GMG Classical Music Forum

The Back Room => The Diner => Topic started by: vandermolen on June 15, 2019, 03:21:09 AM

Title: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2019, 03:21:09 AM
Here is a nice uncontroversial one for you.

Johnson rather likes to compare himself with Churchill but I rather liked the observation that 'Churchill had personality and character. Johnson has personality.'

Any views?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on June 15, 2019, 04:48:25 AM
Here is a nice uncontroversial one for you.

Johnson rather likes to compare himself with Churchill but I rather liked the observation that 'Churchill had personality and character. Johnson has personality.'

Any views?
It's also fair to consider Churchill a disaster until 1940 - and then he had his finest hour (lasting for two years) which deserves him all posterior praise. Thus far Boris only succesfully copied the disaster.  :D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 15, 2019, 05:45:43 AM
Churchill needed a nemesis on the scale of Hitler in order to show himself a decent chap, a brave man and a sensible stateman --- all of which he was, no doubts.

Who is Johnson's Hitler, I wonder?  ;D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Todd on June 15, 2019, 06:09:43 AM
Only three posts to get to Hitler.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 15, 2019, 06:53:02 AM
Only three posts to get to Hitler.

 ;D

Hey, don't get me wrong, Boris Johnson would have been no match for Hitler. But can you really divorce Churchill's achievements and fame from his battle with Hitler? What would have Churchill achieved without the latter?

No, honestly, Churchill got itto power with the specific purpose to oppose, and later defeat, Hitler. What's so strange in my naming the later guy?

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Todd on June 15, 2019, 07:01:11 AM
What would have Churchill achieved without the latter?


Churchill was an accomplished man long before the 40s.  For instance, he played a not insignificant role in converting the Royal Navy from coal to oil.  That had rather far reaching geostrategic implications.  He did other stuff, too. 

Also, Boris' Hitler could be Trump.  Amiright?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 15, 2019, 07:05:03 AM
Boris' Hitler could be Trump.  Amiright?

Dead wrong, actually. Trrump is definitely no Hitler, nor is Johnson any Churchill, by any stretch of the imagination.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Todd on June 15, 2019, 07:05:42 AM
Trump is definitely no Hitler


What?!?!
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 15, 2019, 07:20:26 AM

What?!?!

Trump is definitely no Hitler --- not only because 2020 Americans are definitely no 1930 Germans, but also because 2020 Germans are definitely not 1930 Germans.

My assessment: Trump is an idiot who temporarily holds the office of POTUS because he has capitalized upon many legitimate grievances of the American working class, whom the Left picture as the greatest enemy of humanity ever, whose pronouncements can safely be ignored and whose official decrees can be lawfully undone , if so wished, by whomever succeeds him.

Hitler my a$$!
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Todd on June 15, 2019, 07:26:29 AM
<> is an idiot who temporarily holds the office of POTUS


The same can be, and is, said of every president.

You sure don't seem to see the imminent and catastrophic danger that Trump represents.  Shame on you.

But to get back to the topic, surely you see the Right Honourable Boris Johnson as an imminent and catastrophic danger to the UK, Europe, and the world.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 15, 2019, 07:36:12 AM
The same can be, and is, said of every president.

Surely. Not only of USA, but of each and any republic under the sun. Add kingdom or empire too.

Quote
You sure don't seem to see the imminent and catastrophic danger that Trump represents.  Shame on you.

No, I don't. I'm a capitalistic, mysoginistic, white suprematist pig.

Quote
you see the Right Honourable Boris Johnson as an imminent and catastrophic danger to the UK, Europe, and the world.

No, I don't. I see him as one of the many idiots who compete for having the right honourable right to ride a dead horse.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: drogulus on June 15, 2019, 08:10:40 AM
Churchill needed a nemesis on the scale of Hitler in order to show himself a decent chap, a brave man and a sensible stateman --- all of which he was, no doubts.

Who is Johnson's Hitler, I wonder?  ;D

     During the '30s Churchill ran the worlds best intelligence service against Germany from his bathtub.

    I think Trump exhibits a level of multidimensional idiocy that is unprecedented. It's far more then an idiotic policy choice.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 15, 2019, 08:30:10 AM
     During the '30s Churchill ran the worlds best intelligence service against Germany from his bathtub.

If the German intelligence were that idiotic and incompetent as to be defeated from one's bathtub, why did it take so many years for Churchill to defeat them, I wonder?

Quote
    I think Trump exhibits a level of multidimensional idiocy that is unprecedented.

I think not. What is indeed unprecedented is (hostile) media coverage.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: drogulus on June 15, 2019, 08:46:57 AM
If the German intelligence were that idiotic and incompetent as to be defeated from one's bathtub, why did it take so many years for Churchill to defeat them, I wonder?



     Churchill had the most extensive factual information on German rearmament, not German intelligence operations, and his political instincts about NAZI intentions were spot on.

     Churchill defended fortress Britain long enough for Stalin and Roosevelt to defeat Germany.

     
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 15, 2019, 09:27:34 AM
     Churchill had the most extensive factual information on German rearmament, not German intelligence operations, and his political instincts about NAZI intentions were spot on.

     Churchill defended fortress Britain long enough for Stalin and Roosevelt to defeat Germany.

   


IOW, Germans were big time idiots with respect to intelligence.

Sorry, I don't buy this. Try something else.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Todd on June 15, 2019, 09:51:10 AM
No, I don't. I'm a capitalistic, mysoginistic, white suprematist pig.


You forgot privileged, patriarchal, and both a purveyor and victim of toxic masculinity.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: drogulus on June 15, 2019, 10:06:28 AM

IOW, Germans were big time idiots with respect to intelligence.

Sorry, I don't buy this. Try something else.

     I don't understand your point. I made no claim about the effectiveness of German intelligence, only Churchill's ad hoc network of informants who provided valuable information on the true state of German war preparations and the weakness of British defenses.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 15, 2019, 10:09:51 AM
     I don't understand your point.

Neither do I.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: drogulus on June 15, 2019, 10:16:33 AM
Neither do I.

     At last we agree.

“In his memoirs, written so soon after the war, Churchill could not tell the story of the help which Morton and others had given him. Yet without the information provided by Morton, Wigram and Anderson, and by many other officials whose contact with Churchill is described in this volume, each of whom risked his career by telling Churchill what they knew of Britain's defence weaknesses, it would have been very difficult, if not impossible, for him to have kept up his sustained pressure on the Government, to have kept himself so fully informed on a day-to-day basis of the true defence situation in all its aspects, to have aroused public opinion through his detailed and accurate warnings, or to have been so well prepared to take up once more the responsibilities of a member of the War Cabinet at the outbreak of war in September 1939.”
- Martin Gilbert, Churchill biographer


     I read the 2 volume Manchester bio, the second of which, Alone, covers the relevant period.
 
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 15, 2019, 10:17:24 AM
     At last we agree.

 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2019, 10:41:04 AM
It's also fair to consider Churchill a disaster until 1940 - and then he had his finest hour (lasting for two years) which deserves him all posterior praise. Thus far Boris only succesfully copied the disaster.  :D
Very true Johan. He seems to have Churchill's bombast and arrogance without any of his genius.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2019, 10:43:12 AM
;D

Hey, don't get me wrong, Boris Johnson would have been no match for Hitler. But can you really divorce Churchill's achievements and fame from his battle with Hitler? What would have Churchill achieved without the latter?

No, honestly, Churchill got itto power with the specific purpose to oppose, and later defeat, Hitler. What's so strange in my naming the later guy?
I think that you are right about Churchill. Without his defiance of Hitler, Churchill would, I suspect, be seen as something of a political failure. It is true, however, that he was a social reformer in his Liberal days  at the start of the 20th century - something often forgotten.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2019, 10:46:34 AM
     Churchill had the most extensive factual information on German rearmament, not German intelligence operations, and his political instincts about NAZI intentions were spot on.

     Churchill defended fortress Britain long enough for Stalin and Roosevelt to defeat Germany.

   

Good point I think.

Thanks to everyone for contributions.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on June 15, 2019, 10:58:36 AM
Good point I think.

Thanks to everyone for contributions.


You didn't see those coming, did you?  :D

Anyway, since Johnson is able to sell anything to his electorate, some "on the continent" actually hope that he will trick the British in signing off on the withdrawal agreement  (May's deal). 
Why on earth would he do that?  ::) To survive as PM, of course!  :D
He will come up with some bogus story about miraculous changes to the deal,  and the EU will be willing to play along....

It’s either that scenario, or he will drag the UK out of the EU without any deal and all hell will break loose. ..

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on June 15, 2019, 11:01:56 AM
Very true Johan. He seems to have Churchill's bombast and arrogance without any of his genius.

So what? His finest hour came afterward --- bombast and arrogance included.

No, honestly, let's see:

We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our [country], whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender

Substitute Hitler for Churchill --- what would have changed for the troops, the rank and files of the party(es), and the people, pray tell honestly?

On a more general note, what's wrong with Horst-Wessel-Lied?

History is written and taught and enforced by the victors.











Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2019, 09:49:10 PM


You didn't see those coming, did you?  :D

Anyway, since Johnson is able to sell anything to his electorate, some "on the continent" actually hope that he will trick the British in signing off on the withdrawal agreement  (May's deal). 
Why on earth would he do that?  ::) To survive as PM, of course!  :D
He will come up with some bogus story about miraculous changes to the deal,  and the EU will be willing to play along....

It’s either that scenario, or he will drag the UK out of the EU without any deal and all hell will break loose. ..

Q
No I didn't indeed  8)

The odd thing is that I checked the thread yesterday and there were zero responses (not an unusual situation for me ;)) and then there were suddenly loads, mainly from the same people of course but still welcome.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2019, 09:53:53 PM
So what? His finest hour came afterward --- bombast and arrogance included.

No, honestly, let's see:

We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our [country], whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender

Substitute Hitler for Churchill --- what would have changed for the troops, the rank and files of the party(es), and the people, pray tell honestly?


Oh yes, of course Churchill's bombast and arrogance was part of his personality I agree and he needed supreme confidence in his 'destiny' to lead the nation through those 'darkest hours'.

I read the other day that Boris Johnson is the only politician who could reverse Brexit and probably get away with it!
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: amw on June 15, 2019, 11:02:36 PM
Churchill racked up a body count of approximately 3 million through engineering a genocidal famine in Bengal in the 1940s. I'm not sure Boris Johnson is yet in the same league; he's yet to genocide anyone.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 15, 2019, 11:35:26 PM
Churchill racked up a body count of approximately 3 million through engineering a genocidal famine in Bengal in the 1940s. I'm not sure Boris Johnson is yet in the same league; he's yet to genocide anyone.
I think that 'engineering a genocidal famine...' might be overstating it.
Here is an alternative view, featuring Boris Johnson as well!
https://winstonchurchill.hillsdale.edu/did-churchill-cause-the-bengal-famine/
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 23, 2019, 10:24:10 AM
So, is Boris's private life relevant to his capacity to fulfil the role of PM?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on June 23, 2019, 10:41:32 AM
I think we didn't need to know anything about his private life to come to the conclusion that he is a conceited fool...  8)

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 23, 2019, 10:55:54 AM
Love this bit from Outnumbered where a German exchange student thinks Boris is a professional comedian ("He plays the mayor of London, a very stupid politician, he's very stupid and funny") and the family can't convince him otherwise  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/v/bQGVBglqKjY


Sarge
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 23, 2019, 11:05:26 AM
Love this bit from Outnumbered where a German exchange student thinks Boris is a professional comedian ("He plays the mayor of London, a very stupid politician, he's very stupid and funny") and the family can't convince him otherwise  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/v/bQGVBglqKjY


Sarge

And we have a buffoon playing President
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on June 23, 2019, 11:13:58 AM
And we have a buffoon playing President
Buffoon is correct, but playing President - hardly.  :D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 23, 2019, 02:16:51 PM
Love this bit from Outnumbered where a German exchange student thinks Boris is a professional comedian ("He plays the mayor of London, a very stupid politician, he's very stupid and funny") and the family can't convince him otherwise  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/v/bQGVBglqKjY


Sarge

Very funny Sarge!
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on June 25, 2019, 08:44:47 AM
Maybe it's not a good start to compare Johnson to Churchill.

