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The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => Topic started by: Florestan on December 31, 2018, 06:24:49 PM

Title: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Florestan on December 31, 2018, 06:24:49 PM
Just imagine, if you can, Johann Strauss I or Johann Strauss II or Josef Strauss conducting with a baton instead of a violin, the audience formally dressed, stiff and still, listening in awe as if they were listening to a Bruckner symphony / Wagner opera, waiting for being told and conducted when to applaud...

I say, claim and maintain that the Vienna PO's New Year's Concert is nothing else than the Brucknerization of the Waltz, ie an abomination.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: JBS on December 31, 2018, 07:39:48 PM
I dissent on using the term Brucknerization, but I agree on the main point.

Of course like I have done every year for some years now, I pre-ordered the 2019 recording. :P
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: david johnson on January 01, 2019, 01:12:56 AM
I'm not a violinist, but I'll hold one to get to conduct the VPO.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: vandermolen on January 01, 2019, 01:51:32 AM
The concert does not appeal at all to me. It's cheery origins can be found in the Third Reich.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: flyingdutchman on January 01, 2019, 02:18:30 AM
The concert does not appeal at all to me. It's cheery origins can be found in the Third Reich.

It has nothing to do with what it is today.  I like the concert.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: vandermolen on January 01, 2019, 03:37:40 AM
It has nothing to do with what it is today.  I like the concert.
I'm sure you're right. The music does not appeal to me. Well, only the Blue Danube and I only like that because of its associations with '2001: A Space Odyssey'  ::)
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Maestro267 on January 01, 2019, 05:30:12 AM
How did the traditional game of "How Many Women Are in the Orchestra" go?
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Brian on January 01, 2019, 06:55:02 AM
The concert does not appeal at all to me. It's cheery origins can be found in the Third Reich.
Speaking of which, my parents knew about Thielemann's political leanings and decided to switch to the Lincoln Center gala instead this holiday and give Vienna a skip.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 01, 2019, 08:57:08 AM
Speaking of which, my parents knew about Thielemann's political leanings and decided to switch to the Lincoln Center gala instead this holiday and give Vienna a skip.
Speaking of Lincoln Center and "fake", for 2 consecutive years my wife and I went to the Chinese Lunar New Year Concert. For both years it opened with Li Huan-zhi's Spring Festival Overture as if that is the only piece ever written by a Chinese person. For the 2nd year the only thing Chinese about the concert were the performers: Cho-Liang Lin performing a Beethoven (or was it Dvorak) Romance for Violin and Orchestra, a Chinese cellist performing Tchaikovsky's Rococo Variations (forget his name now), and of course the ubiquitous Yuja Wang on Rachmaninoff's Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 01, 2019, 10:05:52 AM
Just imagine, if you can, Johann Strauss I or Johann Strauss II or Josef Strauss conducting with a baton instead of a violin, the audience formally dressed, stiff and still, listening in awe as if they were listening to a Bruckner symphony / Wagner opera, waiting for being told and conducted when to applaud...

I say, claim and maintain that the Vienna PO's New Year's Concert is nothing else than the Brucknerization of the Waltz, ie an abomination.

Maazel, if I recall correctly, played the violin during his stint.

The New Years Concert strikes me as a dull event for rich old Austrian people, I couldn't imagine a more boring concert to attend. As for the Strauss Waltzes themselves, probably Andre Rieu got it right. I think I have the Decca 2fer with the Boskovsky recordings, but I don't recall ever listening to it. I have vague memories of listening to Karajan's old recording.

Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Jo498 on January 01, 2019, 10:22:18 AM
Maazel did it for a piece or two, I think. Certainly not for all pieces in his more recent appearances (I don't recall the earlier ones from the 1980s). Boskovsky conducted with the violin in hand in the 1960s, I think. I don't understand why this should matter in any way. I don't expect that a piece by Lully should nowadays be "conducted" with a stick large enought to severely hurt one's foot.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Florestan on January 01, 2019, 10:49:56 AM
Maazel did it for a piece or two, I think.

Yes, for Josef Strauss' Polka-Mazur Die Nasswalderin.

The problem is that the music they play is completely incongruous with the whole concept of a formal concert. It's meant for dance and merriment, not for being listened to in silence.

The New Years Concert strikes me as a dull event for rich old Austrian people, I couldn't imagine a more boring concert to attend. As for the Strauss Waltzes themselves, probably Andre Rieu got it right.

Precisely. Andre Rieu is much closer to the original spirit of the music, including people in the audience dancing around and singing along.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 01, 2019, 11:12:16 AM
Yes, for Josef Strauss' Polka-Mazur Die Nasswalderin.

The problem is that the music they play is completely incongruous with the whole concept of a formal concert. It's meant for dance and merriment, not for being listened to in silence.

I take for granted that the Waltzes were intended for a more informal setting, but I find it implausible that the full orchestral versions were meant for dancing. I don't have the energy to dig out a CD and read the linear notes to confirm or contradict that assumption.

 
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Florestan on January 01, 2019, 11:24:23 AM
I take for granted that the Waltzes were intended for a more informal setting, but I find it implausible that the full orchestral versions were meant for dancing.

