
Which one? Two* live recordings from previous year than DG studio are considerably faster, shaving more than minute off both first movement and Largo.
* maybe these two could be the same since timings for both Brilliant (1.1977) and Melodiya (27.12.1977) are almost identical? Brilliant isn't always too reliable when it comes to dates. Does anyone have both?
For op.58 I usually reach for Cortot or Cziffra, Argerich first recording (EMI) isn't bad, and just recently got live Firkusny which sounds interesting on first listen, possibly bit swift for some tastes.
Few that I see I have and look promising on paper are Malcuzynski, Gekic, early Freire, but can't seem to recall much about any of them.
Post by: ezodisy on January 21, 2009, 10:01:12 AM
Post by: Mandryka on January 21, 2009, 10:53:52 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3xJSw0emgw
I can see why people recommend it!
Post by: aquablob on January 21, 2009, 11:39:58 AM
Well I like Cziffra in Mozart and Beethoven -- in fact in everything except Chopin and Liszt (I've only heard the studio recordings though) He just seems too hard driven in the 3rd for me.
I understand and respect that opinion, although I don't share it; I find his Chopin and Liszt indispensable!
Post by: Peregrine on January 21, 2009, 12:17:42 PM
Post by: Herman on January 21, 2009, 12:38:47 PM
It's hard to like BOTH Richter AND Rubinstein!
Not at all, especially if you consider that Chopin was not really Richter's forte, while Rubinstein is, obviously a great Chopin interpret.
Post by: Herman on January 21, 2009, 12:39:34 PM
, and just recently got live Firkusny which sounds interesting on first listen, possibly bit swift for some tastes.
I like it fine.
Post by: George on January 21, 2009, 12:57:06 PM
Not at all, especially if you consider that Chopin was not really Richter's forte, while Rubinstein is, obviously a great Chopin interpret.
Good point Herman. Though I usually don't prefer Rubinstein for any of the Chopin works (except the bercuese and maybe a few others) I will admit that he is one of the great Chopin interpreters. Moravec remains for me what Rubinstein is to many others.
Post by: aquablob on January 21, 2009, 01:17:09 PM
Moravec remains for me what Rubinstein is to many others.
I'll take Moravec, Rubinstein, and Richter! No need to deprive myself of any of these fine Chopin performers (and yes, I consider Richter a fine Chopin performer)!
But I must admit... Moravec + Chopin = very special place in my heart...
Post by: Peregrine on January 21, 2009, 01:19:27 PM
and yes, I consider Richter a fine Chopin performer
Me too
Post by: George on January 21, 2009, 01:26:38 PM
But I must admit... Moravec + Chopin = very special place in my heart...
0:)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 21, 2009, 10:16:42 PM
I like the heavy, dark-hued ones [3rd sonata] but Gilels seemed to be plodding along...
Speaking of heavy 3rds, or at least heavy-ish, you might find Katchen's from 1955 interesting. There's a darkish element to his playing too though I'd call him more 'grey' with finely etched contrasts.
But he's not at all plodding. In fact, his agility is what's most impressive, though it's hard not to be swept up in his many flights of poetry. In the end everything hangs together for an impressive showing.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41K1X87KBVL._SS500_.jpg)
Post by: Mandryka on January 21, 2009, 10:21:02 PM
Quote
I usually don't prefer Rubinstein for any of the Chopin works (except the bercuese and maybe a few others)
Josef Hoffman is King of the Berceuse, in my opinion.
Though I think you'd have a hard time nodding off to sleep with him playing it.
Post by: Mandryka on January 21, 2009, 10:24:33 PM
I know he was variable, so which are the essential Horowitz Chopin performances to know?
Here's on of my favourites:
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 21, 2009, 10:35:28 PM
Moravec remains for me what Rubinstein is to many others.
For high poetry, beauty of tone, and the most exhilarating accents, Moravec is king.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413JMG7WVXL._SS400_.jpg)
Post by: zamyrabyrd on January 21, 2009, 11:19:06 PM
Ebay shipment just arrived with Ashkenazy on London: Polonaises that include many unpublished ones, the Ballades and Scherzi (the latter enjoyed many years ago on LP). Really excellent, attention to detail that artistically fuse into a whole concept.
But astonishing was the recording by Geza Anda of the Chopin Waltzes on the Philips Great Pianists' series. He takes them at a slower pace, on the whole, but derives so much more music from them.
ZB
Post by: orbital on January 21, 2009, 11:22:35 PM
What do you guys think of Horowitz's Chopin?Granted I have not heard his Chopin much, what I have heard (a few nocturnes, mazurkas, a butchered up g minor ballade and a few others) doesn't not warrant looking for more. His kind of idiosyncrasy does not go well with Chopin IMO
I know he was variable, so which are the essential Horowitz Chopin performances to know?
Post by: Herman on January 21, 2009, 11:37:05 PM
Post by: Peregrine on January 22, 2009, 12:01:41 AM
Post by: rubio on January 22, 2009, 12:42:37 AM
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/8111065.jpg)
Post by: Holden on January 22, 2009, 01:15:16 AM
I'll take Moravec, Rubinstein, and Richter! No need to deprive myself of any of these fine Chopin performers (and yes, I consider Richter a fine Chopin performer)!
But I must admit... Moravec + Chopin = very special place in my heart...
Rubinstein is one of the finest interpreters of Chopin ever. His unmannered, unfussy yet warm approach in most of the repertoire is hard to beat. Yes, you can look to separate performances of individual works, but overall AR is the definitive performer just like Cortot was in his era.
I also agree about Moravec with the Nocturnes but would stop short there. There is also Bolet's fantastic live Preludes and the Ashkenazy Waltzes and Polonaises. The Richter Scherzos are very special. But when I really want to go back to Chopin I invariably return to Rubinstein.
As for the Berceuse yes, Hofman is exceptional but you need to hear Solomon play this.
Post by: Maciek on January 22, 2009, 01:56:35 AM
(Interesting, BTW, how Rubinstein is automatically associated with Chopin, even though he did not play much Chopin at the beginnings of his career, AFAIK; I don't imagine he ever considered himself a "Chopin pianist" - Chopin was just one of a group of favorite composers, along with Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Liszt)
Post by: ezodisy on January 22, 2009, 02:24:40 AM
Speaking of heavy 3rds, or at least heavy-ish, you might find Katchen's from 1955 interesting. There's a darkish element to his playing too though I'd call him more 'grey' with finely etched contrasts.
But he's not at all plodding. In fact, his agility is what's most impressive, though it's hard not to be swept up in his many flights of poetry. In the end everything hangs together for an impressive showing.
I know I've heard that but cannot remember at all what it was like.
I agree about Horowitz's Chopin, something about it that I can't connect with.
There is also Bolet's fantastic live Preludes
yeah that's a wonderful set, with the live Arrau on APR, live Pletnev and the live Zhukov recording which Peregrine mentioned, those are the 4 I would keep (all live in fact).
Post by: Drasko on January 22, 2009, 02:25:04 AM
You like it a bit lighter Drasko? Cziffra's rhythmic sense really comes alive in Chopin and I also like his 3rd, same with the early DG Argerich (haven't heard the EMI one)
Yes, it looks I do. Have to admit never could really warm up to Zhukov, much too heavy weather. But I did like some live Pogorelich from 80's (those recent 45 minute fantasias on Chopin sonata are really hard to compare with anything). Do you know is somewhere available some 80s broadcast in decent sound?
Argerich EMI recording always grabs me with its awesomely imperious opening, entire first movement is very strong. Haven't heard it recently but seem to recall that EMI is touch less nervous and abrasive than DG.
For high poetry, beauty of tone, and the most exhilarating accents, Moravec is king.
Although I love the way he accents (or is it accentuates?) 4th Ballade, for most exilarating accents Gekic or Cziffra come to my mind before Moravec.
How is Cortot in these sonatas?
Don't know which are those but in 1931 3rd I have he is superb, typical Cotrot in his effortless rightness in spite of not so perfect tehnique.
Post by: ezodisy on January 22, 2009, 02:46:31 AM
Do you know is somewhere available some 80s broadcast in decent sound?
There are some, yeah, though I don't know where to get them from right now. I used to have a live recording from Carnegie Hall around '90, not sure if I sent that one to you (the one that ended with Islamey as an encore). Other than that the only '80s recordings I had were his Chopin competition recordings (which I've still got, minus sonata 2, which is on Youtube I think), and a live Prokofiev PC 3 from London played soon after the competition. Actually I have his Rachmaninoff Sonata 2 supposedly recorded in '91. It's hard to find a live recording in good sound as most were made from the audience.
Quote
for most exilarating accents Gekic or Cziffra come to my mind
Gekic, Cziffra and Natan Brand. There was only one time I associated the word exhilarating with Moravec and that was after hearing his live Prokofiev PC 1 which is utterly diabolical (in a good way). Anyone ever hear Moravec's first recording of the Preludes? Never was able to find it.
Post by: Drasko on January 22, 2009, 03:02:01 AM
There are some, yeah, though I don't know where to get them from right now. I used to have a live recording from Carnegie Hall around '90, not sure if I sent that one to you (the one that ended with Islamey as an encore).
If you mean Chopin's 3rd, than definitely no, you haven't sent it. There is poor sounding '83 recording from Japanese TV on youtube, so I thought it could have been a radio broadcast as well.
Quote
Gekic, Cziffra and Natan Brand
Yes, Brand, absolutely. He had predilection to accent some odd inner voice when you least expect it, especially in Schumann.
Post by: ezodisy on January 22, 2009, 03:21:27 AM
If you mean Chopin's 3rd, than definitely no, you haven't sent it. There is poor sounding '83 recording from Japanese TV on youtube, so I thought it could have been a radio broadcast as well.
sorry I didn't realise you meant only the 3rd sonata. Don't know of any other recordings though they must exist somewhere. I like the fantasia (nice one) just fine, and you get an extra repeat in the Largo, how generous :)
Post by: rubio on January 22, 2009, 03:46:59 AM
Don't know which are those but in 1931 3rd I have he is superb, typical Cotrot in his effortless rightness in spite of not so perfect tehnique.
The Naxos Historical one is from 1933. Is the 1931 3rd in the EMI box set?
Post by: George on January 22, 2009, 03:56:41 AM
For high poetry, beauty of tone, and the most exhilarating accents, Moravec is king.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413JMG7WVXL._SS400_.jpg)
Thanks for the heads up on that CD, I hadn't heard of it before. I just grabbed the last copy from amazon.us. 8)
Post by: George on January 22, 2009, 03:58:58 AM
The Naxos Historical one is from 1933. Is the 1931 3rd in the EMI box set?
That is correct. The Naxos is a better transfer for all 5 volumes, with clearer sound.
Post by: Herman on January 22, 2009, 04:41:32 AM
Post by: rubio on January 22, 2009, 06:07:43 AM
That is correct. The Naxos is a better transfer for all 5 volumes, with clearer sound.
Which performance do you prefer Cortot's Chopin Sonatas 2 and 3? Is the best performance included in the Naxos volumes?
Post by: Renfield on January 22, 2009, 07:02:25 AM
Which performance do you prefer Cortot's Chopin Sonatas 2 and 3? Is the best performance included in the Naxos volumes?
1931 for the latter, beyond doubt. It is, in fact, my favourite recording of the 3rd Sonata in general - though I also admire Arrau's.
The 2nd Sonata from the Naxos disc is, however, worth (more than) the asking price alone. :)
Incidentally, (George)
I haven't forgotten about posting my view on Naxos vs. EMI Cortot remasterings, I've just not had the time to unertake the enterprise. ;)
And as for Rubinstein vs. Richter in Chopin, the obvious answer is "Cortot".
Post by: George on January 22, 2009, 07:21:26 AM
Which performance do you prefer Cortot's Chopin Sonatas 2 and 3? Is the best performance included in the Naxos volumes?
The (5) Naxos volumes are made up of mostly previously unreleased Cortot Chopin recordings. That was the aim of Mark Obert Thorn, who did the transfers, splendidly I might add. I really think that his efforts are well worth supporting and the disks are really cheap over at MDT. I am told that the current sale over there is over in a few days, so I wouldn't wait long to grab them.
I haven't compared the two performances of 3 yet, sorry.
Post by: George on January 22, 2009, 07:24:48 AM
Incidentally, (George)
I haven't forgotten about posting my view on Naxos vs. EMI Cortot remasterings, I've just not had the time to unertake the enterprise. ;)
No worries I have since obtained everything, the EMI box, the Naxos 5 CDs, the EMI remaster of the 1933 preludes, the GPOTC set (from the library.) 0:)
Quote
And as for Rubinstein vs. Richter in Chopin, the obvious answer is "Cortot".
;D
I'm liking Gekic more and more. I hope he keeps releasing CDs. I just got the Chopin recital from 1989? last night in the mail.
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 22, 2009, 07:47:57 AM
Although I love the way he accents (or is it accentuates?) 4th Ballade, for most exilarating accents Gekic or Cziffra come to my mind before Moravec.
Gekic, Cziffra and Natan Brand. There was only one time I associated the word exhilarating with Moravec and that was after hearing his live Prokofiev PC 1 which is utterly diabolical (in a good way).
It might be just a semantics thing. In the context of "high poetry" and "beauty of tone" I meant 'exhilarating' to mean simply 'moving'. Perhaps "shimmering" accents might have been more appropriate. At least for the disc in question.
Post by: Mandryka on January 22, 2009, 08:37:11 AM
I know it isn't exactly patrician. I know it's highly idiosyncratic. He plays to the the 1/9ds maybe.
But he is such a commanding master of the piano that I find him irresistable -- even in the Mazurkas -- which are especially strange.
Is there really no-one who will keep me company in a Horowitz-Chopin fan club?
Post by: George on January 22, 2009, 08:46:08 AM
Is there really no-one who will keep me company in a Horowitz-Chopin fan club?
Sorry. :(
Post by: Renfield on January 22, 2009, 08:51:58 AM
I think I must be alone in my admiration for Horowitz's chopin.
You're not. The fact that I prefer Cortot doesn't mean I don't admire Horwitz. :) Along with Arrau and Richter, Horowitz occupies the third place in my personal Chopin "pianist preference ranking", with Rubinstein second, and Cortot very comfortably first.
(If you'll excuse the rather disingenuous sporting analogy. It's not like they all raced against each other, for a ranking to be possible!)
Post by: Dr. Dread on January 22, 2009, 08:52:57 AM
Is there really no-one who will keep me company in a Horowitz-Chopin fan club?
I have a Horowitz Chopin disc. It's on Naxos. I'll have to spin it again soon.
Post by: Drasko on January 22, 2009, 09:44:05 AM
Is there really no-one who will keep me company in a Horowitz-Chopin fan club?
Not in a fan club but I can like him in some of the larger Polonaises, 1st Scherzo and few bits an pieces here and there, lovely op.69/1 waltz on RCA. But generally I vastly prefer him in Scriabin, Rachmaninov or Schumann, somehow I get the feeling he really enjoyed playing with Chopin, but as usual with playing, quite often dolls lose their heads in the process.
Post by: George on January 22, 2009, 09:45:55 AM
But generally I vastly prefer him in Scriabin, Rachmaninov or Schumann, somehow I get the feeling he really enjoyed playing with Chopin, but as usual with playing, quite often dolls lose their heads in the process.
Very well put. I love his Rachmaninov, Sciabin and Schumann and I will add Scarlatti.
Post by: ezodisy on January 22, 2009, 09:48:12 AM
but as usual with playing, quite often dolls lose their heads in the process.
lol!
Post by: Dr. Dread on January 22, 2009, 10:17:24 AM
LOL
Post by: George on January 22, 2009, 10:29:59 AM
Did anyone ever do a favorite Chopin recordings by type (nocturnes, ballades, etc.) thread before? I'd like to see all this information neatly compiled in single posts.
LOL
You could just ask the question here, as there are already a number of people subscribed to this thread.
Post by: Dr. Dread on January 22, 2009, 10:32:35 AM
You could just ask the question here, as there are already a number of people subscribed to this thread.
Consider it asked.
Post by: aquablob on January 22, 2009, 10:35:11 AM
Post by: George on January 22, 2009, 10:40:16 AM
Consider it asked.
Ok. I need some time to do some comparing as I have multiple favorites for each. Can we give something like 3 picks for each category? I think it would be nice if we said a bit about why we chose are favorites as well.
Post by: Dr. Dread on January 22, 2009, 10:41:38 AM
Ok. I need some time to do some comparing as I have multiple favorites for each. Can we give something like 3 picks for each category? I think it would be nice if we said a bit about why we chose are favorites as well.
Whatever works. But the fewer, the better.
Post by: ezodisy on January 22, 2009, 10:46:03 AM
Post by: Drasko on January 22, 2009, 10:59:01 AM
Post by: rubio on January 22, 2009, 11:01:34 AM
Josef Hoffman is King of the Berceuse, in my opinion.
Though I think you'd have a hard time nodding off to sleep with him playing it.
So which recording of the Hoffman Berceuse do you refer to. Any of the Marston volumes?
Post by: Peregrine on January 22, 2009, 11:07:20 AM
So which recording of the Hoffman Berceuse do you refer to. Any of the Marston volumes?
I asked ezodisy about Hoffman recordings a while ago and he completely ignored me... :'(
Post by: Dr. Dread on January 22, 2009, 11:25:36 AM
(http://www.guruoffilm.com/images/sledge1.jpg)
;D
Post by: ezodisy on January 22, 2009, 11:46:09 AM
(http://www.guruoffilm.com/images/sledge1.jpg)
lol! See what I mean? (the suit, glasses, girl). We need to deck you out in pastel colours and double-breasted jackets like Don Johnson from Miami Vice. You'd be unstoppable.
I asked ezodisy about Hoffman recordings a while ago and he completely ignored me... :'(
sorry mate, I have no excuse for it. I do it a lot and indiscriminately ::)
The Casimir Hall recital is the one I used to play often, the one with the infamous Waldstein sonata, Chopin ballade 4 and a truncated Schumann Kreisleriana. There was a time when I thought it was the greatest thing I'd ever heard. Not so sure about that now. Also I don't think Drasko likes it all that much, so it might be worth hearing samples of first.
Other than that the disc of Chopin concerti which was remastered recently, that one's outstanding. And this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Josef-Hofmann-Vol-2/dp/B000003LIT/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1232653524&sr=1-2
I think you can hear his explosive Ballade 1 on Youtube
Post by: Peregrine on January 22, 2009, 11:58:46 AM
sorry mate, I have no excuse for it. I do it a lot and indiscriminately ::)
No worries, I'm sure you know I was taking the piss. Thanks for the recs. though, I'll have a look on Youtube later...
Post by: ezodisy on January 22, 2009, 12:21:40 PM
Other Chopin disc I would recommend is this one (okay it's not Hofmann). One of the very very best IMO
http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2590632
(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/25/9/0/632.jpg)
Post by: Peregrine on January 22, 2009, 12:42:17 PM
Other Chopin disc I would recommend is this one (okay it's not Hofmann). One of the very very best IMO
Yeah, still got that in my 'basket'. Should have bought it ages ago, what with the weak pound >:(
Still, if I can spend £25 on an OOP Haydn SQ disc, I'm sure I can stretch to purchasing this disc!!!
Post by: orbital on January 22, 2009, 12:48:58 PM
The Hofmann Ballade 1 is on YT, listened to it again just now, pretty amazing IMOI think there are two versions in there right? One is slower than the other IIRC.
Post by: Holden on January 22, 2009, 12:50:09 PM
The Hofmann Ballade 1 is on YT, listened to it again just now, pretty amazing IMO
Other Chopin disc I would recommend is this one (okay it's not Hofmann). One of the very very best IMO
http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2590632
(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/25/9/0/632.jpg)
....and the one from the Vatican in 1986 which I can not find anywhere on the net - my copy is on a cheapo label. Tony, what's on the one you've posted?
Post by: ezodisy on January 22, 2009, 01:02:15 PM
It might be just a semantics thing. In the context of "high poetry" and "beauty of tone" I meant 'exhilarating' to mean simply 'moving'. Perhaps "shimmering" accents might have been more appropriate. At least for the disc in question.
I'm with you on this. I think Drasko and I had more in mind the wild and flying sort of accents when you mentioned that word.
....and the one from the Vatican in 1986 which I can not find anywhere on the net - my copy is on a cheapo label. Tony, what's on the one you've posted?
I don't know the Vatican recording, '86 is quite late in his career.
The Diapson disc from '67 contains the Fm Fantasie, op45 Prelude, Sonata 2 (I think his best performance of it, along with the one from Prague), 4 mazurkas, Ballade 1 and Andante Spianato.....
I uploaded 2 of the pieces to YT:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bmDJ857s4Xs
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cNxYr-qU2w4
Post by: ezodisy on January 22, 2009, 01:04:42 PM
I think there are two versions in there right? One is slower than the other IIRC.
I'm not sure, but am pretty sure the one on YT is the one from the CD, which I no longer have. It has that whirlwind coda...
Post by: Mandryka on January 22, 2009, 01:19:21 PM
Quote
So which recording of the Hoffman Berceuse do you refer to. Any of the Marston volumes?
The Hofman Berceuse I like is on this
Post by: Mandryka on January 22, 2009, 01:23:33 PM
I always wear a leather gimp's mask when I play it.
Post by: rubio on January 22, 2009, 01:26:23 PM
The Hofman Berceuse I like is on this
Which recording date is it?
Post by: Peregrine on January 22, 2009, 01:32:21 PM
I wouldn't like anyone to think I was an oddball, but I confess to having a soft spot for the Chopin on this CD -- just because it is so strange.
I always wear a leather gimp's mask when I play it.
What a pianist! I have his opera paraphrases on VAI, an absolutely thunderous tone!
Post by: ezodisy on January 22, 2009, 01:55:11 PM
I wouldn't like anyone to think I was an oddball, but I confess to having a soft spot for the Chopin on this CD -- just because it is so strange.
I always wear a leather gimp's mask when I play it.
What a pianist! I have his opera paraphrases on VAI, an absolutely thunderous tone!
lol! Yeah Nyiregyhazi is one in the world, I haven't heard that disc (the remastering was not well received on rmcr) but I knew the recordings from online sources and particularly liked the long introspective solo Rachmaninoff PC 2 central movement. Nyiregyhazi's Hungarian, so of course he's interesting.
By the way Mandryka, put on your gimp mask mate and have a listen to this: http://www.mediafire.com/?tw2zonz2y5y
Post by: Mandryka on January 22, 2009, 10:05:03 PM
Quote
Which recording date is it?
The Hofman Berceuse I know was recorded in 1937.
Post by: Mandryka on January 23, 2009, 12:17:52 AM
As for the Berceuse yes, Hofman is exceptional but you need to hear Solomon play this.
I couldn't agree more, Holden.
There's a real sense in which Hofman was taking the mick out of the title -- there's no way his performance could lull a baby to sleep. But you can imagine the baby having sweet dreams while Solomon is playing.
Timings -- Solomon 4'59''; Hofman 3'39'' !
I love them both.
Post by: Mandryka on January 23, 2009, 12:25:49 AM
By the way Mandryka, put on your gimp mask mate and have a listen to this: http://www.mediafire.com/?tw2zonz2y5y
Great! Thanks a lot! I had never heard that. Oh my God, what an extraordinary performance -- you've made me laugh out loud ( a mixture of astonishment, pleasure and nervousness).
Post by: Peregrine on January 23, 2009, 12:26:11 AM
lol! Yeah Nyiregyhazi is one in the world, I haven't heard that disc (the remastering was not well received on rmcr) but I knew the recordings from online sources and particularly liked the long introspective solo Rachmaninoff PC 2 central movement. Nyiregyhazi's Hungarian, so of course he's interesting.
Different disc?:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21NM7V8VB1L._SL500_AA130_.jpg)
No Rach on here, Ward-Marston did transfers and seem OK to me...
Post by: Mandryka on January 23, 2009, 12:35:09 AM
Different disc?:
Yeah -- I can't recommend the Liszt and Chopin and Rach and Debussy and Schubert one more highly for it's sheer oddballnes. And the pianist is a real poet -- if a rather eccentric one. He's isn't at his prime in the recordings, but you get a glimpse of how extraordinary he was in his younger days.
Transfers aren't the best, but they aren't painful, and with music making as special as this, it doesn't matter to me.
Post by: ezodisy on January 23, 2009, 12:43:25 AM
Different disc?:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21NM7V8VB1L._SL500_AA130_.jpg)
No Rach on here, Ward-Marston did transfers and seem OK to me...
don't know that one, but the Rachmaninoff solo movement is on the M&A disc which Mandryka posted on the previous page of this thread (which is the disc that came in for criticism). Absolutely thunderous as you said, so deep and rich, there's an amazing YT video which captures it well.
Great! Thanks a lot! I had never heard that. Oh my God, what an extraordinary performance -- you've made me laugh out loud ( a mixture of astonishment, pleasure and nervousness).
(http://operawebclub.com/papageno/style_emoticons/default/good.gif)
;D
Post by: Holden on January 23, 2009, 01:48:27 PM
I'm with you on this. I think Drasko and I had more in mind the wild and flying sort of accents when you mentioned that word.
I don't know the Vatican recording, '86 is quite late in his career.
The Diapson disc from '67 contains the Fm Fantasie, op45 Prelude, Sonata 2 (I think his best performance of it, along with the one from Prague), 4 mazurkas, Ballade 1 and Andante Spianato.....
I uploaded 2 of the pieces to YT:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bmDJ857s4Xs
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cNxYr-qU2w4
The one from the Vatican always draws me back to relisten to it and I don't know why. The andante spianato is superb as is the 1st Ballade. It also has a couple of mazurkas and waltzes. The CD is at work so I haven't got a complete track list.
Post by: Peregrine on January 25, 2009, 01:19:11 PM
I have to say that many of the choices so far are supremely lazy ones. There’s a whole world of Chopin playing that hasn’t even been touched upon yet. This is partly to blame on media coverage--from review journals to radio broadcasts--as they tend to focus on a very limited sphere of big name pianists; and partly to blame on human nature, in so far as it’ll be satisfied with what’s served up (i.e. no exertion, no problem).
One thing I want to mention is that the title “best Chopin pianists” has little to do with quantity. Nearly all the greatest pianists--of any composer--found works which they identified with and consequently played exceptionally well. Generally, it’s the pianists who recorded everything that you should be wary of.
I am going to offer a short overview of notable Chopin pianists that are worth exploring (as I have so much still to hear myself, this list is by no means exhaustive, not even of my own collection). Unfortunately, some of these names are rarely mentioned anywhere – which is a reason itself for wanting to hear them. You will also notice that I am not fond of most of the big name, media friendly, so-called Chopinians. In truth everything below is essential listening, though I have marked out some pianists in particular as a starting point.
Greatest Chopin pianists I’ve heard
Ignace Tiegerman
Leo Sirota
Maryla Jonas
Vladimir Sofronitsky
Moriz Rosenthal
Josef Lhevinne
Edouard Risler
Sergei Rachmaninoff
Natan Brand
The above are exceptional talents who, quite simply, are the navigation points of Chopin pianism. Depending upon one’s taste other names can be added--Ignaz Friedman, Vladimir de Pachmann, Ignacy Jan Paderewski, Josef Hofmann, Alfred Cortot, Leopold Godowsky, Artur Rubinstein, pre-Decca Vladimir Ashkenazy and some more--but not one, no matter how little he or she recorded, can reasonably be subtracted (not even the most recent one to our times, naysayers).
Karol Mikuli, Emile Descombes and Vera Rubio pupils, i.e. second generation links to Chopin
Moriz Rosenthal – essential listening. Studied with Mikuli. A legato out of this world, his touch was incomparable. Try the Pearl, APR, Biddulph discs.
Raul Koczalski – studied with Mikuli. The 7 volumes once available in Selene’s “Great Polish Tradition” series cover just about everything. Not as accomplished and imaginative as Rosenthal, his recordings still possess great historical value as well as moments of beauty and tenderness (he was quite lightweight as a pianist). There are also moments of striking originality, such as in Ballades 1 and 4. He strongly believed that he was representing Chopin’s desired style of playing.
Alexander Michalowski – studied with Mikuli. Father of the Polish piano school. 1 volume, in the same Selene series, is dedicated solely to his recordings; 3 other volumes to those of his pupils. His personal and lively use of rhythm stands out above all (see Sofronitsky below). Very dramatic playing, at times going straight for the jugular.
Edouard Risler – essential listening. Studied with Descombes (a student of Chopin who also taught Cortot and Ravel). He had a voracious musical appetite and played the complete works of Chopin and all of Beethoven’s 32 sonatas (one of the first modern pianists to specialise in cycles apparently). His Mazurka 17/4 and Waltz 64/2 are among the recorded treasures of Chopin pianism. Thanks to Ward Marston all of his recordings (all of which were made in 1917) can now be obtained, in the best possible sound, through Marston’s Lagniappe series on his website.
Alfred Cortot – essential listening. Studied with Descombes. Thankfully the new Cortot series on Naxos from the ever-vigilant Mark Obert-Thorn will make available recordings which have been very poorly served so far. For me, though, Cortot is not the Chopinian many here think he is.
Vladimir de Pachmann – essential listening. Studied with Rubio (Chopin’s last teaching assistant). His recording career ranges from 1907 to 1927. Apparently his on-stage manner was highly eccentric, even absurd, but his notes on Chopin playing are fascinating and his recordings sybaritic in the extreme. Both volumes are available on Arbiter, and hopefully more will come.
Third generation links to Chopin
Vladimir Sofronitsky – essential listening. Studied with Michalowski. He remains unique among all pianists for his intellectual honesty--the design of many of his readings is without precedent--his emotional intensity, spirituality, and his highly personal rhythmic life (at least partly attributable to Michalowski). The 2-CD Denon set (available from Japan) of his live 1949 Chopin performances, and the Russian Piano School set, are mandatory purchases (as is everything he recorded, frankly).
Roza Etkin (sometimes her surname is hyphenated as –Moszkowska) – Michalowski pupil. Placed 3rd in the 1st Chopin Competition (one place ahead of Grigory Ginzburg). As far as I’m aware only two of her Chopin recordings have survived--15/2 and 50/3--and they are of exceptional quality, placing her among true Chopinians.
Vladislav Szpilman (yes, the movie star) – Michalowski pupil. A beautiful, sufficiently lively Mazurka 17/4 shows his skill as a Chopinian (this is one of the true test pieces in Chopin). Sony have just released a tribute set that contains a good deal more Chopin which I haven’t heard yet.
Mischa Levitzki – studied with Michalowski. Chopin recordings available on Naxos. In my opinion they are dull and unimaginative.
Mieczyslaw Horszowski – studied with his mother who was a Mikuli pupil. Later studied with Leschetizky. Keep a look out for the 1940 Vatican recordings on Pearl. Personally I admire his Chopin, but, considering the so-called competition, I do not place it as highly as some here have.
Stefan Askenase – studied with his mother who was a Mikuli pupil. Later studied briefly with Sauer. His complete 1950s Chopin recordings, available in a box-set on DG, show a refined, lightweight pianist with a lovely sense of style and finesse.
Robert Casadesus – studied with Isidor Philipp who’d studied with Georges Mathias, a Chopin pupil. His Chopin playing supports his idea of playing Chopin in the style of Mozart: “simple, free, musically”. His first recording of the four ballades and mazurka 17/4 are available on Pearl (transferred by Winner). They reveal what you’d expect from him – crisp, clear, quite dry playing, not reaching the emotional heart of the pieces. I do not find his later performances on Sony, such as sonata 2, anymore or even as convincing.
Other links to Chopin
Francis Plante – (born 1839) performed chamber music with August Franchomme (who had performed with Chopin). His sole recordings, coming from 1928 and made at the age of 89, are of 7 etudes. They are, at turns, bizarre and illuminating, and inevitably hindered by age.
Other Polish pianists
Ignaz Friedman – essential listening. Studied with Leschetizky. His mazurkas (on Naxos, transferred by Marston) are unique for their earthy, unpredictable rhythms. I have mixed feelings about them (amazing – 7/3, plain bad – 63/3) but they, and the rest of his output, must be heard regardless.
Ignace Tiegerman – essential listening. Studied with Leschetizky and his lessons were prepared by Friedman. Friedman called him the greatest talent he’d ever worked with. His Chopin is divine (and sometimes ferocious). 2-CD Arbiter set, his only extant recordings, and it includes a fascinating article on the search for them. Some people might be interested to know that the late Edward Said was among his pupils in Cairo (and Said mentioned that all of his future teachers combined--and he later studied at Juilliard--didn’t have the talent of Tiegerman’s pinkie).
Severin Esienberger – studied with Leschetizky. Opal/Pearl contains a live recording of his PC 2 which is notable for its strong, exciting and poetic playing (and remarkable for the horrible Cincinnatti Conservatory Orchestra too).
Leopold Godowsky (officially Lithuanian, but historical geographic accuracy in that area--as the Poles well know and exploit--has always been a bit slipshod) – Marston (Records) have just released volume 2 of a planned 3 volume, 2-disc each series which will contain all of his recordings. The Chopin playing, on the surface, can seem disappointing and sober, but it comprises a greater individuality and intellect than initially meets the ear.
Josef Hofmann – essential listening. Again we have Marston to thank for putting out another “complete recordings” series (initially on VAI). His Chopin can sound vulgar at times but is never less than interesting and quite often exceptional. I have a particular soft spot for his PC 1 with NYPO / Barbirolli, a very characteristic performance that perhaps shows him in his best sound.
Ignacy jan Paderewski – essential listening. Another Leschetizky pupil. Later Poland’s Prime Minster. Many of his recordings can be found in the volumes put out by Pearl. As Donald Manildi has said, however, avoid the Philips GPOC series for him (and Hofmann, and pretty much everyone else).
Artur Rubinstein – His Chopin recordings cover such a large period that they are, from beginning to end, essential listening.
Adam Harasiewicz – first prize winner at the fifth Chopin Competition. His recorded output does not reflect such a bright light, however. On Philips exists 1960s recordings of the complete nocturnes and preludes – not recommended by me. A later recording from 1992 on Discover International (sonata 2, 62/1, 47, 54…) does not convince me that he’s improved as a pianist either.
Krystian Zimerman – one of the top Chopin pianists of today. His studio recordings can seem too polished--which is a natural characteristic of his playing, sometimes going too far when he has time in the studio to play around (reminds me of Demidenko)--but live in concert he can be an overwhelming force. His sonatas 2 and 3 are among the best. Worth exploring in full.
Andrzej Wasowski – it is interesting to note that this “authentic” Chopinian has his roots going back to Liszt (both his mother, Princess Maria Wasowska, and his later teacher Margerita Trombini-Kazuro were pupils of pianists who’d studied under Liszt). Later he studied with Wuhrer and Michelangeli among others. He became famous for his mazurkas, for putting the rustic dance back into them and for his subtle observance of beats. More than once he was called the greatest Chopin pianist of modern times. His 1980 recording of the mazurkas is important to hear. I haven’t heard his complete nocturnes yet.
Felicja Blumental – her recordings come from her time in Brazil (‘40s and ‘50s). A mixed disc of mazurkas, nocturnes and polonaises contains good playing but is not recommendable beyond that. I have not heard her waltzes yet.
Josef Turczynski pupils – a subdivision of Polish pianists
Maryla Jonas – essential listening. Thirteenth in the second Chopin Competition. Unique in sound, rhythm, style, womanhood (fascinating life story, much more interesting than Szpilman’s). Her Chopin mazurkas on Pearl (in poor transfers, unfortunately) are among the glories of recorded Chopin pianism.
Halina Czerny-Stefanska – shared first prize (with Bella Davidovich) at the fourth Chopin Competition. There is a well-known story of how her recording of Chopin’s PC 1 was initially mistaken for Lipatti’s. Worth hearing is a disc on Pearl (again, poor transfers courtesy of Roger Beardsley), the Supraphon disc which contains the aforementioned PC 1, and her complete nocturnes on Japanese RCA.
Witold Malcuzynski – placed third in the third Chopin Competition. A strong Chopinian who often reached the soul of the music. Unfortunately mostly everything is out-of-print, but keep an eye out for a 2-CD Disky set which contains sonata 2, polonaises and ballades (and the Rachmaninoff PC 3). Also an EMI 2-CD Artist Profile set, though I think the former is preferable.
Russian Pianists
Josef Lhevinne – essential listening. One of god’s gifts to pianism. The 7 Chopin recordings on Naxos (transferred by Marston) are indisputably some of the greatest ever put down.
Rosina Lhevinne – wife of Josef, a great pianist and teacher (Cliburn, Browning). Her recording of Chopin’s PC 1 (Japanese Vanguard) is notable for its simple beauty and gorgeous tone.
Sergei Rachmaninoff – essential listening. God’s other gift to pianism. Everything he ever put down must be heard.
Heinrich Neuhaus – teacher of so many, he was also an excellent pianist of Romantic composers including Chopin. His 2-CD Denon set (available from Japan) which contains a 1949 all-Chopin recital is worth hearing, as is a Denon CD containing his PC 1.
Stanislav Neuhaus – son of Heinrich, and teacher of Lupu and Engerer. Evidently a highly strung (and highly drinking) virtuoso who was known as a Chopin specialist. All that’s in print Chopin-wise is his very last recital which took place in 1980 (2-CD Denon, from Japan). It contains the four ballades, barcarolle, berceuse, sonata 3 and A-flat major waltz. Very energetic, wild and, unfortunately, quite monochromatic playing. The Largo of the third sonata is notable for its beauty and tenderness.
Leo Sirota (born Kiev) – essential listening. Studied with Busoni. His Chopin disc on Arbiter contains some of the most beautiful and timeless romantic Chopin playing ever caught on record.
Sviatoslav Richter – I have always maintained the position that Richter is not a Chopin pianist. He treats the composer very one-dimensionally in my opinion, and if it were not for his incomparable virtuosity he would not be convincing in the slightest. By no means a natural Chopinian. His recordings range far-and-wide.
Emil Gilels – Much more interesting and intelligent playing here than Richter’s. A very objective pianist who could unleash torrents of emotion when he wished to, as is evinced by his sonata 2. He understood that the third sonata inhabits a totally different world from the second; and, unlike most pianists, he put that understanding into effect. A good PC 1—not quite at the level of the previous two pieces—and a thrilling Ballade 1 mostly round out the repertoire of a pianist I’d never have expected as an excellent Chopinian. Very soon, I’ve heard, Melodiya will release the ‘50s recording of his complete Preludes.
Yakov Fliere – he is here because someone else mentioned him. Undoubtedly a great pianist--his Liszt PC 2 and Khachaturian PC (both with Kondrashin) have no competition--he was not at his best in Chopin. Currently there is a 2-CD Melodiya release of his complete mazurkas. It was how I first heard them, and though quite middle-of-the-road now, it was an excellent intro. Hopefully Melodiya will release much more in the future.
Victor Merzhanov – tenth prize at the fourth Chopin Competition. His sole Chopin on CD is an excellent recording form 1975 of the op. 28 Preludes, available on Vista Vera.
Igor Zhukov (sometimes spelled Shukov)– essential listening. One of the supreme masters. His third sonata and op. 28 preludes are among the most magnificent--and suitably depressing--recordings of the pieces ever made. The preludes are available on Melodiya--with his equally great Scriabn op. 11 preludes--and third sonata from a live Wigmore Hall recital on a Denon DVD. Also hunt around RMCR for alternative live recordings of the above pieces. I hope Melodiya will soon release his earlier op. 58 recording.
Grigory Ginzburg – essential listening. Another of the supreme masters. His op. 25 etudes are the equal of Ashkenazy’s (first recording) and Sokolov’s. His mazurkas are sublime. All available on out-of-print Arlecchino. Hopefully the recent Ginsburg tribute of live recordings (available from Russiandvd.com) will continue with some Chopin.
Benno Moiseiwitsch (born Odessa) – essential listening. Studied with Leschetizky. His Chopin is notable for its immense beauty, lyricism and refinement. The Chopin discs on APR and Pearl are mandatory purchases.
Nikolai Demidenko – not his best recordings. The ballades and sonata 3 are somewhat mannered and perfunctory with only brief flashes of his immense talent. Perhaps best is a mixed disc of polonaises (early and late) with an exceptionally beautiful Berceuse. All available on Hyperion at budget price now.
Grigory Sokolov – essential listening. Probably the greatest living pianist. His op. 25 etudes (op111/Naïve), Polonaise-Fantaisie (radio broadcast) and PC 1 (out-of-print Denon) are as good as it gets. Not a natural Chopinian, but through his incredible versatility and virtuosity he is mostly convincing in the extreme. Other notable performances include the four impromptus (radio broadcast). His nocturnes, sonata 2, sonata 3 and mazurkas are not as convincing, however.
Vladimir Ashkenazy – his pre-Decca recordings are essential listening. Look for his first recording of the complete etudes (BMG/Melodiya or Classound), and the two volumes entitled “The Young Ahskenazy” which were put out by Testament. Later performances do not reach these alpine heights.
Boris Berezovsky – interesting (if sometimes clearly trying to be different) Chopin etudes--not first-rate but worth hearing all the same--and a superb PC 2 (radio broadcast). I haven’t heard his Chopin-Godowsky disc (and probably won’t in the future either) but I have no doubt that he’s one of the top pianists today.
Mikhail Pletnev – a worthwile Chopin disc on DG exists, and in the past he has played a selection of Chopin mazurkas in recital. Best of all, however, is almost certainly the radio broadcast of his op. 28 Preludes – exceptional performance, showing him at his most imaginative best.
Ivo Pogorelich (Russian trained, and included here as there won’t be a Croatian category) – controversial since the beginning, his early (1980) Chopin recordings reveal a fully-formed pianist with an astounding imagination and technique. All of his commercial Chopin (DG) is worth hearing, but for me most amazing have been his recent performances of sonata 3 and nocturnes 55/2 and 62/2 – music stretched to infinity with the most overwhelming emotion and largesse.
Eliso Wirssaladze – exciting and intense (if monochromatic) complete etudes on Live Classics. Her other LC discs, though, have been disappointing – bland pianism, little rhythmic life. I have not heard her scherzi yet. The Russian Piano School CD is a good place to start (and, perhaps, finish).
Samuel Feinberg – one of history’s great Bach pianists, his little Chopin that exists (some mazurkas and ballade 4) is excellent and recognisably old-fashioned (huge amounts of rubato in the ballade).
Bella Davidovich – Born in Baku, Azerbaijan, formerly Soviet Union. Tied for first (with Czerny-Stefanska) in the fourth Chopin Competition (I have a live recording of the two of them playing Chopin’s C Major Rondo for two pianos). So far I am only familiar with her concerti – good but not remarkable readings. I’m looking forward to hearing her preludes and ballades, however.
Lev Oborin – placed first in the first Chopin Competition. In my opinion his third sonata on a Russian Piano School CD is nowhere near deserving of that placing.
Vladimir Tropp – a Denon CD exists which reveals a Michelangeli-like sculpting and temperament. It contains probably the best recording of the second sonata in the past 10 years.
Vladimir Horowitz – his early Chopin recordings (etudes and mazurkas) are superb. Later recordings can be mannered, vulgar, and just outright pointless. The earlier the better in other words. Recordings are spread across quite a few labels, so visit IPAM (International Piano Archives at Maryland) for details.
Alexander Kobrin – 2005 prize winner at the Van Cliburn competition. The Japanese label King International have released a disc of op. 28 and 35 which contains some excellent and imaginative playing. It also contains the first ever commercial recording of Chopin’s “Trill” prelude in E-flat minor.
Nikolai Petrov – a 1989 recording of the ballades and scherzi can be recommended for its stylish playing and fine balance between repose and release.
Alexander Brailowsky (born Kiev) – no less a pianist than Rachmaninoff was deeply impressed by him as a student. Studied with Leschetizky, received advice from Busoni and was influenced by Plante, his early recordings can be beautiful and idiomatic (an early sonata 3 and PC 1). His later performances can sound stiff with an unforgiving sound and lack of poetic imagination. Two of his RCA releases (Brailowsky plays Chopin on 2 CDs, and the disc of the PCs in the Legendary Performers series) are worth hearing.
Shura Cherkassky (born Odessa) – essential listening. Studied with Hofmann and apparently Saperton. Highly individual, very colourful playing, must be heard live to be appreciated. As someone else mentioned, the BBC Legends Chopin disc should be heard. Also his op. 28 Preludes (I intend to hear the Orfeo recording soon) and etudes.
Andrei Gavrilov – highly virtuosic playing which easily turns crude and one-dimensional. He has yet to achieve the depth he’s capable of, though his current recitals of the complete nocturnes may very well reveal that. His recordings are on EMI and DG and his etudes stand out for their stunning technical skill. An all-Chopin recital from ’99 on K&K unfortunately does not show that he’s matured as an artist.
Konstantin Igumnov – his last recital, a live recording from 1947 available on Dante, of him playing the third sonata is messy but quite interesting and beautiful. He was ill then, and it does not reflect his apparent greatness as a pianist.
Simon Barere (born Odessa) – studied with Essipova and Blumenfeld. What you’d call a staggering virtuoso. He could play anything, and played it with an almost idiotic speed. His third scherzo has no competition in terms of virtuosity. The APR Carnegie Hall discs are essential listening for piano aficionados.
Italians
Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli – essential listening. For starters listen to his live sonata 2 on BBC Legends (previously Music & Arts). There’s also a large amount of Chopin included on Aura (15 CD box-set or individual CDs).
Maria Tipo – her complete nocturnes (EMI) are very beautiful indeed – slow, dark yet colourful, very moving. As are her complete ballades live on Aura. Very highly recommended.
Dino Ciani – one of the saddest piano losses of last century occurred when this young Italian died in a car crash. His complete Chopin nocturnes (Agora, with another recording on DG) are among the greatest of all performances. They come from right at the end of his life and could hardly be more Chopinesque. His complete etudes in the Dynamic box-set aren’t as successful.
Aldo Ciccolini – along with Ciani, his complete nocturnes are the most beautiful I’ve heard. This studio recording from 2002, played on a Fazioli, has everything these pieces need: a gorgeous sound, legato, dynamic range, beautiful phrasing, strong, dark emotion and so on. I’m sure they’re Ciccolini’s greatest accomplishment. His live third sonata on Japanese Camerata is excellent too, just not quite such a perfect achievement.
Maurizio Pollini – for me one of the most overrated Chopin pianists. Some of his early recordings are superb, mostly for the passion and perfect technique he exhibited. Later recordings, especially studio efforts, are invariably emotionally empty and vapid, with nothing to offer other than ten fingers. His recent recording of the complete nocturnes is no less disappointing. Better than the recital I heard him play of these in Salzburg, but they are still too linear, too constricted and too unvaried in expression, dynamics and emotion. Not recommended.