The number of Conservatives all over the world who like to pose as heirs to Churchill is virtually unlimited, and it usually betrays a longing for the late colonial era that is rather painful.

It's odd how Johnson's move to the PM post has become inevitable. A man so buffoonishly incompetent...
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on June 25, 2019, 10:06:38 AM
Maybe it's not a good start to compare Johnson to Churchill.

The number of Conservatives all over the world who like to pose as heirs to Churchill is virtually unlimited, and it usually betrays a longing for the late colonial era that is rather painful.

It's odd how Johnson's move to the PM post has become inevitable. A man so buffoonishly incompetent...

You're right, very worrying.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Marc on June 26, 2019, 11:20:56 AM
You're right, very worrying.

Well, in this, Britain is not alone. (Even when excluding The Donald.)

Apparently many voters are very pleased with all those buffoons presenting lies and alternative facts. I live in a country where this has been happening now for 18 or so years, too. Thanks to the mega multiple political party system here, no buffoon has managed to grab a real huge win (yet?). But one clown managed a victory a few months ago in the Dutch provincial (and Senate) elections. He's blabbering around in a very eloquent way, and amazingly popular.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Daverz on June 26, 2019, 08:14:36 PM
Reading up on the insanity in Oregon might make you guys feel a bit better:

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a28168996/oregon-republican-senators-militia/
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: JBS on July 01, 2019, 03:09:10 PM
Boris is at least a little bit better than Donald
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7199469/Johnson-repeats-criticism-Putin-s-claim-liberalism-obsolete.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ito=1490&ns_campaign=1490
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Roasted Swan on July 04, 2019, 02:45:53 AM
Boris is at least a little bit better than Donald
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7199469/Johnson-repeats-criticism-Putin-s-claim-liberalism-obsolete.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ito=1490&ns_campaign=1490

I think Johnson has the potential to be - for the UK at least - every bit as dangerous as Trump.  He is a more sophisticated political operator but equally egostistical and only concerned with his own advancement.  What amazes me is how little kick back any politician gets for making the most absurd comments or promises.  Both candidates are making statements about spending (after years of nominal austerity) and how they WILL leave the EU on October 31st that have no basis in financial probity or legal/political reality

Personally I don't think private lives should necessarily impact on public roles - but if someone in their private life is shown to have no regard for others through repeated statements or actions it has to impact on the suitability of them taking a wider role - this Max Hastings article about Johnson is deeply disturbing.  Al the more so for Hastings being right wing - no moaning liberal with an agenda he!

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/10/boris-johnson-unfit-to-be-prime-minister

I also do not understand the collective hypocrisy of a Society which in some fields will cast out a 'celebrity' for perceived inappropriate behaviour and for others dismiss it as "just Donald..." or somesuch.  I do not support the predatory behaviour of say a Kevin Spacey but why is his career in tatters and Trump gets elected President......?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 04, 2019, 03:25:33 AM
It does seem absurd that something like 0.6% of the UK population are voting in our next Prime Minister. i just spoke to a Dutch friend on the phone and am inclined to agree with his comment:

'What a bloody stupid country you live in!'

I've always admired The directness of the Dutch.

 8)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: JBS on July 04, 2019, 05:04:18 PM
I think Johnson has the potential to be - for the UK at least - every bit as dangerous as Trump.  He is a more sophisticated political operator but equally egostistical and only concerned with his own advancement.  What amazes me is how little kick back any politician gets for making the most absurd comments or promises.  Both candidates are making statements about spending (after years of nominal austerity) and how they WILL leave the EU on October 31st that have no basis in financial probity or legal/political reality

Personally I don't think private lives should necessarily impact on public roles - but if someone in their private life is shown to have no regard for others through repeated statements or actions it has to impact on the suitability of them taking a wider role - this Max Hastings article about Johnson is deeply disturbing.  Al the more so for Hastings being right wing - no moaning liberal with an agenda he!

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/10/boris-johnson-unfit-to-be-prime-minister

I also do not understand the collective hypocrisy of a Society which in some fields will cast out a 'celebrity' for perceived inappropriate behaviour and for others dismiss it as "just Donald..." or somesuch.  I do not support the predatory behaviour of say a Kevin Spacey but why is his career in tatters and Trump gets elected President......?

 There is actually a significant difference.  Spacey is a classic workplace sexual harrasser, Trump is not.

Spacey forced himself on much younger men (some of them apparently underage) whose job prospects were dependent on being in his good graces. Trump has been accused of molesting/assaulting women, but with the exception of his first wife, none of them were in directly professionally or financially dependent on him. If he has molested women who worked for him,  none of them seem to have complained publicly.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on July 05, 2019, 01:32:00 AM
Per a new election vid, Boris has got a new slogan, to persuade the Tories to vote him in: "Kick the can and we kick the bucket."

Bewildering.

Obviously there's something suicidal in how the Tory Party has been behaving the last couple of years, but to just put it out there is kind of weird...
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 24, 2019, 08:28:01 AM
Don't know what to say really. Thoroughly depressed by today's events. Still I enjoyed the cover of Private Eye with its photo of Boris Johnson outside Downing Street and its caption: 'The Ego has Landed'.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: André on July 24, 2019, 09:23:50 AM
We'll see how long it takes for him to be called BoJo the Clown...
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2019, 09:49:24 AM
We'll see how long it takes for him to be called BoJo the Clown...

About 6 months ago for me... :D  (which is when I saw "BoJo" on Twitter. The rest wrote itself).

8)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Marc on July 24, 2019, 02:20:24 PM
We'll see how long it takes for him to be called BoJo the Clown...

Many sensible people already do that for years. ;)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: André on July 24, 2019, 02:39:52 PM
Many sensible people already do that for years. ;)

Nothing beats popular wisdom  :D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on July 24, 2019, 06:12:36 PM
It does seem absurd that something like 0.6% of the UK population are voting in our next Prime Minister. i just spoke to a Dutch friend on the phone and am inclined to agree with his comment:

'What a bloody stupid country you live in!'

I've always admired The directness of the Dutch.

 8)
I may quote you then, Winston Churchill becoming prime minister proves what a stupid country Britain was.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 24, 2019, 08:55:09 PM
I may quote you then, Winston Churchill becoming prime minister proves what a stupid country Britain was.

I'd be interested to know why you think that.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on July 24, 2019, 09:24:17 PM
Johnson just got rid of half the cabinet, alienating himself of the more moderate Conservatives that supported his rival Jeremy Hunt. And he got important people ft om the Vote Leave campaign, like  Dominic Cummings, into his close circle.

His strategy seems to be:
1. pressure the EU into an adjusted deal;
2. if that fails: force through a no deal;
3. if that is blocked by parliament: a direct appeal to the (Conservative) electorate through general elections, to regain a parliamentary majority.

As a born populist, he might pull this off.... ::)

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 24, 2019, 11:25:20 PM
Johnson just got rid of half the cabinet, alienating himself of the more moderate Conservatives that supported his rival Jeremy Hunt. And he got important people ft om the Vote Leave campaign, like  Dominic Cummings, into his close circle.

His strategy seems to be:
1. pressure the EU into an adjusted deal;
2. if that fails: force through a no deal;
3. if that is blocked by parliament: a direct appeal to the (Conservative) electorate through general elections, to regain a parliamentary majority.

As a born populist, he might pull this off.... ::)

Q
I agree with your analysis.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on July 25, 2019, 04:13:32 AM
I'd be interested to know why you think that.
Same constitutional process wasn’t it? Old PM resigns, new one chosen by tiny fraction of a per cent of the populace.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Herman on July 25, 2019, 05:02:53 AM
Johnson just got rid of half the cabinet, alienating himself of the more moderate Conservatives that supported his rival Jeremy Hunt.

He also gave a family member a cabinet job.

Now how does this sound familiar?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 25, 2019, 05:08:22 AM
Same constitutional process wasn’t it? Old PM resigns, new one chosen by tiny fraction of a per cent of the populace.
Oh, I see what you mean. I don't think that anyone voted for Churchill in 1940. He was just appointed by Chamberlain when Halifax refused to take the job.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on July 25, 2019, 05:16:10 AM
Oh, I see what you mean. I don't think that anyone voted for Churchill in 1940. He was just appointed by Chamberlain when Halifax refused to take the job.
He commanded a majority of the house, just as has every single PM since Walpole, in every parliamentary democracy in the world. Same constitutional process.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 25, 2019, 07:48:20 AM
He commanded a majority of the house, just as has every single PM since Walpole, in every parliamentary democracy in the world. Same constitutional process.
Yes that's true but he wasn't voted in by a General Election until 1951.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on July 26, 2019, 05:33:08 AM
The EU wanted to make the UK suffer during the Brexit negotiations for obvious reasons. If the UK came out smelling of roses then there is a distinct prospect that either or both of Italy and Spain would follow. Their hard line approach has seen off May which until now perhaps the EU views as a victory. But it has opened a can of worms, if you keep on kicking sooner or later the one being kicked will turn and this is where Johnson comes in. I voted remain but like most Brits I have had enough. I want out, deal or no deal.

Frankly I couldn't care less what Johnson gets up to in his private life. It is that, private.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 26, 2019, 06:34:38 AM
The EU wanted to make the UK suffer during the Brexit negotiations for obvious reasons. If the UK came out smelling of roses then there is a distinct prospect that either or both of Italy and Spain would follow. Their hard line approach has seen off May which until now perhaps the EU views as a victory. But it has opened a can of worms, if you keep on kicking sooner or later the one being kicked will turn and this is where Johnson comes in. I voted remain but like most Brits I have had enough. I want out, deal or no deal.

Frankly I couldn't care less what Johnson gets up to in his private life. It is that, private.
I voted remain also but now think that a soft Brexit is probably the best choice. I'd also be happy if Article 50 was revoked.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on July 26, 2019, 09:56:38 AM
The EU wanted to make the UK suffer during the Brexit negotiations for obvious reasons. If the UK came out smelling of roses then there is a distinct prospect that either or both of Italy and Spain would follow. Their hard line approach has seen off May which until now perhaps the EU views as a victory. But it has opened a can of worms, if you keep on kicking sooner or later the one being kicked will turn and this is where Johnson comes in. I voted remain but like most Brits I have had enough. I want out, deal or no deal.

Do you imply that it's EU's exclusive fault for the current lack of any reasonable deal?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on July 26, 2019, 11:53:01 AM
Do you imply that it's EU's exclusive fault for the current lack of any reasonable deal?

Obviously not but there’s something you’re missing. Something very serious is happening in Britain: the people are starting to lose confidence in parliamentary democracy. We are, it feels, being led by donkeys. It needs someone to cut the Gordian knot, quick.

Asking about fault is a bit irrelevant.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 26, 2019, 12:05:42 PM
The comparatively small group of Conservatives who voted for Johnson are mainly white, male and over 50 (a category that I fall into, although I'm not a Conservative). They are unrepresentative of the country as a whole and yet Johnson's rise to power (due to fear of the pop-up Brexit Party) is being represented as 'The Will of the People' - all very deeply depressing. People are indeed losing faith in democracy.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on July 26, 2019, 12:57:47 PM
Obviously not but there’s something you’re missing. Something very serious is happening in Britain: the people are starting to lose confidence in parliamentary democracy. We are, it feels, being led by donkeys. It needs someone to cut the Gordian knot, quick.

Asking about fault is a bit irrelevant.

Yes. I would never have had a referendum were I PM, especially not one where I were unwilling to accept losing. Once that was done though, and then a parliamentary vote as well, you simply must follow through. Otherwise what possible claim to legitimacy is there?