Well, consider this: both Johann Strauss I and Johann Strauss II started their careers conducting, and composing for, rather small orchestras which played in such informal settings as casinos, parks and coffee houses. What I find implausible is that the original scoring of these compositions implied a full orchestra.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: flyingdutchman on January 01, 2019, 01:23:07 PM
All of which begs the question, then, do you consider the Strauss family compositions classical music?
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Jo498 on January 01, 2019, 01:40:23 PM
They began as dance pieces, sure. But some of them already became concert pieces in the 19th century. (Although these huge concerts like Strauss conducted in the US were certainly less formal!) Quite a few actually also had choral versions or even started out in that fashion! That's where at least some of the titles come from (The Blue Danube was actually done both orchestral and choral from the beginning). They had a few of them with the Vienna boy's choir at some earlier concerts. I found almost all of these versions extremely silly and I am happy to have purely orchestral ones.

Anyway, it is a rather futile complaint. Sure, it is a concert for rich people and politicians and it seems ridiculous in many ways. But it seems to work, still sell discs and I guess it is here to stay.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Florestan on January 02, 2019, 02:04:02 AM
All of which begs the question, then, do you consider the Strauss family compositions classical music?

Depends on what you mean by "classical music". Be it as it may, the Strausses stemmed from, and belong to, a tradition where the boundaries between art (as in "serious", "classical" music) and entertainment (as in "light", "popular" music) were not so clear cut as they are today, a tradition which includes such luminaries as Haydn, Mozart, Schubert, Brahms and Dvořák (to limit myself only to the Viennese connection).

Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Florestan on January 02, 2019, 02:05:14 AM
Anyway, it is a rather futile complaint. Sure, it is a concert for rich people and politicians and it seems ridiculous in many ways. But it seems to work, still sell discs and I guess it is here to stay.

Oh, it's not a complaint, just a comment. And I certainly wouldn't want it discontinued, I greatly enjoy the music.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: springrite on January 02, 2019, 02:09:43 AM
The concert does not appeal at all to me. It's cheery origins can be found in the Third Reich.

Well, they sure have the right conductor in this occasion.  >:D
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Florestan on January 02, 2019, 07:36:42 AM
Well, they sure have the right conductor in this occasion.  >:D

I wonder how many people who accuse Thielemann (mainly and mostly on hearsay) of being right-wing, or even worse, a Nazi in disguise, have actually read his article which provoked the whole kerfuffle. Here it is:

https://www.zeit.de/2015/04/pegida-dialog-christian-thielemann-dresdner-staatskapelle (https://www.zeit.de/2015/04/pegida-dialog-christian-thielemann-dresdner-staatskapelle)

Google Translate is your friend and does a reasonably good job.

I find nothing there that I cannot subscribe to myself.

Plus: he is often accused of having a repertoire limited to only the Austro-German music. But, by Jove, mastering this "limited" repertoire can be the job of a lifetime. And is it not amusing to see people for whom Beethoven and Bruckner are the daily bread-and-butter suddenly taking issues with someone who concentrate his efforts exactly in this direction?

As for his conducting the New Year Concert, he was certainly not the most charismatic or the funniest, but he did a decent job, not least because of coming up with no less than six premieres (the Helmesberger's Elfenreigen was my favorite).

NB: This post is not specifically addressed to you personally.

Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Jo498 on January 02, 2019, 08:41:25 AM
I am not too fond of Thielemann (neither musically nor personally) but to brand everyone who holds a few conservative positions slightly to the right of the "mainstream" (often including things that actually were centrist mainstream positions only 20 years ago) as Nazi or at least close is not only ridiculous but also dangerous and a very serious underestimation of the terror of the actual Nazis as well as some Neonazis. (It is also a serious underestimation of the actual control and manipulation perpetrated by the huge apparatuses (including but not restricted to their intelligence agencies) of the current mainstream political forces that often borders on the totalitarian. As some wise men said already in the 60s or so, one should be less afraid of the fascist in the guise of the fascist than of the one wearing the mask of the democrat.)
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Biffo on January 02, 2019, 08:56:06 AM
I wonder how many people who accuse Thielemann (mainly and mostly on hearsay) of being right-wing, or even worse, a Nazi in disguise, have actually read his article which provoked the whole kerfuffle. Here it is:

https://www.zeit.de/2015/04/pegida-dialog-christian-thielemann-dresdner-staatskapelle (https://www.zeit.de/2015/04/pegida-dialog-christian-thielemann-dresdner-staatskapelle)

Google Translate is your friend and does a reasonably good job.

I find nothing there that I cannot subscribe to myself.

Plus: he is often accused of having a repertoire limited to only the Austro-German music. But, by Jove, mastering this "limited" repertoire can be the job of a lifetime. And is it not amusing to see people for whom Beethoven and Bruckner are the daily bread-and-butter suddenly taking issues with someone who concentrate his efforts exactly in this direction?

As for his conducting the New Year Concert, he was certainly not the most charismatic or the funniest, but he did a decent job, not least because of coming up with no less than six premieres (the Helmesberger's Elfenreigen was my favorite).

NB: This post is not specifically addressed to you personally.

Thanks for the link; I haven't time to read it today but I thought it was his reference to 'the Jew Barenboim' that caused the kerfuffle.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Florestan on January 02, 2019, 09:02:53 AM
to brand everyone who holds a few conservative positions slightly to the right of the "mainstream" (often including things that actually were centrist mainstream positions only 20 years ago) as Nazi or at least close is not only ridiculous but also dangerous and a very serious underestimation of the terror of the actual Nazis as well as some Neonazis. (It is also a serious underestimation of the actual control and manipulation perpetrated by the huge apparatuses (including but not restricted to their intelligence agencies) of the current mainstream political forces that often borders on the totalitarian. As some wise men said already in the 60s or so, one should be less afraid of the fascist in the guise of the fascist than of the one wearing the mask of the democrat.)