Sergio Fiorentino – essential listening. Probably more than anything else recording-wise, I want the release on CD of Fiorentino’s Chopin. He recorded a huge amount (the complete etudes, ballades, impromptus, preludes, waltzes, Polonaise-Fantaisie), almost all during the ‘50s, yet only a tiny fraction is available on CD and most of that from the last ten years of his life. What is available, though, is among the best. His live sonata 2 on APR is astonishing, as is the 64/2 waltz in the same set. His studio third sonata on APR was recorded in a single take (I don’t find it as convincing as the second sonata, though it is remarkable for its beauty of sound and phrasing). I haven’t heard the few Concert Artist discs yet, and cannot, despite serious effort, find the Saga CDs of his complete Nocturnes from 1960.
Romanians
Dinu Lipatti – another pianist I find direly overrated. His Chopin has very little character, his tonal beauty is not remarkable, his rhythmic life is not remarkable, his conceptions are not remarkable, there are simply no distinguishing characteristics in his playing that I can find. Unfortunately, it seems a case of loss begetting unwarranted reputation.
Clara Haskil – it is a good thing that her reputation does not rest on her Chopin, otherwise she’d be in oblivion by now.
Youra Guller – the most notable of the three (and a very attractive woman). Her eleven mazurkas and five nocturnes on Dante are worth hearing for their tonal beauty. A late recording on Nimbus entitled Art of Youra Guller I found almost unlistenable.
French pianists
Samson Francois – a highly individual pianist who studied with Cortot, Long and Lefebure. His performances are thrilling and intense, sometimes aggressive, sometimes mannered, but almost always fascinating and enthralling. Undoubtedly a great artist and pianist.
Jean-Philippe Collard – this excellent Faure pianist also plays some very good Chopin. A French EMI disc containing his four ballades and third sonata shows off stylish, sensitive playing and an excellent technique. I have not heard anything else.
Vlado Perlemuter – born in Poland but moved to France as a child--and studied with Cortot--hence his inclusion here. A very stylish if lightweight third sonata exists on BBC Legends, coupled with op. 28 preludes that I found phlegmatic. I don’t find his Nimbus recordings as convincing as the aforementioned sonata, though the disc of mixed nocturnes has some very lovely moments in it (I don’t think of it as highly as Val does, however).
Cecile Ousset – a 2-CD EMI set of ballades, scherzo, and sonatas 2 and 3 contains good but unremarkable Chopin playing.
Laure Favre-Kahn – Rigutto pupil. Transart contains a recent live performance of the complete waltzes (plus A minor op. post). Very lively, thrilling playing, her rubato sometimes sounds studied and artificial and the piano sound is not always kind to the ear, but the evening itself must have been a very engaging experience (how many pianists can pull off a night of waltzes in recital?).
South American pianists
Rosita Renard – essential listening. Like Arrau and Edwin Fischer, she studied with Martin Krause, a great Liszt pupil. Her January 19 1949 Carnegie Hall recording on VAI contains some astounding Chopin playing – 9 etudes and 2 mazurkas.
Claudio Arrau – essential listening. Krause pupil. His live op. 28 Preludes on APR are among the greatest large-scale Chopin recordings. His live PCs on Music & Arts are also notable, as are his pre-war Chopin recordings available on Marston. I am not convinced by his American Decca recordings—ballades and scherzi, though there’s a great Fantaisie-Impromptu in there—nor by his Philips recordings. His nocturnes are remarkable, but as Herman says, he was even better live and earlier on, and they can border on the ponderous at times.
Martha Argerich – another overrated Chopin pianist in my opinion. Very one-dimensional with little to offer other than dash and verve. Her recordings should be heard, and then be put aside in favour of more colourful and imaginative pianists.
Nelson Freire – an important pianist with a monster technique, he plays in the Argerich vein but with a greater range. His Chopin is worth hearing (preferably live) but certainly is not essential. I have not heard the recent recording of sonata 2 and op. 10 yet.
Guiomar Novaes – her 1949 Town Hall recording, though in awful, almost impenetrable sound, is worth hearing (when it can be heard) for the fervour and beauty of the playing. The two mazurkas and 25/9 etude are particularly great. Her VoxBox Chopin does not reach this level of achievement.
The school of David Saperton and his pupils
David Saperton – Godowsky’s son-in-law, taught a number of excellent Chopin pianists. His complete etudes on VAI--his only surviving Chopin--are highly virtuosic in an old-fashioned manner, with a good deal of textual alterations and so-called romantic indulgences. In a word: vulgar. His freedom with music and the text rubbed off a good deal on his students, though thankfully not to such an intervening and tasteless degree.
Jorge Bolet – probably Saperton’s most famous pupil. The 2-CD Marston set of live Chopin recordings is essential, as it contains a truly loving performance of the third sonata, some sonically luxuriant nocturnes, and thrilling readings of waltz 64/1, waltz in E minor op. posth, and the Andante Spianato e Grand Polonaise. Also unmissable is his 1974 Carnegie Hall recording of Chopin’s op. 28, available in Philips GPOC. His Chopin recordings on Decca should be avoided.
Abbey Simon – his Chopin on VoxBox is definitely worth hearing – a lovely, characterful op. 58 and lively, fascinating performances of the complete etudes. I haven’t heard his complete Nocturnes yet but imagine they’ll be of the same high quality. Like Bolet, he played a Baldwin.
Sidney Foster – just a few small pieces of his Chopin exist from live recitals, available on an IPAM 2-CD set. They warrant hearing though – a fast yet musical 10/4 with an interventionist left-hand; dashing performances of 10/5 and 10/8, and a lovely performance of nocturne 48/1.
Julius Katchen – this is new info to me, but according to IPAM he was a pupil of Saperton’s for a while. Unlike the above three, however, I don’t think his playing reflects this. One of the most exciting virtuosi, the newly released 8-CD Original Masters set contains a disc of his Chopin playing (sonata 2 and 3, Fantaisie, Ballade 3 – previously available in the Australian Art of Katchen series). I wouldn’t rate it quite as highly as the above three, though it’s incredibly exciting and alive playing all the same.
Other Chopin pianists
Dirk Schafer – Dutch pianist. An Opal/Pearl disc contains a good deal of Chopin, revealing an uninspired and uninspiring pianist who had a lovely tone. I imagine he would have been more interesting live, as the notes mention how much he hated recording and needed an audience (perhaps merely a statement to excuse the recordings, however). Probably one of the first pianists to darken the concert hall while playing.
Gyorgy Cziffra – essential listening. Hungarian. A remarkable pianist, notable for his frightening virtuosity, marked individuality, and the personal rhythmic life of his playing. His Chopin, collected in a 5-CD EMI box, should be bought by everyone interested in great pianism.
Natan Brand – essential listening. Israeli-American pianist. Studied with Nadia Reisenberg (Hofmann pupil) and Dorothy Taubman. He was a truly imaginative virtuoso who followed in the line of Anton Rubinstein--both in artistic beliefs and lineage. I hope that the new 2-CD Palexa set achieves its goal of publicising him, because in my opinion he was one of the great virtuosi of last century, a remarkable musician and a pianistic loss for our times on the scale of Ciani’s.
Julian von Karolyi – essential listening. Born in what is now Slovakia. Studied with Cortot and Dohnanyi among others. Ninth prize in the second Chopin Competition. His playing was remarkable for its virtuosity and fecund imagination, as evinced by his op. 28 Preludes, complete etudes, first and second scherzi and a number of other pieces available in an out-of-print 2-CD Arkadia set. On Melodram is available his live PC 2 as well as the same op. 28 preludes and Barcarolle in the Arkadia set.
Ivan Moravec – essential listening. Czech pianist. The beauty of his playing, his refined and elegant phrasing, and his huge tonal palette make for very arresting listening. Every Chopin recording he’s made must be heard (and I admit I haven’t heard his first recording of op. 28 yet).
John Browning – American pianist. Studied with Rosina Lhevinne. A very dry, perhaps even academic style, he had the ability to play anything and his complete etudes on RCA do make for some quite good listening. The recent live Chopin recital on MSR--recorded the night of the Kennedy assassination--while strongly played is again plagued by a rather matter-of-fact quality.
William Kapell – American pianist. Another great loss for music fans in his early death. His recordings of sonatas 2, 3, and the mazurkas are outstanding performances. Anyone interested in Chopin should investigate in full.
Tamas Vasary – Hungarian pianist. Small-scale, lightweight Chopin; middle-of-the-road readings, occasionally beautiful but without notable distinguishing characteristics. His recordings could, possibly, make for a decent introduction to Chopin, but offer little to the seasoned listener.
Van Cliburn – American pianist. Studied with Rosina Lhevinne. Aside from his excellent and very clean sonata 3, I am not familiar with his Chopin performances.
Momo Kodama – Japanese pianist. Studied with Schiff, Nikolaeva, Perahia and Gornostaeva. Her immensely characterful and beautiful Chopin playing can hardly be attributed to her teachers. The disc on Exton contains an astonishing third scherzo, third sonata and fluid impromptus. In her late 20s, she has a great career ahead of her.
Earl Wild – American pianist. I am only familiar with his complete nocturnes, which are plagued by a cartoonish, Disney World-like way of phrasing. When this does not interrupt, however, the playing has moments of great beauty and character.
Paul Badura-Skoda – Austrian pianist. He has said in an interview that in Poland he’s viewed as a Chopin pianist. Based on his four ballades, fantaisie and barcarolle—a disc on Valois recorded in 1992—I don’t for a second believe this. However his readings, played on a 1923 Bosendorfer Imperial, are sometimes engagingly light and clear, and though low-powered they do compensate for this with some notable insights. The sound is quite lovely too.
Pianists who don’t make the cut
Murray Perahia – a distinctly mediocre talent who has been bolstered by 1) media hype, 2) his reputation based upon the pianists he studied with, 3) studio editing. Not recommended.
Nikita Magaloff – same as above. In a word: dull. Avoid.
Alfred Brendel – I recently read that his recording of the Polonaises evoked the quip “Germany invades Poland again”. Very suitable. Avoid.
Piotr Anderszewski – a farce of Chopin playing on his recent Virgin disc. The cover photo pretty much sums up the sad affair. Avoid.
Valery Afanassiev – an even greater farce. His mazurkas make Anderszewski’s sound alive. Haven’t heard the mixed nocturnes yet. Avoid at all costs.
Alexis Weissenberg – aggressive, unforgiving, monochromatic Chopin. Avoid.
Ferruccio Busoni – though I think his Bach Prelude in C is one of the great piano recordings, I also think his Chopin is like a steel trap.
Francois-Rene Duchable – superficial, overly virtuosic Chopin. Nothing to offer emotionally. Avoid.
Nikolai Lugansky – faceless playing on his Erato disc (op. 28 preludes & nocturnes). Haven’t heard the etudes but based on everything else I’ve heard I can’t imagine they’ll be anything special.
Wilhelm Backhaus – should have stuck to Beethoven. Avoid.
Wilhelm Kempff – should have stuck to Beethoven. Avoid.
Freddy Kempf – should have stayed at the conservatory. Avoid.
Post by: ezodisy on January 25, 2009, 01:38:35 PM
You know your coach is mad when Robbie Keane doesn't even make the bench
Post by: Peregrine on January 25, 2009, 01:44:24 PM
oh god what an embarrassment. lol! You owe me a pint
You know your coach is mad when Robbie Keane doesn't even make the bench
Don't be silly, it was(is) a great post, you must have had far too much time on your hands back then...
But you're right, I do owe you a pint!
;D
Don't want to talk about football....
Post by: ezodisy on January 25, 2009, 01:54:10 PM
Don't be silly, it was(is) a great post, you must have had far too much time on your hands back then...
But you're right, I do owe you a pint!
;D
Don't want to talk about football....
lol! Sorry. Some of it is good and useful, I think so, but the bottom is embarrassing and pretty much despicable. Not only is it horribly arrogant, but it sounds like a bad imitation of Dan Koren :'( :'( :'(
I must have written that before hearing Kemal Gekic (who'd go in the Greatest list)
Post by: Peregrine on January 25, 2009, 02:04:00 PM
lol! Sorry. Some of it is good and useful, I think so, but the bottom is embarrassing and pretty much despicable. Not only is it horribly arrogant, but it sounds like a bad imitation of Dan Koren :'( :'( :'(
I must have written that before hearing Kemal Gekic (who'd go in the Greatest list)
Ha! Ha! Yes, it is quite 'Koren-esque', nowt wrong with that! ;)
Good to see your views on Afanassiev's Chopin haven't changed! I've still got the Denon CD with his selection of Mazurkas, utterly bizarre, but can't let it go for some strange reason...
Post by: Peregrine on January 25, 2009, 02:14:02 PM
Momo Kodama – Japanese pianist. Studied with Schiff, Nikolaeva, Perahia and Gornostaeva. Her immensely characterful and beautiful Chopin playing can hardly be attributed to her teachers. The disc on Exton contains an astonishing third scherzo, third sonata and fluid impromptus. In her late 20s, she has a great career ahead of her.
Not a pianist I'm familiar with, is this the disc you were originally referring to?:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chopin-Piano-Sonata-No-Scherzo/dp/B0013GBD9W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1232921419&sr=1-1
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41fJ2I7MlZL._SS400_.jpg)
Post by: aquablob on January 25, 2009, 02:34:27 PM
sidoze...
So have you checked out any more of Earl Wild's Chopin yet? Ballades/Scherzi or the Etudes? I know what you mean about his phrasing, but I think he offers a unique take on most of these pieces. Whether or not it "works" is up to the listener, I suppose, but I tend to find his interpretations convincing. I like his Op. 52 quite a bit (maybe not my #1 favorite).
Glad you agree with me on Cziffra and Michelangeli, too!
Post by: ezodisy on January 25, 2009, 02:48:30 PM
Not a pianist I'm familiar with, is this the disc you were originally referring to?:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chopin-Piano-Sonata-No-Scherzo/dp/B0013GBD9W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1232921419&sr=1-1
yeah that's the one, they re-released it and it's quite easy to get now. Her Messiaen Vingt Regards are pretty amazing too in perfect sound, one of the best recordings IMO. I have the Chopin CD and will copy it, awesome scherzo 3 IMO. Will take a week or two for me to get the disc though.
aquarius, nope only Wild's Nocturnes, which I still think have a strange bubblegum flavour (can't find any other way to describe it). The phrasing seems gimmicky to me.
I'd probably take back that comment about "Tropp--best 2nd sonata in past 10 years". I heard it last year and wasn't really impressed. Without a doubt the most characterful 2nd sonata in the past 20-odd years is by Natan Brand IMO.
Anyway it's not really important. All these different readings means there's a lot to enjoy
Post by: aquablob on January 25, 2009, 03:00:33 PM
Anyway it's not really important. All these different readings means there's a lot to enjoy
No doubt.
Post by: Holden on January 25, 2009, 03:37:58 PM
Yes, I would add Gekich to the list and I suppose that you'll have to write up Blechaz as well.
There is one notable, but not surprising omission in your survey (you may differ, of course). His recorded Chopin output just fills up one CD yet this is some of the best Chopin playing I've ever heard. I'm talking about Solomon Cutner, better known for his perusal of the classical period repertoire. I'm not sure if you've heard this but can I strongly suggest that you do. It was you, Tony, that put me onto Sokolov and one or two others so I'm trying to return the favour.
Post by: ezodisy on January 26, 2009, 12:31:19 AM
A great repost so please don't delete it.
Yes, I would add Gekich to the list and I suppose that you'll have to write up Blechaz as well.
There is one notable, but not surprising omission in your survey (you may differ, of course). His recorded Chopin output just fills up one CD yet this is some of the best Chopin playing I've ever heard. I'm talking about Solomon Cutner, better known for his perusal of the classical period repertoire. I'm not sure if you've heard this but can I strongly suggest that you do. It was you, Tony, that put me onto Sokolov and one or two others so I'm trying to return the favour.
Cheers Holden. I didn't get around to buying that CD -- had heard the Berceuse and a ballade (4?) on a mixed disc but I think that's it. Will check it out some day, not listening to much Chopin lately, except for some old favourites. I suppose Nelson Goerner, a pianist Maciek has been mentioning lately, would be another to check out
Post by: George on January 26, 2009, 03:30:06 AM
Maria Tipo – her complete nocturnes (EMI) are very beautiful indeed – slow, dark yet colourful, very moving. As are her complete ballades live on Aura. Very highly recommended.
I certainly agree about the Nocturnes. As for the Balllades, this release on Aura, I assume it's her 1979 performance? I have her live Ballades on Ermitage and was wondering if they are the same. The ballades are paired with the LvB Op 109 and a Mozart sonata.
Post by: ezodisy on January 26, 2009, 03:47:51 AM
I certainly agree about the Nocturnes. As for the Balllades, this release on Aura, I assume it's her 1979 performance? I have her live Ballades on Ermitage and was wondering if they are the same. The ballades are paired with the LvB Op 109 and a Mozart sonata.
Yeah dude it's the same one. Ermitage/Aura recordings are usually the same (I think Aura took over the rights later, something like that). The Ballades are very good but the Nocturnes are special. Some guy on YT uploaded a recording of her playing an excerpt of Schumann's Sym Etudes, I can't find it anywhere, so if you see that recording please let me know. Cheers
Post by: George on January 26, 2009, 03:49:57 AM
Yeah dude it's the same one. Ermitage/Aura recordings are usually the same (I think Aura took over the rights later, something like that). The Ballades are very good but the Nocturnes are special. Some guy on YT uploaded a recording of her playing an excerpt of Schumann's Sym Etudes, I can't find it anywhere, so if you see that recording please let me know. Cheers
Will do.
I won't hold my breath, but EMI really should do a box of her recordings, especially seeing as they are so poorly distributed.
Post by: ezodisy on January 26, 2009, 11:45:53 PM
Post by: Herman on January 27, 2009, 01:36:34 AM
yeah that's the one, they re-released it and it's quite easy to get now. Her Messiaen Vingt Regards are pretty amazing too in perfect sound, one of the best recordings IMO. I have the Chopin CD and will copy it, awesome scherzo 3 IMO. Will take a week or two for me to get the disc though.
compared to some exciting live Chopin 3ds I thought the Kodama 3d sounded a little too studio-perfect. I know it's an unfair comparison.
Similarly her 3d scherzo is beautifully done, but I fail to be moved by its perfection. It's as if there's no dark side. Maybe that's why I think the impromptus are the best part of this cd.
Post by: ezodisy on January 27, 2009, 02:12:43 AM
Post by: Herman on January 27, 2009, 02:13:39 AM
Post by: ezodisy on January 27, 2009, 02:26:38 AM
(high five;
on the flip side)
-Puddy, Seinfeld
Post by: George on January 27, 2009, 03:32:54 AM
I've been told that Gekic will have 2 new CDs this summer, one of French music and one of the Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff PC 2s. I suspect the French disc would include Ravel's Gaspard which he played during his last tour of Japan
This is very good news! Thanks for the info!
Post by: Mandryka on February 01, 2009, 12:42:05 AM
Can any of you guys give me some advice about Shura Cherkassky?
I own two Chopin CDs of his -- the Etudes and the two sonatas. I love all the Etudes and the Second sonata, and I want to hear more.
But people tell me that he was very variable -- sometimes he doesn't pull it off.
Are there any other Cherkassky recordings which you can recommend?
Post by: George on February 01, 2009, 05:27:04 AM
Hi
Can any of you guys give me some advice about Shura Cherkassky?
I own two Chopin CDs of his -- the Etudes and the two sonatas. I love all the Etudes and the Second sonata, and I want to hear more.
But people tell me that he was very variable -- sometimes he doesn't pull it off.
Are there any other Cherkassky recordings which you can recommend?
Hi Mandryka!
I listened to this one this week and loved it:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uNOj2zQeL._SS500_.jpg)
I haven't heard anything else by the pianist.
Post by: Mandryka on February 01, 2009, 07:08:20 AM
Hi Mandryka!
I listened to this one this week and loved it. . .
Interesting. I'll get that CD.
I guess you haven't tried this one in the same series.
Gould, Haskil and Cherkassky play K331, and I thought Cherkassky was the best! The Gilels is good too.
Post by: George on February 01, 2009, 07:18:12 AM
Interesting. I'll get that CD.
I guess you haven't tried this one in the same series.
I haven't tried it, no. I actually only have one comparison CDs like like that, on Aura. At the time I thought "what a great idea," but since I never listen to it, I haven't bought any others in that vein.
Let me know what you think of that Orfeo disc.
Post by: sporkadelic on February 01, 2009, 12:03:01 PM
Beata Bilinska
Bogdan Czapiewski
Chie Mori
Halina Czerny Stefanska
Jaroslaw Drzewiecki
Karol Radziwonowicz
Kevin Kenner
Krzysztof Jablonski
Mi Joo Lee
Philippe Giusiano
Rem Urasin
Sa Chen
Tatiana Shebanova
Wojciech Switala
Zbigniew Raubo
Roland Bader
Krakow State Philharmony
Now, my question is about Czerny-Stefanska. Which recordings of hers are in this set? Something licensed from RCA Japan, or Pony Canyon, or Muza, or... ??
http://www.imc-music.net/webshop/detail/special/IMCM8101_16.html
Thanks for any help!
Post by: ezodisy on February 01, 2009, 12:10:58 PM
Hi
Can any of you guys give me some advice about Shura Cherkassky?
I still haven't heard it, but also on Orfeo (same label George posted) there's a different release which contains a live op. 28 Preludes. Supposed to be outstanding and quite special
Post by: Coopmv on February 01, 2009, 06:07:22 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/3186AYGDSYL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 01, 2009, 10:21:24 PM
Are there any other Cherkassky recordings which you can recommend?
There are two I can recommend.
The GPOTC set includes the etudes (1953-55), the preludes (1968), the 3rd sonata (1985), plus misc pieces:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HFKREJW3L._SS500_.jpg)
The DG disc is invaluable for a great Polonaise-Fantaisie:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZBXWJ22FL._SS500_.jpg)
Post by: Mandryka on February 01, 2009, 10:32:31 PM
Post by: Herman on February 02, 2009, 11:49:36 AM
The Orfeo is a 2cd, too, and the other pieces are Bach's BWV 830 e minor partita; Brahms Sonata op 5; Liszt 2nd Polonaise and a piece by the (then) contemporary composer Bennett.
The Chopin Preludes are wonderful. They are about the polar opposite of Arrau's Prague Spring interpretation: light instead of dark, but quite good.
Post by: Mandryka on February 02, 2009, 12:24:29 PM
any idea if the GPOC has the identical live recording of the Preludes as on the Orefo (Slazburg Aug 3, 1968)? In that case the former is rather more attractive.
The Orfeo is a 2cd, too, and the other pieces are Bach's BWV 830 e minor partita; Brahms Sonata op 5; Liszt 2nd Polonaise and a piece by the (then) contemporary composer Bennett.
The Chopin Preludes are wonderful. They are about the polar opposite of Arrau's Prague Spring interpretation: light instead of dark, but quite good.
Hey Herman,
What is the Arrau Prague Spring interpretation? I can only see one live concert CD of the Preludes, but an amazon review suggests it's from Salzburg.
Post by: Drasko on February 02, 2009, 12:30:25 PM
What is the Arrau Prague Spring interpretation? I can only see one live concert CD of the Preludes, but an amazon review suggests it's from Salzburg.
http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Preludes-Schumann-Symphonic-Etudes/dp/B00005B6AK
Post by: Mandryka on February 02, 2009, 12:40:20 PM
http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Preludes-Schumann-Symphonic-Etudes/dp/B00005B6AK
Ahhh ... Thanks :)
Post by: Herman on February 02, 2009, 01:36:50 PM
Post by: ezodisy on February 02, 2009, 01:43:18 PM
No idea about the Cherkassky
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 02, 2009, 06:22:47 PM
any idea if the GPOC has the identical live recording of the Preludes as on the Orefo (Slazburg Aug 3, 1968)? In that case the former is rather more attractive.
I wish I could help but the GPOTC doesn't list anything beyond the year (1968). No day/month, nor the location.
The copyright information states these preludes are the same as what appeared on ASV in 1996. By coincidence I actually have that ASV disc but sadly it's no help either as again all that's listed is the year. So whether these are the same as Orfeo I have no idea.
I'm listening to them right now and they don't sound live. No audience noise or rustling between movements. And if there's applause at the end it's been lopped off. They do sound perfectly spontaneous and they've been well recorded. If that helps.
Post by: ezodisy on February 03, 2009, 04:23:30 AM
Post by: George on February 03, 2009, 05:49:01 AM
George you're a big Rudolf Serkin fan. Did you ever hear his recording of Chopin's Preludes? I think Distler reviewed & raved about them. I haven't heard them, just curious
No, I haven't. If you get more info, let me know?
Outside of Beethoven, Serkin hasn't really wowed me actually, but I am open to hearing his Chopin.
Post by: Herman on February 03, 2009, 06:06:17 AM
I'm listening to them right now and they don't sound live. No audience noise or rustling between movements. And if there's applause at the end it's been lopped off. They do sound perfectly spontaneous and they've been well recorded. If that helps.
In the Orfeo there is a moment, toward the end of the 2nd prelude that it becomes a duet for piano and piano stool. Same thing at the beginning of the 7th. And nr 9 is rather shaky.
Post by: ezodisy on February 03, 2009, 06:24:39 AM
No, I haven't. If you get more info, let me know?
Outside of Beethoven, Serkin hasn't really wowed me actually, but I am open to hearing his Chopin.
I think the disc is available commercially (or it was released as part of a biography on him, can't remember which or if both). Either way i can't imagine him as a Chopin pianist which is why I asked. Distler seemed quite impressed though. I'll try to track it down
Post by: aquablob on February 03, 2009, 06:45:47 AM
I think the disc is available commercially (or it was released as part of a biography on him, can't remember which or if both). Either way i can't imagine him as a Chopin pianist which is why I asked. Distler seemed quite impressed though. I'll try to track it down
A year or two ago I found a website somewhere with 30-second preview clips of Serkin's preludes.
Unfortunately, I don't remember at all what they were like.
So basically, this post is totally pointless. :)
Post by: George on February 03, 2009, 07:25:32 AM
I think the disc is available commercially (or it was released as part of a biography on him, can't remember which or if both). Either way i can't imagine him as a Chopin pianist which is why I asked. Distler seemed quite impressed though. I'll try to track it down
Yeah, I agree that Chopin is not a composer that I think Serkin would excel in. The preludes were rerl;eased in that mid-priced "Art of Interpretation" series on Sony, now OOP. Amazon has a few copies: http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B0002F4C84/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?_encoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
There's a long review in there too.
I don't think I'd ever buy it for that price, but if I find it in the bins I'll give it a try. However, I am not always in agreement with Distler's impressions.
Post by: George on February 03, 2009, 08:27:47 AM
I am noticing how my tastes have evolved compared to when I last answered to a query like this.
Ballades: Ashkenazy, Barere.
Etudes: Ciani, Gavrilov, Cortot, Sokolov(op25)
Impromptus: Rubinstein, Sokolov
Mazurkas: Luisada Complete set, Sofronitsky, Kapell
Nocturnes: Tipo, Rubinstein, Moravec, Ciani
Barcarolle: Arrau, Cherkassy, Freire
Fantasie op 49 : Arrau, Cherkassy,
PS 2: Brand, Ashkenazy, Sokolov
PS 3: Sokolov, Chekassy
Preludes: Zhukov, Ashkenazy, Bolet, Pletnev, Sofronitsky
Waltzes: Rubinstein, Ashkenazy, Cortot
PC's: too many to name :P
I'm curious, are picks still the same almost 2 years later?
Post by: orbital on February 03, 2009, 10:18:38 AM
I'm curious, are picks still the same almost 2 years later?I was pondering on the question... then I saw this on top of the page and had a Zen awakening 0:)
What I've been missing all this time :'(
(seriously, I have to give your question some thought. I will reply soon George)
Post by: George on February 03, 2009, 10:21:12 AM
I was pondering on the question... then I saw this on top of the page and had a Zen awakening 0:)
ROTFL ;D
Post by: jwinter on February 03, 2009, 12:01:42 PM
Yeah, I agree that Chopin is not a composer that I think Serkin would excel in. The preludes were rerl;eased in that mid-priced "Art of Interpretation" series on Sony, now OOP. Amazon has a few copies: http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B0002F4C84/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?_encoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
There's a long review in there too.
I don't think I'd ever buy it for that price, but if I find it in the bins I'll give it a try. However, I am not always in agreement with Distler's impressions.
I actually have that, but it's been ages since I listened to it. Didn't realize it was so rare! I'll give it a spin in the next day or two.
If anybody is truly interested in hearing it, shoot me a PM. I have no experience with uploading files, but I'm sure we could figure something out. :)
Post by: Drasko on February 03, 2009, 04:26:05 PM
Didn't realize it was so rare! I'll give it a spin in the next day or two.
If anybody is truly interested in hearing it, shoot me a PM.
No, can't say that I'm truly interested in hearing it, but anyhow doesn't seem to be that rare, just double listing on amazon, here's one with clips:
http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Préludes-Op-Unreleased-Recording/dp/B0007N1A3G (http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Préludes-Op-Unreleased-Recording/dp/B0007N1A3G)
Post by: George on February 03, 2009, 04:40:03 PM
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 03, 2009, 07:17:38 PM
In the Orfeo there is a moment, toward the end of the 2nd prelude that it becomes a duet for piano and piano stool. Same thing at the beginning of the 7th. And nr 9 is rather shaky.
I gave these spots a going over and nothing glaring sticks out. No bench noise and 9 has no gaffs I can detect.
Judging by this it appears these preludes are not the same as Orfeo.
Post by: Mandryka on February 04, 2009, 05:00:11 AM
Mikhail Pletnev – a worthwile Chopin disc on DG exists, and in the past he has played a selection of Chopin mazurkas in recital. Best of all, however, is almost certainly the radio broadcast of his op. 28 Preludes – exceptional performance, showing him at his most imaginative best.
The more I hear Pletnev's two Chopin discs on DG, the more I appreciate what he has achieved there. Quite unique, creative Chopin playing, I think. Intense and colourful. Even his third sonata -- which initially I found challenging -- has grown on me.
But what is this radio broadcast? I'd be very keen to hear it. Is there a link?
Post by: Herman on February 04, 2009, 05:24:57 AM
The extraordinary thing was that Pletnev seemed to have shaken all his irritating tics and ideosyncrasies during the intermission. The Preludes were wonderful. I'm not sure I have ever heard such a succesful finale to the entire opus (I count the last three preludes as the finale), those G sharp dissonants in the last couple of bars of nr 24 hitting you on the chin like some shattering doom (pardon my purple prose).
A couple weeks later there was a radio broadcast.
I don't need to rely on my memory for this because at that time Tony used to have the whole world of music downloads at his fingertips and he sent me a cdr of this broadcast.
Pletnev's next Amsterdam recital, if I recall, was all Chopin, and it was unbearable. Every note was funny, strange and twisted out of shape, and so was I after one-and-a-half hour of squirming in my seat. I made a vow never to go to a Pletnev recital again.
Post by: jwinter on February 04, 2009, 06:42:35 AM
I forgot I even had this, my very first Chopin CD, from at least 15 years ago:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51sJW4RaNZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I still think it's a fine disc, though it doesn't include the whole set. Vasary's interpretations seem rather middle of the road, but beautifully played -- quite enjoyable, although certainly no match for Rubinstein, Moravec, or Arrau. I see that there are a couple of those Universal trios with Vasary's Chopin -- any opinions?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/216159VW2AL._SL500_AA180_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510GYFS5H1L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Post by: George on February 04, 2009, 06:52:42 AM
I see that there are a couple of those Universal trios with Vasary's Chopin -- any opinions?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/216159VW2AL._SL500_AA180_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510GYFS5H1L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I've pondered those trios a number of times, J, but never bought one. I have also owned that single CD you mentioned before as well, so I know what you mean about his playing.
David Dubal on Vasary (and his Chopin) - "he is a poet-pianist, a dreamy bard. For him music must first be beautiful. It must also be Romantic and emotional...Chopin is never far from his field. His multicolored imagination depicts this artful literature with all kinds of felicitous lingerings. He can also become over-refined; Vasary can suspend a not for so long that one wonders if the phrase will continue. In his quest for free improvised art, he occasionally gets caught up in detail and hovers dangerously at the brink of arrhythmic action, where formlessness lurks."
Post by: ezodisy on February 04, 2009, 07:20:03 AM
I don't need to rely on my memory for this because at that time Tony used to have the whole world of music downloads at his fingertips and he sent me a cdr of this broadcast.
lol! Yeah at that time we had Chopin coming out of our ears. I think the performance is incredible, there's no other reading even remotely like it. If anyone would like a copy let me know, I have one uploaded in flac.
Vasary's interpretations seem rather middle of the road, but beautifully played -- quite enjoyable, although certainly no match for Rubinstein, Moravec, or Arrau.
You answered your own question there. They're a good intro to Chopin, nicely played, nothing to put any listener off yet enough to make the music sound quite beautiful. Not really needed once you get into other interpretations however.
Post by: Mandryka on February 04, 2009, 07:46:08 AM
Pletnev's next Amsterdam recital, if I recall, was all Chopin, and it was unbearable. Every note was funny, strange and twisted out of shape, and so was I after one-and-a-half hour of squirming in my seat. I made a vow never to go to a Pletnev recital again.
I know Pletnev performances are very variable.
I once heard him do Scarlatti sonatas in the Wigmore Hall, and it was just terrible. Mediochre. Dull.
But the CDs are interesting -- I like them very much.
Post by: Mandryka on February 05, 2009, 10:14:56 PM
Comments on performance and sound appreciated!
Post by: Drasko on February 06, 2009, 01:58:36 AM
Does enyone know this Michelangeli recording -- Turin 1962?
To my knowledge all 1962 Turin recordings come from RAI studio televised sessions and all subsequent audio only releases are better or worse transfers of these TV tapes (Cetra-Teldec-Apex being the worst).
So, unless I'm mistaken and he played some extra concerts beyond TV sessions:
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/33/335953.JPG) = (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RGD1WCEZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (+ Second Sonata and Fantasie)
Post by: ezodisy on February 06, 2009, 10:49:43 AM
Here's my favourite Gilels disc.
No one does the...Chopin better -- in my opinion.
Mandryka, for the second sonata there are severeal outstanding performances.
Natan Brand on Palexa
Ginzburg on Euromusica (100th anniversary, the one Rubio just bought)
Michelangeli either in Prague (Praga) or Prato (Diapason)
Fiorentino on APR
Rachmaninoff (of course)
The Gilels is a good one though, and of course there are other ones
Post by: Mandryka on February 06, 2009, 01:30:47 PM
Mandryka, for the second sonata there are severeal outstanding performances.
Natan Brand on Palexa
Ginzburg on Euromusica (100th anniversary, the one Rubio just bought)
Michelangeli either in Prague (Praga) or Prato (Diapason)
Fiorentino on APR
Rachmaninoff (of course)
The Gilels is a good one though, and of course there are other ones
I knew I'd get into trouble for saying that.
Post by: Coopmv on February 06, 2009, 08:02:47 PM
Post by: Herman on February 07, 2009, 12:18:14 AM
The most obvious comprehensive recommendation would be Rubinstein.
If you're interested in a particular genre, sonatas, mazurkas, nocturnes, scherzi, the picture gets more detailed.
Post by: Coopmv on February 07, 2009, 05:25:08 AM
I've pondered those trios a number of times, J, but never bought one. I have also owned that single CD you mentioned before as well, so I know what you mean about his playing.
David Dubal on Vasary (and his Chopin) - "he is a poet-pianist, a dreamy bard. For him music must first be beautiful. It must also be Romantic and emotional...Chopin is never far from his field. His multicolored imagination depicts this artful literature with all kinds of felicitous lingerings. He can also become over-refined; Vasary can suspend a not for so long that one wonders if the phrase will continue. In his quest for free improvised art, he occasionally gets caught up in detail and hovers dangerously at the brink of arrhythmic action, where formlessness lurks."
I have both and they are quite delightful ...
Post by: Coopmv on February 07, 2009, 05:31:06 AM
Good middle-of-the-road Chopin. I'd look for more interesting performances.
The most obvious comprehensive recommendation would be Rubinstein.
If you're interested in a particular genre, sonatas, mazurkas, nocturnes, scherzi, the picture gets more detailed.
I already have the Rubinstein's 11-CD set on the RCA Gold Seal. Excellent recordings!
Post by: Herman on February 07, 2009, 07:35:48 AM
For some ideas and suggestions about Chopin recordings you could also cherrypick the old Fighting over Chopin thread.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,38.0.html
Hilariously you can just google the words "Fighting over Chopin" and it's right there.
I guess no one has ever fought over Chopin before.
Post by: Mandryka on February 07, 2009, 08:05:22 AM
Who does the best Revolutionary Etude?
Post by: Coopmv on February 07, 2009, 08:42:23 AM
Didya know there are two Testament cd's with pre-Decca recordings by Ashkenazy?
For some ideas and suggestions about Chopin recordings you could also cherrypick the old Fighting over Chopin thread.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,38.0.html
Hilariously you can just google the words "Fighting over Chopin" and it's right there.
I guess no one has ever fought over Chopin before.
Indeed, we are not talking about Richard Wagner or Herbert von Karajan ...
Post by: Coopmv on February 07, 2009, 08:54:06 AM
Post by: George on February 07, 2009, 08:57:37 AM
So besides the Rubinstein's set, which other set is worth collecting?
Being someone who likes to collect by buying sets, in the case of Chopin I don't think it is wise to collect Chopin in this manner.
That said, I enjoy much of Ashkenazy's Decca set.
I wish Moravec recorded everthing, that would be sweet.
Post by: Coopmv on February 07, 2009, 09:03:32 AM
Being someone who likes to collect by buying sets, in the case of Chopin I don't think it is wise to collect Chopin in this manner.
That said, I enjoy much of Ashkenazy's Decca set.
I wish Moravec recorded everthing, that would be sweet.
I believe the Decca set you have includes the 3 double-decker sets issued individually. No?
Post by: ezodisy on February 07, 2009, 09:07:34 AM
Hi,
Who does the best Revolutionary Etude?
I recall a rather different reading from Malcuzynski which is on a live Aura disc. Does anyone have that? I'd like to hear it again
Post by: Peregrine on February 07, 2009, 09:09:11 AM
So besides the Rubinstein's set, which other set is worth collecting?
I think that if you are going to get (or are!) serious about collecting the cream of Chopin recordings, then you're best off avoiding going down the box set route.
Rubinstein is the exception, but even then, as fine as his recordings are (and there are plenty!), there is so much more out there. Check out this thread in it's entirety, pay particular attention to ezodisey's long-winded, but eminent re-post (by me). Have a gander over at RMCR and you'll soon start seeing the same familiar recs come up. Try and see, you may not like all that you purchase, but bound to find some that float your boat.
Another boxset I will also mention is the Cziffra on EMI and whilst it's not a comprehensive set of Chopin of recordings, it has some stellar playing that many find irresistible, myself included. Askenase has a box on DG that has quite a full selection - nicely played, he certainly had a natural feel for the composer, but personally find it a bit lightweight and prissy, although kept the waltzes as enjoyed them a fair bit.
Post by: George on February 07, 2009, 09:09:50 AM
I believe the Decca set you have includes the 3 double-decker sets issued individually. No?
I actually don't have the set, I own 5 Double Decca issues. Not sure if there were others.
I can easily think of recordings that I prefer ahead of Ashkenazy's in every genre though, except for some of the Polonaises.
What do you currently own, outside the Rubinstein and Argerich Box sets?
Post by: George on February 07, 2009, 09:12:29 AM
Rubinstein is the exception, but even then, as fine as his recordings are (and there are plenty!), there is so much more out there.
Good advice! I would say that Rubinstein's Chopin was very good, but I still do not find him to be my favorite for any of the Chopin works, except for maybe bercuese.
Post by: ezodisy on February 07, 2009, 09:16:48 AM
ezodisey's long-winded
wtf? lol!
As the Yanks say: DE-FENCE, DE-FENCE! lol!
Quote
Another boxset I will also mention is the Cziffra on EMI and whilst it's not a comprehensive set of Chopin of recordings, it has some stellar playing that many find irresistible, myself included. Askenase has a box on DG that has quite a full selection - nicely played, he certainly had a natural feel for the composer, but personally find it a bit lightweight and prissy, although kept the waltzes as enjoyed them a fair bit.
Yeah that Cziffra box is a great choice IMO (http://operawebclub.com/papageno/style_emoticons/default/good.gif)
I always forget about that Askenase set. He had quite a distinctive style in Chopin, though it is more on the feminine side for sure (not that there's anything wrong with that)
Post by: George on February 07, 2009, 09:25:34 AM
My favorite Chopin pianists never recorded a full set of Chopin works, if they did, I would surely recommend them.
Kemal Gekic (a number of live Chopin performances), Maria Tipo (live Ballades on Ermitage), Ivan Moravec (Nocturnes, Preludes, Ballades, Scherzi, various Mazurkas), Luisada (Mazurkas), Wasowski (Mazurkas), Ivo Pogorelich, Ashkenazy (both recordings of the Etudes, Polonaises), Richter (various etudes), Cziffra's EMI recordings.
Friedman's Mazurkas on Naxos or Pearl, Cortot (on Naxos, 5 CD), Backhaus (first recording of the etudes on Pearl.)
The more I think about this, the more I think that assembling a separate historical and contemporary set would be wise.
Post by: Renfield on February 07, 2009, 09:33:44 AM
So besides the Rubinstein's set, which other set is worth collecting?
In my opinion, and even though it's apparently out of fashion, the Cortot set from EMI is mandatory listening.
Yes, old, perhaps the remastering is an issue to some, though I love it - but I would easily(!) rank it even higher than Rubinstein's. It's what I'd be taking with me to Navneeth's desert island if I could keep only one Chopin set, and I'd still feel like I've profited from the deal. ;)
In short, I recommend it with nary a second thought; but of course "your mileage may vary", etc.
Edit: An important note on the Naxos Cortot issues is that they do not (AFAIK) include the 1933 set of the Preludes, or - more importantly - the 1931 3rd Sonata. Of course, the 1933 Preludes aren't in the aforementioned set either, but on the "Great Recordings of the 20th Century" series.
But I could be wrong on the Preludes and Naxos. I've still to properly index those discs... ::)
Post by: aquablob on February 07, 2009, 09:38:55 AM
Hi,
Who does the best Revolutionary Etude?
Funny you should ask. My wife and I did a listening test of various recordings of this piece a few months ago (it's her favorite etude). Of the dozen or so recordings that we have, we both ended up favoring Cziffra here (from the 1962 recordings of the complete Opp. 10 and 25, not his less magical 1981 take... the 1962 is available on the 5-CD set others have been mentioning).
That's just our opinion, though; we discovered that we both prefer this one to be played rather frenetically (we also like Richter here quite a bit).
Post by: George on February 07, 2009, 09:41:37 AM
Post by: Peregrine on February 07, 2009, 09:42:04 AM
Good advice! I would say that Rubinstein's Chopin was very good, but I still do not find him to be my favorite for any of the Chopin works, except for maybe bercuese.
I think it may be easy to almost dismiss Rubinstein, or take him for granted (and I'm not suggesting you are BTW), prolific as he was with Chopin. The more recordings I buy however, the more I realise what a great interpreter he was, whichever of the three 'phases' of his recordings you care to pull recordings from.
Post by: George on February 07, 2009, 09:53:22 AM
I think it may be easy to almost dismiss Rubinstein, or take him for granted (and I'm not suggesting you are BTW), prolific as he was with Chopin. The more recordings I buy however, the more I realise what a great interpreter he was, whichever of the three 'phases' of his recordings you care to pull recordings from.
If I had to sell of my Chopin collection, his CDs would not be the first to go, but certainly not the last either. I own many individual performances of Chopin that I enjoy better than his. This isn't to say that they are better than him, just that I enjoy them more. If I assembled my own set of Chopin works (one performance per work), the only one of his that I would include would be his bercuese. That RCA performance touched me deeply and made me sit up and take notice.
There's a part of me that thinks that I "should" like him more, just like I "should" like Kempff's mono LvB. That part of me got me to give them a number of opportunities to connect with me. After a number of tries, I can say that I haven't grown to love Rubinstein's Chopin. I'll continue to give him a try, but there's so many other great Chopin interpreters that I enjoy without all the extra work that I am less and less motivated to return to performances that I don't thoroughly enjoy.
Post by: Herman on February 07, 2009, 11:18:38 AM
I'd start looking for Moravec's Chopin recordings.
I'd start prepapring for the purchase of the Arrau Preludes on APR, Fiorentino's 3d sonata on APR and that great recital of Sofronitsky's on Denon. Those are three discs that'll last you a long time.
Speaking of Rubinstein, I'd say the core of his Chopin are the Mazurkas, and I'm very sorry but you need at least two incarnations of his Mazurkas.
Post by: Peregrine on February 07, 2009, 11:23:51 AM
Speaking of Rubinstein, I'd say the core of his Chopin are the Mazurkas, and I'm very sorry but you need at least two incarnations of his Mazurkas.
That's the unfortunate conclusion my wallet has come to. I've owned the stereo set for a long time, but keep toying with the 1950's set, particularly as I can't see it remaining in print for too long...
Post by: Herman on February 07, 2009, 11:30:12 AM
Post by: Holden on February 07, 2009, 12:51:15 PM
I recall a rather different reading from Malcuzynski which is on a live Aura disc. Does anyone have that? I'd like to hear it again
Yes, I do. The disc has some excellent Brahms, some mediocre LvB and the obligatory Chopin including the Revolutionary Etude. PM me if interested.
The fastest and most exciting Op 10/12 is the one by Richter on BBC Legends. There is a slightly less intense performance available on video and I think someone has Youtubed this.
Finally I'm going to disagree (Fighting over Chopin) with all the knockers of box sets for Chopin. Either the Ashkenazy or Rubinstein set would be an excellent place to start for beginners. Sure, there are probably better performances out there but both sets are consistently good. I'd never get rid of any of my Rubinstein.
Post by: rubio on February 07, 2009, 02:08:59 PM
The beauty is the middle set won't make the stereo mazurkas superfluous; you'll listen to both.
And how does the early set stack up to the two later ones?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 07, 2009, 06:08:47 PM
Funny you should ask. My wife and I did a listening test of various recordings of this piece a few months ago (it's her favorite etude). Of the dozen or so recordings that we have, we both ended up favoring Cziffra here (from the 1962 recordings of the complete Opp. 10 and 25, not his less magical 1981 take... the 1962 is available on the 5-CD set others have been mentioning).
When you say complete 1962 Etudes, would you be referring to the (in)famous 1962 Philips set? (Which can be found on GPOTC).
Post by: aquablob on February 07, 2009, 07:14:07 PM
When you say complete 1962 Etudes, would you be referring to the (in)famous 1962 Philips set? (Which can be found on GPOTC).