Donkeys seems a fair assessment from over here btw.
Do you know how many people are charged with a crime in England every year for Facebook posts? Around 3000. For facebooking! The Yorkshire police want to charge people for rudeness. Yes, the same cops who covered up Rotherham. (What kind of a country covers up the rape of its children? )The NHS has shortages. And parliament ...  Donkeys looks fair to me.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on July 26, 2019, 02:06:40 PM
The EU wanted to make the UK suffer during the Brexit negotiations for obvious reasons. If the UK came out smelling of roses then there is a distinct prospect that either or both of Italy and Spain would follow. Their hard line approach has seen off May which until now perhaps the EU views as a victory. But it has opened a can of worms, if you keep on kicking sooner or later the one being kicked will turn and this is where Johnson comes in. I voted remain but like most Brits I have had enough. I want out, deal or no deal.

So the EU has punished the UK, which is now the victim....

I think we should keep in mind that over several decades of EU membership it is the UK which has used every opportunity to play hardball and push through its economic and geopolitical objectives within the EU, and also obtain significant special privileges. It is true that when the UK decided to leave the EU, it lost its leverage to force any special treatment. Now it is Ireland's interests that take priority over that of a future outsider.

But let's also keep in mind that a hard Brexit will cost the EU €40 billion per year and will lead to a weakened position of Europe in the world. Close future economic and political cooperation with the UK is actually very much in the interest of the EU. But handing out special favours or damaging vital interests of a member state is not....

Welcome to the reality of international relations... Countries and alliances of countries look after their own interests first and foremost. Isn't it also the main reason for the UK to leave the EU?

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on July 26, 2019, 11:03:43 PM
Do you imply that it's EU's exclusive fault for the current lack of any reasonable deal?

Not by a long chalk. They just haven't helped. 
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on July 26, 2019, 11:11:26 PM
Obviously not but there’s something you’re missing. Something very serious is happening in Britain: the people are starting to lose confidence in parliamentary democracy. We are, it feels, being led by donkeys. It needs someone to cut the Gordian knot, quick.

Asking about fault is a bit irrelevant.

Fair point, "donkey" is a bit strong. You are right about losing confidence in democracy as Parliament has not delivered what the nation voted for namely Brexit.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on July 26, 2019, 11:28:42 PM
Boris Johnson knows that if he succeeds in a general election to win back the votes that were lost to Farage, charm or scare a sufficient number of moderate Conservative voters and attract leavers from a severely weakened and divided Labour, the British electoral system will hand him a parliamentary majority on a silver platter.

You have to hand it to him: that is a clever strategy, very clever....  ::)

But without a weakened Labour it wouldn't be possible.
And the prospect of a Labour government under Corbyn will scare a large number of moderate Conservatives to stick with Johnson despite Brexit. Once more Jeremy Corbyn's role will be that of Brexit enabler.
None of the promised sunlit Socialist' Utopia will come true. He actually prepared the country for a hardcore right wing nationalistic government.

Johnson should send him a flowers and a thank you note....

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 27, 2019, 01:22:53 AM
Boris Johnson knows that if he succeeds in a general election to win back the votes that were lost to Farage, charm or scare a sufficient number of moderate Conservative voters and attract leavers from a severely weakened and divided Labour, the British electoral system will hand him a parliamentary majority on a silver platter.

You have to hand it to him: that is a clever strategy, very clever....  ::)

But without a weakened Labour it wouldn't be possible.
And the prospect of a Labour government under Corbyn will scare a large number of moderate Conservatives to stick with Johnson despite Brexit. Once more Jeremy Corbyn's role will be that of Brexit enabler.
None of the promised sunlit Socialist' Utopia will come true. He actually prepared the country for a hardcore right wing nationalistic government.

Johnson should send him a flowers and a thank you note....

Q
Yes, I largely agree. I wish that Sir Keir Starmer was the the Leader of the Labour Party and not Corbyn.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on July 27, 2019, 05:07:49 AM
Boris Johnson knows that if he succeeds in a general election to win back the votes that were lost to Farage, charm or scare a sufficient number of moderate Conservative voters and attract leavers from a severely weakened and divided Labour, the British electoral system will hand him a parliamentary majority on a silver platter.

You have to hand it to him: that is a clever strategy, very clever....  ::)

But without a weakened Labour it wouldn't be possible.
And the prospect of a Labour government under Corbyn will scare a large number of moderate Conservatives to stick with Johnson despite Brexit. Once more Jeremy Corbyn's role will be that of Brexit enabler.
None of the promised sunlit Socialist' Utopia will come true. He actually prepared the country for a hardcore right wing nationalistic government.

Johnson should send him a flowers and a thank you note....

Q

A spot on analysis. The power behind the throne is a scruffy individual by the name of Dominic Cummings who is pulling Johnson's strings. Cummings is the man with a plan.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on July 27, 2019, 06:01:38 AM
Indeed, the masterplan is probably Cummings'.  :)

One further thought....

Once Johnson has his majority in Parliament, he could throw the DUP under the bus and agree to a backstop limited to Northern Ireland - as the EU originally intended.
Then all will be clear to sign off on the withdrawal agreement and start negotiations on a Canada-style free trade agreement.

Problem solved and the Vote Leave agenda fully implemented....  8)

The funny thing is that, apart from the DUP, the Northern Irish will be quite fine will that solution. In a seperate customs territory that is aligned with the rest of Ireland and the EU, they will have the best of both worlds.
Will this lead to a closer pull towards the Irish Republic? Probably... But only the DUP would really mind.

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 27, 2019, 06:58:21 AM
Indeed, the masterplan is probably Cummings'.  :)

One further thought....

Once Johnson has his majority in Parliament, he could throw the DUP under the bus and agree to a backstop limited to Northern Ireland - as the EU originally intended.
Then all will be clear to sign off on the withdrawal agreement and start negotiations on a Canada-style free trade agreement.

Problem solved and the Vote Leave agenda fully implemented....  8)

The funny thing is that, apart from the DUP, the Northern Irish will be quite fine will that solution. In a seperate customs territory that is aligned with the rest of Ireland and the EU, they will have the best of both worlds.
Will this lead to a closer pull towards the Irish Republic? Probably... But only the DUP would really mind.

Q

Yes, if they gave the North to the South there would be no problem.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on July 27, 2019, 07:46:51 AM
Yes, if they gave the North to the South there would be no problem.

Is that how you see it?  By keeping NI in a customs union and partial regulatory alignment with the EU, it will be "handed over"?

I would disagree. A seperate economic status within the UK isn't the same as becoming part of the Irish Republic.
And personally I think the EU and UK should agree to leave such a decision to the Northern Irish, whatever they decide.

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 27, 2019, 10:13:18 AM
Is that how you see it?  By keeping NI in a customs union and partial regulatory alignment with the EU, it will be "handed over"?

I would disagree. A seperate economic status within the UK isn't the same as becoming part of the Irish Republic.
And personally I think the EU and UK should agree to leave such a decision to the Northern Irish, whatever they decide.

Q

Sorry, I was being a bit flippant. I don't think that will actually happen but I can see that our current impasse may fuel the argument for a united Ireland as it will for an independent Scotland.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on July 27, 2019, 10:46:28 AM
Sorry, I was being a bit flippant. I don't think that will actually happen but I can see that our currant impasse may fuel the argument for a united Ireland as it will for an independent Scotland.

I understand, and agree. :)

It's a pity that many do not understand that the severing of close political and economic ties between nations by Brexit, will be a significant destabilising factor for the UK as a country,  for Europe and ultimately for the balance of power in the world.

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on July 27, 2019, 12:10:21 PM
And thus the elections game has begun....

'Boris bounce’ lifts Tories at expense of Brexit party, poll shows (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/27/boris-bounce-lifts-tories-at-expense-of-brexit-party-poll-shows)

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 27, 2019, 10:32:29 PM
I understand, and agree. :)

It's a pity that many do not understand that the severing of close political and economic ties between nations by Brexit, will be a significant destabilising factor for the UK as a country,  for Europe and ultimately for the balance of power in the world.

Q

Totally agree.

It's awful watching the lemming-like rush to the cliff edge. The only thing that gives me any hope is the election of the new Liberal leader who speaks a lot of sense I think.

On a separate note I've now corrected the spelling of 'current' in my original post just in case anyone thought I was referring to a small dried fruit. ::)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on July 28, 2019, 04:24:05 AM
Totally agree.

It's awful watching the lemming-like rush to the cliff edge. The only thing that gives me any hope is the election of the new Liberal leader who speaks a lot of sense I think.

On a separate note I've now corrected the spelling of 'current' in my original post just in case anyone thought I was referring to a small dried fruit. ::)

I know nothing of the new Liberal leader but she came out with a great line - "Johnson is like a Trump who has been to Eton".

On a more serious note. If there is a General Election, which I think is inevitable, we all know where the Tories will stand. But what about Labour? I have not a clue but more worryingly I don't think they have either! Stay in, stay out or shake it all about.  :-\
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on July 28, 2019, 05:13:00 AM
Obviously not but there’s something you’re missing. Something very serious is happening in Britain: the people are starting to lose confidence in parliamentary democracy.

Can't blame them, can you?

Yes. I would never have had a referendum were I PM, especially not one where I were unwilling to accept losing.

Cameron's referendum is possibly the greatest blunder in UK's political history.

I think we should keep in mind that over several decades of EU membership it is the UK which has used every opportunity to play hardball and push through its economic and geopolitical objectives within the EU, and also obtain significant special privileges.

This.

Quote
Countries and alliances of countries look after their own interests first and foremost.

And this, too.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 28, 2019, 08:46:19 AM
I know nothing of the new Liberal leader but she came out with a great line - "Johnson is like a Trump who has been to Eton".

On a more serious note. If there is a General Election, which I think is inevitable, we all know where the Tories will stand. But what about Labour? I have not a clue but more worryingly I don't think they have either! Stay in, stay out or shake it all about.  :-\
The failure of Labour to offer effective opposition is very demoralising in our current political climate and I agree with Florestan's point about the disastrous decision to hold that predictably divisive Referendum.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on July 28, 2019, 09:24:17 AM
Newsflash: Jeremy Corbyn supports a general election and "he is ready"....

Ready for what? His ass being kicked? ::)

Boris will be delighted!

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christabel on July 29, 2019, 12:47:13 AM
Boris is shambolic, Corbyn is a communist terrorism sympathiser and anti-semitic hater.  What could possibly go wrong?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on July 29, 2019, 05:44:56 AM
The failure of Labour to offer effective opposition is very demoralising in our current political climate and I agree with Florestan's point about the disastrous decision to hold that predictably divisive Referendum.

Cameron called the Referendum playing clever politics as he saw Ukip as a threat electorally. He didn't think for one moment the result would not be remain as after the Scottish Referendum and Proportional Representation victories he was brimming with confidence. After causing chaos with a disastrous political move which could effect the financial stability of not only the UK, but the EU and even the world, he rides off in the sunset - what an idiot!   
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on July 29, 2019, 05:54:25 AM
Cameron called the Referendum playing clever politics as he saw Ukip as a threat electorally. He didn't think for one moment the result would not be remain as after the Scottish Referendum and Proportional Representation victories he was brimming with confidence. After causing chaos with a disastrous political move which could effect the financial stability of not only the UK, but the EU and even the world, he rides off in the sunset - what an idiot!   

Spot on! The greatest idiot in UK's political history.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: The new erato on July 29, 2019, 07:00:35 AM
Prepare to be an serfdom under the US and EU. So sad when the UK still could have been a significant force if it had pooled its resources with the EU.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: BasilValentine on July 29, 2019, 07:45:54 AM

John Oliver on Boris Johnson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXyO_MC9g3k
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on July 29, 2019, 10:24:30 AM
Prepare to be an serfdom under the US and EU.

