GMG Classical Music Forum

The Back Room => The Diner => Topic started by: vandermolen on June 15, 2019, 03:21:09 AM

Title: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2019, 03:21:09 AM
Here is a nice uncontroversial one for you.

Johnson rather likes to compare himself with Churchill but I rather liked the observation that 'Churchill had personality and character. Johnson has personality.'

Any views?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on June 15, 2019, 04:48:25 AM
Here is a nice uncontroversial one for you.

Johnson rather likes to compare himself with Churchill but I rather liked the observation that 'Churchill had personality and character. Johnson has personality.'

Any views?
It's also fair to consider Churchill a disaster until 1940 - and then he had his finest hour (lasting for two years) which deserves him all posterior praise. Thus far Boris only succesfully copied the disaster.  :D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 15, 2019, 05:45:43 AM
Churchill needed a nemesis on the scale of Hitler in order to show himself a decent chap, a brave man and a sensible stateman --- all of which he was, no doubts.

Who is Johnson's Hitler, I wonder?  ;D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Todd on June 15, 2019, 06:09:43 AM
Only three posts to get to Hitler.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 15, 2019, 06:53:02 AM
Only three posts to get to Hitler.

 ;D

Hey, don't get me wrong, Boris Johnson would have been no match for Hitler. But can you really divorce Churchill's achievements and fame from his battle with Hitler? What would have Churchill achieved without the latter?

No, honestly, Churchill got itto power with the specific purpose to oppose, and later defeat, Hitler. What's so strange in my naming the later guy?

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Todd on June 15, 2019, 07:01:11 AM
What would have Churchill achieved without the latter?


Churchill was an accomplished man long before the 40s.  For instance, he played a not insignificant role in converting the Royal Navy from coal to oil.  That had rather far reaching geostrategic implications.  He did other stuff, too. 

Also, Boris' Hitler could be Trump.  Amiright?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 15, 2019, 07:05:03 AM
Boris' Hitler could be Trump.  Amiright?

Dead wrong, actually. Trrump is definitely no Hitler, nor is Johnson any Churchill, by any stretch of the imagination.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Todd on June 15, 2019, 07:05:42 AM
Trump is definitely no Hitler


What?!?!
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 15, 2019, 07:20:26 AM

What?!?!

Trump is definitely no Hitler --- not only because 2020 Americans are definitely no 1930 Germans, but also because 2020 Germans are definitely not 1930 Germans.

My assessment: Trump is an idiot who temporarily holds the office of POTUS because he has capitalized upon many legitimate grievances of the American working class, whom the Left picture as the greatest enemy of humanity ever, whose pronouncements can safely be ignored and whose official decrees can be lawfully undone , if so wished, by whomever succeeds him.

Hitler my a$$!
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Todd on June 15, 2019, 07:26:29 AM
<> is an idiot who temporarily holds the office of POTUS


The same can be, and is, said of every president.

You sure don't seem to see the imminent and catastrophic danger that Trump represents.  Shame on you.

But to get back to the topic, surely you see the Right Honourable Boris Johnson as an imminent and catastrophic danger to the UK, Europe, and the world.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 15, 2019, 07:36:12 AM
The same can be, and is, said of every president.

Surely. Not only of USA, but of each and any republic under the sun. Add kingdom or empire too.

Quote
You sure don't seem to see the imminent and catastrophic danger that Trump represents.  Shame on you.

No, I don't. I'm a capitalistic, mysoginistic, white suprematist pig.

Quote
you see the Right Honourable Boris Johnson as an imminent and catastrophic danger to the UK, Europe, and the world.

No, I don't. I see him as one of the many idiots who compete for having the right honourable right to ride a dead horse.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: drogulus on June 15, 2019, 08:10:40 AM
Churchill needed a nemesis on the scale of Hitler in order to show himself a decent chap, a brave man and a sensible stateman --- all of which he was, no doubts.

Who is Johnson's Hitler, I wonder?  ;D

     During the '30s Churchill ran the worlds best intelligence service against Germany from his bathtub.

    I think Trump exhibits a level of multidimensional idiocy that is unprecedented. It's far more then an idiotic policy choice.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 15, 2019, 08:30:10 AM
     During the '30s Churchill ran the worlds best intelligence service against Germany from his bathtub.

If the German intelligence were that idiotic and incompetent as to be defeated from one's bathtub, why did it take so many years for Churchill to defeat them, I wonder?

Quote
    I think Trump exhibits a level of multidimensional idiocy that is unprecedented.

I think not. What is indeed unprecedented is (hostile) media coverage.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: drogulus on June 15, 2019, 08:46:57 AM
If the German intelligence were that idiotic and incompetent as to be defeated from one's bathtub, why did it take so many years for Churchill to defeat them, I wonder?



     Churchill had the most extensive factual information on German rearmament, not German intelligence operations, and his political instincts about NAZI intentions were spot on.

     Churchill defended fortress Britain long enough for Stalin and Roosevelt to defeat Germany.

     
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 15, 2019, 09:27:34 AM
     Churchill had the most extensive factual information on German rearmament, not German intelligence operations, and his political instincts about NAZI intentions were spot on.

     Churchill defended fortress Britain long enough for Stalin and Roosevelt to defeat Germany.

   


IOW, Germans were big time idiots with respect to intelligence.

Sorry, I don't buy this. Try something else.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Todd on June 15, 2019, 09:51:10 AM
No, I don't. I'm a capitalistic, mysoginistic, white suprematist pig.


You forgot privileged, patriarchal, and both a purveyor and victim of toxic masculinity.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: drogulus on June 15, 2019, 10:06:28 AM

IOW, Germans were big time idiots with respect to intelligence.

Sorry, I don't buy this. Try something else.

     I don't understand your point. I made no claim about the effectiveness of German intelligence, only Churchill's ad hoc network of informants who provided valuable information on the true state of German war preparations and the weakness of British defenses.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 15, 2019, 10:09:51 AM
     I don't understand your point.

Neither do I.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: drogulus on June 15, 2019, 10:16:33 AM
Neither do I.

     At last we agree.

“In his memoirs, written so soon after the war, Churchill could not tell the story of the help which Morton and others had given him. Yet without the information provided by Morton, Wigram and Anderson, and by many other officials whose contact with Churchill is described in this volume, each of whom risked his career by telling Churchill what they knew of Britain's defence weaknesses, it would have been very difficult, if not impossible, for him to have kept up his sustained pressure on the Government, to have kept himself so fully informed on a day-to-day basis of the true defence situation in all its aspects, to have aroused public opinion through his detailed and accurate warnings, or to have been so well prepared to take up once more the responsibilities of a member of the War Cabinet at the outbreak of war in September 1939.”
- Martin Gilbert, Churchill biographer


     I read the 2 volume Manchester bio, the second of which, Alone, covers the relevant period.
 
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 15, 2019, 10:17:24 AM
     At last we agree.

 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2019, 10:41:04 AM
It's also fair to consider Churchill a disaster until 1940 - and then he had his finest hour (lasting for two years) which deserves him all posterior praise. Thus far Boris only succesfully copied the disaster.  :D
Very true Johan. He seems to have Churchill's bombast and arrogance without any of his genius.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2019, 10:43:12 AM
;D

Hey, don't get me wrong, Boris Johnson would have been no match for Hitler. But can you really divorce Churchill's achievements and fame from his battle with Hitler? What would have Churchill achieved without the latter?

No, honestly, Churchill got itto power with the specific purpose to oppose, and later defeat, Hitler. What's so strange in my naming the later guy?
I think that you are right about Churchill. Without his defiance of Hitler, Churchill would, I suspect, be seen as something of a political failure. It is true, however, that he was a social reformer in his Liberal days  at the start of the 20th century - something often forgotten.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2019, 10:46:34 AM
     Churchill had the most extensive factual information on German rearmament, not German intelligence operations, and his political instincts about NAZI intentions were spot on.

     Churchill defended fortress Britain long enough for Stalin and Roosevelt to defeat Germany.

   

Good point I think.

Thanks to everyone for contributions.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on June 15, 2019, 10:58:36 AM
Good point I think.

Thanks to everyone for contributions.


You didn't see those coming, did you?  :D

Anyway, since Johnson is able to sell anything to his electorate, some "on the continent" actually hope that he will trick the British in signing off on the withdrawal agreement  (May's deal). 
Why on earth would he do that?  ::) To survive as PM, of course!  :D
He will come up with some bogus story about miraculous changes to the deal,  and the EU will be willing to play along....

It’s either that scenario, or he will drag the UK out of the EU without any deal and all hell will break loose. ..

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 15, 2019, 11:01:56 AM
Very true Johan. He seems to have Churchill's bombast and arrogance without any of his genius.

So what? His finest hour came afterward --- bombast and arrogance included.

No, honestly, let's see:

We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our [country], whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender

Substitute Hitler for Churchill --- what would have changed for the troops, the rank and files of the party(es), and the people, pray tell honestly?

On a more general note, what's wrong with Horst-Wessel-Lied?

History is written and taught and enforced by the victors.











Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2019, 09:49:10 PM


You didn't see those coming, did you?  :D

Anyway, since Johnson is able to sell anything to his electorate, some "on the continent" actually hope that he will trick the British in signing off on the withdrawal agreement  (May's deal). 
Why on earth would he do that?  ::) To survive as PM, of course!  :D
He will come up with some bogus story about miraculous changes to the deal,  and the EU will be willing to play along....

It’s either that scenario, or he will drag the UK out of the EU without any deal and all hell will break loose. ..

Q
No I didn't indeed  8)

The odd thing is that I checked the thread yesterday and there were zero responses (not an unusual situation for me ;)) and then there were suddenly loads, mainly from the same people of course but still welcome.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2019, 09:53:53 PM
So what? His finest hour came afterward --- bombast and arrogance included.

No, honestly, let's see:

We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our [country], whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender

Substitute Hitler for Churchill --- what would have changed for the troops, the rank and files of the party(es), and the people, pray tell honestly?


Oh yes, of course Churchill's bombast and arrogance was part of his personality I agree and he needed supreme confidence in his 'destiny' to lead the nation through those 'darkest hours'.

I read the other day that Boris Johnson is the only politician who could reverse Brexit and probably get away with it!
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: amw on June 15, 2019, 11:02:36 PM
Churchill racked up a body count of approximately 3 million through engineering a genocidal famine in Bengal in the 1940s. I'm not sure Boris Johnson is yet in the same league; he's yet to genocide anyone.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2019, 11:35:26 PM
Churchill racked up a body count of approximately 3 million through engineering a genocidal famine in Bengal in the 1940s. I'm not sure Boris Johnson is yet in the same league; he's yet to genocide anyone.
I think that 'engineering a genocidal famine...' might be overstating it.
Here is an alternative view, featuring Boris Johnson as well!
https://winstonchurchill.hillsdale.edu/did-churchill-cause-the-bengal-famine/
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 23, 2019, 10:24:10 AM
So, is Boris's private life relevant to his capacity to fulfil the role of PM?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on June 23, 2019, 10:41:32 AM
I think we didn't need to know anything about his private life to come to the conclusion that he is a conceited fool...  8)

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 23, 2019, 10:55:54 AM
Love this bit from Outnumbered where a German exchange student thinks Boris is a professional comedian ("He plays the mayor of London, a very stupid politician, he's very stupid and funny") and the family can't convince him otherwise  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/v/bQGVBglqKjY


Sarge
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 23, 2019, 11:05:26 AM
Love this bit from Outnumbered where a German exchange student thinks Boris is a professional comedian ("He plays the mayor of London, a very stupid politician, he's very stupid and funny") and the family can't convince him otherwise  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/v/bQGVBglqKjY


Sarge

And we have a buffoon playing President
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on June 23, 2019, 11:13:58 AM
And we have a buffoon playing President
Buffoon is correct, but playing President - hardly.  :D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 23, 2019, 02:16:51 PM
Love this bit from Outnumbered where a German exchange student thinks Boris is a professional comedian ("He plays the mayor of London, a very stupid politician, he's very stupid and funny") and the family can't convince him otherwise  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/v/bQGVBglqKjY


Sarge

Very funny Sarge!
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on June 25, 2019, 08:44:47 AM
Maybe it's not a good start to compare Johnson to Churchill.

The number of Conservatives all over the world who like to pose as heirs to Churchill is virtually unlimited, and it usually betrays a longing for the late colonial era that is rather painful.

It's odd how Johnson's move to the PM post has become inevitable. A man so buffoonishly incompetent...
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 25, 2019, 10:06:38 AM
Maybe it's not a good start to compare Johnson to Churchill.

The number of Conservatives all over the world who like to pose as heirs to Churchill is virtually unlimited, and it usually betrays a longing for the late colonial era that is rather painful.

It's odd how Johnson's move to the PM post has become inevitable. A man so buffoonishly incompetent...

You're right, very worrying.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Marc on June 26, 2019, 11:20:56 AM
You're right, very worrying.

Well, in this, Britain is not alone. (Even when excluding The Donald.)

Apparently many voters are very pleased with all those buffoons presenting lies and alternative facts. I live in a country where this has been happening now for 18 or so years, too. Thanks to the mega multiple political party system here, no buffoon has managed to grab a real huge win (yet?). But one clown managed a victory a few months ago in the Dutch provincial (and Senate) elections. He's blabbering around in a very eloquent way, and amazingly popular.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Daverz on June 26, 2019, 08:14:36 PM
Reading up on the insanity in Oregon might make you guys feel a bit better:

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a28168996/oregon-republican-senators-militia/
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: JBS on July 01, 2019, 03:09:10 PM
Boris is at least a little bit better than Donald
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7199469/Johnson-repeats-criticism-Putin-s-claim-liberalism-obsolete.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ito=1490&ns_campaign=1490
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 04, 2019, 02:45:53 AM
Boris is at least a little bit better than Donald
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7199469/Johnson-repeats-criticism-Putin-s-claim-liberalism-obsolete.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ito=1490&ns_campaign=1490

I think Johnson has the potential to be - for the UK at least - every bit as dangerous as Trump.  He is a more sophisticated political operator but equally egostistical and only concerned with his own advancement.  What amazes me is how little kick back any politician gets for making the most absurd comments or promises.  Both candidates are making statements about spending (after years of nominal austerity) and how they WILL leave the EU on October 31st that have no basis in financial probity or legal/political reality

Personally I don't think private lives should necessarily impact on public roles - but if someone in their private life is shown to have no regard for others through repeated statements or actions it has to impact on the suitability of them taking a wider role - this Max Hastings article about Johnson is deeply disturbing.  Al the more so for Hastings being right wing - no moaning liberal with an agenda he!

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/10/boris-johnson-unfit-to-be-prime-minister

I also do not understand the collective hypocrisy of a Society which in some fields will cast out a 'celebrity' for perceived inappropriate behaviour and for others dismiss it as "just Donald..." or somesuch.  I do not support the predatory behaviour of say a Kevin Spacey but why is his career in tatters and Trump gets elected President......?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 04, 2019, 03:25:33 AM
It does seem absurd that something like 0.6% of the UK population are voting in our next Prime Minister. i just spoke to a Dutch friend on the phone and am inclined to agree with his comment:

'What a bloody stupid country you live in!'

I've always admired The directness of the Dutch.

 8)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: JBS on July 04, 2019, 05:04:18 PM
I think Johnson has the potential to be - for the UK at least - every bit as dangerous as Trump.  He is a more sophisticated political operator but equally egostistical and only concerned with his own advancement.  What amazes me is how little kick back any politician gets for making the most absurd comments or promises.  Both candidates are making statements about spending (after years of nominal austerity) and how they WILL leave the EU on October 31st that have no basis in financial probity or legal/political reality

Personally I don't think private lives should necessarily impact on public roles - but if someone in their private life is shown to have no regard for others through repeated statements or actions it has to impact on the suitability of them taking a wider role - this Max Hastings article about Johnson is deeply disturbing.  Al the more so for Hastings being right wing - no moaning liberal with an agenda he!

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/10/boris-johnson-unfit-to-be-prime-minister

I also do not understand the collective hypocrisy of a Society which in some fields will cast out a 'celebrity' for perceived inappropriate behaviour and for others dismiss it as "just Donald..." or somesuch.  I do not support the predatory behaviour of say a Kevin Spacey but why is his career in tatters and Trump gets elected President......?

 There is actually a significant difference.  Spacey is a classic workplace sexual harrasser, Trump is not.

Spacey forced himself on much younger men (some of them apparently underage) whose job prospects were dependent on being in his good graces. Trump has been accused of molesting/assaulting women, but with the exception of his first wife, none of them were in directly professionally or financially dependent on him. If he has molested women who worked for him,  none of them seem to have complained publicly.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on July 05, 2019, 01:32:00 AM
Per a new election vid, Boris has got a new slogan, to persuade the Tories to vote him in: "Kick the can and we kick the bucket."

Bewildering.

Obviously there's something suicidal in how the Tory Party has been behaving the last couple of years, but to just put it out there is kind of weird...
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 24, 2019, 08:28:01 AM
Don't know what to say really. Thoroughly depressed by today's events. Still I enjoyed the cover of Private Eye with its photo of Boris Johnson outside Downing Street and its caption: 'The Ego has Landed'.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: André on July 24, 2019, 09:23:50 AM
We'll see how long it takes for him to be called BoJo the Clown...
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2019, 09:49:24 AM
We'll see how long it takes for him to be called BoJo the Clown...

About 6 months ago for me... :D  (which is when I saw "BoJo" on Twitter. The rest wrote itself).

8)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Marc on July 24, 2019, 02:20:24 PM
We'll see how long it takes for him to be called BoJo the Clown...

Many sensible people already do that for years. ;)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: André on July 24, 2019, 02:39:52 PM
Many sensible people already do that for years. ;)

Nothing beats popular wisdom  :D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on July 24, 2019, 06:12:36 PM
It does seem absurd that something like 0.6% of the UK population are voting in our next Prime Minister. i just spoke to a Dutch friend on the phone and am inclined to agree with his comment:

'What a bloody stupid country you live in!'

I've always admired The directness of the Dutch.

 8)
I may quote you then, Winston Churchill becoming prime minister proves what a stupid country Britain was.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 24, 2019, 08:55:09 PM
I may quote you then, Winston Churchill becoming prime minister proves what a stupid country Britain was.

I'd be interested to know why you think that.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on July 24, 2019, 09:24:17 PM
Johnson just got rid of half the cabinet, alienating himself of the more moderate Conservatives that supported his rival Jeremy Hunt. And he got important people ft om the Vote Leave campaign, like  Dominic Cummings, into his close circle.

His strategy seems to be:
1. pressure the EU into an adjusted deal;
2. if that fails: force through a no deal;
3. if that is blocked by parliament: a direct appeal to the (Conservative) electorate through general elections, to regain a parliamentary majority.

As a born populist, he might pull this off.... ::)

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 24, 2019, 11:25:20 PM
Johnson just got rid of half the cabinet, alienating himself of the more moderate Conservatives that supported his rival Jeremy Hunt. And he got important people ft om the Vote Leave campaign, like  Dominic Cummings, into his close circle.

His strategy seems to be:
1. pressure the EU into an adjusted deal;
2. if that fails: force through a no deal;
3. if that is blocked by parliament: a direct appeal to the (Conservative) electorate through general elections, to regain a parliamentary majority.

As a born populist, he might pull this off.... ::)

Q
I agree with your analysis.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on July 25, 2019, 04:13:32 AM
I'd be interested to know why you think that.
Same constitutional process wasn’t it? Old PM resigns, new one chosen by tiny fraction of a per cent of the populace.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on July 25, 2019, 05:02:53 AM
Johnson just got rid of half the cabinet, alienating himself of the more moderate Conservatives that supported his rival Jeremy Hunt.

He also gave a family member a cabinet job.

Now how does this sound familiar?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 25, 2019, 05:08:22 AM
Same constitutional process wasn’t it? Old PM resigns, new one chosen by tiny fraction of a per cent of the populace.
Oh, I see what you mean. I don't think that anyone voted for Churchill in 1940. He was just appointed by Chamberlain when Halifax refused to take the job.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on July 25, 2019, 05:16:10 AM
Oh, I see what you mean. I don't think that anyone voted for Churchill in 1940. He was just appointed by Chamberlain when Halifax refused to take the job.
He commanded a majority of the house, just as has every single PM since Walpole, in every parliamentary democracy in the world. Same constitutional process.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 25, 2019, 07:48:20 AM
He commanded a majority of the house, just as has every single PM since Walpole, in every parliamentary democracy in the world. Same constitutional process.
Yes that's true but he wasn't voted in by a General Election until 1951.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on July 26, 2019, 05:33:08 AM
The EU wanted to make the UK suffer during the Brexit negotiations for obvious reasons. If the UK came out smelling of roses then there is a distinct prospect that either or both of Italy and Spain would follow. Their hard line approach has seen off May which until now perhaps the EU views as a victory. But it has opened a can of worms, if you keep on kicking sooner or later the one being kicked will turn and this is where Johnson comes in. I voted remain but like most Brits I have had enough. I want out, deal or no deal.

Frankly I couldn't care less what Johnson gets up to in his private life. It is that, private.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 26, 2019, 06:34:38 AM
The EU wanted to make the UK suffer during the Brexit negotiations for obvious reasons. If the UK came out smelling of roses then there is a distinct prospect that either or both of Italy and Spain would follow. Their hard line approach has seen off May which until now perhaps the EU views as a victory. But it has opened a can of worms, if you keep on kicking sooner or later the one being kicked will turn and this is where Johnson comes in. I voted remain but like most Brits I have had enough. I want out, deal or no deal.

Frankly I couldn't care less what Johnson gets up to in his private life. It is that, private.
I voted remain also but now think that a soft Brexit is probably the best choice. I'd also be happy if Article 50 was revoked.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on July 26, 2019, 09:56:38 AM
The EU wanted to make the UK suffer during the Brexit negotiations for obvious reasons. If the UK came out smelling of roses then there is a distinct prospect that either or both of Italy and Spain would follow. Their hard line approach has seen off May which until now perhaps the EU views as a victory. But it has opened a can of worms, if you keep on kicking sooner or later the one being kicked will turn and this is where Johnson comes in. I voted remain but like most Brits I have had enough. I want out, deal or no deal.

Do you imply that it's EU's exclusive fault for the current lack of any reasonable deal?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on July 26, 2019, 11:53:01 AM
Do you imply that it's EU's exclusive fault for the current lack of any reasonable deal?

Obviously not but there’s something you’re missing. Something very serious is happening in Britain: the people are starting to lose confidence in parliamentary democracy. We are, it feels, being led by donkeys. It needs someone to cut the Gordian knot, quick.

Asking about fault is a bit irrelevant.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 26, 2019, 12:05:42 PM
The comparatively small group of Conservatives who voted for Johnson are mainly white, male and over 50 (a category that I fall into, although I'm not a Conservative). They are unrepresentative of the country as a whole and yet Johnson's rise to power (due to fear of the pop-up Brexit Party) is being represented as 'The Will of the People' - all very deeply depressing. People are indeed losing faith in democracy.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on July 26, 2019, 12:57:47 PM
Obviously not but there’s something you’re missing. Something very serious is happening in Britain: the people are starting to lose confidence in parliamentary democracy. We are, it feels, being led by donkeys. It needs someone to cut the Gordian knot, quick.

Asking about fault is a bit irrelevant.

Yes. I would never have had a referendum were I PM, especially not one where I were unwilling to accept losing. Once that was done though, and then a parliamentary vote as well, you simply must follow through. Otherwise what possible claim to legitimacy is there?

Donkeys seems a fair assessment from over here btw.
Do you know how many people are charged with a crime in England every year for Facebook posts? Around 3000. For facebooking! The Yorkshire police want to charge people for rudeness. Yes, the same cops who covered up Rotherham. (What kind of a country covers up the rape of its children? )The NHS has shortages. And parliament ...  Donkeys looks fair to me.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on July 26, 2019, 02:06:40 PM
The EU wanted to make the UK suffer during the Brexit negotiations for obvious reasons. If the UK came out smelling of roses then there is a distinct prospect that either or both of Italy and Spain would follow. Their hard line approach has seen off May which until now perhaps the EU views as a victory. But it has opened a can of worms, if you keep on kicking sooner or later the one being kicked will turn and this is where Johnson comes in. I voted remain but like most Brits I have had enough. I want out, deal or no deal.

So the EU has punished the UK, which is now the victim....

I think we should keep in mind that over several decades of EU membership it is the UK which has used every opportunity to play hardball and push through its economic and geopolitical objectives within the EU, and also obtain significant special privileges. It is true that when the UK decided to leave the EU, it lost its leverage to force any special treatment. Now it is Ireland's interests that take priority over that of a future outsider.

But let's also keep in mind that a hard Brexit will cost the EU €40 billion per year and will lead to a weakened position of Europe in the world. Close future economic and political cooperation with the UK is actually very much in the interest of the EU. But handing out special favours or damaging vital interests of a member state is not....

Welcome to the reality of international relations... Countries and alliances of countries look after their own interests first and foremost. Isn't it also the main reason for the UK to leave the EU?

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on July 26, 2019, 11:03:43 PM
Do you imply that it's EU's exclusive fault for the current lack of any reasonable deal?

Not by a long chalk. They just haven't helped. 
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on July 26, 2019, 11:11:26 PM
Obviously not but there’s something you’re missing. Something very serious is happening in Britain: the people are starting to lose confidence in parliamentary democracy. We are, it feels, being led by donkeys. It needs someone to cut the Gordian knot, quick.

Asking about fault is a bit irrelevant.

Fair point, "donkey" is a bit strong. You are right about losing confidence in democracy as Parliament has not delivered what the nation voted for namely Brexit.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on July 26, 2019, 11:28:42 PM
Boris Johnson knows that if he succeeds in a general election to win back the votes that were lost to Farage, charm or scare a sufficient number of moderate Conservative voters and attract leavers from a severely weakened and divided Labour, the British electoral system will hand him a parliamentary majority on a silver platter.

You have to hand it to him: that is a clever strategy, very clever....  ::)

But without a weakened Labour it wouldn't be possible.
And the prospect of a Labour government under Corbyn will scare a large number of moderate Conservatives to stick with Johnson despite Brexit. Once more Jeremy Corbyn's role will be that of Brexit enabler.
None of the promised sunlit Socialist' Utopia will come true. He actually prepared the country for a hardcore right wing nationalistic government.

Johnson should send him a flowers and a thank you note....