Yes. He only recorded them all* once — in 1962. I find most of the set superb, if (forgive me ::)) "mannered," though I understand why others may not enjoy it as a whole. But unless you prefer your "Revolutionary" restrained, I wholeheartedly recommend Cziffra!
*(excluding the 3 "Nouvelles Etudes," which he never recorded)
Post by: George on February 07, 2009, 07:32:33 PM
And how does the early set stack up to the two later ones?
I'd like to know this too.
Post by: Herman on February 07, 2009, 11:14:31 PM
I'm going to disagree (Fighting over Chopin) with all the knockers of box sets for Chopin. Either the Ashkenazy or Rubinstein set would be an excellent place to start for beginners. Sure, there are probably better performances out there but both sets are consistently good. I'd never get rid of any of my Rubinstein.
I agree about the Rubinstein. People who say “I’d only keep the Rubinstein Berceuse” suffer from sophisticitis, and I frankly advocate getting more of Rubinstein’s Chopin than is available in the 11 cd box. The Askenazy would be a good start too, but getting the entire Ashkenazy afterwards seems like unneccesary doubling to me. I would however want his two Etudes recordings, and his Legends Ballades.
And how does the early set stack up to the two later ones?
I don’t listen to those much, but other people do. Some clearly prefer the 78s Mazurkas. You'd have to listen for yourself. They're available on a Naxos 2cd.
Post by: Mandryka on February 07, 2009, 11:41:11 PM
I frankly advocate getting more of Rubinstein’s Chopin than is available in the 11 cd box.
A very nice Rubinstein recording out of the 11 cd box.
You don't just get to hear him playing, you also get to hear him speaking.
Post by: Mandryka on February 08, 2009, 02:26:29 AM
But I want more. The cover says that he played the complete works of Chopin, much of which was taped.
Does anyone out there have tapes, or is there anyone who can point me in the right direction?
Post by: Peregrine on February 08, 2009, 02:34:45 AM
I would take Leo Sirota's Chopin recording to the Desert Island -- for me, it's close to perfection.
Agreed! Beautiful disc.
Post by: Herman on February 08, 2009, 02:37:27 AM
Post by: Peregrine on February 08, 2009, 02:44:01 AM
The Sirota's wonderful, but the good news is, there are no desert islands!
;D
Post by: ezodisy on February 08, 2009, 04:14:36 AM
Does anyone out there have tapes, or is there anyone who can point me in the right direction?
That Sirota disc might be the most deeply beautiful playing I've ever heard. I don't know why but there feels something very profound about it (but without any affectation or conceit). Anyway I once asked Allan Evans if there'd be another Sirota release and I think he said they were planning one. Obviously nothing has happened. Even another volume with Tiegerman, scheduled as upcoming for quite some time, still hasn't come out. You do have a couple other options for more Sirota. I bought this set from Japan:
http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1080712
and unfortunately it wasn't very good. Sound is awful, really really bad, and the Chopin performances didn't seem all that good (it includes an earlier Ballade 4 which I didn't find as convincing). I was thinking that he'd give an interesting performance of Schumann's Sym Etudes but they were all uniformly slow without any contrast and for me it didn't work at all. I wouldn't recommend buying this.
The other option is this which I've never found:
http://www.amazon.com/Sirota-plays-Chopin-Schumann-Others/dp/B00000G2ID/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1234095107&sr=1-8
Post by: rubio on February 08, 2009, 04:43:39 AM
I don’t listen to those much, but other people do. Some clearly prefer the 78s Mazurkas. You'd have to listen for yourself. They're available on a Naxos 2cd.
I decided to go for Rubinstein's middle set of the Mazurkas (RCA Rubinstein collection 27) plus the early ones on Naxos.
Post by: George on February 08, 2009, 06:39:52 AM
I agree about the Rubinstein. People who say “I’d only keep the Rubinstein Berceuse” suffer from sophisticitis, and I frankly advocate getting more of Rubinstein’s Chopin than is available in the 11 cd box.
Can I ask what you mean by "sophisticitis?"
FWIW, I do own more of Rubinstein's Chopin than is available in the 11 CD box. I have the two early mono sets of the Nocturnes.
Post by: Dr. Dread on February 08, 2009, 07:03:46 AM
Can I ask what you mean by "sophisticitis?"
I think it's the opposite of what I have.
Post by: Herman on February 08, 2009, 08:15:26 AM
And "sophisticitis" would be the morbid form of sophistication, I guess.
Post by: George on February 08, 2009, 08:36:01 AM
Oh, I wasn't meaning to be unkind. I just think it's a little funny to say of a monumental Chopin pianist "I'd keep the Berceuse" in the hypothetical desert island situation. Maybe because I'd at least want the entire Mazurkas and Nocturnes.
I see what you mean. I realize that he was a major figure in the history of Chopin recordings, but he just never fully clicked for me. I realize how my statement could seem dismissive of his Chopin, but it was not borne out of just one or two impressions. I value honesty over diplomacy and at times this can make my opinions seem a bit harsh.
Post by: Mandryka on February 08, 2009, 08:56:09 AM
Even another volume with Tiegerman, scheduled as upcoming for quite some time, still hasn't come out.
It's nice we all seem to be agreed about Sirota
I'm scared of Tiegerman
I fear that the sound quality is so poor I'll just listen to it a couple of times and then it'll get relegated to the top shelf and will sit there for twenty years.
If you own it, tell me if I am right to be cautious.
Post by: George on February 08, 2009, 09:08:02 AM
It's nice we all seem to be agreed about Sirota
Count me among those agreeing as well. I tried one track and really enjoyed it. I never bought it because I expected to find one cheap in the bins. I didn't so I just ordered a copy over at amazon. Thanks for the reminder.
Post by: ezodisy on February 08, 2009, 11:16:00 AM
I'm scared of Tiegerman
I fear that the sound quality is so poor I'll just listen to it a couple of times and then it'll get relegated to the top shelf and will sit there for twenty years.
If you own it, tell me if I am right to be cautious.
Yeah that's most likely what would happen, the sound is pretty bad. The performances are magnificent however, I think Herman thinks so too, but I doubt it's the sort of thing either of us listens to much (I don't anyway).
Post by: Mandryka on February 09, 2009, 10:07:13 AM
But I've started to think I must have bad taste -- someone just put me on to a review of this concert he gave in New York in 1983.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9801E0D6163BF937A35751C0A965948260
Post by: Holden on February 09, 2009, 12:04:55 PM
I love Natan Brand's Chopin.
But I've started to think I must have bad taste -- someone just put me on to a review of this concert he gave in New York in 1983.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9801E0D6163BF937A35751C0A965948260
Anyone who has heard the Rachmaninov recording of the Marcia Funebre will note, with some satisfaction, that he did the same thing in his recording. Just goes to shoe how ignorant many of the reviewers actually are.
Post by: Bulldog on February 09, 2009, 12:25:14 PM
I love Natan Brand's Chopin.
But I've started to think I must have bad taste -- someone just put me on to a review of this concert he gave in New York in 1983.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9801E0D6163BF937A35751C0A965948260
Just assume that Rothstein is the one with bad taste - problem solved.
Post by: ezodisy on February 09, 2009, 12:49:12 PM
Post by: George on February 09, 2009, 12:52:46 PM
Brand's overrated anyway
Indeed, Yundi Li is where it's at. ;)
Post by: Dr. Dread on February 10, 2009, 07:39:29 PM
Agreed! Beautiful disc.
Now I have it too and can agree with you all. 0:)
Thank you!
Post by: George on February 10, 2009, 07:43:28 PM
Now I have it too and can agree with you all. 0:)
Thank you!
Mine can't get here quick enough. :-[
Post by: Dr. Dread on February 10, 2009, 07:45:39 PM
Mine can't get here quick enough. :-[
I know you will not approve, but I downloaded mine. ;D
Post by: George on February 10, 2009, 07:52:07 PM
I know you will not approve, but I downloaded mine. ;D
;D
I actually downloaded one track to check it out myself.
With something that old, you probably aren't missing much in terms of SQ anyway.
Post by: Dr. Dread on February 10, 2009, 07:53:16 PM
;D
I actually downloaded one track to check it out myself.
With something that old, you probably aren't missing much in terms of SQ anyway.
Hope yours arrives soon!
Post by: George on February 10, 2009, 07:54:24 PM
Hope it arrives soon!
Thanks.
I have, um, quite a few CDs in the cellophane anyway to keep me occupied. 8)
Post by: Dr. Dread on February 10, 2009, 07:55:33 PM
Thanks.
I have, um, quite a few CDs in the cellophane anyway to keep me occupied. 8)
Tsk.
;)
Post by: George on February 10, 2009, 07:58:27 PM
Tsk.
;)
What can I say, I'm a Hungry Ghost. :D
(http://www.etchstar.com/images/art/2193/large.jpg)
Post by: Dr. Dread on February 10, 2009, 07:59:45 PM
What can I say, I'm a Hungry Ghost. :D
At least you know it. ;D
As do I. ::)
Post by: ezodisy on February 11, 2009, 03:13:01 AM
Post by: Novi on February 11, 2009, 07:15:07 AM
Very nice to see so many people enjoying that Sirota disc. Old school rules 8)
LOL, that was my first experience of 'old school' Chopin, and I thought, what on earth is he doing with with those treble chords in the main theme :D.
ETA: very scatty today. The above refers to op. 52 :-[ :P.
Post by: B_cereus on February 11, 2009, 07:22:43 AM
OOP CD (http://www.amazon.com/Mazurkas/dp/B0000028WR/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1234365301&sr=8-1)
Post by: Drasko on February 11, 2009, 07:40:31 AM
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/24/2018019/Mazurka%20Op.24%20No.4.mp3[/mp3]
Mazurka 24/4
Post by: George on February 11, 2009, 07:44:57 AM
LOL, that was my first experience of 'old school' Chopin, and I thought, what on earth is he doing with with those treble chords in the main theme :D.
ETA: very scatty today. The above refers to op. 52 :-[ :P.
Saved me some typing! 8)
Post by: sporkadelic on February 11, 2009, 08:12:25 AM
Per Tony's desire (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10923.msg273608.html#msg273608), another round of guess the pianist
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/24/2018019/Mazurka%20Op.24%20No.4.mp3[/mp3]
Mazurka 24/4
Piano roll?
Post by: ezodisy on February 11, 2009, 08:33:08 AM
Per Tony's desire (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10923.msg273608.html#msg273608), another round of guess the pianist
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/24/2018019/Mazurka%20Op.24%20No.4.mp3[/mp3]
Mazurka 24/4
well that's a trip down memory lane, haven't heard it in ages, maybe years (and yes the more time the better)
I'll go with Malcuzynski ::)
Post by: Peregrine on February 11, 2009, 08:39:14 AM
Post by: Drasko on February 11, 2009, 08:53:12 AM
well that's a trip down memory lane, haven't heard it in ages, maybe years (and yes the more time the better)
I'll go with Malcuzynski ::)
Have you considered new set of ears recently?
Brendel
No.
Piano roll?
No, but I think I hear where you're coming from.
Post by: ezodisy on February 11, 2009, 08:59:44 AM
Post by: sporkadelic on February 11, 2009, 09:15:21 AM
Post by: George on February 11, 2009, 10:06:52 AM
lol! That far off huh? Well, I never really liked Malcuzynski's mazurkas. I'll give it another listen tonight. In fairness to myself I did not go past 30 seconds before guessing ::)
Am I reading this correctly? ;D
Post by: ezodisy on February 11, 2009, 10:21:39 AM
Am I reading this correctly? ;D
you are inded. I like to make these tests as difficult as possible ;D
I recall the one we had of just the finale of Sonata 2. That was a good one (http://operawebclub.com/papageno/style_emoticons/default/good.gif)
Post by: Peregrine on February 11, 2009, 10:45:46 AM
No.
Sorry, Drasko, I was pissing about actually. Has Brendel ever recorded Chopin?
My serious answer - Afanassiev?!!!.....Cherkassky, possibly?
Post by: aquablob on February 11, 2009, 12:12:28 PM
Has Brendel ever recorded Chopin?
Polonaises, methinks.
Post by: The new erato on February 11, 2009, 01:57:06 PM
Frédéric Chopin 1810–1849
Polonaisein A flat major Op. 53 ‘Heroic’
Polonaise in C minor Op. 40 No. 2
Polonaise in F sharp minor Op. 44
Polonaise-fantaisie in A flat major Op. 61
Andante spianato
Grande polonaise brillante
Post by: Herman on February 11, 2009, 02:00:47 PM
Post by: Drasko on February 11, 2009, 02:13:35 PM
lol! That far off huh? Well, I never really liked Malcuzynski's mazurkas. I'll give it another listen tonight. In fairness to myself I did not go past 30 seconds before guessing ::)
Ok, I'll give you a big hint. Pianist in question was Malcuzynski's student, but new and improved ears you still are in dire need of.
My serious answer - Afanassiev?!!!.....Cherkassky, possibly?
No, neither of them.
Post by: ezodisy on February 11, 2009, 03:52:24 PM
(I knew I heard some M in there :) )
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 11, 2009, 06:52:06 PM
Per Tony's desire (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10923.msg273608.html#msg273608), another round of guess the pianist
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/24/2018019/Mazurka%20Op.24%20No.4.mp3[/mp3]
Mazurka 24/4
Perlemuter?
Post by: sporkadelic on February 11, 2009, 09:32:35 PM
Post by: Peregrine on February 11, 2009, 10:32:54 PM
Ok, I'll give you a big hint. Pianist in question was Malcuzynski's student, but new and improved ears you still are in dire need of.
Well, going by the piano used and the hint - Olejniczak?
Post by: Drasko on February 12, 2009, 01:36:19 AM
Well, going by the piano used and the hint - Olejniczak?
(http://lads.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/thumbsup.jpg)
We have a winner! It is indeed Janusz Olejniczak playing on Chopin's own 1831 Pleyel, from this disc:
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9272/olejniczakchopinmn5.jpg)
The prize are Goldberg Variations played by Grigory Sokolov, check PM to collect.
Post by: ezodisy on February 12, 2009, 02:04:44 AM
Post by: Peregrine on February 12, 2009, 02:12:32 AM
(http://lads.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/thumbsup.jpg)
;D
Post by: Drasko on February 12, 2009, 02:22:07 AM
lol! Who the hell is that?
(http://pik.wroclaw.pl/uploaded/BLEKITNA_NUTA_4_ZM.JPG)
Polish pianist who among other things played Chopin in Zulawski's La Note Bleue. I'm sure Maciek knows more about his pianism than I, he records extensively for polish labels.
Post by: ezodisy on February 12, 2009, 02:55:34 AM
Polish pianist who among other things played Chopin in Zulawski's La Note Bleue. I'm sure Maciek knows more about his pianism than I, he records extensively for polish labels.
Thanks for that. Jesus Zulawski made a film about Chopin? :o That's gonna be insane. Have you seen it? I'm about to download his Boris Godunov after I finish downloading films by Wojciech Has
Post by: Drasko on February 12, 2009, 03:52:31 AM
Thanks for that. Jesus Zulawski made a film about Chopin? :o That's gonna be insane. Have you seen it? I'm about to download his Boris Godunov after I finish downloading films by Wojciech Has
Watching screenshots (http://www.andrzej-zulawski.com/Gallery-BlueNote.html) I think I might have seen it, or just excerpts, on TV years ago and if that was indeed it I recall it being part hysterical part hilarious, definitely worth seeing.
Downloads are easy to find but no subtitles that I could track down (film is in french). There is also not too expensive French DVD but again, no idea if it has any subtitles.
http://www.amazon.fr/note-bleue-Marie-France-Pisier/dp/B000EGESPS
Post by: Mandryka on February 14, 2009, 11:36:29 PM
Have anny of you guys tried them? Are they recommended?
Post by: George on February 15, 2009, 05:00:44 AM
I've enjoyed this, and I'm thinking of buying Gekic's two sonata CDs.
Have anny of you guys tried them? Are they recommended?
Absolutely! Wait, two sonata CDs? I know of the one with Chopin's third sonata, is there another?
Post by: ezodisy on February 15, 2009, 05:03:18 AM
Post by: George on February 15, 2009, 05:04:30 AM
the early one that you bought has Sonata 3 (the disc with Ballade 1)
Right, I just corrected that. Thanks.
Post by: ezodisy on February 15, 2009, 05:08:54 AM
I like the disc with 3 more than 2
Post by: George on February 15, 2009, 05:13:25 AM
There's also one with sonata 2: http://www.amazon.com/Kemal-Gekic-in-Concert/dp/B00000I7H4/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1234703294&sr=1-7
I like the disc with 3 more than 2
Oh, right! I got that way back when you were first recommending him, when I couldn't find the Live Tokyo CD. I have yet to hear a Gekic CD I don't like. The only other pianist I can say that about is Moravec.
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 02:35:10 PM
Post by: Peregrine on February 18, 2009, 01:28:31 PM
Waltz, Op.64/1
[mp3=200,20,0,center]http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/2/18/2327747/12%20Waltz%20In%20D-Flat%20Major%2C%20Opus%2064%20No.%201.mp3
[/mp3]
Post by: ezodisy on February 18, 2009, 02:27:10 PM
;D
where's the largesse in the middle? Not there :(
Post by: George on February 18, 2009, 02:44:41 PM
I don't know but I don't like it (http://operawebclub.com/papageno/style_emoticons/default/good.gif)
Me neither x 2. :-\
Post by: Drasko on February 18, 2009, 04:49:42 PM
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/24/2018019/Waltz%2064-1.mp3 [/mp3]
Post by: Dr. Dread on February 18, 2009, 04:56:09 PM
[I meant this in response to Peregrine's post.]
Post by: aquablob on February 18, 2009, 08:39:30 PM
Happen to know the pianist (you should really delete tags before uploading).
Yeah, I cheated too. ;)
Post by: aquablob on February 18, 2009, 08:42:38 PM
Don't particularly like it either, fast and slick. Happen to know the pianist (you should really delete tags before uploading). Here is one to counterweight, shouldn't be difficult.
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/24/2018019/Waltz%2064-1.mp3 [/mp3]
Hofmann! — Love the thirds!
Post by: aquablob on February 18, 2009, 08:58:07 PM
1.
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/17/1357385/1.mp3[/mp3]
2.
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/17/1357385/2.mp3[/mp3]
3. (Like the Hofmann, there are slight liberties taken at some point... would be the giveaway if you know it)
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/17/1357385/3.mp3[/mp3]
Post by: Peregrine on February 18, 2009, 10:44:31 PM
Don't particularly like it either, fast and slick. Happen to know the pianist (you should really delete tags before uploading). Here is one to counterweight, shouldn't be difficult.
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/24/2018019/Waltz%2064-1.mp3 [/mp3]
Sorry, new to this, hadn't realised I'ld left them!
Gieseking, for those that didn't know...
Post by: ezodisy on February 18, 2009, 11:57:57 PM
Sorry, new to this, hadn't realised I'ld left them!
Gieseking, for those that didn't know...
Thanks, I hadn't heard it before. No Chopin skill evidently ;D
By the way, which cD is that from?
Post by: ezodisy on February 19, 2009, 12:00:30 AM
Hofmann! — Love the thirds!
lol!
Post by: ezodisy on February 19, 2009, 12:17:39 AM
3. (Like the Hofmann, there are slight liberties taken at some point... would be the giveaway if you know it)
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/17/1357385/3.mp3[/mp3]
I'd like to know who this is, it's a really different interpretation.
The first two I didn't like much. On one of them, don't remember which, the term all-fingers comes to mind. Not sure who played any of these
Post by: Peregrine on February 19, 2009, 02:16:49 AM
Thanks, I hadn't heard it before. No Chopin skill evidently ;D
By the way, which cD is that from?
I kept it from one of those Andante historical Chopin sets, voulme 1 IIRC. I kinda' of like the sweep of it...
Post by: Drasko on February 19, 2009, 02:30:28 AM
3. (Like the Hofmann, there are slight liberties taken at some point... would be the giveaway if you know it)
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/17/1357385/3.mp3[/mp3]
Aah, now you talking business 8) That is Rachmaninoff second recording, my favorite minute waltz by couple of very longshots.
Post by: Drasko on February 19, 2009, 03:16:00 AM
I kept it from one of those Andante historical Chopin sets, voulme 1 IIRC. I kinda' of like the sweep of it...
Sweep is ok, what I didn't like that much is lack of contrast which should be provided by middle section.
2.
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/17/1357385/2.mp3[/mp3]
This could be Cziffra.
Post by: ezodisy on February 19, 2009, 03:17:01 AM
Aah, now you talking business 8) That is Rachmaninoff second recording, my favorite minute waltz by couple of very longshots.
lovely. That is really my sort of reading (The Swoon).
I kept it from one of those Andante historical Chopin sets, voulme 1 IIRC. I kinda' of like the sweep of it...
well there are all sorts of enjoyable readings, I just prefer to faint in the middle :)
Post by: Dr. Dread on February 19, 2009, 06:56:34 AM
Sorry, new to this, hadn't realised I'ld left them!
Gieseking, for those that didn't know...
Gracias. I suck at this. ;D
Or just haven't heard enough, apparently.
Post by: aquablob on February 19, 2009, 07:48:47 AM
[No. 3] is Rachmaninoff second recording, my favorite minute waltz by couple of very longshots.
Yes!
[No. 2] could be Cziffra.
YES!!
Post by: aquablob on February 19, 2009, 07:51:36 AM
well there are all sorts of enjoyable readings
I agree, and this is exactly why it's worth having multiple recordings (IMO) of one's favorite works!
Post by: ezodisy on February 19, 2009, 10:06:53 AM
Post by: aquablob on February 19, 2009, 10:22:26 AM
who's the first one?
That was the trick! >:D
The first two I didn't like much. On one of them, don't remember which, the term all-fingers comes to mind. Not sure who played any of these
I'm not surprised that if you didn't like No. 2, you also didn't like No. 1 (or vice versa) — both Cziffra!
I understand your criticism; though I adore Cziffra's recordings of the Chopin waltzes in general, his 64/1s are not the gems of the sets. I do enjoy them more than you do, however. Different gears for different ears, I suppose!
Post by: orbital on February 19, 2009, 11:15:16 AM
Post by: George on February 19, 2009, 11:16:59 AM
I have an interesting g sharp minor prelude that I want to put up for your guesses, but it is not with me at the mom ;D
Nevertheless, I have a guess. ;D
Weissenberg?
Post by: orbital on February 19, 2009, 11:42:55 AM
Nevertheless, I have a guess. ;D:D No, but one clue is that it will not be easily guessable (not because the pianist is not well known, but because the playing is quite out of her/his style)
Weissenberg?
Post by: ezodisy on February 19, 2009, 12:06:31 PM
Nevertheless, I have a guess. ;D
Weissenberg?
lol!
Did W record much Chopin? The piano concerti, and I used to have a rare live disc from Italy of him playing PC 2 (I think) and other rarely played Chopin works with orchestra. And he recorded Nocturnes, and the two sonatas. I don't remember much else now. Don't think he tried any preludes.
Post by: George on February 19, 2009, 12:17:56 PM
lol!
Did W record much Chopin? The piano concerti, and I used to have a rare live disc from Italy of him playing PC 2 (I think) and other rarely played Chopin works with orchestra. And he recorded Nocturnes, and the two sonatas. I don't remember much else now. Don't think he tried any preludes.
I am not sure, I was just joking because I know that he is one of Alain's pet pianists. 8)
Post by: Herman on February 20, 2009, 12:57:13 PM
At first the playing is rather stodgy, but as the cycle progresses one either gets into Joffe's style or she gets into the music, and there are a couple of rather good pieces. Her tone is terrific, though. I'll have to listen again this weekend.
Anybody else ever got to hear her?
Post by: Mandryka on February 20, 2009, 01:25:06 PM
Post by: orbital on February 21, 2009, 02:30:19 AM
I have an interesting g sharp minor prelude that I want to put up for your guesses, but it is not with me at the mom ;DOK, here it is.
The ending is chopped off to discourage cheating $:)
[mp3=200,20,0,center]http://www.karaktera.com/brooklynpizza/prelude12.mp3[/mp3]
Post by: aquablob on February 21, 2009, 09:52:42 AM
Post by: Drasko on February 21, 2009, 01:29:34 PM
The ending is chopped off to discourage cheating $:)
>:( Outrage!!! O tempora, o mores! Coitus interruptus! Et cetera, et cetera...
First thought was Cherkassky, but since you said it's someone playing outside usual self, no idea.
Post by: ezodisy on February 22, 2009, 01:09:16 PM
Post by: aquablob on February 22, 2009, 02:33:26 PM
Post by: orbital on February 23, 2009, 01:47:22 AM
First thought was Cherkassky, but since you said it's someone playing outside usual self, no idea.The playing reminded you of Cherkassy's general style? You may be right there. The "outside usual self" thing may merely be my interpretation of the pianist in question though. I am sure there are many who find her/his general approach warmer (big hint here :P ) than I do.
I don't know it but I'll go with PerahiaNo. Why him?
I'm gonna go with Richter... I have no idea if he ever recorded this prelude, but you mentioned that this performance is out of character, and I've heard some of Richter's Chopin. Doesn't sound anything like this! (I suppose I could say the same for pretty much anybody! :D)Not Richter either. This pianist -unlike Richter- is a superb Chopin player (docks down to dodge the bullets about to arrive from George) $:)
The answer is:
Francois
Post by: George on February 23, 2009, 03:35:57 AM
Not Richter either. This pianist -unlike Richter- is a superb Chopin player (docks down to dodge the bullets about to arrive from George) $:)
I don't think Richter is a superb Chopin player, actually. I don't think it's terrible either. Somewhere in between.
Post by: Herman on February 23, 2009, 03:59:56 AM
Post by: ezodisy on February 23, 2009, 04:05:16 AM
Ah, right, François. I thought this prelude was a mess, so that makes sense.
welll that is partly why I thought Perahia. To me it sounded like a rather unconvincing attempt to sound poetic, or whatever, which is how I think (or thought) of Perahia's Chopin recordings. I do like quite a lot of Francois' Chopin though
Post by: orbital on February 23, 2009, 04:11:53 AM
Ah, right, François. I thought this prelude was a mess, so that makes sense.Really? I am quite fond of his Chopin. I find him a little more distant than the music generally requires, but at times he brings a personal touch such as the case here.
I don't like it when the preludes (particularly the faster ones) are played like etudes. Unlike them they have plenty of space for taking risks. All the better if the risks pay off, but in the end, they are judgment calls of course.
Post by: Mandryka on February 28, 2009, 07:22:59 AM
That Sirota disc might be the most deeply beautiful playing I've ever heard. I don't know why but there feels something very profound about it (but without any affectation or conceit). Anyway I once asked Allan Evans if there'd be another Sirota release and I think he said they were planning one. Obviously nothing has happened. Even another volume with Tiegerman, scheduled as upcoming for quite some time, still hasn't come out. You do have a couple other options for more Sirota. I bought this set from Japan:
http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1080712
and unfortunately it wasn't very good. Sound is awful, really really bad, and the Chopin performances didn't seem all that good (it includes an earlier Ballade 4 which I didn't find as convincing). I was thinking that he'd give an interesting performance of Schumann's Sym Etudes but they were all uniformly slow without any contrast and for me it didn't work at all. I wouldn't recommend buying this.
The other option is this which I've never found:
http://www.amazon.com/Sirota-plays-Chopin-Schumann-Others/dp/B00000G2ID/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1234095107&sr=1-8
I know this isn't really the right place to post this, but I've been listening to Sirota's Beethoven and Schubert disc all week, and once again, it's comming to the non-existant desert island.
This man was an amazing pianist.
Post by: nut-job on February 28, 2009, 08:42:37 AM
Post by: orbital on February 28, 2009, 10:09:07 AM
Recently finished listening to Maria Tipo's recordings of the Nocturnes. Nicely done, an effortless, poetic sound, very satisfying.Agreed. It is one of my favorite nocturnes sets. None of that sticky, plaintive mood but still sounding very touching.
Post by: ezodisy on February 28, 2009, 11:40:55 AM
Post by: ezodisy on February 28, 2009, 11:46:58 AM
Post by: Mandryka on March 02, 2009, 01:52:38 PM
Argerich playing a Chopin mazurka earlier this month: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkzoPYhqRfU&fmt=18
Listened to it a couple of times -- but can't say I enjoyed it.
I've never much enjoyed her playing though -- maybe it's a blind spot.
Post by: Novi on March 02, 2009, 03:32:47 PM
This guy's so cool in the third sonata - he's become my favourite performer (apart from Bolet maybe)
I haven't heard Fiorentino's 3rd, but love his 2nd.
Post by: George on March 02, 2009, 05:21:02 PM
Natan Brand – essential listening. Israeli-American pianist. Studied with Nadia Reisenberg (Hofmann pupil) and Dorothy Taubman. He was a truly imaginative virtuoso who followed in the line of Anton Rubinstein--both in artistic beliefs and lineage.
Any opinions on Nadia Reisenberg's Chopin? I see that Bridge has issued a 4 CD set of her Chopin. The set was mastered by Seth Winner.
Post by: Holden on March 02, 2009, 05:56:16 PM
This guy's so cool in the third sonata - he's become my favourite performer (apart from Bolet maybe)
Listened to it a couple of times -- but can't say I enjoyed it.
I've never much enjoyed her playing though -- maybe it's a blind spot.
Fiorentino is one of my favourite pianists period! Like Novi, I have him in the 2nd but haven't heard his 3rd. I'd be very interested in hearing his performance of it as well as the D960. APR have released 6 CDs in a series Called 'Fiorentino - The Early Years". There is more to come apparently and this includes Chopin's Nocturnes, Ballades and Etudes - I can't wait, especially for the Nocturnes. All of these will be released by APR.
One caveat. There are a number of 'Fiorentino' CDs on the Concert Artists label (remember Hatto?). Many of these are probably not by Fiorentino. This site (http://freenet-homepage.de/elumpe/SFDiscography.html) can give you more precise details - just click on the composer you want to see.
Post by: rubio on March 02, 2009, 11:37:49 PM
This guy's so cool in the third sonata - he's become my favourite performer (apart from Bolet maybe)
That Fiorentino disc is for sure tempting.
Post by: ezodisy on March 02, 2009, 11:56:38 PM
Listened to it a couple of times -- but can't say I enjoyed it.
I've never much enjoyed her playing though -- maybe it's a blind spot.
Same here, I just thoguht it was interesting to hear how youthful she still sounds (no sense of greying profundity taking over like with some musicians)
Any opinions on Nadia Reisenberg's Chopin? I see that Bridge has issued a 4 CD set of her Chopin. The set was mastered by Seth Winner.
can you link that please? Until now I don't think there's been much of a chance to hear her Chopin
Post by: George on March 03, 2009, 03:51:16 AM
can you link that please? Until now I don't think there's been much of a chance to hear her Chopin
Sure - http://www.bridgerecords.com/pages/catalog/9276.htm
Post by: ezodisy on March 03, 2009, 05:16:41 AM
Post by: George on March 03, 2009, 06:07:39 AM
Thanks, not a set I intend to buy but I like the repertoire with 1 big work (sonata 3)
What did you think of the samples?
Post by: ezodisy on March 03, 2009, 10:08:36 AM
Post by: Renfield on March 03, 2009, 11:02:00 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Afzmic4aL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I recall Wanderer purchasing it of late, but since these are apparently older recordings gathered in one box, I thought I'd ask for opinions from the entire resident Chopin collective. ;)
Post by: jwinter on March 03, 2009, 12:01:57 PM
With apologies if it's been brought up before, I'm quite intrigued by this set:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Afzmic4aL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I recall Wanderer purchasing it of late, but since these are apparently older recordings gathered in one box, I thought I'd ask for opinions from the entire resident Chopin collective. ;)
I got a copy of that set last week, actually, and am slowly working my way through it. I've listened to the Preludes and about half the Nocturnes so far, and was quite impressed by both on first hearing. Ohlsson takes a slow, rather ruminative approach in places, and while at times the tempo teeters close to collapse it never quite does, and indeed he does a fine job of never losing sight of the rhythm. It's not all about slowness, though, and at times he can also burst out with ferocious technique and speed. He's not doing a simpleminded "play the slow movements REALLY slow and the fast movements REALLY fast" kind of thing either; I dare say he has a very personal approach, at least in the few pieces I've heard so far. I'm really looking forward to hearing the rest of the set. Beautifully recorded too.
I also have the EMI recordings of the Preludes & Nocturnes that he did in the 1970s, and these are totally different -- you'd never know it's the same pianist, particularly in the Nocturnes. His EMI Nocturnes are good, but very straight-laced if not to say clinical, with tempi so regular one wonders at points if he's literally using a metronome. The Nocturnes from the complete set, OTOH, remind me a lot of Arrau or Moravec -- much freer in approach, each phrase carefully molded, the whole thing slower and quieter but even more powerful because of that.
I think next I'll see what he makes of the Etudes...
Post by: Renfield on March 03, 2009, 02:15:24 PM
I got a copy of that set last week, actually, and am slowly working my way through it. I've listened to the Preludes and about half the Nocturnes so far, and was quite impressed by both on first hearing. Ohlsson takes a slow, rather ruminative approach in places, and while at times the tempo teeters close to collapse it never quite does, and indeed he does a fine job of never losing sight of the rhythm. It's not all about slowness, though, and at times he can also burst out with ferocious technique and speed. He's not doing a simpleminded "play the slow movements REALLY slow and the fast movements REALLY fast" kind of thing either; I dare say he has a very personal approach, at least in the few pieces I've heard so far. I'm really looking forward to hearing the rest of the set. Beautifully recorded too.
I also have the EMI recordings of the Preludes & Nocturnes that he did in the 1970s, and these are totally different -- you'd never know it's the same pianist, particularly in the Nocturnes. His EMI Nocturnes are good, but very straight-laced if not to say clinical, with tempi so regular one wonders at points if he's literally using a metronome. The Nocturnes from the complete set, OTOH, remind me a lot of Arrau or Moravec -- much freer in approach, each phrase carefully molded, the whole thing slower and quieter but even more powerful because of that.
I think next I'll see what he makes of the Etudes...
Very interesting. Thank you! :)
Post by: Herman on March 03, 2009, 11:02:20 PM
Post by: Wanderer on March 03, 2009, 11:13:27 PM
Post by: Mandryka on March 04, 2009, 10:13:38 AM
I haven't heard Fiorentino's 3rd, but love his 2nd.
Fiorentino is one of my favourite pianists period! Like Novi, I have him in the 2nd but haven't heard his 3rd. I'd be very interested in hearing his performance of it as well as the D960.
That Fiorentino disc is for sure tempting.
Try this:
http://www.mediafire.com/?zortjwnj4id
Post by: B_cereus on March 04, 2009, 01:46:18 PM
Post by: aquablob on March 04, 2009, 03:15:44 PM
a couple of years ago i picked up a really cheap CD of Chopin nocturnes/etudes/fantasie-op49 played by an obscure pianist called Dubravka Tomsic and i was quite impressed. it may be bargain bucket, but i think this pianist's Chopin is really good and bears comparison with more famous names.
I wouldn't call her obscure, although I'm not personally acquainted with her recordings (I've heard good things :)).
Post by: rubio on March 05, 2009, 11:57:59 AM
I also wonder if any of you have heard Rosita Renard. This VAI recording is quite tempting.
http://www.amazon.com/Rosita-Renard-at-Carnegie-Hall/dp/B000003LJ1/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1236282735&sr=1-1
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21ZRT3633AL._SL500_AA130_.jpg)
Post by: Mandryka on March 05, 2009, 09:33:52 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUiHBjQku0o
Post by: Peregrine on March 05, 2009, 10:51:41 PM
Please post your comments on this performance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUiHBjQku0o
;D
Bloody hell....
Post by: ezodisy on March 05, 2009, 11:21:44 PM
I also wonder if any of you have heard Rosita Renard. This VAI recording is quite tempting.
http://www.amazon.com/Rosita-Renard-at-Carnegie-Hall/dp/B000003LJ1/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1236282735&sr=1-1
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21ZRT3633AL._SL500_AA130_.jpg)
great disc, she had an amazing style for Chopin. I think George has that.
IIRC she studied with Arrau's teacher as well and was quite good friends with him.
Post by: Holden on March 06, 2009, 12:16:30 AM
a couple of years ago i picked up a really cheap CD of Chopin nocturnes/etudes/fantasie-op49 played by an obscure pianist called Dubravka Tomsic and i was quite impressed. it may be bargain bucket, but i think this pianist's Chopin is really good and bears comparison with more famous names.
Tomsic is a seriously underrated pianist who you can only find on minor budget labels. On the downside she is sometimes attributed as the performer when she is not (Chopin Waltzes for example). Check out her Waldstein!
Post by: orbital on March 06, 2009, 01:17:12 AM
I don't see much mention of William Kapell in this thread. How would you characterize his Chopin, and which CD's are highly recommendable?I have been listening to his Mazurkas CD (the first CD of the Kapell Edition set) with pleasure for a couple of years now. It is not a complete set by any means, but there is a pretty good selection from almost each published op. The sound quality is more than adequate.
Kapell's playing of these pieces may indeed be my favorite along with Luisada. His approach is more dance than melancholy. I find them indispensable.
Post by: rubio on March 06, 2009, 01:23:07 AM
I have been listening to his Mazurkas CD (the first CD of the Kapell Edition set) with pleasure for a couple of years now. It is not a complete set by any means, but there is a pretty good selection from almost each published op. The sound quality is more than adequate.
Kapell's playing of these pieces may indeed be my favorite along with Luisada. His approach is more dance than melancholy. I find them indispensable.
Thank you for the comment, orbital. Dance approach sounds appetizing to me, so I will proceed.
Post by: orbital on March 06, 2009, 01:44:42 AM
Thank you for the comment, orbital. Dance approach sounds appetizing to me, so I will proceed.You're very welcome. If you are fine with 256kbps mp3's, I think Amazon offers the CD download.
Post by: George on March 06, 2009, 03:41:21 AM
great disc, she had an amazing style for Chopin. I think George has that.
I do, but I have only heard it once, I need another listen to have anything to say about the 2 CD set.
Post by: ezodisy on March 06, 2009, 03:43:12 AM
I do, but I have only heard it once, I need another listen to have anything to say about the 2 CD set.
I don't remember the second CD, but the live first one with Chopin has a couple special pieces on it. Sort of depends how much of a collector/specialist/ you are in wanting this set just for several pieces I guess
Post by: dirkronk on March 06, 2009, 07:10:25 AM
I also wonder if any of you have heard Rosita Renard. This VAI recording is quite tempting.
http://www.amazon.com/Rosita-Renard-at-Carnegie-Hall/dp/B000003LJ1/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1236282735&sr=1-1
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21ZRT3633AL._SL500_AA130_.jpg)
Presuming it's not selling for an outrageous price, buy the set. Don't get it for the Chopin especially. Just get it. It has essentially everything you'll likely ever find by Rosita Renard, and it acts as both a memento of special talent and a frustrating hint of what we as listeners might have enjoyed, had Ms. Renard received the kind of support she deserved (re touring and recording) at the beginning of her adult career. The sad details are spelled out in the notes of the CD. The contents of the set are basically her "comeback" appearance at Carnegie in January 1949 (alas, she would die from sudden-onset health problems in May) and some individual 78 sides recorded IIRC sometime in the late 1920s. The privately-issued LP set of the Carnegie concert was quite a collector item for years, typically selling in the hundreds of bucks; I lucked into a set about two decades ago and still own it.
I won't say that any of this playing is ideal, whether in Chopin or other composers, but especially in the live concert Renard's keyboard command, her attack, her sense of phrasing and her sheer presence are all quite compelling. The opening Bach partita sets the stage: she is forthright and fearless. That and the following Mozart sonata #15 are particular faves of mine. In the famous Chopin etude op.10/3, she presents it openly, almost raw, and yet she convinces you that this IS the way to hear it, and extraordinary poetry comes through even though she refuses to milk it. Oh, and minor finger slips aside, it's obvious that this woman has NO technical difficulties. Damn. I'm depressing myself. Never mind. Get the set. Listen. It's good stuff...really...and definitely worth having in your collection.
Cheers,
Dirk
Post by: George on March 06, 2009, 07:14:23 AM
Presuming it's not selling for an outrageous price, buy the set. Don't get it for the Chopin especially. Just get it. It has essentially everything you'll likely ever find by Rosita Renard, and it acts as both a memento of special talent and a frustrating hint of what we as listeners might have enjoyed, had Ms. Renard received the kind of support she deserved (re touring and recording) at the beginning of her adult career.
More and more, I have begun to notice what a special label VAI is.
Post by: dirkronk on March 06, 2009, 08:29:09 AM
More and more, I have begun to notice what a special label VAI is.
Quite so, George.
BTW, I don't know if online selling venues mention it, but Ward Marston did the transfers for the VAI set...and very nicely, too. The piano sound is solid throughout the concert. There are crowd noises--and one false start of applause when Renard goes ultra-soft in fingering during a Chopin piece!--but for the most part these aren't intrusive.
Dirk
Post by: rubio on March 06, 2009, 08:31:14 AM
Post by: George on March 08, 2009, 08:53:32 AM
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/de/a7/13af225b9da0ad4f52c81110.L.jpg)
The performance of the concerto, while played with beauty and grace, was not individual or special enough to be particularly memorable. The Preludes are performed more successfully, with a nice slow and dark #2, just the way I like it. She does much better with the slower Preludes, which are played with luminous, romantic beauty. The fast ones are handled well from a technical standpoint, but lack that last bit of excitement that other pianists bring to this music. Overall, this is a set of Preludes that I recommend and expect to return to. The recorded sound is lovely.
Post by: Herman on March 08, 2009, 09:11:33 AM
Pires' Nocturnes didn't impress me too much. Except for the Op 15 ones I thought they were pretty much m.o.r.
Post by: ezodisy on March 08, 2009, 11:44:19 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWgUAhTveSY
Someone has uploaded a video of Ginzburg playing waltz 64/2 which I guess is from that DVD released in Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkG4LEne_0U
There are a couple videos of Goldenweiser playing Chopin too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDUKntUFU9Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbtVuaws8so
I'm not saying they're great or anything
While we're on old school videos here's one of H. Neuhaus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Colki_YMhw8&
Post by: orbital on March 09, 2009, 03:55:04 AM
So you would recommend Pires' Preludes over say, Arrau or Bolet? Or would you recommend them as set nr 6?She is the kind of Chopin player I can't take (especially in large doses). Her nocturnes set was a big disappointment for me, and I don't think I played them past a couple of times. There is not reason to extra-romanticise the nocturnes like Pires does, because then they become those soggy tearjerkers which they are not.
Pires' Nocturnes didn't impress me too much. Except for the Op 15 ones I thought they were pretty much m.o.r.
Post by: George on March 09, 2009, 04:54:49 AM
She is the kind of Chopin player I can't take (especially in large doses). Her nocturnes set was a big disappointment for me, and I don't think I played them past a couple of times. There is not reason to extra-romanticise the nocturnes like Pires does, because then they become those soggy tearjerkers which they are not.
After hearing her preludes, I decided to seek out a copy of the Nocturnes.
When I first started listening to classical music, I had a narrow definition of pianists/composers/works that I enjoy. As a result of coming here, I was encouraged to expand my definition of what I found to be acceptable and ultimately enjoyable. As a result, I have enjoyed many pianists/composers/works that I probably never would have given a second thought. I expected that the pendulum would swing back and I would begin to narrow my focus again, to a more reasonable degree. For some reason, this never really happened. I haven't (perhaps yet?) found a specific taste for certain composers/works. Who knows? Perhaps it will change in the future. Sure would save me a lot of money. ;D Until that day (if it comes), I will enjoy the journey.
Post by: orbital on March 09, 2009, 05:09:38 AM
Post by: George on March 09, 2009, 06:13:48 AM
Her nocturnes set is generally well received IIRC -that's the reason I got them in the first place, so there is a good chance that you might like them. I can send you a couple of them to try out if you want.
That's cool, I already have a copy. Thanks!
Post by: Mandryka on March 09, 2009, 09:48:22 AM
Mandryka, if you want to hear a great performance of op. 25/11, you could try Ginzburg's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWgUAhTveSY
Someone has uploaded a video of Ginzburg playing waltz 64/2 which I guess is from that DVD released in Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkG4LEne_0U
There are a couple videos of Goldenweiser playing Chopin too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDUKntUFU9Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbtVuaws8so
I'm not saying they're great or anything
While we're on old school videos here's one of H. Neuhaus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Colki_YMhw8&
Thanks for putting me on to these -- I think Ginsburg is real good in the Etudes -- especially Opus 25. In number 11 he's paticularly exciting at the end.
I think there are other good performances of this too -- Gekic for instance, is one that I love in Winter Winds. And Richter too -- we must never forget Richter.
I don't usually warm to Richter's Chopin -- he's exciting enough, but IMO not enough introdpection and meloncholy; too extrovert and in your face. But in Winter winds I think he's very good indeed.
Did you see the upload of Neuhaus's 2nd scherzo?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUZj2UdcIfA&feature=channel_page
Post by: George on March 09, 2009, 10:02:56 AM
... I love in Winter Winds. And Richter too -- we must never forget Richter.
... in Winter winds I think he's very good indeed.
I agree. Are you referring the Prague version?
Post by: Mandryka on March 09, 2009, 10:19:18 AM
I agree. Are you referring the Prague version?
Exactly. I like the Philips "authorised" version too.
After hearing her preludes, I decided to seek out a copy of the Nocturnes.
When I first started listening to classical music, I had a narrow definition of pianists/composers/works that I enjoy. As a result of coming here, I was encouraged to expand my definition of what I found to be acceptable and ultimately enjoyable. As a result, I have enjoyed many pianists/composers/works that I probably never would have given a second thought. I expected that the pendulum would swing back and I would begin to narrow my focus again, to a more reasonable degree. For some reason, this never really happened. I haven't (perhaps yet?) found a specific taste for certain composers/works. Who knows? Perhaps it will change in the future. Sure would save me a lot of money. ;D Until that day (if it comes), I will enjoy the journey.
Bo'Selecta
Post by: Mandryka on March 10, 2009, 12:28:07 PM
They sound excellent to me.
There must have been a recording of him doing this -- does anyone know if it is available anywhere?
Post by: Holden on March 10, 2009, 12:34:32 PM
Re my interest in Fiorentino, I just noticed that someone has posted him playing the complete Chopin Etudes -- opus 10 and opus 25 -- on youtube.
They sound excellent to me.
There must have been a recording of him doing this -- does anyone know if it is available anywhere?
Yes, probably on LP and possibly by Saga on CD but both are well oop. APR have plans to release them (along with other Chopin works).
The SF discography site set up by Lumpe is down at the moment. In it he lists all the recordings of SF and also warns of ones, from the Concert Artists label (Barrington-Coupe), that are suspicious. From memory I believe that the Etudes are genuine.