Have we been separated at birth?  :)
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Florestan on January 02, 2019, 09:09:18 AM
Thanks for the link; I haven't time to read it today but I thought it was his reference to 'the Jew Barenboim' that caused the kerfuffle.

https://www.haaretz.com/1.5386210 (https://www.haaretz.com/1.5386210)

Excerpt:

An Italian conductor conducts an Italian repertoire and its okay. A Russian plays a Russian repertoire, a Frenchman a French. But if a young German says, `I feel okay with the German repertoire,' then he is told: `Something is wrong here.'

Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Biffo on January 02, 2019, 09:14:37 AM
https://www.haaretz.com/1.5386210 (https://www.haaretz.com/1.5386210)

Excerpt:

An Italian conductor conducts an Italian repertoire and its okay. A Russian plays a Russian repertoire, a Frenchman a French. But if a young German says, `I feel okay with the German repertoire,' then he is told: `Something is wrong here.'

I distinctly remember the quote and the fuss - it seems different from the report above. Possibly more 'fake' news. I don't have time today look any further into it but thanks for the link.

Edit: It seems the quote came from a German politician, Klaus Landowsky, comparing Thielemann and Barenboim.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 02, 2019, 11:08:03 AM
I dissent on using the term Brucknerization, but I agree on the main point.


Thank you.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 03, 2019, 05:07:52 PM

An Italian conductor conducts an Italian repertoire and its okay. A Russian plays a Russian repertoire, a Frenchman a French. But if a young German says, `I feel okay with the German repertoire,' then he is told: `Something is wrong here.'
What was Gunter Wand's repertoire? I don't recall anyone branding him sort of Great White Hope.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Ken B on January 03, 2019, 06:57:17 PM
I am not too fond of Thielemann (neither musically nor personally) but to brand everyone who holds a few conservative positions slightly to the right of the "mainstream" (often including things that actually were centrist mainstream positions only 20 years ago) as Nazi or at least close is not only ridiculous but also dangerous and a very serious underestimation of the terror of the actual Nazis as well as some Neonazis. (It is also a serious underestimation of the actual control and manipulation perpetrated by the huge apparatuses (including but not restricted to their intelligence agencies) of the current mainstream political forces that often borders on the totalitarian. As some wise men said already in the 60s or so, one should be less afraid of the fascist in the guise of the fascist than of the one wearing the mask of the democrat.)

Yes. It's de facto Holocaust denial, and we have more a tiny bit of that at GMG.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Jo498 on January 04, 2019, 01:45:44 AM
I probably don't understand the sarcasm. Note that Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany (freedom of speech is severely restricted in these things here), so it is not to be taken lightly and even vague hints in such a direction would be the social death of a public figure (even a right wing party like the AfD would exclude such deniers).

I don't recall the details of the conflict with Barenboim. But the latter is and was an extremely powerful figure in Berlin due to his longstanding position at the opera. And Thielemann apparently is some kind of divo and they clashed in Berlin when Thielemann was at the Deutsche Oper (the one in the West) before he settled for Dresden which seems a very good fit musically and temperamentally. Thielemann made a few more unfortunate remarks and also conducted some march that was a Nazi favorite. But again, this was far too clumsy to serve as "dog whistling".
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Ken B on January 04, 2019, 06:45:43 AM
I probably don't understand the sarcasm. Note that Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany (freedom of speech is severely restricted in these things here), so it is not to be taken lightly and even vague hints in such a direction would be the social death of a public figure (even a right wing party like the AfD would exclude such deniers).

I don't recall the details of the conflict with Barenboim. But the latter is and was an extremely powerful figure in Berlin due to his longstanding position at the opera. And Thielemann apparently is some kind of divo and they clashed in Berlin when Thielemann was at the Deutsche Oper (the one in the West) before he settled for Dresden which seems a very good fit musically and temperamentally. Thielemann made a few more unfortunate remarks and also conducted some march that was a Nazi favorite. But again, this was far too clumsy to serve as "dog whistling".

I wasn’t being sarcastic. I agree calling people you don’t like Nazis is effectively denying the seriousness and extent of Nazi crimes.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 04, 2019, 10:06:09 AM
I wasn’t being sarcastic. I agree calling people you don’t like Nazis is effectively denying the seriousness and extent of Nazi crimes.
Does he qualify as a Nazi?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2lfZg-apSA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2lfZg-apSA)
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: king ubu on January 04, 2019, 06:16:28 PM
I wonder how many people who accuse Thielemann (mainly and mostly on hearsay) of being right-wing, or even worse, a Nazi in disguise, have actually read his article which provoked the whole kerfuffle. Here it is:

https://www.zeit.de/2015/04/pegida-dialog-christian-thielemann-dresdner-staatskapelle (https://www.zeit.de/2015/04/pegida-dialog-christian-thielemann-dresdner-staatskapelle)