No offense meant, but where would Norway be without US (read NATO) and EU? --- in other words, is not Norway today, right now, for all intents and purposes " a serfdom" under the US and EU?  ;D Please answer in all earnest (ie, supposing Norway is out of both NATO and EU agreements).
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: The new erato on July 29, 2019, 11:29:42 AM
Oh yes, but as a small and marginal country we have never been otherwise, or had aspirations of that order. International trade and cooperation have been the order of the Day. For the UK on the other hand, it will be a downfall and a spilt opportunity to still be an important International influence through aligning more closely with the rest of Europe.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on July 29, 2019, 11:38:26 AM
Oh yes, but as a small and marginal country we have never been otherwise, or had aspirations of that order. International trade and cooperation have been the order of the Day.

Thanks. Romania fits in to a tee --- and I'm only glad that it does. Better to be a serfdom under US and EU than under Russia.

Quote
For the UK on the other hand, it will be a downfall and a spilt opportunity to still be an important International influence through aligning more closely with the rest of Europe.

The UK did it all with its own hand --- if you know what I mean...  ;D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: The new erato on July 29, 2019, 11:53:12 AM
I do.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on July 29, 2019, 11:53:56 AM
I do.

 8)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 30, 2019, 01:59:03 AM
Prepare to be an serfdom under the US and EU. So sad when the UK still could have been a significant force if it had pooled its resources with the EU.

Agree with you 100%. Even Churchill said 'I look forward to a United States of Europe'. We will have much less say in world affairs outside the EU. Cameron, Johnson and Gove are to blame for this mess. And it is a big mess.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on July 30, 2019, 02:02:27 AM
Cameron called the Referendum playing clever politics as he saw Ukip as a threat electorally. He didn't think for one moment the result would not be remain as after the Scottish Referendum and Proportional Representation victories he was brimming with confidence. After causing chaos with a disastrous political move which could effect the financial stability of not only the UK, but the EU and even the world, he rides off in the sunset - what an idiot!   

Yes, I agree. As you may recall Cameron said 'I'm not a quitter' shortly before disappearing to earn huge amounts of money from after-dinner speeches and writing his, no doubt self-justifying, book.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on August 12, 2019, 09:25:11 PM
Agree with you 100%. Even Churchill said 'I look forward to a United States of Europe'. We will have much less say in world affairs outside the EU. Cameron, Johnson and Gove are to blame for this mess. And it is a big mess.

Churchill famously used the term 'United States of Europe' in his speech at Zürich, 1946:

'We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living. The process is simple. All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing.'
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on August 12, 2019, 10:55:07 PM
Churchill famously used the term 'United States of Europe' in his speech at Zürich, 1946:

'We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living. The process is simple. All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing.'

I found this article about that speech interesting:
https://www.ft.com/content/3d6bbabc-7122-11e6-a0c9-1365ce54b926
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on August 25, 2019, 03:47:51 AM
Just in case our UK members were wondering if they were in a safe hands - the loud orange guy from across the pond says so:

Trump says Boris Johnson is 'right man' to deliver Brexit (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/25/trump-says-boris-johnson-is-right-man-to-deliver-brexit)

Putin endorses Trump, who endorses Johnson....
And both Putin and Trump encourage Brexit...

Am I the only one who sees a disturbing pattern here?  ???

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on August 25, 2019, 09:43:20 AM
Poetin

Do you mean something like this?  :P

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1032/5675/products/The_Literary_Tea_Company_-_Edgar_Allan_Poe_Tall_Round_Tin_2000x.png?v=1556634514)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on August 25, 2019, 10:36:33 AM
Do you mean something like this?  :P

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1032/5675/products/The_Literary_Tea_Company_-_Edgar_Allan_Poe_Tall_Round_Tin_2000x.png?v=1556634514)

Sorry, Dutch spelling/transliteration...  :D  Corrected to the ways of Queen's English.

Anyway, the whole situation is definitely as dark and sinister as Poe's most gripping stories.

There are concerted efforts by the presidents of the United States of America and of Russia to throw Europe to the lions.
Trump considers Euope a burden that must be offloaded, Putin wants to regain the former Russian sphere of influence.
The UK is mistakenly - misguided by historical ties - seeking refuge in a closer alliance with the US and severing its links with the rest of Europe. Trump will pick its bones clean and reduce it to a sattelite state.....

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on August 25, 2019, 10:43:46 AM
Sorry, Dutch spelling/transliteration...  :D

I know, I just couldn't resist.   :)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: JBS on August 26, 2019, 11:13:07 AM
Sorry, Dutch spelling/transliteration...  :D  Corrected to the ways of Queen's English.

Anyway, the whole situation is definitely as dark and sinister as Poe's most gripping stories.

There are concerted efforts by the presidents of the United States of America and of Russia to throw Europe to the lions.
Trump considers Euope a burden that must be offloaded, Putin wants to regain the former Russian sphere of influence.
The UK is mistakenly - misguided by historical ties - seeking refuge in a closer alliance with the US and severing its links with the rest of Europe. Trump will pick its bones clean and reduce it to a sattelite state.....

Q

I think you are giving Trump too much credit. He doesn't think that far ahead. He likes the idea of a similar nationalist minded government in the UK.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: DaveF on August 28, 2019, 10:57:40 AM
Too appalled by today's events to comment coherently.  But I have torn the dedication page from the score of the symphony I composed in his honour and trampled it underfoot.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on August 28, 2019, 11:21:46 AM
Too appalled by today's events to comment coherently.  But I have torn the dedication page from the score of the symphony I composed in his honour and trampled it underfoot.

Good for you!
 :)

I also feel too angry to discuss it coherently.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: SimonNZ on September 06, 2019, 04:04:42 PM
Bumbling Boris's speech at police academy was classic Dom (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/05/bumbling-boriss-speech-at-police-academy-was-classic-dom)

"Boris Johnson’s speech at a police academy in Wakefield was the shitshow to end all shitshows. It made his dystopian performances at the dispatch box over the previous two days look like models of sanity and coherence. Even May’s P45, loss of voice and collapsing scenery at the Tory party conference weren’t as excruciating to watch as this. The Clown Prince completely out of his head. Acid? Heroin? Cocaine? Or a cocktail of all three? If the UK is to be a failed state, it has found its ideal leader. Classic Dom.

When half the country is shouting, “Stop the coup!” in protest at the prime minister shutting down parliament, choosing to launch your election campaign surrounded by police recruits at a training academy is not the best of looks. Either for the government or the police. But this was Boris. A man for whom other people are mere satellites orbiting his sun. Rushing on his run. He felt just like Jesus’s son. And he guessed that he just didn’t know. Classic Dom.

What followed was a full-on breakdown. Both physical and mental. The narcissistic wound exposed as an infected open sore. Most leaders at least turn up with a speech they have prepared. However deathless the prose. Johnson prefers to wing it. The arrogant stream of pure unconsciousness. The bumbling worked for £25K after-dinner speeches when everyone was a bit pissed. It would work here. Classic Dom.

He was pleased to be wherever it was he had come to. Ah yes, he thought, for the first time noticing the grim faces of the policemen and women whom he’d kept standing around waiting for more than an hour. Police. We needed more of them. Especially if he was going to waste their time like this. Classic Dom.

“I used to be …” His voice tailed off. Boris couldn’t quite remember what it was he used to be. Prime minister? Surely not. That would be ridiculous. Then he had the most excruciating flashback. A wild hallucination of an incriminating laptop and wine stains on the carpet. The last time he had been surrounded by so many police. Classic Dom.

Johnson started rambling, desperately trying to navigate a way back to the present. A caution. That’s what the police had done when he had been collared. “Um … er …” he began. How did it go again? “You do not have to say anything … um … you know how it goes, don’t you?” he continued, turning round to ask the police lined up behind him. They looked blankly ahead, avoiding his gaze. Who was this man? “If you fail to mention … shomefing on swhich shoo later rely.” By now he was slurring every other word. Classic Dom.

There was this plan. He didn’t want an election. Oh no! And when didn’t he want an election? 15 October. That was why he was making an election speech for an election he didn’t want. He didn’t want the election so much he was going to try a second time to fool the Labour party into giving him the election he didn’t want. Thank you and goodnight. His eyes closed briefly as he appeared to pass out. Classic Dom.

A few seconds later, he came to. What happened next? That was it. Questions. There were some people to ask him questions. Hello, Wakefield! Almost all the questions predictably focused on the resignation of his brother earlier that day. If he couldn’t even keep Jo in the party – let alone the other 21 other moderates he’d also slung out – what chance did he have of gaining the trust of the entire country? His mouth opened and closed, wordlessly. Classic Dom.

Finally he managed something approaching a sentence. “My brother has been a fantastic …” What was the job he had given his backstabbing, dumbass brother again? His mind had gone blank. Say something, Boris, he told himself. Something. Anything. Have a guess. “Science minister.” Shit. He knew he’d got it wrong. Jo was the sodding universities minister. Anyway, who cared? Jo was dead to him. Since when did a Johnson ever have a fit of conscience? It would tarnish the brand. Classic Dom.

Johnson continued ad-libbing. He’d die in a ditch if Britain wasn’t out of the EU by 31 October. Probably preferable to dying on his feet, as he was now. Just then, he heard a noise behind him and turned round. A policewoman had collapsed. He shrugged, took a sip of water, and carried on talking. She needed to toughen up a bit. Post-Brexit Britain was no place for the weak. Besides, his need was so clearly greater than hers. He was the World King. And if she died, he could always just recruit 20,001 new recruits. Classic Dom.

Slowly, the drugs began to wear off, and Johnson stumbled back indoors. “You nailed it,” said Dom and Dommer encouragingly. “You were so bad, you were brilliant. We’ve got them exactly where we want them.” Classic, classic Dom."
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on September 07, 2019, 12:12:51 AM
So, Boris Johnson has been convincingly defeated in his attempt to force a no-deal Brexit by a united front of opposition and Tory rebels.

But this game isn't over yet...

No chance in hell that Johnson is going to Brussels to ask for an extension. He will resign and the Queen will turn to Corbyn to form a government, which will immediately expose the divisions amongst Boris' opponents.

Now suppose some provisional caretaker government will have secured an extension on Brexit, elections will follow...

Johnson is going to reap all angry pro-Brexit voters that have been duped once again, possibly in a alliance with the Brexit Party. The Conservatives will be wiped out in Scotland and pro-European Tory moderates will switch to the Liberal Democrats.

Corbyn will fight the elections on a disastrous, fudged "Labour Brexit" ticket, and will be slaughtered since no Brexiter or Remainer will vote for that.

Johnson might actually win these elections by an (English) landslide and end up with a comfortable majority in Parliament, purged of any rebels.

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: "Harry" on September 07, 2019, 01:35:01 AM
So, Boris Johnson has been convincingly defeated in his attempt to force a no-deal Brexit by a united front of opposition and Tory rebels.

But this game isn't over yet...

No chance in hell that Johnson is going to Brussels to ask for an extension. He will resign and the Queen will turn to Corbyn to form a government, which will immediately expose the divisions amongst Boris' opponents.

Now suppose some provisional caretaker government will have secured an extension on Brexit, elections will follow...

Johnson is going to reap all angry pro-Brexit voters that have been duped once again, possibly in a alliance with the Brexit Party. The Conservatives will be wiped out in Scotland and pro-European Tory moderates will switch to the Liberal Democrats.

Corbyn will fight the elections on a disastrous, fudged "Labour Brexit" ticket, and will be slaughtered since no Brexiter or Remainer will vote for that.

Johnson might actually win these elections by an (English) landslide and end up with a comfortable majority in Parliament, purged of any rebels.

Q

Well yes that might be an option, but there are other possibilities. Do not forget that politics in its workings is alike to Mafia structures, and they have a lot of things up their sleeves. A rabbit could come out any moment. :)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on September 07, 2019, 01:44:07 AM
Well yes that might be an option, but there are other possibilities. Do not forget that politics in its workings is alike to Mafia structures, and they have a lot of things up their sleeves. A rabbit could come out any moment. :)

It's all very unpredictable due to the British "winner takes it all" electoral system.