Where on Youtube is this?
Post by: Mandryka on March 10, 2009, 12:53:32 PM
Yes, probably on LP and possibly by Saga on CD but both are well oop. APR have plans to release them (along with other Chopin works).
The SF discography site set up by Lumpe is down at the moment. In it he lists all the recordings of SF and also warns of ones, from the Concert Artists label (Barrington-Coupe), that are suspicious. From memory I believe that the Etudes are genuine.
Where on Youtube is this?
Here's a link to Opus 10 No 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q971rlKk_x0
I plan on taking the set off with this rather marvelous tool:
http://www.listentoyoutube.com/index.php
I sent a message to the guy who uploaded them thanking him and asking for info about the recording.
By the way do you know about the Fiorentino Schubert disc? Not the D960 but this one
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Schubert-Sonatas-Nos-13-Impromptus/dp/B000094PWQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1236718363&sr=8-2
Post by: Holden on March 10, 2009, 02:23:29 PM
Here's a link to Opus 10 No 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q971rlKk_x0
I plan on taking the set off with this rather marvelous tool:
http://www.listentoyoutube.com/index.php
I sent a message to the guy who uploaded them thanking him and asking for info about the recording.
By the way do you know about the Fiorentino Schubert disc? Not the D960 but this one
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Schubert-Sonatas-Nos-13-Impromptus/dp/B000094PWQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1236718363&sr=8-2
Thanks for that - enjoying them now!
I have that Schubert disc it is excellent, but then again most of what SF does is.
Post by: Holden on March 10, 2009, 03:50:21 PM
Etudes, op. 10 ##1 - 12
recorded: 8 July 1959 London, Conway Hall
recording unissued
-Etudes, op. 10 ##1 - 12
recorded: 8 January 1962 London, Greenwich Borough Hall
LP: Fidelio ATL 4021 / TLS 6009 (1962) (was also issued under the name of "Auguste du Maurier")
Egmont ATL 4021 (1962)
Summit LSU 1017 (1962) (see appendix)
Summit LSU 1018 (1962) (op.10 ##3, 5 & 12 only) (see appendix)
Fidelio ATL 4098 / TLS 6035 (1965) (op.10 ##3, 5 & 12 only)
MC: Concert Artist/Fidelio ATL-TC-5023 (1984)
Etudes, op. 10 ##4, 6, 8 & 10
recorded: 13 July 1997 Newport, RI, Ochre Court (live performance)
CD: Newport Music Festival "In Memory of Sergio Fiorentino" (1999)
-Etudes, op. 25 ##1 - 12
recorded: 4 March 1959 London, Hornsey Town Hall
LP: Summit ATL 4023 / TLS 6050 (1965)
Summit LSU 1018 (1962) (op. 25 #11 only, without slow introduction, most likely from the 1962 session when op. 10 was recorded)
BTW, I'm very impressed with what I've heard so far and I'm a bit of a Chopin Etudes fan with complete versions from
Pollini, Cziffra, Gavrilov, Wirssaladze, Cortot, Ashkenazy (both), Perahia, Arrau, Anievas, Ginzburg (Op 25) Sokolov (Op 25) and many other non complete performances.
So with only a brief comparison so far this would have to rank up with some of the top versions IMHO.
Post by: Mandryka on March 15, 2009, 10:51:29 AM
He certainly has his own way with this piece-- he makes it sound quite different from anyone else.
But then this sonata is like that. Think of the great Thirds -- My list would include Bolet and Fiorentino And Pogorelich maybe. They all sound so totally distinctive.
Anyways, I was wondering what you guys made of Gekic's Third? I like it a lot -- though I'm not totally convinced that the first movement hangs together, I think what he does with it is interesting and the rest is damn good and I am glad to own it.
Post by: orbital on March 16, 2009, 01:12:30 AM
However, there are lots of positive things to write about it. First and foremost, his ability to bring out voices that have generally been left in the dark by most other pianists. I have never heard a sonata no3 that sounds this contapuntal. Just like his Ballade no.1, it is revelatory in many ways. But the end result (not only for the first movement alone, but the whole piece) is too scholarly and is almost as it was played alongside a metronome.
I think my favorite b minor sonata is that of Virsaladze's on her Russian Piano school CD.
Post by: George on March 16, 2009, 02:41:22 AM
Post by: orbital on March 16, 2009, 03:08:22 AM
Gekic is my favorite living pianist.I have not heard enough to form a definitiv opinion yet. He certainly has a great technique and touch.
Post by: George on March 16, 2009, 07:47:58 AM
I have not heard enough to form a definitiv opinion yet. He certainly has a great technique and touch.
Yes, power, technique and poetry, that rare combination.
Post by: Mandryka on March 16, 2009, 09:15:14 AM
First and foremost, his ability to bring out voices that have generally been left in the dark by most other pianists. I have never heard a sonata no3 that sounds this contapuntal.
Agreed
But the end result (not only for the first movement alone, but the whole piece) is too scholarly and is almost as it was played alongside a metronome.
Although I have reservations as you know, I don't quite feel that. My problem with the first movement was with the logic. It didn't quite flow right.
I'll listen again with what you have said in mind though.
I think my favorite b minor sonata is that of Virsaladze's on her Russian Piano school CD.
Don't know it I'm afraid. Yet.
Gekic is my favorite living pianist.
I think he's good -- those Chopin Etudes are outstanding as is the second of the Scherzos on that CD.
Have any of you guys heard his Scriabin/Handel/Liszt CD? I feel quite tempted to buy it, dispite some knocking reviews.
Thanks for that - enjoying them now!
I have that Schubert disc it is excellent, but then again most of what SF does is.
Yes it is -- I have heard it now. I am going to buy the whole Firorentino dicography if I can.
Post by: ezodisy on March 17, 2009, 12:35:31 AM
I think he's good -- those Chopin Etudes are outstanding as is the second of the Scherzos on that CD.
I can't stand the way he plays the third scherzo from that recital. I think it sounds awful, no taste, all disjointed and flashy. The first is one of the greatest Chopin performances ever IMO though
Post by: Mandryka on March 17, 2009, 07:03:41 AM
I can't stand the way he plays the third scherzo from that recital. I think it sounds awful, no taste, all disjointed and flashy. The first is one of the greatest Chopin performances ever IMO though
You've made me worried that I mixed them up -- I'll check when I get home.
Post by: ezodisy on March 17, 2009, 08:20:48 AM
some great performances of the first scherzo - Gekic, Brand, Pogorelich, Sirota and others I'm sure
Post by: Mandryka on March 17, 2009, 09:21:12 AM
well you might not agree of course+ Bolet. + Rubinstein (early on Naxos) + Moiseiwitch. I need to check Richter -- can't remember, but I expect it was a great performance since it suits his extroversion.
some great performances of the first scherzo - Gekic, Brand, Pogorelich, Sirota and others I'm sure
And there's Cascioli -- the last time I listened I thought it was just full of bluster, but it may have been my mood rather than the performance.
Did Cortot do it? Odd how there don't seem to be any evangelical Cortot fans around. And I've never heard Michelangeli do it. Maybe he never did.
Tell me ezodisy and everyone else, how good is that Virsaladze Third Sonata that Holden rates? Is it so good it's worth the £35 being asked for it?
On the one hand it sounds a lot of money for a single CD.
On the other it's about one tank of petrol.
Post by: orbital on March 25, 2009, 06:30:57 AM
I'm curious, are picks still the same almost 2 years later?George, I owe you an apology for being so late in coming back to this :-[ :-[ :-[
The list is probably the same, mostly because I have not acquired many complete sets recently. I don't want to downgrade Ashkenazy, I think he is still pretty good in most repertoire, but he does not come up among the top choices as much)
Ballades: Barere's truncated 4th still rules for me. As for the complete set Ashkenazy is replaced by Gavrilov. I've heard many wonderful 1st ballades in the meantime though. Gekic's revelatory performance comes to mind of course. and that one by Zafariants, too)
Etudes: Ciani, Gavrilov, Cortot, Sokolov(op25) - no essential change here.
Impromptus: Rubinstein, Sokolov (Francois can be added now)
Mazurkas: Luisada Complete set, Sofronitsky, Kapell - no change here either.
Nocturnes: Tipo, Rubinstein, Moravec, Ciani (I have not samples any new complete sets since... maybe Ciccolini might be after, but he is too solemn for my taste)
Barcarolle: Arrau, Cherkassy, Freire (I have somehow missed Moravec's excellent reading until recently :o)
Fantasie op 49 : Arrau, Cherkassy,
PS 2: Brand, Sokolov (Sokolov's tops IMO, but I've also come to like Francois recently as well)
PS 3: Sokolov, Chekassy (Virsaladze added)
Preludes: Zhukov, Ashkenazy, Bolet, Pletnev, Sofronitsky (I don't know what I was thinking putting Sofronitsky in there. The more I listened to his set, the more dull it started to sound. So it is nowhere near top choice for me anymore. Take him out and add Pogorelich)
Waltzes: Rubinstein, Cortot (same)
PC's: too many to name (still too many to name, but I very much like Sokolov's both renditions for #1, the pianist I have not been able to name that plays the Tausig re-orchestrated version is very good, Hoffman is among my definite favorites, too. For the second one, I like Haskil/Markevitch the most. And you know my affection for the chamber version of both concerti. Shiraga is excellent IMO)
Post by: LouisLee on March 25, 2009, 07:08:45 AM
To continue a discussion begun on the previous board:
Off the top of my head:
Preludes: Argerich for a white-hot, extrovert performance. Moravec for a more poetic, subdued take. Both are emotional, though here (and below) I don't know about which is truer to the score.
Nocturnes: Rubinstein's second set, comes on two CD's with a great recording of the Scherzos. Or Moravec, again for his gorgeous tone and better sonics. Or Arrau, who I enjoy most of all for his deep, expressive readings.
Ballades: I really like Perahia here in all four. I like Rubinstein for a more extrovert approach.
Mazurkas: Luisada is great, very romantic with tons of rubato. Rubinstein is good too.
Etudes: Richter's my favorite here, but he didn't record them all. Ashkenazy has more refinement, but still is intense. Perahia is a bit less intense, but very poetic.
Waltzes: I recently got Lipatti here and enjoy his playing. For better sound and great performance and value, Ashkenazy is excellent. His set includes the Preludes and the Schuerzos. This 2 CD set is a great intro to his Chopin, which I find solid, consistent and impressive. Haven't heard Rubinstein, but I know that the issue on RCA red seal is a better, clearer transfer than the one that appeared in the AR Collection.
Scherzos: Rubinstein, either coupled with his Nocturnes or his later version coupled with the Ballades. Richter has these recorded with many but not all of the Preludes on Regis.
Polonaises: Ashkenazy is the only one I have heard, but they are so good I haven't looked elsewhere.
Sonatas: For all three, I really love Andsnes. His are avail cheap too. Also, Ashkenazy's are coupled with his superb Etudes. Many other pianists have recorded individual sonatas, but I think its better to start with all three, especially since #1 is neglected.
Concertos: Argerich/Dutoit great performance and sonics.
Lipatti was a genuis but died so early!!! :'(
Please don't forget Lipatti's teacher Alfred Cortot. :)
Besides the pianists you mentioned, in 1999 I attended Lasar Berman's concert in Hong Kong. His Chopin and Liszt were so great but it's quite difficult to find his CDs.
Post by: George on March 25, 2009, 09:14:23 AM
George, I owe you an apology for being so late in coming back to this :-[ :-[ :-[
Nah, but I am very glad to see that you did this for me! Thanks! :)
Quote
Ballades: Barere's truncated 4th still rules for me. As for the complete set Ashkenazy is replaced by Gavrilov. I've heard many wonderful 1st ballades in the meantime though. Gekic's revelatory performance comes to mind of course. and that one by Zafariants, too)
This is one of the reasons I asked for your list, I didn't even know that Gavrilov recorded them. No love for Tipo or Moravec, huh? Gulda's are very interesting IMO.
Quote
Etudes: Ciani, Gavrilov, Cortot, Sokolov(op25) - no essential change here.
I've heard all but the Ciani, is he your fave?
Quote
Impromptus: Rubinstein, Sokolov (Francois can be added now)
Here and elsewhere, which Rubinstein do you mean?
Quote
Mazurkas: Luisada Complete set, Sofronitsky, Kapell - no change here either.
Will get to Sofronitsky soon, as you know I love the Luisada ones. I also love Maryla Jonas's.
Quote
Nocturnes: Tipo, Rubinstein, Moravec, Ciani (I have not samples any new complete sets since... maybe Ciccolini might be after, but he is too solemn for my taste)
I have all three Rubinstein now and I think I like the first one best. Tipo is great of course, as is Moravec.
Quote
Preludes: Zhukov, Ashkenazy, Bolet, Pletnev, Sofronitsky (I don't know what I was thinking putting Sofronitsky in there. The more I listened to his set, the more dull it started to sound. So it is nowhere near top choice for me anymore. Take him out and add Pogorelich)
I need to hear that Pletnev again. Yes Pogo is great, as is Cortot's 1926? recording on Naxos. Haven't heard Zhukov, is he your fave?
Post by: George on March 25, 2009, 09:18:18 AM
Please don't forget Lipatti's teacher Alfred Cortot. :)
Yes, since the post you quoted, I have obtained the complete EMI set and the Naxos volumes. All wonderful, special stuff!
Quote
Besides the pianists you mentioned, in 1999 I attended Lasar Berman's concert in Hong Kong. His Chopin and Liszt were so great but it's quite difficult to find his CDs.
I got his Brilliant Box recently, so I'll look through it. His Moments Musicaux by Rachmaninov is great as well. PM me if you have trouble finding it. :)
Post by: jwinter on March 25, 2009, 09:44:55 AM
...I have all three Rubinstein [Nocturnes] now and I think I like the first one best.
I have them as well, but I'm still undecided. The stereo was my first and only Nocturnes for a while (other than excerpts from Vasary), so I guess I imprinted on it. I've been listening to mostly 50's Rubinstein for Chopin for a couple of weeks now, and it's definitely growing on me, but the stereo Nocturnes (and Mazurkas, and Ballades & Scherzi) are awfully darn good.
Post by: George on March 25, 2009, 09:52:23 AM
I have them as well, but I'm still undecided. The stereo was my first and only Nocturnes for a while (other than excerpts from Vasary), so I guess I imprinted on it. I've been listening to mostly 50's Rubinstein for Chopin for a couple of weeks now, and it's definitely growing on me, but the stereo Nocturnes (and Mazurkas, and Ballades & Scherzi) are awfully darn good.
I love that although I have all three, they each have their own strengths (and weaknesses.) Not that I care about such things anymore, but it is quite easy to justify having all three sets.
Post by: orbital on March 25, 2009, 10:06:33 AM
Re:Gavrilov... I think the CD was coupled with the 2nd sonata. Very good performances (as far as the set goes) IMO. My opinion of Gavrilov is quite high despite his peculiarities of late >:D His GPOC set has the Rachmaninov MM's, so I'll try and get that one soon.
This is one of the reasons I asked for your list, I didn't even know that Gavrilov recorded them. No love for Tipo or Moravec, huh? Gulda's are very interesting IMO.
I don't think I've heard Tipo in the ballades, but no real love for Moravec there. As for Gulda, I don't know. I do have them, but I have not warmed up to him in anything I've heard, including his WTC :o His preludes are abominable for my taste
Quote
I've heard all but the Ciani, is he your fave?Close to being my fave. The good part is they are live, so there is so much raw energy and tension throughout. I love it.
Quote
Here and elsewhere, which Rubinstein do you mean?Good question ;D I like his earlier (30s) mazurkas for sure. As for the nocturnes, his 50s recording. The same for the ballades (except that critical mistake in the 4th!) and scherzi.
Quote
Will get to Sofronitsky soon, as you know I love the Luisada ones. I also love Maryla Jonas's.I would recommend Kapell as well. I haven't had the chance to try out Jonas' beyond a couple.
Quote
I have all three Rubinstein now and I think I like the first one best. Tipo is great of course, as is Moravec.I don't think I've heard the middle one (Rubi).
Quote
I need to hear that Pletnev again. Yes Pogo is great, as is Cortot's 1926? recording on Naxos. Haven't heard Zhukov, is he your fave?Preludes are a special treat when they are live. This one is, so is Bolet's (plus there is the revered Arrau live which I still didn't hear... I think ::)) I have a recording of Zhukov coupled with Scriabin's op11 preludes. Very forceful approach. Here is the sample of the all important no.12 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ2KQ9Oh0lY
Post by: rubio on March 25, 2009, 10:55:16 AM
Preludes: Zhukov, Ashkenazy, Bolet, Pletnev, Sofronitsky (I don't know what I was thinking putting Sofronitsky in there. The more I listened to his set, the more dull it started to sound. So it is nowhere near top choice for me anymore. Take him out and add Pogorelich)
Nice list!
Where can I find the Pletnev preludes?
No particular love for the Scherzos (which I like very much)? :)
Post by: Mandryka on March 25, 2009, 12:54:45 PM
I have a recording of Zhukov coupled with Scriabin's op11 preludes. Very forceful approach. Here is the sample of the all important no.12 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ2KQ9Oh0lY
I world love to have that recording. Is it the complete preludes, or just a selection?
I like Zhukov very much and I have heard his Preludes on youtube and like them a lot.
I know Zhukov's Scriabin Op.11, and I agree that they are good -- but to be honest I don't much like the music.
Re Mazurkas, I find it hard to enjoy complete sets -- mazurka after mazurka after mazurka after mazurka . . . ; they don't seem to fit together too well either. So I tend to go for selections -- I think I like Jonas most, and Michelangeli.
Post by: orbital on March 26, 2009, 12:03:48 AM
I world love to have that recording. Is it the complete preludes, or just a selection?Complete Op28, but the Op11 Scriabins are incomplete.
(http://www.russiandvd.com/store/assets/product_images/imgs/front/36192.jpg)
The CD can be ordered from russiandvd.
There is also this, which is probably a reincarnation:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AT60Z33GL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Looks like this CD is discontinued, but CDBaby claims to have copies available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/evgeni102
Quote
I like Zhukov very much and I have heard his Preludes on youtube and like them a lot.Sonatas, op8 and op11 [and his Chopinesque PC] are probably my favorite Scriabin piano pieces. They are like nothing else. I recommend you give Softonitsky's op.11 a listen if you haven't had the chance to. A complete set may or may not be in existence. I do have a complete set, but sonics suggest they are collected from different recordings.
I know Zhukov's Scriabin Op.11, and I agree that they are good -- but to be honest I don't much like the music.
Quote
Re Mazurkas, I find it hard to enjoy complete sets -- mazurka after mazurka after mazurka after mazurka . . . ; they don't seem to fit together too well either. So I tend to go for selections -- I think I like Jonas most, and Michelangeli.I don't listen to whole sets in one sitting myself although there have been occasions when I've done that. They can get tiring, of course. Michelangeli recorded very few of them right? I like those that I've heard. The precious few that Moravec recorded are also worth checking out.
Post by: Peregrine on March 26, 2009, 12:31:07 AM
Post by: ezodisy on March 26, 2009, 01:02:22 AM
Post by: Peregrine on March 26, 2009, 01:13:24 AM
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=8517fa91b1f0f3714012e8015643d9c8e8f422d5efe75ddd
These are all live recordings. Some cracking stuff in there IMO
Post by: George on March 26, 2009, 03:11:36 AM
Zhukov -
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=8517fa91b1f0f3714012e8015643d9c8e8f422d5efe75ddd
These are all live recordings. Some cracking stuff in there IMO
Thanks Simon! :)
Post by: Mandryka on March 26, 2009, 08:16:21 AM
Zhukov -
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=8517fa91b1f0f3714012e8015643d9c8e8f422d5efe75ddd
These are all live recordings. Some cracking stuff in there IMO
Thankyou. I've been looking for that for ages.
Michelangeli recorded very few of them right? I like those that I've heard. The precious few that Moravec recorded are also worth checking out.
Agreed about Moravec
Yes, ABM recorded just about a half dozen, but I cherish them. He seems to come straight to the point, to the heart of the music (that's nonsense I know but . . . )
Here's Jonas -- whom I also cherish for a sort of meloncholy:
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=c5efdaabf63a08b7e62ea590dc5e5dbbef871c70c0b75781c95965eaa7bc68bc
I'll upload some Michelangeli Mazurkas over the weekend.
Are there any fans of Horowitz's Mazurkas out there?
Post by: jwinter on March 26, 2009, 09:48:06 AM
Zhukov -
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=8517fa91b1f0f3714012e8015643d9c8e8f422d5efe75ddd
These are all live recordings. Some cracking stuff in there IMO
Much obliged, very curious to hear his Preludes :)
Post by: Peregrine on March 26, 2009, 11:13:04 AM
Thanks Simon! :)
Thankyou. I've been looking for that for ages.
Much obliged, very curious to hear his Preludes :)
No worries, hope you enjoy what you hear :)
Post by: Mandryka on March 26, 2009, 02:05:30 PM
Etudes: Ciani. . .
I've heard people mention this guy over the years, but I have never heard him play.
Well -- your comment made me curious again so I checked him out on youtube -- there's a nocturne: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqoCR2R6eL8
It seems very interesting to me. I'm curious about what other people think of this pianist as the only way to hear his etudes seems to involve a non - trivial investment in a 6 CD box!
Ballades: Barere's truncated 4th still rules for me.
I like that too. But I think I prefer Moiseiwitsch.
Post by: Holden on March 26, 2009, 07:32:47 PM
I've heard people mention this guy over the years, but I have never heard him play.
Well -- your comment made me curious again so I checked him out on youtube -- there's a nocturne: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqoCR2R6eL8
It seems very interesting to me. I'm curious about what other people think of this pianist as the only way to hear his etudes seems to involve a non - trivial investment in a 6 CD box!
I like that too. But I think I prefer Moiseiwitsch.
I've got the Ciani etudes and while interperpretatively they are not my number one choice, the live venue coupled with Ciani's excellent musicainship, puts them close.
Post by: orbital on March 26, 2009, 10:00:11 PM
I've heard people mention this guy over the years, but I have never heard him play.He also has a live nocturnes set. It may be one of the very few instances where listening to their recording may beat actually being there :D
Well -- your comment made me curious again so I checked him out on youtube -- there's a nocturne: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqoCR2R6eL8
It seems very interesting to me. I'm curious about what other people think of this pianist as the only way to hear his etudes seems to involve a non - trivial investment in a 6 CD box!
Post by: Mandryka on March 26, 2009, 10:33:13 PM
http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=529681
Post by: George on March 27, 2009, 02:32:07 AM
He also has a live nocturnes set. It may be one of the very few instances where listening to their recording may beat actually being there :D
Why is that?
Post by: orbital on March 27, 2009, 02:57:22 AM
Why is that?21 nocturnes in a row is not the ideal Chopin program IMO. Too one dimensional... put a scherzi in there between every 4 or so op. $:)
Post by: George on March 27, 2009, 02:58:32 AM
21 nocturnes in a row is not the ideal Chopin program IMO. Too one dimensional... put a scherzi in there between every 4 or so op. $:)
Oh, OK, I see what you mean.
Post by: Mandryka on March 28, 2009, 11:54:38 AM
And yes, it is very very good (at least in the Etudes . Haven't played the Waltzes yet.)
There's a great pulse and verve to the Etudes. Tempos seem always just right. He makes a really clear clean sound from the piano. All the voices are really nicely layered. You get a good sense of the structure to the longer Etudes. Technically he's pretty damn good. He can play the fast etudes fast. The singing passages flow. And there's never too much cloying melancholy -- I think he's really at his best in the Etudes which sparkle -- The Revolutionary etude was very nice, as was the Butterfly (I like those nicknames!)
I think I prefer him to Cherkassky, and I think I like him more than Ginsberg in the Opus 10s. In fact, it may just be the best complete Opus 10 set I know.
It's harder to comment about his Opus 25s -- the competition seems stronger there (Sokolov, Ginsberg, Ashkenazi )
Can anyone recommend any other good Abbey Simon Chopin records?
Post by: Holden on March 28, 2009, 12:48:37 PM
I just brushed the dust off this CD -- hadn't heard it for years.
And yes, it is very very good (at least in the Etudes . Haven't played the Waltzes yet.)
There's a great pulse and verve to the Etudes. Tempos seem always just right. He makes a really clear clean sound from the piano. All the voices are really nicely layered. You get a good sense of the structure to the longer Etudes. Technically he's pretty damn good. He can play the fast etudes fast. The singing passages flow. And there's never too much cloying melancholy -- I think he's really at his best in the Etudes which sparkle -- The Revolutionary etude was very nice, as was the Butterfly (I like those nicknames!)
I think I prefer him to Cherkassky, and I think I like him more than Ginsberg in the Opus 10s.
Ginsberg recorded Op 10?
Post by: Herman on March 28, 2009, 01:02:42 PM
Post by: Mandryka on March 29, 2009, 08:47:49 AM
If I may ask: when Simon plays the "complete" Waltzes, how many are we looking at? Fourteen or more?
You get 19 waltzes. I think that's the whole shooting match, except for one which is of disputed authenticity, and, of course, the lost waltzes.
Talking of waltzes, I am curious to hear Gianluco Cascioli's waltzes -- there are three of them on his scherzo CD, but I know he recorded more on LP. Does anyone have them/know where I can get a copy? (I don't have a turntable any more.)
Ginsberg recorded Op 10?
Ah. That explains why Ginsburg's record of the Opus 10s hasn't registered positively with me. It doesn't exist.
In that case I'll tentatively go one step further than I did in the original post -- Abbey Simon's CD is the best non historical (i.e. not Cortot or Moiseiwitsch ) Opus 10 performance I know (there are big lacunas to what I've heard though -- I haven't heard Cziffra, for example)
No worries, hope you enjoy what you hear :)
Well I've only listened to the sonata so far and I do like what I hear.
My initial reaction is that the first movement is rather turbulant (no problem with that) and that it has the an outstanding final movement.
Thanks again.
Post by: DarkAngel on March 29, 2009, 05:46:15 PM
You get 19 waltzes. I think that's the whole shooting match, except for one which is of disputed authenticity, and, of course, the lost waltzes.
In that case I'll tentatively go one step further than I did in the original post -- Abbey Simon's CD is the best non historical (i.e. not Cortot or Moiseiwitsch ) Opus 10 performance I know (there are big lacunas to what I've heard though -- I haven't heard Cziffra, for example)
The best way to get more Abbey is with two more Vox Box releases:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PRQ6A0EDL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kfk1HEPtL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I own two of the three and think he is a real sleeper among Chopin performers, almost unknown. His waltzes as you say are about the best stereo versions available (I like them better than Cziffra). My preferred versions are historical with Lipatti/EMI and Cortot/Naxos getting the most play time for waltzes
Post by: Herman on March 30, 2009, 12:35:04 AM
BTW I seem to recall there was a discussion on the old forum in which a surprizing number of people agreed that the Lipatti Waltzes is rather overrated. The recording may be a self-perpetuating legend.
Post by: Holden on March 30, 2009, 12:08:37 PM
I really don't need to hear more than one or two wlatzes in a recital, but the thing all recordings I have are 1 - 14 and maybe I'd like to have the post-posthumous ones, too.
BTW I seem to recall there was a discussion on the old forum in which a surprizing number of people agreed that the Lipatti Waltzes is rather overrated. The recording may be a self-perpetuating legend.
I was one of those but have slightly revised my opinion since hearing the almost complete set from the Besancon recital. These are actually quite passable but would still not rate in my top 3. (Ashkenazy, Anievas and Cziffra). The two studio recordings also differ from each other with one of them being what I call 'effeminate' in its approach. Overall, I find Lipatti to be very overrated.
Post by: Dr. Dread on March 30, 2009, 12:13:18 PM
The two studio recordings also differ from each other with one of them being what I call 'effeminate' in its approach.
This is music, not wrestling. ;D
Post by: aquablob on March 30, 2009, 01:44:52 PM
I was one of those but have slightly revised my opinion since hearing the almost complete set from the Besancon recital. These are actually quite passable but would still not rate in my top 3. (Ashkenazy, Anievas and Cziffra).
Which Cziffra—early '60s (14 waltzes) or late '70s (19 waltzes)?
Post by: Holden on March 31, 2009, 01:45:49 AM
Which Cziffra—early '60s (14 waltzes) or late '70s (19 waltzes)?
I feel that Cziffra lets the waltzes breathe much better in his 1962 recording and some of the insights he shows don't appear in the recordings he made 15 years later. If you compare him directly with Lipatti in the '14' he wins hands down. This is true dance music and Cziffra really brings this out whereas Lipatti tends to try and emphasise the lyrical side. This is why I like the recordings that Ashkenazy and Augustin Anievas made, the music sparkles and dances.
Post by: Mandryka on April 02, 2009, 03:14:47 AM
I think my favorite b minor sonata is that of Virsaladze's on her Russian Piano school CD.
Listenting to it now, and it makes quite an impact.
Thanks for putting me on to it.
Post by: orbital on April 02, 2009, 04:57:43 AM
I'm glad you enjoyed it :)
Listenting to it now, and it makes quite an impact.
Thanks for putting me on to it.
Post by: Mandryka on April 18, 2009, 06:12:43 AM
I haven't heard the concertos, but in the solo music it's marvelous the way he takes away all the fuzzy romantic mist -- and you can hear so clearly the harmonies, the different voices.
It's as if he finds the counterpoint -- but I think it still sings.
I have heard some people say his Chopin is monochromatic, mechanical, angry. Well -- not what I have heard.
He's not perfect like Michelangeli. But he does something with the music that I find really interesting and expressive. And although it may fly in the face of performance traditions and (for all I know) the score itself, I think it is so authentically and poetically done that I am happy to hear it.
Anyway -- I thought I'd just see if there were any other Weissenberg fans around.
Post by: George on April 18, 2009, 06:20:36 AM
I've decided that I like Weissenberg's Chopin -- a lot.
I haven't heard the concertos, but in the solo music it's marvelous the way he takes away all the fuzzy romantic mist -- and you can hear so clearly the harmonies, the different voices.
It's as if he finds the counterpoint -- but I think it still sings.
I have heard some people say his Chopin is monochromatic, mechanical, angry. Well -- not what I have heard.
He's not perfect like Michelangeli. But he does something with the music that I find really interesting and expressive. And although it may fly in the face of performance traditions and (for all I know) the score itself, I think it is so authentically and poetically done that I am happy to hear it.
Anyway -- I thought I'd just see if there were any other Weissenberg fans around.
Thanks for your description, I am now curious to hear some of his Chopin, especially the Ballades or Scherzos. His Rachmaninov preludes were not quite my cup of tea so I am cautious...
I know that orbital is a big fan of the pianist. He should be along soon... 8)
Post by: orbital on April 18, 2009, 06:28:46 AM
Anyway -- I thought I'd just see if there were any other Weissenberg fans around.(http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:rJJtiCWdwa4kKM:http://www.filmreference.com/images/sjff_01_img0485.jpg)
You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? Then who the hell else are you talking... you talking to me? ;D
I'm a Weissenberg fan, definitely. But I am not sure about his Chopin. His 2nd concerto is good, but my view is that a detached Chopin is better served by Francois (whom I assume you like in Chopin?)
Post by: orbital on April 18, 2009, 06:51:49 AM
Thanks for your description, I am now curious to hear some of his Chopin, especially the Ballades or Scherzos. His Rachmaninov preludes were not quite my cup of tea so I am cautious...I am not sure if I've heard his Ballades ::) I have to check. But his nocturnes and sonatas are not very interesting. If you want to hear something, I'd recommend you start with the concerti (but you don't like them much, right?)
I like his Rachmaninov. If you want something you are not going to like for sure, try his Debussy >:D
Post by: George on April 18, 2009, 07:23:26 AM
I am not sure if I've heard his Ballades ::) I have to check. But his nocturnes and sonatas are not very interesting. If you want to hear something, I'd recommend you start with the concerti (but you don't like them much, right?)
Right. Though I love the slow movements.
Quote
I like his Rachmaninov. If you want something you are not going to like for sure, try his Debussy >:D
I'll remember to forget to try it. :-*
Post by: Mandryka on April 18, 2009, 08:35:51 AM
I But his nocturnes and sonatas are not very interesting.
Well -- what I'm saying is -- what I have become fascinated by is that he brings out the counterpoint.
You may say it's counterpoint which doesn't really exist -- but I'm not so sure. He emphasises the way all the different tunes all twist and dance around each other.
Also there's a cleanness about his piano tone which I like -- there's a place for the romantic soft focus of someone like Pletnev or Moravec, but I think it's refreshing to hear it played all sharp.
And I think that's very interesting. Especially in the nocturnes which can suffer from being over romanticised. You know what I mean -- played too plaintively.
He's not the best , like I said. He's not Micheangeli. He's not Sirota. He's not even Tipo. But I would argue that what he does is very valuable.
I can imagine his Debussy may be a bit forceful -- a bit too much sf. But I'm happy to give it a try.
Post by: orbital on April 18, 2009, 08:54:05 AM
Well -- what I'm saying is -- what I have become fascinated by is that he brings out the counterpoint.There is counterpoint. We had a long and very educating discussion about cp in Chopin a while ago. Some insights by Luke in that thread have opened my ears to a very different Chopin, in fact. And after hearing Gekic play the g minor ballade, there is no doubt in my mind that Chopin did not only include cp in his music but he had mastered it.
You may say it's counterpoint which doesn't really exist -- but I'm not so sure. He emphasises the way all the different tunes all twist and dance around each other.
Quote
Also there's a cleanness about his piano tone which I like -- there's a place for the romantic soft focus of someone like Pletnev or Moravec, but I think it's refreshing to hear it played all sharp.Yes, I can understand that. THat's why I mentioned Francois. Maybe he is not as sharp but his anti-romantic approach in general satisfies my thirst for such Chopin.
Chopin and Weissenberg, for me, is like clash of the titans. But Chopin wins :-*
Quote
And I think that's very interesting. Especially in the nocturnes which can suffer from being over romanticised. You know what I mean -- played too plaintively.God, I've grown to hate that. I can't bring myself to listen to the likes of Pires or Arrau in Nocturnes. Stop with the whining and play already ;D
Quote
I can imagine his Debussy may be a bit forceful -- a bit too much sf. But I'm happy to give it a try.It is forceful, yes. It would not be my first choice, but it is almost a guilty pleasure to hear some Debussy that is not dreamy.
His Scarlatti recordings are a must too, if you have not heard them yet. Can you imagine him in K87?
Post by: Herman on April 18, 2009, 10:51:07 PM
Well -- what I'm saying is -- what I have become fascinated by is that he brings out the counterpoint.
You may say it's counterpoint which doesn't really exist -- but I'm not so sure. He emphasises the way all the different tunes all twist and dance around each other.
Indeed, if you look at the previous incarnation of GMG you'll probably find that discussion on Chopin's mastery of counterpoint. (My guess it's in Fighting over Chopin, too - you can just google those three words and you're there. Only on GMG!.)
All really interesting Chopin works are not just informed by beautiful melody but also by counterpoint. And most (if not all) good performers bring out Chopin's counterpoint. This is not the same BTW as putting the bottom on top, so to speak.
Post by: Mandryka on April 19, 2009, 01:28:22 AM
. This is not the same BTW as putting the bottom on top, so to speak.
OK.
So who does Chopin well, do you think? -- who brings out the counterpoint and hiding obscurig the melodic beauty?
You see -- I think Weissenberg achieves it -- especially on his DVD.
Maybe Michelangeli too, the more I think about it.
THat's why I mentioned Francois.
Francois I don't know at all -- but your comments have encouraged me to check him out.
it is almost a guilty pleasure to hear some Debussy that is not dreamy.
I must say I am gobsmacked by Michelangeli's Debussy.
Post by: George on April 19, 2009, 04:03:29 AM
I must say I am gobsmacked by Michelangeli's Debussy.
Me too, buddy! :)
Post by: Coopmv on April 19, 2009, 05:06:39 AM
Me too, buddy! :)
What are some of the best Michelangeli's recordings? I think I have some on DG LP but have to search for it ...
Post by: George on April 19, 2009, 05:17:16 AM
What are some of the best Michelangeli's recordings? I think I have some on DG LP but have to search for it ...
Just started this up (as I am no expert on Michelangeli and I am as curious as you are)- Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,12185.msg300195.html#msg300195) :)
Post by: Lilas Pastia on May 12, 2009, 07:18:06 PM
Post by: jwinter on May 13, 2009, 04:00:56 AM
...manfully handled by Janusz Olejiczak...
Somehow I think the mental image I'm having is not the mental image you were having... ;D
Post by: Drasko on May 27, 2009, 12:46:51 PM
the pianist I have not been able to name that plays the Tausig re-orchestrated version is very good,
You haven't been looking close enough to home. The perpetrator is Istanbul born, armenian-french pianist Setrak Yavruyan (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setrak). Orchestra is Baltic Philharmonic under Wojciech Rajski.
If you're interested in other achievements of Mr.Setrak (that is usually how's he billed) he recorded complete Bizet piano music on HM (had no idea Bizet composed for piano, let alone two disc worth).
Post by: dirkronk on May 27, 2009, 01:27:46 PM
If you're interested in other achievements of Mr.Setrak (that is usually how's he billed) he recorded complete Bizet piano music on HM (had no idea Bizet composed for piano, let alone two disc worth).
I recall Setrak coming to San Antonio back in the very late 1970s or (more probably) early 1980s. Played a couple of concerts and showed up at a record store for an album signing. Somewhere around here, I've got an original gatefold LP album of Liszt by Setrak, though I don't recall offhand whether I ever got him to sign it...
:)
Dirk
Post by: Bunny on May 27, 2009, 02:30:56 PM
There is counterpoint. We had a long and very educating discussion about cp in Chopin a while ago. Some insights by Luke in that thread have opened my ears to a very different Chopin, in fact. And after hearing Gekic play the g minor ballade, there is no doubt in my mind that Chopin did not only include cp in his music but he had mastered it.
Yes, I can understand that. THat's why I mentioned Francois. Maybe he is not as sharp but his anti-romantic approach in general satisfies my thirst for such Chopin.
Chopin and Weissenberg, for me, is like clash of the titans. But Chopin wins :-*
God, I've grown to hate that. I can't bring myself to listen to the likes of Pires or Arrau in Nocturnes. Stop with the whining and play already ;D
It is forceful, yes. It would not be my first choice, but it is almost a guilty pleasure to hear some Debussy that is not dreamy.
His Scarlatti recordings are a must too, if you have not heard them yet. Can you imagine him in K87?
ArkivMusic has re-issued his Scarlatti, but if he has more than one Scarlatti recording I'm not aware of it.
Post by: Coopmv on May 27, 2009, 05:51:49 PM
Post by: Bunny on May 28, 2009, 02:01:39 PM
How about this EMI 3-LP set? I have owned this pristine set for 20 years - played probably only once ...
And how was it?
Post by: Coopmv on May 28, 2009, 03:38:27 PM
And how was it?
It was probably at least 10 years since I last played it. The piano playing was excellent from what I can remember ...
Post by: Bunny on May 28, 2009, 05:50:10 PM
It was probably at least 10 years since I last played it. The piano playing was excellent from what I can remember ...
Ten years between playings? No wonder I don't bother with vinyl anymore! It's just too perishable. I don't suppose that was ever released on cd, or was it? No matter, it would be oop by now, anyway. Pity!
Post by: George on May 28, 2009, 05:54:06 PM
Ten years between playings? No wonder I don't bother with vinyl anymore! It's just too perishable. I don't suppose that was ever released on cd, or was it? No matter, it would be oop by now, anyway. Pity!
I know. The major labels are waaaaay overdue to make the entire current and OOP catalog available for legal downloads. I can't figure out why they haven't already done this, but then much of what labels do or do not do make little sense to me. :-\
Post by: Bunny on May 28, 2009, 05:58:51 PM
Post by: Coopmv on May 28, 2009, 06:54:19 PM
Ten years between playings? No wonder I don't bother with vinyl anymore! It's just too perishable. I don't suppose that was ever released on cd, or was it? No matter, it would be oop by now, anyway. Pity!
I really have no clue if this set has ever been released on CD. You never know about these record companies. Philips let most of the recordings by the late Swiss harpsichordist Christiane Jaccottet to go OOP. Jaccottet was an outstanding harpsichordist. I came across this 40-CD set by some small German label a few weeks ago. Lo and behold, all Jaccottet's Bach harpsichord works are found in this set. I bought the set just to get these works by her ...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51p63cCYYLL._SS500_.jpg)
Post by: Bunny on June 10, 2009, 01:59:24 PM
Chopin Nocturnes (Intégrale) - Pascal Amoyel
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/410TAYZD8DL._SS400_.jpg)
Post by: George on June 10, 2009, 02:06:33 PM
Seriously, though - it looks like sidoze was also interested in this pianist's work as well (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/browse_frm/thread/1becc18273f965c/eeb43266eb38e0b1?lnk=gst&q=Amoyel+Nocturnes+Chopin+#eeb43266eb38e0b1) Perhaps if he returns he have something to say about the CDs.
Post by: Bunny on June 10, 2009, 04:32:03 PM
I think I used to buy weed from that dude in high school. ;D
Seriously, though - it looks like sidoze was also interested in this pianist's work as well (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/browse_frm/thread/1becc18273f965c/eeb43266eb38e0b1?lnk=gst&q=Amoyel+Nocturnes+Chopin+#eeb43266eb38e0b1) Perhaps if he returns he have something to say about the CDs.
Quoting your link:
I've read a couple that cite his complete Chopin Nocturnes as a reference recording.
Reference Recording? That doesn't happen often, but then again that's from French critics writing about a French pianist. If I can't find it available here for a reasonable price, I may just buy it at Itunes. The samples sound very, very good as opposed to samples of Michèle Boegner's Nocturnes Integrale which sound awful! The samples I heard make the piano sound as if it has a warped, or in some other way damaged soundboard. I only hope that those samples do not actually reflect the sound of the album accurately. If the piano does have a bad soundboard, which is entirely possible with a piano from 1836, then they shouldn't be using it except as a curiousity, certainly not for an intégrale.
Post by: Brian on June 10, 2009, 04:40:26 PM
Quoting your link:It is an 1836 piano, original parts. The samples are accurate. I looooooove that Boegner disc ... one of my favorites, almost the only nocturnes I listen to these days 8)
I've read a couple that cite his complete Chopin Nocturnes as a reference recording.
Reference Recording? That doesn't happen often, but then again that's from French critics writing about a French pianist. If I can't find it available here for a reasonable price, I may just buy it at Itunes. The samples sound very, very good as opposed to samples of Michèle Boegner's Nocturnes Integrale which sound awful! The samples I heard make the piano sound as if it has a warped, or in some other way damaged soundboard. I only hope that those samples do not actually reflect the sound of the album accurately. If the piano does have a bad soundboard, which is entirely possible with a piano from 1836, then they shouldn't be using it except as a curiousity, certainly not for an intégrale.
Post by: FideLeo on June 10, 2009, 06:47:17 PM
It is an 1836 piano, original parts. The samples are accurate. I looooooove that Boegner disc ... one of my favorites, almost the only nocturnes I listen to these days 8)
Me, too. And the piano surely has nice looks! :)
(http://homepage.mac.com/tupichan/cosmos/Nocturnes-Boegner.jpg)
Post by: Dr. Dread on June 11, 2009, 03:25:00 AM
It is an 1836 piano, original parts. The samples are accurate. I looooooove that Boegner disc ... one of my favorites, almost the only nocturnes I listen to these days 8)
How many sets do you own?
Post by: ezodisy on June 11, 2009, 07:48:58 AM
Late last night I was going through Itunes on my Ipod Touch looking for a new recording of Chopin's Nocturnes and came across the recording shown below. Further "research" came up with a 10/10 review at ClassicsToday France by Christophe Huss. It's also available as a download from Amazon, but there's no sign of it ever having been released as a cd in the USA -- no listing at ArkivMusic.com and nothing at BRO either. Has anyone heard this, or heard about it? I hesitate because it's a pain ordering from the EC nowadays because of the constantly fluctuating currencies, and the nasty fees being charged by the credit cards for the currency exchange services, so I really want to make sure that it's going to be worth every penny I would be shelling out. Btw, the samples at Itunes and Amazon sound really nice. Note: the cover shown at Amazon download store is for a different album; Itunes shows the correct cover.
Chopin Nocturnes (Intégrale) - Pascal Amoyel
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/410TAYZD8DL._SS400_.jpg)
I always wanted to hear this but didn't get around to it. Review it if you download it please
Post by: Brian on June 11, 2009, 08:24:28 AM
How many sets do you own?Arrau, Pires, Rubenstein, Boegner. Not too many.
Post by: Dr. Dread on June 11, 2009, 08:28:11 AM
Arrau, Pires, Rubenstein, Boegner. Not too many.
That's a good bunch. I don't have Boegner. :(
Post by: Herman on June 11, 2009, 09:40:01 AM
Arrau, Pires, Rubinstein, Boegner. Not too many.
You might want to check out Moravec's Nocturnes.
Post by: Holden on June 11, 2009, 11:27:52 AM
You might want to check out Moravec's Nocturnes.
I want to check out Fiorentino's complete Nocturnes but fear that they will never be released on CD.
Post by: Dr. Dread on June 11, 2009, 11:41:19 AM
You might want to check out Moravec's Nocturnes.
Those have been on my back-burner forever.
Post by: George on July 01, 2009, 05:53:57 AM
The Complete Works of Fryderyk Chopin on historical instruments, in a version close to the original. This project is realised on historical instruments from Chopin's times: pianos by Erard (Paris, 1849) and Pleyel (Paris, 1848). Both instruments are excellently preserved, meeting every requirement for concert performance, and allow Chopin's music to be heard just as it was written. Key features of the instruments' construction and mechanism, allied to their characteristic tonal qualities, create a different set of possibilities for interpretation from those of modern-day pianos. These new recordings of the complete works of Chopin allow contemporary listeners to discover the historical models, bringing us closer to Romantic times and revealing the long forgotten soundworld of that era.