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 27, 2019, 01:22:53 AM
Boris Johnson knows that if he succeeds in a general election to win back the votes that were lost to Farage, charm or scare a sufficient number of moderate Conservative voters and attract leavers from a severely weakened and divided Labour, the British electoral system will hand him a parliamentary majority on a silver platter.

You have to hand it to him: that is a clever strategy, very clever....  ::)

But without a weakened Labour it wouldn't be possible.
And the prospect of a Labour government under Corbyn will scare a large number of moderate Conservatives to stick with Johnson despite Brexit. Once more Jeremy Corbyn's role will be that of Brexit enabler.
None of the promised sunlit Socialist' Utopia will come true. He actually prepared the country for a hardcore right wing nationalistic government.

Johnson should send him a flowers and a thank you note....

Q
Yes, I largely agree. I wish that Sir Keir Starmer was the the Leader of the Labour Party and not Corbyn.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on July 27, 2019, 05:07:49 AM
Boris Johnson knows that if he succeeds in a general election to win back the votes that were lost to Farage, charm or scare a sufficient number of moderate Conservative voters and attract leavers from a severely weakened and divided Labour, the British electoral system will hand him a parliamentary majority on a silver platter.

You have to hand it to him: that is a clever strategy, very clever....  ::)

But without a weakened Labour it wouldn't be possible.
And the prospect of a Labour government under Corbyn will scare a large number of moderate Conservatives to stick with Johnson despite Brexit. Once more Jeremy Corbyn's role will be that of Brexit enabler.
None of the promised sunlit Socialist' Utopia will come true. He actually prepared the country for a hardcore right wing nationalistic government.

Johnson should send him a flowers and a thank you note....

Q

A spot on analysis. The power behind the throne is a scruffy individual by the name of Dominic Cummings who is pulling Johnson's strings. Cummings is the man with a plan.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on July 27, 2019, 06:01:38 AM
Indeed, the masterplan is probably Cummings'.  :)

One further thought....

Once Johnson has his majority in Parliament, he could throw the DUP under the bus and agree to a backstop limited to Northern Ireland - as the EU originally intended.
Then all will be clear to sign off on the withdrawal agreement and start negotiations on a Canada-style free trade agreement.

Problem solved and the Vote Leave agenda fully implemented....  8)

The funny thing is that, apart from the DUP, the Northern Irish will be quite fine will that solution. In a seperate customs territory that is aligned with the rest of Ireland and the EU, they will have the best of both worlds.
Will this lead to a closer pull towards the Irish Republic? Probably... But only the DUP would really mind.

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 27, 2019, 06:58:21 AM
Indeed, the masterplan is probably Cummings'.  :)

One further thought....

Once Johnson has his majority in Parliament, he could throw the DUP under the bus and agree to a backstop limited to Northern Ireland - as the EU originally intended.
Then all will be clear to sign off on the withdrawal agreement and start negotiations on a Canada-style free trade agreement.

Problem solved and the Vote Leave agenda fully implemented....  8)

The funny thing is that, apart from the DUP, the Northern Irish will be quite fine will that solution. In a seperate customs territory that is aligned with the rest of Ireland and the EU, they will have the best of both worlds.
Will this lead to a closer pull towards the Irish Republic? Probably... But only the DUP would really mind.

Q

Yes, if they gave the North to the South there would be no problem.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on July 27, 2019, 07:46:51 AM
Yes, if they gave the North to the South there would be no problem.

Is that how you see it?  By keeping NI in a customs union and partial regulatory alignment with the EU, it will be "handed over"?

I would disagree. A seperate economic status within the UK isn't the same as becoming part of the Irish Republic.
And personally I think the EU and UK should agree to leave such a decision to the Northern Irish, whatever they decide.

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 27, 2019, 10:13:18 AM
Is that how you see it?  By keeping NI in a customs union and partial regulatory alignment with the EU, it will be "handed over"?

I would disagree. A seperate economic status within the UK isn't the same as becoming part of the Irish Republic.
And personally I think the EU and UK should agree to leave such a decision to the Northern Irish, whatever they decide.

Q

Sorry, I was being a bit flippant. I don't think that will actually happen but I can see that our current impasse may fuel the argument for a united Ireland as it will for an independent Scotland.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on July 27, 2019, 10:46:28 AM
Sorry, I was being a bit flippant. I don't think that will actually happen but I can see that our currant impasse may fuel the argument for a united Ireland as it will for an independent Scotland.

I understand, and agree. :)

It's a pity that many do not understand that the severing of close political and economic ties between nations by Brexit, will be a significant destabilising factor for the UK as a country,  for Europe and ultimately for the balance of power in the world.

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on July 27, 2019, 12:10:21 PM
And thus the elections game has begun....

'Boris bounce’ lifts Tories at expense of Brexit party, poll shows (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/27/boris-bounce-lifts-tories-at-expense-of-brexit-party-poll-shows)

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 27, 2019, 10:32:29 PM
I understand, and agree. :)

It's a pity that many do not understand that the severing of close political and economic ties between nations by Brexit, will be a significant destabilising factor for the UK as a country,  for Europe and ultimately for the balance of power in the world.

Q

Totally agree.

It's awful watching the lemming-like rush to the cliff edge. The only thing that gives me any hope is the election of the new Liberal leader who speaks a lot of sense I think.

On a separate note I've now corrected the spelling of 'current' in my original post just in case anyone thought I was referring to a small dried fruit. ::)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on July 28, 2019, 04:24:05 AM
Totally agree.

It's awful watching the lemming-like rush to the cliff edge. The only thing that gives me any hope is the election of the new Liberal leader who speaks a lot of sense I think.

On a separate note I've now corrected the spelling of 'current' in my original post just in case anyone thought I was referring to a small dried fruit. ::)

I know nothing of the new Liberal leader but she came out with a great line - "Johnson is like a Trump who has been to Eton".

On a more serious note. If there is a General Election, which I think is inevitable, we all know where the Tories will stand. But what about Labour? I have not a clue but more worryingly I don't think they have either! Stay in, stay out or shake it all about.  :-\
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on July 28, 2019, 05:13:00 AM
Obviously not but there’s something you’re missing. Something very serious is happening in Britain: the people are starting to lose confidence in parliamentary democracy.

Can't blame them, can you?

Yes. I would never have had a referendum were I PM, especially not one where I were unwilling to accept losing.

Cameron's referendum is possibly the greatest blunder in UK's political history.

I think we should keep in mind that over several decades of EU membership it is the UK which has used every opportunity to play hardball and push through its economic and geopolitical objectives within the EU, and also obtain significant special privileges.

This.

Quote
Countries and alliances of countries look after their own interests first and foremost.

And this, too.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 28, 2019, 08:46:19 AM
I know nothing of the new Liberal leader but she came out with a great line - "Johnson is like a Trump who has been to Eton".

On a more serious note. If there is a General Election, which I think is inevitable, we all know where the Tories will stand. But what about Labour? I have not a clue but more worryingly I don't think they have either! Stay in, stay out or shake it all about.  :-\
The failure of Labour to offer effective opposition is very demoralising in our current political climate and I agree with Florestan's point about the disastrous decision to hold that predictably divisive Referendum.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on July 28, 2019, 09:24:17 AM
Newsflash: Jeremy Corbyn supports a general election and "he is ready"....

Ready for what? His ass being kicked? ::)

Boris will be delighted!

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christabel on July 29, 2019, 12:47:13 AM
Boris is shambolic, Corbyn is a communist terrorism sympathiser and anti-semitic hater.  What could possibly go wrong?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on July 29, 2019, 05:44:56 AM
The failure of Labour to offer effective opposition is very demoralising in our current political climate and I agree with Florestan's point about the disastrous decision to hold that predictably divisive Referendum.

Cameron called the Referendum playing clever politics as he saw Ukip as a threat electorally. He didn't think for one moment the result would not be remain as after the Scottish Referendum and Proportional Representation victories he was brimming with confidence. After causing chaos with a disastrous political move which could effect the financial stability of not only the UK, but the EU and even the world, he rides off in the sunset - what an idiot!   
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on July 29, 2019, 05:54:25 AM
Cameron called the Referendum playing clever politics as he saw Ukip as a threat electorally. He didn't think for one moment the result would not be remain as after the Scottish Referendum and Proportional Representation victories he was brimming with confidence. After causing chaos with a disastrous political move which could effect the financial stability of not only the UK, but the EU and even the world, he rides off in the sunset - what an idiot!   

Spot on! The greatest idiot in UK's political history.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: The new erato on July 29, 2019, 07:00:35 AM
Prepare to be an serfdom under the US and EU. So sad when the UK still could have been a significant force if it had pooled its resources with the EU.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: BasilValentine on July 29, 2019, 07:45:54 AM

John Oliver on Boris Johnson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXyO_MC9g3k
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on July 29, 2019, 10:24:30 AM
Prepare to be an serfdom under the US and EU.

No offense meant, but where would Norway be without US (read NATO) and EU? --- in other words, is not Norway today, right now, for all intents and purposes " a serfdom" under the US and EU?  ;D Please answer in all earnest (ie, supposing Norway is out of both NATO and EU agreements).
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: The new erato on July 29, 2019, 11:29:42 AM
Oh yes, but as a small and marginal country we have never been otherwise, or had aspirations of that order. International trade and cooperation have been the order of the Day. For the UK on the other hand, it will be a downfall and a spilt opportunity to still be an important International influence through aligning more closely with the rest of Europe.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on July 29, 2019, 11:38:26 AM
Oh yes, but as a small and marginal country we have never been otherwise, or had aspirations of that order. International trade and cooperation have been the order of the Day.

Thanks. Romania fits in to a tee --- and I'm only glad that it does. Better to be a serfdom under US and EU than under Russia.

Quote
For the UK on the other hand, it will be a downfall and a spilt opportunity to still be an important International influence through aligning more closely with the rest of Europe.

The UK did it all with its own hand --- if you know what I mean...  ;D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: The new erato on July 29, 2019, 11:53:12 AM
I do.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on July 29, 2019, 11:53:56 AM
I do.

 8)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 30, 2019, 01:59:03 AM
Prepare to be an serfdom under the US and EU. So sad when the UK still could have been a significant force if it had pooled its resources with the EU.

Agree with you 100%. Even Churchill said 'I look forward to a United States of Europe'. We will have much less say in world affairs outside the EU. Cameron, Johnson and Gove are to blame for this mess. And it is a big mess.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 30, 2019, 02:02:27 AM
Cameron called the Referendum playing clever politics as he saw Ukip as a threat electorally. He didn't think for one moment the result would not be remain as after the Scottish Referendum and Proportional Representation victories he was brimming with confidence. After causing chaos with a disastrous political move which could effect the financial stability of not only the UK, but the EU and even the world, he rides off in the sunset - what an idiot!   

Yes, I agree. As you may recall Cameron said 'I'm not a quitter' shortly before disappearing to earn huge amounts of money from after-dinner speeches and writing his, no doubt self-justifying, book.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on August 12, 2019, 09:25:11 PM
Agree with you 100%. Even Churchill said 'I look forward to a United States of Europe'. We will have much less say in world affairs outside the EU. Cameron, Johnson and Gove are to blame for this mess. And it is a big mess.

Churchill famously used the term 'United States of Europe' in his speech at Zürich, 1946:

'We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living. The process is simple. All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing.'
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on August 12, 2019, 10:55:07 PM
Churchill famously used the term 'United States of Europe' in his speech at Zürich, 1946:

'We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living. The process is simple. All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing.'

I found this article about that speech interesting:
https://www.ft.com/content/3d6bbabc-7122-11e6-a0c9-1365ce54b926
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on August 25, 2019, 03:47:51 AM
Just in case our UK members were wondering if they were in a safe hands - the loud orange guy from across the pond says so:

Trump says Boris Johnson is 'right man' to deliver Brexit (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/25/trump-says-boris-johnson-is-right-man-to-deliver-brexit)

Putin endorses Trump, who endorses Johnson....
And both Putin and Trump encourage Brexit...

Am I the only one who sees a disturbing pattern here?  ???

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on August 25, 2019, 09:43:20 AM
Poetin

Do you mean something like this?  :P

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1032/5675/products/The_Literary_Tea_Company_-_Edgar_Allan_Poe_Tall_Round_Tin_2000x.png?v=1556634514)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on August 25, 2019, 10:36:33 AM
Do you mean something like this?  :P

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1032/5675/products/The_Literary_Tea_Company_-_Edgar_Allan_Poe_Tall_Round_Tin_2000x.png?v=1556634514)

Sorry, Dutch spelling/transliteration...  :D  Corrected to the ways of Queen's English.

Anyway, the whole situation is definitely as dark and sinister as Poe's most gripping stories.

There are concerted efforts by the presidents of the United States of America and of Russia to throw Europe to the lions.
Trump considers Euope a burden that must be offloaded, Putin wants to regain the former Russian sphere of influence.
The UK is mistakenly - misguided by historical ties - seeking refuge in a closer alliance with the US and severing its links with the rest of Europe. Trump will pick its bones clean and reduce it to a sattelite state.....

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on August 25, 2019, 10:43:46 AM
Sorry, Dutch spelling/transliteration...  :D

I know, I just couldn't resist.   :)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: JBS on August 26, 2019, 11:13:07 AM
Sorry, Dutch spelling/transliteration...  :D  Corrected to the ways of Queen's English.

Anyway, the whole situation is definitely as dark and sinister as Poe's most gripping stories.

There are concerted efforts by the presidents of the United States of America and of Russia to throw Europe to the lions.
Trump considers Euope a burden that must be offloaded, Putin wants to regain the former Russian sphere of influence.
The UK is mistakenly - misguided by historical ties - seeking refuge in a closer alliance with the US and severing its links with the rest of Europe. Trump will pick its bones clean and reduce it to a sattelite state.....

Q

I think you are giving Trump too much credit. He doesn't think that far ahead. He likes the idea of a similar nationalist minded government in the UK.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: DaveF on August 28, 2019, 10:57:40 AM
Too appalled by today's events to comment coherently.  But I have torn the dedication page from the score of the symphony I composed in his honour and trampled it underfoot.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on August 28, 2019, 11:21:46 AM
Too appalled by today's events to comment coherently.  But I have torn the dedication page from the score of the symphony I composed in his honour and trampled it underfoot.

Good for you!
 :)

I also feel too angry to discuss it coherently.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: SimonNZ on September 06, 2019, 04:04:42 PM
Bumbling Boris's speech at police academy was classic Dom (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/05/bumbling-boriss-speech-at-police-academy-was-classic-dom)

"Boris Johnson’s speech at a police academy in Wakefield was the shitshow to end all shitshows. It made his dystopian performances at the dispatch box over the previous two days look like models of sanity and coherence. Even May’s P45, loss of voice and collapsing scenery at the Tory party conference weren’t as excruciating to watch as this. The Clown Prince completely out of his head. Acid? Heroin? Cocaine? Or a cocktail of all three? If the UK is to be a failed state, it has found its ideal leader. Classic Dom.

When half the country is shouting, “Stop the coup!” in protest at the prime minister shutting down parliament, choosing to launch your election campaign surrounded by police recruits at a training academy is not the best of looks. Either for the government or the police. But this was Boris. A man for whom other people are mere satellites orbiting his sun. Rushing on his run. He felt just like Jesus’s son. And he guessed that he just didn’t know. Classic Dom.

What followed was a full-on breakdown. Both physical and mental. The narcissistic wound exposed as an infected open sore. Most leaders at least turn up with a speech they have prepared. However deathless the prose. Johnson prefers to wing it. The arrogant stream of pure unconsciousness. The bumbling worked for £25K after-dinner speeches when everyone was a bit pissed. It would work here. Classic Dom.

He was pleased to be wherever it was he had come to. Ah yes, he thought, for the first time noticing the grim faces of the policemen and women whom he’d kept standing around waiting for more than an hour. Police. We needed more of them. Especially if he was going to waste their time like this. Classic Dom.

“I used to be …” His voice tailed off. Boris couldn’t quite remember what it was he used to be. Prime minister? Surely not. That would be ridiculous. Then he had the most excruciating flashback. A wild hallucination of an incriminating laptop and wine stains on the carpet. The last time he had been surrounded by so many police. Classic Dom.

Johnson started rambling, desperately trying to navigate a way back to the present. A caution. That’s what the police had done when he had been collared. “Um … er …” he began. How did it go again? “You do not have to say anything … um … you know how it goes, don’t you?” he continued, turning round to ask the police lined up behind him. They looked blankly ahead, avoiding his gaze. Who was this man? “If you fail to mention … shomefing on swhich shoo later rely.” By now he was slurring every other word. Classic Dom.

There was this plan. He didn’t want an election. Oh no! And when didn’t he want an election? 15 October. That was why he was making an election speech for an election he didn’t want. He didn’t want the election so much he was going to try a second time to fool the Labour party into giving him the election he didn’t want. Thank you and goodnight. His eyes closed briefly as he appeared to pass out. Classic Dom.

A few seconds later, he came to. What happened next? That was it. Questions. There were some people to ask him questions. Hello, Wakefield! Almost all the questions predictably focused on the resignation of his brother earlier that day. If he couldn’t even keep Jo in the party – let alone the other 21 other moderates he’d also slung out – what chance did he have of gaining the trust of the entire country? His mouth opened and closed, wordlessly. Classic Dom.

Finally he managed something approaching a sentence. “My brother has been a fantastic …” What was the job he had given his backstabbing, dumbass brother again? His mind had gone blank. Say something, Boris, he told himself. Something. Anything. Have a guess. “Science minister.” Shit. He knew he’d got it wrong. Jo was the sodding universities minister. Anyway, who cared? Jo was dead to him. Since when did a Johnson ever have a fit of conscience? It would tarnish the brand. Classic Dom.

Johnson continued ad-libbing. He’d die in a ditch if Britain wasn’t out of the EU by 31 October. Probably preferable to dying on his feet, as he was now. Just then, he heard a noise behind him and turned round. A policewoman had collapsed. He shrugged, took a sip of water, and carried on talking. She needed to toughen up a bit. Post-Brexit Britain was no place for the weak. Besides, his need was so clearly greater than hers. He was the World King. And if she died, he could always just recruit 20,001 new recruits. Classic Dom.

Slowly, the drugs began to wear off, and Johnson stumbled back indoors. “You nailed it,” said Dom and Dommer encouragingly. “You were so bad, you were brilliant. We’ve got them exactly where we want them.” Classic, classic Dom."
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on September 07, 2019, 12:12:51 AM
So, Boris Johnson has been convincingly defeated in his attempt to force a no-deal Brexit by a united front of opposition and Tory rebels.

But this game isn't over yet...

No chance in hell that Johnson is going to Brussels to ask for an extension. He will resign and the Queen will turn to Corbyn to form a government, which will immediately expose the divisions amongst Boris' opponents.

Now suppose some provisional caretaker government will have secured an extension on Brexit, elections will follow...

Johnson is going to reap all angry pro-Brexit voters that have been duped once again, possibly in a alliance with the Brexit Party. The Conservatives will be wiped out in Scotland and pro-European Tory moderates will switch to the Liberal Democrats.

Corbyn will fight the elections on a disastrous, fudged "Labour Brexit" ticket, and will be slaughtered since no Brexiter or Remainer will vote for that.

Johnson might actually win these elections by an (English) landslide and end up with a comfortable majority in Parliament, purged of any rebels.

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: "Harry" on September 07, 2019, 01:35:01 AM
So, Boris Johnson has been convincingly defeated in his attempt to force a no-deal Brexit by a united front of opposition and Tory rebels.

But this game isn't over yet...

No chance in hell that Johnson is going to Brussels to ask for an extension. He will resign and the Queen will turn to Corbyn to form a government, which will immediately expose the divisions amongst Boris' opponents.

Now suppose some provisional caretaker government will have secured an extension on Brexit, elections will follow...

Johnson is going to reap all angry pro-Brexit voters that have been duped once again, possibly in a alliance with the Brexit Party. The Conservatives will be wiped out in Scotland and pro-European Tory moderates will switch to the Liberal Democrats.

Corbyn will fight the elections on a disastrous, fudged "Labour Brexit" ticket, and will be slaughtered since no Brexiter or Remainer will vote for that.

Johnson might actually win these elections by an (English) landslide and end up with a comfortable majority in Parliament, purged of any rebels.

Q

Well yes that might be an option, but there are other possibilities. Do not forget that politics in its workings is alike to Mafia structures, and they have a lot of things up their sleeves. A rabbit could come out any moment. :)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on September 07, 2019, 01:44:07 AM
Well yes that might be an option, but there are other possibilities. Do not forget that politics in its workings is alike to Mafia structures, and they have a lot of things up their sleeves. A rabbit could come out any moment. :)

It's all very unpredictable due to the British "winner takes it all" electoral system.

If Johnson doesn't win, a hung parliament seems the most likely other option.

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on September 08, 2019, 12:31:09 AM
Bumbling Boris's speech at police academy was classic Dom (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/05/bumbling-boriss-speech-at-police-academy-was-classic-dom)

"Boris Johnson’s speech at a police academy in Wakefield was the shitshow to end all shitshows. It made his dystopian performances at the dispatch box over the previous two days look like models of sanity and coherence. Even May’s P45, loss of voice and collapsing scenery at the Tory party conference weren’t as excruciating to watch as this. The Clown Prince completely out of his head. Acid? Heroin? Cocaine? Or a cocktail of all three? If the UK is to be a failed state, it has found its ideal leader. Classic Dom.

When half the country is shouting, “Stop the coup!” in protest at the prime minister shutting down parliament, choosing to launch your election campaign surrounded by police recruits at a training academy is not the best of looks. Either for the government or the police. But this was Boris. A man for whom other people are mere satellites orbiting his sun. Rushing on his run. He felt just like Jesus’s son. And he guessed that he just didn’t know. Classic Dom.

What followed was a full-on breakdown. Both physical and mental. The narcissistic wound exposed as an infected open sore. Most leaders at least turn up with a speech they have prepared. However deathless the prose. Johnson prefers to wing it. The arrogant stream of pure unconsciousness. The bumbling worked for £25K after-dinner speeches when everyone was a bit pissed. It would work here. Classic Dom.

He was pleased to be wherever it was he had come to. Ah yes, he thought, for the first time noticing the grim faces of the policemen and women whom he’d kept standing around waiting for more than an hour. Police. We needed more of them. Especially if he was going to waste their time like this. Classic Dom.

“I used to be …” His voice tailed off. Boris couldn’t quite remember what it was he used to be. Prime minister? Surely not. That would be ridiculous. Then he had the most excruciating flashback. A wild hallucination of an incriminating laptop and wine stains on the carpet. The last time he had been surrounded by so many police. Classic Dom.

Johnson started rambling, desperately trying to navigate a way back to the present. A caution. That’s what the police had done when he had been collared. “Um … er …” he began. How did it go again? “You do not have to say anything … um … you know how it goes, don’t you?” he continued, turning round to ask the police lined up behind him. They looked blankly ahead, avoiding his gaze. Who was this man? “If you fail to mention … shomefing on swhich shoo later rely.” By now he was slurring every other word. Classic Dom.

There was this plan. He didn’t want an election. Oh no! And when didn’t he want an election? 15 October. That was why he was making an election speech for an election he didn’t want. He didn’t want the election so much he was going to try a second time to fool the Labour party into giving him the election he didn’t want. Thank you and goodnight. His eyes closed briefly as he appeared to pass out. Classic Dom.

A few seconds later, he came to. What happened next? That was it. Questions. There were some people to ask him questions. Hello, Wakefield! Almost all the questions predictably focused on the resignation of his brother earlier that day. If he couldn’t even keep Jo in the party – let alone the other 21 other moderates he’d also slung out – what chance did he have of gaining the trust of the entire country? His mouth opened and closed, wordlessly. Classic Dom.

Finally he managed something approaching a sentence. “My brother has been a fantastic …” What was the job he had given his backstabbing, dumbass brother again? His mind had gone blank. Say something, Boris, he told himself. Something. Anything. Have a guess. “Science minister.” Shit. He knew he’d got it wrong. Jo was the sodding universities minister. Anyway, who cared? Jo was dead to him. Since when did a Johnson ever have a fit of conscience? It would tarnish the brand. Classic Dom.

Johnson continued ad-libbing. He’d die in a ditch if Britain wasn’t out of the EU by 31 October. Probably preferable to dying on his feet, as he was now. Just then, he heard a noise behind him and turned round. A policewoman had collapsed. He shrugged, took a sip of water, and carried on talking. She needed to toughen up a bit. Post-Brexit Britain was no place for the weak. Besides, his need was so clearly greater than hers. He was the World King. And if she died, he could always just recruit 20,001 new recruits. Classic Dom.

Slowly, the drugs began to wear off, and Johnson stumbled back indoors. “You nailed it,” said Dom and Dommer encouragingly. “You were so bad, you were brilliant. We’ve got them exactly where we want them.” Classic, classic Dom."
Yes, I agree. It was excruciating to watch. Even the BBC reporter Vicki Young wondered whether he had dropped his speech on his way to the podium. The Gestapo look with the police lined up behind him spectacularly misfired.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Muzio on September 08, 2019, 11:20:20 AM
Did Boris Johnson Just Rope-a-Dope His Way into a Hard Brexit?
By Mark Hanna

As of Friday, September 6, an extension of three months to prevent the U.K. leaving the E.U. without a deal passed the Houses of Commons and Lords.  In order for that legislation to become law, there must be consent by the monarch — in this case, Queen Elizabeth II.  Once she assents, the bill becomes law.

While most everyone is considering her assent a formality on Monday, it should not quite yet be considered a fait accompli.  The queen can lawfully refuse assent or delay her approval, which would effectively veto the bill and keep it from becoming law, thereby paving the way to a No Deal Brexit on October 31.

There are two occasions when the monarch can and should, according to most academic experts in the matter, refuse assent.

According to Anne Twomey, professor of constitutional law at the the University of Sydney in her book The Veiled Sceptre, the first occasion is that where a "serious error is discovered in the bill."  No one is arguing that there is an error in the Remainers' meticulously crafted bill of extension.

But the second occasion in relation to royal assent, "the predominant academic view ... is that the Sovereign ... must act upon the advice of responsible ministers."

Professor of public law at the University of Glasgow School of Law Adam Tomkins concurs.  From his book Public Law: "If the monarch were given clear and firm Prime Ministerial advice that she should withhold her royal assent to a Bill which had passed through the Houses of Parliament, it seems to be the case that the monarch should follow that advice."