If Johnson doesn't win, a hung parliament seems the most likely other option.

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on September 08, 2019, 12:31:09 AM
Bumbling Boris's speech at police academy was classic Dom (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/05/bumbling-boriss-speech-at-police-academy-was-classic-dom)

"Boris Johnson’s speech at a police academy in Wakefield was the shitshow to end all shitshows. It made his dystopian performances at the dispatch box over the previous two days look like models of sanity and coherence. Even May’s P45, loss of voice and collapsing scenery at the Tory party conference weren’t as excruciating to watch as this. The Clown Prince completely out of his head. Acid? Heroin? Cocaine? Or a cocktail of all three? If the UK is to be a failed state, it has found its ideal leader. Classic Dom.

When half the country is shouting, “Stop the coup!” in protest at the prime minister shutting down parliament, choosing to launch your election campaign surrounded by police recruits at a training academy is not the best of looks. Either for the government or the police. But this was Boris. A man for whom other people are mere satellites orbiting his sun. Rushing on his run. He felt just like Jesus’s son. And he guessed that he just didn’t know. Classic Dom.

What followed was a full-on breakdown. Both physical and mental. The narcissistic wound exposed as an infected open sore. Most leaders at least turn up with a speech they have prepared. However deathless the prose. Johnson prefers to wing it. The arrogant stream of pure unconsciousness. The bumbling worked for £25K after-dinner speeches when everyone was a bit pissed. It would work here. Classic Dom.

He was pleased to be wherever it was he had come to. Ah yes, he thought, for the first time noticing the grim faces of the policemen and women whom he’d kept standing around waiting for more than an hour. Police. We needed more of them. Especially if he was going to waste their time like this. Classic Dom.

“I used to be …” His voice tailed off. Boris couldn’t quite remember what it was he used to be. Prime minister? Surely not. That would be ridiculous. Then he had the most excruciating flashback. A wild hallucination of an incriminating laptop and wine stains on the carpet. The last time he had been surrounded by so many police. Classic Dom.

Johnson started rambling, desperately trying to navigate a way back to the present. A caution. That’s what the police had done when he had been collared. “Um … er …” he began. How did it go again? “You do not have to say anything … um … you know how it goes, don’t you?” he continued, turning round to ask the police lined up behind him. They looked blankly ahead, avoiding his gaze. Who was this man? “If you fail to mention … shomefing on swhich shoo later rely.” By now he was slurring every other word. Classic Dom.

There was this plan. He didn’t want an election. Oh no! And when didn’t he want an election? 15 October. That was why he was making an election speech for an election he didn’t want. He didn’t want the election so much he was going to try a second time to fool the Labour party into giving him the election he didn’t want. Thank you and goodnight. His eyes closed briefly as he appeared to pass out. Classic Dom.

A few seconds later, he came to. What happened next? That was it. Questions. There were some people to ask him questions. Hello, Wakefield! Almost all the questions predictably focused on the resignation of his brother earlier that day. If he couldn’t even keep Jo in the party – let alone the other 21 other moderates he’d also slung out – what chance did he have of gaining the trust of the entire country? His mouth opened and closed, wordlessly. Classic Dom.

Finally he managed something approaching a sentence. “My brother has been a fantastic …” What was the job he had given his backstabbing, dumbass brother again? His mind had gone blank. Say something, Boris, he told himself. Something. Anything. Have a guess. “Science minister.” Shit. He knew he’d got it wrong. Jo was the sodding universities minister. Anyway, who cared? Jo was dead to him. Since when did a Johnson ever have a fit of conscience? It would tarnish the brand. Classic Dom.

Johnson continued ad-libbing. He’d die in a ditch if Britain wasn’t out of the EU by 31 October. Probably preferable to dying on his feet, as he was now. Just then, he heard a noise behind him and turned round. A policewoman had collapsed. He shrugged, took a sip of water, and carried on talking. She needed to toughen up a bit. Post-Brexit Britain was no place for the weak. Besides, his need was so clearly greater than hers. He was the World King. And if she died, he could always just recruit 20,001 new recruits. Classic Dom.

Slowly, the drugs began to wear off, and Johnson stumbled back indoors. “You nailed it,” said Dom and Dommer encouragingly. “You were so bad, you were brilliant. We’ve got them exactly where we want them.” Classic, classic Dom."
Yes, I agree. It was excruciating to watch. Even the BBC reporter Vicki Young wondered whether he had dropped his speech on his way to the podium. The Gestapo look with the police lined up behind him spectacularly misfired.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Muzio on September 08, 2019, 11:20:20 AM
Did Boris Johnson Just Rope-a-Dope His Way into a Hard Brexit?
By Mark Hanna

As of Friday, September 6, an extension of three months to prevent the U.K. leaving the E.U. without a deal passed the Houses of Commons and Lords.  In order for that legislation to become law, there must be consent by the monarch — in this case, Queen Elizabeth II.  Once she assents, the bill becomes law.

While most everyone is considering her assent a formality on Monday, it should not quite yet be considered a fait accompli.  The queen can lawfully refuse assent or delay her approval, which would effectively veto the bill and keep it from becoming law, thereby paving the way to a No Deal Brexit on October 31.

There are two occasions when the monarch can and should, according to most academic experts in the matter, refuse assent.

According to Anne Twomey, professor of constitutional law at the the University of Sydney in her book The Veiled Sceptre, the first occasion is that where a "serious error is discovered in the bill."  No one is arguing that there is an error in the Remainers' meticulously crafted bill of extension.

But the second occasion in relation to royal assent, "the predominant academic view ... is that the Sovereign ... must act upon the advice of responsible ministers."

Professor of public law at the University of Glasgow School of Law Adam Tomkins concurs.  From his book Public Law: "If the monarch were given clear and firm Prime Ministerial advice that she should withhold her royal assent to a Bill which had passed through the Houses of Parliament, it seems to be the case that the monarch should follow that advice."

As Robert Craig noted, Twomey uses the example of where a new government that has the confidence of the House and "objects to a bill passed ... by a defeated predecessor ... then its advice to refuse assent to a bill should be accepted."

While this is not the exact set of circumstances the U.K. is facing, Boris Johnson has demonstrated he has the confidence of the House, triumphantly pointing out that "this is the first time in history that the opposition has voted to show confidence in Her Majesty's government" by refusing to allow an election and refusing to table a vote of no confidence.  Now all that's left is for Johnson to give clear and firm advice to the queen, who should then refuse to assent to the opposition's legislation to stop a No Deal Brexit.

If this is indeed BoJo's strategy, the U.K. Parliament has cut off its nose to spite its face.  Hyper-leftist and self-avowed Marxist Jeremy Corbyn, opposition leader of the Labor Party, has gleefully led this self-mutilation, stating, "When No Deal is off the table, once and for all, we should go back to the people in a public vote or a General Election to decide our country's future."

Using the limited time the U.K. Parliament had to address the possibility of a No Deal Brexit, Corbyn, the other opposition parties, and 21 Tories clearly decided to spend their few days left in Parliament obsessed with passing a law that demands that BoJo, against his own will and government, ask the E.U. for an extension of Article 50 until January 31, 2020.

But Johnson may have been way ahead of them.  He launched the epic play by proroguing parliament, which is basically closing the current Parliament session, until mid-October with the queen's approval.  This means that all Parliament business must be concluded by Monday (or at latest Thursday).  Once proroguing had occurred, the Remainers went into a Boris-induced tizzy to make sure a law was passed to stop him from taking the U.K. out of the E.U. without a deal on October 31, as long as no deal had been reached with the E.U. by October 19.

This is precisely where the PM has likely wanted them all along.  Employing a "rope a dope" strategy, Johnson has effectively forced Parliament to use all the time left, now that the proroguing has occurred and been declared legal by the U.K. courts, to mire itself in passing the Article 50 extension law.  Like the boxer Muhammad Ali, who made rope-a-dope famous, BoJo leaned back into parliament's ropes and took hit after hit, causing the opponents to not only wear themselves out, but provide time for him to get ready for his final counter-punch.

If the above analysis is correct, Johnson's knockout blow is happening now, as he meets the queen this weekend in order to clearly and firmly advise the queen to withhold assent.

Beautifully orchestrating and executing his stratagem, BoJo will have outwitted his opponents again in this well thought out fight plan by 1) forcing the opposition to spend the very short time they had to stop a No Deal Brexit mired in creating the extension legislation, then 2) sifting out the twenty-one traitors within his own Tory Party who voted against him, while at the same time 3) casually scheduling a meeting with the queen this weekend in order that 4) he can quietly advise the Queen not to assent to the bill he has called the "surrender" bill.

His opponents were so busy patting themselves on the back for their seemingly witty and unstoppable legislative efforts to thwart the will of the U.K.'s people (who voted 52% to 48% to leave the E.U. in 2016), heaping insults, lies, and half-truths on the prime minister and arguing among themselves how to take power, that they failed to see that Boris was, like any great boxer, simply setting them up.

His arguments to the queen are strong.  First, a group of disingenuous Tory traitors betrayed the government by voting with the non-government opposition.  The U.K. system is a parliamentary government, not a system of parliamentary rule.  The queen can reinforce this distinction by refusing assent upon receiving the P.M.'s advice, proving that the government elected by the people ultimately has the power.

Second, extensions have been passed before under Theresa May, but to no avail in bringing the U.K. to a better deal with the E.U.  What good would another extension to January 31, 2020 bring?  Even France's President Macron agrees here and has indicated he'll veto an extension anyway.  Germany's Chancellor Angela Merkel is also under pressure to veto any request for an extension.  Any one of the 27 E.U. member-leaders can veto an extension, thereby virtually assuring a No Deal Brexit on October 31.

Finally, the current House of Commons has tacitly given its vote of confidence to Boris Johnson as prime minister by not agreeing to an election and not tabling a motion of no confidence.  The Commons chose instead to focus on creating legislation that is opposed by the government, thereby giving Johnson an effective argument that the government was defied, not rejected.

And so we'll know in the next few days if this was the plan all along.  For if the prime minister is truly committed to his promise to bring the U.K. out of the E.U. on October 31, he'll advise the queen to refuse the bill.  In accordance with the unwritten constitution of the U.K., the queen will agree with her prime minister's advice.

If the queen agrees, Boris Johnson will have turned the Remainers' nightmarish Halloween Day extension ploy into a historic Reformation Day, indeed.

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/09/did_boris_johnson_just_ropeadope_his_way_into_a_hard_brexit.html#ixzz5yxxQhx6V

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: JBS on September 08, 2019, 11:31:00 AM
The American Thinker devotes itself to promoting Trumpian propaganda. So it is no surprise its coverage of Brexit is similarly detached from reality.

The simple answer is that in passing the legislation, Parliament demonstrated it has no confidence in the current government, and that by the rules of the UK constitution Johnson should have resigned.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: SimonNZ on September 08, 2019, 01:25:42 PM
I'm going to be using "BoJo The Clown" from now on.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Muzio on September 10, 2019, 12:11:20 PM
Report: PM Boris Johnson Has Simple Plan to Legally Stop Brexit Extension….
September 8, 2019

If this simple procedure is true, wow… It would mean all of last week’s parliamentary teeth gnashing by the usurping Never-Brexit MP’s was essentially irrelevant.

According to a Reuters report, Prime Minister Boris Johnson simply needs to attach a letter to the Brexit delay legislation saying the U.K. government officially does not request any extension beyond October 31st.  Then ignore it.  That was easy.

(Reuters) – British Prime Minister Boris Johnson has prepared plans to legally stop any Brexit extension, the Daily Telegraph bit.ly/2ZP87Yc reported late on Sunday.

Johnson’s advisers held a meeting on Sunday to counter the strategy to prevent the British parliament’s attempts at enforcing a three-month Brexit extension if no new deal is agreed, the newspaper reported.