The first CDs contain the following recordings:
* Fou Ts' ong - Mazurkas
* Nelson Goerner - Ballades, 3 Nocturnes
* Ka Ling Colleen Lee - Polonaise-fantasy in A flat major, Fantasy in F minor, Sonata in B minor, Mazurkas, Preludes
* Dang Thai Son and the Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century/Frans Brüggen - Concerto in F minor, Op. 21, Concerto in E minor, Op. 11
* Wojciech Świtała - Preludes
* Tatiana Shebanova - Waltzes, Barcarola, Berceuse, Ecossaises
* Tatiana Shebanova - Etudes
* Janusz Olejniczak - Sonata in B flat minor, Op. 35, Scherzo in B flat minor, Nocturnes, Mazurkas, Waltzes
* Nelson Goerner - Works for piano and orchestra
* Kevin Kenner - Scherzo in C sharp minor, Polonaise in c minor,
Op. 40/2, 4 Impromptus, Nocturnes, Op. 32 no. 1 and 2, Mazurkas, Op. 59, Prelude in C sharp minor, Prelude in A flat major
Forthcoming:
* Dina Yoffe - Scherzos in B minor and E major, Polonaise in E Flat minor, Mazurkas, Nocturnes
* Janusz Olejniczak - Polonaises in F sharp minor op. 44, in A major op. 40 No. 1, in A flat op. 53, Nocturnes, Mazurkas
* Andrzej Bauer, Jakub Jakowicz, Krzysztof Broja - Chamber music: Introduction and Polonaise in C major for piano and cello op. 3, Trio in G minor for piano, violin and cello op. 8, Grand duo concertante in E major for piano and cello Sonata in G minor for piano and cello op. 65
* Dang Thai Son - Nocturnes (selection)
More Information Here (http://en.chopin.nifc.pl/institute/publications/musics) and here. (http://tinyurl.com/ntytuu)
Post by: Maciek on July 01, 2009, 06:09:46 AM
At the end of last year a Diapason d'Or was awarded to Nelson Goerner's recordings from the Chopin HIP series I mentioned once (a long time ago on the other thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,4659.msg134111.html#msg134111)). Has anyone heard those? Could anyone comment?
Post by: George on July 01, 2009, 06:10:20 AM
That's the series I was asking about half a year ago.
Sorry the response was so late. ;D
Post by: Bunny on July 01, 2009, 06:45:43 AM
I always wanted to hear this but didn't get around to it. Review it if you download it please
I finally found that available at tower.com, and just loaded it in the cd player. The first piece is the Berceuse and it's really, really good. I only wish I had the time to sit and listen to it carefully right now, but it's going to be a day filled with things put off for too long. ::)
Booklet says that Amoyel is playing an old Steinway, and it does not sound like the modern Model D. The tone is a bit softer, a less bell like tone -- slightly muffled, nasal in quality -- more like the pre World War 2 Steinways. He also says that he is using the pedal far less because the period pianos had less reverberance than modern pianos so he is going to approximate that sound. I'll post more when I've had more of a chance to listen.
Post by: George on July 02, 2009, 03:23:15 PM
Post by: Coopmv on July 03, 2009, 03:27:09 AM
Just found this great Chopin link (http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics3/chopinwaltzes.html) :)
Morning, Great link, thanks George. It has been bookmarked so I can check it out later ...
Post by: Mandryka on August 04, 2009, 08:06:30 AM
This combines the drama of Natan Brand with the intensity and singing legato of Michelangeli.
The sound is very good -- it's like having Cortot playing in your living room.
It's mindbogglingly great.
What I now need to do is reappraise his earlier recordings in the light of what I now know about the piano tone he made.
And what sonority!-- so dramatic, at times percussive even, at times hallucinatory.
Post by: George on August 04, 2009, 10:24:06 AM
Post by: Peregrine on August 04, 2009, 12:21:13 PM
I think I used to buy weed from that dude in high school. ;D
;D
Post by: George on August 04, 2009, 12:28:27 PM
;D
;)
Post by: Brian on August 04, 2009, 02:22:59 PM
B flat minor sonata -- Alfred Cortot -- Naxos (Obert-Thorn) -- rec. 1953Shoot! I thought about ordering that earlier this year when it was on sale for $5 at MDT, but didn't. :( :(
This combines the drama of Natan Brand with the intensity and singing legato of Michelangeli.
The sound is very good -- it's like having Cortot playing in your living room.
It's mindbogglingly great.
What I now need to do is reappraise his earlier recordings in the light of what I now know about the piano tone he made.
And what sonority!-- so dramatic, at times percussive even, at times hallucinatory.
Post by: George on August 04, 2009, 02:26:55 PM
Shoot! I thought about ordering that earlier this year when it was on sale for $5 at MDT, but didn't. :( :(
I got a ton of those Naxos CDs on my wishlist. I am sure another sale will come along. :)
Post by: Coopmv on August 04, 2009, 03:50:01 PM
I got a ton of those Naxos CDs on my wishlist. I am sure another sale will come along. :)
The only problem is the same MDT deals on Naxos Historical that were offered back in March will not be quite as good since the exchange rate has gone from the 1.40's to almost 1.70's.
Post by: George on August 04, 2009, 04:21:16 PM
The only problem is the same MDT deals on Naxos Historical that were offered back in March will not be quite as good since the exchange rate has gone from the 1.40's to almost 1.70's.
True, but those Naxos are a steal even at their current price IMO.
Post by: Coopmv on August 04, 2009, 05:18:26 PM
True, but those Naxos are a steal even at their current price IMO.
I sure am glad that I bought all those Cortot Chopin CD's on Naxos Historical back in March. My thanks to George for giving me the heads up ...
Post by: Mandryka on August 04, 2009, 08:15:22 PM
I imagine that Chopin Piano Sonata performance is also in the multi-volume Cortot Chopin series on Naxos? Can you tell me the date of that recording, Mandryka?
1953
Post by: George on August 05, 2009, 01:45:47 AM
1953
Thanks, the date on mine is much earlier than that.
Post by: Mandryka on August 05, 2009, 03:59:42 AM
Sure -- it's a bit of a fast interpretation.
And maybe there are slips -- but they don't bother me at all.
What is amazing is you can actually hear what St Alfred Cortot sounded like in this sonata -- the piano sound is like, hi fi quality.
And that gives you a completely fresh perspective on those earlier recordings.
The Kinderszenen on the same CD is good too -- but I prefer the one from the 40s on APR. But both are good really -- the 194os Kinderszenen is slightly faster, the later one has slightly more speces between the notes, if you get my meaning.
Post by: George on August 05, 2009, 04:02:32 AM
You gotta get it George -- it is a real revelation.
Sure -- it's a bit of a fast interpretation.
And maybe there are slips -- but they don't bother me at all.
What is amazing is you can actually hear what St Alfred Cortot sounded like in this sonata -- the piano sound is like, hi fi quality.
And that gives you a completely fresh perspective on those earlier recordings.
I'll add to my bulging, 16+ page wishlist. ;D
Post by: Coopmv on August 05, 2009, 03:36:34 PM
I'll add to my bulging, 16+ page wishlist. ;D
If the stock market advances another 15%, my shopping list will only lengthen by 15% ... ;D
Post by: Drasko on September 06, 2009, 07:47:09 AM
At the end of last year a Diapason d'Or was awarded to Nelson Goerner's recordings from the Chopin HIP series I mentioned once (a long time ago on the other thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,4659.msg134111.html#msg134111)). Has anyone heard those? Could anyone comment?
Almost an hour was alloted to first ten discs from that set at yesterdays CD Review on BBC radio 3. Reviewers were quite enthusiastic about Goerner. Have to say I was more impressed by Wojciech Switala, might even buy that disc of preludes.
You can listen to the program till next Saturday:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00mj7r9
Post by: Maciek on September 06, 2009, 10:10:42 PM
[I think I actually own one Wojciech Świtała Chopin disc, probably this one (http://www.bearton.pl/sklep/index.php?idt=5&lang=en&value=USD), but I'd have to dig it up to make sure... :-[ ]
Post by: Maciek on September 06, 2009, 11:15:00 PM
Funny how they call Goerner (40) "a bit old now", while they think that Świtała is "young" ("the younger player")...
(Świtała is, of course, 2 years older than Goerner. ::))
Post by: Mandryka on September 07, 2009, 02:38:39 AM
I know he has his loyal followers.
I have some bootleg stuff of his from concerts -- all Chopin -- lots of Etudes, some nocturnes. And I must say I think he's very good. He's got a face, a personality.
Post by: ccar on September 20, 2009, 10:13:26 AM
Two mytical almost forgotten pianist-interpreters. Very few recordings. But the musicality and subtle colours they left in Chopin (try the Mazurkas and the Nocturnes) may be a rare experience.
Carlos
Post by: Herman on September 20, 2009, 10:50:47 AM
Post by: Drasko on September 20, 2009, 11:31:01 AM
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,4659.msg179511.html#msg179511
Post by: George on September 20, 2009, 11:49:48 AM
I have the Maryla Jonas cd and it's pretty cool.
Absolutely!
Post by: ccar on October 02, 2009, 12:49:27 PM
Askenase has a box on DG that has quite a full selection - nicely played, he certainly had a natural feel for the composer, but personally find it a bit lightweight and prissy, although kept the waltzes as enjoyed them a fair bit.
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/archipelrecordsarpcd0422.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RSNY39S6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Recently, Archipel published some 1950's recordings by Stefan Askenase - a 2CD mix with various Chopin, the Kinderszenen and 2 Mozart concerti.
We don't hear much about this polish pianist. He was probably best Known as a prestigious teacher in Brussels (one of his students was Martha Argerich) but he performed and recorded quietly, mostly Chopin, in the 1950-70’s. The 2004 DG Original Masters set may help a new generation to (re)discover him.
This is the kind of pianist who could not have a glittering career at the concert stage. His way is not fast, dazzling nor brilliant. But when you take the time to listen there is, at least for me, a subtle, imaginative and very individual handling of the musical phrasing. Somehow I find myself enjoying his individual mixture of slow tempi, a very crystalline tone and a tasteful but very free use of rubato and dynamics. Old school sensibility perhaps but the musical artistry was certainly there.
Carlos
Post by: LapsangS on November 05, 2009, 05:44:10 AM
http://music.ibiblio.org/pub/multimedia/pandora/vorbis/historical_instruments/Chopin_etudes/index.html (http://music.ibiblio.org/pub/multimedia/pandora/vorbis/historical_instruments/Chopin_etudes/index.html)
Post by: Mandryka on December 10, 2009, 11:34:35 AM
So to cheer myself up I dusted down Pletnev's record of the B-minor sonata today and gave it a spin.
Well, I hadn't appreciated before what a strikingly original interpretation this is, and I think it is totally convincing. Bryce Morrison in Gramophone disses it because he says that the first movement doesn't flow. Either he needs some new ears or I do because to me it flows beautifully (maybe my cold helps.)
And the slow movement is startlingly impressionistic -- quite unlike any other performance I have heard.
I am going to listen again to all Pletnev's Chopin this weekend.
Does anyone have any bootlegs? -- I have the Amsterdam Preludes and I am looking forward to revisiting them
Post by: George on December 10, 2009, 12:39:16 PM
I have a cold (hope it's not flu.)
Me to, bro. I am dosing every three hours with The Wellness Formula. (http://www.sourcenaturals.com/products/GP1345/)
Post by: Peregrine on December 10, 2009, 01:03:00 PM
I am going to listen again to all Pletnev's Chopin this weekend.
Does anyone have any bootlegs? -- I have the Amsterdam Preludes and I am looking forward to revisiting them
I think the few Nocturnes he has recorded are gorgeous. I also have the Amsterdam Preludes and love them - courtesy of Sidoze. Where is he these days? Don't seem to have any contact with him since I left Facebook...
But anyway, very much enjoy Pletnev/Chopin!
Post by: Mandryka on December 10, 2009, 01:37:39 PM
Me to, bro. I am dosing every three hours with The Wellness Formula. (http://www.sourcenaturals.com/products/GP1345/)
More effective that The Wellness Formula I think . . .
Post by: bassio on December 10, 2009, 01:39:52 PM
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/archipelrecordsarpcd0422.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RSNY39S6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Recently, Archipel published some 1950's recordings by Stefan Askenase - a 2CD mix with various Chopin, the Kinderszenen and 2 Mozart concerti.
We don't hear much about this polish pianist. He was probably best Known as a prestigious teacher in Brussels (one of his students was Martha Argerich) but he performed and recorded quietly, mostly Chopin, in the 1950-70’s. The 2004 DG Original Masters set may help a new generation to (re)discover him.
This is the kind of pianist who could not have a glittering career at the concert stage. His way is not fast, dazzling nor brilliant. But when you take the time to listen there is, at least for me, a subtle, imaginative and very individual handling of the musical phrasing. Somehow I find myself enjoying his individual mixture of slow tempi, a very crystalline tone and a tasteful but very free use of rubato and dynamics. Old school sensibility perhaps but the musical artistry was certainly there.
Carlos
I have heard from his DG album, that was a long time ago ... however I find it severely lacking.
In fact, I could have really advised against getting the whole thing. :D
However, it is nice to find someone who can find something in his recordings.
I doubt though I will reget the thing again :D .. maybe will check some performances on youtube (if there are)
Post by: Lilas Pastia on January 03, 2010, 08:40:09 PM
I already have the broadcast concert of his Chopin PC 1 from the 2005 Warsaw Competition (thanks to one of our illustrious members ;D). It's fast become one of my favourite versions of the work, second - or third - only to Horszowski and Rubinstein. The newer version is substantially different. For a start, it's almost 2 minutes slower, most of the added space being found in the huge first movement . At 41:30 it's squarely in the 'moderate' camp (Argerich and some others zip through it in 36 minutes). Then there is the orchestra. I think that for this recording Blechacz went into much detail over how he envisioned the collaboration with the orchestra. IOW this is very much a soloist's Chopin PC 1. Orchestral textures are transparent and detailed (much wwind lines come through that I hadn't really noticed before), but it's also very soft-grained. Chopin's orchestra does have some sinew and even a touch of the military to it (first movement), but it's not apparent here. Chamber music Chopin? This is very much a poet's view of the work, and a seasoned musician's one to top things off. Looking at the cover picture may give an idea: Blechacz' virile, square-jawed face, topped with a mane of dark hair, but with a wan expression and a complexion so pale that the lad looks like he has leukemia :-\ .
Mind you, his interpretation is still way above the average pianist, and even above the seasoned chopinist. His attention to details of phrasing and dynamics is arresting. Time and again my ears perked up at the sheer beauty and refinement of his pianism. I never had the impression of prissiness or of mere note-spinning (there are many notes in this concerto, and the sign of an artist at work is to make the listener hear and factor in each of them). Altogether, he is less bold and commanding than Rubinstein(*), who also delivers breathtaking bits of poetic refinement, and he is not as sheerly sensual and elegant as Horszowski. Chopin's PC 1 is among the very first works I got to know (some 40 years ago, in Rubinstein's version). Blechacz' achievement is to make me go back to my favourite versions and conclude he's not wanting at all, even if I find him not as effortlessly commanding as the old wizards. Quite an achievement.
(*) I refer to Rubinstein's stereo version with the superb Stanislaw Skrowaczewski - the very best "accompanist" I've heard in this work.
Post by: George on February 04, 2010, 05:00:38 AM
http://sites.radiofrance.fr/francemusique/ev/fiche.php?eve_id=255000185
It's Alexei Volodine playing Chopin's Barcarolle and the complete Preludes live. (Streaming)
Post by: Holden on February 05, 2010, 03:39:10 AM
Not a recording, but this performance is getting discussion elsewhere, so I thought I'd post a link here:
http://sites.radiofrance.fr/francemusique/ev/fiche.php?eve_id=255000185
It's Alexei Volodine playing Chopin's Barcarolle and the complete Preludes live. (Streaming)
The Barcarolle was very ordinary indeed and while there were some nice moments in the Preludes this is very middle of the road Chopin. The best description I can come up with of the playing is monochromatic.
If it's getting rave reviews then the reviewers haven't heard the likes of: Cortot, Argerich, Fiorentino, Sokolov, Bolet, Arrau, Orozco, Pollini etc.
I'm happy to elaborate on a piece by piece basis but will I really have to?
Post by: George on February 05, 2010, 03:43:37 AM
The Barcarolle was very ordinary indeed and while there were some nice moments in the Preludes this is very middle of the road Chopin. The best description I can come up with of the playing is monochromatic.
Yeah, I didn't even listen to the whole thing. Just thought I'd present it here.
Post by: Drasko on February 06, 2010, 01:35:21 AM
http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/fl/12/567/1/
(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/36/7/5/759.jpg) (http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/36/7/5/760.jpg)
edit: I'm guessing for Cziffra could be Etudes, originally recorded for Philips.
Post by: Maciek on February 06, 2010, 03:26:35 AM
http://www.ivanmoravec.net/albums/al-4569102.html (http://www.ivanmoravec.net/albums/al-4569102.html)
And another possibility for Cziffra below.
Post by: Drasko on February 06, 2010, 03:35:31 AM
I'm guessing this for Moravec?
http://www.ivanmoravec.net/albums/al-4569102.html (http://www.ivanmoravec.net/albums/al-4569102.html)
No, I've been blind, there is tracklisting for each CD when you scroll down a bit, and when cross referenced with Moravec site it seems to be Prague 1969 sessions for Connoisseur Society (most of it, don't see 2nd Scherzo and 68/4 Mazurka). which would then mean that few of the mazurkas are first time on CD.
Cziffra is not complete etudes but mixed recital. He apparently recorded for Philips in early 60s much more than I was aware of.
Post by: Herman on February 06, 2010, 04:14:01 AM
If it's getting rave reviews then the reviewers haven't heard the likes of: Cortot, Argerich, Fiorentino, Sokolov, Bolet, Arrau, Orozco, Pollini etc.
A couple of days ago I listened / watched the Volodin in Nantes recital, too, and was severely unimpressed, particularly as it was presented by some people as the Second Coming. What struck me most was how uninteresting Volodin's rhythms are. Especially in preludes with an 'accompanying' left hand this was a big problem. No fluid motion whatsoever, just strict observation of the beat. I suspect it's not easy to perform the Opus 28 in its entirety (although I see no other way in this day and age), and Volodin seems primarily focused on making it to the end without mishaps, even though he seems amply gifted techically. On the other hand, the Baracarolle wasn't sensational either.
Post by: Holden on February 06, 2010, 02:47:07 PM
A couple of days ago I listened / watched the Volodin in Nantes recital, too, and was severely unimpressed, particularly as it was presented by some people as the Second Coming. What struck me most was how uninteresting Volodin's rhythms are. Especially in preludes with an 'accompanying' left hand this was a big problem. No fluid motion whatsoever, just strict observation of the beat. I suspect it's not easy to perform the Opus 28 in its entirety (although I see no other way in this day and age), and Volodin seems primarily focused on making it to the end without mishaps, even though he seems amply gifted techically. On the other hand, the Baracarolle wasn't sensational either.
The other thing that Volodin fails to do is bring out the tonal palette that Chopin created. This are especially important in the simple little Preludes such as numbers 2, 4, 6, 7, 15 and 20. Without that shading they are really quite ordinary and this is exactly how they sounded - ordinary and dull.
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 07, 2010, 06:30:35 AM
Post by: Mandryka on February 07, 2010, 08:13:50 AM
I have Samson François in the Ballades, Scherzos, Preludes, Mazurkas and Études. I find his tone a bit 'clear', but he finds a narrative tread in everything he plays. His Chopin is never blocky or rythmically dull.
I don't know a better modern reading of the Mazurkas.
I don't count the first Rubinstein set as modern. I don't like the later Rubinstein recordings. Beautiful pianism but, for me, too aloof.
And although Luisada and Zilberstein are very good, I prefer a sort of lightness which I hear in Francois.
But, as I said, Luisada and Zilberstein are pretty good really.
I very much like Michelangeli in this -- but he doesn't do many.
I have just bought Koroliov's CD. I have listened to it a couple of times and I find it quite challenging actually. My initial reaction is that there's a bit too much of the folk-dance about some of the performances for my taste. But he may welll grow on me.
I'm into those Mazurkas big time.
Post by: George on February 07, 2010, 08:31:18 AM
I don't know a better modern reading of the Mazurkas.
How do you like the rest of Samson's EMI Chopin set? I have resisted buying it for quite awhile.
Post by: Mandryka on February 07, 2010, 09:11:26 AM
How do you like the rest of Samson's EMI Chopin set? I have resisted buying it for quite awhile.
Generally, I like his Chopin for a sort of free spirit feeling. there's nothing buttoned -up about Samson Francois. And he's a happy soul -- this is totally insouciant music making.
I like the Waltzes very much. Next to Kocsis and Cortot it's my favourite big Waltz set. Again it's light and clean and lively.
He doesn't have the depth of Kocsis -- but he's not at all a salonard. And his speeds are more conventional than Kocsis. And he is certainly much more charming than Kocsis, and much much much more charming than Katsaris (who also plays the waltzes interestingly.)
And he And he's nowhere near as good as Cortot or Rosenthal or Sofronitsky in the Waltzes. No one is or ever will be.
In terms of mood, he's the exact polar opposite of those Waltzes Richter plays on that Salzburg recital.
I like most of the nocturnes too. For the same reasons. And he's without the cloying sentimentality you get with
Francois's nocturnes are wide awake and lively. You don't go into Moravec's half awake world . They are played energetically without being at all driven. And the overall feeling is happy -- this is a fun, joyful interpretation.
Some of the nocturnes aren't recorded as well as the waltzes or mazurkas. For me it's never a problem. The piano tone is quite hard, and the recording is quite dry. But for me it's never been a problem: it's not like Fiorentino's Ravel, for example.
Opus 62/1 -- my favourite nocturne. Samson Francois -- one of my favourite performers of it.
I will have to listen again to the Etudes and Preludes and Sonatas before I comment. I haven't heard the concertos.
(I can't imagine the Preludes, in fact. I must try to hear them tonight.)
I would be very surprised if you regretted having the set. But I believe that a big box of his complete recordings will be launched from EMI France this Autumn (there has been a discussion about him recently on RMCR and this came up.)
Post by: George on February 07, 2010, 01:29:27 PM
Post by: Mandryka on February 07, 2010, 01:33:03 PM
I was not impressed. The Preludes seemed to lack the necessary gravitas, and I didn't notice any interesting musical ideas to compensate.
The second sonata is taken at breakneck speed. That's quite promising in the first movement, which is really exciting. But somehow it all seems pretty vapid in the end. He never seems to find the serenity that Pletnev and Michelangeli find. The tone is hard (problematically for the first time for me) and relatively monochromatic.
I won't listen again unless someone posts to say I have missed something.
I'll try and hear the third sonata and the etudes tomorrow.
It maybe worth checking the dates of the recordings. I think Francois took to the bottle and the pipe towards the end of his life -- with resulting poor performances. Maybe the Preludes and sonatas are from this period.
Post by: George on February 16, 2010, 08:52:48 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lDLeU9djL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/Argerich-Plays-Chopin-Martha/dp/B002KL3G1C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1266338760&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Argerich-Plays-Chopin-Martha/dp/B002KL3G1C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1266338760&sr=1-1)
Post by: George on February 16, 2010, 12:53:39 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lDLeU9djL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Here's a review (http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=6990) of that CD.
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2010, 06:07:56 PM
Today DG released a CD that those rascals conveniently left out of the solo box that was released last year. It's from the very beginning of her career and is all Chopin. Samples sound great!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lDLeU9djL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/Argerich-Plays-Chopin-Martha/dp/B002KL3G1C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1266338760&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Argerich-Plays-Chopin-Martha/dp/B002KL3G1C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1266338760&sr=1-1)
George, any plan to buy this one?
Post by: George on February 16, 2010, 06:49:17 PM
George, any plan to buy this one?
Yes, the samples sound excellent.
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2010, 06:53:15 PM
Yes, the samples sound excellent.
I find it hard to believe this recording has never been released before ...
Post by: George on February 16, 2010, 07:49:55 PM
I find it hard to believe this recording has never been released before ...
I'm pissed that it wasn't included in the solo DG box that was released last year. >:(
Post by: Lilas Pastia on February 16, 2010, 08:16:46 PM
Post by: Drasko on February 17, 2010, 01:39:32 AM
Samson François in the 24 Études. To my ears this sounds better (sonically) than some of his other recordings. Fanciful and dramatic, more interesting than most.
Haven't heard the Etudes but fanciful and dramatic sounds like apt description of Francois' Chopin. He is one of rare pianists who manages to convey spur of the moment feeling in studio recordings, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but it's almost always more interesting than most. Have you heard his waltzes, op.70/3 is one of the most fanciful Chopin recordings I heard, and I'm sure many hate it. Don't know if it has been already mentioned but EMI France should be coming out with set of his complete recordings, 30 something CDs I'm told, later this year.
Post by: Coopmv on February 17, 2010, 08:03:38 PM
I'm pissed that it wasn't included in the solo DG box that was released last year. >:(
Yeah, the same set we both bought ... :(
Post by: Scarpia on February 18, 2010, 08:33:32 AM
EMI France should be coming out with set of his complete recordings, 30 something CDs I'm told, later this year.
Really? They just released a box with his complete Chopin recordings (10 CDs) are they doing a second box with all EMI recordings? (I have a copy of the old "collectors edition" of the Francois/Chopin collection, but it would be nice to have the rest of it as well.)
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/4553572.jpg)
Post by: George on February 18, 2010, 10:00:30 AM
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/4553572.jpg)
I just listened to his Ballades 1 and 2 at lunch for the first time. At first, I thought it sounded a bit crude, a bit rushed, but as I continued to listen, I liked it a lot more. I love his intensity.
Post by: Scarpia on February 18, 2010, 10:03:45 AM
I just listened to his Ballades 1 and 2 at lunch for the first time. At first, I thought it sounded a bit crude, a bit rushed, but as I continued to listen, I liked it a lot more. I love his intensity.
Those are some of the oldest recordings in the set and the technical quality of the recordings is an obstacle for me. The Sonatas are more recent stereo recordings and have impressive intensity.
Post by: Mandryka on February 18, 2010, 11:15:51 AM
Those are some of the oldest recordings in the set and the technical quality of the recordings is an obstacle for me. The Sonatas are more recent stereo recordings and have impressive intensity.
What do you think of his way with the Second Sonata?
To me, it lacked any sort of repose -- and I felt that was a real shortcoming.
But maybe I have been brainwashed by Michelangeli and by Cortot and by Pletnev in this. Maybe you don't need to ever really relax in that sonata. I heard Rachmaninoff again recently, and his reading seemed pretty dramatic and energetic all the way through.
So maybe I should open my mind a bit. I don't know.
Post by: Scarpia on February 18, 2010, 11:34:27 AM
What do you think of his way with the Second Sonata?
To me, it lacked any sort of repose -- and I felt that was a real shortcoming.
I am hard pressed to imagine where one would be reposing in that Sonata.
Post by: Drasko on February 18, 2010, 11:51:23 AM
Really? They just released a box with his complete Chopin recordings (10 CDs) are they doing a second box with all EMI recordings?
That's what I heard, probably one of those boxes like Nat, Ciccolini, Meyer and Cziffra, toward end of the year.
Post by: Mandryka on February 18, 2010, 01:53:44 PM
I am hard pressed to imagine where one would be reposing in that Sonata.
Well one place I have in mind is in the second subject of the Funeral March.
Maybe repose isn't the word -- relax maybe.
Listen to Michelangeli, starting at about 2:34 of this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O0TA2G3tk8
And contrast Francois (at about 2:19), who remains kind of driven passim I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VkMClzQ5IM&feature=related
Pletnev is another good reposer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=692HE3UDee0&feature=related
Cortot is more like Francois, but still, more relax/repose/relief
(at about 2:18 and especially at 2:33 or thereabouts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWa1bEobmxM
Rachmaninov doesn't chill at all. But he's so good he can do what he wants.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6mIk90ORmw&feature=related
Of course -- I bet you hear it all very differently :)
There are some other places as well -- in the first movement.
Post by: Herman on February 19, 2010, 01:25:18 AM
I haven't heard those François recordings in a long time; I don't think I have any anymore. I used to think they were terrible (I like his Debussy and Ravel, which I have had from the late seventies), and I have the feeling this whole François craze here is just a fatigue symptom. If you want to keep making new Chopin interp discoveries, at some point you wind up with guys like Samson 'Steel Fingers' François.
Years ago I would have gotten this EMI box and checked it out one more time, but I won't. Perhaps it's my loss, but I haven't been losing any sleep over it.
Post by: Mandryka on February 19, 2010, 02:46:32 AM
I have the feeling this whole François craze here is just a fatigue symptom. If you want to keep making new Chopin interp discoveries, at some point you wind up with guys like Samson 'Steel Fingers' François.
Years ago I would have gotten this EMI box and checked it out one more time, but I won't. Perhaps it's my loss, but I haven't been losing any sleep over it.
I strongly disagree. You should start losing sleep.
The recordings are a mixed bunch -- but I will defend the Mazurkas against all attackers. And the Waltzes and Nocturnes.
What do you think of this? The late Mazurkas are particularly fine I think -- but they are not on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf0t-Usp5cc
I think he smoked and drank to much in later life -- hence the deterioration.
IMO repose is a better word than relax. You can repose and retain intensity. And I think a certain degree of repose is a necessity.
So what do you think of the Rachmaninov performance?
Post by: Herman on February 19, 2010, 10:32:12 AM
I think he smoked and drank to much in later life -- hence the deterioration.
The younger you die, the sooner you are "later in life".
I purchased my first François album in a store run by a man who was quite eloquent about his playing, he'd seen him perform many times. Somehow his store assistant was an attractive middle-aged woman who'd worked for an Amsterdam impressario and had escorted François from the plane to the hotel and to the concert hall many times. Need I say more...
Post by: Scarpia on February 20, 2010, 12:32:43 PM
Post by: George on February 20, 2010, 02:30:30 PM
Just listened to Francois' recordings of a few of the Polonaises.
Haven't heard them yet, but I heard his Ballades, Scherzi, Waltzes and Impromptus this week. I very much enjoyed his Chopin overall. Not a first pick, but a nice alternate perspective.
Post by: George on February 20, 2010, 08:57:14 PM
Ballade 1
It's herky-jerky and lacks that flow and grace I usually like in my Chopin. This isn't Prokofiev, Martha! She plays the fast parts well, though.
Etude in C Sharp Minor Op. 10/4
Wow! This performance is wonderful! Her technical facility and intensity is put to good use here. One of the best performances I have ever heard of this one!
Mazurka in C Sharp Minor Op. 41/4
Like the first Ballade, this one does not come off very well. It sounds under-rehearsed and though the quieter moments are nice, the louder ones come off like Horowitz at his worst. This isn't a Scherzo, it's a Mazurka, for goodness sakes.
Mazurka in e minor Op. 41/1
The sadness is conveyed well, but again, she takes to banging and ruins the louder passages. :-\
Mazurka in C Major
Again, she sounds under-rehearsed and not refined enough. Not terrible, just not special.
Mazurka in f minor
Nice mystery at the start, but again nothing that special here.
Mazurka in D Major
Louder and faster than I like this one. Bang! Bang! Bang! quiet for awhile then BANG! BANG!
Nocturne in F Major
Like the prior works, it sounds unfinished, like she really doesn't have a feel for the music.
Nocturne in E Flat Major
Better here, with a nice flow missing from most of the other performances, but still nothing to write home about. She's got the coldest Nocturnes I have ever heard.
Mazurkas Op. 59
No. 1 was played well, with a nice gentle tone. No. 2 was also played well, No. 3 is again too loud and too fast for me.
Piano Sonata 3
Decent here, but not really better than many others that I have heard. Like her Nocturnes it's a cold Chopin, technically impressive, yes, but Chopin needs more than that. Much of this sounded rushed to me. Not enough depth either, it's like she's just skimming the surface of the music in the faster movements. The Largo and the finale were better, but still weren't that great.
Post by: George on February 24, 2010, 02:37:03 PM
Ready to laugh and enjoy some great pianism?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYY47zdi8So
(trust me, this is great!)
Post by: Mandryka on February 25, 2010, 10:28:44 AM
Samson François in the 24 Études. To my ears this sounds better (sonically) than some of his other recordings. Fanciful and dramatic, more interesting than most.
I have spent quite a lot of time listening to his Op 10s these past few days. You may well be right, Barak. Probably, they are more interesting than most. But that may not be saying very much.
I think they are a mixed bag actually. Mostly he doesn’t seem to realise much of the music in there.
But there are some exceptions. I thought 10/9 was especially good – and maybe also 10/7. 10/11 and 10/12 too – that’s a score of 4 out of 12.
Part of the problem is that Cortot’s 1933 record sets the standard for expression, colour warmth etc very high – most of the time I don’t think François even comes close.
Of course, there are excellent performances which try to shift the point of reference. Cziffra doesn’t even try to compete with Cortot for expression, colour and warmth – his recording is valuable because he has other, new things to say – Cziffra shows us Chopin as blood brother of Liszt; as experimenter and maverick.
But I don’t think that François has anything so interesting to say in this music.
I’ll try to listen again to Op 25 later this week.
Post by: George on March 01, 2010, 11:09:58 AM
A Century of Romantic Chopin
54001-2 (4 CDs for the price of 3)
A Century of Romantic Chopin is a four CD-compilation commemorating the Chopin bicentennial year. The set will include some 65 pianists, going back to Francis Planté and Vladimir de Pachmann who were born when Chopin was still alive. Other pianists in the set include Josef Hofmann, Sergei Rachmaninoff, Ferruccio Busoni, Moritz Rosenthal, Ignace Jan Paderewski, Ignaz Friedman, Alfred Cortot, Jan Smeterlin, Rosita Renard, Claudio Arrau, Guiomar Novaes, Benno Moiseiwitsch, Solomon, Arthur Rubinstein, Emil Gilels, Earl Wild, Jorge Bolet, and others. All of Chopin’s etudes will be represented, as well as a selection of preludes, mazurkas, waltzes, nocturnes, ballades, and scherzi, each performance conveying a personal approach to the music. Some of the recordings will already be familiar to pianophiles because of their legendary status, while many others will be delightful surprises, as they are taken from concert performances and out-of-print recordings.
Post by: George on March 17, 2010, 03:36:36 AM
The problem is that no pianist has really come forward to take their place. We've been in a state of hiatus for a number of years now with no clear candidate emerging.
Hi Holden,
I agree with your statement above, with three exceptions: Pogorelich (though he hasn't recorded any Chopin as of late), Wasowski (I love his Nocturnes and his Mazurkas) and Gekic (I love everything this guy does and his Chopin is no exception.)
Since I am off topic, I moved my answer to this thread.
Post by: Clever Hans on March 17, 2010, 08:02:22 AM
Hi Holden,
I agree with your statement above, with three exceptions: Pogorelich (though he hasn't recorded any Chopin as of late), Wasowski (I love his Nocturnes and his Mazurkas) and Gekic (I love everything this guy does and his Chopin is no exception.)
Since I am off topic, I moved my answer to this thread.
Tharaud?
Post by: George on March 17, 2010, 10:48:53 AM
Tharaud?
Not IMO. I didn't like his preludes at all.
Post by: Clever Hans on March 17, 2010, 10:55:08 AM
Not IMO. I didn't like his preludes at all.
His waltzes are better. At least he tries to be interesting
Post by: George on March 17, 2010, 11:37:40 AM
His waltzes are better. At least he tries to be interesting
Interesting is good, I agree. Like any interpretation though, it either connects or it doesn't. I know others enjoy Tharaud's Chopin, which is a good thing.
I've been slowly getting to know the old masters myself - Rosenthal, Pachmann, Bolet, Fiorentino, Godowsky, Koczalski, Saperton (etudes) and Hofmann.
Post by: Herman on March 17, 2010, 01:05:13 PM
His waltzes are better. At least he tries to be interesting
Agreed. I got Tharaud's Waltzes cd recently (it's five years old) and I like it a lot.
I was at a live performance of the Preludes and wasn't quite convinced.
Post by: Clever Hans on March 18, 2010, 10:43:31 AM
Interesting is good, I agree. Like any interpretation though, it either connects or it doesn't. I know others enjoy Tharaud's Chopin, which is a good thing.
I've been slowly getting to know the old masters myself - Rosenthal, Pachmann, Bolet, Fiorentino, Godowsky, Koczalski, Saperton (etudes) and Hofmann.
Don't forget Friedman. Get his Mazurkas on Naxos. The transfers are great. I'm a big Rosenthal fan. In his prime--around the turn of the century--he was a supervirtuoso.
That said, I think Tharaud has the right idea. Of anyone around, he plays the most like Cortot, and with a minimum of aristocratic sauce (Rubinstein, etc).
Post by: Scarpia on March 18, 2010, 10:48:33 AM
Post by: kishnevi on March 18, 2010, 11:03:38 AM
What of Vasary's set of recordings on DG, from the 60's I think and available on a pair of those "trio" releases. I have some Vasary recordings, Debussy, which I enjoy. Is his Chopin noteworthy?
I have the "Trio": Nocturnes, Waltzes, Ballades, Scherzi. I bought it to fill out my Chopin library in a budget friendly way, back in the days when I was insane enough to believe one needed only one recording of a work...
To be perfectly honest, I haven't listened to any of it in a good long time: the nocturnes, from what I remember, seemed fairly bland, the ballades good, and the waltzes very good.
I have enough other Chopin recordings that I've never felt impelled to dig it from the bottom of the stack where I saw it last. I suppose he is due for a rehearing...
Post by: George on March 18, 2010, 11:27:36 AM
Don't forget Friedman. Get his Mazurkas on Naxos. The transfers are great.
Yeah, I have all 5 volumes of that series. His Moonlight is superb!
Post by: George on March 18, 2010, 11:39:33 AM
What of Vasary's set of recordings on DG, from the 60's I think and available on a pair of those "trio" releases. I have some Vasary recordings, Debussy, which I enjoy. Is his Chopin noteworthy?
Not IMO.
If you are after an inexpensive Chopin set, I suggest the budget Rubinstein box on RCA or the somewhat more expensive set by Ashkenazy on Decca.
Clever Hans - I don't know how I left out Cortot. I LOVE his Chopin. :)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on March 18, 2010, 09:44:28 PM
Tharaud?
Yes, I'll join some of the others in praising Tharaud's Waltzes.
In fact, for me there's much to be said for post-78 era Chopin playing on disc:
• In the second and third sonatas Katchen (Decca) is divine - angular yet cohesive.
• Gavrilov (EMI) crackles in both sets of Etudes yet never sounds exploitive.
• Cherkassky enlightens every nook of Chopin's music.
• Argerich can be spotty (her DG Preludes are pretty good) but her third Scherzo on DG is spectacular.
• Three words: Moravec, Moravec, Moravec.
• And there's always Richter to consider.
• I've just started listening to Freire's recital (Decca) with the second sonata and Op. 10 Etudes and allowing for the more introspective vs. flashy approach I find it refreshing. So far.
Post by: Mandryka on March 18, 2010, 11:18:27 PM
Don't forget Friedman. Get his Mazurkas on Naxos.
I hate them. He plays them like they are peasant dances.
In fact, for me there's much to be said for post-78 era Chopin playing on disc:
You forgot four of the best: Pletnev and Virsladze and Pollini and Weissenberg.
Not IMO.
If you are after an inexpensive Chopin set, I suggest the budget Rubinstein box on RCA
Not recommended by me -- he's lost the magic touch by then I think.
For a cheap set, go for Samson Francois or Alexis Weissenberg.
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on March 19, 2010, 09:18:42 AM
You forgot four of the best: Pletnev and Virsladze and Pollini and Weissenberg.
I've never really cared for Pollini's Chopin - lacks some of the angularity I prefer.
The other three I haven't heard yet in Chopin but will definitely do some investigating. Thanks. :)
Post by: Scarpia on March 19, 2010, 09:30:08 AM
If you are after an inexpensive Chopin set, I suggest the budget Rubinstein box on RCA or the somewhat more expensive set by Ashkenazy on Decca.
Expense is not the motivation, I've lot's of Chopin on the shelves (including most of the Ashkenazy). Just wondering if it is interesting. Cursory listening to excerpts seems to confirm you characterization.
Post by: George on March 19, 2010, 10:51:51 AM
I've never really cared for Pollini's Chopin -
Me neither. Except for his Etudes, which are impressive IMO.
I still need to hear his earlier EMI Chopin CD, as I have heard that it's good.
Post by: DarkAngel on March 19, 2010, 11:39:50 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51z7jsxZExL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41bPqGQhDaL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Also check the dirt cheap Rachmaninov set which has Kocsis performances of piano concertos 1,2,3,4
Post by: Scarpia on March 19, 2010, 12:07:55 PM
Me neither. Except for his Etudes, which are impressive IMO.
I still need to hear his earlier EMI Chopin CD, as I have heard that it's good.
In my opinion, Pollini has improved with age, his early recordings strike me as technically impeccable but lacking in style or expression, while in his later recordings he has mellowed a lot. I actually have Pollini's Etude disc, but I don't think I have listened to it, or any other recording of the Etudes, in 20 years or more.
Post by: Clever Hans on March 19, 2010, 12:36:26 PM
I hate them. He plays them like they are peasant dances.
Not recommended by me -- he's lost the magic touch by then I think.
Who do you like in the Mazurkas, then? Chopin himself played them with extremely bent time. Have you heard Kapell?
In any case, I agree with the veto on Rubinstein. Personally, I think he is overrated and can't think of a single set of works in which he is better than anyone else. Except maybe the polonaises, where there are better individual interpretations.
Despite the fact that, as some people frame it, he championed a salon composer,
to put it politely, he mellowed as he aged and his interpretations became more and more uniform and urbane.
To put it strongly, he perfected a more commercial sound for his vast audience--i.e. he sold out.
I just think, even in his early recordings, he hides a lot of the edge and intensity of Chopin, making the music sound too genial and unambiguous. Sofronitsky is a great antidote to this.
Although, if one really wanted to hear Rubinstein at his best, I would point to the early Mazurkas and the middle mono Waltzes (for which I still prefer Cortot, Hofmann, Rosenthal, Sofronitsky, and Lipatti).
Post by: Mandryka on March 19, 2010, 12:56:02 PM
Who do you like in the Mazurkas, then? Chopin himself played them with extremely bent time. Have you heard Kapell?
No -- I haven't heard Kapell.
Mazurkas = First Rubinsten; François; Horszowsky; Sofronitsky; Jonas; Michelangeli; Horowitz (some); Malcuzynski (some); Weissenberg; Luisada.
Mazurkas ≠ Fou Ts’Ong ; Friedman; Rubinstein’s stereo; Zilberstein; Pogorelich.
Jury’s out on Rubinstein’s 50s and Wasowsky and Koroliov (but suspect he's for the reject list soon); Cherkassky, Wirsaladze; Moravec.
Someone mentioned Zoltan Koscics set of Chopin Waltzes earlier
Yes -- it's nice the way he plays them so fast. Very exciting.
The most interesting modern Waltz surveys I have heard are from Kocsis and Katsaris. And François (but maybe he's not modern.)
Katsaris really makes the music his own -- when I listen I am often surprised by his nuances, by melodies which he brings out which I hadn't noticed before. Speeds are inclined to be slow.
Has anyone here heard any other Chopin from him? (I haven't)
Post by: Scarpia on March 19, 2010, 01:09:14 PM
Katsaris really makes the music his own -- when I listen I am often surprised by his nuances, by melodies which he brings out which I hadn't noticed before. Speeds are inclined to be slow.
Has anyone here heard any other Chopin from him? (I haven't)
(http://www.grandprix.chopin.pl/plyty/cd2d.jpg)
I had this once, no more. (It is currently available on Apex.)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on March 19, 2010, 08:32:50 PM
Me neither. Except for his Etudes, which are impressive IMO.
Dang, I just recently let go of his Etudes...oh well, too late for another go-round... :(
Post by: George on March 19, 2010, 08:45:28 PM
Dang, I just recently let go of his Etudes...oh well, too late for another go-round... :(
No matter, it's mostly his technical prowess that is impressive. Like here, where he's crystal clear and clean - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwHgeDPhkts
Check out Ashkenazy for a comparison - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpZr_cbYbXo
After hearing Ashy (who is regarded by many as being one of the very best in the Chopin etudes, as I am sure you know) one hears how Pollini has this in the palm of his hand.
Post by: Herman on March 20, 2010, 12:54:36 AM
After hearing Ashy (who is regarded by many as being one of the very best in the Chopin etudes, as I am sure you know) one hears how Pollini has this in the palm of his hand.
The only problem with Pollini's DG Etudes and Preludes is there is no music there.
As I'm writing this the 10/1 link you posted is playing, and it is completely bereft of any nuance. This piece can be played in such a way that it becomes a beautiful opening of a enchanting narrative. Pollini's just playing a ton of notes, with perfect control, indeed, but that's just typing.
Post by: George on March 20, 2010, 03:59:25 AM
The only problem with Pollini's DG Etudes and Preludes is there is no music there.
That's why I began the post you quoted with this:
No matter, it's mostly his technical prowess that is impressive.
Any reason you chose to edit that statement from the post you quoted of mine?
Post by: Herman on March 20, 2010, 12:39:12 PM
Post by: George on March 20, 2010, 12:52:38 PM
a habit of keeping the quotes brief.
I know what you're saying, but my post was only three lines long. Editing it, in this case, misrepresented my point.
Post by: Renfield on March 20, 2010, 01:11:10 PM
I know what you're saying, but my post was only three lines long. Editing it, in this case, misrepresented my point.
In all fairness, he never said he explicitly disagreed with you, or interpreted your comment to begin with. :)
(So as to represent your point in any way.)
Post by: George on March 20, 2010, 01:21:09 PM
In all fairness, he never said he explicitly disagreed with you, or interpreted your comment to begin with. :)
That's partly my point. It appears that he does disagree, based on the fact that he only quoted part of my post.
Post by: Renfield on March 20, 2010, 01:26:48 PM
It appears that he does disagree, based on the fact that he only quoted part of my post.
You lost me, here.
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on March 20, 2010, 06:31:52 PM
You lost me, here.
Well, I certainly see George's point but perhaps nothing derisive was intended by lopping off part of his post. Just a mousing/snipping error, maybe... :)
Post by: kishnevi on March 20, 2010, 07:22:04 PM
but perhaps nothing derisive was intended by lopping off part of his post.
Agreed.
I tend to snip off anything not related to the point I'm directly addressing, which means that generally I'm agreeing with it (or at least, don't think it necessary to state any disagreement) or that I think it does not need to be expanded upon: I'll just keep what is necessary for the reader to understand what I'm talking about.
(edited your brief reply to give an example)
Post by: Holden on March 20, 2010, 07:30:17 PM
The only problem with Pollini's DG Etudes and Preludes is there is no music there.
As I'm writing this the 10/1 link you posted is playing, and it is completely bereft of any nuance. This piece can be played in such a way that it becomes a beautiful opening of a enchanting narrative. Pollini's just playing a ton of notes, with perfect control, indeed, but that's just typing.
I agree. As an example of pure bravura it is stunning but Gavrilov is even more impressive.
But if you want nuance in Op 10/1 combined with stunning technique it's hard to go past Anievas.
Post by: Mandryka on March 20, 2010, 10:51:43 PM
No matter, it's mostly his technical prowess that is impressive. Like here, where he's crystal clear and clean - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwHgeDPhkts
Check out Ashkenazy for a comparison - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpZr_cbYbXo
After hearing Ashy (who is regarded by many as being one of the very best in the Chopin etudes, as I am sure you know) one hears how Pollini has this in the palm of his hand.