As Robert Craig noted, Twomey uses the example of where a new government that has the confidence of the House and "objects to a bill passed ... by a defeated predecessor ... then its advice to refuse assent to a bill should be accepted."

While this is not the exact set of circumstances the U.K. is facing, Boris Johnson has demonstrated he has the confidence of the House, triumphantly pointing out that "this is the first time in history that the opposition has voted to show confidence in Her Majesty's government" by refusing to allow an election and refusing to table a vote of no confidence.  Now all that's left is for Johnson to give clear and firm advice to the queen, who should then refuse to assent to the opposition's legislation to stop a No Deal Brexit.

If this is indeed BoJo's strategy, the U.K. Parliament has cut off its nose to spite its face.  Hyper-leftist and self-avowed Marxist Jeremy Corbyn, opposition leader of the Labor Party, has gleefully led this self-mutilation, stating, "When No Deal is off the table, once and for all, we should go back to the people in a public vote or a General Election to decide our country's future."

Using the limited time the U.K. Parliament had to address the possibility of a No Deal Brexit, Corbyn, the other opposition parties, and 21 Tories clearly decided to spend their few days left in Parliament obsessed with passing a law that demands that BoJo, against his own will and government, ask the E.U. for an extension of Article 50 until January 31, 2020.

But Johnson may have been way ahead of them.  He launched the epic play by proroguing parliament, which is basically closing the current Parliament session, until mid-October with the queen's approval.  This means that all Parliament business must be concluded by Monday (or at latest Thursday).  Once proroguing had occurred, the Remainers went into a Boris-induced tizzy to make sure a law was passed to stop him from taking the U.K. out of the E.U. without a deal on October 31, as long as no deal had been reached with the E.U. by October 19.

This is precisely where the PM has likely wanted them all along.  Employing a "rope a dope" strategy, Johnson has effectively forced Parliament to use all the time left, now that the proroguing has occurred and been declared legal by the U.K. courts, to mire itself in passing the Article 50 extension law.  Like the boxer Muhammad Ali, who made rope-a-dope famous, BoJo leaned back into parliament's ropes and took hit after hit, causing the opponents to not only wear themselves out, but provide time for him to get ready for his final counter-punch.

If the above analysis is correct, Johnson's knockout blow is happening now, as he meets the queen this weekend in order to clearly and firmly advise the queen to withhold assent.

Beautifully orchestrating and executing his stratagem, BoJo will have outwitted his opponents again in this well thought out fight plan by 1) forcing the opposition to spend the very short time they had to stop a No Deal Brexit mired in creating the extension legislation, then 2) sifting out the twenty-one traitors within his own Tory Party who voted against him, while at the same time 3) casually scheduling a meeting with the queen this weekend in order that 4) he can quietly advise the Queen not to assent to the bill he has called the "surrender" bill.

His opponents were so busy patting themselves on the back for their seemingly witty and unstoppable legislative efforts to thwart the will of the U.K.'s people (who voted 52% to 48% to leave the E.U. in 2016), heaping insults, lies, and half-truths on the prime minister and arguing among themselves how to take power, that they failed to see that Boris was, like any great boxer, simply setting them up.

His arguments to the queen are strong.  First, a group of disingenuous Tory traitors betrayed the government by voting with the non-government opposition.  The U.K. system is a parliamentary government, not a system of parliamentary rule.  The queen can reinforce this distinction by refusing assent upon receiving the P.M.'s advice, proving that the government elected by the people ultimately has the power.

Second, extensions have been passed before under Theresa May, but to no avail in bringing the U.K. to a better deal with the E.U.  What good would another extension to January 31, 2020 bring?  Even France's President Macron agrees here and has indicated he'll veto an extension anyway.  Germany's Chancellor Angela Merkel is also under pressure to veto any request for an extension.  Any one of the 27 E.U. member-leaders can veto an extension, thereby virtually assuring a No Deal Brexit on October 31.

Finally, the current House of Commons has tacitly given its vote of confidence to Boris Johnson as prime minister by not agreeing to an election and not tabling a motion of no confidence.  The Commons chose instead to focus on creating legislation that is opposed by the government, thereby giving Johnson an effective argument that the government was defied, not rejected.

And so we'll know in the next few days if this was the plan all along.  For if the prime minister is truly committed to his promise to bring the U.K. out of the E.U. on October 31, he'll advise the queen to refuse the bill.  In accordance with the unwritten constitution of the U.K., the queen will agree with her prime minister's advice.

If the queen agrees, Boris Johnson will have turned the Remainers' nightmarish Halloween Day extension ploy into a historic Reformation Day, indeed.

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/09/did_boris_johnson_just_ropeadope_his_way_into_a_hard_brexit.html#ixzz5yxxQhx6V

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: JBS on September 08, 2019, 11:31:00 AM
The American Thinker devotes itself to promoting Trumpian propaganda. So it is no surprise its coverage of Brexit is similarly detached from reality.

The simple answer is that in passing the legislation, Parliament demonstrated it has no confidence in the current government, and that by the rules of the UK constitution Johnson should have resigned.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: SimonNZ on September 08, 2019, 01:25:42 PM
I'm going to be using "BoJo The Clown" from now on.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Muzio on September 10, 2019, 12:11:20 PM
Report: PM Boris Johnson Has Simple Plan to Legally Stop Brexit Extension….
September 8, 2019

If this simple procedure is true, wow… It would mean all of last week’s parliamentary teeth gnashing by the usurping Never-Brexit MP’s was essentially irrelevant.

According to a Reuters report, Prime Minister Boris Johnson simply needs to attach a letter to the Brexit delay legislation saying the U.K. government officially does not request any extension beyond October 31st.  Then ignore it.  That was easy.

(Reuters) – British Prime Minister Boris Johnson has prepared plans to legally stop any Brexit extension, the Daily Telegraph bit.ly/2ZP87Yc reported late on Sunday.

Johnson’s advisers held a meeting on Sunday to counter the strategy to prevent the British parliament’s attempts at enforcing a three-month Brexit extension if no new deal is agreed, the newspaper reported.

A plan under consideration would see Johnson sending a letter alongside the request to extend Article 50 setting out that the government does not want any delay after Oct. 31, according to the report.  The prior remarks by President Trump (last week) now take on a new context:

Q Have you been following the situation in London with Boris Johnson and the Brexit vote?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, Boris is a friend of mine. And he’s — he’s going at it. There’s no question about it. He’s in there — I watched him this morning. He’s in there fighting.  And he knows how to win. Boris knows how to win. Don’t worry about him. He’s going to be okay.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-parliament-johnson-idUSKCN1VT0SK?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5d759ad0145a57000154149c&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter (https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-parliament-johnson-idUSKCN1VT0SK?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5d759ad0145a57000154149c&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: SimonNZ on September 10, 2019, 02:16:15 PM

Q Have you been following the situation in London with Boris Johnson and the Brexit vote?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, Boris is a friend of mine. And he’s — he’s going at it. There’s no question about it. He’s in there — I watched him this morning. He’s in there fighting.  And he knows how to win. Boris knows how to win. Don’t worry about him. He’s going to be okay.


Translation: "I have no idea what you're talking about, it can't have been covered on Fox and Friends, but countries are best ruled by the whims of individual muppet-haired narcissists. Obviously."
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Muzio on September 11, 2019, 10:28:22 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/BvShJVZ7/Pol-Jeremy-Corbyn-daily-planner.jpg)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on September 13, 2019, 11:16:06 PM
Interesting to see David Cameron's re-appearance and read his views. He is rather more contrite than I expected:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/13/david-cameron-accuses-boris-johnson-and-michael-gove-of-behaving-appallingly-over-brexit

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on September 21, 2019, 11:14:21 PM
This matches my own impressions:

Supreme court poised to rule against Boris Johnson, say legal experts (https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/sep/22/supreme-court-verdict-boris-johnson-prorogation)

So chances are that the Supreme court might clonclude that Boris has been a naughty boy!  :)

But the worst consequence of this would be that he involved HM the Queen in an unlawful and unconstitutional act....

Now, what would the political repercussions of that be?
In the good old times that would mean resignation and the end of any polital career... but in these troubled times of a breakdown of political integrity?  ::)

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on September 21, 2019, 11:28:03 PM
This matches my own impressions:

Supreme court poised to rule against Boris Johnson, say legal experts (https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/sep/22/supreme-court-verdict-boris-johnson-prorogation)

So chances are that the Supreme court might clonclude that Boris has been a naughty boy!  :)

But the worst consequence of this would be that he involved HM the Queen in an unlawful and unconstitutional act....

Now, what would the political repercussions of that be?
In the good old times that would mean resignation and the end of any polital career... but in these troubled times of a breakdown of political integrity?  ::)

Q

The probability of the Queen's abdicating might be higher than that of Johnson's resigning.  :laugh:
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on September 21, 2019, 11:37:08 PM
The probability of the Queen's abdicating might be higher than that of Johnson's resigning.  :laugh:

I think you are right....

Whether Boris Johnson will achieve Brexit, only time will tell.

But he definitely achieved a constitutional crisis and the end of the British political system as we knew it. Though he shares the blame for that with David Cameron and Theresa May.

Q

PS What will the future fate of the English judiciary be without the excellence and integrity of Scottish judges?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Papy Oli on September 25, 2019, 01:03:36 AM
Do we know yet when One is expected to unleash One's corgis on the Commons' front bench today ?  >:D ;D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on September 25, 2019, 10:50:33 AM
I think that the Conservatives will eventually get rid of Johnson when they start to see him as an electoral liability rather that asset. The misleading of the Queen will have gone down very badly.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 25, 2019, 03:20:11 PM
The American Thinker devotes itself to promoting Trumpian propaganda. So it is no surprise its coverage of Brexit is similarly detached from reality.

The simple answer is that in passing the legislation, Parliament demonstrated it has no confidence in the current government, and that by the rules of the UK constitution Johnson should have resigned.

I suppose Boris has no more regard fir the UK Constitution, than Trump has for the American.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on September 25, 2019, 09:07:48 PM
So, Boris has indeed been a naughty boy but he - "with all respect to the Supreme court" - "disagrees profoundly."

As if that even matters?  ???
He is acting as if he is in political debate with the court, which shows he is actively undermining and politicizing its independent position.

Anyway, I feel that Johnson's opponents are waking up to the fact that he is not going to ask for an extension in Brussels and that they have to vote him out and install a caretaker government to do the job.

After that.... elections.... Boris might win, or it will be a hung parliament. In both cases: more chaos ahead...  ::)

Q


Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on September 25, 2019, 09:11:09 PM
Did Johnson say that he would NOT honour the Benn Act last night?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on September 25, 2019, 09:26:56 PM
Did Johnson say that he would NOT honour the Benn Act last night?

No, to my knowledge he did not say that...

But I can't imagine him asking for an extension - that would be political suicide.

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on September 25, 2019, 09:37:24 PM
Disgraceful show last night in HoC, I woke up feeling very depressed about it.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on September 25, 2019, 09:56:33 PM
Disgraceful show last night in HoC, I woke up feeling very depressed about it.


I can imagine...  ::)

And I don’t want to depress you any further but historically, when a political system is overtaken by populism - that is the sounding of its death knell...

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Iota on September 26, 2019, 04:14:34 AM
I suppose Boris has no more regard fir the UK Constitution, than Trump has for the American.

I think he has little regard for anything outside of his own wellbeing.
I do think what he's doing is very similar to what Trump seemed to do with voters in the rust belt et al, with claims of draining the swamp of Washington, in that he (Johnson) is portraying Parliament as the enemy of the people (as if he gives a toss about them) and himself their embattled saviour fighting to make their voice heard. Though really most MP's are just trying to stop a No Deal I think, which is not defying the referendum result, as he claims.

But, much as I am a Remainer, I think the Lib Dems policy of revoking Article 50, without an interim second referendum, is anti-democratic and wrong, and only adds fuel to the Leavers anti-Westminster grievances. There is a chance of course that a general election would come to be seen as a second referendum itself, thereby giving the Lib Dems more of a mandate to take such a step, but that seems a rather remote possibility. I personally feel a second referendum would be the most clarifying route to take, I think enough has changed to justify it.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 26, 2019, 04:49:59 AM
The husband of murdered MP Jo Cox spoke extremely eloquently and with great good sense on national UK radio this morning.  He was NOT promoting one side of the debate over the other but simply stating that one of his wife's abiding philosophies was to respect and listen to the opinions of those with whom she disagreed.  A consequence of social media is that many people now only seek those who echo their own/current position.  Very little - on any subject - seems open to true debate anymore
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on September 26, 2019, 04:52:01 AM
A consequence of social media is that many people now only seek those who echo their own/current position.

We have a conspicuous example right here on GMG...   ;D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on September 26, 2019, 07:31:44 AM
Disgraceful show last night in HoC, I woke up feeling very depressed about it.
+1
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on September 26, 2019, 08:55:36 PM
Did Johnson say that he would NOT honour the Benn Act last night?

Boris Johnson may be planning to bypass a law blocking a no-deal Brexit by issuing an order to suspend it until after the scheduled date of Britain’s EU withdrawal on 31 October, former prime minister Sir John Major has warned.

The order could be passed by ministers acting in the Privy Council without the involvement of parliament or the Queen, said Sir John, who denounced the tactic as “a piece of political chicanery that no one should ever forgive or forget”.


I assume John Major has some  inside information...

Such a move by Johnson would undoubtedly lead to another case before the Supreme court....

The safest option for the opposition is to remove him from office.

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on September 26, 2019, 11:37:02 PM
The husband of murdered MP Jo Cox spoke extremely eloquently and with great good sense on national UK radio this morning.  He was NOT promoting one side of the debate over the other but simply stating that one of his wife's abiding philosophies was to respect and listen to the opinions of those with whom she disagreed.  A consequence of social media is that many people now only seek those who echo their own/current position.  Very little - on any subject - seems open to true debate anymore
I agree. Johnson said that the best way of honouring her memory was to deliver Brexit. And yet she was a passionate campaigner for Remain.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: DaveF on September 27, 2019, 01:02:22 AM
Boris Johnson may be planning to bypass a law blocking a no-deal Brexit by issuing an order to suspend it until after the scheduled date of Britain’s EU withdrawal on 31 October, former prime minister Sir John Major has warned.

The order could be passed by ministers acting in the Privy Council without the involvement of parliament or the Queen, said Sir John, who denounced the tactic as “a piece of political chicanery that no one should ever forgive or forget”.


Heresy!  :o :o The previous appeal to the Supreme Court, and the passing of the Benn Act, are "political chicanery".  The use of a Privy Council order to bypass parliament is "carrying out the will of the people". 
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on October 27, 2019, 02:30:38 AM
Labour is dragging its feet.... but the Lib Dems and the SNP are willing to support general elections through an amendment of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_2011):

Lib Dems offer Johnson route to December election (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/26/boris-johnson-no-brexit-until-january-block-christmas-general-election)


Now, will Boris Johnson win these elections?


BTW If I were the SNP, I would make a 2nd independence referendum part of the deal. Because if Johnson really does win the elections, Scotland might want to get out of the UK ASAP.....
And conveniently for Johnson, a departure of Scotland will change the balance of power in Westminster and solidify the position of the Conservatives for decades: English Tories have lost the slightest reason to care about the union (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/27/english-tories-have-lost-the-slightest-reason-to-care-about-the-union).
A Johnson-SNP win-win.....  ::)

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on October 29, 2019, 11:01:26 PM
The moment of truth for Johnson has arrived: elections are coming!


Parliament breaks Brexit deadlock with vote for 12 December election (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/29/uk-general-election-confirmed-for-12-december-after-brexit-stalemate)

I still think it's going to be either a landslide for Johnson or a hung parliament.
The SNP is set to take all Scottish seats, and Labour is likely to be slaughtered.
Just my two cents...  8)

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on October 30, 2019, 01:32:53 AM
The moment of truth for Johnson has arrived: elections are coming!


Parliament breaks Brexit deadlock with vote for 12 December election (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/29/uk-general-election-confirmed-for-12-december-after-brexit-stalemate)

I still think it's going to be either a landslide for Johnson or a hung parliament.
The SNP is set to take all Scottish seats, and Labour is likely to be slaughtered.
Just my two cents...  8)

Q

The resurgence of the Liberal party make predictions difficult. Their new leader Jo Swinson is playing a blinder. She has positioned the party to be first port of call for dyed in the wool remainers. As it stands now if this election is only about Brexit the voters who wish for Brexit to be revoked or a second referendum will migrate to Liberal not Labour.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on October 30, 2019, 08:36:08 AM
China balks at Korean musicians in an American orchestra
 https://www.violinist.com/blog/rufe/201910/27966/ (https://www.violinist.com/blog/rufe/201910/27966/)

Glad Eastman had a rethink.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on October 30, 2019, 09:02:49 AM
The resurgence of the Liberal party make predictions difficult. Their new leader Jo Swinson is playing a blinder. She has positioned the party to be first port of call for dyed in the wool remainers. As it stands now if this election is only about Brexit the voters who wish for Brexit to be revoked or a second referendum will migrate to Liberal not Labour.

If you want to keep the tories out, a vote for Liberal is not always going to be effective. If that’s your aim, in a seat like mine, held by a Tory with Labour second place, it’s probably best to vote Labour.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on October 31, 2019, 12:45:43 AM
If you want to keep the tories out, a vote for Liberal is not always going to be effective. If that’s your aim, in a seat like mine, held by a Tory with Labour second place, it’s probably best to vote Labour.

Yes, that is probably right. The only thing I would say with both Tories and Labour become more right/left extreme can a supporter of one hold his/her nose and vote for the other? It shows up the difference between a tactical and a protest vote.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on October 31, 2019, 12:50:13 AM
Yes, that is probably right. The only thing I would say with both Tories and Labour become more right/left extreme can a supporter of one hold his/her nose and vote for the other? It shows up the difference between a tactical and a protest vote.

I don't trust the tories to manage the post Brexit negotiations in a way which will preserve the things I hold most dear. Despite Labour's ineptitude, they are the lesser of the two evils.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on November 03, 2019, 10:01:32 AM
Boris Johnson's saving grace in the upcoming elections will be that most people really dislike Jeremy Corbyn...

How sad is that?  ::)

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: JBS on November 03, 2019, 05:39:18 PM
Boris Johnson's saving grace in the upcoming elections will be that most people really dislike Jeremy Corbyn...

How sad is that?  ::)

Q

Even sadder... Jeremy Corbyn's saving grace in the upcoming elections will be that most people really dislike Boris Johnson.

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on November 03, 2019, 10:20:57 PM
Even sadder... Jeremy Corbyn's saving grace in the upcoming elections will be that most people really dislike Boris Johnson.

The last bit is certainly true... But I don't think that many Conservative voters will vote Labour instead, more likely Lib Dem.

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on November 04, 2019, 12:18:34 AM
The last bit is certainly true... But I don't think that many Conservative voters will vote Labour instead, more likely Lib Dem.

Q

I think the Tories are more worried about the Brexit party then the Lib Dems, but I agree they won't vote Labour.

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 10, 2019, 08:18:37 AM
Corbyn will likely go the way of Kinnock - always the brides maid.

By the way, have you seen the new Love Actually style Johnson ad? It's actually quite effective...
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Iota on December 10, 2019, 04:27:45 PM
A musical exposition of what some might feel is Mr Johnson's most salient quality ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_G-FBSf1UI
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on December 11, 2019, 09:37:22 AM
French TV just had quite a nice discussion, C’est dans l’air on TV5. The line was that Corbyn’s failure is in not uniting anti Brexit parties, and not being able to turn the focus of the campaign away from Brexit. BJ’s success is in uniting pro Brexit parties and keeping the focus on Brexit.

 
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on December 11, 2019, 11:16:03 PM
Crunch time for Boris today....

Will he get his majority or will it be a hung parliament?  ::)

I wish our UK voters wisdom in making their choice. Their choice will be crucial for the future of their country, and of Europe as well....

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: jess on December 12, 2019, 01:06:45 AM
am feeling tired and i misread the thread title as 'Boris Johnson is Dead' but now I realise that's just wishful thinking
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on December 12, 2019, 06:22:53 AM
I hope everyone has seen this  -- I can't remember anything remotely like it in British politics before.

https://www.youtube.com/v/JWTOu5ul9HE
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: steve ridgway on December 12, 2019, 06:35:37 AM
I hope everyone has seen this  -- I can't remember anything remotely like it in British politics before.

https://www.youtube.com/v/JWTOu5ul9HE

I hadn't seen the video but this simplistic message to everyone who is sick of the whole Brexit process has been repeated a lot recently.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on December 12, 2019, 09:14:19 AM
Oven ready . . . Blue Peter . . .
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: André on December 12, 2019, 02:13:41 PM
BoJo won the lottery.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on December 12, 2019, 02:33:35 PM
A historic moment.

End of the UK, independence of Scotland, unification of Ireland (over time), loss of Gibraltar and the two bases on Cyprus, Channell Islands and Isle of Man loosing their ties with the UK and opting for the EU instead. And what will be the effect on Wales? At least more political and cultural autonomy in the future, isn't it?  Yet another troubling question, what will happen to all the territories oversea?  ???
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 12, 2019, 02:52:01 PM
A historic moment.

End of the UK, independence of Scotland, unification of Ireland (over time), loss of Gibraltar and the two bases on Cyprus, Channell Islands and Isle of Man loosing their ties with the UK and opting for the EU instead.

Hold your horses, young man!

Questions:

1. What will be the currency of a putatively independent Scotland?

2. A putatively independent Scotland will have at least one vote against his accession to the EU, thus blocking the whole thing. Can you guess which country will vote against?

3. Are you really arguing that, over time, the DUP and the Fianna Fail will agree to live and compete peacefully in the same country?

4. How is Gibraltar going to be lost by UK? And to whom?

5. How are the two bases on Cyprus, Channell Islands and Isle of Man going to sever their ties with UK and become part of the EU?

TIA for your answers.




Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 12, 2019, 02:53:47 PM
A historic moment.

End of the UK, independence of Scotland, unification of Ireland (over time), loss of Gibraltar and the two bases on Cyprus, Channell Islands and Isle of Man loosing their ties with the UK and opting for the EU instead. And what will be the effect on Wales? At least more political and cultural autonomy in the future, isn't it?  Yet another troubling question, what will happen to all the territories oversea?  ???

Yes. IMO it's a complete disaster for the UK.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 12, 2019, 02:55:48 PM
Yes. IMO it's a complete disaster for the UK.

Oh, come on, Jeffrey! Would you care to answer my questions above?

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 12, 2019, 03:05:27 PM
I don't quite get it, folks! Democratic, free elections have been called --- they took place --- yet their result is a complete disaster!

Why?

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 12, 2019, 03:11:29 PM
Crunch time for Boris today....

Will he get his majority or will it be a hung parliament?  ::)

I wish our UK voters wisdom in making their choice. Their choice will be crucial for the future of their country, and of Europe as well....

Q

They done good. 191 mistakes.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on December 12, 2019, 03:27:14 PM
I don't quite get it, folks! Democratic, free elections have been called --- they took place --- yet their result is a complete disaster!

Why?
Partly because the 'system' is hardly - to put it nicely - democratic at all, fortifying extremes only.
(Another one of course, that every place on earth monopolized by the Murdoch media is vulnerable to all kinds of distraction, Russian trolls & algorythms also helping, but the MMM probably a decisive factor over the last decades. Democracy cannot stand without Journalism, as proven by what we see occurring in US, UK and also Israel. But that's another story.  ;D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 12, 2019, 03:31:41 PM
that's another story.  ;D

That's actually blah blah blah.

Please answer this, TIA:

Questions:

1. What will be the currency of a putatively independent Scotland?

2. A putatively independent Scotland will have at least one vote against his accession to the EU, thus blocking the whole thing. Can you guess which country will vote against?

3. Are you really arguing that, over time, the DUP and the Fianna Fail will agree to live and compete peacefully in the same country?

4. How is Gibraltar going to be lost by UK? And to whom?

5. How are the two bases on Cyprus, Channell Islands and Isle of Man going to sever their ties with UK and become part of the EU?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on December 12, 2019, 03:34:01 PM
Please answer this, TIA:
That's actually blah blah blah.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Iota on December 12, 2019, 03:56:54 PM
It seems an unstoppable tide, inward looking-ness and regressiveness seem in the ascendant. Depressing indeed. : (
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 12, 2019, 03:57:50 PM
Oh, come on, Jeffrey! Would you care to answer my questions above?

Oh, I think your points are valid Andrei, although I think that there is a much stronger case for Scottish independence now. My despondency is due to the thought of the UK being governed by a swaggering bully for the next four years at least. I find it deeply depressing and can't stand our charlatan of a prime minister. I also think that the first past the post system is now anachronistic and we need a PR system which would be much more democratic.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 12, 2019, 04:02:40 PM
It seems an unstoppable tide, inward looking-ness and regressiveness seem in the ascendant. Depressing indeed. : (

Yes, the UK will be much weaker now. I can't stand the rise of the Little Englander, Xenophobic triumphalism which will no doubt follow tonight's debacle.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 12, 2019, 04:11:03 PM
Yes, the UK will be much weaker now. I can't stand the rise of the Little Englander, Xenophobic triumphalism which will no doubt follow tonight's debacle.

+1 to your recent posts...... sadly..........
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 12, 2019, 06:32:50 PM
It's hard to keep up.

The referendum must be rejected!
We need PR! Much more democratic!

Hmmm.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christabel on December 12, 2019, 08:39:33 PM
Oh, I think your points are valid Andrei, although I think that there is a much stronger case for Scottish independence now. My despondency is due to the thought of the UK being governed by a swaggering bully for the next four years at least. I find it deeply depressing and can't stand our charlatan of a prime minister. I also think that the first past the post system is now anachronistic and we need a PR system which would be much more democratic.

Spoken like a true supporter of democracy;  if you don't like the decision pour bile over the people and keep doing it until you get the decision you like. 
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christabel on December 12, 2019, 08:40:50 PM
Even sadder... Jeremy Corbyn's saving grace in the upcoming elections will be that most people really dislike Boris Johnson.

Absolutely priceless comment.  Really enjoying the BJ win and not sorry for the loss of the vicious anti-semite Corbyn and his cardigan communists.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christabel on December 12, 2019, 08:42:33 PM
am feeling tired and i misread the thread title as 'Boris Johnson is Dead' but now I realise that's just wishful thinking

A perennially undergraduate remark from an extremely competitive field.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: steve ridgway on December 12, 2019, 09:12:24 PM
Hold your horses, young man!