Well, the latest part of the kerfuffle, I guess? Thielemann has provoked harsh reactions for over a decade (and I guess at least in earlier years enjoyed acting as agent provocateur). Not that I'm interested in any of it, but just to say this didn't begin in 2015 but many years before.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Ken B on January 04, 2019, 06:20:42 PM
Does he qualify as a Nazi?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2lfZg-apSA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2lfZg-apSA)
Good question actually. But they are not actually calling him a Nazi. They are being ironic. (Not that there’s anything wrong with that.)
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 04, 2019, 06:43:05 PM
Good question actually. But they are not actually calling him a Nazi. They are being ironic. (Not that there’s anything wrong with that.)
Newman actually calls him a "soup Nazi" in the final seconds of the clip, more of a catchy nickname than being ironic I think.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Ken B on January 04, 2019, 06:54:50 PM
Newman actually calls him a "soup Nazi" in the final seconds of the clip, more of a catchy nickname than being ironic I think.
You think?
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Pat B on January 04, 2019, 07:15:23 PM
https://www.haaretz.com/1.5386210 (https://www.haaretz.com/1.5386210)

Excerpt:

An Italian conductor conducts an Italian repertoire and its okay. A Russian plays a Russian repertoire, a Frenchman a French. But if a young German says, `I feel okay with the German repertoire,' then he is told: `Something is wrong here.'

Who tells anybody that “something is wrong” if they “feel okay with the German repertoire?” There is a long list (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_composers) of German composers, most of whose music can be performed without any trace of controversy.

If someone objects to Pfitzner but not Bach, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Brahms, Strauss, Hindemith, et al., then it’s fairly clear that the objection to Pfitzner is for some reason other than that he was German.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Ken B on January 04, 2019, 07:45:58 PM
Who tells anybody that “something is wrong” if they “feel okay with the German repertoire?” There is a long list (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_composers) of German composers, most of whose music can be performed without any trace of controversy.

If someone objects to Pfitzner but not Bach, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Brahms, Strauss, Hindemith, et al., then it’s fairly clear that the objection to Pfitzner is for some reason other than that he was German.
Of course the objection to Pfitzner is more than that he is a German. But the objection under discussion isn’t to Pfitzner. It is to someone else choosing to play Pfitzner. It is one thing to say, I won’t read Dashiell Hammett because he was a Stalinist, it is quite another to tell others “you shouldn’t read Dashiell Hammett”. Or you shouldn’t publish him.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Pat B on January 04, 2019, 11:20:30 PM
Of course the objection to Pfitzner is more than that he is a German. But the objection under discussion isn’t to Pfitzner. It is to someone else choosing to play Pfitzner. It is one thing to say, I won’t read Dashiell Hammett because he was a Stalinist, it is quite another to tell others “you shouldn’t read Dashiell Hammett”. Or you shouldn’t publish him.

Yes, that’s a much stronger argument. If that had been quoted instead of Thielemann’s victim act about German repertoire, I would not have commented.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Florestan on January 05, 2019, 03:38:00 AM
Yes, that’s a much stronger argument. If that had been quoted instead of Thielemann’s victim act about German repertoire, I would not have commented.

If you had read the whole Haaretz article before commenting you'd have noticed that's exactly the type of argument Thielemann makes.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Pat B on January 05, 2019, 07:45:23 AM
If you had read the whole Haaretz article before commenting you'd have noticed that's exactly the type of argument Thielemann makes.

I did read the whole article.

His larger point was that he separates the composition from the composer’s politics. (But apparently not from the composer’s nationality, without explaining or even acknowledging this discrepancy.) This too is weaker than what Ken wrote.

I was responding to the quote you chose. If you believe that quote is not representative of his position, then maybe you should have chosen a different one.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Ken B on January 05, 2019, 08:01:39 AM
I did read the whole article.

His larger point was that he separates the composition from the composer’s politics. (But apparently not from the composer’s nationality, without explaining or even acknowledging this discrepancy.) This too is weaker than what Ken wrote.

I was responding to the quote you chose. If you believe that quote is not representative of his position, then maybe you should have chosen a different one.

I am not sure I quite agree with what you are suggesting Pat, but it’s an interesting observation about the nationality but not the politics. You are right, he does that. But is that uncommon?  I certainly do the same thing with Canadian music. Colin McPhee was a Stalinist.

As for Americans, Copland was a communist too, and I bet you'd get *objections* if you wanted to see his music disappear because of that.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Florestan on January 05, 2019, 09:21:31 AM
I did read the whole article.

His larger point was that he separates the composition from the composer’s politics. (But apparently not from the composer’s nationality, without explaining or even acknowledging this discrepancy.) This too is weaker than what Ken wrote.

I was responding to the quote you chose. If you believe that quote is not representative of his position, then maybe you should have chosen a different one.

I chose that specific quote because I remember Thielemann's being upbraided right here on GMG for limiting his  repertoire to Austro-German music only. (I could do some necromancy in your stead, if you insist...)

As to your other point, I confess I'm at a loss understanding it.

Quote
he separates the composition from the composer’s politics. (But apparently not from the composer’s nationality, without explaining or even acknowledging this discrepancy.)

He is a German conductor separating Wagner's or Pfitzner's German composers' political views from their music. Should he really do the same with French or Italian composers in order to get your stamp of approval? That's precisely the point he made in that Haaretz article which you apparently might have read but which certainly you didn't uinderstand.

I dread contemplating the alternative of your equating consciously German composers with Nazism...


Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Ken B on January 05, 2019, 09:40:45 AM
I don’t think it’s actually a discrepancy. You can have quite a range of political ideas and yet still be part of the same culture and tradition. Schools, mentoring, orchestral playing, friendships etc allcontribute. Especially in eras before modern travel there really was a distinct French tradition in music, and setting the voice. As there was a German one, and a Balinese one. It makes perfect sense to speak of the German repertoire and to see Pfitzner as part of it. What would be weird, and it’s implicitly what the critics seem to be doing, is to see a Nazi tradition. Pfitzner May well have been a Nazi — Webern certainly was — but that doesn’t make his chord progressions Nazi chord progressions.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Florestan on January 05, 2019, 10:04:31 AM
Pfitzner May well have been a Nazi

He might have wished to be one, but even they eventually rejected him -- he was just an opinionated, stubborn, old bore.   :laugh:

Quote
— Webern certainly was —

Yes he was, by his own words, but you won't see it mentioned, or even alluded to, in any music history course --- let alone seeing it acknowledged by fans of the 2nd Viennese School.  ;D

Quote
but that doesn’t make his chord progressions Nazi chord progressions.

If you say it, it's innocuous; if Thielemann says it, then he's a right-wing nuts...  ;D
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Ken B on January 05, 2019, 12:01:13 PM
He might have wished to be one, but even they eventually rejected him -- he was just an opinionated, stubborn, old bore.   :laugh:

Yes he was, by his own words, but you won't see it mentioned, or even alluded to, in any music history course --- let alone seeing it acknowledged by fans of the 2nd Viennese School.  ;D

I'd gladly banish Pfitzner and his acolytes in return for a ban on Webern and his.  ;) >:D >:D :laugh:
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: North Star on January 05, 2019, 04:55:50 PM
Yes he was, by his own words, but you won't see it mentioned, or even alluded to, in any music history course --- let alone seeing it acknowledged by fans of the 2nd Viennese School.  ;D
Interesting, I don't think I've seen those words - can you share them?
Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Webern#Civil_War,_Austrofascism,_Nazism,_and_World_War_II) on the matter.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Ken B on January 05, 2019, 05:38:56 PM
Interesting, I don't think I've seen those words - can you share them?
Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Webern#Civil_War,_Austrofascism,_Nazism,_and_World_War_II) on the matter.

Quote
Webern's patriotism led him to endorse the Nazi regime, for example, in a series of letters to Joseph Hueber, who was serving in the army and himself held such views. Webern described Hitler on May 2, 1940 as "this unique man" who created "the new state" of Germany; thus Alex Ross characterizes him as "an unashamed Hitler enthusiast".
https://www.gustav-mahler.eu/index.php/personen-2/735-webern-anton-von-1883-1945 (https://www.gustav-mahler.eu/index.php/personen-2/735-webern-anton-von-1883-1945)

I believe his son was a party member. He applied for government funds at one point and was found politically acceptable, even though his music was not.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: North Star on January 05, 2019, 06:33:40 PM
https://www.gustav-mahler.eu/index.php/personen-2/735-webern-anton-von-1883-1945 (https://www.gustav-mahler.eu/index.php/personen-2/735-webern-anton-von-1883-1945)

I believe his son was a party member. He applied for government funds at one point and was found politically acceptable, even though his music was not.

Quote
Webern's music, along with that of Berg, Křenek, Schoenberg, and others, was denounced as "cultural Bolshevism" and "degenerate art" by the Nazi Party in Germany, and both publication and performances of it were banned soon after the Anschluss in 1938, although neither did it fare well under the preceding years of Austrofascism. As early as 1933, an Austrian gauleiter on Bayerischer Rundfunk mistakenly and very likely maliciously characterized both Berg and Webern as Jewish composers. As a result of official disapproval throughout the '30s, both found it harder to earn a living; Webern lost a promising conducting career which might have otherwise been more noted and recorded and had to take on work as an editor and proofreader for his publishers, Universal Edition (UE) music publishers. His family's financial situation deteriorated until, by August 1940, his personal records reflected no monthly income. It was thanks to the Swiss philanthropist Werner Reinhart that Webern was able to attend the festive premiere of his Variations for Orchestra, op. 30 in Winterthur, Switzerland in 1943. Reinhart invested all the financial and diplomatic means at his disposal to enable Webern to travel to Switzerland. In return for this support, Webern dedicated the work to him.

There are different descriptions of Webern's attitude towards Nazism; this is perhaps attributable either to its complexity, his internal ambivalence, his prosperity in the preceding years (1918–1934) of post-war Red Vienna in the First Republic of Austria, the subsequently divided political factions of his homeland as represented in his friends and family (from Zionist Schoenberg to his Nazi son Peter), or the different contexts in which or audiences to whom his views were expressed. Further insight into Webern's attitudes comes with the realization that Nazism itself was deeply multifaceted, marked "not  a coherent doctrine or body of systemically interrelated ideas, but rather [by] a vaguer worldview made up of a number of prejudices with varied appeals to different audiences which could scarcely be dignified with the term 'ideology.'"

In broad terms, Webern's attitude seems to have first warmed to a degree of characteristic fervor and perhaps only much later, in conjunction with widespread German disillusionment, cooled to Hitler and the Nazis; but he was no antisemite. On the one hand, Willi Reich notes that Webern attacked Nazi cultural policies in private lectures given in 1933, whose hypothetical publication "would have exposed Webern to serious consequences" later. On the other, some private correspondence attests to his Nazi sympathies, though he denied these to Schoenberg when asked (only once), who heard rumors, never confirmed to him by Rudolf Kolisch and Eduard Steuermann, denied to him by Louis Krasner, and then very strenuously denied to him by Webern.(As such, Schoenberg's Violin Concerto of 1934 (or 1935)–36 continued to bear a dedication to Webern.) Webern's patriotism led him to endorse the Nazi regime, for example, in a series of letters to Joseph Hueber, who was serving in the army and himself held such views. Webern described Hitler on May 2, 1940 as "this unique man" who created "the new state" of Germany; thus Alex Ross characterizes him as "an unashamed Hitler enthusiast".