A plan under consideration would see Johnson sending a letter alongside the request to extend Article 50 setting out that the government does not want any delay after Oct. 31, according to the report.  The prior remarks by President Trump (last week) now take on a new context:

Q Have you been following the situation in London with Boris Johnson and the Brexit vote?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, Boris is a friend of mine. And he’s — he’s going at it. There’s no question about it. He’s in there — I watched him this morning. He’s in there fighting.  And he knows how to win. Boris knows how to win. Don’t worry about him. He’s going to be okay.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-parliament-johnson-idUSKCN1VT0SK?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5d759ad0145a57000154149c&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter (https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-parliament-johnson-idUSKCN1VT0SK?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5d759ad0145a57000154149c&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: SimonNZ on September 10, 2019, 02:16:15 PM

Q Have you been following the situation in London with Boris Johnson and the Brexit vote?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, Boris is a friend of mine. And he’s — he’s going at it. There’s no question about it. He’s in there — I watched him this morning. He’s in there fighting.  And he knows how to win. Boris knows how to win. Don’t worry about him. He’s going to be okay.


Translation: "I have no idea what you're talking about, it can't have been covered on Fox and Friends, but countries are best ruled by the whims of individual muppet-haired narcissists. Obviously."
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Muzio on September 11, 2019, 10:28:22 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/BvShJVZ7/Pol-Jeremy-Corbyn-daily-planner.jpg)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on September 13, 2019, 11:16:06 PM
Interesting to see David Cameron's re-appearance and read his views. He is rather more contrite than I expected:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/13/david-cameron-accuses-boris-johnson-and-michael-gove-of-behaving-appallingly-over-brexit

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on September 21, 2019, 11:14:21 PM
This matches my own impressions:

Supreme court poised to rule against Boris Johnson, say legal experts (https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/sep/22/supreme-court-verdict-boris-johnson-prorogation)

So chances are that the Supreme court might clonclude that Boris has been a naughty boy!  :)

But the worst consequence of this would be that he involved HM the Queen in an unlawful and unconstitutional act....

Now, what would the political repercussions of that be?
In the good old times that would mean resignation and the end of any polital career... but in these troubled times of a breakdown of political integrity?  ::)

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on September 21, 2019, 11:28:03 PM
This matches my own impressions:

Supreme court poised to rule against Boris Johnson, say legal experts (https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/sep/22/supreme-court-verdict-boris-johnson-prorogation)

So chances are that the Supreme court might clonclude that Boris has been a naughty boy!  :)

But the worst consequence of this would be that he involved HM the Queen in an unlawful and unconstitutional act....

Now, what would the political repercussions of that be?
In the good old times that would mean resignation and the end of any polital career... but in these troubled times of a breakdown of political integrity?  ::)

Q

The probability of the Queen's abdicating might be higher than that of Johnson's resigning.  :laugh:
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on September 21, 2019, 11:37:08 PM
The probability of the Queen's abdicating might be higher than that of Johnson's resigning.  :laugh:

I think you are right....

Whether Boris Johnson will achieve Brexit, only time will tell.

But he definitely achieved a constitutional crisis and the end of the British political system as we knew it. Though he shares the blame for that with David Cameron and Theresa May.

Q

PS What will the future fate of the English judiciary be without the excellence and integrity of Scottish judges?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Papy Oli on September 25, 2019, 01:03:36 AM
Do we know yet when One is expected to unleash One's corgis on the Commons' front bench today ?  >:D ;D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on September 25, 2019, 10:50:33 AM
I think that the Conservatives will eventually get rid of Johnson when they start to see him as an electoral liability rather that asset. The misleading of the Queen will have gone down very badly.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 25, 2019, 03:20:11 PM
The American Thinker devotes itself to promoting Trumpian propaganda. So it is no surprise its coverage of Brexit is similarly detached from reality.

The simple answer is that in passing the legislation, Parliament demonstrated it has no confidence in the current government, and that by the rules of the UK constitution Johnson should have resigned.

I suppose Boris has no more regard fir the UK Constitution, than Trump has for the American.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on September 25, 2019, 09:07:48 PM
So, Boris has indeed been a naughty boy but he - "with all respect to the Supreme court" - "disagrees profoundly."

As if that even matters?  ???
He is acting as if he is in political debate with the court, which shows he is actively undermining and politicizing its independent position.

Anyway, I feel that Johnson's opponents are waking up to the fact that he is not going to ask for an extension in Brussels and that they have to vote him out and install a caretaker government to do the job.

After that.... elections.... Boris might win, or it will be a hung parliament. In both cases: more chaos ahead...  ::)

Q


Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on September 25, 2019, 09:11:09 PM
Did Johnson say that he would NOT honour the Benn Act last night?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on September 25, 2019, 09:26:56 PM
Did Johnson say that he would NOT honour the Benn Act last night?

No, to my knowledge he did not say that...

But I can't imagine him asking for an extension - that would be political suicide.

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on September 25, 2019, 09:37:24 PM
Disgraceful show last night in HoC, I woke up feeling very depressed about it.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on September 25, 2019, 09:56:33 PM
Disgraceful show last night in HoC, I woke up feeling very depressed about it.


I can imagine...  ::)

And I don’t want to depress you any further but historically, when a political system is overtaken by populism - that is the sounding of its death knell...

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Iota on September 26, 2019, 04:14:34 AM
I suppose Boris has no more regard fir the UK Constitution, than Trump has for the American.

I think he has little regard for anything outside of his own wellbeing.
I do think what he's doing is very similar to what Trump seemed to do with voters in the rust belt et al, with claims of draining the swamp of Washington, in that he (Johnson) is portraying Parliament as the enemy of the people (as if he gives a toss about them) and himself their embattled saviour fighting to make their voice heard. Though really most MP's are just trying to stop a No Deal I think, which is not defying the referendum result, as he claims.

But, much as I am a Remainer, I think the Lib Dems policy of revoking Article 50, without an interim second referendum, is anti-democratic and wrong, and only adds fuel to the Leavers anti-Westminster grievances. There is a chance of course that a general election would come to be seen as a second referendum itself, thereby giving the Lib Dems more of a mandate to take such a step, but that seems a rather remote possibility. I personally feel a second referendum would be the most clarifying route to take, I think enough has changed to justify it.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Roasted Swan on September 26, 2019, 04:49:59 AM
The husband of murdered MP Jo Cox spoke extremely eloquently and with great good sense on national UK radio this morning.  He was NOT promoting one side of the debate over the other but simply stating that one of his wife's abiding philosophies was to respect and listen to the opinions of those with whom she disagreed.  A consequence of social media is that many people now only seek those who echo their own/current position.  Very little - on any subject - seems open to true debate anymore
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on September 26, 2019, 04:52:01 AM
A consequence of social media is that many people now only seek those who echo their own/current position.

We have a conspicuous example right here on GMG...   ;D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on September 26, 2019, 07:31:44 AM
Disgraceful show last night in HoC, I woke up feeling very depressed about it.
+1
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on September 26, 2019, 08:55:36 PM
Did Johnson say that he would NOT honour the Benn Act last night?

Boris Johnson may be planning to bypass a law blocking a no-deal Brexit by issuing an order to suspend it until after the scheduled date of Britain’s EU withdrawal on 31 October, former prime minister Sir John Major has warned.

The order could be passed by ministers acting in the Privy Council without the involvement of parliament or the Queen, said Sir John, who denounced the tactic as “a piece of political chicanery that no one should ever forgive or forget”.


I assume John Major has some  inside information...

Such a move by Johnson would undoubtedly lead to another case before the Supreme court....

The safest option for the opposition is to remove him from office.

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on September 26, 2019, 11:37:02 PM
The husband of murdered MP Jo Cox spoke extremely eloquently and with great good sense on national UK radio this morning.  He was NOT promoting one side of the debate over the other but simply stating that one of his wife's abiding philosophies was to respect and listen to the opinions of those with whom she disagreed.  A consequence of social media is that many people now only seek those who echo their own/current position.  Very little - on any subject - seems open to true debate anymore
I agree. Johnson said that the best way of honouring her memory was to deliver Brexit. And yet she was a passionate campaigner for Remain.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: DaveF on September 27, 2019, 01:02:22 AM
Boris Johnson may be planning to bypass a law blocking a no-deal Brexit by issuing an order to suspend it until after the scheduled date of Britain’s EU withdrawal on 31 October, former prime minister Sir John Major has warned.

The order could be passed by ministers acting in the Privy Council without the involvement of parliament or the Queen, said Sir John, who denounced the tactic as “a piece of political chicanery that no one should ever forgive or forget”.


Heresy!  :o :o The previous appeal to the Supreme Court, and the passing of the Benn Act, are "political chicanery".  The use of a Privy Council order to bypass parliament is "carrying out the will of the people". 
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on October 27, 2019, 02:30:38 AM
Labour is dragging its feet.... but the Lib Dems and the SNP are willing to support general elections through an amendment of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_2011):

Lib Dems offer Johnson route to December election (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/26/boris-johnson-no-brexit-until-january-block-christmas-general-election)


Now, will Boris Johnson win these elections?


BTW If I were the SNP, I would make a 2nd independence referendum part of the deal. Because if Johnson really does win the elections, Scotland might want to get out of the UK ASAP.....
And conveniently for Johnson, a departure of Scotland will change the balance of power in Westminster and solidify the position of the Conservatives for decades: English Tories have lost the slightest reason to care about the union (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/27/english-tories-have-lost-the-slightest-reason-to-care-about-the-union).
A Johnson-SNP win-win.....  ::)

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on October 29, 2019, 11:01:26 PM
The moment of truth for Johnson has arrived: elections are coming!


Parliament breaks Brexit deadlock with vote for 12 December election (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/29/uk-general-election-confirmed-for-12-december-after-brexit-stalemate)

I still think it's going to be either a landslide for Johnson or a hung parliament.
The SNP is set to take all Scottish seats, and Labour is likely to be slaughtered.
Just my two cents...  8)

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on October 30, 2019, 01:32:53 AM
The moment of truth for Johnson has arrived: elections are coming!


Parliament breaks Brexit deadlock with vote for 12 December election (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/29/uk-general-election-confirmed-for-12-december-after-brexit-stalemate)

I still think it's going to be either a landslide for Johnson or a hung parliament.
The SNP is set to take all Scottish seats, and Labour is likely to be slaughtered.
Just my two cents...  8)

Q

The resurgence of the Liberal party make predictions difficult. Their new leader Jo Swinson is playing a blinder. She has positioned the party to be first port of call for dyed in the wool remainers. As it stands now if this election is only about Brexit the voters who wish for Brexit to be revoked or a second referendum will migrate to Liberal not Labour.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on October 30, 2019, 08:36:08 AM
China balks at Korean musicians in an American orchestra
 https://www.violinist.com/blog/rufe/201910/27966/ (https://www.violinist.com/blog/rufe/201910/27966/)

Glad Eastman had a rethink.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on October 30, 2019, 09:02:49 AM
The resurgence of the Liberal party make predictions difficult. Their new leader Jo Swinson is playing a blinder. She has positioned the party to be first port of call for dyed in the wool remainers. As it stands now if this election is only about Brexit the voters who wish for Brexit to be revoked or a second referendum will migrate to Liberal not Labour.

If you want to keep the tories out, a vote for Liberal is not always going to be effective. If that’s your aim, in a seat like mine, held by a Tory with Labour second place, it’s probably best to vote Labour.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on October 31, 2019, 12:45:43 AM
If you want to keep the tories out, a vote for Liberal is not always going to be effective. If that’s your aim, in a seat like mine, held by a Tory with Labour second place, it’s probably best to vote Labour.

Yes, that is probably right. The only thing I would say with both Tories and Labour become more right/left extreme can a supporter of one hold his/her nose and vote for the other? It shows up the difference between a tactical and a protest vote.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on October 31, 2019, 12:50:13 AM
Yes, that is probably right. The only thing I would say with both Tories and Labour become more right/left extreme can a supporter of one hold his/her nose and vote for the other? It shows up the difference between a tactical and a protest vote.