Questions:

1. What will be the currency of a putatively independent Scotland?

2. A putatively independent Scotland will have at least one vote against his accession to the EU, thus blocking the whole thing. Can you guess which country will vote against?

3. Are you really arguing that, over time, the DUP and the Fianna Fail will agree to live and compete peacefully in the same country?

4. How is Gibraltar going to be lost by UK? And to whom?

5. How are the two bases on Cyprus, Channell Islands and Isle of Man going to sever their ties with UK and become part of the EU?

TIA for your answers.

4 & 5 - Cyprus and Spain would be able to claim these were enclaves within EU countries occupied by a non-EU country and so the EU as a whole would support them.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 12, 2019, 09:16:49 PM
4 & 5 - Cyprus and Spain would be able to claim these were enclaves within EU countries occupied by a non-EU country and so the EU as a whole would support them.

Ah. Pixie dust.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 12, 2019, 09:18:36 PM
It's hard to keep up.

The referendum must be rejected!
We need PR! Much more democratic!

Hmmm.

PR is more democratic. At the moment the Lib Dems, for example, have 12% of the vote but nothing like 12% in the seats of the HOC.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 12, 2019, 09:21:43 PM
Spoken like a true supporter of democracy;  if you don't like the decision pour bile over the people and keep doing it until you get the decision you like.

PR is more democratic and I can't stand Boris Johnson - I'm not sure that constitutes 'pouring bile over the people...'
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ratliff on December 12, 2019, 09:46:09 PM
There seems to be an implicit assumption that Boris Johnson will now be able to carry our Brexit with his fresh majority. For all we know he is headed for more failed votes and stalemate...
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 12, 2019, 09:50:46 PM
PR is more democratic and I can't stand Boris Johnson - I'm not sure that constitutes 'pouring bile over the people...'
Maybe it is. A referendum is still more democratic. Yet you rejected the referendum when your side lost it. You want more democracy when it suits you and less when it doesn’t.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: steve ridgway on December 12, 2019, 09:51:24 PM
Hold your horses, young man!

Questions:

1. What will be the currency of a putatively independent Scotland?

2. A putatively independent Scotland will have at least one vote against his accession to the EU, thus blocking the whole thing. Can you guess which country will vote against?

3. Are you really arguing that, over time, the DUP and the Fianna Fail will agree to live and compete peacefully in the same country?

4. How is Gibraltar going to be lost by UK? And to whom?

5. How are the two bases on Cyprus, Channell Islands and Isle of Man going to sever their ties with UK and become part of the EU?

TIA for your answers.

1 - Scottish Pounds until they ask to join the EU.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 12, 2019, 09:52:40 PM
There seems to be an implicit assumption that Boris Johnson will now be able to carry our Brexit with his fresh majority. For all we know he is headed for more failed votes and stalemate...
Let’s bet. Propose a date and let’s see if we can agree a wager.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on December 12, 2019, 09:53:28 PM
PR is more democratic. At the moment the Lib Dems, for example, have 12% of the vote but nothing like 12% in the seats of the HOC.

Of course it is, not only more, but the essential difference between ´to be a democracy or no democacry´ as your Poet would put it. Under democratic circumstances, not only would the Liberal Democrats own over 20 percent of the vote, but others would be represented as well (and there would be no Brexit of course).

My comment: bullshit on stilts.
Once again your rather choleric temperament - you would call it Latin, I guess it's better being called Andrei - propells you to ask for the obvious. As Journalism happens to be my special interest - wrote some books - your low opinion doesn't bother me, but your personal health does. Are you okay?  ???
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: steve ridgway on December 12, 2019, 09:54:35 PM
There seems to be an implicit assumption that Boris Johnson will now be able to carry our Brexit with his fresh majority. For all we know he is headed for more failed votes and stalemate...

I believe the Conservative rebel MPs have now been replaced.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 12, 2019, 09:57:00 PM
Of course it is, not only more, but the essential difference between ´to be a democracy or no democacry´ as your Poet would put it. Under democratic circumstances, not only would the Liberal Democrats own over 20 percent of the vote, but others would be represented as well (and there would be no Brexit of course).
Once again your rather choleric temperament - you would call it Latin, I guess it's better being called Andrei - propells you to ask for the obvious. As Journalism happens to be my special interest - wrote some books - your low opinion doesn't bother me, but your personal health does. Are you okay?  ???
Under “democratic circumstances “ the referendum would have settled it.  Remind me who won?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on December 12, 2019, 09:57:45 PM
Under “democratic circumstances “ the referendum would have settled it.  Remind me who won?
A girl called Lies.  :D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: steve ridgway on December 12, 2019, 10:00:08 PM
Under “democratic circumstances “ the referendum would have settled it.  Remind me who won?

True as that was a genuine two option vote for an action rather than a party and where every vote counted equally rather than only those in marginal constituencies.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 12, 2019, 11:08:15 PM
Maybe it is. A referendum is still more democratic. Yet you rejected the referendum when your side lost it. You want more democracy when it suits you and less when it doesn’t.

I supported a second referendum (actually third) as many others did, as the consequences of Brexit have become clearer. Also, I'm old enough to have voted in the original referendum of 1975 (first time I could vote) when the country voted to stay in the EEC (EU). At that time I voted to leave out of loyalty to the Commonwealth. That result has been conveniently forgotten (Johnson has just referred to 'removing the threat' of a second referendum. In point of fact it would have been a third referendum).. The only time I ever voted for anything or anyone who actually got elected was for Jo Swinson as Liberal leader and look how well that has ended. At least she spoke with great dignity after losing her seat and referenced the wave of nationalism which is now sweeping the country. She said that millions will look with dread at the result of this election. I'm one of those but that does not mean that I think that the result should be overturned. I want the UK to remain united and to have a voice in world affairs. I thought that was much more likely as a member of the EU.

Good morning (from the UK) everyone.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 13, 2019, 12:21:07 AM
Once again your rather choleric temperament - you would call it Latin, I guess it's better being called Andrei

Hah hah! Touche!  :D

Quote
- propells you to ask for the obvious. As Journalism happens to be my special interest - wrote some books - your low opinion doesn't bother me, but your personal health does. Are you okay?  ???

I am, thanks for asking and I hope you are too.  :-*
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Jo498 on December 13, 2019, 02:13:44 AM
I think the main cause in the "long run" is the largely undemocratic nature of the EU. I used to be neutral/mildly positive about the EU, but in the last 10-15 years I have come to the conclusion that it really is a lobbycratic nightmare. It's putting any Latin american "banana republic" to shame in its open or loosely covered up corruption (how can someone like Lagarde ever be regarded fit for office after the scandals in her past?!?!?), is devouring billlions and overall very often "against the people" (or at least against the 90% who ar employées, small business etc.).

Therefore I am not at all surprised that the Brits acted as they did. It might not improve things for them, but anything that weakens the EU and hastens a rollback to a more loosely organized union (like it used to be in 70s and 80s) could be good. I am not optimistic, though, because the Merkels and Macrons think that we need to get ever closer and more empire-like to stand up against Russia, China and the US.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 13, 2019, 02:24:43 AM
4 & 5 - Cyprus and Spain would be able to claim these were enclaves within EU countries occupied by a non-EU country and so the EU as a whole would support them.

I remind you that both Cyprus and Spain have their own (grave) problems with internal secessionism. Incorporating territories seceded from another nation would undermine their own claims to territorial sovereignty. This is also the reason why Spain would probably not recognize an independent Scotland, let alone vot for her accession to the EU. Actually, an independent Scotland is the last thing EU would want to see, because it would open a can of worms compared to which Brexit would look like a walk in the park at noon.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 13, 2019, 02:26:35 AM
1 - Scottish Pounds until they ask to join the EU.

Do you really think it's that easy? Fiat Scottish Pound and here it is?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 13, 2019, 04:54:18 AM
Oh, I think your points are valid Andrei, although I think that there is a much stronger case for Scottish independence now. My despondency is due to the thought of the UK being governed by a swaggering bully for the next four years at least. I find it deeply depressing and can't stand our charlatan of a prime minister.

Frustration and anger is something I've felt myself over many Romanian elections, Jeffrey, so I can understand you. But given that Labor Party has plunged headlong into Corbynism, could it really have been otherwise? Probably ordinary people have had enough of all the tergiversations and procrastinations and incertitude and voted for the party which, for all their faults, is most likely to get the Brexit done at last.

Honestly, I think the best thing for Britain now is to get the bloody Brexit done as soon as possible. If things go well thereafter, all right. If they don't, you can always apply for EU membership.  :D

Quote
I also think that the first past the post system is now anachronistic and we need a PR system which would be much more democratic.

PR ensures a better and more fair representation, I agree, but I don't see any chance of it being implemented in UK any time soon.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 13, 2019, 04:54:21 AM
I think the main cause in the "long run" is the largely undemocratic nature of the EU. I used to be neutral/mildly positive about the EU, but in the last 10-15 years I have come to the conclusion that it really is a lobbycratic nightmare. It's putting any Latin american "banana republic" to shame in its open or loosely covered up corruption (how can someone like Lagarde ever be regarded fit for office after the scandals in her past?!?!?), is devouring billlions and overall very often "against the people" (or at least against the 90% who ar employées, small business etc.).

Therefore I am not at all surprised that the Brits acted as they did. It might not improve things for them, but anything that weakens the EU and hastens a rollback to a more loosely organized union (like it used to be in 70s and 80s) could be good. I am not optimistic, though, because the Merkels and Macrons think that we need to get ever closer and more empire-like to stand up against Russia, China and the US.
Interesting. I rather regretted that we left EFTA (if we ever did!) which was an economic rather than political arrangement.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 13, 2019, 04:56:42 AM
Frustration and anger is something I've felt myself over many Romanian elections, Jeffrey, so I can understand you. But given that Labor Party has plunged headlong into Corbynism, could it really have been otherwise? Probably ordinary people have had enough of all the tergiversations and procrastinations and incertitude and voted for the party which, for all their faults, is most likely to get the Brexit done at last.

Honestly, I think the best thing for Britain now is to get the bloody Brexit done as soon as possible. If things go well thereafter, all right. If they don't, you can always apply for EU membership.  :D

PR ensures a better and more fair representation, I agree, but I don't see any chance of it being implemented in UK any time soon.

Largely agree with you Andrei. Anyhow, I couldn't argue with you today as it's your birthday!
:-)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 13, 2019, 04:58:27 AM
Largely agree with you Andrei. Anyhow, I couldn't argue with you today as it's your birthday!
:-)

 :D  :-*
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 13, 2019, 06:31:13 AM
Largely agree with you Andrei. Anyhow, I couldn't argue with you today as it's your birthday!
:-)
Don’t tell him that. Suddenly he'll have several hundred birthdays a year!
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Wanderer on December 13, 2019, 06:56:32 AM
I remind you that both Cyprus and Spain have their own (grave) problems with internal secessionism. Incorporating territories seceded from another nation would undermine their own claims to territorial sovereignty. This is also the reason why Spain would probably not recognize an independent Scotland, let alone vot for her accession to the EU. Actually, an independent Scotland is the last thing EU would want to see, because it would open a can of worms compared to which Brexit would look like a walk in the park at noon.

Just to be clear, Cyprus does not have an "internal secessionism" problem, it has an invasion and illegal occupation problem. We should not fall into the trap of Turkish propaganda that says otherwise. Carry on.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 13, 2019, 07:16:08 AM
I remind you that both Cyprus and Spain have their own (grave) problems with internal secessionism. Incorporating territories seceded from another nation would undermine their own claims to territorial sovereignty. This is also the reason why Spain would probably not recognize an independent Scotland, let alone vot for her accession to the EU. Actually, an independent Scotland is the last thing EU would want to see, because it would open a can of worms compared to which Brexit would look like a walk in the park at noon.

Yet more reasons to support Scottish independence!

I think people need to take more seriously the resistance to homogenization.  A lot of smaller groups want to preserve their culture and feel that the larger units of which they are part are inimical to that. Not to be dismissed lightly.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: André on December 13, 2019, 07:39:45 AM
Yet more reasons to support Scottish independence!

I think people need to take more seriously the resistance to homogenization.  A lot of smaller groups want to preserve their culture and feel that the larger units of which they are part are inimical to that. Not to be dismissed lightly.

Agreed.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 13, 2019, 07:47:35 AM
Just to be clear, Cyprus does not have an "internal secessionism" problem, it has an invasion and illegal occupation problem. We should not fall into the trap of Turkish propaganda that says otherwise. Carry on.

Yes, of course.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Jo498 on December 13, 2019, 08:24:46 AM
Yet more reasons to support Scottish independence!

I think people need to take more seriously the resistance to homogenization.  A lot of smaller groups want to preserve their culture and feel that the larger units of which they are part are inimical to that. Not to be dismissed lightly.
The current milieu juste in Germany (and most of Western Europe) thinks that there is no identifiable (e.g.) German culture beyond common language (this was famously said by a second rank German politician of Asia minor or Levante heritage), but that there is some vague European culture.
They think that (at least in theory) Kurds, Yanomami, Palestinians have a right to defend their own culture and have areas where they can ask other people to not enter or leave (and we should support them in their struggle to keep their identity and culture get these regional rights). They are vague about Catalans and Scots having a similar right and they are adamant that Poles or Thuringians don't have it (or at least shouldn't have it) and if the latter think otherwise they are far right wing. For some unknown reason nationalism is only bad at a certain scale, it's o.k. at most very local scales and also at fairly large scales (like Europe or "the West") but among the most evil things in history at the national scale. It's mind boggling.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: steve ridgway on December 13, 2019, 08:26:37 AM
Do you really think it's that easy? Fiat Scottish Pound and here it is?

No, I am just thinking they will want to continue using UK Pounds, won’t be able to but will want to call their currency Pounds or similar as the Republic of Ireland did, and maybe try to maintain a fixed exchange rate as well, then will be told by the EU they won’t get special terms but will have to use the Euro like everyone else, etc. etc. But they needn’t expect me to sort the mess out for them :P.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: steve ridgway on December 13, 2019, 08:33:36 AM
The current milieu juste in Germany (and most of Western Europe) thinks that there is no identifiable (e.g.) German culture beyond common language (this was famously said by a second rank German politician of Asia minor or Levante heritage), but that there is some vague European culture.
They think that (at least in theory) Kurds, Yanomami, Palestinians have a right to defend their own culture and have areas where they can ask other people to not enter or leave (and we should support them in their struggle to keep their identity and culture get these regional rights). They are vague about Catalans and Scots having a similar right and they are adamant that Poles or Thuringians don't have it (or at least shouldn't have it) and if the latter think otherwise they are far right wing. For some unknown reason nationalism is only bad at a certain scale, it's o.k. at most very local scales and also at fairly large scales (like Europe or "the West") but among the most evil things in history at the national scale. It's mind boggling.

Unfortunately bits of these islands have for a very long time been labelled England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland which only reinforces the ideas of difference and separation. The name Northern Ireland on the other hand conveys the idea that it’s really part of Ireland. People believe in these labels.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 13, 2019, 09:38:03 AM
Unfortunately bits of these islands have for a very long time been labelled England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland which only reinforces the ideas of difference and separation. The name Northern Ireland on the other hand conveys the idea that it’s really part of Ireland. People believe in these labels.
Bwahaha! “Scotland is just Ipswich with colder winters.”  ::)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ratliff on December 13, 2019, 11:07:09 AM
I don’t see that it is likely that a second (third) referendum would have reversed the previous, given that the conservatives won so decisively on the platform “get brexit done.”
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 13, 2019, 11:13:32 AM
I don’t see that it is likely that a second (third) referendum would have reversed the previous, given that the conservatives won so decisively on the platform “get brexit done.”

Next time hold both referenda on the same day, using the same ballot.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: ritter on December 13, 2019, 11:16:55 AM
I’ll just post in this thread to....wish Andrei a very happy birthday!!!!

Un abrazo,
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: André on December 13, 2019, 11:25:57 AM
Next time hold both referenda on the same day, using the same ballot.

The heading for the second portion of the ballot would be ‘On Second Thought’.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on December 13, 2019, 11:28:04 AM
Next time hold both referenda on the same day, using the same ballot.

I think the idea was to make the British people take the test again and again and again until they get the answer right, like in History tests in school.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 13, 2019, 12:13:55 PM
Don’t tell him that. Suddenly he'll have several hundred birthdays a year!
Haha  :)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 13, 2019, 12:15:30 PM
I don’t see that it is likely that a second (third) referendum would have reversed the previous, given that the conservatives won so decisively on the platform “get brexit done.”
Yes, that may well be true.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: JBS on December 13, 2019, 12:40:51 PM
I don’t see that it is likely that a second (third) referendum would have reversed the previous, given that the conservatives won so decisively on the platform “get brexit done.”

But did they?
I am under the impression that only the Liberal Democrats were against Brexit, and that Corbyn/Labour's position was a sort of "well, we'll see if we can get a better Brexit, or maybe not..."
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christabel on December 13, 2019, 12:48:46 PM
But did they?
I am under the impression that only the Liberal Democrats were against Brexit, and that Corbyn/Labour's position was a sort of "well, we'll see if we can get a better Brexit, or maybe not..."

Oh, this is funny!!  Meanwhile, over at the Guardianistas;  they're just finding out what most of us have already known for ages!!  How can anybody read that rag populated by activists and school-aged ingenues!!?  The "educated Left" - not the sharpest tools in the shed:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/jeremy-corbyn-labour-manifesto-antisemitism-brexit

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 13, 2019, 01:09:26 PM
Oh, this is funny!!  Meanwhile, over at the Guardianistas;  they're just finding out what most of us have already known for ages!!  How can anybody read that rag populated by activists and school-aged ingenues!!?  The "educated Left" - not the sharpest tools in the shed:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/jeremy-corbyn-labour-manifesto-antisemitism-brexit

Thanks for posting that. I very much agree with her analysis of the situation we (in the UK) are now in.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 13, 2019, 01:49:52 PM
Imperialism dies hard. I hear laments from Remainers that they might no longer rule over distant islands, outposts, and people. The oldest imperial possession might elude their control, and teeth are gnashed.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: steve ridgway on December 13, 2019, 09:31:21 PM
Imperialism dies hard. I hear laments from Remainers that they might no longer rule over distant islands, outposts, and people. The oldest imperial possession might elude their control, and teeth are gnashed.

I don’t suppose Scotland would spend so much of their money on the military, maybe England would cut back to more of a self defence force. I never liked “Land of Hope and Glory” anyway.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ratliff on December 13, 2019, 09:32:18 PM
Repeating the referendum, which was non-binding anyway, doesn't seem like such an inappropriate move. After all, you could argue that when people voted for brexit they thought it would be relatively simple. Now after more than three years and no agreed plan other than crashing out, maybe people would think differently.

But that does not appear to be the case, since the guy who ran on "get brexit done" got overwhelming support. Presumably the second referendum would be even more decisive in favor of brexit.

For what it's worth, my view is that there never should have been a referendum at all. Direct democracy is a terrible way to govern (as California with its propositions has proven time and time again). Representative Democracy, a Republic, is what works (to the extent anything works).

I don't see the point in bashing Boris Johnson. Like Trump, he is a symptom, not a cause, of political disfunction. England has earned him.

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 14, 2019, 12:46:32 AM
Repeating the referendum, which was non-binding anyway, doesn't seem like such an inappropriate move. After all, you could argue that when people voted for brexit they thought it would be relatively simple. Now after more than three years and no agreed plan other than crashing out, maybe people would think differently.

But that does not appear to be the case, since the guy who ran on "get brexit done" got overwhelming support. Presumably the second referendum would be even more decisive in favor of brexit.

For what it's worth, my view is that there never should have been a referendum at all. Direct democracy is a terrible way to govern (as California with its propositions has proven time and time again). Representative Democracy, a Republic, is what works (to the extent anything works).

I don't see the point in bashing Boris Johnson. Like Trump, he is a symptom, not a cause, of political disfunction. England has earned him.

Of course there should never have been a referendum. You are right. David 'I'm not a quitter' Cameron's idiotic decision to hold one was bound to polarise the country. Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher, from opposite ends of the political spectrum, were totally opposed to them.

Thanks to everyone for their views.

'Let the healing begin'
 :)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on December 14, 2019, 12:49:05 AM
Of course there should never have been a referendum. You are right. David 'I'm not a quitter' Cameron's idiotic decision to hold one was bound to polarise the country. Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher, from opposite ends of the political spectrum, were totally opposed to them.

Thanks to everyone for their views. 'Let the healing begin'
 :)
First there will be much suffering (called 'Brexit' and all of its apparently unforeseen consequences called 'End of the UK'). Then there will be much healing (needed too).  ::)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on December 14, 2019, 12:58:10 AM
Of course there should never have been a referendum. You are right. David 'I'm not a quitter' Cameron's idiotic decision to hold one was bound to polarise the country. Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher, from opposite ends of the political spectrum, were totally opposed to them.

Thanks to everyone for their views.

'Let the healing begin'
 :)


The problem is that the British electoral system is not designed to heal political divides....  ::)

Yes, Boris got more votes than any of the others.
But if you tally all votes, a small majority voted for parties either against Brexit or in favour of a 2nd referendum.

The combined total vote share for the pro-Brexit parties reached 47.33%, while on the other hand, Labour's vote share combined with the Liberal Democrats, SNP, Greens, Sinn Fein, Plaid Cymru and Alliance gives an overall share of 52.67%.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/more-than-52-of-the-general-election-vote-went-to-pro-remain-parties-1-6424196

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 14, 2019, 01:11:56 AM
Imperialism dies hard. I hear laments from Remainers that they might no longer rule over distant islands, outposts, and people. The oldest imperial possession might elude their control, and teeth are gnashed.

Utter nonsense!!  Do you really equate Remain with Imperialism!??  Remain is about staying part of a wider political/social/economic whole all collaborating.  Brexit has more of a whiff of pulling up a drawbridge and reckoning we'll be "better" on our own.  This will be a slow motion economic/social disaster.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on December 14, 2019, 02:51:54 AM
From The Guardian

Shortly before 2.30am, Jeremy Corbyn arrived, smiling and waving to his supporters, at his Islington count. No one appeared to have told him that Labour was suffering its worst result at a general election since 1935 and was predicted to win fewer than 200 seats.

An hour later, once the declaration had been made, the severity of the defeat still hadn’t sunk in as the Labour leader began his acceptance speech. It was a disappointing night, he said. A setback, nothing more. If his manifesto had had a flaw, it was that it had been too good for the country. It had been the country’s fault that Labour had not won the election. The people had allowed themselves to be manipulated by the mainstream media into being distracted by Brexit.

However, even though he took no responsibility for Labour’s defeat, Corbyn did concede that he wouldn’t lead the party into another glorious general election. He would stand down, but in his own time. Only after he had been able to engineer a suitable replacement who would build on his magnificent legacy and lead Labour to an even more crushing humiliation. The few Labour party supporters around the country who weren’t already paralytically drunk, each downed an entire bottle of scotch."
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 14, 2019, 04:54:59 AM

The problem is that the British electoral system is not designed to heal political divides....  ::)

Yes, Boris got more votes than any of the others.
But if you tally all votes, a small majority voted for parties either against Brexit or in favour of a 2nd referendum.

The combined total vote share for the pro-Brexit parties reached 47.33%, while on the other hand, Labour's vote share combined with the Liberal Democrats, SNP, Greens, Sinn Fein, Plaid Cymru and Alliance gives an overall share of 52.67%.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/more-than-52-of-the-general-election-vote-went-to-pro-remain-parties-1-6424196

Q
Yes, I read that too. Interesting.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 14, 2019, 04:58:37 AM
Imperialism dies hard. I hear laments from Remainers that they might no longer rule over distant islands, outposts, and people. The oldest imperial possession might elude their control, and teeth are gnashed.
I agree with Roasted Swan and see no connection between Remainers and Imperialism, unless you mean that Britain would try to 'take over' the EU had we remained. It is the Little Englander mentality demonstrated by some Leave supporters which smacks more of Imperialism I think.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ratliff on December 14, 2019, 05:43:33 AM

The problem is that the British electoral system is not designed to heal political divides....  ::)

Yes, Boris got more votes than any of the others.
But if you tally all votes, a small majority voted for parties either against Brexit or in favour of a 2nd referendum.

The combined total vote share for the pro-Brexit parties reached 47.33%, while on the other hand, Labour's vote share combined with the Liberal Democrats, SNP, Greens, Sinn Fein, Plaid Cymru and Alliance gives an overall share of 52.67%.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/more-than-52-of-the-general-election-vote-went-to-pro-remain-parties-1-6424196

Q

Is Labour really decisively anti-Brexit? That may be anti-Boris’s plan at any given moment, but I could never discern what they were for, from what I read.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Todd on December 14, 2019, 05:52:40 AM
Dig the BoJo mojo, and find very amusing the lamentations about the outcome of a democratic election.  Pfft, stupid voters.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 14, 2019, 05:54:47 AM
Letter in the Guardian:

'At times like these it’s good to recall the graceful and reflective words of Dick Tuck’s concession speech when he lost a California senate race in 1966: “The people have spoken, the bastards.”
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 14, 2019, 06:57:45 AM
Utter nonsense!!  Do you really equate Remain with Imperialism!??  Remain is about staying part of a wider political/social/economic whole all collaborating.  Brexit has more of a whiff of pulling up a drawbridge and reckoning we'll be "better" on our own.  This will be a slow motion economic/social disaster.

I don’t “equate” it. That’s a rhetorical dodge. I point out the underlying psychology of the complaints I listed.
But the laments are as I have described: Englishmen bemoaning the prospect of losing the power to govern the non English.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: steve ridgway on December 14, 2019, 07:07:57 AM
I don’t “equate” it. That’s a rhetorical dodge. I point out the underlying psychology of the complaints I listed.
But the laments are as I have described: Englishmen bemoaning the prospect of losing the power to govern the non English.

I’d rather think of it as losing the responsibility to govern the non English. Like we celebrate getting rid of America on July 4th :P.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 14, 2019, 07:15:47 AM
I’d rather think of it as losing the responsibility to govern the non English. Like we celebrate getting rid of America on July 4th :P.
Nice point. “Take up the Pommie's burden of Baner Cymru ...”
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 14, 2019, 11:04:56 AM
I want the UK to remain united and to have a voice in world affairs. I thought that was much more likely as a member of the EU.