Musicologist Richard Taruskin describes Webern accurately if vaguely as a pan-German nationalist but then goes much further in claiming specifically that Webern joyfully welcomed the Nazis with the 1938 Anschluss, at best extrapolating from the account of his cited source Krasner and at worst exaggerating or distorting it, as well as describing it sardonically as "heart-breaking."Taruskin's authority on this delicate issue must be credited, if at all, then only with the significant limitations that he has been polemical in general and hostile in particular to the Second Viennese School, of whom Webern is often considered the most extreme and difficult (i.e., the least accessible).

In contrast to Taruskin's methods and pronouncements, musicologist Pamela M. Potter advises that "t is important to consider all the scholarship on musical life in the Third Reich that, taken together, reveals the complexity of the day-to-day existence of musicians and composers," as "it seems inevitable that debates about the political culpability of individuals will persist, especially if the stakes remain so high for composers, for whom an up or down vote can determine inclusion in the canon." In this vein, it might be noted in relation to Taruskin's claim that Webern wrote to friends (husband and wife Josef Humplik and Hildegard Jone) on the day of Anschluss not to invite celebration or to observe developments but to be left alone: "I am totally immersed in my work [composing] and cannot, cannot be disturbed"; Krasner's presence could have been a disturbance to Webern for this reason, and musicologist Kathryn Bailey speculates that this may indeed be why he was rushed off by Webern.

There is, moreover, significant political complexity to be treated, more than enough to complicate any consideration of individual culpability: it is imperative to note that some Social Democrats viewed the National Socialists as an alternative to the Christian Social Party and later Vaterländische Front in the context of reunification with Germany; for example, Karl Renner, a chancellor who served in both the First (1919–33) and Second (post-1945) Austrian Republics, favored a German Anschluss as an alternative to the then Austrofascist regime, under which Berg, Webern, and the Social Democrats suffered. And Webern's professional circle in Vienna included, besides many Jews, many Social Democrats; for example, for David Josef Bach, a close friend of Schoenberg's as well, Webern conducted many workers' and amateur ensembles. Under the Nazis, some Social Democrats expected, there might be more work and protections for workers and laborers, as well as other social reforms and political stability, if not democracy; Webern may well have hoped to again be able to conduct and to be better able to secure a future for his family.

Krasner himself painted not a sentimental portrait but one imbued with a wealth of factual and personal detail for its publication in 1987, describing Webern as clearly naive and idealistic but not entirely without his wits, shame, or conscience; Krasner carefully contextualizes Webern as a member of Austrian society at the time, one departed by Schoenberg and one in which the already pro-Nazi Vienna Philharmonic had even refused to play the late Berg's Violin Concerto. As Krasner vividly recalled, he and Webern were visiting at the latter's home in Maria Enzersdorf, Mödling when the Nazis invaded Austria; Webern, uncannily seeming to anticipate the timing down to 4 o'clock in the afternoon, turned on the radio to hear this news and immediately warned Krasner, urging him to flee immediately, whereupon he did (to Vienna). Whether this was for Krasner's safety or to save Webern the embarrassment of Krasner's presence during a time of possible celebration in the pro-Nazi Webern family or indeed in most of pro-Nazi Mödling, by Krasner's description, Krasner was ambivalent and uncertain, withholding judgment. Only later did Krasner realize how self-admittedly "foolhardy" he had been and in what danger he had placed himself, revealing an ignorance perhaps shared by Webern. Krasner had even revisited frequently, hoping to convince friends (e.g., Schoenberg's daughter Gertrude and her husband Felix Greissle) to emigrate before time ran out.

Moreover, Krasner retold from a story related to him in long discussion with Schoenberg's son Görgi, a Jew who remained in Vienna during the war, that the Weberns, much to their risk and credit, had provided Görgi and his family with food and shelter toward the end of the war at the Weberns' home in a Mödling apartment belonging to their son-in-law. Görgi and his family were left behind for their safety when Webern fled on foot with his family to Mittersill, about 75 km. away, for safety of their own in light of the coming Russian invasion; Amalie, one of Webern's daughters, wrote of '17 persons pressed together in the smallest possible space' upon their arrival. Ironically, the Russians pronounced Görgi a "Nazi spy" when he was discovered due to the Nazi munitions and propagranda in the Weberns' basement store-room. Görgi is said to have saved himself from execution by protesting and drawing attention to his clothes, sewn as specified by the Nazis with the yellow Star of David. He continued to live in this apartment with this family until 1969.

Webern is also known to have aided Josef Polnauer, a Jewish friend who, as an albino, managed to largely escape the Nazis' attention and later edit a publication of Webern's correspondence from this time with Hildegard Jone, Webern's then lyricist and collaborator, and her husband, sculptor Josef Humplik.
Saying that Webern certainly was a Nazi on the basis of this seems ridiculous. I did find some passages from his letters, including a quotation from a secondary source with enthusiasm for Mein Kampf and Germany winning WWII, from here on Google Books, but the author also stresses out how expressing opinions like these might have also been about self-preservation. He also helped and hid numerous Jewish friends.

Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Ken B on January 05, 2019, 06:50:22 PM
Is that Wikipedia? Often a tendentious source.

An appeal to “complexity” is weak tea. Yes but is still yes.