I don't trust the tories to manage the post Brexit negotiations in a way which will preserve the things I hold most dear. Despite Labour's ineptitude, they are the lesser of the two evils.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on November 03, 2019, 10:01:32 AM
Boris Johnson's saving grace in the upcoming elections will be that most people really dislike Jeremy Corbyn...

How sad is that?  ::)

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: JBS on November 03, 2019, 05:39:18 PM
Boris Johnson's saving grace in the upcoming elections will be that most people really dislike Jeremy Corbyn...

How sad is that?  ::)

Q

Even sadder... Jeremy Corbyn's saving grace in the upcoming elections will be that most people really dislike Boris Johnson.

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on November 03, 2019, 10:20:57 PM
Even sadder... Jeremy Corbyn's saving grace in the upcoming elections will be that most people really dislike Boris Johnson.

The last bit is certainly true... But I don't think that many Conservative voters will vote Labour instead, more likely Lib Dem.

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on November 04, 2019, 12:18:34 AM
The last bit is certainly true... But I don't think that many Conservative voters will vote Labour instead, more likely Lib Dem.

Q

I think the Tories are more worried about the Brexit party then the Lib Dems, but I agree they won't vote Labour.

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 10, 2019, 08:18:37 AM
Corbyn will likely go the way of Kinnock - always the brides maid.

By the way, have you seen the new Love Actually style Johnson ad? It's actually quite effective...
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Iota on December 10, 2019, 04:27:45 PM
A musical exposition of what some might feel is Mr Johnson's most salient quality ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_G-FBSf1UI
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on December 11, 2019, 09:37:22 AM
French TV just had quite a nice discussion, C’est dans l’air on TV5. The line was that Corbyn’s failure is in not uniting anti Brexit parties, and not being able to turn the focus of the campaign away from Brexit. BJ’s success is in uniting pro Brexit parties and keeping the focus on Brexit.

 
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on December 11, 2019, 11:16:03 PM
Crunch time for Boris today....

Will he get his majority or will it be a hung parliament?  ::)

I wish our UK voters wisdom in making their choice. Their choice will be crucial for the future of their country, and of Europe as well....

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: jess on December 12, 2019, 01:06:45 AM
am feeling tired and i misread the thread title as 'Boris Johnson is Dead' but now I realise that's just wishful thinking
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on December 12, 2019, 06:22:53 AM
I hope everyone has seen this  -- I can't remember anything remotely like it in British politics before.

https://www.youtube.com/v/JWTOu5ul9HE
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: steve ridgway on December 12, 2019, 06:35:37 AM
I hope everyone has seen this  -- I can't remember anything remotely like it in British politics before.

https://www.youtube.com/v/JWTOu5ul9HE

I hadn't seen the video but this simplistic message to everyone who is sick of the whole Brexit process has been repeated a lot recently.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on December 12, 2019, 09:14:19 AM
Oven ready . . . Blue Peter . . .
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: André on December 12, 2019, 02:13:41 PM
BoJo won the lottery.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on December 12, 2019, 02:33:35 PM
A historic moment.

End of the UK, independence of Scotland, unification of Ireland (over time), loss of Gibraltar and the two bases on Cyprus, Channell Islands and Isle of Man loosing their ties with the UK and opting for the EU instead. And what will be the effect on Wales? At least more political and cultural autonomy in the future, isn't it?  Yet another troubling question, what will happen to all the territories oversea?  ???
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 12, 2019, 02:52:01 PM
A historic moment.

End of the UK, independence of Scotland, unification of Ireland (over time), loss of Gibraltar and the two bases on Cyprus, Channell Islands and Isle of Man loosing their ties with the UK and opting for the EU instead.

Hold your horses, young man!

Questions:

1. What will be the currency of a putatively independent Scotland?

2. A putatively independent Scotland will have at least one vote against his accession to the EU, thus blocking the whole thing. Can you guess which country will vote against?

3. Are you really arguing that, over time, the DUP and the Fianna Fail will agree to live and compete peacefully in the same country?

4. How is Gibraltar going to be lost by UK? And to whom?

5. How are the two bases on Cyprus, Channell Islands and Isle of Man going to sever their ties with UK and become part of the EU?

TIA for your answers.




Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 12, 2019, 02:53:47 PM
A historic moment.

End of the UK, independence of Scotland, unification of Ireland (over time), loss of Gibraltar and the two bases on Cyprus, Channell Islands and Isle of Man loosing their ties with the UK and opting for the EU instead. And what will be the effect on Wales? At least more political and cultural autonomy in the future, isn't it?  Yet another troubling question, what will happen to all the territories oversea?  ???

Yes. IMO it's a complete disaster for the UK.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 12, 2019, 02:55:48 PM
Yes. IMO it's a complete disaster for the UK.

Oh, come on, Jeffrey! Would you care to answer my questions above?

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 12, 2019, 03:05:27 PM
I don't quite get it, folks! Democratic, free elections have been called --- they took place --- yet their result is a complete disaster!

Why?

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 12, 2019, 03:11:29 PM
Crunch time for Boris today....

Will he get his majority or will it be a hung parliament?  ::)

I wish our UK voters wisdom in making their choice. Their choice will be crucial for the future of their country, and of Europe as well....

Q

They done good. 191 mistakes.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on December 12, 2019, 03:27:14 PM
I don't quite get it, folks! Democratic, free elections have been called --- they took place --- yet their result is a complete disaster!

Why?
Partly because the 'system' is hardly - to put it nicely - democratic at all, fortifying extremes only.
(Another one of course, that every place on earth monopolized by the Murdoch media is vulnerable to all kinds of distraction, Russian trolls & algorythms also helping, but the MMM probably a decisive factor over the last decades. Democracy cannot stand without Journalism, as proven by what we see occurring in US, UK and also Israel. But that's another story.  ;D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 12, 2019, 03:31:41 PM
that's another story.  ;D

That's actually blah blah blah.

Please answer this, TIA:

Questions:

1. What will be the currency of a putatively independent Scotland?

2. A putatively independent Scotland will have at least one vote against his accession to the EU, thus blocking the whole thing. Can you guess which country will vote against?

3. Are you really arguing that, over time, the DUP and the Fianna Fail will agree to live and compete peacefully in the same country?

4. How is Gibraltar going to be lost by UK? And to whom?

5. How are the two bases on Cyprus, Channell Islands and Isle of Man going to sever their ties with UK and become part of the EU?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on December 12, 2019, 03:34:01 PM
Please answer this, TIA:
That's actually blah blah blah.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Iota on December 12, 2019, 03:56:54 PM
It seems an unstoppable tide, inward looking-ness and regressiveness seem in the ascendant. Depressing indeed. : (
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 12, 2019, 03:57:50 PM
Oh, come on, Jeffrey! Would you care to answer my questions above?

Oh, I think your points are valid Andrei, although I think that there is a much stronger case for Scottish independence now. My despondency is due to the thought of the UK being governed by a swaggering bully for the next four years at least. I find it deeply depressing and can't stand our charlatan of a prime minister. I also think that the first past the post system is now anachronistic and we need a PR system which would be much more democratic.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 12, 2019, 04:02:40 PM
It seems an unstoppable tide, inward looking-ness and regressiveness seem in the ascendant. Depressing indeed. : (

Yes, the UK will be much weaker now. I can't stand the rise of the Little Englander, Xenophobic triumphalism which will no doubt follow tonight's debacle.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 12, 2019, 04:11:03 PM
Yes, the UK will be much weaker now. I can't stand the rise of the Little Englander, Xenophobic triumphalism which will no doubt follow tonight's debacle.

+1 to your recent posts...... sadly..........
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 12, 2019, 06:32:50 PM
It's hard to keep up.

The referendum must be rejected!
We need PR! Much more democratic!

Hmmm.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christabel on December 12, 2019, 08:39:33 PM
Oh, I think your points are valid Andrei, although I think that there is a much stronger case for Scottish independence now. My despondency is due to the thought of the UK being governed by a swaggering bully for the next four years at least. I find it deeply depressing and can't stand our charlatan of a prime minister. I also think that the first past the post system is now anachronistic and we need a PR system which would be much more democratic.

Spoken like a true supporter of democracy;  if you don't like the decision pour bile over the people and keep doing it until you get the decision you like. 
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christabel on December 12, 2019, 08:40:50 PM
Even sadder... Jeremy Corbyn's saving grace in the upcoming elections will be that most people really dislike Boris Johnson.

Absolutely priceless comment.  Really enjoying the BJ win and not sorry for the loss of the vicious anti-semite Corbyn and his cardigan communists.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christabel on December 12, 2019, 08:42:33 PM
am feeling tired and i misread the thread title as 'Boris Johnson is Dead' but now I realise that's just wishful thinking

A perennially undergraduate remark from an extremely competitive field.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: steve ridgway on December 12, 2019, 09:12:24 PM
Hold your horses, young man!

Questions:

1. What will be the currency of a putatively independent Scotland?

2. A putatively independent Scotland will have at least one vote against his accession to the EU, thus blocking the whole thing. Can you guess which country will vote against?

3. Are you really arguing that, over time, the DUP and the Fianna Fail will agree to live and compete peacefully in the same country?

4. How is Gibraltar going to be lost by UK? And to whom?

5. How are the two bases on Cyprus, Channell Islands and Isle of Man going to sever their ties with UK and become part of the EU?

TIA for your answers.

4 & 5 - Cyprus and Spain would be able to claim these were enclaves within EU countries occupied by a non-EU country and so the EU as a whole would support them.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 12, 2019, 09:16:49 PM
4 & 5 - Cyprus and Spain would be able to claim these were enclaves within EU countries occupied by a non-EU country and so the EU as a whole would support them.

Ah. Pixie dust.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 12, 2019, 09:18:36 PM
It's hard to keep up.

The referendum must be rejected!
We need PR! Much more democratic!

Hmmm.

PR is more democratic. At the moment the Lib Dems, for example, have 12% of the vote but nothing like 12% in the seats of the HOC.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 12, 2019, 09:21:43 PM
Spoken like a true supporter of democracy;  if you don't like the decision pour bile over the people and keep doing it until you get the decision you like.

PR is more democratic and I can't stand Boris Johnson - I'm not sure that constitutes 'pouring bile over the people...'
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 12, 2019, 09:46:09 PM
There seems to be an implicit assumption that Boris Johnson will now be able to carry our Brexit with his fresh majority. For all we know he is headed for more failed votes and stalemate...
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 12, 2019, 09:50:46 PM
PR is more democratic and I can't stand Boris Johnson - I'm not sure that constitutes 'pouring bile over the people...'
Maybe it is. A referendum is still more democratic. Yet you rejected the referendum when your side lost it. You want more democracy when it suits you and less when it doesn’t.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: steve ridgway on December 12, 2019, 09:51:24 PM
Hold your horses, young man!

Questions:

1. What will be the currency of a putatively independent Scotland?

2. A putatively independent Scotland will have at least one vote against his accession to the EU, thus blocking the whole thing. Can you guess which country will vote against?

3. Are you really arguing that, over time, the DUP and the Fianna Fail will agree to live and compete peacefully in the same country?

4. How is Gibraltar going to be lost by UK? And to whom?

5. How are the two bases on Cyprus, Channell Islands and Isle of Man going to sever their ties with UK and become part of the EU?

TIA for your answers.

1 - Scottish Pounds until they ask to join the EU.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 12, 2019, 09:52:40 PM
There seems to be an implicit assumption that Boris Johnson will now be able to carry our Brexit with his fresh majority. For all we know he is headed for more failed votes and stalemate...
Let’s bet. Propose a date and let’s see if we can agree a wager.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on December 12, 2019, 09:53:28 PM
PR is more democratic. At the moment the Lib Dems, for example, have 12% of the vote but nothing like 12% in the seats of the HOC.