After Brexit the UK will continue to be a very important country. The UK can afford dispensing with the EU membership. Romania or Poland or the Baltic States cannot. Between "homogenization" within EU (which is greatly exaggerated anyway) and "independence" without EU (which means at best and theoretically a limbo and at worst and practically falling back within Russia's sphere of influence) I vastly prefer the former.

EDIT 1: That is, politically and economically wise. Militarily wise, NATO is of paramount importance. Macron is a cretin.

EDIT 2: This is also why my score on a test in another thread indicated I was "strongly globalist". I strongly agreed that the EU made Romania more prosperous and strongly disagreed that the EU undermined the independence of the Romanian parliament.

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 14, 2019, 11:08:01 AM
Letter in the Guardian:

'At times like these it’s good to recall the graceful and reflective words of Dick Tuck’s concession speech when he lost a California senate race in 1966: “The people have spoken, the bastards.”

No, no, no, a thousand times no! This is wrong, very wrong! Jeffrey, please, tell me you don't actually subscribe to this.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 14, 2019, 11:32:35 AM
After Brexit the UK will continue to be a very important country. The UK can afford dispensing with the EU membership. Romania or Poland or the Baltic States cannot. Between "homogenization" within EU (which is greatly exaggerated anyway) and "independence" without EU (which means at best and theoretically a limbo and at worst and practically falling back within Russia's sphere of influence) I vastly prefer the former.

EDIT 1: That is, politically and economically wise. Militarily wise, NATO is of paramount importance.

EDIT 2: This is also why my score on a test in another thread indicated I was "strongly globalist". I strongly agreed that the EU made Romania more prosperous and strongly disagreed that the EU undermined the independence of the Romanian parliament.

Thanks for this Andrei and I like to think it's true. As for the 'bastards' quote I was just amused by the paradox of the seemingly reasonable 'the people have spoken' with the underlying 'real' thought - 'the bastards'. I don't think that everyone who voted for Brexit was a bastard (that would include some friends of mine and family members).
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 14, 2019, 11:34:56 AM
No, no, no, a thousand times no! This is wrong, very wrong! Jeffrey, please, tell me you don't actually subscribe to this.
See above Andrei.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 14, 2019, 11:35:54 AM
No, no, no, a thousand times no! This is wrong, very wrong! Jeffrey, please, tell me you don't actually subscribe to this.
I think that quote is actually pretty funny. At least it shows a willingness to accept the result, which not all election losers do these days. You can accept that they have the right to decide and still think their decision wrong.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 14, 2019, 11:44:18 AM
Thanks for this Andrei and I like to think it's true.

Do you see any reason for it's not being true?


Quote
As for the 'bastards' quote I was just amused by the paradox of the seemingly reasonable 'the people have spoken' with the underlying 'real' thought - 'the bastards'.

Amusing it is, I admit.

Quote
I don't think that everyone who voted for Brexit was a bastard (that would include some friends of mine and family members).

I am not British but I do think that none of the common British people who voted for Brexit was a bastard. (I do think Nigel Farage is a bastard, though)

Fwiw, I have close relatives living and working in the UK. They don't seem particularly worried by Brexit.

Question: will your way of life, or that of your friends and family members, change dramatically after Brexit is done for good?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 14, 2019, 11:49:36 AM
I think that quote is actually pretty funny. At least it shows a willingness to accept the result, which not all election losers do these days. You can accept that they have the right to decide and still think their decision wrong.

Twenty years ago I could have said "the bastards" myself. (I actually did say it). But in time I realized that this is exactly the kind of attitude and reaction that ensures "the bastards deplorables" will keep voting the way they did.

Either we accept democracy (ie, one man one vote), or we don't. There was a time I didn't. Today, I do.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 14, 2019, 12:00:25 PM
Do you see any reason for it's not being true?


Amusing it is, I admit.

I am not British but I do think that none of the common British people who voted for Brexit was a bastard. (I do think Nigel Farage is a bastard, though)

Fwiw, I have close relatives living and working in the UK. They don't seem particularly worried by Brexit.

Question: will your way of life, or that of your friends and family members, change dramatically after Brexit is done for good?

Well Andrei, I think that the UK would have had more influence inside the EU than outside it. I don't yet know the answer to your last question - time will tell I guess.

I fear that there will be a 'brain drain' as a result of Brexit. The already short-staffed NHS , for example, is quite reliant, I think, on doctors and nurses from EU countries who may now feel unwelcome in the UK. The same could happen to business and industry which may now relocate overseas. I hope that I'm being alarmist.

We do, however, agree about Nigel Farage (whom my daughter has interviewed when she worked on a local newspaper).  ;D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 14, 2019, 12:08:50 PM
Well Andrei, I think that the UK would have had more influence inside Europe than outside it.

As I previously said (in various occasions, not just on this thread), I am a staunch partisan and defender of the EU, for all its faults (which are many). Honestly, I'd rather be ruled by faceless bureaucrats in Brussels than by Putin or whoever is going to succeed him.

As my avatar testifies, I am a convinced Russophile culturally speaking. As my posts testify, I am a convinced Russophobe politically speaking.   :D

Quote
I don't yet know the answer to your last question - time will tell I guess.

Yes, wait and see, what else can you/we do?

Quote
We do, however, agree about Nigel Farage (whom my daughter has interviewed when she worked on a local newspaper)  ;D

He's an idiot.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on December 14, 2019, 12:21:47 PM
 I was planning on upping sticks and moving to France. I'm reluctant to do that now, because I'm not sure how secure I'd be, how my tax position might evolve, what sort of health care I could expect etc. This is quite a dramatic change.

And something already. I went to Tesco today and there were no aubergines!!!!!!!!!!!! This doesn't bode well, I think in a couple of years we'll all be eating bread and dripping again, drinking Double Diamond.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christabel on December 14, 2019, 08:50:38 PM
As I previously said (in various occasions, not just on this thread), I am a staunch partisan and defender of the EU, for all its faults (which are many). Honestly, I'd rather be ruled by faceless bureaucrats in Brussels than by Putin or whoever is going to succeed him.

As my avatar testifies, I am a convinced Russophile culturally speaking. As my posts testify, I am a convinced Russophobe politically speaking.   :D

Yes, wait and see, what else can you/we do?

He's an idiot.

He speaks well of you, though. ;D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on December 14, 2019, 11:51:51 PM
As my avatar testifies, I am a convinced Russophile culturally speaking. As my posts testify, I am a convinced Russophobe politically speaking.   :D

Amen. Among all the 50+ nations/countries I've been frequenting over the last 40 years, I think I cannot deny that Russia (also Romania, but that's of course obvious :)) is among the places I felt most at home. Saint-Peterburg, to mention one name, perhaps my favourite city of them all, but Khanty-Mansiisk another place I simply cannot forget - nor so many other places & people.
In Saint-Peterburg I know people who worked with Putin in his uncorrupted years - he had. Whatever people think about Russia, there's hardly another place in this globe I love more - okay, perhaps Turkey and Georgia, but that's about it, because Russia is bigger, a never-ending story  ???
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 15, 2019, 12:52:41 AM
Amen. Among all the 50+ nations/countries I've been frequenting over the last 40 years, I think I cannot deny that Russia (also Romania, but that's of course obvious :)) is among the places I felt most at home. Saint-Peterburg, to mention one name, perhaps my favourite city of them all, but Khanty-Mansiisk another place I simply cannot forget - nor so many other places & people.
In Saint-Peterburg I know people who worked with Putin in his uncorrupted years - he had. Whatever people think about Russia, there's hardly another place in this globe I love more - okay, perhaps Turkey and Georgia, but that's about it, because Russia is bigger, a never-ending story  ???

For obvious reasons the Netherlands is the other country where I feel most at home.
 ;)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on December 15, 2019, 03:28:00 AM
For obvious reasons the Netherlands is the other country where I feel most at home.
 ;)

We are ready to adopt you!  :)

Do you have dual nationality?

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 15, 2019, 03:37:16 AM
We are ready to adopt you!  :)

Do you have dual nationality?

Q

How nice. :) Sadly not, otherwise we'd all be Dutch by now in current circumstances. Great Great Grandfather was a Dutchman I think and I gather he may have arrived here on a herring boat. I like to think so anyway but we have been long established in the UK.

The other country I feel very at home in is Finland.

On a separate note my fellow history teaching friend and former colleague wrote this:

'In historical terms I suppose Labour dreamt of 1945 with Red Flag sung in Parliament but got 1784 with defeat of overconfident  London based Whigs by old fashioned conservative people in the shires.  Though not the most sustainable comparison between Fox and Corbyn and Pitt and Johnson, of course.'
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on December 15, 2019, 03:46:59 AM
Is Labour really decisively anti-Brexit? That may be anti-Boris’s plan at any given moment, but I could never discern what they were for, from what I read.

The Labour shadow cabinet and MP's are anti-Brexit and Corbyn and the Labour supporting electorate were not, which created a massive quandary. The Conservative party were equally split which resulted in over three years in chaos in British politics. Both parties reverted to type, Labour, a dog's dinner trying to please all which resulted in appealing to nobody and the Tories brandishing a Harold Macmillan "long knife" more driven by politics then dogma, cut and slashed until they all faced the same way.

The tragedy is that they both seemed to forget how democracy works. Parliament tried to ignore or fudge an instruction given by the electorate in the form of a referendum. That it was close and they didn't agree with result is immaterial. Parliament is there to serve and represent the population of the UK and because it "knew better" three years have been wasted. I voted remain but am vehemently against a second referendum because that undermines democracy. As for the Brexit policy from the Liberal Party ........  :o
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: "Harry" on December 15, 2019, 06:54:55 AM
We are ready to adopt you!  :)

Do you have dual nationality?

Q

Absolutely Jeffrey, we adopt you! :laugh:
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: "Harry" on December 15, 2019, 06:56:50 AM
How nice. :) Sadly not, otherwise we'd all be Dutch by now in current circumstances. Great Great Grandfather was a Dutchman I think and I gather he may have arrived here on a herring boat. I like to think so anyway but we have been long established in the UK.

The other country I feel very at home in is Finland.

On a separate note my fellow history teaching friend and former colleague wrote this:

'In historical terms I suppose Labour dreamt of 1945 with Red Flag sung in Parliament but got 1784 with defeat of overconfident  London based Whigs by old fashioned conservative people in the shires.  Though not the most sustainable comparison between Fox and Corbyn and Pitt and Johnson, of course.'

Jeffrey, I have send you a PM, please look at it, if you have time, or maybe you already did. :)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on December 15, 2019, 01:59:33 PM
Absolutely Jeffrey, we adopt you! :laugh:
At least your lovely wife and daughter (you as an added bonus).  :D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 16, 2019, 12:37:50 AM
Absolutely Jeffrey, we adopt you! :laugh:

Thanks my friend!
I'll get my clogs out!
 :)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 16, 2019, 12:38:47 AM
At least your lovely wife and daughter (you as an added bonus).  :D
:)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 18, 2019, 07:55:15 AM
The Hallelujah Chorus
Gardiner


Oops. Wrong thread, thought this was the listening thread.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ratliff on March 29, 2020, 03:56:51 PM
Boris Johnson has Covid-19. Welcome to the herd, Boris! :)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on April 22, 2020, 11:23:55 PM
Boris Johnson has had to have an emergency life saving haircut

(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/laoz3rsozaudpvkpvc8f.jpg)

https://politics.theonion.com/it-was-for-uh-medical-reasons-says-doctor-to-bori-1842783204
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on April 29, 2020, 04:33:35 AM
Carrie, Boris's girlfriend (or, if you will, fiancée), was delivered of a baby boy this morning.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on April 29, 2020, 06:09:36 AM
May the baby live a long, wealthy and happy life. So may all newborn babies all around the world.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on April 29, 2020, 06:39:35 AM
May the baby live a long, wealthy and happy life. So may all newborn babies all around the world.

Thumbs up to that.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on April 29, 2020, 06:47:50 AM
I heard the news...rough times to be born into!  Have they named him yet?

Heard a sad/sweet story the other day:  young boy whose name happened to be Corona was getting picked on in school.  His mom suggested writing a letter to Tom Hanks who happened to have hauled one of his Corona typewriters with him to Australia and used it whilst quarantined.  Mr. Hanks wrote a sweet letter to him and ended it by telling him that "You have a friend in me" and sent him his Corona typewriter.    :)

Best,

PD
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Dowder on April 29, 2020, 10:38:22 AM
Happy he is doing well.

I wish Trump spoke Greek.  ;)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on April 29, 2020, 11:52:35 PM
well, Johnson may (or may not) quote the odd piece of ancient Greek, but that is not the same as "speaking" it. I don't think anyone does. Some classical scholars write or speak some classical Latin, but I have never ever heard of anyone (I did graduate school in Classics, still reading it at my ripe age) pretending to speak it spontaneously.

Though I detest most of his (ever changing) political platform, I kind of like his love for the classics. But I'm also a little suspicious of it, as a kind of sugar coating.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Dowder on April 30, 2020, 05:47:01 AM
well, Johnson may (or may not) quote the odd piece of ancient Greek, but that is not the same as "speaking" it. I don't think anyone does. Some classical scholars write or speak some classical Latin, but I have never ever heard of anyone (I did graduate school in Classics, still reading it at my ripe age) pretending to speak it spontaneously.

Though I detest most of his (ever changing) political platform, I kind of like his love for the classics. But I'm also a little suspicious of it, as a kind of sugar coating.
Lol, he’s way more literary than Trump, whose only adjectives used are “great” or “terrible.” I watched Boris’ “Greece vs Rome” debate with Mary Beard and he seemed to have a genuine love and knowledge for the classics, which would make sense, I suppose, considering his elite upbringing.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on April 30, 2020, 11:51:54 AM
I notice that during the daily governments press briefings (UK) great emphasis is placed on comparative graphs featuring Europe and the USA if they seem to reflect well on the UK but when the statistics reflect badly, like now, when the inclusion of care home deaths have sent the UK death figures shooting up into the stratosphere, the focus is on how misleading the comparative graphs are.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on May 02, 2020, 06:25:13 AM
My wife has just informed me that Boris's no.? son's name has been announced Wilfred Lawrie Nicholas.Thought you would all like to know that. :D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on May 02, 2020, 07:23:27 AM
My wife has just informed me that Boris's no.? son's name has been announced Wilfred Lawrie Nicholas.Thought you would all like to know that. :D
Letter in The Guardian today:
• Congratulations are in order to the PM and his fiancee. I wonder what the child will be called. Perhaps they will follow the classical style favoured by Jacob Rees-Mogg and go for Sextus? Or perhaps Septimus? Octavian? Dodecadus? Only Boris knows.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: MusicTurner on May 02, 2020, 07:26:09 AM
'Dodecadus', though certainly impressive, is probably too close to 'dude'.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on May 02, 2020, 10:13:53 AM
'Dodecadus', though certainly impressive, is probably too close to 'dude'.
Good point!
 ;D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on May 03, 2020, 04:12:06 AM
Letter in The Guardian today:
• Congratulations are in order to the PM and his fiancee. I wonder what the child will be called. Perhaps they will follow the classical style favoured by Jacob Rees-Mogg and go for Sextus? Or perhaps Septimus? Octavian? Dodecadus? Only Boris knows.

Wilfred is his grandfather, Lawrie (peculiar spelling, can only think short for Lawrence with a w) the grandfather of his fiancee, and a nice touch, Nicholas as both doctors who attended to him during his illness were both Nick.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on May 03, 2020, 05:02:24 AM
Wilfred is his grandfather, Lawrie (peculiar spelling, can only think short for Lawrence with a w) the grandfather of his fiancee, and a nice touch, Nicholas as both doctors who attended to him during his illness were both Nick.
Sweet!  :)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on May 06, 2020, 10:47:52 PM
The whole nation, well, at least my family, is waiting with baited breath for Johnson's speech televised live on Sunday on the proposed lifting of Covid-19 restrictions. I am getting mixed messages, the political pundit Ian Dale envisages same as we are as any relaxation will result in many more deaths - the UK has already the worst record in Europe. Some of today's press are predicting wholesale changes including opening up pubs!
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on May 06, 2020, 11:10:58 PM
Lol, he’s way more literary than Trump, whose only adjectives used are “great” or “terrible.” I watched Boris’ “Greece vs Rome” debate with Mary Beard and he seemed to have a genuine love and knowledge for the classics, which would make sense, I suppose, considering his elite upbringing.

Of course Johnson is much better educated and erudite than Trump, because Trump is at level zero, whose briefings have to have images rather than text because he's probably borderline analphabetic.

The Beard - Johnson youtube makes me rather sad. Here is a good undergraduate against an illustrious Classics professor (and one of the all-time great popularizers of classics) and he barely lets her get a word in. Somehow the presence of an audience and cameras makes him lose his sense of who he is vis a vis Mary Beard (a mere kid). As it happens I have been friends since my teens with people who were in the same European School in Brussels as Johnson, and so I know he's had every opportunity to get a great education.
As I said I like Johnson's enthusiasm for the classics, which I share, but I am getting the impression that he's kind of stuck in Pericles / Churchill Reenactment Syndrome. In other words, he's a parody. David Cameron was even worse, but not in that wannabe way. I won't even think of Jacob Reese-Mogg, another stultifying wannabe. These are all men one shouldn't even trust with one's car keys.
Of course there are many critics of the way Britain (and previously, the entire empire) has been ruled by a bunch of Oxbridge graduates who literally know nothing except how to compose Latin verse and read Sophocles the way Jebb read Sophocles at the end of the Victorian era, which brought the UK to its current predicament.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 06, 2020, 11:23:09 PM
‘Complacent’ UK draws global criticism for Covid-19 response

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/06/complacent-uk-draws-global-criticism-for-covid-19-response-boris-johnson
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on May 07, 2020, 08:59:04 AM
The whole nation, well, at least my family, is waiting with baited breath for Johnson's speech televised live on Sunday on the proposed lifting of Covid-19 restrictions. I am getting mixed messages, the political pundit Ian Dale envisages same as we are as any relaxation will result in many more deaths - the UK has already the worst record in Europe. Some of today's press are predicting wholesale changes including opening up pubs!
Irons,

I remember years ago in college where I was taking a class on English history and the professor brought up the fact that your country was as densely populated as the state of Connecticut per square mile (I think that I've got that right?), so I'm (sadly) not surprised that your rates are so high.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ratliff on May 07, 2020, 09:12:57 AM
The whole nation, well, at least my family, is waiting with baited breath for Johnson's speech televised live on Sunday on the proposed lifting of Covid-19 restrictions. I am getting mixed messages, the political pundit Ian Dale envisages same as we are as any relaxation will result in many more deaths - the UK has already the worst record in Europe. Some of today's press are predicting wholesale changes including opening up pubs!

It is not a matter of more deaths, it is mostly a matter of deaths coming faster. The vaccine is probably years away, to first approximation everyone in the country is going to get it eventually, and between 0.5% and 1% will die. With lockdowns they die over the a long period of time, rather than all at onc.e The big unknown is whether "herd immunity" will happen, or whether people's immunity to the virus will decay in a year so people can get it again.

Well, maybe after everyone's had it the first time the 0.5% to 1% who would die of it are gone, and the next time around people get it, not many die. That's not herd immunity, that's culling the herd. 
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: MusicTurner on May 07, 2020, 09:19:32 AM
It is not a matter of more deaths, it is mostly a matter of deaths coming faster. The vaccine is probably years away, to first approximation everyone in the country is going to get it eventually, and between 0.5% and 1% will die. With lockdowns they die over the a long period of time, rather than all at onc.e The big unknown is whether "herd immunity" will happen, or whether people's immunity to the virus will decay in a year so people can get it again.

Well, maybe after everyone's had it the first time the 0.5% to 1% who would die of it are gone, and the next time around people get it, not many die. That's not herd immunity, that's culling the herd.

That's a very pessimistic outlook, as regards the vaccine obviously, but especially concerning the treatment options, where progress is being made, though general availability will take some time too.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on May 07, 2020, 09:24:14 AM
Historically it's always taken years to find a vaccine. So thinking there will be a Covid Vaccine next January is very optimistic. Which doesn't mean it can't happen.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: MusicTurner on May 07, 2020, 09:27:36 AM
I'm not saying January, I don't know, but the efforts, financial support & accumulated vaccine knowledge have never been greater than in this case.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ratliff on May 07, 2020, 09:28:00 AM
That's a very pessimistic outlook, as regards the vaccine obviously, but especially concerning the treatment options, where progress is being made, though general availability will take some time too.

A vaccine would be wonderful, but there are viruses for which a vaccine has never been found. And the faster turnaround for a vaccine so far has been four years. The novel coronavirus seems to have a relatively slow mutation rate, so that gives some cause for optimism.

If they claim they can test a vaccine in less than a one year clinical trial, that means they plan to deliberately infect people who have been given the experimental vaccine. That means they intend to kill people. It probably takes at least six months to demonstrate that the vaccine itself doesn't kill people.

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ratliff on May 07, 2020, 09:30:16 AM
I'm not saying January, I don't know, but the efforts, financial support & accumulated vaccine knowledge have never been greater that in this case.

My experienced is that science can't be rushed. With more resources they can test more vaccines in parallel, that helps, but doesn't eliminate the basic timeline for testing producing and testing a vaccine.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: MusicTurner on May 07, 2020, 09:52:03 AM
A vaccine would be wonderful, but there are viruses for which a vaccine has never been found. And the faster turnaround for a vaccine so far has been four years. The novel coronavirus seems to have a relatively slow mutation rate, so that gives some cause for optimism.

If they claim they can test a vaccine in less than a one year clinical trial, that means they plan to deliberately infect people who have been given the experimental vaccine. That means they intend to kill people. It probably takes at least six months to demonstrate that the vaccine itself doesn't kill people.


 I doubt that, but they'll try calculating risks. Besides non-human testing, there are actually many reports about volunteers, and you have more resources, including AI, than ever before, etc. But testing and making the vaccine generally available is one of the big hurdles, I agree.

 However you also have treatments on the way, Remdesivir being only the first, timid step, among many. Testing those products will be less of a problem, including ethically.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 07, 2020, 10:43:19 AM
'BoE warns UK set to enter worst recession for 300 years'

https://www.ft.com/content/734e604b-93d9-43a6-a6ec-19e8b22dad3c
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: JBS on May 07, 2020, 10:50:35 AM
'BoE warns UK set to enter worst recession for 300 years'

https://www.ft.com/content/734e604b-93d9-43a6-a6ec-19e8b22dad3c
....the South Sea Bubble was that bad?

My memory of British economic history is not that great. But weren't the 1820s/1830s rather grim?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Dowder on May 07, 2020, 03:40:38 PM
....the South Sea Bubble was that bad?

My memory of British economic history is not that great. But weren't the 1820s/1830s rather grim?
A panic in 1825, solved with help via the Rothchilds, from memory. Can’t remember if it was railroad speculation that caused it but the RR speculation was usually the culprit in the 19th century.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 08, 2020, 06:34:06 AM
UK scientists condemn 'Stalinist' attempt to censor Covid-19 advice

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/08/revealed-uk-scientists-fury-over-attempt-to-censor-covid-19-advice
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 08, 2020, 08:59:36 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/Wxx2Z4B/yck5Bz6m.jpg)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Iota on May 08, 2020, 10:05:02 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/Wxx2Z4B/yck5Bz6m.jpg)

Heh.

Concerning thread title, Boris Johnson really has turned out to be a one trick pony, jovial buffoon and that's it. Anything else he sounds out of his depth.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 08, 2020, 11:09:05 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/G0tK6nc/49871533411-2dc98dcf8c-c.jpg)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 09, 2020, 07:56:52 AM
Boris's Brexit journey

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=1360396784021463&story_fbid=3110799085647882


Quote
December 31st China alerts WHO to new virus.

January 23rd Study reveals a third of China’s patients require intensive care.

January 24th Boris Johnson misses first Cobra meeting.

January 29th Boris Johnson misses second Cobra meeting.

January 31st The NHS declares first-ever ‘Level 4 critical incident’ Meanwhile, the government declines to join European scheme to source PPE.

February 5th Boris Johnson misses third Cobra meeting.

February 12th Boris Johnson misses fourth Cobra meeting. Exeter University published a study warning Coronavirus could infect 45 million people in the UK if left unchallenged.

February 13th Boris Johnson misses conference call with European leaders.

February 14th Boris Johnson goes away on holiday. Aides are told keeps Johnson’s briefing notes short or he will not read them.

February 18th Johnson misses fifth cobra meeting.

February 26th Boris Johnson announces ‘Herd Immunity’ strategy, announcing some people will lose loved ones. A government document is leaked, predicting half a million Brits could die in ‘worse case scenario.’

February 29th Boris Johnson retreats to his country manor. NHS warns of ‘PPE shortage nightmare’ Stockpiles have dwindled or expired after years of austerity cuts.

March 2nd Boris Johnson attends his first Cobra meeting, declining another opportunity to join the European PPE scheme. Government’s own scientists say over half a million Brit’s could die if virus left unrestrained. Johnson tells country “We are very, very well prepared.”

March 3rd Scientists urge Government to advise the public not to shake hands. Boris Johnson brags about shaking hands of Coronavirus patients.

March 4th Government stops providing daily updates on virus following a 70% spike in UK cases. They will later U-turn on this amid accusations they are withholding vital information.

March 5th Boris Johnson tells public to ‘wash their hands and business as usual’

March 7th Boris Johnson joins 82,000 people at Six Nations match.

March 9th After Ireland cancels St Patrick’s day parades, the government says there’s “No Rationale” for cancelling sporting events.

March 10th - 13th Cheltenham takes place, more than a quarter of a million people attend.

March 11th 3,000 Atletico Madrid fans fly to Liverpool.

March 12th Boris Johnson states banning events such as Cheltenham will have little effect. The Imperial College study finds the government’s plan is projected to kill half a million people.

March 13th The FA suspends the Premier League, citing an absence of Government guidance. Britain is invited to join a European scheme for joint purchase of ventilators and refuses. Boris Johnson lifts restrictions of those arriving from Coronavirus hot spots.

March 14th Government is still allowing mass gatherings, as Stereophonics play to 5,000 people in Cardiff.