Probably he was not anti Semitic. Arguing that you can only be a Hitler enthusiast if you are an antisemite is unconvincing. You can be naive or oblivious or deluded or indifferent.

Anyway you asked for his own words.

Time being finite, I am willing to trust Ross did his homework.

Update. The Twisted Muse, by Kater is a book devoted to the question of who was or wasn’t.  Pp 72-74 discuss Webern.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=GC0LGe3uzK0C&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&dq=anton+Webern+Hitler&source=bl&ots=IUAiSOwmJx&sig=iWhn6vw9-TYdY759-9V7yRfC1_Y&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjEovG3lNjfAhUn44MKHVMTAEU4ChDoATAOegQIBxAB#v=twopage&q=anton%20Webern%20Hitler&f=true (https://books.google.ca/books?id=GC0LGe3uzK0C&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&dq=anton+Webern+Hitler&source=bl&ots=IUAiSOwmJx&sig=iWhn6vw9-TYdY759-9V7yRfC1_Y&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjEovG3lNjfAhUn44MKHVMTAEU4ChDoATAOegQIBxAB#v=twopage&q=anton%20Webern%20Hitler&f=true)
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Pat B on January 07, 2019, 07:27:42 AM
I chose that specific quote because I remember Thielemann's being upbraided right here on GMG for limiting his  repertoire to Austro-German music only. (I could do some necromancy in your stead, if you insist…)

I vaguely recall some of those comments from when the BPO was choosing its new MD. The key word here is “limit,” and the perception of Thielemann seems to be that he is limited not just to Austro-German repertoire but to a small slice of Austro-German repertoire. I recall reading (maybe elsewhere) that he only excelled in Bruckner, Wagner, and Strauss. If he instead specialized in Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, and Borodin, then that criticism would be fundamentally similar.

As an overseas listener, I don’t have any problem with his repertoire. If I want to listen to Vivaldi, Haydn, Berlioz, Shostakovich, or Ives, I can easily choose a different conductor. But the musicians of the Berlin Philharmonic, when choosing an MD, presumably have a different perspective.

Quote
As to your other point, I confess I'm at a loss understanding it.

He is a German conductor separating Wagner's or Pfitzner's German composers' political views from their music. Should he really do the same with French or Italian composers in order to get your stamp of approval? That's precisely the point he made in that Haaretz article which you apparently might have read but which certainly you didn't uinderstand.

I dread contemplating the alternative of your equating consciously German composers with Nazism...

Like most of us, I have occasionally written things that were open to interpretations different from what I meant. But I did not write anything resembling the latter. If you need me to rephrase it, then: he is cherry-picking which aspects of the composer’s identity he attaches to the composition.

But that thing I put in parentheses is not what really irks me about Thielemann’s comment. More in my response to Ken.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Pat B on January 07, 2019, 07:30:58 AM
I am not sure I quite agree with what you are suggesting Pat, but it’s an interesting observation about the nationality but not the politics. You are right, he does that. But is that uncommon?  I certainly do the same thing with Canadian music. Colin McPhee was a Stalinist.

As for Americans, Copland was a communist too, and I bet you'd get *objections* if you wanted to see his music disappear because of that.

Your first paragraph shows you are putting thought into this, which I appreciate.

But your last clause seems out of the blue. I do not want to see Pfitzner’s music to disappear because of his politics. I do not want to see Pfitzner’s music to disappear at all!

I don’t think it’s actually a discrepancy. You can have quite a range of political ideas and yet still be part of the same culture and tradition. Schools, mentoring, orchestral playing, friendships etc allcontribute. Especially in eras before modern travel there really was a distinct French tradition in music, and setting the voice. As there was a German one, and a Balinese one. It makes perfect sense to speak of the German repertoire and to see Pfitzner as part of it.

In composition, there were situations where this applied. The Franco-Flemish school comes to mind. There were also regional tendencies in the baroque era, but even by then there was increasing cross-pollination. Bach knew Vivaldi’s work. Handel spent decades in London. By the late romantic era, those lines were more blurry still. The masters were published and studied all over. Dvořák 7 is considered Czech because Dvořák was Czech. If a German had written it, it would be considered German repertoire.

But all of that is tangential. Even with my definition of German repertoire, I don’t object to a German musician performing German repertoire. I also don’t object to a German musician being limited to German repertoire. What I object to is a musician who limits himself to German repertoire casting himself as a victim via an obvious strawman.

Quote
What would be weird, and it’s implicitly what the critics seem to be doing, is to see a Nazi tradition. Pfitzner May well have been a Nazi — Webern certainly was — but that doesn’t make his chord progressions Nazi chord progressions.

There was indeed a Nazi style of music (and of other forms of art). If it can’t be called a tradition, it is only because they weren’t around long enough. Whether Pfitzner’s critics have ascribed that musical style to him, I do not know.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: North Star on January 07, 2019, 08:04:45 AM
Is that Wikipedia? Often a tendentious source.

An appeal to “complexity” is weak tea. Yes but is still yes.

Probably he was not anti Semitic. Arguing that you can only be a Hitler enthusiast if you are an antisemite is unconvincing. You can be naive or oblivious or deluded or indifferent.

Anyway you asked for his own words.

Time being finite, I am willing to trust Ross did his homework.