Ashkenazy sounds to me as though he has an anger management problem -- but I can see there are nice things in it.
For nuance, Richter is outstanding. Just listen to that sadness which pervades the interpretation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSKTG3ptpyU
And Cziffra plays it relatively monochromatic and uncharismatic. But this isn't aggressive and he makes it sound like real exciting music -- adventurous like a Liszt TE.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTwRyYIPmj4
Post by: Herman on March 21, 2010, 01:03:13 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtYUaHm1fak
it's not just that the interpretation strikes me as overly fussy, I don't get the video either, with CK making faces at the camera and casting glances towards the audience, and weird camera pans. It's almost as if this is some kind of vanity video, with the audience pasted in, later.
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 21, 2010, 02:27:53 AM
Ashkenazy sounds to me as though he has an anger management problem -- but I can see there are nice things in it.
For nuance, Richter is outstanding. Just listen to that sadness which pervades the interpretation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSKTG3ptpyU
And Cziffra plays it relatively monochromatic and uncharismatic. But this isn't aggressive and he makes it sound like real exciting music -- adventurous like a Liszt TE.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTwRyYIPmj4
It's funny how we all hear different stuff in the same peformances. If I had to order those 4 performances in order of preference, I'd go:
1. Pollini
2. Ashkenazy
3. Richter
4. Cziffra
I had never heard any of these interpretations before so no bias in that sense. Pollini shaped the line better. I also felt it was smoothest on the top line. And I also felt like I was getting the nuances of the music more. The Ashkenazy and Richter were similar to my ears (wish the Richter had been in better sound, which may have hurt it). If one is more interested in a more 'violent' version, then I could understand preferring one of the others.
I curently own two versions: Perahia and Ashkenazy. I prefer the Perahia (on Sony) hands down between them. Of course, once I had listened to all these versions, I had to go listen to Godowsky's Study on Chopin's Etudes (on which he has two studies for this one etude).
Post by: George on March 21, 2010, 05:00:59 AM
I agree. As an example of pure bravura it is stunning but Gavrilov is even more impressive.
I'll have to listen to Gavrilov (and Anievas) again. To me, this prelude is mostly bravura, so I prefer an interpretation along those lines.
Post by: Coopmv on March 21, 2010, 05:05:14 AM
I'll have to listen to Gavrilov (and Anievas) again. To me, this prelude is mostly bravura, so I prefer an interpretation along those lines.
I am tempted to give Vlado Perlemuter a try, though I know you are not too crazy about his Chopin playing ...
Post by: George on March 21, 2010, 05:08:23 AM
I am tempted to give Vlado Perlemuter a try, though I know you are not too crazy about his Chopin playing ...
I have never heard his Chopin.
Post by: George on March 21, 2010, 05:15:47 AM
I agree. As an example of pure bravura it is stunning but Gavrilov is even more impressive.
I agree. Side by side, it's no contest. Gavrilov sounds big, bold and confident. And more musical than Pollini. He makes this prelude sound like a Rachmaninoff prelude.
Quote
But if you want nuance in Op 10/1 combined with stunning technique it's hard to go past Anievas.
I just listened to him for the second time and I can't say I like it. It's weird because I love his Rachmaninoff preludes, so I assumed that I'd love his Chopin.
Post by: zamyrabyrd on March 21, 2010, 10:31:31 AM
I don't know a better modern reading of the Mazurkas...
I'm into those Mazurkas big time.
Yes, indeed, Samson François is the man for the Mazurkas! My recording has the Sonatas 2&3 as well, what a bargain!!! Rachmaninoff used to play Chopin's second sonata with great success.
For those who may be jaded by Chopin Waltzes, Geza Anda's interpretation (in the first set of the Great Pianists of the 20th century) is quite a revelation. He gets more music from them that quite a few often miss.
Also, I liked very much Askenazy's recording of the Polonaises that includes quite a few early compositions and later ones that don't appear in most anthologies.
ZB (right now breaking my head & fingers over the 2nd Impromptu...found this in the meantime, the eccentric, but lovable Vladimir de Pachmann:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3WuBOtCsYs )
Post by: zamyrabyrd on March 21, 2010, 10:40:03 AM
Speaking of Katsaris, there is this video of him playing the 3d sonata.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtYUaHm1fak
it's not just that the interpretation strikes me as overly fussy, I don't get the video either, with CK making faces at the camera and casting glances towards the audience, and weird camera pans. It's almost as if this is some kind of vanity video, with the audience pasted in, later.
Ditto, completely agree. A friend of mine a while ago suggested I see this "fantastic pianist". After viewing the above, I was definitely turned off. I searched out the Lipatti recording just to clean out my ears.
ZB
Post by: Mandryka on March 21, 2010, 10:53:32 AM
Ditto, completely agree. A friend of mine a while ago suggested I see this "fantastic pianist". After viewing the above, I was definitely turned off. I searched out the Lipatti recording just to clean out my ears.
ZB
Completely disagree.
I rather like the sonata performance. Whenever he does something personal it always sounds musical and intelligent.
I don't much care for the Lipatti recording of it. If I wanted to hear this sonata I would probably go for Gilels. Or Pletnev.
Post by: Herman on March 21, 2010, 12:23:54 PM
To me the B minor is the ultimate heroic sonata, about beauty and suffering, and to see Katsaris almost winking at the camera or the audience in the finale - hey I can do this and have fun too! - is so wrong.
Perhaps if I just heard the audio it would be different.
Post by: Drasko on March 21, 2010, 01:01:20 PM
Speaking of Katsaris, there is this video of him playing the 3d sonata.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtYUaHm1fak
it's not just that the interpretation strikes me as overly fussy, I don't get the video either, with CK making faces at the camera and casting glances towards the audience, and weird camera pans. It's almost as if this is some kind of vanity video, with the audience pasted in, later.
Don't know if it is pasted but do know that he does all those antics in perfectly normal live performance as well. Glancing and smiling at the audience, raising and waving his hands, looking at the ceiling, conducting something with one hand while playing with the other ...
But his playing is as bizarre (in Chopin at least). I listened to some Scherzi on radio and he played them in such exaggerated contrapuntal manner that I couldn't tell anymore what is melody, what is accompaniment and with all voices given same importance sounded like utter mess.
Now, making some unexpected accent here or there, bringing some details to foreground over which everybody else glosses over or giving more prominence to accompaniment can result in truly memorable performances, even revelatory: Sofronitsky's Schubert or Natan Brand's Kreisleriana or Kemal Gekic's Chopin Etudes, but Katsaris is going into extremes and result is mostly grotesque in my opinion.
Post by: Bulldog on March 21, 2010, 01:14:03 PM
Post by: Holden on March 21, 2010, 01:30:48 PM
I agree. Side by side, it's no contest. Gavrilov sounds big, bold and confident. And more musical than Pollini. He makes this prelude sound like a Rachmaninoff prelude.
I just listened to him for the second time and I can't say I like it. It's weird because I love his Rachmaninoff preludes, so I assumed that I'd love his Chopin.
now I've never heard his Rachmaninov - can you upload samples of Op 23/5 and op 32/10 for me so I can listen? After Richter it's very hard to listen to someone else play Rachmaninov.
Post by: George on March 21, 2010, 01:37:15 PM
I've always found Katsaris a very interesting and unique pianist. I have a Sony disc of him playing the Op. 28 Preludes that's out of this world - a must have as far as I'm concerned.
I just grabbed the last reasonably priced copy from amazon! Thanks for the tip! :)
Post by: George on March 21, 2010, 01:51:53 PM
now I've never heard his Rachmaninov - can you upload samples of Op 23/5 and op 32/10 for me so I can listen? After Richter it's very hard to listen to someone else play Rachmaninov.
Sure!
Opus 23/5 (http://queencdmastering.wikispaces.com/file/detail/Op.23+No.5.mp3)
Opus 32/10 (http://queencdmastering.wikispaces.com/file/detail/Op.32+No.10.mp3)
after clicking on the link, just click the triangle at the bottom left to listen. Or right click on the link and choose save as to download the prelude.
Post by: Herman on March 21, 2010, 02:04:25 PM
I've always found Katsaris a very interesting and unique pianist. I have a Sony disc of him playing the Op. 28 Preludes that's out of this world - a must have as far as I'm concerned.
If this is not a parody I don't get it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYY47zdi8So&feature=related
Post by: Scarpia on March 21, 2010, 02:08:57 PM
If this is not a parody I don't get it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYY47zdi8So&feature=related
He is an odd, quirky guy. I don't see how that excludes him being a talented pianist.
Post by: Herman on March 21, 2010, 07:02:54 PM
He is an odd, quirky guy. I don't see how that excludes him being a talented pianist.
since no one said he had no talent, that's not a question you need to ponder.
The question is more: is this the kind of Chopin playing you're looking for?
This is the kind of performing that (to me) is only about talent. That's ok when you're sicteen, but not when you're sixty.
Post by: kishnevi on March 21, 2010, 07:24:18 PM
I agree. Side by side, it's no contest. Gavrilov sounds big, bold and confident. And more musical than Pollini. He makes this prelude sound like a Rachmaninoff prelude.
That's a bit confusing. Do you think Gavrilov or Pollini "makes it sound like a Rachmaninoff prelude"?
To me, I'd rather not have a pianist make a Chopin prelude come out like a Rachmaninoff prelude. I want to hear Chopin. If I wanted to hear a Rachmaninoff prelude, I'd put on Rachmaninoff preludes. And vice versa, of course. (To make it clear, I'm not being negative about R., only being negative about playing music by other composers as if it was music by R.)
Post by: George on March 21, 2010, 07:28:39 PM
That's a bit confusing. Do you think Gavrilov or Pollini "makes it sound like a Rachmaninoff prelude"?
Gavrilov.
Quote
To me, I'd rather not have a pianist make a Chopin prelude come out like a Rachmaninoff prelude. I want to hear Chopin. If I wanted to hear a Rachmaninoff prelude, I'd put on Rachmaninoff preludes. And vice versa, of course. (To make it clear, I'm not being negative about R., only being negative about playing music by other composers as if it was music by R.)
To be clear when I said "like Rachmaninoff," I meant that it was played boldly, with great passion and intensity. Not a sickly Chopin, but a strong, healthy Chopin. I used the Rachmaninoff reference as a shorthand. I know what you are saying, but I feel that there is room for many different approaches to these works. Cortot and Koczalski offer interpretations (slower, more poetic) that are very different from Gavrilov's and yet I enjoy them just as much as his.
Post by: zamyrabyrd on March 21, 2010, 08:23:26 PM
If this is not a parody I don't get it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYY47zdi8So&feature=related
Cocktail Chopin
Post by: Mandryka on March 21, 2010, 10:22:46 PM
Perhaps if I just heard the audio it would be different.
Exactly -- I rarely watch these videos. And this Katsaris one is particularly stupid.
Post by: Herman on March 22, 2010, 12:59:04 AM
Cocktail Chopin
exactly. where's the bowl with the dollar bills?
however the point I wanted to make too, is that this kind of performance just doesn't fit this music.
it's great if you can play it with such ease (though some shortcuts are taken), but it is not supposed to sound as if it came easy.
Post by: Scarpia on March 22, 2010, 08:34:54 PM
If there is a part I would take issue with it might be the second movement Trio, where Francois creates an impression of fleeting beauty where others, such as Pollini, wallow in it a bit more. But although I can't help but imagine what could have been, Francois' vision works there as well.
Post by: zamyrabyrd on March 23, 2010, 10:58:27 AM
The intro was spirited, tight and lyrical (the conductor could have been Louis Frémaux --not sure). The entry of the piano was rather a shock, not only was the tempo much slower but there was no effort to relate it to what the orchestra just did. And this pattern was repeated throughout the work while Francois was alternately slowing down and speeding up. It must have been maddening to try to keep up with him and I don't think they even ended together.
He took the second subject the same tempo as the introduction (finally) or maybe even faster, which was a surprise since the lyricism of a second theme is usually regarded as a foil to the first spirited one. Also the second movement in my opinion was rushed, depriving one of a repose between the fast movements. I also got the impression that certain difficult passages were slowed down to accomodate his technique at the time.
Having said that much, there was plenty of musical insight and beautiful phrasing from the pianist. I got the impression that he is best when left to himself, although this recording may be the exception.
ZB
Post by: George on March 23, 2010, 11:28:34 AM
As I enjoyed Moiseiwitsch's Chopin Preludes last night, I felt a bit dissapointed at the lack of intensity/fire/speed during the faster preludes.
Which performance(s) of the 24 Preludes, in your opinion, handles the slower preludes with great depth and poetry AND brings great fire and intensity to the faster preludes?
Post by: Holden on March 24, 2010, 01:38:53 AM
Arrau - live in Prague 1960
Bolet - Carnegie Hall recital
Fiorentino
Post by: Herman on March 24, 2010, 02:53:03 AM
for starters:
Arrau - live in Prague 1960
Bolet - Carnegie Hall recital
Fiorentino
And that's not just for starters. The Arrau and the Bolet are the ones I've been going back to since I first had them. I am not familiar with the Fiorentino. I would add Anda and Cherkassky (live in Salzburg). I am listening now to Zhukov's live performance from the nineties, and today it doesn't please me much. May be different another time. And the Moiseiwitch is pretty good, too.
The utter Everest to me is Arrau's Prague version, one that I do not listen to too often, as I want to keep it fresh.
Post by: George on March 24, 2010, 03:17:12 AM
I would add Anda and Cherkassky (live in Salzburg).
I've seen an Anda on DG. Is that the one you mean?
Post by: Herman on March 24, 2010, 03:57:32 AM
I've seen an Anda on DG. Is that the one you mean?
I suspect it is. Mine is in the Brilliant box. According to the credits it was recorded in 1959 in the Jesus Kirche in Berlin.
It is a studio recording and it doesn't have the high drama of a sink-or-swim live performance (neither does the Moiseiwitch), but I like it a lot.
I guess Anda is for me what a lot of folks here recently find in François (whom I do not like in Chopin).
Post by: George on March 24, 2010, 05:21:21 AM
I suspect it is. Mine is in the Brilliant box. According to the credits it was recorded in 1959 in the Jesus Kirche in Berlin.
It is a studio recording and it doesn't have the high drama of a sink-or-swim live performance (neither does the Moiseiwitch), but I like it a lot.
So it sounds like it won't be what I am looking for:
Quote
handles the slower preludes with great depth and poetry AND brings great fire and intensity to the faster preludes?
Anyway, I have aquired a copy and will listen to it this week, along with one by Katsaris.
Post by: Herman on March 24, 2010, 09:36:50 AM
Post by: George on March 24, 2010, 10:02:45 AM
Indeed, the Anda is not what you're looking for at this moment. I think that's Arrau, except that you already have that one, and it doesn't click with you?
Not the first time, I shall try again, though.
Quote
(See I can write like a woman talks?)
???
Post by: zamyrabyrd on March 25, 2010, 12:03:36 AM
Speaking of Katsaris, there is this video of him playing the 3d sonata.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtYUaHm1fak
it's not just that the interpretation strikes me as overly fussy, I don't get the video either, with CK making faces at the camera and casting glances towards the audience, and weird camera pans. It's almost as if this is some kind of vanity video, with the audience pasted in, later.
I see someone mentioned Bolet in relation to the Chopin Preludes. Here he plays masterfully the 4th movement of the 3rd Sonata. (Go back to school, Mr. K!!!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBOV_tJeAVU&feature=related
ZB
Post by: George on March 25, 2010, 03:10:58 PM
LP rips of Gilels' 1953 live Preludes (http://files.mail.ru/9HNHOM)
Post by: George on March 26, 2010, 04:34:42 PM
For round one, I compared the first four preludes. That helped me narrow the list down to just 11 pianists - Pires, Lucchesini, Barto, Moravec (Supraphon), Fiorentino, Sokolov, Katsaris, Sofronitsky, Gulda (11-17-59), Cortot (1933) and Argerich.
For round two, I compared preludes 5, 8, 10 and 12. These are some of the faster preludes. Barto and Cortot weren't up to the task.
For round three, I compared preludes 17, 19 and 24. This eliminated Argerich, Pires, Gulda, Katsaris and Sofronitsky.
That left four pianists for round four. I compared their performances of preludes 6, 7, 13 and 15. This revealed some holes in Lucchesini's performance and helped me choose 1st, 2nd and 3rd place. They are as follows, in order:
1. Sokolov (Naive)- An epic performance, with the best finale I have heard. Richter never recorded the complete preludes, but I imagine this is how it would sound if he had. A unique and powerful performance.
2. Moravec (Supraphon)- I had previously thought the much rarer, OOP VAI preludes were better than these, but after comparing them side by side, these are the clear winner. The piano tone is clearer and the playing is alternately more beautiful and more exciting. Tempos are more common than many of Sokolov's choices.
3. Lucchesini (EMI) - Definitely a surprise for me, as this one never seems to get mentioned anywhere. However, he is remarkably consistent throughout. The recorded sound is excellent and he plays with great sensitivity and clarity. The faster preludes do not disappoint either.
4. Fiorentino - Would have rated higher, but the finale and a few of the other preludes (7 and 19) didn't really work for me. Otherwise, like Sokolov, his is an individual, special account of these works. This includes the slowest a minor prelude I have ever heard, a haunting, beautiful reading.
Honorable mention - Pires was great, only her heavy pedal foot and that missing last bit of intensity kept her out of my favorites. She has great, full piano sound. Katsaris was impressive technically, but his nervous rhythms and often too fast tempos didn't do it for me. His sound is also excellent, though not as full as Pires.
Post by: Holden on March 26, 2010, 06:12:50 PM
I have Preludes from
Argerich
Arrau - Prague
Ashkenazy
Bolet - live
Cortot
Fiorentino
Gilels
Kissin
Pollini
Rubinstein
Sokolov
Zayas
Zhukov
Now my criteria are different from yours. I believe that there is a connection between the preludes thematically, tonically and/or structurally and there appears to be a logical progression from one Prelude to the other. With the exception of #15 say, they sound rather pointless when played by themselves.
So what I'm looking for is a sense of the 'integral' when I listen to the complete opus. How does one piece flow into the other, does the transition make sense? In many recordings of Opus 28 it does not. The contrasts in tempo have to connect work and Martha Argerich, as exciting as her version may be (and with the best #24), does not produce this. So while it may be OK to play #16 at breakneck speed (which follows nicely on from D flat) you've then got to adjust the tempo of #17 to make it fit the pattern which Argerich fails to do. The tempo of #16 is Presto con fuoco, not prestissimo as some try to play it. The con fuoco is enough to give it the bite it needs and a lot of the fire comes from the left hand.
With this in mind the following versions fit the bill - Bolet, Fiorentino, Cortot, Arrau and now the Gilels that I heard last night.
The Bolet and the Arrau are the ones I always return to and for different reasons. The fact that they are both live is no coincidence I believe and helps the flow. Arrau was a master at seeing and portraying the big picture and he is no different here. Bolet's Carnegie Hall recital is superb and you can feel the music flow naturally from piece to piece and it was my reference for a number of years and it still is in many ways.
Finally Gilels! I sat enraptured as I listened to the music unfold naturally and logically from this man's fingers . This is pure analloyed, unadulterated simple playing with no attempts to turn any big tricks. Each tempo is well considered. There are no extra accents or embellishments and the sense of listening to a whole work was palpable and this is how I like to hear Chopin. You don't have to work overtime to wring out every last piece of emotional content from the music - it's already there. The trick is to find it. This is what I believe Rubinstein does so well and maybe Gilels does as well (I'm going to have to find out). My favourite Chopin pianist is Solomon. This is how he played Chopin and listening to Gilels I think Solomon would have come up with something very similar.
Finally, a mention of a recording I used to have on LP by the great and much forgotten Spanish pianist Rafael Orozco. I no longer have the LP but some selections of Op 28 on Youtube take my memory back to this recording and how special it was to me. A pity that it never made it to CD.
So that's my 10 cents worth and thanks for the interesting thread material George.
Post by: George on March 26, 2010, 06:21:51 PM
So that's my 10 cents worth and thanks for the interesting thread material George.
And thanks very much for your post, Holden.
I have no idea why, but the live Bolet and live Arrau never completely clicked for me. I enjoy them both, but I don't consider them a top choice. I can't say exactly why, only that the performances just don't "speak" to me as a number of others do.
I agree with your point that these works are part of a whole and should be played that way (though Richter would perhaps argue the contrary) but it was impractical for me to compare 27 sets of preludes in this manner. My plan is to listen to the 6 top choices as a set over the next few weeks and see how they come across that way. At any rate, I like a slow 2nd prelude and a big, epic final prelude. These two preferences eliminate a lot of performances right off the bat, though I try my best to be open minded.
Post by: kishnevi on March 26, 2010, 06:49:53 PM
I don't have most of the versions you list--just four (Rubinstein, Pollini, Argerich, and Arrau (studio). But I do have one you don't mention, the relatively recent one by Blechacz. Is he one you've simply not heard, or one you've listened to and found wanting?
Post by: George on March 26, 2010, 06:53:38 PM
George, you should have had brackets and made it a March Madness play-off.
I don't have most of the versions you list--just four (Rubinstein, Pollini, Argerich, and Arrau (studio). But I do have one you don't mention, the relatively recent one by Blechacz. Is he one you've simply not heard, or one you've listened to and found wanting?
I just haven't heard it yet. I think I assumed that he plays in that modern style that I am not fond of. Am I wrong?
Post by: Holden on March 26, 2010, 06:54:07 PM
And thanks very much for your post, Holden.
I have no idea why, but the live Bolet and live Arrau never completely clicked for me. I enjoy them both, but I don't consider them a top choice. I can't say exactly why, only that the performances just don't "speak" to me as a number of others do.
I agree with your point that these works are part of a whole and should be played that way (though Richter would perhaps argue the contrary) but it was impractical for me to compare 27 sets of preludes in this manner. My plan is to listen to the 6 top choices as a set over the next few weeks and see how they come across that way. At any rate, I like a slow 2nd prelude and a big, epic final prelude. These two preferences eliminate a lot of performances right off the bat, though I try my best to be open minded.
...and that's the thing about the Chopin Preludes. They are an enigma in themselves because Chopin never stated why he wrote them. it's interesting that numbers 4 and 6 were played at his funeral.
Why where they composed? Was there meant to be a fugue with each one like Bach's WTC? Is this why you get so many widely varying yet acceptable performances of this work. It is one of my favourite all time compositions
Post by: George on March 26, 2010, 06:58:39 PM
...and that's the thing about the Chopin Preludes. They are an enigma in themselves because Chopin never stated why he wrote them. it's interesting that numbers 4 and 6 were played at his funeral.
Why where they composed? Was there meant to be a fugue with each one like Bach's WTC? Is this why you get so many widely varying yet acceptable performances of this work. It is one of my favourite all time compositions
I have always loved the nocturnes a lot more (I could listen to them every night), but the preludes are special indeed.
Post by: kishnevi on March 26, 2010, 07:29:55 PM
I just haven't heard it yet. I think I assumed that he plays in that modern style that I am not fond of. Am I wrong?
Mmmm--not quite sure what you mean by modern.
In fact, now that I think of it, it's been a while since I've listened to any of these recordings, so I'd better not comment in detail on them--only say that my general impression of Blechacz was that I liked him better than Pollini and Rubinstein, and possibly Arrau.
It's too late tonight, but guess what I'll be listening to tomorrow after I come home from work?
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on March 26, 2010, 07:37:22 PM
2. Moravec (Supraphon)- I had previously thought the much rarer, OOP VAI preludes were better than these, but after comparing them side by side, these are the clear winner. The piano tone is clearer and the playing is alternately more beautiful and more exciting.
Right on!
Moravec = Chopin heaven.
I think it's the exoticism of his playing that enthralls. Rich and colorful with a daring that illuminates each bar.
Post by: George on March 26, 2010, 07:39:37 PM
Mmmm--not quite sure what you mean by modern.
More like Pollini, less like Arrau.
Quote
It's too late tonight, but guess what I'll be listening to tomorrow after I come home from work?
Working for the Weekend by Loverboy? ;)
I am in the process of downloading that Blechacz and plan to listen to it this weekend. 8)
Post by: George on March 26, 2010, 07:41:06 PM
Right on!
Moravec = Chopin heaven.
I think it's the exoticism of his playing that enthralls. Rich and colorful with a daring that illuminates each bar.
Only his Ballades have disappointed me. I have tried a few times, but can't seem to follow him. :-\
Otherwise, yes, his Chopin is superb.
Post by: kishnevi on March 26, 2010, 07:48:25 PM
More like Pollini, less like Arrau.
In that case--he's more on the Arrau side than the Pollini side, I think. But I'll have to listen to them all again to be sure.
Quote
I am in the process of downloading that Blechacz and plan to listen to it this weekend. 8)
I'll be interested in your opinion.
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on March 26, 2010, 07:52:14 PM
Only his Ballades have disappointed me. I have tried a few times, but can't seem to follow him. :-\
How interesting. I think I'll give his Ballads a spin again soon and see how they measure up.
Who do you like in the Ballads, btw?
Post by: George on March 26, 2010, 08:09:39 PM
How interesting. I think I'll give his Ballads a spin again soon and see how they measure up.
Who do you like in the Ballads, btw?
When I last compared, I liked the live Tipo best. Perahia was one of my first and I recall liking that set as well. Gulda's set is a technical marvel.
Post by: George on March 27, 2010, 05:38:06 AM
George, you should have had brackets and made it a March Madness play-off.
;D
I am always looking for ways to compare recordings and keep it fun, you might be onto something there.
Quote
I don't have most of the versions you list--just four (Rubinstein, Pollini, Argerich, and Arrau (studio). But I do have one you don't mention, the relatively recent one by Blechacz. Is he one you've simply not heard, or one you've listened to and found wanting?
I actually listened to this one this morning. His tone is nice and his technique is sound. However, his playing lacks the depth I hear in Cortot, Moravec and Sokolov and that last bit of excitement I hear in Katsaris, Argerich, Sokolov and Fiorentino.
Post by: Peregrine on March 30, 2010, 10:52:36 AM
Momo Kodama
Impromptu en fa dièse majeur opus 36
Nocturne en ut mineur opus 48 n°1
Quatre Mazurkas opus 41
Scherzo n°3 en ut dièse mineur opus 39
Deux Nocturnes opus 27
Moderato (Feuille d'Album) en mi majeur
Sonate n°3 en si mineur opus 58
Scherzo n°2 en si bémol mineur opus 31
Valses opus 34 n°2 et n°3
Variations brillantes en si bémol majeur opus 12
Quatre Mazurkas opus 24
Fantaisie-Impromptu en ut dièse mineur opus 66
http://bit.ly/coC4gB
Anne Queffélec
Ballade n°3 en la bémol majeur opus 47
Ballade n°4 en fa mineur opus 52
Nocturne en sol mineur opus 37 n°1
Scherzo n°4 en mi majeur opus 54
Trois Mazurkas opus 50 No 1
Trois Mazurkas opus 50 No 2
Trois Mazurkas opus 50 No 3
Valse en fa mineur opus 70 n°2
Valse en mi bémol majeur "Sostenuto"
Berceuse en ré bémol majeur opus 57
Barcarolle en fa dièse majeur opus 60
Nocturne en sol mineur opus 15 n°3
Cantabile en si bémol majeur
Largo en mi bémol majeur
Valse en la bémol majeur opus 69 n°1
http://bit.ly/bjhhpq
Post by: George on March 30, 2010, 10:56:37 AM
Some recitals over at Symphonyshare from Nantes 2010. Not pianists I'm familiar with, but have seen praise for them both over at RMCR -
Anne Queffélec
I enjoy her Satie, so I should check that recital out, Thanks!
Post by: Scarpia on March 30, 2010, 12:10:38 PM
Post by: George on March 30, 2010, 02:47:34 PM
Anyone know why Rubinstein and Moravec didn't record these for their complete sets?
Also, which are your favorite performances of these two works?
Post by: Verena on March 30, 2010, 03:04:05 PM
Quote
Also, which are your favorite performances of these two works?
Rubinstein's first set and the few Sokolov performances of individual Nocturnes I have listened to. If only Zimerman or Sokolov were to record a set..
Post by: Verena on March 30, 2010, 03:05:44 PM
Post by: George on March 30, 2010, 03:07:23 PM
Rubinstein's first set and the few Sokolov performances of individual Nocturnes I have listened to. If only Zimerman or Sokolov were to record a set..
I LOVE Zimerman's Concerti with the Polish Orchestra. Best I have heard of these two works. :)
Post by: Verena on March 30, 2010, 03:30:58 PM
Quote
I LOVE Zimerman's Concerti with the Polish Orchestra. Best I have heard of these two works.
Zimerman's Ballades on DVD are also great (not the same recording as the CD, although I think it was recorded the same year); I also love many of his early Chopin recordings
Post by: George on March 30, 2010, 03:40:15 PM
Zimerman's Ballades on DVD are also great (not the same recording as the CD, although I think it was recorded the same year); I also love many of his early Chopin recordings
I only have the CD version of his Ballades. I recall that he played them in a "for the concert hall" manner. I should revisit them, for when I last heard those recordings I had a narrow definition of how these works should be played.
Post by: George on March 30, 2010, 03:46:30 PM
I compared them and found Wasowski to be my favorite. His has the slowest tempo of all the versions I compared and this helps to create a dark, mysterious mood that works well with this work. Arrau was a close second, with a gorgeous tone and great sound. I also enjoyed Abbey Simon and Ricardo Castro's reading of this work.
Post by: George on March 30, 2010, 04:29:38 PM
I have always loved the post. c# minor Nocturne by Chopin. I discovered tonight that I have 11 recordings of it - Arrau, Ashkenazy, Vasary, Wasowski, Ciccolini, Tipo, Pires, Simon, Freire, Boegner and Ricardo Castro.
I compared them and found Wasowski to be my favorite. His has the slowest tempo of all the versions I compared and this helps to create a dark, mysterious mood that works well with this work. Arrau was a close second, with a gorgeous tone and great sound. I also enjoyed Abbey Simon and Ricardo Castro's reading of this work.
Here's a sample of the Wasowski for those who are curious:
http://queencdmastering.wikispaces.com/file/detail/Wasowski+Chopin+Nocturne.mp3
Click the triangle on the bottom left to listen.
Post by: kishnevi on March 30, 2010, 07:58:32 PM
I enjoy her Satie, so I should check that recital out, Thanks!
She's also done a complete Ravel; it's available as a Virgin double disc.
Post by: Brian on March 30, 2010, 08:24:40 PM
Post by: George on April 03, 2010, 02:36:55 PM
I have been working on a survey of pianists who have recorded all four of Chopin’s lovely Ballades. Over the years I have accumulated a number of different interpretations and thought it would be useful to compare them.
The pianists used in this survey are Moiseiwitsch, Cortot (Naxos), Ashkenazy (1960s and 1980s), Gulda, Entremont, Perahia, Zimerman, Rubinstein, Arrau, Moravec, Vasary, Gavrilov, Anievas, Tipo (live, Ermitage), Richter (live, Praga) and Casadesus (live, Sony.)
To make things more manageable, I listened to each pianists Ballade number one and then only listened to Ballade two from pianists whom I felt excelled at Ballade number one. In the same way, I only listened to Ballade three from pianists who excelled at one and two. At this point, I had narrowed the list to seven pianists; Gavrilov, Moravec, Perahia, Cortot, Ashkenazy (1980s), Zimerman and Tipo (live, Ermitage.) All seven did well enough in three so that I wanted to hear their fourth Ballade to make my final decisions.
In the end, these were my findings. I enjoyed Cortot’s but felt that he was hampered a great deal by poor sound and somewhat sloppy playing. Nevertheless, his set makes a fine historical choice, especially because his Ballades are coupled with a number of gorgeously played Nocturnes. Zimerman had a number of things going for him, including great sound, technique and finish. However, I often found his dynamic contrasts to be too extreme, too Lisztian for my taste. Perahia also had much going for him, beautiful playing throughout and also very nice sound. Unfortunately, his playing was often generic, lacking spontaneity and excitement found in other readings. Gavrilov played these works extremely well, but unfortunately interpreted these much like Zimerman. His forte chords at times sounded steely and downright banging. Ashkenazy’s 1980’s readings were better than all the above, though a few times his recordings were somewhat generic, sounding dull and/or less exciting than others.
Moravec’s Ballades were much better than I had remembered. His slow tempos, dark piano sound, solid technique and sumptuous tone made for some special readings of these four works. His playing lacked some of Gavrilov and Zimerman’s drama, but it certainly wasn’t boring by any means. In fact, his set would be my favorite if it weren’t for the very special live recording by Maria Tipo. Her intensity and beautiful tone throughout has to be heard to believed. Considering that all of the above performances were studio creations and, with the exception of Cortot, therefore likely benefited from editing and retakes. The sound of her piano seemed a bit out of tune in the first Ballade, but this annoyance quickly faded into the background as she continued. She was at her best in the third and fourth Ballades, where she played with all the requisite power, along with that special beauty I look for in my Chopin. This OOP Ermitage CD is well worth seeking out. Luckily the Moravec Ballades remain in print and at Budget price.
Post by: Scarpia on April 03, 2010, 05:37:53 PM
(http://www.discogs.com/image/R-1361957-1226018903.jpeg)
Deluxe Philips boxed set, 13 CDs issued in 1992. Treasure or Turkey?
Post by: George on April 03, 2010, 05:45:24 PM
Just came by this one:
(http://www.discogs.com/image/R-1361957-1226018903.jpeg)
Deluxe Philips boxed set, 13 CDs issued in 1992. Treasure or Turkey?
Harry's a big fan. Sidoze used to tease him about it all the time. I haven't heard anything from that box sorry.
Post by: Scarpia on April 03, 2010, 07:57:53 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EjHljBwGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Post by: Coopmv on April 03, 2010, 08:00:36 PM
There's also this set, only available on German Eloquence, if I'm not mistaken.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EjHljBwGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I thought Eloquence was issued as an Australian label. No?
Post by: Scarpia on April 03, 2010, 08:02:17 PM
I thought Eloquence was issued as an Australian label. No?
Universal Germany also has an eloquence series which shares the name and little else. I've only seen it on amazon.de. The German series all seems to have virtual surround sound processing called amsi, which has motivated me to largely avoid the series.
Post by: Mandryka on April 04, 2010, 12:21:51 AM
Chopin BalladesInteresting.
I have been working on a survey of pianists who have recorded all four of Chopin’s lovely Ballades . . .
You listened to some I haven't heard.
And I’m curious about what put you off Moiseiwitsch and Richter.
And I hope you used Cortot 1933 .
Post by: George on April 04, 2010, 03:41:06 AM
Interesting.
You listened to some I haven't heard.
And I’m curious about what put you off Moiseiwitsch and Richter.
I just never liked the former (though his preludes are very good), in fact it's taken me a long time to appreciate his pianism. The latter is just too intense on a few preludes, way over the top IMO.
Quote
And I hope you used Cortot 1933 .
I didn't. Just the Naxos (1929.) Why?
Post by: Mandryka on April 04, 2010, 04:22:16 AM
I didn't. Just the Naxos (1929.) Why?
It’s a question of little details. I prefer Cortot's later one because of little things, like some amazing little trills leading up to the coda of the second ballade. But the 1929 one is fine -- just not as good IMO.
Does anyone know if he recorded any of the Ballades after the war?
I love that Richter first Ballade on Praga -- and the second and third. There's a unique Richter/Chopin melancholy which you hear really well in the soft opening to the G minor -- followed by hallucinatory, unchainmed explosive passages.
You need to be a bit neurotic, a bit mad, to play this music, I think. I'm not sure that Tipo was mad enough.
Post by: George on April 04, 2010, 04:41:14 AM
You need to be a bit neurotic, a bit mad, to play this music, I think. I'm not sure that Tipo was mad enough.
I don't get the connection. If you were talking about Scriabin or Schumann, I'd be inclined to agree, but mad to play Chopin? Can you explain this?
Post by: Mandryka on April 04, 2010, 06:48:08 AM
I don't get the connection. If you were talking about Scriabin or Schumann, I'd be inclined to agree, but mad to play Chopin? Can you explain this?
Yes I can have a go.
In Chopin things are sometimes not quite clear emotionally. Positive feelings don't last long or are tinged with darkness
If you don't feel this you get the sort of playing that Rubinstein often comes up with. Architecturally strong, lyrical, entertaining, in your face, straightforward. But not so much psychhological depth. Or better, ambiguity.
If you do feel it you get Cortot. All those wierd little bass rumbles and funny little glissandi Cortot makes you hear, like stabs of anxiety.
Sometimes Richter too -- in that Praga 3rd Ballade, for example.
The clearest example of the general point I want to make is in the nocturnes. If you have them, listen to Rubinstein and Cortot side by side in the nocturne Op 55/1 or 27/1
Post by: George on April 04, 2010, 06:52:33 AM
Yes I can have a go.
In Chopin things are sometimes not quite clear emotionally. Positive feelings don't last long or are tinged with darkness
If you don't feel this you get the sort of playing that Rubinstein often comes up with. Architecturally strong, lyrical, entertaining, in your face, straightforward. But not so much psychhological depth. Or better, ambiguity.
If you do feel it you get Cortot. All those wierd little bass rumbles and funny little glissandi Cortot makes you hear, like stabs of anxiety.
Sometimes Richter too -- in that Praga 3rd Ballade, for example.
The clearest example of the general point I want to make is in the nocturnes. If you have them, listen to Rubinstein and Cortot side by side in the nocturne Op 55/1 or 27/1
Thanks for explaining, I think I see what you mean. Which Rubinstein do you suggest? I have all three sets.
Post by: Mandryka on April 04, 2010, 07:03:48 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/QAcAWWU_0mE
Now contrast Cortot, esp at around 2.16
http://www.youtube.com/v/FUUJFCvClL0
Post by: George on April 04, 2010, 07:08:36 AM
Post by: George on April 04, 2010, 07:48:58 AM
It’s a question of little details. I prefer Cortot's later one because of little things, like some amazing little trills leading up to the coda of the second ballade. But the 1929 one is fine -- just not as good IMO.
I am listening to the 1933 now and it's definitely better. Most of all, you can hear the pianist better, as the microphones seemed to have been placed closer to the piano. Or perhaps it was simply the advances in recording between 1929 and 1933? Still, it has that typical EMI filtering in the upper frequencies that I despise. :-\
Post by: George on April 04, 2010, 06:26:25 PM
You need to be a bit neurotic, a bit mad, to play this music, I think.
Does this mean that you are a big fan of Horowitz's Chopin?
Post by: Mandryka on April 04, 2010, 09:09:34 PM
Does this mean that you are a big fan of Horowitz's Chopin?
Yes, I am-- but you have to be careful about the performances you choose, because he is so variable. He played the same pieces over and over again for about 50 years -- sometime he played them astonishingly well, sometimes terribly. often he played them in a mediocre way.
I strongly recommend a disc in his GPE Vol. 3 which has a selection of Mazurkas, Etudes and Preludes, selected from his entire career.
Also his Op. 44 Polonaise in F#-minor and the Introduction & Rondo in E-flat major, Op.16.
Post by: Scarpia on April 08, 2010, 03:12:06 PM
Post by: MN Dave on April 08, 2010, 03:18:03 PM
Listening to the Waltzes by Nikita Magaloff. Not the deepest music that Chopin wrote, but much refinement and melodic invention. Magaloff makes the music sound wonderful, and Philips gives him excellent sound.
I recently purchased that one but haven't given it a good listen yet. Glad you like it.
Post by: Scarpia on April 08, 2010, 03:26:59 PM
I recently purchased that one but haven't given it a good listen yet. Glad you like it.
I see. I didn't know they were in current release. I came upon the old Philips complete edition that was released years ago (mid 90's). This is not the sort of music that changes your life, but I think you won't be disappointed.
Post by: MN Dave on April 08, 2010, 03:32:06 PM
I see. I didn't know they were in current release. I came upon the old Philips complete edition that was released years ago (mid 90's). This is not the sort of music that changes your life, but I think you won't be disappointed.
Yes, it's available from Eloquence. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-media/product-gallery/B00004UPMT/ref=cm_ciu_pdp_images_0?ie=UTF8&index=0)
Post by: Drasko on April 13, 2010, 03:54:20 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/y7172ETaFL8
http://www.youtube.com/v/vW-lod4GWsg
http://www.youtube.com/v/L9hJJvzx6k4
Released on Connoisseur Society LP in 1974. Never on CD. Does anyone know if LP rips could be found?
Post by: karlhenning on April 13, 2010, 04:20:38 AM
Post by: George on April 13, 2010, 07:58:20 AM
Released on Connoisseur Society LP in 1974. Never on CD. Does anyone know if LP rips could be found?
Can you type out the specifics? I am at work and can't access youtube.
Otherwise I can try later to check when I get home.
Post by: George on April 13, 2010, 07:59:02 AM
Really enjoying Garrick Ohlsson in the Opus 28 Préludes, e tutti i Mazurkas.
On the EMI label or the Arabesque label?
Post by: karlhenning on April 13, 2010, 08:07:09 AM
Post by: Drasko on April 13, 2010, 10:03:52 AM
Can you type out the specifics? I am at work and can't access youtube.
Chopin The Four Scherzi - Antonio Barbosa - 1974 Connoisseur Society CSQ 2071
Post by: George on April 13, 2010, 10:21:54 AM
Chopin The Four Scherzi - Antonio Barbosa - 1974 Connoisseur Society CSQ 2071
Shall I assume that you've checked Demonoid and the public torrents already?
Post by: Drasko on April 13, 2010, 10:55:02 AM
Shall I assume that you've checked Demonoid and the public torrents already?
I'm not a member at Demonoid, few google searches I tried came up with nothing.
Post by: George on April 13, 2010, 10:56:15 AM
I'm not a member at Demonoid, few google searches I tried came up with nothing.
I'll check Demonoid later.
Post by: George on April 13, 2010, 12:06:59 PM
Chopin The Four Scherzi - Antonio Barbosa - 1974 Connoisseur Society CSQ 2071
Sorry, nothing on demonoid. :-\
Post by: Herman on April 14, 2010, 01:13:03 AM
Really enjoying Garrick Ohlsson in the Opus 28 Préludes, e tutti i Mazurkas.
The funny thing is I dug out the Ohlsson Mazurkae recently, too, the Arabesque cds. Previously I thought Ohlssohn was a bitten too wooden, rigid, for this music, but this time around there were a few I rather enjoyed. Virtually no one is persuasive in every single Mazurka.
Post by: Brian on April 14, 2010, 04:49:23 AM
The funny thing is I dug out the Ohlsson Mazurkae recently, too, the Arabesque cds. Previously I thought Ohlssohn was a bitten too wooden, rigid, for this music, but this time around there were a few I rather enjoyed. Virtually no one is persuasive in every single Mazurka.
I got the big Ohlsson box on Hyperion [Arabesque] - have enjoyed the mazurkas, etudes, very lyrical/subdued ballades (compared to, say, Rubinstein), and a handful of nocturnes, but I thought his waltzes were not all that bright or scintillating compared to Alexandre Tharaud or some of the classic performers.
EDIT: Who comes closest to being persuasive in every mazurka? They may yet become my favorite genre of Chopin works.
Post by: Bulldog on April 14, 2010, 04:57:08 AM
Really enjoying Garrick Ohlsson in the Opus 28 Préludes, e tutti i Mazurkas.
What do you think of Ohlsson's inclusion of the Largo version of Prelude no. 14?
Post by: karlhenning on April 14, 2010, 07:36:40 AM
Post by: Bulldog on April 14, 2010, 08:04:29 AM
Ptui, mistake. Meant the Etudes . . . I don't have Ohlsson in the Préludes, Don.
Okay. I thought that Largo was the best feature of Ohlsson in the Preludes. Leaving aside the Largo, his performance is very good but a long way from outstanding.
Post by: Drasko on April 14, 2010, 08:04:46 AM
EDIT: Who comes closest to being persuasive in every mazurka? They may yet become my favorite genre of Chopin works.
http://www.amazon.com/Rubinstein-Collection-Vol-Frederic-Chopin/dp/B000054278
Post by: Brian on April 14, 2010, 08:31:05 AM
Ptui, mistake. Meant the Etudes . . . I don't have Ohlsson in the Préludes, Don.
I was listening to those Ohlsson Etudes last night, too! Loved the lighter touch he had in so many of them - they weren't heavy-handed exercises; there was poetry to be heard. Jolly good stuff. :)
Post by: George on April 14, 2010, 08:43:28 AM
EDIT: Who comes closest to being persuasive in every mazurka? They may yet become my favorite genre of Chopin works.
I really like Luisadas set on DG. Wasowski and the second Rubinstein are great too. Unfortunately, all three sets are hard to find.
Post by: Scarpia on April 14, 2010, 10:02:09 AM
Drasko, would you recommend that set over the later, stereo remakes? I only ask because I already own the stereo set and just have not listened to it yet.
I was listening to those Ohlsson Etudes last night, too! Loved the lighter touch he had in so many of them - they weren't heavy-handed exercises; there was poetry to be heard. Jolly good stuff. :)
Well, I am starting to feel smug about picking up the Ohlsson Chopin cycle during the wild sale at the french web site. :D I have to find time to listen to it, though.
Post by: Verena on April 14, 2010, 10:59:10 AM
Quote
I really like Luisadas set on DG. Wasowski and the second Rubinstein are great too. Unfortunately, all three sets are hard to find.
George, did Luisada record all Mazurkas? The Luisada set - or part of it - is available as mp3s in the DG webshop:
http://www2.deutschegrammophon.com/cat/result?sort=newest_rec&PRODUCT_NR=4630542&SearchString=&SEARCH_OPTIONS=&javascript=1&IN_XXSERIES=&IN_XXPQ=&per_page=50&COMP_ID=&ALBUM_TYPE=&IN_SERIES=&ART_ID=LUIJE&IN_XXAWARDS=&start=0&MOZART_22=0&GENRE=&presentation=list&ADD_DECCA=0
Apparently, the Luisaa is to be re-released as a Super Audio CD - DSD soon:
http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Mazurkas-Jean-Marc-Luisada/dp/B003D1218M/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1271274920&sr=1-7
Post by: Mandryka on April 14, 2010, 11:00:11 AM
Also the Mazurkas Moravec plays on that CD with the Chopin Scherzos -- very good.
Post by: George on April 14, 2010, 11:11:08 AM
George, did Luisada record all Mazurkas? The Luisada set - or part of it - is available as mp3s in the DG webshop:
http://www2.deutschegrammophon.com/cat/result?sort=newest_rec&PRODUCT_NR=4630542&SearchString=&SEARCH_OPTIONS=&javascript=1&IN_XXSERIES=&IN_XXPQ=&per_page=50&COMP_ID=&ALBUM_TYPE=&IN_SERIES=&ART_ID=LUIJE&IN_XXAWARDS=&start=0&MOZART_22=0&GENRE=&presentation=list&ADD_DECCA=0
No, he didn't record them all. Some of the later ones are missing.