March 16th Boris Johnson asks Britons not to go to pubs but allows them to stay open. During a conference call, Johnson jokes that push to build new ventilators should be called ‘Operation Last Gasp’

March 19th Hospital patients with Coronavirus are returned to care homes in a bid to free up hospital space. What follows is a boom of virus cases in care homes.

March 20th The Government states that the PPE shortage crisis is “Completely resolved” Less than two weeks later, the British Medical Association reports an acute shortage in PPE.

March 23rd UK goes into lockdown.

March 26th Boris Johnson is accused of putting ‘Brexit over Breathing’ by not joining EU ventilator scheme. The government then state they had not joined the scheme because they had ‘missed the email’

April 1st The Evening Standard publishes that just 0.17% of NHS staff have been tested for the virus.

April 3rd The UK death toll overtakes China.

April 5th 17.5 million Antibody tests, ordered by the government and described by Boris Johnson as a ‘game-changer’ are found to be a failure.

April 7th Boris Johnson is moved to intensive care with Coronavirus.

April 16th Flights bring 15,000 people a day into the UK - without virus testing.

April 17th Health Secretary Matt Hancock says “I would love to be able to wave a magic wand and have PPE fall from the sky.” The UK has now missed four opportunities to join the EU’s PPE scheme.

April 21st The Government fails to reach its target of face masks for the NHS, as it is revealed manufacturers offers of help were met with silence. Instead millions of pieces of PPE are being shipped from the UK to Europe.

April 23rd - 24th Government announces testing kits for 10 million key workers. Orders run out within minutes as only 5,000 are made available.

April 25th UK death toll from Coronavirus overtakes that of The Blitz.

April 30th Boris Johnson announces the UK has succeeded in avoiding a tragedy that had engulfed other parts of the world - At this point, The UK has the 3rd highest death toll in the world.

May 1st The Government announces it has reached its target of 100,000 tests - They haven’t conducted the tests, but posted the testing kits.

May 5th The UK death toll becomes the highest in Europe.

May 6th Boris Johnson announces the UK could start to lift lockdown restrictions by next week.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: MusicTurner on May 09, 2020, 09:12:52 AM
I hope that the new Labour man, Keir Starmer, is well-qualified and has some charisma.

He's basically unknown in my country, but got short, positive descriptions as being qualified, sharp and methodical very much above average. One can't really say that about Johnson's record listed above.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on May 09, 2020, 09:36:33 AM
Boris's Brexit journey

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=1360396784021463&story_fbid=3110799085647882
What is "The News Factory"?  I hadn't heard of it before now.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on May 09, 2020, 04:02:19 PM
it doesn't mention he's had a baby.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on May 09, 2020, 11:26:35 PM
I hope that the new Labour man, Keir Starmer, is well-qualified and has some charisma.

He's basically unknown in my country, but got short, positive descriptions as being qualified, sharp and methodical very much above average. One can't really say that about Johnson's record listed above.

I think that Keir Starmer has made a very impressive start as Labour leader. He is far more, IMO, of a genuine 'Prime Minister in waiting' that his predecessor. Frankly I hope that he becomes PM one day, hopefully sooner rather than later. He is very incisive and, unlike our current leader, has depth and personal integrity. He reminds me, and others, of the former Labour leader John Smith who sadly died prematurely and who would, I believe, have been a fine PM, instead of which we ended up with the Tony Blair years. Like Smith Starmer is, I believe, interested in service to others rather than in boosting his own ego. Johnson's mock Churchillian rhetoric is looking increasingly hollow.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on May 09, 2020, 11:31:27 PM
Johnson's mock Churchillian rhetoric is looking increasingly hollow.

It does. But it always did, and look what happened.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on May 10, 2020, 12:24:45 AM
It does. But it always did, and look what happened.

True.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on May 10, 2020, 12:38:59 AM
I hope that the new Labour man, Keir Starmer, is well-qualified and has some charisma.

He's basically unknown in my country, but got short, positive descriptions as being qualified, sharp and methodical very much above average. One can't really say that about Johnson's record listed above.

Paul Gambaccini knows him too well.  https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/paul-gambaccini-threatens-to-run-against-keir-starmer-over-sex-abuse-witch-hunt-1369338
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on May 10, 2020, 12:54:01 AM
True.

I hate to say it but Johnson is typically the kind of politician a lot of people would like to have a beer with and either quote some Homer or talk about boys' stuff.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 10, 2020, 01:01:14 AM
We used to have

(https://assets-global.website-files.com/5da44884ae7ebd7c14dee44a/5e7a51d3331ed6920d153de4_90061333_10158300990388453_1858167035964424192_o.png)

And we now have

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXmkWQHXkAAxIyV?format=png&name=medium)


Instead of giving the people the simple easily understandable (infantalising?) command stay at home we have the much more complex, subtle (responsibilising?)  requirement to "stay alert."  Stay at home had to be replaced of course, because people need to go to work and to school.

(Is responsibilising is an English word?)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on May 10, 2020, 02:59:19 AM
We used to have

(Is responsibilising is an English word?)

No of course not.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on May 10, 2020, 09:17:18 AM
I thought that, for once, Boris Johnson came across as sincere in his address to the nation on TV tonight. I am no fan of the man, but maybe his brush with death has deepened him.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 10, 2020, 11:19:35 AM
I thought that, for once, Boris Johnson came across as sincere in his address to the nation on TV tonight. I am no fan of the man, but maybe his brush with death has deepened him.

Did I mishear things, or did he tell working class people to go out risking death for the sake of the economy from tomorrow, and to expect no help or reward?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on May 10, 2020, 11:35:00 AM
I thought that, for once, Boris Johnson came across as sincere in his address to the nation on TV tonight. I am no fan of the man, but maybe his brush with death has deepened him.
Wonder where I can listen to his address?
Did I mishear things, or did he tell working class people to go out risking death for the sake of the economy from tomorrow, and to expect no help or reward?
Huh!   ???  Lord, I hope not!!

By the way, is the British government offering any sort of economic stimulus payments to the average citizen?  Either a check or a direct deposit into their accounts?  If so, how much and do you think that it will really help much?

PD
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on May 10, 2020, 11:39:41 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQcVUaowTbg
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on May 10, 2020, 11:58:43 AM
Did I mishear things, or did he tell working class people to go out risking death for the sake of the economy from tomorrow, and to expect no help or reward?

The biggest change was his hair. He seemed to have been in same room as a comb.

He did emphasize that at work social distancing should apply.

I couldn't help but notice him saying the fines for not distancing etc would be raised.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 10, 2020, 12:23:36 PM


He did emphasize that at work social distancing should apply.


Yes but he said absolutely nothing about what the state will do to ensure that the employers make the workplace safe.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on May 10, 2020, 04:08:51 PM
My daughter forwarded this to me:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N8DuyMihnjE
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: André on May 10, 2020, 04:33:16 PM
My daughter forwarded this to me:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N8DuyMihnjE

I like this comment from one of the clip’s viewers:

Quote

Mike O'Regan

What's everyone's issue with good old Bo Jo? He's got an outline of a planned possible framework for an intended way that we might get an idea of how we will potentially move forwards. Maybe
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on May 10, 2020, 09:12:42 PM
I like this comment from one of the clip’s viewers:
+1
 ;)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on May 10, 2020, 09:41:57 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/10/smart-suit-brushed-hair-it-was-just-the-speech-that-was-a-total-mess
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on May 10, 2020, 09:50:54 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/10/smart-suit-brushed-hair-it-was-just-the-speech-that-was-a-total-mess

V good article.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 10, 2020, 09:51:28 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/10/smart-suit-brushed-hair-it-was-just-the-speech-that-was-a-total-mess

It’s just far too depressing. The only sensible thing to do if you’re British is to forget about it and listen to a Mozart piano concerto.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: SimonNZ on May 10, 2020, 10:16:47 PM
John Crace has written some wonderfully brutal stuff on BoNo.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on May 10, 2020, 10:26:29 PM
John Crace has written some wonderfully brutal stuff on BoNo.

You mean the pink-glasses singer? That should be easy.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: SimonNZ on May 10, 2020, 10:30:06 PM
Lol. The incomprehensible mysteries of autocorrect.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on May 10, 2020, 11:57:01 PM
Oh, I see. BoJo, who does not wear pink glasses.

Girlfriend should give him some.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 11, 2020, 06:16:11 AM
Here's the roadmap

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6887280/FINAL-6-6637-CO-HMG-C19-Recovery-FINAL-110520-v1.pdf
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on May 11, 2020, 07:57:13 AM
My daughter forwarded this to me:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N8DuyMihnjE
Very amusing!
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on May 11, 2020, 07:59:40 AM
Lol. The incomprehensible mysteries of autocorrect.
I kept trying to type "Martinu" yesterday; it kept turning into "Martini"!  "Not a bad idea" I thought at one point.   ;)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: SimonNZ on May 11, 2020, 02:11:27 PM
I kept trying to type "Martinu" yesterday; it kept turning into "Martini"!  "Not a bad idea" I thought at one point.   ;)

My landlord sent me a text a while back saying they needed to check my garage for something. I sent a text back saying "Okay, but I should warn you its a bit junky in there." and only just in time stopped it from going out as changed to "Okay, but I should warn you its a bit kinky in there." Seriously.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on May 12, 2020, 12:38:59 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/11/boris-johnson-advice-coronavirus-spread-work

An Oxford epidemologist doesn't think BoJo's plan is going to work.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 12, 2020, 04:13:27 AM
The Independent SAGE Report:-

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MD4-8z-yy-lO5ZsfmXAxTUo79iFk1zfy/view
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on May 12, 2020, 04:48:38 AM
My landlord sent me a text a while back saying they needed to check my garage for something. I sent a text back saying "Okay, but I should warn you its a bit junky in there." and only just in time stopped it from going out as changed to "Okay, but I should warn you its a bit kinky in there." Seriously.
Thank you, I needed a good laugh!   ;D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 12, 2020, 08:47:53 AM
Peter Bone (MP, Conservative, right wing of the party) lambastes BJ

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1260257779304017923
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 24, 2020, 12:50:24 AM
(https://scontent.flhr3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/94067289_4542713129088021_5734227664571465728_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=2ECOZ4TXcCkAX_UkcDV&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr3-2.fna&oh=f5678c947ec4e0ea951c6de2306a5061&oe=5EF1301D)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Papy Oli on May 24, 2020, 09:18:19 AM
What time does the watershed finishes again ?  >:(
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 24, 2020, 10:37:08 AM
Boris Johnson has announced his new top adviser

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-52779831/kitten-born-with-two-faces-in-oregon
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: MusicTurner on May 24, 2020, 11:10:19 AM
Boris Johnson has announced his new top adviser

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-52779831/kitten-born-with-two-faces-in-oregon

This one at least won't have any sort of embarrassing kompromat on government members ...
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: SimonNZ on May 24, 2020, 01:44:21 PM
Boris Johnson backs Dominic Cummings in face of Tory calls for chief aide to resign
Prime minister says key adviser acted ‘responsibly, legally and with integrity’ (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/24/boris-johnson-backs-dominic-cummings-in-face-of-tory-calls-for-chief-aide-to-resign)

"Boris Johnson has pledged his complete support for Dominic Cummings over a trip to a distant family home during the peak of the lockdown, using a Downing Street press conference to insist his chief adviser “acted responsibly, legally and with integrity”.

Facing intense pressure to explain why Cummings appeared to have flouted lockdown rules by driving more than 260 miles to his parents’ estate in Durham with his wife and young son after his wife became ill, the prime minister said Cummings had simply been trying to keep his family safe.

“I have had extensive face-to-face conversations with Dominic Cummings and I have concluded that in travelling to find the right kind of childcare, at the moment when both he and his wife were about to be incapacitated by coronavirus – and when he had no alternative – I think he followed the instincts of every father and every parent,” Johnson said. “And I do not mark him down for that.”

Calling some of the allegations against Cummings “palpably false” – but not saying which – Johnson continued: “I believe that in every respect he has acted responsibly, legally and with integrity, and with the overriding aim to stopping the spread of the virus and saving lives.”[...]


One law for Dominic Cummings, another for the rest of us
Readers respond to the Guardian exclusive revealing that Boris Johnson’s key adviser had breached lockdown rules after he was seen in Durham, 264 miles from his London home, despite having had symptoms of coronavirus (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/24/one-law-for-dominic-cummings-another-for-the-rest-of-us)

"My daughter and son-in-law are both doctors. They contracted coronavirus in March and both were ill for several weeks, their symptoms bad enough to have to spend some days in bed. They have two young children who were quarantined with them. All the grandparents are over 70, and live some distance away. At no time did any of us consider it appropriate, acceptable or indeed wise for them to drive to us in order to get help with childcare, or for any of the grandparents to visit them. They managed as best they could. I wonder what made it so different for Dominic Cummings and his family (Pressure on Dominic Cummings to quit over lockdown breach, 22 May)?
Janet Galley
Milton Keynes, Buckinghamshire

• Dominic Cummings was infectious when he travelled. He put many lives at risk on his journey. What did he touch when he refuelled? Who was within two metres when he paid? Who was near him when he was buying food and drink for the journey? Who else used the toilets the family used? What about the human rights of the people he was near as he was out and about?

Is this why tracking and tracing was stopped – because it would have interfered with the liberty to be above the law that he wanted for himself?

Others have stayed home and avoided going by vehicle in case a breakdown or an accident put people at risk and put a further strain on resources. As a teacher I ask what lessons are our young people learning about Conservative party values, and how to live your life, from the behaviour of our government?
Name and address supplied

• If Dominic Cummings’ stay in Durham was as innocent as he claims, why did the briefing from the Downing Street spokesperson make no mention of his location? If the Cummings family were so sure they had broken no rules, why did Mary Wakefield not mention, in her Spectator piece, that they were not isolating at home, but 264 miles away?

It is not surprising that, on her return, Wakefield found London’s lockdown full of “comical uncertainty”. The uncertainty was in the minds of herself and her husband, who clearly had a very vague idea of what the words “Stay at home” could possibly mean.
Sally Burch
London

• Michael Gove tweeted that caring for your wife and child is not a crime. Are we to conclude that all those who have followed government advice and stayed home and self-isolated while loved ones have been ill, and in some cases died, are simply too stupid to have understood the advice properly?
Bill Stothart
Chester

• Dominic Cummings and Boris Johnson’s actions in the early stages of the pandemic, and the virus spreading through the team of key decision-makers, tells us that they were not taking the situation seriously. The support of their activities by other government members at the weekend tells us that they still aren’t.
Dr Michael Peel
London

• If Dominic Cummings needed to travel to Durham for essential support from his family then maybe there is some excuse. But why did he go back to London? It was the return journey that was inexcusable.
Dr Teresa Lehane
Malvern, Worcestershire

• Why such a deafening silence about Boris Johnson and Carrie Symonds going to Chequers after the prime minister left hospital? They were both still suffering from coronavirus, during lockdown, and their home is No 11 Downing Street.
Pamela Skinner
Leighton Buzzard, Bedfordshire

• Just three words: arrogance, entitlement, hypocrisy.
Lynda Andrews
March, Cambridgeshire

• Boris’s poll-tax moment has arrived already.
Chris Burrell
Welwyn Garden City, Hertfordshire
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 24, 2020, 09:58:48 PM
All the world’s a plague
And all the men and women merely payers

https://www.youtube.com/v/s1HMckETWWY&ebc=ANyPxKpvLcY_wE2PW6Bs1GSVsZJF5wSqsd7usijnY-_ptOD3M-tucXBS5gfTabvw4_E2OCLj03LObpwWZmGS08AnB7ZxMWlAHQ
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on May 24, 2020, 10:23:57 PM
Even the Daily Mail has now called for Cummings to resign. The PM completely failed to deal with the journalist's questions at the press conference yesterday and just wants to close down discussion. He basically praised Cummings for following his 'instincts' in driving hundreds of miles to Durham with his family but, as one of the journalists pointed out, the rest of us have been following the rules. Terrible!
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on May 24, 2020, 10:37:50 PM
Sacking Cummings was never going to happen.

Carrie should have another baby this week, so as to get some good front pages.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: SimonNZ on May 25, 2020, 12:17:22 AM
Just learned now after following a string of searches - starting with the film 1917 and ending with the casting work of Nina Gold - that there's a tv movie called Brexit with Benedict Cumberbatch as Dominic Cummings that came out last year.

Has anyone seen it?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Roasted Swan on May 25, 2020, 12:46:10 AM
Just learned now after following a string of searches - starting with the film 1917 and ending with the casting work of Nina Gold - that there's a tv movie called Brexit with Benedict Cumberbatch as Dominic Cummings that came out last year.

Has anyone seen it?

worth a watch - ultimately Cummings seeks to be a disrupter (that is an a-political statement of fact) so no real surprise that his highly lauded "instincts" meant that he felt entitled to operate outside of the rules (or indeed laws) set down for others......
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on May 27, 2020, 02:28:18 AM
Here's a very strange thing with Gove on Cummings

https://twitter.com/nickmurftweets/status/1265547788160507906
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Papy Oli on May 27, 2020, 04:11:07 AM
For the sake of balance and fairness, here is on LBC also yesterday trying to answer a question more thoroughly...

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1265214463118114818 (https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1265214463118114818)



 >:D

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Papy Oli on May 27, 2020, 04:31:02 AM
A forensic analysis of the Cummings statement by a Lawyer/FT journalist :

https://www.youtube.com/v/MMyWFAInbQc
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Papy Oli on May 28, 2020, 10:13:08 AM
Maybe we can merge the Trump and the Boris threads now that Bojo has started muting journalists in the virtual daily press conference, preventing follow-up questions and also blocking his scientists to answer perfectly valid questions concerning lockdown behaviours...  ???

 
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Iota on May 28, 2020, 10:32:13 AM
Why anybody still takes Johnson's empty bluster seriously is beyond me. He seems more useless than ever.

Whatever the criticisms/justifications of Dominic Cummings actions, hanging onto him clearly undermines people's trust, which the government badly needs to navigate a way out of the lockdown. It seems obvious he should go for that reason alone. But as well as indicating deeply suspect priorities, clinging so desperately onto Cummings also suggests Johnson feels he can't manage without him, which is hardly a vote of confidence in his own abilities.

I mean really what does Johnson bring to the job? He just seems a spent firework.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on June 04, 2020, 02:20:29 AM
I mean really what does Johnson bring to the job? He just seems a spent firework.

Well, remember, he's a dad now.  :-X

So he's got to save his energy for the nights.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 05, 2020, 10:22:29 PM
Why anybody still takes Johnson's empty bluster seriously is beyond me. He seems more useless than ever.

Whatever the criticisms/justifications of Dominic Cummings actions, hanging onto him clearly undermines people's trust, which the government badly needs to navigate a way out of the lockdown. It seems obvious he should go for that reason alone. But as well as indicating deeply suspect priorities, clinging so desperately onto Cummings also suggests Johnson feels he can't manage without him, which is hardly a vote of confidence in his own abilities.

I mean really what does Johnson bring to the job? He just seems a spent firework.
+1
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on June 06, 2020, 06:11:09 AM
Why anybody still takes Johnson's empty bluster seriously is beyond me. He seems more useless than ever.

Whatever the criticisms/justifications of Dominic Cummings actions, hanging onto him clearly undermines people's trust, which the government badly needs to navigate a way out of the lockdown. It seems obvious he should go for that reason alone. But as well as indicating deeply suspect priorities, clinging so desperately onto Cummings also suggests Johnson feels he can't manage without him, which is hardly a vote of confidence in his own abilities.

I mean really what does Johnson bring to the job? He just seems a spent firework.

One man cannot run a country and it has always been thus. Alastair Campbell was Tony Blair's special adviser and filled a similar role and enjoyed as much power as Cummings does today. Blair had a better cabinet then Johnson who with the exception of Gove and Sunak are useless. Morally Cummings should go but no way that is going to happen as he is a too important cog in the wheel of government. Spent firework is nice stick but have you no compassion for the difficulties and pressures encountered? Johnson got it wrong and made some poor calls but special times don't you know.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on June 06, 2020, 07:18:20 AM
Here’s today’s Standard’s front page

(https://www.thepaperboy.com/frontpages/archive/London_Evening_Standard_6_6_2020.jpg)

And here’s the London Assembly data for June 6

Quote
Coronavirus numbers in London
In the 24-hour period ending 5pm Friday 5 June, it was announced that a further 5 people who tested positive for COVID-19 were confirmed to have died in hospitals in the Greater London area. 3 people have died where COVID-19 was mentioned on the death certificate.

In London at least, things are looking a bit better.  I expect with local lockdown things will improve in Manchester too.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Iota on June 06, 2020, 08:48:53 AM
Spent firework is nice stick but have you no compassion for the difficulties and pressures encountered? Johnson got it wrong and made some poor calls but special times don't you know.

I do indeed have sympathy for the pressures, responsibilities and difficulties involved in such a job, and although I've never trusted or liked Boris Johnson, I sincerely wished him success at the beginning of this crisis, hoping he would rise to the challenge. As apart from anything else I felt if he did it could really help the country, inject some hope or reassurance into the situation.

However having waited, I have seen nothing to indicate he has any real public qualities other than self-promotion, which not only comes across as depressingly hollow in current circumstances, but is completely ineffective, meaning he seems like a fish out of water when trying to talk seriously about things. This leaves the impression of a somewhat rudderless boat, and if the man whose hand is supposed to be on the tiller sounds so unconvincing, it's bad for us all.

One man cannot run a country and it has always been thus.

I am well aware of this. My point is that if Johnson feels the whole house of cards comes tumbling down without Cummings, then that's a very poor reflection of his own abilities. And if it's his only plan, to which he is prepared to sacrifice the goodwill of an electorate he desperately needs, how are people expected to rally round a man like that?


Alastair Campbell was Tony Blair's special adviser and filled a similar role and enjoyed as much power as Cummings does today. Blair had a better cabinet then Johnson who with the exception of Gove and Sunak are useless. Morally Cummings should go but no way that is going to happen as he is a too important cog in the wheel of government.

I'm not a fan, but Blair had a far greater political sense and felt like he had a vision (whatever you thought of it), and would have adapted far better had he been in a similar situation with Campbell I think.

If you want to be a leader, surely you have to lead, or at least have good delegating abilities, and Johnson sadly, seems to me completely bereft of either.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on June 06, 2020, 11:49:34 PM
I do indeed have sympathy for the pressures, responsibilities and difficulties involved in such a job, and although I've never trusted or liked Boris Johnson, I sincerely wished him success at the beginning of this crisis, hoping he would rise to the challenge. As apart from anything else I felt if he did it could really help the country, inject some hope or reassurance into the situation.

However having waited, I have seen nothing to indicate he has any real public qualities other than self-promotion, which not only comes across as depressingly hollow in current circumstances, but is completely ineffective, meaning he seems like a fish out of water when trying to talk seriously about things. This leaves the impression of a somewhat rudderless boat, and if the man whose hand is supposed to be on the tiller sounds so unconvincing, it's bad for us all.

I am well aware of this. My point is that if Johnson feels the whole house of cards comes tumbling down without Cummings, then that's a very poor reflection of his own abilities. And if it's his only plan, to which he is prepared to sacrifice the goodwill of an electorate he desperately needs, how are people expected to rally round a man like that?


I'm not a fan, but Blair had a far greater political sense and felt like he had a vision (whatever you thought of it), and would have adapted far better had he been in a similar situation with Campbell I think.

If you want to be a leader, surely you have to lead, or at least have good delegating abilities, and Johnson sadly, seems to me completely bereft of either.

That is all fair comment and reasoned criticism and you could well be right. It is the snarling name calling and distortion of the character of politicians of both persuasions in this age of social media that I dislike. Johnson is doing the best he can under the most difficult of circumstances. I know power is most alluring but he would earn buckets of money in the commercial sector without the extreme hassle of running the basket case of UK. Give the guy some slack. I do not think it naive to believe the majority of politicians are in it to contribute.   

A Margret Thatcher thread - that would be fun. ;D     
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on June 06, 2020, 11:58:50 PM
I think you are both being naive.  I consider this Conservative government, BJ included , a bungling corrupt lying unscrupulous mess in almost all things, a total disaster when it comes to learning from elsewhere in the world, taking prudent action, protecting citizens, and far beyond laughable in their messaging.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: MusicTurner on June 07, 2020, 12:03:14 AM
Social statistics, including a movement towards societal equality, are some of the best indicators for any claimed social responsibility of politicians - that responsibility being fake, imagined, or real.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on June 07, 2020, 05:58:34 AM
I think you are both being naive.  I consider this Conservative government, BJ included , a bungling corrupt lying unscrupulous mess in almost all things, a total disaster when it comes to learning from elsewhere in the world, taking prudent action, protecting citizens, and far beyond laughable in their messaging.

I didn't think it would take long for this thread to get back on track.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Iota on June 07, 2020, 06:37:44 AM
It is the snarling name calling and distortion of the character of politicians of both persuasions in this age of social media that I dislike. 

I agree name calling can get tired quickly, is often inaccurate and at times unfair. Though it may help let off steam at times .. But Johnson really does come across to me as almost completely useless, depressingly so. He seems to have no conviction about anything.

I read an article a couple of weeks ago whose title was something like 'Boris Johnson wanted to be prime minister, wanted to have been prime minister, but didn't particularly want the bit in between' (can't find the original article sadly, so the quote a very loose one), which sort of tallies with what I see before me now.

And I agree with a number of things in #338, but things are never that black and white, we just don't have time or will to nuance everything in this life. But at a time of crisis, looking for the positive/achievable/constructive in the midst of mess/bungling, seems sage too.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on June 07, 2020, 10:24:44 AM
I didn't think it would take long for this thread to get back on track.

Maybe you'd like to help BJ end  freedom of movement.

https://action.conservatives.com/immigration-bill-survey/
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: SimonNZ on June 07, 2020, 01:11:26 PM
I agree name calling can get tired quickly, is often inaccurate and at times unfair. Though it may help let off steam at times .. But Johnson really does come across to me as almost completely useless, depressingly so. He seems to have no conviction about anything.

I read an article a couple of weeks ago whose title was something like 'Boris Johnson wanted to be prime minister, wanted to have been prime minister, but didn't particularly want the bit in between' (can't find the original article sadly, so the quote a very loose one), which sort of tallies with what I see before me now.

And I agree with a number of things in #338, but things are never that black and white, we just don't have time or will to nuance everything in this life. But at a time of crisis, looking for the positive/achievable/constructive in the midst of mess/bungling, seems sage too.