Update. The Twisted Muse, by Kater is a book devoted to the question of who was or wasn’t.  Pp 72-74 discuss Webern.
It's from the site you posted a link to, but copied there from Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Webern#Civil_War,_Austrofascism,_Nazism,_and_World_War_II) as you say. Naivety was mentioned in the Webern bio on Google Books, and it must have played a part, along with much of the family, apart from his wife, supporting Hitler.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Ken B on January 07, 2019, 12:04:27 PM
It's from the site you posted a link to, but copied there from Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Webern#Civil_War,_Austrofascism,_Nazism,_and_World_War_II) as you say. Naivety was mentioned in the Webern bio on Google Books, and it must have played a part, along with much of the family, apart from his wife, supporting Hitler.
The point about naïveté is important I agree, but it applies to more than just Webern. Lots of people were sympathetic to Hitler, and even more to Mussolini, before their true nature became evident/undeniable. People are often duped by monsters. (A famous, rather sinister example, is Hjalmar Schacht. He was tried and acquitted at Nuremberg. He was a nasty piece of work, and supported some Nazi nastiness for sure, and early on was a Nazi cabinet minister. But he fell away from them as things progressed.) I see Webern as supporting Hitler because of his successes, and try8ng/managing to fool himself about his real nature.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 07, 2019, 12:10:53 PM
The point about naïveté is important I agree, but it applies to more than just Webern. Lots of people were sympathetic to Hitler, and even more to Mussolini, before their true nature became evident/undeniable. People are often duped by monsters. (A famous, rather sinister example, is Hjalmar Schacht. He was tried and acquitted at Nuremberg. He was a nasty piece of work, and supported some Nazi nastiness for sure, and early on was a Nazi cabinet minister. But he fell away from them as things progressed.) I see Webern as supporting Hitler because of his successes, and try8ng/managing to fool himself about his real nature.

Psychoanalyzing Webern seems utterly pointless, especially in view of the paucity of reliable evidence. I see no trace of Nazi-ism in his music, so I feel no discomfort listening to it. He's dead, so I am doing him no favors one way or the other. If he were alive and collecting royalties I might give it some thought.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 12:37:16 PM
. I see no trace of Nazi-ism in his music, so I feel no discomfort listening to it. He's dead, so I am doing him no favors one way or the other. If he were alive and collecting royalties I might give it some thought.

Do you see any trace of Nazi-ism in Wagner's or Pfitzner's music? Please, please, please be honest.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: North Star on January 07, 2019, 01:09:17 PM
The point about naïveté is important I agree, but it applies to more than just Webern. Lots of people were sympathetic to Hitler, and even more to Mussolini, before their true nature became evident/undeniable. People are often duped by monsters. (A famous, rather sinister example, is Hjalmar Schacht. He was tried and acquitted at Nuremberg. He was a nasty piece of work, and supported some Nazi nastiness for sure, and early on was a Nazi cabinet minister. But he fell away from them as things progressed.) I see Webern as supporting Hitler because of his successes, and try8ng/managing to fool himself about his real nature.
True, and had Schönberg not been Jewish he might have had a similar relationship with Nazis, recalling his remark about dodecaphony and the domination of German music.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 01:49:11 PM
True, and had Schönberg not been Jewish he might have had a similar relationship with Nazis, recalling his remark about dodecaphony and the domination of German music.

The said remark is conveniently glossed over....  :laugh:

That the Nazis prohibited and ridiculed any contemporary, modern, atonal, dodecaphonic music is a myth --- but myths die hard...  :laugh:

Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: North Star on January 07, 2019, 03:42:20 PM
The said remark is conveniently glossed over....  :laugh:
Alright, if you want details. ;)
Quote
In the early 1920s, he worked at evolving a means of order that would make his musical texture simpler and clearer. This resulted in the “method of composing with twelve tones which are related only with one another,” in which the twelve pitches of the octave (unrealized compositionally) are regarded as equal, and no one note or tonality is given the emphasis it occupied in classical harmony. He regarded it as the equivalent in music of Albert Einstein’s discoveries in physics. Schoenberg announced it characteristically, during a walk with his friend Josef Rufer, when he said, “I have made a discovery which will ensure the supremacy of German music for the next hundred years.”
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/music/chapter/arnold-schoenberg/

That the Nazis prohibited and ridiculed any contemporary, modern, atonal, dodecaphonic music is a myth --- but myths die hard...  :laugh:
Oh, can you show that it is a myth?
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: Mirror Image on January 12, 2019, 08:47:38 PM
These types of concerts never have had much, if any, appeal to me. I mean it’s fine if you like the Strauss family’s music, but, personally, I’d rather spend a gloomy day with Shostakovich or Schnittke (not that I’m deriding either composer’s general aesthetic --- just making a point) than have to watch another Vienna New Year’s concert.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: shirime on January 13, 2019, 01:04:19 AM
Just imagine, if you can, Johann Strauss I or Johann Strauss II or Josef Strauss conducting with a baton instead of a violin, the audience formally dressed, stiff and still, listening in awe as if they were listening to a Bruckner symphony / Wagner opera, waiting for being told and conducted when to applaud...

I say, claim and maintain that the Vienna PO's New Year's Concert is nothing else than the Brucknerization of the Waltz, ie an abomination.

This is probably the one thing Florestan and I agree on tbh.
Title: Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
Post by: vandermolen on January 13, 2019, 01:13:01 AM
These types of concerts never have had much, if any, appeal to me. I mean it’s fine if you like the Strauss family’s music, but, personally, I’d rather spend a gloomy day with Shostakovich or Schnittke (not that I’m deriding either composer’s general aesthetic --- just making a point) than have to watch another Vienna New Year’s concert.
+1