Post by: Brian on April 14, 2010, 12:11:47 PM
Well, I am starting to feel smug about picking up the Ohlsson Chopin cycle during the wild sale at the french web site. :D I have to find time to listen to it, though.
Yeah, I got it there too. $30 for the complete Chopin? Sign me up!
Post by: George on April 14, 2010, 01:00:08 PM
Well, I am starting to feel smug about picking up the Ohlsson Chopin cycle during the wild sale at the french web site. :D I have to find time to listen to it, though.
Did he rerecord the whole output of Chopin for that set? I know he already had recorded a lot for EMI then for Arabesque.
Post by: Drasko on April 14, 2010, 01:06:13 PM
Drasko, would you recommend that set over the later, stereo remakes? I only ask because I already own the stereo set and just have not listened to it yet.
I prefer the earlier (middle one) but if you already have later one just go on and listen to it.
Post by: Scarpia on April 14, 2010, 01:10:22 PM
Did he rerecord the whole output of Chopin for that set? I know he already had recorded a lot for EMI then for Arabesque.
The recordings in the Hyperion set are from Arabesque.
Post by: George on April 14, 2010, 01:23:54 PM
The recordings in the Hyperion set are from Arabesque.
OK, thanks.
Post by: George on April 15, 2010, 02:04:51 PM
Released on Connoisseur Society LP in 1974. Never on CD. Does anyone know if LP rips could be found?
If you ever track these down, please let me know? Those are GREAT performances. :o
Post by: Drasko on April 18, 2010, 12:13:57 AM
If you ever track these down, please let me know? Those are GREAT performances. :o
Sure.
Post by: Mandryka on April 18, 2010, 06:17:40 AM
A very entertaining CD, well worth hearing, especially for the mazurkas and the third sonata.
In the mazurkas she is impetuous but controlled. She's not nervous; but she isn't tranquil either.
And in the sonata she balances the voices so beautifully. In the first movement you are really made to hear Chopin's counterpoint (which is far from trivial.) At times in the slow movement her voice is confidential.
I find her style in these pieces completely convincing and original. It's music making which continues to haunt me long after I have heard it.
Post by: George on April 18, 2010, 06:23:07 AM
Post by: abidoful on April 19, 2010, 12:28:13 AM
CONCERTOS- Perahia of both of them+Argerich& Abbado of the 1st
POLONAISE BRILLANTE OP.22 - Rubinstein (the one with orchestra)
(of the other orchestral don't know any completely satisfactory)
TRIO- definately the suberb Trio Oistrakh recording from late 40s
CELLO SONATA- Rostropovich& Argerich
POLONAISE OP.3- Rostropovich& Argerich
SONATAS
1st- Katsaris
2nd- Pogorelich, Rachmaninov
3rd- Lipatti, Janne Mertanen (Finnish pianist)
VARIATIONS- I guess Ashkenazy, the SCHWEIZERBUB is nice(though generally NOT my fav. pianist) but of op.12 don't know any...
ALLEGRO DE CONCERT-
RONDI-don't know any... apart from the Horowitz performance of the OP.16. Any suggestions, anyone?
INTRODUCTION & BOLERO IN A-MINOR (yeah, THAT'S the right tonality!!)- Rubinstein
FANTAISIE- Michelangeli
POLONAISE-FANTAISIE- don't know a completely satisfactory one: (
BALLADES
1st- Michelangeli
2nd- Pogorelich
3rd- Rachmaninov (kind of eccentric but ingenious)
4th- Rubinstein
SCHERZI- I guess Pollini of all of them but individual;
2nd- Michelangeli
4th- Horowitz
POLONAISES- Rubinstein of them all (the ones with opus number), individual;
op.44- Pogorelich, Horowitz
BARCAROLLE- Cortot, Rubinstein, Pollini
GRANDE VALSE BRILLANTE OP.18- Rachmaninov; very funny: D
VALSE BRILLANTE OP.34/1- Michelangeli
WALTZ op.42- Rachmaninov
NOCTURNES- Rubinstein of them all, individual
e-minor from late 1820s- Horowitz
IMPROMPTUS- Rubinstein and perhaps Perahia of them all, individual;
1st- Cortot
3rd- definately Rubinstein
TARANTELLA- don't know any
MAZURKAS- Rubinstein of them all, the 30s (definately that one!)
WALTZES- Lipatti
BERCEUSE- Cortot, Rubinstein
ETUDES
opp.10&25 definately Cortot; a classic
the set of three- Rubinstein
PRELUDES- I guess Argerich ( I believe i would like them, though haven't heard them), Cortot, of the individual;
g-minor, Bflat major,d-minor- Pogorelich (like them very much)
SONGS- of them all, in my opinion the best is Urszula Kryger & Charles Spencer, individual songs;
Wojak, Precz moich oczu, Hulanka- Hiolski
Melodia, Nie ma czeko trzeba- Robert Tear
Moja Pieszczotka, Wiosna, Smutna Rzeka- Kryger
Post by: Herman on April 19, 2010, 01:05:52 AM
PRELUDES- I guess Argerich ( I believe i would like them, though haven't heard them),
In that case they can't possibly disappoint you. Just kidding.
A couple pianists you could give a try are: Moravec, pre-1960 Arrau (Etudes, Preludes, Ballades), Bolet (Preludes and 3d sonata), and Sv Richter, for that Polonaise Fantaisie you're looking for.
Post nr 1000
Post by: Mandryka on April 19, 2010, 07:53:03 AM
2nd- Pogorelich, RachmaninovAgreed about Rachmaninov for the second. I would add Michelangeli.
3rd- Lipatti, Janne Mertanen (Finnish pianist)
For the third. I would add Pletnev.
BALLADES1st Cortot
1st- Michelangeli
2nd- Pogorelich
3rd- Rachmaninov (kind of eccentric but ingenious)
4th- Rubinstein
3rd -- Richter
4th Moiseiewitsch, Arrau live (Ermitage)
SCHERZI- I guess Pollini of all of them but individual;1st -- Sofronitsky
2nd- Michelangeli
4th- Horowitz
3rd -- Moravec
POLONAISES- Rubinstein of them all (the ones with opus number), individual;I have mixed feelings about the 1968 Op 44 -- it is a bit brash!
op.44- Pogorelich, Horowitz
Richter is very good in the Pollonaises and the Pollonaise-Fantasie too, as Hermann says.
BARCAROLLE- Cortot, Rubinstein, PolliniMoiseiewitsch 1939. Richter live from Sazburg. Sofroniotsky (1949)
MAZURKAS- Rubinstein of them all, the 30s (definately that one!)Maybe the 30s one -- it is one of my favourites. Michelangeli and Richter and (some) Moravec for me too.
WALTZES- Lipatti
Cortot, Kocsis. And all the ones done by Sofronitsky and Richter.
NOCTURNES- Rubinstein of them all, individual
e-minor from late 1820s- Horowitz
Weissenberg, Cortot (esp 55/1), Sofronitsky (1949 -- esp 48/1 and 27/2). Arrau (Ermitage) for Op 62/1.
BERCEUSE- Cortot, RubinsteinSolomon, Hofmann
ETUDES
opp.10&25 definately Cortot; a classic
the set of three- Rubinstein
Richter, Cziffra, Horowitz
PRELUDES- I guess Argerich ( I believe i would like them, though haven't heard them), Cortot, of the individual;I like 1955 live Cortot. And Sofronitsky 1949 is sombre and tragic.
g-minor, Bflat major,d-minor- Pogorelich (like them very much)
Do you even like Progorelich in the slow preludes?
Post by: MichaelRabin on April 20, 2010, 01:09:43 PM
Post by: George on April 20, 2010, 01:16:16 PM
Are Moravec's Chopin Nocturnes so superior that literally all the people on Amazon (40 pax) put 5 stars on the Amazon site? How does Arrau & Rubinstein fare vis-a-vis Moravec please? Thanks.
For me, Arrau wins out against both. I find him more expressive, not to mention better recorded.
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 20, 2010, 02:45:14 PM
For me, Arrau wins out against both. I find him more expressive, not to mention better recorded.
George - well, I'm not sure, Moarvec was culled to my favorite version of these works - I picked up the Earl Wild recordings and enjoyed - BTW, I've you hard his interpretations? I guess that my 'bottom line' is that Moravec is pretty damn good - for us 'mortals' not into the most finite differences, would not Moravec please in these performances for much of us? Just a thought - you don't need the perfect interpretation (if possible), but one of the tops will likely satisfy most of us, I would suspect - Dave :)
Post by: George on April 20, 2010, 03:32:06 PM
George - well, I'm not sure, Moarvec was culled to my favorite version of these works - I picked up the Earl Wild recordings and enjoyed - BTW, I've you hard his interpretations?
Yes, I sampled Wild's Nocturnes over the weekend, in fact. I didn't really like them, as they seemed to subdued for me.
Quote
I guess that my 'bottom line' is that Moravec is pretty damn good - for us 'mortals' not into the most finite differences, would not Moravec please in these performances for much of us? Just a thought - you don't need the perfect interpretation (if possible), but one of the tops will likely satisfy most of us, I would suspect - Dave :)
LOL! I expect to die just like the rest of us, Dave. I hope so, as I don't wanna live forever. ;D
To me, the difference between Arrau's interpretation and the others is not subtle. I expect that most Classical buffs could pick his out in a crowded field. In fact a lot of folks don't like his way with this music, finding it mannered or even ponderous. I find his caressing care to every phrase to be thoroughly enjoyable. I don't really like much else of his Chopin, strange enough, but here he is sublime.
They key in choosing an interpretation (and I am certain that you must know this) is understanding that there's not one perfect choice for everyone. However, there just might be one perfect one for you. And really only you can make that call. That said, Moravec is an excellent set. I really like Wasowski, Ciccolini and Tipo in these works too. They are all OOP but worth seeking out in the used bins. The two early Rubinstein sets are very enjoyable and interesting as well. We are blessed by the fact that these lovely works have been served very well over the years by many different pianists IMO.
Post by: dirkronk on April 20, 2010, 05:06:20 PM
Are Moravec's Chopin Nocturnes so superior that literally all the people on Amazon (40 pax) put 5 stars on the Amazon site? How does Arrau & Rubinstein fare vis-a-vis Moravec please? Thanks.
Not an easy call. The more I listen over the years, the more my tastes move around. For me, Arrau's attractions still exist, but my one-time placement of his Nocturnes above Rubinstein & Moravec has been on the wane for a while. Rubinstein, whom I'd cooled on several years back, is most definitely on the rise again for me (talking here of his last, stereo set). Moravec occupies a more stable middle ground. But these three HAVE made up the range of interps that makes me happy, so for now and the foreseeable future, all three are necessary. See what I mean? Don't mean to be wishy-washy, but no one pianist makes it all happen for me all the time.
BTW, I've noted George's evaluation of Arrau's as "better recorded"--but would suggest that a showdown of the analog originals on a superior turntable might prove otherwise. Fact is, I wouldn't put money that the Philips would beat the Connoisseur Society original recordings by E. Alan Silver, who was arguably one of the best recordists of piano of the pre-digital era. Sound on CD may be more problematic, and obviously dependent on the quality of the transfers.
;D
Dirk
Post by: abidoful on April 20, 2010, 11:23:08 PM
Well, I have heard only that B-flat prelude (the only slow one) and yeahm I did like it :) Though he's sound is little "straight forward" & kind of narrow...but everything else- the phrasing, the tempo- I like. It is from LP I once heard containing the 2nd Ballade, the E flat Nocturne (op.55) these few preludes and something else that I forgot. great recording. And he's 2nd sonata is in my opinnion the ideal performance; the SCENT OF DEATH
Do you even like Progorelich in the slow preludes?
Post by: Holden on April 20, 2010, 11:52:25 PM
For me, Arrau wins out against both. I find him more expressive, not to mention better recorded.
For me it's Rubinstein and Moravec for the complete set. However, as you ably pointed out, it's all down to your 'way' with Chopin. While I find the Arrau very mannered others hear this as him getting down the essence of the Nocturnes.
Arrau was more than just a pianist. He was an exceptional musician so I can understand why people really like his nocturne interpretations. I have his Liszt TE's and for many they don't have the bravura approach that we expect of this fine set of Etudes. The likes of Gekic, Cziffra and Ovchinikov have produced outstanding recordings of this ouevre with all the flash and crash required. But when I listen to Arrau's 'Harmonies du Soir' I know that he plumbed the musical depths that little bit further than any of them. Maybe this is what others hear in his Chopin Nocturne set.
Post by: George on April 21, 2010, 01:55:49 AM
Arrau was more than just a pianist. He was an exceptional musician so I can understand why people really like his nocturne interpretations. I have his Liszt TE's and for many they don't have the bravura approach that we expect of this fine set of Etudes. The likes of Gekic, Cziffra and Ovchinikov have produced outstanding recordings of this ouevre with all the flash and crash required. But when I listen to Arrau's 'Harmonies du Soir' I know that he plumbed the musical depths that little bit further than any of them. Maybe this is what others hear in his Chopin Nocturne set.
Absolutely! I know that he thought very highly of the Nocturnes and his playing coveys this fact.
Post by: Herman on April 21, 2010, 03:05:52 AM
Why don't you try to get hold of some really good recordings and listen to Op 28 in its entirety? You could even start with Argerich (whom I don't like), or Cortot (who's great), or Arrau.
Post by: MichaelRabin on April 21, 2010, 05:22:10 AM
Post by: abidoful on April 21, 2010, 11:51:31 AM
So, to conclude, in the Preludes you like Argerich, whoxe recording you haven't heard, and Pogorelich, of whom you have heard only some excerpts, and Cortot - but not all of them.(Thank's for your sympathetic comments.......)
Why don't you try to get hold of some really good recordings and listen to Op 28 in its entirety? You could even start with Argerich (whom I don't like), or Cortot (who's great), or Arrau.
Post by: james66 on April 21, 2010, 08:50:39 PM
There's a 6-cd set from EMI of Chopin's piano works (performers like Ohlssohn, Gavrilov, Arrau etc) that's going pretty cheap. Is it worth getting? I know little of Chopin's output and am trying to remedy that situation. Thanks in advance.
Post by: George on April 22, 2010, 02:10:14 AM
There's a 6-cd set from EMI of Chopin's piano works (performers like Ohlssohn, Gavrilov, Arrau etc) that's going pretty cheap. Is it worth getting? I know little of Chopin's output and am trying to remedy that situation. Thanks in advance.
Do you have a link to that set?
Post by: kishnevi on April 22, 2010, 05:30:14 AM
There's a 6-cd set from EMI of Chopin's piano works (performers like Ohlssohn, Gavrilov, Arrau etc) that's going pretty cheap. Is it worth getting? I know little of Chopin's output and am trying to remedy that situation. Thanks in advance.
Is this the one you mean? Obviously more than 6CDs
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12621
I have the Ohlsson concertos and Smith mazurkas, and agree with that part of the review, at least.
Post by: George on April 22, 2010, 06:35:04 AM
There's a 6-cd set from EMI of Chopin's piano works (performers like Ohlssohn, Gavrilov, Arrau etc) that's going pretty cheap. Is it worth getting? I know little of Chopin's output and am trying to remedy that situation. Thanks in advance.
Any reason you are going the box set route? I don't think it's the best way to collect Chopin.
That said, if you must get a box, I suggest getting the Askenazy one on Decca.
If you decide to go for individual CDs, I may have one or two duplicates that I could sell you for cheap. Just send me a PM.
Post by: Mandryka on April 22, 2010, 06:48:41 AM
There's a 6-cd set from EMI of Chopin's piano works (performers like Ohlssohn, Gavrilov, Arrau etc) that's going pretty cheap. Is it worth getting? I know little of Chopin's output and am trying to remedy that situation. Thanks in advance.
If you don't know much Chopin get your self a really outstanding recording.
There's an Italian Radio DVD from Michelangeli on Opus Arte which I always recommend to people who want to get to know Chopin's music better.
Or if you don't mind old records, the two boxes of transfers on the Andante label are very good.
Post by: james66 on April 23, 2010, 01:03:57 AM
Thanks for the replies, guys. Yep, that's most probably the set in the classicstoday link. Interesting review. I don't always agree with Jed Distler. If by workaday (Ohlssohn), he means non-romantic and straightforward, I may like it. I might get the set, if only as a starter on Chopin. I do have the full nocturnes by Bart Van Oort on period pianos, which I really enjoy (I bought if more for the instruments used). Thanks again, guys.
Post by: Clever Hans on April 24, 2010, 11:08:04 AM
http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Nocturnes-Frédéric-François/dp/B002XDFOHG
Post by: Mandryka on April 24, 2010, 11:17:14 AM
POLONAISE-FANTAISIE- don't know a completely satisfactory one: (
Prompted by your remark I listened to a few today. Richter (“Authorised”) and Rubinstein (50s mono) were both pretty good.. But the performance I enjoyed the most was from Alexis Weissenberg (EMI)
This piece is full of contrasts – there are melting soft passages and more rhythmically incisive bits. I thought that sometimes Weissenberg played with the most touching humanity and with beautiful colours. And at other times he was harder toned, more monochromatic. Despite this variety, he bites the whole piece off at once. It’s a unified, integrated performance
And he moves the music forward really well – it never flounders.
Anyway, FWIW I like AW in this. More than Richter and Rubinstein this time round.
Post by: George on April 24, 2010, 11:41:11 AM
Anyone heard this?
http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Nocturnes-Frédéric-François/dp/B002XDFOHG
Yes, I didn't much like it.
Post by: Clever Hans on April 24, 2010, 12:15:47 PM
Yes, I didn't much like it.
Seems pretty straight, but not boring. I like Moravec and Arrau more than Rubinstein, that's for sure.
Post by: abidoful on April 24, 2010, 12:35:27 PM
Prompted by your remark I listened to a few today. Richter (“Authorised”) and Rubinstein (50s mono) were both pretty good.. But the performance I enjoyed the most was from Alexis Weissenberg (EMI)
This piece is full of contrasts – there are melting soft passages and more rhythmically incisive bits. I thought that sometimes Weissenberg played with the most touching humanity and with beautiful colours. And at other times he was harder toned, more monochromatic. Despite this variety, he bites the whole piece off at once. It’s a unified, integrated performance
And he moves the music forward really well – it never flounders.
Anyway, FWIW I like AW in this. More than Richter and Rubinstein this time round.
I have to check that Weissenberg. Well, it is an complicated and elusive work. I love Rubinstein but sometimes he's little "sloppy" intrepetationally. I only have this feeling (funny) with works that I myself study (actually that's not so funny- i mean it's quite natural). Like the Barcarolle for instance; I feel that sometimes Cortot just "hits" it, he had a profound understanding of that work ( but the sound quality - an inferior recording thechnique or something- isn't so good so the listening experience just suffer's from that a little).
Post by: Drasko on April 24, 2010, 01:20:34 PM
POLONAISE-FANTAISIE- don't know a completely satisfactory one: (
Try Sokolov and Moravec.
Post by: Mandryka on April 24, 2010, 09:10:39 PM
He's on youtube playing them -- but where is the CD?
Post by: Mandryka on April 24, 2010, 09:57:11 PM
I have to check that Weissenberg. Well, it is an complicated and elusive work. I love Rubinstein but sometimes he's little "sloppy" intrepetationally. I only have this feeling (funny) with works that I myself study (actually that's not so funny- i mean it's quite natural). Like the Barcarolle for instance; I feel that sometimes Cortot just "hits" it, he had a profound understanding of that work ( but the sound quality - an inferior recording thechnique or something- isn't so good so the listening experience just suffer's from that a little).
I had completely forgotten that Cortot had recorded it.
I have the 1947 recording on APR. Words like "hallucinatory" and "psychedelic" come to mind -- I think Daniel Barenboim said something like "Cortot seeks out the opium in the music", and listening to this you can see what he was getting at.
Thanks for reminding me about it.
Post by: abidoful on April 25, 2010, 11:39:19 AM
I had completely forgotten that Cortot had recorded it.No problem :) I listened the Richter POLONAISE- FANTAISIE on YouTube and few other; Neuhaus, Roberto Poli and Cortot, couldn't find the Weissenberg... I liked the Richter less, Cortot and Neuhaus most. Both had some very good passges but still fell short in some respects ::) Here few point's in regards on intrepetation;
Thanks for reminding me about it.
- it begins Allegro Maestoso right from the start so the tempo character shodl be clear there
- the section of the B-Major section has three-part writing, that should come clear so that the bass and the upper voice should be strongest and the middle voices lighter
- the penultimate page repeats thatmusic but only fuller and shouldn't be all just messy a la Skrjabin
Post by: Ahasver on April 29, 2010, 06:25:48 AM
Your comments are welcomed :)
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 29, 2010, 08:06:52 AM
Quote
Advice & comments! Reading the current issue of Fanfare (May-June 2010) and the recording below was of great interest:
Chopin - Ballades et al w/ Nelson Goerner on a period piano (Pleyel instrument built in Paris in 1848) - recorded on the Polish Fryderyk Chopin Institute label (apparently being devoted to recording all of his works) - I've not heard of this pianist nor the label - any comments, recommendations, etc? Thanks all - :D
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31mirAfPnrL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Post by: Drasko on April 29, 2010, 09:03:51 AM
Put the quoted post below in another Chopin thread which apparently does not get much action, so repeated here for comments - thanks:
You can listen online to every single track in full from all of their discs at Fryderyk Chopin Institute website, so you can decide for yourself whether you like it or not. Here is Goerner's Ballades (click on title of track, in red on right side of screen):
http://en.chopin.nifc.pl/institute/publications/musics/id/303
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 29, 2010, 09:14:31 AM
You can listen online to every single track in full from all of their discs at Fryderyk Chopin Institute website, so you can decide for yourself whether you like it or not. Here is Goerner's Ballades (click on title of track, in red on right side of screen):
http://en.chopin.nifc.pl/institute/publications/musics/id/303
Excellent find, Drasko! I knew that site, but I was not aware about the music online. Thank you very much. :)
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 29, 2010, 10:47:22 AM
You can listen online to every single track in full from all of their discs at Fryderyk Chopin Institute website, so you can decide for yourself whether you like it or not. Here is Goerner's Ballades (click on title of track, in red on right side of screen):
http://en.chopin.nifc.pl/institute/publications/musics/id/303
Milos - great link above! Thanks - I listened to several of the Ballades on my office computer speakers (crappy sound) and was still impressed w/ the performances. Currently, my only recording of those works is w/ Zimerman, so I may just put the Goerner disc on my wish list! Dave :)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 29, 2010, 04:44:17 PM
(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/8505/chopinr.jpg)
About this release:
- In celebration of the Chopin-year 2010
- The young Chopin, a child prodigy if ever there was one, soon found his surroundings in his native Warsaw too narrow, and visited the cultural capital Vienna during the years 1829-1831. Here he met the local piano manufacturer Conrad Graf and was seduced by his instruments, with their light action and delicate, pliant sound. His triumphal concerts in Vienna were played on Graf's pianos, and the young Fryderick was presented one as a gift by Graf himself.
- This disc presents works of Chopin written in his Vienna period, and here they are played on exactly such an instrument, as is still preserved in the Italian Palazzo Contucci in Montepulciano.
- The extensive booklet supplies historical background, pictures, illustrations and photos.
- Costantino Mastroprimiano already recorded extensively for Brilliant Classics: the complete keyboard music of Clementi, highly praised by international critics.
Tracklisting:
1. Polonaise in A Flat Major (dedicated to Zywny) (1821) 04:07
2. Rondò in C minor, Op. 1 (1825) 09:15
3. Mazurka in G major (1825-26) 01:05
4. Mazurka in B Flat Major, (1825-26) 01:33
5. Polonaise in B Flat Minor (1826) 06:19
6. Rondò à la Mazur in F major, Op. 5 (1826) 10:31
7. Polonaise in D Minor, Op. 71 (1827-29) 06:28
8. Polonaise in F Minor, Op. 71 (1827-29) 10:09
9. Polonaise in B Flat Major, Op. 71 (1827-29) 07:03
10. Polonaise in G Flat Major (1829) 08:19
11. Variations in A major “Souvenir de Paganini” (1829) 03:52
12. “Casta Diva” from V. Bellini's “Norma” (transcription for P. Viardot) 03:04
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 29, 2010, 05:03:41 PM
I would like to check out this disc:
(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/8505/chopinr.jpg)
About this release:
- In celebration of the Chopin-year 2010
- The young Chopin, a child prodigy if ever there was one, soon found his surroundings in his native Warsaw too narrow, and visited the cultural capital Vienna during the years 1829-1831. Here he met the local piano manufacturer Conrad Graf and was seduced by his instruments, with their light action and delicate, pliant sound. His triumphal concerts in Vienna were played on Graf's pianos, and the young Fryderick was presented one as a gift by Graf himself.
- This disc presents works of Chopin written in his Vienna period, and here they are played on exactly such an instrument, as is still preserved in the Italian Palazzo Contucci in Montepulciano.
- The extensive booklet supplies historical background, pictures, illustrations and photos.
- Costantino already recorded extensively for Brilliant Classics: the complete keyboard music of Clementi, highly praised by international critics.
Tracklisting
1. Polonaise in A Flat Major (dedicated to Zywny) (1821) 04:07
2. Rondò in C minor, Op. 1 (1825) 09:15
3. Mazurka in G major (1825-26) 01:05
4. Mazurka in B Flat Major, (1825-26) 01:33
5. Polonaise in B Flat Minor (1826) 06:19
6. Rondò à la Mazur in F major, Op. 5 (1826) 10:31
7. Polonaise in D Minor, Op. 71 (1827-29) 06:28
8. Polonaise in F Minor, Op. 71 (1827-29) 10:09
9. Polonaise in B Flat Major, Op. 71 (1827-29) 07:03
10. Polonaise in G Flat Major (1829) 08:19
11. Variations in A major “Souvenir de Paganini” (1829) 03:52
12. “Casta Diva” from V. Bellini's “Norma” (transcription for P. Viardot) 03:04
Antoine - I have this performer in a lot of Clementi, but relative to Chopin, I was interested in the Ballades - did Mastroprimiano do other Chopin works? Have not check yet - Dave :)
P.S. - boy, Chopin born in 1810 - will see a LOT of offerings about this time! :D
Post by: Que on April 29, 2010, 11:22:49 PM
I would like to check out this disc:
Very interesting ineed! :) Mastroprimiano's Clementi is excellent, and I have a very soft spot for Graf fortepianos.
The Chopin Institute's period instruments series, seems so far to me just that: period instruments but little historically informed performances - modern pianism on old instruments... :-\ Could Brilliant fill the gap? :)
Q
Post by: abidoful on April 30, 2010, 12:45:36 AM
I would like to check out this disc:Now THAT'S an interesting disc!!! (never heard the casta diva transcription- only that he made one).
(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/8505/chopinr.jpg)
About this release:
- In celebration of the Chopin-year 2010
- The young Chopin, a child prodigy if ever there was one, soon found his surroundings in his native Warsaw too narrow, and visited the cultural capital Vienna during the years 1829-1831. Here he met the local piano manufacturer Conrad Graf and was seduced by his instruments, with their light action and delicate, pliant sound. His triumphal concerts in Vienna were played on Graf's pianos, and the young Fryderick was presented one as a gift by Graf himself.
- This disc presents works of Chopin written in his Vienna period, and here they are played on exactly such an instrument, as is still preserved in the Italian Palazzo Contucci in Montepulciano.
- The extensive booklet supplies historical background, pictures, illustrations and photos.
- Costantino Mastroprimiano already recorded extensively for Brilliant Classics: the complete keyboard music of Clementi, highly praised by international critics.
Tracklisting:
1. Polonaise in A Flat Major (dedicated to Zywny) (1821) 04:07
2. Rondò in C minor, Op. 1 (1825) 09:15
3. Mazurka in G major (1825-26) 01:05
4. Mazurka in B Flat Major, (1825-26) 01:33
5. Polonaise in B Flat Minor (1826) 06:19
6. Rondò à la Mazur in F major, Op. 5 (1826) 10:31
7. Polonaise in D Minor, Op. 71 (1827-29) 06:28
8. Polonaise in F Minor, Op. 71 (1827-29) 10:09
9. Polonaise in B Flat Major, Op. 71 (1827-29) 07:03
10. Polonaise in G Flat Major (1829) 08:19
11. Variations in A major “Souvenir de Paganini” (1829) 03:52
12. “Casta Diva” from V. Bellini's “Norma” (transcription for P. Viardot) 03:04
Post by: james66 on April 30, 2010, 02:29:25 AM
You can listen online to every single track in full from all of their discs at Fryderyk Chopin Institute website, so you can decide for yourself whether you like it or not. Here is Goerner's Ballades (click on title of track, in red on right side of screen):
http://en.chopin.nifc.pl/institute/publications/musics/id/303
Thanks for the link, this is superb playing on a gorgeous-sounding instrument! Tried a few other samples from other CDs. Chopin sounds wonderful on period pianos.
Post by: Mandryka on May 17, 2010, 10:55:42 AM
One interesting thing was the strength of Sofronitsky’s performance – something to do with his rhythmic sense, and his grasp of the musical gestures. I can’t really explain it, but I thought it was wonderful.
Weissenberg was good too – very humane in the more lyrical music. And, of course, at times almost frighteningly dramatic. I think Weissenberg’s nocturnes are really underrated.
I liked the early Rubinstein one too. Energetic, like Sofronotsky he seems to understand Chopin’s gestures so well. The performance is completely integrated -- he bites it off in one mouthful.
The 50s one seemed stiffer. Much less successful I thought.
Pletnev I need to hear more often – slow, obviously personal. I don't know why, but it hasn't gotten under my skin like some of the others. I am not so convinced that the 1942 Gilels is such an interesting recording. But maybe I have missed something—I know it has advocates.
Post by: George on May 17, 2010, 11:47:02 AM
Post by: Mandryka on June 09, 2010, 08:33:56 PM
It comes from a period when Sofronitsky's Chopin style was rather austere. But the drama of the music making is unbelievable.
The mazurka set seems to me to be a real summit of Chopin playing. Same for the Waltzes.
Sound quality is excellent by anyones's standards.
Post by: Verena on June 09, 2010, 09:22:44 PM
Quote
I can't recommend this recording too enthusiastically.
It comes from a period when Sofronitsky's Chopin style was rather austere. But the drama of the music making is unbelievable.
The mazurka set seems to me to be a real summit of Chopin playing. Same for the Waltzes.
Sound quality is excellent by anyones's standards.
Mandryka, can you give details please? Which label?
Post by: George on June 09, 2010, 09:27:00 PM
Mandryka, can you give details please? Which label?
Seconded. From the image, it appears that its a VHS. ;D
Post by: Mandryka on June 10, 2010, 06:07:49 AM
It's on Classound -- here
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SOFRONITSKY-Chopin-Polon-Waltzes-Mazurkas-CD-RUS-NEW-/350360652997?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Music_CDs&hash=item51931f4cc5
Post by: Verena on June 10, 2010, 06:44:24 AM
Quote
Sorry (I made the post early in the morning.)
It's on Classound -- here
Thanks!
Post by: George on June 10, 2010, 07:20:37 AM
Sorry (I made the post early in the morning.)
It's on Classound -- here
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SOFRONITSKY-Chopin-Polon-Waltzes-Mazurkas-CD-RUS-NEW-/350360652997?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Music_CDs&hash=item51931f4cc5
Ordered. Thanks! $:)
Post by: cosmicj on June 10, 2010, 07:24:04 AM
Post by: ccar on June 13, 2010, 10:18:09 AM
I can't recommend this recording too enthusiastically.Being a long time fan of Sofronitsky and collecting most of his recordings, I still remember how difficult it was to get them outside Russia. Nowadays, Sofronitsky is widely regarded as one of the major piano interpreters of the last century and we are fortunate to have many of his recordings more easily available. But with the profusion of editions and deficient information on the recording sources it is also more challenging to avoid overlaps.
It comes from a period when Sofronitsky's Chopin style was rather austere. But the drama of the music making is unbelievable.
The mazurka set seems to me to be a real summit of Chopin playing. Same for the Waltzes.
Sound quality is excellent by anyones's standards.
The Sofronitsky Classound Chopin CD includes:
1. Polonaise in C sharp minor, op. 26 No. 1
2. Nocturne op. 27 No. 1 in C sharp minor
3. Nocturne op. 27 No. 2 in D flat major
4. Impromptu No. 4 in G flat major, op. 51
5. Barcarole in F sharp major, op. 60
6. Waltz in A flat major, op. 69 No. 1
7. Waltz in F minor, op. 70 No. 2
8. Waltz in D flat major, op. 70 No.3
Mazurkas
9. in C sharp minor, op. 41 No. 1
10. in E minor, op. 41 No. 2
11. in F minor, op. 63 No. 2
12. in C major, op. 33 No. 3
13. in B minor, op. 33 No. 4
14. in F minor, op. 68 No. 4
15. in B minor, op. 30 No. 2
16. in D flat major, op. 30 No. 3
17. in C sharp minor, op. 30 No. 4
18. in C sharp minor, op. 50 No. 3
I suspect all these pieces have been previously released in other labels (Brilliant, Philips, Vista Vera, Arlecchino, Denon, ...). If the reference to 1961 as the date of some Classound tracks is true it could only mean the very last Sofronitsky's recital in January 1961, but I never saw any mention to any Chopin being recorded on this date ?? Does anyone in the forum has some better information on this?
Post by: Mandryka on June 13, 2010, 08:47:33 PM
I investigated a bit before I bought the CD and as far as I can see the Mazurkas and Waltzes are no where else. The Barcarole may well be.
The booklet which comes with the CD isn't helpful to me as it's in Russian.
Post by: ccar on June 14, 2010, 12:26:53 PM
Where did you get the idea that it's from 1961? (Did I say that somewhere?!) I think it is from 1960.
I investigated a bit before I bought the CD and as far as I can see the Mazurkas and Waltzes are no where else. The Barcarole may well be.
The booklet which comes with the CD isn't helpful to me as it's in Russian.
The possibility of a different source for the Classound Mazurkas is referred in the "Mazurka project" site. http://mazurka.org.uk/info/discography/ (http://mazurka.org.uk/info/discography/). But the 1961 date must be wrong !
I didn’t had the time to do a comparative track by track audition but the Classound programme, particularly with the same Mazurkas selection, is most probably from the January-February 1960 studio recordings. Assuming the 1960 source all this pieces were already included in other Sofronitsky editions, particularly in the Philips GPOC (in the GPOC the Chopin disc has exactly the same programme as the Classound). Most of the pieces from the 1960 sessions were also already included in the Denon (83673-4) and the Arlecchino (ARL41) series.
(http://cdn.tower.jp/zz/m/0289/028945697024.jpg)
Post by: Mandryka on June 14, 2010, 08:23:06 PM
The possibility of a different source for the Classound Mazurkas is referred in the "Mazurka project" site. http://mazurka.org.uk/info/discography/ (http://mazurka.org.uk/info/discography/). But the 1961 date must be wrong !
I didn’t had the time to do a comparative track by track audition but the Classound programme, particularly with the same Mazurkas selection, is most probably from the January-February 1960 studio recordings. Assuming the 1960 source all this pieces were already included in other Sofronitsky editions, particularly in the Philips GPOC (in the GPOC the Chopin disc has exactly the same programme as the Classound). Most of the pieces from the 1960 sessions were also already included in the Denon (83673-4) and the Arlecchino (ARL41) series.
(http://cdn.tower.jp/zz/m/0289/028945697024.jpg)
I suspect that the mazurkas are the same as the ones in his GPE -- better sound on Classound.
I just tried to compare Op 44/1 -- GPE and Classound. they are certainly very similar.
What do you think of the Barcarolle on Classound? Do you prefer it to the 1949 live Barcarolle?
Post by: ccar on June 15, 2010, 03:15:05 PM
What do you think of the Barcarolle on Classound? Do you prefer it to the 1949 live Barcarolle?
In my view, the studio 1960 has much better sound and is a more polished reading, with magnificent phrasing, colors and many wonderful details. But in the 1949 recital the sheer drive is astonishing - don't mind the sound, forget the notes and just let you be carried in an almost hallucinatory dream.
Post by: Mandryka on June 16, 2010, 08:11:32 AM
In my view, the studio 1960 has much better sound and is a more polished reading, with magnificent phrasing, colors and many wonderful details. But in the 1949 recital the sheer drive is astonishing - don't mind the sound, forget the notes and just let you be carried in an almost hallucinatory dream.
I agree completely. That 1949 Barcarolle is very special, unique, for intensity of feeling and technique.
Everything about Sofronitsky's Chopin seems to be unique, and I can imagine some listeners are offended by his style -- either in 49 or in 60.
All I can say is that people who want ravishing beauty and a singing line should go elsewhere. It's as if Sofronitsky was deliberately avoiding anything so naively seductive.
Post by: ccar on July 01, 2010, 01:36:26 PM
Some performances are very beautiful, but many may lack the kind of mediterranean folly I imagine in this piece.
But listening to Dino Ciani's progression until the final coda, we may feel we are again carried in a swift gondola ride.
(http://image.wangchao.net.cn/bt/1245723955839.jpg) (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4Le-xF08_Sc/Sae2IUlbGCI/AAAAAAAAAnM/ZSbJfCbSrj0/s400/Carlo+Naya+1816-1882-_Venezia_-_Panorama_da_S__Giorgio_e_gondola.jpg)
There are (AFAIK) 2 live recordings of the Barcarolle by Dino Ciani - November 1971 Firenze (STR10016) and December 1971 Roma (DG 457102-2 / AG 232.2). The last one has better sound.
Post by: Mandryka on July 03, 2010, 11:09:54 AM
Do you know Moiseiwitsch’s 1939 Barcarolle? If not, do try it. It’s very good. Rather better than his well known 41 one.
http://www.mediafire.com/?3wghznzdmk0
There are lots of other Barcarolles I like – Richter's one from Salzburg on Orfeo is surfused with melancholy. Also Pletnev's/ which is extremely spacious and Schumannesque (when I hear it I always think of the Schumann Fantasie.)
Post by: Drasko on July 03, 2010, 12:10:20 PM
Do you know Moiseiwitsch’s 1939 Barcarolle? If not, do try it. It’s very good. Rather better than his well known 41 one.
http://www.mediafire.com/?3wghznzdmk0
Thanks for this! Moiseiwitsch was always superb in Barcarolle. I like very much even later one from mid 50s.
Post by: ccar on July 04, 2010, 04:57:49 AM
Do you know Moiseiwitsch’s 1939 Barcarolle? If not, do try it. It’s very good. Rather better than his well known 41 one.The Naxos "Moiseiwitsch edition" - vol 13 - includes the 1939 and 1941 Barcarolle. And I think I may understand your preference. For me the 1939 is much more intimate, more poised, with exquisite details of the phrasing and colors. Benno gives the Barcarolle an extraordinary "inner" tension, without the more usual "outer" effects on volume or dynamics. And apart from the studio 1939 and 1941, there is also a very good (studio 1958 ?) GPOC Barcarolle.
But I confess I am always fascinated by the "wild" Benno Moiseiwitsch. And his live Barcarolle, included in the Pearl collection of recitals, is a completely different experience. He carries the "Barcarolle" on fire. Perhaps closer to the 1949 Sofronitsly we both commented before.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b4-URf-bL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41228MD55PL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61EA8QRVDNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Post by: Drasko on July 04, 2010, 07:45:44 AM
... there is also a very good (studio 1958 ?) GPOC Barcarolle.
19th February 1956. Moiseiwitsch GPOC volume is messy with dates.
Post by: ccar on July 04, 2010, 08:48:08 AM
19th February 1956. Moiseiwitsch GPOC volume is messy with dates.
Thanks Drasko. You're quite right.
You prompted me to check the rest of the BM GPOC Chopin programme and other dates may also be wrong.
According to Bryan Crimp's BM discography the correct dates should be:
- 19 Feb 1956 - Barcarolle, Nocturne Op.62, Ballade No.4,
- 19 & 21 Dec 1958 - Ballade No.3, Fantasie-Impromptu, Scherzo No.4, Nocturne Op.37, Scherzo No.2.
Post by: George on July 07, 2010, 03:48:46 PM
Sorry (I made the post early in the morning.)
It's on Classound -- here
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SOFRONITSKY-Chopin-Polon-Waltzes-Mazurkas-CD-RUS-NEW-/350360652997?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Music_CDs&hash=item51931f4cc5
Thanks very much for this recommendation. My copy arrived yesterday and I am enjoying it! :)
Post by: Mandryka on July 08, 2010, 10:02:26 AM
Thanks very much for this recommendation. My copy arrived yesterday and I am enjoying it! :)
I'm pleased because I know that you haven't enjoyed VVS so much before.
I suspect that the Brilliant box, Scriabin apart, doesn't show him at his best.
If you find yourself getting interested in him, try his Symphonic Etudes.
Post by: Clever Hans on July 08, 2010, 01:17:01 PM
I'm pleased because I know that you haven't enjoyed VVS so much before.
I suspect that the Brilliant box, Scriabin apart, doesn't show him at his best.
If you find yourself getting interested in him, try his Symphonic Etudes.
But the Brilliant set also has his other most famous performance of Chopin's Mazurkas ('49) and then the Preludes ('51, date correct? but same recording except clearer transfers as classound 001-024, MVT032), plus some Waltzes. Aside from the recording technology itself and the not very warm transfers, they sound pretty amazing to me, anyway.
Post by: Mandryka on July 08, 2010, 09:30:14 PM
I also saw that my favourite recordings -- the Symphonic Etudes, Schubert Impromptus, Beethoven 111 and Pastoral, 1949 Chopin Op 28, 1951 Schumann Op 17, Beethoven Op 57 from 1952 . . . aren't included.
The late mazurkas in the set -- are they the ones from 1949? If so, I think he surpassed himself in the studio recordings of Chopin mazurkas on Russian Piano School, and the ones on the Classound recording we have been discussing.
Post by: Clever Hans on July 09, 2010, 05:34:10 AM
I haven't got the set, but I know three people, all quite sophisticated listeners, who say"I have the Brilliant VVS set and I don't like VVS".
I also saw that my favourite recordings -- the Symphonic Etudes, Schubert Impromptus, Beethoven 111 and Pastoral, 1949 Chopin Op 28, 1951 Schumann Op 17, Beethoven Op 57 from 1952 . . . aren't included.
The late mazurkas in the set -- are they the ones from 1949? If so, I think he surpassed himself in the studio recordings of Chopin mazurkas on Russian Piano School, and the ones on the Classound recording we have been discussing.
Yes, the biggest lack is the '59 Symphonic Etudes on Classound and the '49 barcarolle. I will have to get the 1960 Mazurkas, then, if they are that good.
The op. 28, however, included in the brilliant set and dated 1951 is the same as in the vista vera release, dated 1949, and the Classound release (001-024, MVT032) with the yellow and gray cover. I only have the Denon Scriabin, unfortunately, so I cannot compare its Chopin "legendary" '49 Preludes with the others (must order it from Japan soon). I would guess the '49 Denon Chopin Preludes is the same also, and someone got the date wrong.
In any case, I think the Brilliant set is fairly representative, although not the be-all and end-all. Still, probably best to get the individual Denon Scriabin and Chopin Releases and the classound Schumann.
Post by: ccar on July 09, 2010, 08:09:18 AM
The op. 28, however, included in the brilliant set and dated 1951 is the same as in the vista vera release, dated 1949, and the Classound release (001-024, MVT032) with the yellow and gray cover. I only have the Denon Scriabin, unfortunately, so I cannot compare its Chopin "legendary" '49 Preludes with the others (must order it from Japan soon). I would guess the '49 Denon Chopin Preludes is the same also, and someone got the date wrong.
In any case, I think the Brilliant set is fairly representative, although not the be-all and end-all. Still, probably best to get the individual Denon Scriabin and Chopin Releases and the classound Schumann.
Looking at my Sofronitsky’s recordings of the Chopin Preludes, the live set (Op.28 Preludes No. 1-24) from the 21 Nov 1949 Chopin recital (Great Hall of The Moscow Conservatory – on Chopin’s death centenary) is more easy to date.
There are other recordings of the Op.28 Preludes but these are much more difficult to confirm and date precisely:
- No. 1-23 - studio 1950 / 1953 (?) - Arlecchino (ARL95)
- No.2 & No13 – 1946 (?); No.1 – 1950 (?); No.12- 1951 (?) - Denon (83672)
On comparative timings and listening the Brilliant “edition” , Vista Vera (00118), Denon (83968) and Classound (032) they all included the same live 1949 set. If sound is an issue I would prefer the Denon and would reject the Classound (for me the sound is too filtered and compacted).
I also relistened my Arlecchino CD and the sound is quite good, suggesting it could indeed be a studio recording. The timings for each prelude are different from the 1949 set and comparing the C minor prelude on all my “editions” the Arlecchino and the “alternative” Denon 1946(?) are indeed different from the 1949. Contrary to what we may expect the Arlecchino (studio?) is quite interesting and probably with a more free rubato compared to the live 1949.
Post by: Mandryka on July 09, 2010, 09:24:35 AM
Looking at my Sofronitsky’s recordings of the Chopin Preludes, the live set (Op.28 Preludes No. 1-24) from the 21 Nov 1949 Chopin recital (Great Hall of The Moscow Conservatory – on Chopin’s death centenary) is more easy to date.
There are other recordings of the Op.28 Preludes but these are much more difficult to confirm and date precisely:
- No. 1-23 - studio 1950 / 1953 (?) - Arlecchino (ARL95)
- No.2 & No13 – 1946 (?); No.1 – 1950 (?); No.12- 1951 (?) - Denon (83672)
On comparative timings and listening the Brilliant “edition” , Vista Vera (00118), Denon (83968) and Classound (032) they all included the same live 1949 set. If sound is an issue I would prefer the Denon and would reject the Classound (for me the sound is too filtered and compacted).
I also relistened my Arlecchino CD and the sound is quite good, suggesting it could indeed be a studio recording. The timings for each prelude are different from the 1949 set and comparing the C minor prelude on all my “editions” the Arlecchino and the “alternative” Denon 1946(?) are indeed different from the 1949. Contrary to what we may expect the Arlecchino (studio?) is quite interesting and probably with a more free rubato compared to the live 1949.
On reflection I think you're right -- the preludes om Brilliant are from the 1949 concerts. My bad.
It would be great if someone would put together a VVS discography.
Post by: Maciek on July 09, 2010, 11:09:23 AM
Cross-posting: I will always, always associate the nocturne in C sharp minor (my favorite of all the nocturnes) with Wladyslaw Szpilman, aka "The Pianist"; it was the work which quite literally saved his life in the Warsaw Ghetto when he played it to a German officer who had discovered his hiding place.