Ninth paragraph down:
:
The truth about why Cummings hasn't gone: Johnson is too terrified to sack him (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/26/dominic-cummings-boris-johnson-terrified-sack-him#maincontent)

I remember when I read that a week or two back that I'd need to check out anything written by this Marina Hyde in the future

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Iota on June 08, 2020, 02:26:45 AM
Ninth paragraph down:
:
The truth about why Cummings hasn't gone: Johnson is too terrified to sack him (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/26/dominic-cummings-boris-johnson-terrified-sack-him#maincontent)

I remember when I read that a week or two back that I'd need to check out anything written by this Marina Hyde in the future

Thanks, that's the one, glad somebody has better memory than mine!

Such a good and well expressed observation I thought. My mind clearly then decided to make it the title ..
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 08, 2020, 02:37:18 AM
I agree name calling can get tired quickly, is often inaccurate and at times unfair. Though it may help let off steam at times .. But Johnson really does come across to me as almost completely useless, depressingly so. He seems to have no conviction about anything.

I read an article a couple of weeks ago whose title was something like 'Boris Johnson wanted to be prime minister, wanted to have been prime minister, but didn't particularly want the bit in between' (can't find the original article sadly, so the quote a very loose one), which sort of tallies with what I see before me now.

And I agree with a number of things in #338, but things are never that black and white, we just don't have time or will to nuance everything in this life. But at a time of crisis, looking for the positive/achievable/constructive in the midst of mess/bungling, seems sage too.
Yes, I read that article as well (Times/Sunday Times I think) and I'd already come to the same conclusion about Johnson, namely that his ruthless ambition meant that he was desperate to become PM, but his aversion to detailed hard work meant that he did not fancy doing the work (the odd mock-Churchillian statement would suffice). He would then be happy to appear on late-night chat shows telling everyone how he lead Britain out of the EU and through the pandemic. Maybe I'm cynical but that's how I see it.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: The new erato on June 08, 2020, 03:51:46 AM
Yes, I read that article as well (Times/Sunday Times I think) and I'd already come to the same conclusion about Johnson, namely that his ruthless ambition meant that he was desperate to become PM, but his aversion to detailed hard work meant that he did not fancy doing the work (the odd mock-Churchillian statement would suffice). He would then be happy to appear on late-night chat shows telling everyone how he lead Britain out of the EU and through the pandemic. Maybe I'm cynical but that's how I see it.
That's how quite a few of us outsiders have been seeing it for a year or more.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Papy Oli on June 08, 2020, 05:36:57 AM
One man cannot run a country and it has always been thus. Alastair Campbell was Tony Blair's special adviser and filled a similar role and enjoyed as much power as Cummings does today. Blair had a better cabinet then Johnson who with the exception of Gove and Sunak are useless. Morally Cummings should go but no way that is going to happen as he is a too important cog in the wheel of government. Spent firework is nice stick but have you no compassion for the difficulties and pressures encountered? Johnson got it wrong and made some poor calls but special times don't you know.

Lol,

just my 2p on this : Even if we give him a substantial slack given the worldwide unprecedented circumstances, has he or have any of his ministers actually acknowledged themselves that they have made any decisions or actions wrongly so far in the handling of this Covid crisis or might have done anything possibly differently at least ? To date, I think only some SAGE members have accepted that some actions have been late or incorrect early on.  Would that be correct ? This Sunday, Hancock still said in response they had taken all the right actions at any time. Even if we accept the argument that hindsight is a beautiful thing and that most countries have all been caught on the hop by the crisis, the UK was 2 weeks ahead of the curve and was seeing already the chaos that was happening in Italy or Spain...but he decided we should "take it on the chin" with a dollop of "real British common sense" all while "shaking hands in hospitals"...

Even if we have to credit him, rightly, for some of the actions (Sunak's furlough plan, Nightingale hospitals...), this doesn't make him (or his ministers) in my view any less accountable, particularly in those times, on the cabinet's decisions and actions that led so far to 40-50 thousand dead.

That wouldn't give him the right either to take that offended moral high ground when Keir Starmer had the "disrespect" to ask him uncomfortable yet precise and factual questions at last week's PMQ. Boris so desperately wanted that job. Well, PM is him now and just because it's him, it doesn't mean the Q have to be easy ones to suit him.

To avoid any misunderstanding, my gripe is with him, not you by the way :)  I have been in the UK for 22 years, I can't vote him out or keep him in, I am not allowed to vote for MP's. I just have to grin and bear it..and let me tell you, there has not been much grinning in the last 3-4 years. And that's coming from somebody that genuinely loves this country to bits... and from somebody who has been for 30 years on the (French) right of the political spectrum, now seriously questioning his own political convictions as well.

PS: since you mentioned her in a subsequent post, here is an hypothetical yet genuine question  ;D  Do you believe that Thatcher, leaving aside how one feels about her, would have shied away from such questioning and accountability in similar circumstances ?

This is a genuine question for my perspective. I do not have enough hindsight in her own media and parliamentary behaviour in her time, only some hunch that she would have faced those head-on based on how she was portrayed in the French media.  I knew, from the french view at the time, that she was polarising opinions , but until her death, I confess I had vastly under-estimated the actual hatred for her in the UK, let alone how polarising she was. Some recent BBC documentary series on her premiership and also on the Troubles were particularly educational for me on this period of UK politics. As you said, this could be one for another thread  0:)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Papy Oli on June 08, 2020, 05:52:22 AM
That is all fair comment and reasoned criticism and you could well be right.

Iota's response is indeed well put and more neutrally expressed than I could about our PM right now. Kudos  :-[

It is the snarling name calling and distortion of the character of politicians of both persuasions in this age of social media that I dislike.

Sadly, all sides are to blame for this sour turn in politics during the Brexit campaign.

I know power is most alluring but he would earn buckets of money in the commercial sector without the extreme hassle of running the basket case of UK. Give the guy some slack. I do not think it naive to believe the majority of politicians are in it to contribute.   

I don't remember who said it or where i read it some years ago but something has always stuck with me about politicians: every now and then, they should be reminded that they are not in power, they are in office. Food for thought.

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on June 08, 2020, 07:43:05 AM
Lol,

just my 2p on this : Even if we give him a substantial slack given the worldwide unprecedented circumstances, has he or have any of his ministers actually acknowledged themselves that they have made any decisions or actions wrongly so far in the handling of this Covid crisis or might have done anything possibly differently at least ? To date, I think only some SAGE members have accepted that some actions have been late or incorrect early on.  Would that be correct ? This Sunday, Hancock still said in response they had taken all the right actions at any time. Even if we accept the argument that hindsight is a beautiful thing and that most countries have all been caught on the hop by the crisis, the UK was 2 weeks ahead of the curve and was seeing already the chaos that was happening in Italy or Spain...but he decided we should "take it on the chin" with a dollop of "real British common sense" all while "shaking hands in hospitals"...

Even if we have to credit him, rightly, for some of the actions (Sunak's furlough plan, Nightingale hospitals...), this doesn't make him (or his ministers) in my view any less accountable, particularly in those times, on the cabinet's decisions and actions that led so far to 40-50 thousand dead.

That wouldn't give him the right either to take that offended moral high ground when Keir Starmer had the "disrespect" to ask him uncomfortable yet precise and factual questions at last week's PMQ. Boris so desperately wanted that job. Well, PM is him now and just because it's him, it doesn't mean the Q have to be easy ones to suit him.

To avoid any misunderstanding, my gripe is with him, not you by the way :)  I have been in the UK for 22 years, I can't vote him out or keep him in, I am not allowed to vote for MP's. I just have to grin and bear it..and let me tell you, there has not been much grinning in the last 3-4 years. And that's coming from somebody that genuinely loves this country to bits... and from somebody who has been for 30 years on the (French) right of the political spectrum, now seriously questioning his own political convictions as well.

PS: since you mentioned her in a subsequent post, here is an hypothetical yet genuine question  ;D  Do you believe that Thatcher, leaving aside how one feels about her, would have shied away from such questioning and accountability in similar circumstances ?

This is a genuine question for my perspective. I do not have enough hindsight in her own media and parliamentary behaviour in her time, only some hunch that she would have faced those head-on based on how she was portrayed in the French media.  I knew, from the french view at the time, that she was polarising opinions , but until her death, I confess I had vastly under-estimated the actual hatred for her in the UK, let alone how polarising she was. Some recent BBC documentary series on her premiership and also on the Troubles were particularly educational for me on this period of UK politics. As you said, this could be one for another thread  0:)

Olivier

A top post and a big thumbs up from me. Lives have been lost due to decisions made by this Government which is a tragedy for the country as a whole and of a greater magnitude if the loss is a family member or friend. The figures do not lie, a f--- up! There will be a day of reckoning in the form of an inquiry. As you rightly say, so there is little point in me repeating it,  they did get some things right and we will leave that there. The next test, and it could prove to be even bigger is getting the economy off it's knees and that is not going to be easy as we know. My son, with two children under four and hefty mortgage is employed in the travel industry - so yes I am worried.

All that said, leftie keyboard warriors give me the hump. I disliked Corbyn intensely but I kept that to myself out of consideration of people here and a wider circle of acquaintances. The left feel they have carte blanche to attack the person rather then the policy. Johnson is dishonest and all the other shite. They have enough ammunition to attack the policy and yet they go for the man.

You mention Thatcher, or rather I did. ;D I'm from a working class background, my father, Labour thru and thru hated Maggie with a vengeance. I was great disappointment as I worshipped her, but that didn't compare with he supported Arsenal and I West Ham! We still got on great though. :D I have asked myself how she would have handled this. As we know she didn't prevaricate and I don't think she would attempt to pass the buck by saying "we are following the science". So just maybe more lives would have been saved.

Anyway, great post Olivier and thank you for making it.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Papy Oli on June 08, 2020, 08:17:12 AM
Thanks Lol, I will have a few more thoughts on your response but that will have to wait tomorrow.

However, if you're a Hammer, we're going to have bigger problems than politics. Gunner here, of sorts (as it was the "French" team when i crossed the Channel back then to London), although, for British teams, big part of my heart is also "tractor boy" with Ipswich  8) .

Could be worse I s'pose, you could be supporting Chelsea (Yes, Jeffrey I am looking at you !!) or even Spurs  :laugh:  >:D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 08, 2020, 12:09:35 PM
Very thought-provoking and interesting exchange between Lol and Olivier, notwithstanding Olivier's 'Chelsea' comment. I actually think that we (in the UK) would have been better off with Theresa May in this crisis. She may not have been 'bubbling over with personality' but at least she seemed to possess a strong sense of duty and was prepared to work hard. I couldn't stand Thatcher. As a university student I thought that I might have to emigrate if she became PM. Oddly enough on the day Thatcher died or the day after I was interviewed about her on the local TV news. I'd like you to think that I was a specially chosen guest but, in point of fact, I simply looked old enough to be able to remember her when I was asked for my views in the local supermarket car park (the up-market Waitrose you understand) where I had been sent by my wife to do some shopping. Anyway, as I figured that I was quite likely to be seen on the local news by my pupils, their parents and my colleagues (which I was) I thought that I should give a balanced assessment, pointing out her importance in British History (first female PM) while also commenting on her being a divisive figure who polarised the country. Of course they only broadcast the negative stuff. Anyway the next day I was teaching my GCSE History class when one of them put up her hand and said 'my dad read a letter from you in the newspaper in the morning and then saw you on television in the evening'. I pointed out to the class that they should consider themselves very fortunate that I had managed to fit in their lesson between my various media appearances. At the end of the lesson a rather sarcastic girl asked me if I was off to a press conference.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Papy Oli on June 08, 2020, 12:36:29 PM
Great anecdotes as ever, Jeffrey  :laugh:

(...not holding the Chelsea thing against you...even if I saw your team at Stamford Bridge beating my French team - Bordeaux - 4-0 some years ago in the only Champions League I have ever attended  :(  ;) )

edit - that was in sept 2008 ...guess who was Mayor of London back then...yep...I am on topic and I can blame him for that too  :laugh:
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 08, 2020, 12:54:59 PM
Great anecdotes as ever, Jeffrey  :laugh:

(...not holding the Chelsea thing against you...even if I saw your team at Stamford Bridge beating my French team - Bordeaux - 4-0 some years ago in the only Champions League I have ever attended  :(  ;) )

edit - that was in sept 2008 ...guess who was Mayor of London back then...yep...I am on topic and I can blame him for that too  :laugh:
Hi Olivier - I didn't mind him so much as Mayor of London mainly because I couldn't stand Ken Livingstone. I was born and grew up near Chelsea, hence the family connection which goes back to the pre-war generations. My maternal grandfather, whom I never knew, ran a pub in Chelsea. 😀
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: SimonNZ on June 08, 2020, 01:50:53 PM

This is a genuine question for my perspective. I do not have enough hindsight in her own media and parliamentary behaviour in her time, only some hunch that she would have faced those head-on based on how she was portrayed in the French media.  I knew, from the french view at the time, that she was polarising opinions , but until her death, I confess I had vastly under-estimated the actual hatred for her in the UK, let alone how polarising she was. Some recent BBC documentary series on her premiership and also on the Troubles were particularly educational for me on this period of UK politics. As you said, this could be one for another thread  0:)

Which was this?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 08, 2020, 01:56:35 PM
Which was this?

Jumping in here but possibly 'Thatcher: A Very British Revolution' which was broadcast last year.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0005brf
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: SimonNZ on June 08, 2020, 03:12:50 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Papy Oli on June 08, 2020, 11:20:19 PM
Jumping in here but possibly 'Thatcher: A Very British Revolution' which was broadcast last year.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0005brf

That's the one, 5 episodes of it.
Thanks Jeffrey  :)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 08, 2020, 11:40:11 PM
That's the one, 5 episodes of it.
Thanks Jeffrey  :)

Morning Olivier - Yes, it was an excellent series that I found compulsive viewing. I hope that Simon can track it down in NZ.
Jeffrey
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Papy Oli on June 09, 2020, 04:22:17 AM
In case of interest, the series about the Troubles I was referring to is this one :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m0008yrj/spotlight-on-the-troubles-a-secret-history (https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m0008yrj/spotlight-on-the-troubles-a-secret-history)

7 episodes, gripping and not shying away from any uncomfortable angles of the history.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on June 09, 2020, 05:50:23 AM
Thanks Lol, I will have a few more thoughts on your response but that will have to wait tomorrow.

However, if you're a Hammer, we're going to have bigger problems than politics. Gunner here, of sorts (as it was the "French" team when i crossed the Channel back then to London), although, for British teams, big part of my heart is also "tractor boy" with Ipswich  8) .

Could be worse I s'pose, you could be supporting Chelsea (Yes, Jeffrey I am looking at you !!) or even Spurs  :laugh:  >:D

I am sure you are aware Olivier that when Celtic play Rangers it is the Old firm derby and when Ipswich play Norwich it is the Old farm derby. ;D Observing your French heritage, Arsenal had a few but the Hammers had the best of all, Dimitri Payet.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Papy Oli on June 09, 2020, 06:06:27 AM
I am sure you are aware Olivier that when Celtic play Rangers it is the Old firm derby and when Ipswich play Norwich it is the Old farm derby. ;D Observing your French heritage, Arsenal had a few but the Hammers had the best of all, Dimitri Payet.

Bad enough you mention the budgies but on top of it you bring up Payet, who is a Marseille player, which as a childhood Bordeaux fan, is errr.... problematic...  >:D

How does one use that ignore list again ?   :laugh:
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on June 09, 2020, 06:14:11 AM
Very thought-provoking and interesting exchange between Lol and Olivier, notwithstanding Olivier's 'Chelsea' comment. I actually think that we (in the UK) would have been better off with Theresa May in this crisis. She may not have been 'bubbling over with personality' but at least she seemed to possess a strong sense of duty and was prepared to work hard. I couldn't stand Thatcher. As a university student I thought that I might have to emigrate if she became PM. Oddly enough on the day Thatcher died or the day after I was interviewed about her on the local TV news. I'd like you to think that I was a specially chosen guest but, in point of fact, I simply looked old enough to be able to remember her when I was asked for my views in the local supermarket car park (the up-market Waitrose you understand) where I had been sent by my wife to do some shopping. Anyway, as I figured that I was quite likely to be seen on the local news by my pupils, their parents and my colleagues (which I was) I thought that I should give a balanced assessment, pointing out her importance in British History (first female PM) while also commenting on her being a divisive figure who polarised the country. Of course they only broadcast the negative stuff. Anyway the next day I was teaching my GCSE History class when one of them put up her hand and said 'my dad read a letter from you in the newspaper in the morning and then saw you on television in the evening'. I pointed out to the class that they should consider themselves very fortunate that I had managed to fit in their lesson between my various media appearances. At the end of the lesson a rather sarcastic girl asked me if I was off to a press conference.

But she couldn't win an election Jeffrey - well she did, but you know what I mean. Johnson earned his power, how he uses it is another kettle of fish.

Changing the subject entirely but all bound up with "hate" and entrenched views, a black lady bristling with indignation in connection with the George Floyd death phoned a LBC phone-in. The outcome is not as expected.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/heated-debate-diversity-in-the-media/
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 09, 2020, 06:19:43 AM
Re: Margaret Thatcher

I am very well aware of how divisive she was --- maybe still is --- in the UK, but I have to say that her staunch, principled, uncompromising anti-Communist stance won the warm and ever-lasting affection of many Romanian freedom lovers (yours truly included). During the 1980s she shone, together with Ronald Reagan and Pope John Paul II, as a beacon of hope for us. If I ever go to England, I would really like to put some roses on her grave. As far as I'm concerned, she was a brave and noble soul. May the one who is without sin cast the first stone on her memory.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 09, 2020, 06:43:21 AM
Re: Margaret Thatcher

I am very well aware of how divisive she was --- maybe still is --- in the UK, but I have to say that her staunch, principled, uncompromising anti-Communist stance won the warm and ever-lasting affection of many Romanian freedom lovers (yours truly included). During the 1980s she shone, together with Ronald Reagan and Pope John Paul II, as a beacon of hope for us. If I ever go to England, I would really like to put some roses on her grave. As far as I'm concerned, she was a brave and noble soul. May the one who is without sin cast the first stone on her memory.
Like President Gorbachev I think that she was much more universally admired on the continent than at home. I was no fan of Theresa May either. It was a pity that when Thatcher was in power the Labour opposition was so useless (Michael Foot) I wish that Denis Healey had been chosen instead as there would be a stronger opposition. Back to the present, at least Sir Kier Starmer is far more effective than the hopeless IMO Jeremy Corbyn.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 09, 2020, 06:51:43 AM
Like President Gorbachev I think that she was much more universally admired on the continent than at home.

True. But while Gorbachev wanted nothing else than to reform but preserve the USSR, Thatcher wanted its dismantling altogether. That's why Gorbachev was never as popular in Romania as Thatcher was.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Roasted Swan on June 09, 2020, 07:00:23 AM
Re: Margaret Thatcher

I am very well aware of how divisive she was --- maybe still is --- in the UK, but I have to say that her staunch, principled, uncompromising anti-Communist stance won the warm and ever-lasting affection of many Romanian freedom lovers (yours truly included). During the 1980s she shone, together with Ronald Reagan and Pope John Paul II, as a beacon of hope for us. If I ever go to England, I would really like to put some roses on her grave. As far as I'm concerned, she was a brave and noble soul. May the one who is without sin cast the first stone on her memory.

Easy to be staunch and principled when its at a distance.  Personally I loathed everything she stood for.  Remember she said "there is no such thing as society".  She destroyed so much of social value in the UK in the name of Privatisation and "market forces".  Here's a memory from Spitting Image.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjE080TGEEk

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 09, 2020, 07:08:22 AM
Remember she said "there is no such thing as society". 

What she actually said, in full:

   “I think we have been through a period when too many people have been given to understand that when they have a problem it is government’s job to cope with it. ‘I have a problem, I’ll get a grant. I’m homeless, the government must house me.’ They are casting their problems on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no governments can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours. People have got their entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There is no such thing as an entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation.”

I don't necessarily agree 100% but the principle is sound.

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: knight66 on June 09, 2020, 12:03:03 PM
That is an interesting quote and I could spend some time deconstructing it. I tend not to join in the discussions of the current situations. I use Twitter as a safety valve for my anger and frustration. But this is history, though that history is still with us.

I will just raise that final sentence that is quoted. ‘There is no such thing as an entitlement, unless someone has met an obligation.’

Really? This is where her, no such thing as society, claim leads her.

A citizen has quite a number of both rights and entitlements: education, medical care, to vote: there are three right off the top of my head where I argue that there are no obligations to be met before the entitlement kicks in. Possibly in her mind she was narrowing the entitlements to the things that irked her, what she termed as the Welfare State mentality. People who had not worked for a long time and had no intension of working if they could live off the state.

No doubt there were some such people. I remember visiting friends in South Wales, one was a secondary teacher. He was new to the area and horrified that he was teaching the children of 2nd generation unemployed people who saw no point in education or in working. That was a problem she inherited and she worked to break that idea and to a limited extent was successful. Though her solutions were not social engineering so much as cutting off the oxygen supply.

But to the extent she cured that attitude, she more than balanced it by destroying communities in the North of England, who still have not recovered. Where whole towns became devastated and nothing put in place To help, really just a cold hearted message of, get on your bike.

I loathed her, but we certainly would not be in the danger we are now with her.

I saw a question on this thread about whether she would have cooperated with rigorous questioning. She did engage with interviewers who were tough such as Robin Day. But I was thinking of the woman who caught her out misleading us about the order to sink the Belgrano. She was outraged at being cornered, saying how could a prime minister of Great Britain be so insulted? (By a real voting citizen.) She draped herself in the flag in a despicable way. So, the answer I think is that she would have supplied more information, she would have thought through what her government was doing and to an extent, she would have allowed herself to be interviewed in such a way that played to her strengths.

She was no hero to a lot of us in the UK. There may be admiration of her in Eastern Europe, but she had ulterior motives. She wanted to weaken the USSR and chose an intelligent way of doing so, That it helped people in Eastern Europe was a byproduct that she used as camouflage in her attempts to weaken the USSR.  She was noticeably unhelpful to countries and oppressed peoples in Africa, supporting apartide and regarding Mandela as a criminal. There was nothing that she saw as advantageous to GB, so she was not going to help those oppressed people.

Mike
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 09, 2020, 12:18:16 PM
[Margaret Thatcher] was no hero to a lot of us in the UK.

As I said, I am very well aware of that.

Quote
There may be admiration of her in Eastern Europe, but she had ulterior motives. She wanted to weaken the USSR and chose an intelligent way of doing so, That it helped people in Eastern Europe was a byproduct that she used as camouflage in her attempts to weaken the USSR. 

Any Western politician who wanted to weaken the USSR, and succeeded in so doing, have my deepest admiration and sincerest gratitude. The USSR was the greatest, most dangerous enemy of my country, greater still than Tsarist Russia ever was. I can never be too thankful to anyone who helped its being dismantled.

And this is going to be my last post on Thatcher.



Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Papy Oli on June 09, 2020, 12:43:14 PM

....

I loathed her, but we certainly would not be in the danger we are now with her.

I saw a question on this thread about whether she would have cooperated with rigorous questioning. She did engage with interviewers who were tough such as Robin Day. But I was thinking of the woman who caught her out misleading us about the order to sink the Belgrano. She was outraged at being cornered, saying how could a prime minister of Great Britain be so insulted? (By a real voting citizen.) She draped herself in the flag in a despicable way. So, the answer I think is that she would have supplied more information, she would have thought through what her government was doing and to an extent, she would have allowed herself to be interviewed in such a way that played to her strengths.

....

Mike

Thank you Mike. I appreciate this additional perspective on what was a very hypothetical question.

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 09, 2020, 08:14:35 PM
True. But while Gorbachev wanted nothing else than to reform but preserve the USSR, Thatcher wanted its dismantling altogether. That's why Gorbachev was never as popular in Romania as Thatcher was.
Yes, I can understand that.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 09, 2020, 08:15:45 PM
Easy to be staunch and principled when its at a distance.  Personally I loathed everything she stood for.  Remember she said "there is no such thing as society".  She destroyed so much of social value in the UK in the name of Privatisation and "market forces".  Here's a memory from Spitting Image.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjE080TGEEk
Agree with this.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on June 10, 2020, 05:18:11 AM
I thought that BJ came out well in PMQs today with KS. He reinforced the image of a government proceeding very cautiously -- baby steps -- which has been a major part of the Tory discourse for a while, and is, I supposed, designed to win public confidence. And he cast quite a bit of shame on KS --who is now just a shyster lawyer who will say anything to score a point, regardless of whether its true or not (international comparisons of COVID deaths) , someone who changes with the wind (schools should open this week, stay closed last.)


What a pair!
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on June 10, 2020, 05:59:52 AM
I thought that BJ came out well in PMQs today with KS. He reinforced the image of a government proceeding very cautiously -- baby steps -- which has been a major part of the Tory discourse for a while, and is, I supposed, designed to win public confidence. And he cast quite a bit of shame on KS --who is now just a shyster lawyer who will say anything to score a point, regardless of whether its true or not (international comparisons of COVID deaths) , someone who changes with the wind (schools should open this week, stay closed last.)


What a pair!

Didn't expect this but fair play...........
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on June 10, 2020, 06:07:07 AM


And this is going to be my last post on Thatcher.

Most wise.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on July 04, 2020, 12:54:54 PM
(https://i.imgflip.com/427hai.jpg)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Iota on July 04, 2020, 01:20:16 PM
Risky or not, the sound of people laughing, chatting and drinking again outside the local here in N.London, was certainly a cheering sound to these ears.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on July 04, 2020, 09:53:41 PM
I know power is most alluring but he would earn buckets of money in the commercial sector without the extreme hassle of running the basket case of UK. Give the guy some slack. I do not think it naive to believe the majority of politicians are in it to contribute.   
 

I wonder if this "sacrificing a lucrative career in the private sector" applies in BJ's case.

In his life before, all he's done is write for the newspapers, in which he's been admittedly quite effective, just as Trump's 'The Apprentice' used to be effective in terms of ratings. But I suspect BJ would not be able to keep hiself from running a business into the ground, if he ever came back from his liquid lunch.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on July 04, 2020, 10:17:02 PM
About Thatcher and her "there is no such thing as society" line, I guess you have to keep in mind where she was coming from. People, especially conservatives IMO, have this habit of making granite, or bronze statues of these leaders, fit for eternity, but in reality all these people were just responding to their times.

Thatcher was coming from the Seventies, when there was serious talk (as there is now) of suspending the economy for a section of the population and just giving them a living wage because the jobs just weren't there. That's what she was responding to. She didn't want that, and I tend to think that it's not a great idea to let people stand by the wayside all their lives. It doesn't make for happier people. People get angry, feeling useless. Thatcher did this in a contradictory fashion, because she was not really a job creator herself if one thinks of the devastation up North, so basically she was just a part of the puzzle, and needed Blair to come after her. In many respects the larger part of Thatcher's legacy has been negative and destructive. Even in the case of 'dismantling' the USSR one cannot help but wonder what has come in its place and whether that's really much better.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on July 05, 2020, 01:59:22 AM
It may have only merited a few paragraphs in the student newspaper and have taken place 33 years ago, but an Oxford Union Society “slave auction” in which Boris Johnson and Michael Gove were involved is powerful proof of how politicians’ pasts can come back to haunt them. (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/05/gove-and-johnson-sold-as-slaves-at-oxford-student-charity-event)

Oops.... After Trudeau's blackface, it's now Boris' turn....  ::)

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on July 05, 2020, 03:03:51 AM
In fraternities and the like this is just par for the course.

It's automatic, you never have to wait long before the "jokes" about PoC and 'slaves" and "stupid" come up.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on July 05, 2020, 05:26:25 AM
In fraternities and the like this is just par for the course.

It's automatic, you never have to wait long before the "jokes" about PoC and 'slaves" and "stupid" come up.

Indeed, it's funny how people feel the need to humiliate and ridicule others to feel superior.

Reason why I never was a member of a fraternity in university - have no personal need for that kind of stuff.

And I guess it's now not a good idea if you aspire to a career in politics either...  :D

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on July 05, 2020, 10:14:54 AM
I wasn't in a fraternity either, but some of my friends were.

And now back to the UK, and stories about the first weekend with the Pubs doing business.

Stories about drunk men in the street, naked.

Has any research been done about what inebriated men are trying to achieve by walking about naked?

Anybody have a clue?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on July 05, 2020, 10:18:53 AM
Somehow I have a sneaking suspicion that some men, when drunk, think going naked is a good way to get into contact with a woman.

After all, men like looking at naked women, and if sufficiently inebriated*, they think women feel the same way.

* men
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on July 06, 2020, 11:49:52 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ebv5D_UX0AECKVD?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: MusicTurner on July 07, 2020, 12:46:09 AM
-> Bruegel/Breughel, and a good deal of stuff added, of course
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Triumph_of_Death
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 07, 2020, 12:48:17 AM
I think that he's shot himself in the foot (again) by trying to blame the care home staff for the 20,000 Coronavirus deaths in that sector.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eqRUy-DNS2Q

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/07/care-home-chief-denounces-clumsy-and-cowardly-boris-johnson-comments
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Papy Oli on July 07, 2020, 01:02:11 AM
I think that he's shot himself in the foot (again) by trying to blame the care home staff for the 20,000 Coronavirus deaths in that sector.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eqRUy-DNS2Q

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/07/care-home-chief-denounces-clumsy-and-cowardly-boris-johnson-comments

Clap for carers on Sunday, crap on carers on Monday...

it is apparently too soon for an inquiry but it is not too soon to blame everybody else...
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on July 07, 2020, 01:03:28 AM
Downing St says that he wasn't blaming care homes but  “pointing out that nobody knew what the correct procedures were because the extent of asymptomatic transmission was not known at the time”

This is an essential point, because at some point there's going to be an investigation of whether the Government wrongly discharged people who did not show COVID symptoms back into care homes, causing many  thousands of premature deaths. Their response, I think, will be that, yes, with hindsight, it would have been better not to have made the transfers, but "the extent of asymptomatic transmission was not known at the time." Hancock began to sow the seeds of this defence in the Marr show on Sunday. 
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 07, 2020, 07:40:58 AM
Yes, but what Johnson actually said was not that 'nobody knew' the right procedures but that the care homes didn't follow the right procedures. He is now trying to furiously back-pedal.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on July 07, 2020, 08:14:56 AM
Slip of the tongue I suspect, it’s a storm in a teacup.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: MusicTurner on July 07, 2020, 08:53:26 AM
Slip of the tongue I suspect, it’s a storm in a teacup.

And then even just a tea-cup of this size. For sure.


Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Papy Oli on July 07, 2020, 09:15:16 AM
Slip of the tongue I suspect, it’s a storm in a teacup.

Care home staff interviewed on the local news tonight would beg to differ. A carer who stayed away from her family for 3 months working in her care home asked Boris Johnson "to get his backside over here and do their job for only a day and see how it works out for him..."...

Seething doesn't even come close by the looks of it...
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 07, 2020, 12:48:47 PM
Yes, it was the tone of Johnson's remark which made it clear what he meant.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on July 07, 2020, 10:54:21 PM
Care home staff interviewed on the local news tonight would beg to differ. A carer who stayed away from her family for 3 months working in her care home asked Boris Johnson "to get his backside over here and do their job for only a day and see how it works out for him..."...

Seething doesn't even come close by the looks of it...

She needs to be careful what she wishes for as I could see Boris doing that. OK, caring may turn out not to be his forte but bet he would cheer up the residents. :D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Papy Oli on July 07, 2020, 11:42:49 PM
She needs to be careful what she wishes for as I could see Boris doing that. OK, caring may turn out not to be his forte but bet he would cheer up the residents. :D

Fair point...  ;D considering how he went about handling a mop when he visited a flooded town some months ago, they'll be bound to laugh...or they'll have his guts for garters...not sure..

More importantly, what actually IS his forte ?? I mean...a positive one.. :P :P
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on July 09, 2020, 12:48:36 AM
Fair point...  ;D considering how he went about handling a mop when he visited a flooded town some months ago, they'll be bound to laugh...or they'll have his guts for garters...not sure..

More importantly, what actually IS his forte ?? I mean...a positive one.. :P :P

https://youtu.be/kE186w91YVU
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Papy Oli on July 09, 2020, 12:53:43 AM
https://youtu.be/kE186w91YVU (https://youtu.be/kE186w91YVU)

well, yes, there's always that...  :laugh:

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on July 09, 2020, 01:27:07 AM


More importantly, what actually IS his forte ?? I mean...a positive one.. :P :P

Lying
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on July 10, 2020, 06:22:03 AM
Lying

Always been thus.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on July 10, 2020, 08:39:36 AM
Boris Johnson plans radical shake-up of NHS in bid to regain more direct control
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/10/boris-johnson-plans-radical-shake-up-of-nhs-in-bid-to-regain-more-direct-control


I am completely disoriented. The Tories are more lefty than Labour!
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 13, 2020, 01:58:58 PM
Boris Johnson plans radical shake-up of NHS in bid to regain more direct control
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/10/boris-johnson-plans-radical-shake-up-of-nhs-in-bid-to-regain-more-direct-control


I am completely disoriented. The Tories are more lefty than Labour!
What do you gents (and any women who are here) in the UK think would be the best way to deal with issues re your NHS?  I'm struggling to keep up with all of the news these days.  Last I heard, waiting times for appointments could be quite long?  Is there much/any private practice which is not part of the NHS?  And how many people can afford it?

PD
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on July 14, 2020, 06:46:24 AM
What do you gents (and any women who are here) in the UK think would be the best way to deal with issues re your NHS?  I'm struggling to keep up with all of the news these days.  Last I heard, waiting times for appointments could be quite long?  Is there much/any private practice which is not part of the NHS?  And how many people can afford it?

PD

I'm not sure there are issues concerning the NHS, P. They have done a sterling job during the Covid crises. No organisation is perfect but whenever myself or my family has required their services the treatment we have received has been first class in every way. There is of course a backlog of non-Covid related issues for patients to be addressed but that is to be expected although regrettable. Private medical care has a role to play in the UK. The care is no better then the NHS, I have experience of both, but treatment is at a time of the patient's choosing. Most, if not all, private care is insurance related.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on July 14, 2020, 08:39:42 AM
What do you gents (and any women who are here) in the UK think would be the best way to deal with issues re your NHS?  I'm struggling to keep up with all of the news these days.  Last I heard, waiting times for appointments could be quite long?  Is there much/any private practice which is not part of the NHS?  And how many people can afford it?

PD

Yes it’s not clear to me what Boris thinks he will achieve by a radical shake up of the NHS, other than maybe make it easier to sell off large parts of it into the private sector - American medical companies are probably drooling with the anticipation of getting their dirty little mits on on the UK’s health $ector.

The two big problems in the NHS I’ve personally experienced are to do with the interaction between health and social care, and with dentistry.  The UKs system for looking after people at home is appalling, and it can mean that patients can’t be discharged from hospital, even though they’re well, because there’s no one to make sure they’re safe at home.

What I’ve not experienced, but I know is a major problem, is long waiting times for elective surgery - orthopaedic surgery and physiotherapy for example.

Dentistry has become very expensive here, and I’m sure than many people suffer because they can’t find a way of paying for their treatment. I sometime think that when I was younger I would spend all my money on my house; now I spend it all on my teeth.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 14, 2020, 08:56:18 AM
I was thinking more of pre-Covid times.  I thought I remembered comments from others (probably elsewhere) of long wait times to see specialists?

And, yes, dental is expensive here too unless you happen to work for a big enough company that will also offer a decent dental plan.  A basic cleaning can be over a hundred dollars.  X-rays $80 or so.

And, certainly not intending to slam your health care workers...particularly after all they've been through and still doing to help people!  Just more curious about the system and what they are hoping on changing/fixing and why.

The one experience I had with your NHS was back in I want to say early '90's?  On a trip there with family and caught a sinus infection on the way over (before really).  Can't remember whether it was the same day or the next day, I went to a hospital to see a doctor and get some medicine.  They did an x-ray (at no charge) and I only had to pay a small amount for the three medicines even though I was a foreigner.  And treated very nicely too!   :)

PD
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 14, 2020, 09:19:16 AM
I don't have any problem with the NHS as a whole. We are very lucky to have it here. Also, if you have something which could be serious they tend to refer you to a specialist very quickly (within two weeks). However, for non-emergency treatment the wait can be very long. Some time ago I had some investigations and the NHS sent me to a local private hospital for them. As I was a NHS patient I didn't have to pay anything for them. In the UK private medicine is quite small in comparison with the NHS. In education it is the other way round and more people send their children to private/independent school in comparison for those who pay for private medical treatment. That's my understanding anyway.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on July 14, 2020, 10:55:22 AM
Thanks for your personal insight Jeffrey.   :)

PD
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: knight66 on July 17, 2020, 10:24:21 PM
Boris Johnson plans radical shake-up of NHS in bid to regain more direct control
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/10/boris-johnson-plans-radical-shake-up-of-nhs-in-bid-to-regain-more-direct-control


I am completely disoriented. The Tories are more lefty than Labour!

As far as I am concerned, this is a ploy to enable the NHS to be more easily privatised. Elements have been and various Tory politicians have a history of calling for radical privatisation. With the great effort the NHS has put into care during the pandemic, it makes it more difficult to sell the idea of privatisation to the public, but they are busy slicing the salami behind the scenes.

I have had the experience of a private medicine operation then being sorted out in the NHS. I really value the service and look on in horror at the stories I read and hear of about medicine in the USA.

Mike
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on July 18, 2020, 07:21:08 AM
As far as I am concerned, this is a ploy to enable the NHS to be more easily privatised. Elements have been and various Tory politicians have a history of calling for radical privatisation. With the great effort the NHS has put into care during the pandemic, it makes it more difficult to sell the idea of privatisation to the public, but they are busy slicing the salami behind the scenes.

I have had the experience of a private medicine operation then being sorted out in the NHS. I really value the service and look on in horror at the stories I read and hear of about medicine in the USA.

Mike

That ship has long since sailed and I can't understand why the left keep banging on about it! It is as not if there isn't enough  genuine and current cock-ups from the Tories which any half-competent opposition could not have a field day with. Tories, God knows how, dismantled the "red wall" and then sells off the NHS? Absolutely no chance.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on August 13, 2020, 12:31:14 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EfSfiA1WsAAmiln?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on August 13, 2020, 05:37:00 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EfSfiA1WsAAmiln?format=jpg&name=large)

Is that Phil Mitchell from"Eastenders" sitting at the desk?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Papy Oli on August 13, 2020, 05:45:25 AM
It is.

Here is the source: https://twitter.com/Coldwar_Steve (https://twitter.com/Coldwar_Steve)

Dark and devastating photo-montages on the current political climate.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on August 13, 2020, 06:00:59 AM
Johnson, of course, is nowhere to be seen during the current A Level Results Fiasco. And it is a big fiasco.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: steve ridgway on August 13, 2020, 07:50:19 AM
Johnson, of course, is nowhere to be seen during the current A Level Results Fiasco. And it is a big fiasco.

Yes, awful for all those students feeling politicians have ruined their lives. Although they’ll be prepared for the corporate “performance review” and “pay award” system later in life :'(.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on August 14, 2020, 12:54:40 PM
Yes, awful for all those students feeling politicians have ruined their lives. Although they’ll be prepared for the corporate “performance review” and “pay award” system later in life :'(.
Had they simply accepted the teacher's predictions there would have been none of this omnishambles. Ok, there would have been a slight grade inflation, mainly at the lower end, but that is no more than the current cohort of students deserve in view of all the disruption to their education.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on August 20, 2020, 06:37:45 AM
Had they simply accepted the teacher's predictions there would have been none of this omnishambles. Ok, there would have been a slight grade inflation, mainly at the lower end, but that is no more than the current cohort of students deserve in view of all the disruption to their education.

All our lives have been disrupted, Jeffrey. My son, with two kids and a mortgage may lose his job at the end of this month. A young lady interviewed on BBC last week was saying through tears her life was ruined as her grades were not sufficient for entry in university. No it's not! Disappointment and failure, deserved or not, make us stronger. I should know! 8)   
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on August 20, 2020, 11:17:07 AM
All our lives have been disrupted, Jeffrey. My son, with two kids and a mortgage may lose his job at the end of this month. A young lady interviewed on BBC last week was saying through tears her life was ruined as her grades were not sufficient for entry in university. No it's not! Disappointment and failure, deserved or not, make us stronger. I should know! 8)   
Very wise point Lol. In fact the student whose 'life was ruined' because she did not have good enough grades for veterinary college should now have perked up as the govt finally agreed to use the teacher predictions as a guide to the final grade, as they clearly should have done in the first place. Sorry to hear about your son Lol and I hope that he does not lose his job. My Churchill quote below expresses my view on failure and disappointment. Another one I like is from the Buddhist tradition:
'There is praise and blame, loss and gain, pleasure and pain, fame and disrepute. Did you think this would not happen to you?'
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on August 21, 2020, 05:57:21 AM
Very wise point Lol. In fact the student whose 'life was ruined' because she did not have good enough grades for veterinary college should now have perked up as the govt finally agreed to use the teacher predictions as a guide to the final grade, as they clearly should have done in the first place. Sorry to hear about your son Lol and I hope that he does not lose his job. My Churchill quote below expresses my view on failure and disappointment. Another one I like is from the Buddhist tradition:
'There is praise and blame, loss and gain, pleasure and pain, fame and disrepute. Did you think this would not happen to you?'

That is perfect, Jeffrey. A visit in the summer to the small green area in front of Royal Marsden Hospital in Sutton brings that line of Buddhist wisdom in sharp relief.

A late friend worked for the MOD and I recall him telling me that Gavin Williamson, then Minister for Defence, is absolutely useless. May soon turfed him out and I was shocked when Johnson brought him back. Intentions were correct, but as you know far better then me the algorithm had a fatal flaw. Williamson was warned of this which he chose to ignore but then Scotland happened and he still did nothing! He has to go.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Papy Oli on August 21, 2020, 06:05:21 AM
Former chief whip displays whip and little book on desk this week during A Levels interview to remind MP's of his former position and what he may or may not know about said MP's that may be calling for his sacking ? Maybe ? Just maybe...  ;D

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ef0EJvwXkAAli7Z?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on August 21, 2020, 06:50:58 AM
Our leader


(https://i.ibb.co/YTKDZYr/Capture.png)

(https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Daily-Mail-18.jpg)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Papy Oli on August 21, 2020, 06:52:52 AM
Our leader


for all in tents and purposes...  0:)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on August 21, 2020, 07:08:12 AM
Onslow Bouquet has about as much charisma

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/keepingupappearances/images/7/7b/Onslow.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150102192013)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Iota on August 21, 2020, 07:15:52 AM
Our leader

He's the most un-leader like leader I can ever recall us having.

It still seems odd seeing the Daily Wail turn on their own, but hardly ever seeing it I may be out of touch.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Iota on August 21, 2020, 07:19:04 AM
for all in tents and purposes...  0:)

Hehe.

(At the risk of repeating myself ..)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on August 22, 2020, 05:26:22 AM
Our leader


(https://i.ibb.co/YTKDZYr/Capture.png)

(https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Daily-Mail-18.jpg)

It just maybe what wins him elections.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on August 22, 2020, 05:29:34 AM
He's the most un-leader like leader I can ever recall us having.

It still seems odd seeing the Daily Wail turn on their own, but hardly ever seeing it I may be out of touch.

They will change their tune six months before an election - trust me (I'm a reader :)).
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on August 22, 2020, 05:33:23 AM
for all in tents and purposes...  0:)

 ;D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on August 22, 2020, 07:10:00 PM
Deloitte gets another huge COVID contract – for ‘crazy’ plan to test millions each day

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/deloitte-gets-another-huge-covid-contract-for-crazy-plan-to-test-millions-each-day/


(Not at all sure what to make of this, which may be fake news)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on August 23, 2020, 09:46:01 PM
Our leader


(https://i.ibb.co/YTKDZYr/Capture.png)

(https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Daily-Mail-18.jpg)
It's interesting that the right wing Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph have been critical of Johnson. I sometimes read the Mail and like the articles by Max Hastings but my daughter gets furious with me if she sees a copy of the Daily Mail in the house. Yet another thing I'm in trouble for.   ::)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on August 24, 2020, 12:16:45 AM
It's interesting that the right wing Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph have been critical of Johnson. I sometimes read the Mail and like the articles by Max Hastings but my daughter gets furious with me if she sees a copy of the Daily Mail in the house. Yet another thing I'm in trouble for.   ::)

. Look at this from the Telegraph

https://milled.com/telegraph-travel/a-catastrophic-economic-doom-loop-H5B0jkUyPK_Xkkk1
Quote
Dear reader,

Following the series of fiascos over the past few weeks and months, Philip Johnston asks how long this Government will be able to survive the “stench of incompetence”. Voters will forgive many things, but not the exam results debacle, he argues. Don’t miss his column.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/19/britain-sucked-catastrophic-economic-doom-loop/
Quote
Britain is about to be sucked into a catastrophic economic doom loop
Huge state spending is set to trap the UK in a vicious circle of higher taxes and permanently lower growth


BJ has done his job, he’s made Brexit happen. He’s dispensable now. The knives are out, Gove will be waiting in the wings to take his job.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Scion7 on August 26, 2020, 05:38:00 AM
I do wish the old boy was a bit more ... Longshankian:

" The Battle of Crécy was fought on 26 August 1346 in north-east France during the Hundred Years' War. It resulted in a victory for a greatly outnumbered English army led by King Edward III over the French led by King Philip VI and heavy loss of life among the French.  "

It's not too late to take Calais back ...
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 26, 2020, 08:41:39 AM
Johnson, of course, is nowhere to be seen during the current A Level Results Fiasco. And it is a big fiasco.
How does that normally work in the UK and how are they adjusting it now?  From what I understand, it's a series of tests that students need to take to get into a university?  Are they all taken at the end of their final year of school?  And do you need to take them in all subjects?  Or just certain ones (that you want to study at uni)?

PD
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on August 26, 2020, 12:53:54 PM
How does that normally work in the UK and how are they adjusting it now?  From what I understand, it's a series of tests that students need to take to get into a university?  Are they all taken at the end of their final year of school?  And do you need to take them in all subjects?  Or just certain ones (that you want to study at uni)?

PD
They are taken at the end of the academic year (Year 13 here) when the students are c.18 and they act as a university or Higher Education entrance exam. After age 16 (GCSE exams) school pupils here specialise in just three or maybe four subjects. It's not like the International Baccalaureate where you continue with a wider range of subjects, although some school here do IB or Pre-U instead of A Levels. I teach Pre-U History of Art and for many decades taught A Level History.
They (the govt.) made a terrible mess of it by basing the estimated grade on how well the school did in the past! Crazy as it discriminated, for example, against high achieving students at poorly performing schools. For example, a clearly very bright girl who had a place at veterinary college depending on her results of As or Bs was awarded C and D grades. She said that her life had been ruined. As a result of this kind of thing the govt. had to perform a U-turn and instead of relying on an estimated grade through an algorithm it decided, as it should have done in the first place, to use the teacher's estimated grade. As a result of this the results will be slightly higher than usual as teachers will tend to give their students the benefit of the doubt when predicting grades. However, no one's life will be 'ruined' by this. They don't trust the teachers and, in this country (England) decisions are made about education by politicians who have no experience of teaching or education and just want to advance their political careers.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 27, 2020, 02:59:00 AM
They are taken at the end of the academic year (Year 13 here) when the students are c.18 and they act as a university or Higher Education entrance exam. After age 16 (GCSE exams) school pupils here specialise in just three or maybe four subjects. It's not like the International Baccalaureate where you continue with a wider range of subjects, although some school here do IB or Pre-U instead of A Levels. I teach Pre-U History of Art and for many decades taught A Level History.
They (the govt.) made a terrible mess of it by basing the estimated grade on how well the school did in the past! Crazy as it discriminated, for example, against high achieving students at poorly performing schools. For example, a clearly very bright girl who had a place at veterinary college depending on her results of As or Bs was awarded C and D grades. She said that her life had been ruined. As a result of this kind of thing the govt. had to perform a U-turn and instead of relying on an estimated grade through an algorithm it decided, as it should have done in the first place, to use the teacher's estimated grade. As a result of this the results will be slightly higher than usual as teachers will tend to give their students the benefit of the doubt when predicting grades. However, no one's life will be 'ruined' by this. They don't trust the teachers and, in this country (England) decisions are made about education by politicians who have no experience of teaching or education and just want to advance their political careers.
Thanks Jeffrey!

PD
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on August 27, 2020, 07:42:45 AM
Thanks Jeffrey!

PD
My pleasure PD.
I'm back at school tomorrow  :o ??? ::)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 27, 2020, 08:13:48 AM
My pleasure PD.
I'm back at school tomorrow  :o ??? ::)
I meant to ask you about that.  Do you know what precautions will be put in place and what new rules you'll be asked to follow?

PD
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on August 27, 2020, 08:26:48 AM
I meant to ask you about that.  Do you know what precautions will be put in place and what new rules you'll be asked to follow?

PD

Sure, although the government's guidelines change every 5 minutes.
The Design and Technology Dept have made us all visors and we must wear face coverings ( I have one made by the Textiles dept.) when in the corridors or communal areas but not in the classrooms (otherwise my students would have no idea what I was taking about). Also, we must follow the one-way system in the school and all meetings must be attended online in a classroom (I could do this from home). Tomorrow is an Inset/Training day.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 27, 2020, 08:45:39 AM
Sure, although the government's guidelines change every 5 minutes.
The Design and Technology Dept have made us all visors and we must wear face coverings ( I have one made by the Textiles dept.) when in the corridors or communal areas but not in the classrooms (otherwise my students would have no idea what I was taking about). Also, we must follow the one-way system in the school and all meetings must be attended online in a classroom (I could do this from home). Tomorrow is an Inset/Training day.
Are there the same number of students in classes (wondering if they're spacing the desks further apart)?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on August 27, 2020, 08:18:20 PM
Are there the same number of students in classes (wondering if they're spacing the desks further apart)?
I don't know yet but I gather that the desks have been spaced out. I've received so many emails from the school containing instructions of one kind or another that I feel fairly spaced out myself!
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on August 28, 2020, 06:06:55 AM
I don't know yet but I gather that the desks have been spaced out. I've received so many emails from the school containing instructions of one kind or another that I feel fairly spaced out myself!

 ;D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 29, 2020, 04:16:08 AM
I don't know yet but I gather that the desks have been spaced out. I've received so many emails from the school containing instructions of one kind or another that I feel fairly spaced out myself!
Oh, noooo!  :(

PD
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on September 02, 2020, 08:44:23 AM
First The Mail and now The Express gets the knives out for Boris. I wonder if the Tory press will swing to Starmer's Labour, which is, after all, quite tory.

https://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/1330470/prime-ministers-questions-PMQs-Boris-Johnson-keir-starmer-exams-brexit


Quote
The soundbites were easy and plentiful. Boris had a “tin ear” for criticism, this was the a “wasted Summer” of “serial incompetence” and the Labour leader even quoted one of Boris's own MP's as saying “it is mess after mess, god knows what's going on.”

Boris could only glare furiously from across the despatch box.

To give you some idea of just how rattled the Prime Minster was his ill-tempered response to Starmer's barbs was not jovial Boris knock-backs but a series of rambling and slightly incoherent accusations that the Labour leader was an EU-backing Remainer (true, but irrelevant) and that he was an IRA sympathiser.

It came across as desperate stuff. Starmer spent five years in Northern Ireland prosecuting high-ranking members of the IRA... a fact he studiously, if slightly over-gleefully, pointed out.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on September 05, 2020, 08:58:17 AM
First The Mail and now The Express gets the knives out for Boris. I wonder if the Tory press will swing to Starmer's Labour, which is, after all, quite tory.

https://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/1330470/prime-ministers-questions-PMQs-Boris-Johnson-keir-starmer-exams-brexit
V interesting the Express article. Thanks for posting it.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on September 15, 2020, 10:36:32 PM
Post deleted because source could not be verified.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on September 20, 2020, 10:52:21 AM
BoJo is having people talk to the tabloids about how he's barely able to afford a nanny on the PM salary.

Not for himself, but for the baby, of course.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on October 03, 2020, 09:22:11 AM
https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2020-10-02/getting-r-number-below-one-key-to-lifting-north-west-restrictions-prime-minister-tells-itv-news

He's deeply unimpressive on this interview. Embarrassing, cringe making, to watch. Aaah, the pain . . . the only thing to do . . . is drink