Sorry, haven't been to this thread in a long while so this is a late reaction. PLUS it's a completely minor quibble not related to the thread topic. BUT I just can't stop myself:
At the point when Szpilman was found by the German officer the Warsaw Ghetto no longer existed - most of its remaining inhabitants had been expelled (to death camps) or killed in 1943. It also no longer existed in a "physical" sense. Well, as a matter of fact, since this was both after the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (1943) and the Warsaw Uprising (1944), most of Warsaw no longer existed - most buildings had been burned/destroyed. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that Szpilman was at that point hiding in the burned down ruins of a house somewhere on al. Niepodległości, quite a long way from the (then already former) ghetto.
Thank you for your attention, carry on.
Post by: rubio on July 14, 2010, 08:31:03 AM
First Jeanne-Marie Darre and her set of preludes. I have seen it highly praised somewhere (by quite reliable Amazon reviewer Hiram Gomez Pardo).
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21T7KXQ9ZJL.jpg)
And then Guiomar Novaes and her set of Nocturnes on Vox. Some has commented on bad sound.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21577A386GL.jpg)
Post by: Bulldog on July 14, 2010, 10:49:59 AM
Anybody know these two women and their Chopin?
First Jeanne-Marie Darre and her set of preludes. I have seen it highly praised somewhere (by quite reliable Amazon reviewer Hiram Gomez Pardo).
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21T7KXQ9ZJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I've had the Darre Preludes for a few years, and they are certainly excellent. However, I do find her a little lacking in passion and intensity. Sound quality is good for the time period, although a bit bass-heavy.
Post by: George on July 14, 2010, 11:49:37 AM
Anybody know these two women and their Chopin?
First Jeanne-Marie Darre and her set of preludes. I have seen it highly praised somewhere (by quite reliable Amazon reviewer Hiram Gomez Pardo).
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21T7KXQ9ZJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I had picked this one up, but hadn't heard it yet. So I popped it in and will report back.
Post by: rubio on July 15, 2010, 08:48:56 AM
I had picked this one up, but hadn't heard it yet. So I popped it in and will report back.
Looking forward to hear your comments, George! And thank you for the feeback, Bulldog.
Post by: George on July 15, 2010, 09:46:03 AM
Looking forward to hear your comments, George! And thank you for the feeback, Bulldog.
I agree with Bulldog. Not one of the best preludes, but one of the better ones. Worth the $3.99 that mine cost me.
Post by: rubio on July 15, 2010, 09:59:03 AM
I agree with Bulldog. Not one of the best preludes, but one of the better ones. Worth the $3.99 that mine cost me.
Thanks!
Post by: George on July 15, 2010, 10:40:49 AM
Thanks!
For the Preludes, I'd say get the Sokolov, download the Fiorentino (google is your friend) check out Barto and of course grab one of the earlier Cortot's, the 1926 or the 1933.
Post by: Mandryka on July 15, 2010, 10:01:09 PM
For the Preludes, I'd say get the Sokolov, download the Fiorentino (google is your friend) check out Barto and of course grab one of the earlier Cortot's, the 1926 or the 1933.
In fact, since I had a binge of listening to Op 28s earlier this year, I've come to appreciate Gilels’s preludes considerably more than Sokolov’s or even Fiorentino’s
I’m enjoying Gilels in Chopin a lot right now. most of all in the 3rd sonata. All the recordings I have heard of this music from him are excellent. Maybe the one I enjoy the most is from a 1977 recital, at the Moscow Conservatoire.
And then there are the Op 28 Preludes. Fiorentino’s. recording is astounding in some of the preludes (I’m still astonished by how he takes Op 28/2 for example.) But Gilels is, for me, more satisfying I think. The reasons: the unforced naturelness of the music making, the intensity of the concentration, the seriousness, the authentic candour of the expression, the huge glowing sonority.
Sokolov is not for me.
Post by: Coopmv on July 20, 2010, 05:12:18 PM
In fact, since I had a binge of listening to Op 28s earlier this year, I've come to appreciate Gilels’s preludes considerably more than Sokolov’s or even Fiorentino’s
I’m enjoying Gilels in Chopin a lot right now. most of all in the 3rd sonata. All the recordings I have heard of this music from him are excellent. Maybe the one I enjoy the most is from a 1977 recital, at the Moscow Conservatoire.
And then there are the Op 28 Preludes. Fiorentino’s. recording is astounding in some of the preludes (I’m still astonished by how he takes Op 28/2 for example.) But Gilels is, for me, more satisfying I think. The reasons: the unforced naturelness of the music making, the intensity of the concentration, the seriousness, the authentic candour of the expression, the huge glowing sonority.
Sokolov is not for me.
What is wrong with Sokolov?
Post by: Mandryka on July 20, 2010, 08:52:05 PM
What is wrong with Sokolov?
Thinking of particular preludes, Sokolov takes 17 so slowly he sounds stuck. And I hate Sokolov's pointless crashing chords at 1.30 and 2.20. Richter by comparison is faster, more alive, more lyrical in this. And Cortot much much much better.
I think generally Sokolov really comes a cropper in the calmer, more gentle preludes. I think Prelude 13 is a particularly awful low point.
More generally he's too slow in the slow ones for me. I lose attention! And there's not enough variety of mood -- it's all rather sombre.
Post by: George on August 06, 2010, 04:36:30 PM
New Chopin release, due out September 14, 2010. amazon link (http://www.amazon.com/Masters-Chopin/dp/B003XYL77A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1281144736&sr=8-1)
More Info Here - http://www.arbiterrecords.com/
Still waiting impatiently for Marston's Chopin release too. :-[
Post by: George on August 06, 2010, 04:37:54 PM
Still waiting impatiently for Marston's Chopin release too. :-[
More info on that - http://www.marstonrecords.com/html/future.htm
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 12, 2010, 09:19:55 AM
Chopin Ballades 1 & 2. Masterful interpretations by Gavrilov, in warm, pearly sound (unlike the fuzzy sonics given poor Pollini on the same label).
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JDvkpzsIL.jpg)
I wonder how those compare to the ones he did for EMI? (hint, hint) :)
I figured I'd answer you here George since the mods might move our discussion anyway. :)
This DG recording comes later in Gavrilov's career but I couldn't say how it compares to his earlier EMI Ballades disc since I haven't heard it.
Although I DO have Gavrilov's EMI disc of the Etudes and based on that I figured I'd pull the trigger on this DG disc, seeing as he has the requisite poetry I admire in the Etudes, though not forgetting the necessary fire and angularity that catapults Chopin into the visionary and out of the salon.
The Ballades however are of a completely different temperament than the Etudes and I wondered if Gavrilov would adjust to meet the music's requirements, but as it stands, he does. Admirably.
The poetry just oozes off the page in his renditions but not of the sappy, sentimental kind. It's a poetry drawn straight from the inner fantasy that Chopin concocts so meticulously in his music and practically demands be entered into and navigated to the fullest else the music suffers.
Gavrilov jumps right in and makes the most of what he encounters and I had a MOST enjoyable time listening to these renditions.
Sadly this disc is long OOP (probably only IN print for a mere five seconds) but to my ears fully deserves NEVER to have been allowed to go out of print at all.
First of all, as I mentioned, the sonics on this disc deserve the highest acclaim, being rich, pearly, and warm. Sadly, as I compared this disc to the Pollini disc of Ballades I nearly fainted as a disc recorded seven years later than the Gavrilov suffered from scratchy, fuzzy sonics and did zero justice to what sounds to me like committed performances by Pollini.
But as Gavrilov's playing is of the visionary kind AND has committed sonics I see no reason whatsoever to bury this disc in DG's OOP vault. Criminal.
Post by: George on August 12, 2010, 10:41:59 AM
Post by: Verena on August 12, 2010, 11:18:43 AM
Quote
I figured I'd answer you here George since the mods might move our discussion anyway. :)
This DG recording comes later in Gavrilov's career but I couldn't say how it compares to his earlier EMI Ballades disc since I haven't heard it.
Although I DO have Gavrilov's EMI disc of the Etudes and based on that I figured I'd pull the trigger on this DG disc, seeing as he has the requisite poetry I admire in the Etudes, though not forgetting the necessary fire and angularity that catapults Chopin into the visionary and out of the salon.
The Ballades however are of a completely different temperament than the Etudes and I wondered if Gavrilov would adjust to meet the music's requirements, but as it stands, he does. Admirably.
The poetry just oozes off the page in his renditions but not of the sappy, sentimental kind. It's a poetry drawn straight from the inner fantasy that Chopin concocts so meticulously in his music and practically demands be entered into and navigated to the fullest else the music suffers.
Gavrilov jumps right in and makes the most of what he encounters and I had a MOST enjoyable time listening to these renditions.
Sadly this disc is long OOP (probably only IN print for a mere five seconds) but to my ears fully deserves NEVER to have been allowed to go out of print at all.
First of all, as I mentioned, the sonics on this disc deserve the highest acclaim, being rich, pearly, and warm. Sadly, as I compared this disc to the Pollini disc of Ballades I nearly fainted as a disc recorded seven years later than the Gavrilov suffered from scratchy, fuzzy sonics and did zero justice to what sounds to me like committed performances by Pollini.
But as Gavrilov's playing is of the visionary kind AND has committed sonics I see no reason whatsoever to bury this disc in DG's OOP vault. Criminal.
Thanks. Bought! 8) (amazon marketplace is a good thing ::))
Post by: George on August 12, 2010, 11:52:22 AM
This DG recording comes later in Gavrilov's career but I couldn't say how it compares to his earlier EMI Ballades disc since I haven't heard it.
The EMI has the exact same program. Maybe they are the same recordings? Mine was from 1985 and is marked DDD.
Here's the timings on my EMI CD -
Piano Sonata
6:45
6:19
8:43
1:05
Ballades
8:47
7:08
6:52
10:16
Post by: George on August 12, 2010, 12:00:17 PM
The EMI has the exact same program. Maybe they are the same recordings? Mine was from 1985 and is marked DDD.
Here's the timings on my EMI CD -
Piano Sonata
6:45
6:19
8:43
1:05
Ballades
8:47
7:08
6:52
10:16
Nope, the DG timings are different enough to suggest that they are different.
Sonata
6:57
6:32
9:13
1:08
Ballades
9:06
6:35
7:08
10:36
http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/cat/single?PRODUCT_NR=4356222
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 12, 2010, 06:58:52 PM
Nope, the DG timings are different enough to suggest that they are different.
Sonata
6:57
6:32
9:13
1:08
Ballades
9:06
6:35
7:08
10:36
http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/cat/single?PRODUCT_NR=4356222
They're different but why Gavrilov would re-record the exact same works separated by only six years is a mystery to me.
A Gramophone review (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/June%201992/66/834289/Op.+35.+Four+Ballades.+Andrei+Gavrilov+%28p1%29.) helped clear up the issue of dates.
Post by: George on August 12, 2010, 07:06:25 PM
They're different but why Gavrilov would re-record the exact same works separated by only six years is a mystery to me.
(http://cdn.pastemagazine.com/www/blogs/playlist/money%20large.jpg?1239964072)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 12, 2010, 07:14:38 PM
(http://cdn.pastemagazine.com/www/blogs/playlist/money%20large.jpg?1239964072)
Yeah, I guess EMI and DG both wanted a piece of the Gavrilov pie. ;D
For a time he seemed to be in demand on record but lately that's changed. Who knows why. I've read he can be temperamental (don't remember where I read that, though, or the context) so maybe that factors in.
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 12, 2010, 07:15:33 PM
Thanks. Bought! 8) (amazon marketplace is a good thing ::))
Hope it works out for you...
Post by: Verena on August 12, 2010, 10:48:04 PM
Quote
Hope it works out for you...I'll report back once I have the CD..
Post by: George on August 30, 2010, 10:37:00 AM
Just listened to the Ballades from this set. His technique is impressive and he plays with a fair amount of poetry. This is solid Chopin playing, characterized by a minimum of rubato and wide dynamic range. The climaxes are big and bold, with plenty of fireworks, though not over the top. The EMI sound is very good for its age, producing a full piano sound.
Post by: Coopmv on August 30, 2010, 04:04:20 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uEhlimfKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Just listened to the Ballades from this set. His technique is impressive and he plays with a fair amount of poetry. This is solid Chopin playing, characterized by a minimum of rubato and wide dynamic range. The climaxes are big and bold, with plenty of fireworks, though not over the top. The EMI sound is very good for its age, producing a full piano sound.
OOP?
Post by: George on August 30, 2010, 04:09:42 PM
OOP?
Not sure, I bought mine in a used shop.
Post by: Drasko on August 31, 2010, 05:32:10 AM
(http://en.chopin.nifc.pl/=files/foto/5/1689/o/4776013.jpg)
Quote
Archival recording of the recital of Raul Koczalski which took place on February 21, 1948 in the Pompeian Room of the Belvedere on the occasion of the 138th anniversary of Fryderyk Chopin's birthday.
Raul Koczalski was the student of Chopin's pupil Karol Mikuli. He devoted his entire artistic life to Fryderyk Chopin and considered himself an heir to the Chopin tradition, handed down to him by Mikuli. He left many recordings of Chopin, Bach, Mozart, Liszt, Paderewski, Schumann and his own.
The recordings are unique due to sound of "Chopin" Pleyel piano from 1847.
Clips can be auditioned at jpc. It seems there is announcement for each piece, which sounds annoying, but the opening of op.7/1 mazurka (track 3) is really nice.
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Frederic-Chopin-Klavierwerke/hnum/3479408
Post by: George on August 31, 2010, 06:26:23 AM
New release from Chopin Institute looks interesting
Clips can be auditioned at jpc. It seems there is announcement for each piece, which sounds annoying, but the opening of op.7/1 mazurka (track 3) is really nice.
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Frederic-Chopin-Klavierwerke/hnum/3479408
Yes, I am a big fan of Koczalski. Marston Records plans to release all of his recordings, as they did for Hofmann. Volume one is due in November.
Post by: Drasko on August 31, 2010, 07:09:05 AM
http://selenemusic.com/eng/?id=cd&go=lista&kat=1
actually one of those three volumes supposedly in print has the same recital as the Chopin Institute disc.
http://selenemusic.com/eng/?id=cd&go=pokaz&ad=21
Post by: George on August 31, 2010, 07:21:33 AM
Post by: Herman on August 31, 2010, 10:28:00 PM
I like Koczalski as well, at least judging by the Chopin disc on Pearl which is the only thing I have. Polish label Selene released seven or eight volumes devoted to Kozcalski, though only three are in print according to their website. Tony had bunch of them, I never heard any.
http://selenemusic.com/eng/?id=cd&go=lista&kat=1
actually one of those three volumes supposedly in print has the same recital as the Chopin Institute disc.
http://selenemusic.com/eng/?id=cd&go=pokaz&ad=21
Tony graciously gave me a bunch of duplicates of those Selene discs.
And I think you can listen to those Chopin Institute recordings on their website.
Post by: Drasko on September 01, 2010, 07:24:31 AM
And I think you can listen to those Chopin Institute recordings on their website.
I'm aware of that, but this particular one isn't offered for streaming, for some reason.
http://en.chopin.nifc.pl/institute/publications/musics/id/1689
Post by: Mandryka on September 07, 2010, 09:28:08 AM
Some pretty good musicians have played these – the playlist included Cortot, Rachmaninov, Michelangeli, Sofronitsky and others.
It’s interesting to compare Cortot and Rachmaninov in 62/1. Rachmaninov more charming, joyful but avoiding corniness. Cortot deeper, whatever that means (Very well transferred on APR by the way.) So much is no surprise.
Katsaris was in the bunch. How boring he sounds in this company! At least in the Op 69s, he’s not interesting at all. That’s no surprise either.
But what is surprising maybe was how well Weissenberg sounded, despite the total unbelievable eccentricity of the reading. Weissenberg’s Chopin always confounds expectations, never more so than here. But if you’ve got an open mind it’s very interesting and stimulating music making.
But the pianist who made me go slightly damp eyed was Elissio Wirssaladze in Op 69/1. And that is a surprise for me, because I had always slightly sidelined her Chopin, But I was wrong to do that I think, certainly judging by this little waltz. Michelangeli had that quality too. ABM is achingly beautiful if ever so slightly sentimental. But what he lacked, and what Wirssaldaze had, was spontaneity.
And spontaneity is the most important thing I think.
Post by: George on September 07, 2010, 10:15:09 AM
Cortot deeper, whatever that means (Very well transferred on APR by the way.) So much is no surprise.
Cortot on APR? Tell me more. Oh - those late recordings?
Post by: Verena on September 07, 2010, 10:27:54 AM
But the pianist who made me go slightly damp eyed was Elissio Wirssaladze in Op 69/1. And that is a surprise for me, because I had always slightly sidelined her Chopin, But I was wrong to do that I think, certainly judging by this little waltz. Michelangeli had that quality too. ABM is achingly beautiful if ever so slightly sentimental. But what he lacked, and what Wirssaldaze had, was spontaneity.
Mandryka, on which CD does she play this Waltz?
Post by: Mandryka on September 07, 2010, 10:40:24 AM
Cortot on APR? Tell me more. Oh - those late recordings?
Correct
Mandryka, on which CD does she play this Waltz?
http://www.live-classics.com/391.htm
Not a recording I have enjoyed much in the past -- hence my surprise.
I suspect it works better vertically -- one work in a playlist with other pianists, than horizontally -- just listening through.
But the essential thing is that you all get one of these so you can do this vertical listening that has been giving me so much pleasure recently
http://www.logitech.com/speakers-audio/wireless-music-systems/devices/5745
Post by: Verena on September 07, 2010, 10:50:02 AM
Mandryka, on which CD does she play this Waltz?
Thanks! Have you heard the whole CD? If so, do you like it?
Post by: Mandryka on September 07, 2010, 08:48:04 PM
Thanks! Have you heard the whole CD? If so, do you like it?
Yes I like it. She's got a real distinctive style, and it either clicks or it doesn't. She's fresh and alive and in the moment and spontaneous.
The rhythms are good, and the phrasing is alive. She's at her best in pieces where rhythm is of the essence I guess. Dances, and the Berceuse. She's not very dramatic; there's no great drama through intimate quiet passages or crashing lound bits. So she's not in your face.
For a long time her Chopin -- here and elsewhere -- just meant nothing to me. And then all of a sudden I kind of got why what she's doing is so magical.
Post by: Holden on September 07, 2010, 11:53:07 PM
Post by: Mandryka on September 08, 2010, 05:56:06 AM
You've got her complete Etudes?
Yes and I think that they are very well done. I'd forgotten about them, actually.
It's the sonata that I'm less sure about -- I should listen again.
Post by: Verena on September 08, 2010, 06:03:13 AM
You've got her complete Etudes?
Yes and I think that they are very well done. I'd forgotten about them, actually.
There are actually two recordings of the Etudes by her. A Melodyia version and a Live Classics version. I have the former, I like it, though the Etudes are not my favorite Chopin.
Post by: Mandryka on September 08, 2010, 06:36:00 AM
There are actually two recordings of the Etudes by her. A Melodyia version and a Live Classics version. I have the former, I like it, though the Etudes are not my favorite Chopin.
I have Live Classics
I wonder what the differences are.
Post by: ccar on September 08, 2010, 11:18:22 AM
There are actually two recordings of the Etudes by her. A Melodyia version and a Live Classics version. I have the former, I like it, though the Etudes are not my favorite Chopin.
I'm also very curious to Know something more about that other Melodyia version. The Live Classics was also recorded in Moscow (1985). Can you please give some more details on the recording.
Post by: Holden on September 08, 2010, 11:21:13 AM
Post by: Verena on September 08, 2010, 11:33:52 AM
I'm at work so can't access the Etudes so I'm not sure which version I've got? I suspect it's the Live Classics.
Yes, the other has not been released on CD to my knowledge. It's only on LP
Post by: Mandryka on September 26, 2010, 09:28:46 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/xbQ5ly-BPOU
Who else plays this extra bit -- which I think really enhances the music. I've checked Ciani, Fliere, Koroliov,
Barbosa, François, Wasowsky and Malcusynsky. The all leave it out. I wonder why more pianists don't play it?
By the way it turns out that the manuscript is problematic -- difficult to decipher.
Post by: abidoful on September 26, 2010, 10:34:04 AM
Michelangeli plays the Mazurka Op 68/4 differently from most people, in that he includes a few bars which you don't often hear. The bit I mean is about 2 minutes into this extract (not the best performance -- for that you need to go to the Brown Aura box)Yeah, it's a nice passage---I think some may not even know of it becouse major edeitions like Henle Urtext and Paderewski omit it and follw an old reconstruction either by Julian Fontana or August Franchomme. But did you konow that Rubinstein did play it!
http://www.youtube.com/v/xbQ5ly-BPOU
Who else plays this extra bit -- which I think really enhances the music. I've checked Ciani, Fliere, Koroliov,
Barbosa, François, Wasowsky and Malcusynsky. The all leave it out. I wonder why more pianists don't play it?
By the way it turns out that the manuscript is problematic -- difficult to decipher.
Post by: ccar on September 28, 2010, 12:58:11 AM
Michelangeli plays the Mazurka Op 68/4 differently from most people, in that he includes a few bars which you don't often hear.
By the way it turns out that the manuscript is problematic -- difficult to decipher.
Yeah, it's a nice passage---I think some may not even know of it becouse major edeitions like Henle Urtext and Paderewski omit it and follw an old reconstruction either by Julian Fontana or August Franchomme. But did you konow that Rubinstein did play it!
There is a detailed analysis of this last Mazurka in F minor by Jeffrey Kalberg (Chopin at the Boundaries; Harvard University Press 1996). The sketch was first transcribed by Franchomme (1852) and Julian Fontana (1855) and this version was latter reproduced in many "modern" editions. But they omitted a section in F major which was indeed very difficult to decipher. In the 1950s Arthur Hedley attempted to reconstruct the missing sections of the sketch and this led some interpreters to include them in their performances - like Michelangeli or Rubinstein. But since then other different "complete" versions have also been published - Vallier, Ekier, Nowik, Smith.
Post by: Mandryka on September 29, 2010, 05:39:27 AM
The Pogorelich I've known for a while but I've only just started to enjoy it, the mazurkas especially -- but also the ballade. Of course it's challenging.
The Margulis is new to me. Very transparent textures and again a very challenging and personal interpretation -- his way of managing the voices in the Etudes make them sound very fresh. And the sonata makes me think of ABM, at least in terms of tone and clarity -- maybe not as emotional as Michelangeli.
Post by: George on September 29, 2010, 12:03:26 PM
-- maybe not as emotional as Michelangeli.
There's a phrase you don't read everyday. :D
BTW, did you read my most recent post in the Michelangeli thread? I'd be interested in your thoughts.
Post by: Mandryka on September 30, 2010, 05:58:07 AM
There's a phrase you don't read everyday. :D
Because people think of ABM as cold ?
I must say, when I wrote that I was thinking of the funeral march in the recording from Prato -- that's what I was thinking of when I was listening to the Margulis recording. ABM's treatment of the second subject there seems rather sentimental (I mean that positively), though not hystrioniacally overemotional like the Brand live version.
Same for his treatment of the Op 45 prelude.
I suspect that ABM's coldness is exaggerated -- an urban myth.
Post by: George on September 30, 2010, 06:07:28 AM
Because people think of ABM as cold ?
I'd never call him cold, though I also wouldn't say he's particularly emotional. That's why I wrote what I did about him.
Post by: Oldnslow on October 17, 2010, 06:06:07 PM
Post by: rubio on October 18, 2010, 09:34:10 AM
I have recently been listening to one of the best new recordings of Chopin I have heard in years---41 Mazurkas by Jean-Marc Luisada on RCA. The Mazurkas are my favorite Chopin and the playing and recording on this two CD set is simply wonderful. Anyone else heard this yet?
Yeah, the Luisada set could be my favourite set of mazurkas. And these pices are close to being my favourite Chopin. Some of them even sound a bit Norwegian. :)
Post by: Mandryka on October 18, 2010, 09:44:13 AM
I have recently been listening to one of the best new recordings of Chopin I have heard in years---41 Mazurkas by Jean-Marc Luisada on RCA. The Mazurkas are my favorite Chopin and the playing and recording on this two CD set is simply wonderful. Anyone else heard this yet?
Welcome to the forum Oldnslow .
Yes -- I was hoping to meet someone who had heard that Luisada set. I know the one on DG and it's pretty good, but maybe a bit too weighty sometimes for my tastes.
Have you, or Rubio, heard the old DG one? Is the Sony one an improvement?
Post by: George on October 18, 2010, 10:07:46 AM
Yeah, the Luisada set could be my favourite set of mazurkas. And these pices are close to being my favourite Chopin. Some of them even sound a bit Norwegian. :)
You like them more than the DG set?
Post by: Maciek on October 18, 2010, 10:21:26 AM
Post by: rubio on October 18, 2010, 09:12:36 PM
You like them more than the DG set?
Ouch, I didn't notice. It's of course the DG set I have and cherish :). I have not heard the RCA set.
Post by: Oldnslow on October 18, 2010, 09:21:22 PM
Post by: Mandryka on November 12, 2010, 10:43:44 PM
Listening to the playlist of Op 27/1s it became clear to me that Moravec's. Cortot's and Sofronitsky's (1960) recordings dwarfed all the others.
There were lots of other absolutely fabulous pianists - Weissenberg and Van Oort for example - but they appeared a bit inferior in the shadow of these two. And others, like Runbinstein (1930s), Wirssaladze , Pollini, Godowsky, just seem to be beautiful note spinners with nothing important to say at all.
Ciani's recording on DG just may be a third way. His style is not unlike Sofronitsky -- I'd be surprised if he wasn't influenced by Sofronitsky's late style in Chopin. I'll certainly be listening carefully to that Ciani Op 27/1 sometime in the future.
Of course there's a fourth category: the ones I never want to hear again because they trivialise the thing beyond recognition: Bolet (on Marston) , and Boegner I'm afraid.
Anyway - that's what I thought when I listened to a whole bunch of them recently.
In Opus 62/2 the the alpha-pianist was Pletnev.
In Pletnev's recording , there's no shortage of lyricism, but there's also a feeling of ambiguity: sometimes the left hand is given as much prominence as the right. And for me that makes for a more interesting listening experience, if a more challenging one.
Moiseiwitsch recorded this nocturne too -- he's polished, deeply felt, very much in the traditional schemas of soothing night music in the form of melody with accompaniment.
I get bored with both those schemas very quickly.
I quite liked Ciani and Weissenberg too in this.
But I also can't help thinking that this nocturne is not quite as successful as the one that comes before it. There's less going on in it to stimulate the brain maybe, though it is no doubt beautiful.
Post by: Herman on November 13, 2010, 08:26:48 AM
What's the provenance of yours, if I may ask?
Post by: Mandryka on November 13, 2010, 08:46:32 AM
I have Sofronitsky in 27/2, but not in 27/1.
What's the provenance of yours, if I may ask?
This one Herman:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Frederic-Chopin-Preludes-Nocturnes-Sofronitsky/dp/B000RH86HK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1289666639&sr=8-2
Post by: George on November 13, 2010, 09:41:05 AM
This one Herman:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Frederic-Chopin-Preludes-Nocturnes-Sofronitsky/dp/B000RH86HK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1289666639&sr=8-2
Can you post the dates for those recordings, please?
Post by: Mandryka on November 13, 2010, 11:05:57 AM
Can you post the dates for those recordings, please?
1960 -- January or February. :-*
Post by: George on November 13, 2010, 11:28:28 AM
1960 -- January or February. :-*
Thanks. I just wanted to make sure they were different than the ones in the Brilliant box, which they are.
Post by: ccar on November 14, 2010, 01:13:05 PM
Listening to the playlist of Op 27/1s it became clear to me that Moravec's, Cortot's and Sofronitsky's (1960) recordings dwarfed all the others.
Prompted by Mandryka’s comments on a previous post, I went into relistening to a few recordings of the C sharp minor Nocturne Op.27/1. Cortot described it as Chopin’s most accomplished and fervent dream for the piano. It is one of the most famous Nocturnes and many pianists record it, even outside the complete set.
Before listening to a few recordings I tried to be helped by a quick look at the music sheet. I am not a musician and I don’t pretend to do any serious music analysis. But I feel that if I get my own basic reading of a piece it helps me to discover more interesting details and possibilities in the various interpretations I look to. In this Nocturne, the beginning Larghetto introduces a longing and soft melancholic singing motif, with repeating left hand chords in contrast with beautiful agogic notes on the right, producing an almost hypnotic or remembering atmosphere. This motif is then reintroduced, perhaps in a less restful way, preparing the contrasting second motif. This second part motif is marked Più mosso and builds in a crescendo of passionate agitation, almost like a dream that suddenly turned into a nightmare. The initial tension apparently resolves into a quick valse-like motif but follows by a repeated dramatic climax. In the third and final part, in Tempo primo, the initial lyric and resting motif returns.
My personal interests in this Nocturne are to discover how each pianist depicts the atmosphere, the color or character of each motif, how they mold Chopin’s wonderful transitions between the parts and particularly how they get from this miniature the sense of a complete dramatic episode. And at the end of each listening, at least with the more magical interpreters, I also hope for the illusion of being touched by that small mystery.
In this wandering spirit I first relistened two of the top suggestions of Mandryka - Sofronitsky and Moravec. Sofronitsky is one of the great giants of the piano and many of us also regard Moravec as one of the most inspiring artists of his generation. Listening and comparing their readings of the Op. 27/1 Nocturne was very rewarding. But how apart are the worlds of these two artists. For me it exemplifies brilliantly, once again, how the same piece can (must?) be given in so many rich but different and complementary ways. And how limited are the common judgments of the “best recordings” or the “right and wrong way” of playing, being it Chopin or whatever.
In Moravec's the first motif is stated with the most profound intimacy and fragility. The right hand notes seem almost suspended and the left chords add like a continuous floating tone, giving the piece a wonderful misty atmosphere. In the initial reintroduction of the first motif there is a first hint of tension and its singing character is more clearly defined. The second motif is presented in the same dreamy atmosphere but the tension is then slowly apparent, not by dynamic or color effects but by a brilliantly defined rhythmic progression and phrasing that builds the first 2 dramatic climaxes of the second part. The transition to the Tempo primo is completely natural and this last part is given as a beautiful hymn-like conclusion.
Nothing could be more different from Moravec than Sofronitsky. With Sofronitsky the dramatic tension of the piece is immediately anticipated. When his right hand sounds the first notes there is an instant painful poignancy that sets the tone of the whole piece. And those left hand chords seem so much more unpredictable and disconnected, adding to that right hand lyric theme an even more aching unsettledness. With Sofronitsky there is never any sweetness in that first motif introduction. But then, curiously, the first motif reintroduction is much more restful, and it creates an even more intense contrast with the tension of the following second part motif. Sofronitsky uses a right hand rubato to magnify the beginning of the dramatic crescendo of the second motif introduction and then builds it into the first passionate climax using full tones to create a myriad of expressionist colors. The valse-like motif is immersed in a torrent of piano sound and just prepares a second strong dramatic climax in the end of that middle part. He resolves it into an almost unnoticed transition to the repeating first motif, as if continuing the same dramatic flow into the more lyric first theme, now given as a dark and distant solemn epilogue.
Going to the shelves I had the joy of listening this Nocturne played by quite a few pianists, many already and rightly mentioned in this thread. But I also remembered some less mentioned artists who, for me, gave us beautiful readings of this piece. So, for those who venture to explore some less frequented waters, I would also suggest the recorded versions of Andrzej Wasowski (1989, Concord Concerto), Vitalij Margulis (1981, Inak) and Youra Guller (1956, Doron; 1975, Tahra).
(http://ec3.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ARQ6ZNSJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://img.youtube.com/vi/RLDH2fTjgZo/0.jpg) (http://img.youtube.com/vi/rmayKaD52LU/0.jpg)
Post by: George on November 14, 2010, 02:51:29 PM
Yesterday I listened to Sofronitsky's Chopin Scherzo from that Russian Piano School set. My goodness!! I love the way he plays the dramatic parts intensely and the relaxed parts (often right alongside the intense parts) with great depth and beauty. I don't even like the Scherzos that much, but Sofronitsky has sure sold me on them.
Post by: Verena on November 14, 2010, 03:11:28 PM
Post by: George on November 14, 2010, 03:50:07 PM
I wonder why Wasowski is not much well known. I also really like his Nocturnes and Mazurkas.
I imagine if he had been on a Major Label, he would have been very famous.
Post by: Mandryka on November 15, 2010, 01:12:17 PM
Indeed, Wasowski is great.
Yesterday I listened to Sofronitsky's Chopin Scherzo from that Russian Piano School set. My goodness!! I love the way he plays the dramatic parts intensely and the relaxed parts (often right alongside the intense parts) with great depth and beauty. I don't even like the Scherzos that much, but Sofronitsky has sure sold me on them.
Yes -- the Scherzo opus 20 is really savage. Indescribable. A real summit IMO.
Pogorelich's Scherzo CD is good I think.
Ccar mentions Margulis. I have and really like his Cd with the second sonata. Unfortunately the nocturnes Cd is pretty hard to find. But yes, I think he's an interesting and individual pianist. I have also picked up some Scriabin by him -- but I don't think I have ever played it!
I'm less convinced about Wasowski myself. He's one of the pianists who never looks so good when I do the comparative ting with my Squeezebox. The Op 27/1 sounded quite nice when I played it just now though.
Post by: George on November 28, 2010, 11:51:46 AM
Picked this one up today for $6.99 in near mint condition. I almost didn't buy it, but judging from the price on amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Nocturnes-Mazurkas-Waltzes-Frederic/dp/B00004SRG8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1290973486&sr=8-1), I am sure glad I did. :)
Post by: Philoctetes on November 29, 2010, 08:28:45 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lKoKyzWxL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Picked this one up today for $6.99 in near mint condition. I almost didn't buy it, but judging from the price on amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Nocturnes-Mazurkas-Waltzes-Frederic/dp/B00004SRG8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1290973486&sr=8-1), I am sure glad I did. :)
Plus, Alexis is a can't miss pianist.
Post by: springrite on November 29, 2010, 08:34:07 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lKoKyzWxL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Picked this one up today for $6.99 in near mint condition. I almost didn't buy it, but judging from the price on amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Nocturnes-Mazurkas-Waltzes-Frederic/dp/B00004SRG8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1290973486&sr=8-1), I am sure glad I did. :)
Good stuff, but unmistakably Slavic. ;)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 29, 2010, 08:50:50 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lKoKyzWxL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Picked this one up today for $6.99 in near mint condition. I almost didn't buy it, but judging from the price on amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Nocturnes-Mazurkas-Waltzes-Frederic/dp/B00004SRG8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1290973486&sr=8-1), I am sure glad I did. :)
(http://blogs.lanacion.com.ar/vaso-medio-lleno/files/2010/11/lupa-340x338.jpg)
;D
Post by: Mandryka on November 29, 2010, 10:10:15 AM
Surely there are some conservatives and romantics here -- we can't have a Weissenberg love in. A fight would be more interesting.
This is IMO the greatest thing he ever did. Not Chopin -- Scriabin. But can't resist posting it here. The gentleness and humanity of it is awesome
http://www.youtube.com/v/KIv2KmBOeTQ
Post by: Bogey on January 13, 2011, 06:05:24 PM
Post by: PaulSC on January 13, 2011, 06:28:41 PM
(If you use the Search field at the top right of the GMG window, when viewing a thread, the scope of the search is limited to that thread.)
Post by: Bogey on January 13, 2011, 06:39:19 PM
Post by: George on January 13, 2011, 06:44:14 PM
This is IMO the greatest thing he ever did. Not Chopin -- Scriabin. But can't resist posting it here. The gentleness and humanity of it is awesome
http://www.youtube.com/v/KIv2KmBOeTQ
Is that performance available on CD? I have the one that is in his GPOTTC set. It's slower, 6:25.
Post by: Mandryka on January 13, 2011, 11:53:06 PM
Horowitz and Sokolov recorded it. But AFAIK Richter and Sofronitsky and Feinberg and Zhukov and Pletnev didn't record it.
Post by: Bogey on January 14, 2011, 03:48:04 PM
Interesting that he retains his popularity -- I'm a fan myself, even in Chopin. He's an extreme point of view though -- just like Moravec is an extreme.
Surely there are some conservatives and romantics here -- we can't have a Weissenberg love in. A fight would be more interesting.
This is IMO the greatest thing he ever did. Not Chopin -- Scriabin. But can't resist posting it here. The gentleness and humanity of it is awesome
Just snagged a and a nice Japanese pressing of:
Chopin
Alexis Weissenberg
PC's 1 and 2
EMI/Angel
This is on vinyl.
Post by: Bogey on January 14, 2011, 11:12:43 PM
(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/AEMI_370__41562__01152009120559-5698.jpg)
Post by: George on January 15, 2011, 04:52:27 AM
Where does this one fall as far as performance is concerned?
(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/AEMI_370__41562__01152009120559-5698.jpg)
Even those who are critical of his later Chopin recordings (myself included) are fond of these recordings.
On the other hand, for sound and performance, this one is the absolute best that I have heard (you get both concertos, too):
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 15, 2011, 06:22:28 AM
Even those who are critical of his later Chopin recordings (myself included) are fond of these recordings.
On the other hand, for sound and performance, this one is the absolute best that I have heard (you get both concertos, too):
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YA0hh19%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZGJD3EKEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Hey George - I've owned the much earlier Zimerman recordings of these works and really have enjoyed over the years; I was thinking of purchasing the 'newer' release but have not - have you heard both, and if so any thoughts? Thanks - Dave :)
Post by: Bogey on January 15, 2011, 06:27:29 AM
Even those who are critical of his later Chopin recordings (myself included) are fond of these recordings.
On the other hand, for sound and performance, this one is the absolute best that I have heard (you get both concertos, too):
Yes. I have a recording of the Pollini '60 No. 1 on disc, and do enjoy it. I was just wondering where it fell in the scope of other recordings my friend and you answered my question. Thanks! :)
Post by: George on January 15, 2011, 06:29:24 AM
Hey George - I've owned the much earlier Zimerman recordings of these works and really have enjoyed over the years; I was thinking of purchasing the 'newer' release but have not - have you heard both, and if so any thoughts? Thanks - Dave :)
I have not heard both, I bought the later one and love it so much that I have no desire to get any more recordings of these works. That's how much I love it. :)
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 15, 2011, 06:39:45 AM
I have not heard both, I bought the later one and love it so much that I have no desire to get any more recordings of these works. That's how much I love it. :)
Well, I guess my feeling w/ that earlier recording which I've had for many years - the only 'new' addition of these works after reading some superlative reviews to my collection is the one below; so, I'll probably just stay happy w/ those - :D
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qPhqn7T4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 15, 2011, 06:51:49 AM
Well, I guess my feeling w/ that earlier recording which I've had for many years - the only 'new' addition of these works after reading some superlative reviews to my collection is the one below; so, I'll probably just stay happy w/ those - :D
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qPhqn7T4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
... but you don't have an interpretation on period instruments, dear Dave. Too bad! :P ;D
(http://rsindex.pictures-hosting.com/2009-12-03/000fa8d2_medium.jpeg)
8)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 15, 2011, 06:54:25 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ZHR8fL7RL._SS300_.jpg)
8)
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 15, 2011, 07:20:54 AM
... but you don't have an interpretation on period instruments, dear Dave. Too bad! :P ;D
(http://rsindex.pictures-hosting.com/2009-12-03/000fa8d2_medium.jpeg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b0I6xoMbL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Well, I was waiting for a good price on the 21-CD box (above, right) - assume that it includes those PI concertos? Currently at $82 on the Amazon MP - should I 'pull the trigger' or wait a little longer? Dave ;D
Post by: Bogey on January 15, 2011, 07:30:35 AM
Well, I was waiting for a good price on the 21-CD box (above, right) - assume that it includes those PI concertos? Currently at $82 on the Amazon MP - should I 'pull the trigger' or wait a little longer? Dave ;D
I am thinking tax refund fun, Dave....but there is my birthday in March. ;D
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 15, 2011, 07:43:53 AM
I am thinking tax refund fun, Dave....but there is my birthday in March. ;D
Good morning Bill - well, $4 a disc is pretty cheap (i.e. if you want that much Chopin - already have about 16 discs or so, but only one on a period fortepiano) - tempting (and my birthday is the following month!) - Dave :)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 15, 2011, 09:19:52 AM
Lately Evgeny Kissin has become one of my favorite interpreters of these piano concertos. His performances in the famous 1984 Moscow concert are really terrific. I don't have the original CD, but it's currently available on Brilliant Classics at least under three different aspects:
(http://static.rateyourmusic.com/album_images/3b8e48f5a9e2d4ee460813c8c57d23ed/2423131.jpg)(http://img.maniadb.com/images/album/290/290186_1_f.jpg)(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Sc_lT2loQ1s/TOqLVJIFu8I/AAAAAAAAAD8/ayEhkoUKgFs/s1600/Kissin.jpg)
It's almost incredible to listen to that 13-years-old boy to play this way, with such fire, not inferior to nobody. The only prevention: It's a Russian live recording, therefore some coughes are inevitable. Kitaenko provides a reasonable accompaniment. :)
Post by: Brian on January 15, 2011, 09:27:37 AM
(http://static.rateyourmusic.com/album_images/3b8e48f5a9e2d4ee460813c8c57d23ed/2423131.jpg)
The cover of this one reminds me of the black album in This Is Spinal Tap. :)
Post by: abidoful on January 15, 2011, 10:35:48 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZVgRNtKrL._SS300_.jpg)I'm seriously thinking of these. You may talk me over :)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ZHR8fL7RL._SS300_.jpg)
8)
Post by: abidoful on January 15, 2011, 10:41:02 AM
for sound and performance, this one is the absolute best that I have heard (you get both concertos, too):IMO these performance- no matter how polished- are seriously flawed as far as intrepetation is concerned.
Post by: Holden on January 15, 2011, 11:04:37 AM
Post by: FideLeo on January 17, 2011, 11:59:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/4YkXC0VhKII
Played on an original Erard fortepiano.
(http://cdn.tower.jp/zc/o/14/zc1646614.jpg)
Post by: FideLeo on January 18, 2011, 12:06:54 AM
Played on an original Pleyel fortepiano, obviously.
http://www.youtube.com/v/_zj1czmbrCw
Post by: Maciek on January 18, 2011, 03:24:00 PM
Hey George - I've owned the much earlier Zimerman recordings of these works and really have enjoyed over the years; I was thinking of purchasing the 'newer' release but have not - have you heard both, and if so any thoughts? Thanks - Dave :)
Dave, in his early days Zimerman actually recorded the 1st concerto twice: once with Giulini and once with Kondrashin. Anyway, I can hardly think of two recordings made by one pianist which would differ from one another more than Zimerman's "early" and "more recent" Chopin PCs. It might be worth getting the more recent recording just for the sake of hearing how completely an artist can change his approach. The difference has a lot to do with what is happening in the orchestra - the newer recording has Zimerman conducting, and the orchestra is one he personally assembled specifically for that recording - it has a very rich tone, and the music is played in an extremely "serious", almost Germanic manner (well, to my ears). In the newer recording these PCs sound at times as if they were composed by Rachmaninov (to my ears, again). The pianism is astonishing, as always with Zimerman, and there's absolutely no doubt that he is playing exactly the way he wants to be playing. Whether one likes this interpretation is a completely different matter (the newer recording is sometimes considered quite controversial).
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 18, 2011, 04:27:41 PM
Dave, in his early days Zimerman actually recorded the 1st concerto twice: once with Giulini and once with Kondrashin. Anyway, I can hardly think of two recordings made by one pianist which would differ from one another more than Zimerman's "early" and "more recent" Chopin PCs. ................................
Hi Maciek - thanks for the excellent comments in your post on the Zimerman performances; sounds like a 'night & day' difference? - though, I was surprised to see these works put on 2 CDs in the newer recording - will probably need to hear these discs! Dave :D
Post by: George on January 18, 2011, 04:31:01 PM
Hi Maciek - thanks for the excellent comments in your post on the Zimerman performances; sounds like a 'night & day' difference? - though, I was surprised to see these works put on 2 CDs in the newer recording - will probably need to hear these discs! Dave :D
FWIW, I got my copy for the price of one mid-priced CD over at amazon. Total time is 81:52, just a bit too long to fit on one CD.
Post by: Maciek on January 18, 2011, 04:33:46 PM
I was surprised to see these works put on 2 CDs in the newer recording
Yes, that should give you some idea of how different these recordings are - unlike the older Giulini set, they wouldn't fit on one disc! :o
Post by: Drasko on January 19, 2011, 02:07:21 AM
- unlike the older Giulini set, they wouldn't fit on one disc! :o
Unlike anyone to my knowledge. Something like two beached whales, each needing a beach for itself.
But for those curious enough there is recent release looking even more bizarre, Cyprien Katsaris playing with himself amongst other things:
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Piano%2B21/P21038
Post by: Que on January 19, 2011, 01:46:08 PM
From Dang Thai-Son's recent nocturne album in the Real Chopin series:
Played on an original Erard fortepiano.
(http://cdn.tower.jp/zc/o/14/zc1646614.jpg)
Surprisingly, this pussyfooting, snoozing approach does not sound like "real" Chopin to me at all... 8) Dang Thai-Son does not show much interest in using the particular possibilities of the period instrument... ::) What a waste.
The Planes' sample however, I liked much better - it actually sounds like someone he knows what to do with a period instrument! :) I need to hear more.
Spurred by these posts I had put on this recording last night - recently reissued BTW.
(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/77/1149477.jpg)
And enjoyed it rather well - Boegner has interesting things to tell about the music, though I can still imagine a (even) more commanding and daring approach. After all, there is stiff competition in this field. Michèle Boegner studied with Perlemuter BTW.
I also finally got George's earlier comments on extraneous noises - though very subtle, at high volume there are definitely some strange side noises discernible like one of the upper keys that produces a thin high pitched after-noise. I blame it on a not quite adequately prepared instrument, or one that was too closely recorded?
But never mind, this is all hardly noticeable, if for some at all, and the Pleyel sounds wonderfull - direct and "woody". I find this set very enjoyable with a genuine HIP approach that shows the dividends that can gained from a period instrument. Maybe not in the definitive category, but a set that has individual character and comes a long way.
http://www.youtube.com/v/hGmAeSuLPb0
Q
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 19, 2011, 02:34:23 PM
The Planes' sample however, I liked much better - it actually sounds like someone he knows what to do with a period instrument! :) I need to hear more.
Thanks for the comments on Boegner, Q.
I agree with you about Planes; that sample sounds enticing, but IMO the whole disc is a bit disappointing. It happens as usually with Planes; he is always so cerebral and self controlled that it's irritating... You always think: He will catch fire in the next movement or piece, but that never happens. Probably the only exception that I know is his recording of the Schubert piano sonatas, where his self-control gives some excellent results.