Of course it is, not only more, but the essential difference between ´to be a democracy or no democacry´ as your Poet would put it. Under democratic circumstances, not only would the Liberal Democrats own over 20 percent of the vote, but others would be represented as well (and there would be no Brexit of course).

My comment: bullshit on stilts.
Once again your rather choleric temperament - you would call it Latin, I guess it's better being called Andrei - propells you to ask for the obvious. As Journalism happens to be my special interest - wrote some books - your low opinion doesn't bother me, but your personal health does. Are you okay?  ???
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: steve ridgway on December 12, 2019, 09:54:35 PM
There seems to be an implicit assumption that Boris Johnson will now be able to carry our Brexit with his fresh majority. For all we know he is headed for more failed votes and stalemate...

I believe the Conservative rebel MPs have now been replaced.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 12, 2019, 09:57:00 PM
Of course it is, not only more, but the essential difference between ´to be a democracy or no democacry´ as your Poet would put it. Under democratic circumstances, not only would the Liberal Democrats own over 20 percent of the vote, but others would be represented as well (and there would be no Brexit of course).
Once again your rather choleric temperament - you would call it Latin, I guess it's better being called Andrei - propells you to ask for the obvious. As Journalism happens to be my special interest - wrote some books - your low opinion doesn't bother me, but your personal health does. Are you okay?  ???
Under “democratic circumstances “ the referendum would have settled it.  Remind me who won?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on December 12, 2019, 09:57:45 PM
Under “democratic circumstances “ the referendum would have settled it.  Remind me who won?
A girl called Lies.  :D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: steve ridgway on December 12, 2019, 10:00:08 PM
Under “democratic circumstances “ the referendum would have settled it.  Remind me who won?

True as that was a genuine two option vote for an action rather than a party and where every vote counted equally rather than only those in marginal constituencies.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 12, 2019, 11:08:15 PM
Maybe it is. A referendum is still more democratic. Yet you rejected the referendum when your side lost it. You want more democracy when it suits you and less when it doesn’t.

I supported a second referendum (actually third) as many others did, as the consequences of Brexit have become clearer. Also, I'm old enough to have voted in the original referendum of 1975 (first time I could vote) when the country voted to stay in the EEC (EU). At that time I voted to leave out of loyalty to the Commonwealth. That result has been conveniently forgotten (Johnson has just referred to 'removing the threat' of a second referendum. In point of fact it would have been a third referendum).. The only time I ever voted for anything or anyone who actually got elected was for Jo Swinson as Liberal leader and look how well that has ended. At least she spoke with great dignity after losing her seat and referenced the wave of nationalism which is now sweeping the country. She said that millions will look with dread at the result of this election. I'm one of those but that does not mean that I think that the result should be overturned. I want the UK to remain united and to have a voice in world affairs. I thought that was much more likely as a member of the EU.

Good morning (from the UK) everyone.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 13, 2019, 12:21:07 AM
Once again your rather choleric temperament - you would call it Latin, I guess it's better being called Andrei

Hah hah! Touche!  :D

Quote
- propells you to ask for the obvious. As Journalism happens to be my special interest - wrote some books - your low opinion doesn't bother me, but your personal health does. Are you okay?  ???

I am, thanks for asking and I hope you are too.  :-*
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Jo498 on December 13, 2019, 02:13:44 AM
I think the main cause in the "long run" is the largely undemocratic nature of the EU. I used to be neutral/mildly positive about the EU, but in the last 10-15 years I have come to the conclusion that it really is a lobbycratic nightmare. It's putting any Latin american "banana republic" to shame in its open or loosely covered up corruption (how can someone like Lagarde ever be regarded fit for office after the scandals in her past?!?!?), is devouring billlions and overall very often "against the people" (or at least against the 90% who ar employées, small business etc.).

Therefore I am not at all surprised that the Brits acted as they did. It might not improve things for them, but anything that weakens the EU and hastens a rollback to a more loosely organized union (like it used to be in 70s and 80s) could be good. I am not optimistic, though, because the Merkels and Macrons think that we need to get ever closer and more empire-like to stand up against Russia, China and the US.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 13, 2019, 02:24:43 AM
4 & 5 - Cyprus and Spain would be able to claim these were enclaves within EU countries occupied by a non-EU country and so the EU as a whole would support them.

I remind you that both Cyprus and Spain have their own (grave) problems with internal secessionism. Incorporating territories seceded from another nation would undermine their own claims to territorial sovereignty. This is also the reason why Spain would probably not recognize an independent Scotland, let alone vot for her accession to the EU. Actually, an independent Scotland is the last thing EU would want to see, because it would open a can of worms compared to which Brexit would look like a walk in the park at noon.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 13, 2019, 02:26:35 AM
1 - Scottish Pounds until they ask to join the EU.

Do you really think it's that easy? Fiat Scottish Pound and here it is?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 13, 2019, 04:54:18 AM
Oh, I think your points are valid Andrei, although I think that there is a much stronger case for Scottish independence now. My despondency is due to the thought of the UK being governed by a swaggering bully for the next four years at least. I find it deeply depressing and can't stand our charlatan of a prime minister.

Frustration and anger is something I've felt myself over many Romanian elections, Jeffrey, so I can understand you. But given that Labor Party has plunged headlong into Corbynism, could it really have been otherwise? Probably ordinary people have had enough of all the tergiversations and procrastinations and incertitude and voted for the party which, for all their faults, is most likely to get the Brexit done at last.

Honestly, I think the best thing for Britain now is to get the bloody Brexit done as soon as possible. If things go well thereafter, all right. If they don't, you can always apply for EU membership.  :D

Quote
I also think that the first past the post system is now anachronistic and we need a PR system which would be much more democratic.

PR ensures a better and more fair representation, I agree, but I don't see any chance of it being implemented in UK any time soon.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 13, 2019, 04:54:21 AM
I think the main cause in the "long run" is the largely undemocratic nature of the EU. I used to be neutral/mildly positive about the EU, but in the last 10-15 years I have come to the conclusion that it really is a lobbycratic nightmare. It's putting any Latin american "banana republic" to shame in its open or loosely covered up corruption (how can someone like Lagarde ever be regarded fit for office after the scandals in her past?!?!?), is devouring billlions and overall very often "against the people" (or at least against the 90% who ar employées, small business etc.).

Therefore I am not at all surprised that the Brits acted as they did. It might not improve things for them, but anything that weakens the EU and hastens a rollback to a more loosely organized union (like it used to be in 70s and 80s) could be good. I am not optimistic, though, because the Merkels and Macrons think that we need to get ever closer and more empire-like to stand up against Russia, China and the US.
Interesting. I rather regretted that we left EFTA (if we ever did!) which was an economic rather than political arrangement.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 13, 2019, 04:56:42 AM
Frustration and anger is something I've felt myself over many Romanian elections, Jeffrey, so I can understand you. But given that Labor Party has plunged headlong into Corbynism, could it really have been otherwise? Probably ordinary people have had enough of all the tergiversations and procrastinations and incertitude and voted for the party which, for all their faults, is most likely to get the Brexit done at last.

Honestly, I think the best thing for Britain now is to get the bloody Brexit done as soon as possible. If things go well thereafter, all right. If they don't, you can always apply for EU membership.  :D

PR ensures a better and more fair representation, I agree, but I don't see any chance of it being implemented in UK any time soon.

Largely agree with you Andrei. Anyhow, I couldn't argue with you today as it's your birthday!
:-)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 13, 2019, 04:58:27 AM
Largely agree with you Andrei. Anyhow, I couldn't argue with you today as it's your birthday!
:-)

 :D  :-*
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 13, 2019, 06:31:13 AM
Largely agree with you Andrei. Anyhow, I couldn't argue with you today as it's your birthday!
:-)
Don’t tell him that. Suddenly he'll have several hundred birthdays a year!
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Wanderer on December 13, 2019, 06:56:32 AM
I remind you that both Cyprus and Spain have their own (grave) problems with internal secessionism. Incorporating territories seceded from another nation would undermine their own claims to territorial sovereignty. This is also the reason why Spain would probably not recognize an independent Scotland, let alone vot for her accession to the EU. Actually, an independent Scotland is the last thing EU would want to see, because it would open a can of worms compared to which Brexit would look like a walk in the park at noon.

Just to be clear, Cyprus does not have an "internal secessionism" problem, it has an invasion and illegal occupation problem. We should not fall into the trap of Turkish propaganda that says otherwise. Carry on.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 13, 2019, 07:16:08 AM
I remind you that both Cyprus and Spain have their own (grave) problems with internal secessionism. Incorporating territories seceded from another nation would undermine their own claims to territorial sovereignty. This is also the reason why Spain would probably not recognize an independent Scotland, let alone vot for her accession to the EU. Actually, an independent Scotland is the last thing EU would want to see, because it would open a can of worms compared to which Brexit would look like a walk in the park at noon.

Yet more reasons to support Scottish independence!

I think people need to take more seriously the resistance to homogenization.  A lot of smaller groups want to preserve their culture and feel that the larger units of which they are part are inimical to that. Not to be dismissed lightly.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: André on December 13, 2019, 07:39:45 AM
Yet more reasons to support Scottish independence!

I think people need to take more seriously the resistance to homogenization.  A lot of smaller groups want to preserve their culture and feel that the larger units of which they are part are inimical to that. Not to be dismissed lightly.

Agreed.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 13, 2019, 07:47:35 AM
Just to be clear, Cyprus does not have an "internal secessionism" problem, it has an invasion and illegal occupation problem. We should not fall into the trap of Turkish propaganda that says otherwise. Carry on.

Yes, of course.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Jo498 on December 13, 2019, 08:24:46 AM
Yet more reasons to support Scottish independence!

I think people need to take more seriously the resistance to homogenization.  A lot of smaller groups want to preserve their culture and feel that the larger units of which they are part are inimical to that. Not to be dismissed lightly.
The current milieu juste in Germany (and most of Western Europe) thinks that there is no identifiable (e.g.) German culture beyond common language (this was famously said by a second rank German politician of Asia minor or Levante heritage), but that there is some vague European culture.
They think that (at least in theory) Kurds, Yanomami, Palestinians have a right to defend their own culture and have areas where they can ask other people to not enter or leave (and we should support them in their struggle to keep their identity and culture get these regional rights). They are vague about Catalans and Scots having a similar right and they are adamant that Poles or Thuringians don't have it (or at least shouldn't have it) and if the latter think otherwise they are far right wing. For some unknown reason nationalism is only bad at a certain scale, it's o.k. at most very local scales and also at fairly large scales (like Europe or "the West") but among the most evil things in history at the national scale. It's mind boggling.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: steve ridgway on December 13, 2019, 08:26:37 AM
Do you really think it's that easy? Fiat Scottish Pound and here it is?

No, I am just thinking they will want to continue using UK Pounds, won’t be able to but will want to call their currency Pounds or similar as the Republic of Ireland did, and maybe try to maintain a fixed exchange rate as well, then will be told by the EU they won’t get special terms but will have to use the Euro like everyone else, etc. etc. But they needn’t expect me to sort the mess out for them :P.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: steve ridgway on December 13, 2019, 08:33:36 AM
The current milieu juste in Germany (and most of Western Europe) thinks that there is no identifiable (e.g.) German culture beyond common language (this was famously said by a second rank German politician of Asia minor or Levante heritage), but that there is some vague European culture.
They think that (at least in theory) Kurds, Yanomami, Palestinians have a right to defend their own culture and have areas where they can ask other people to not enter or leave (and we should support them in their struggle to keep their identity and culture get these regional rights). They are vague about Catalans and Scots having a similar right and they are adamant that Poles or Thuringians don't have it (or at least shouldn't have it) and if the latter think otherwise they are far right wing. For some unknown reason nationalism is only bad at a certain scale, it's o.k. at most very local scales and also at fairly large scales (like Europe or "the West") but among the most evil things in history at the national scale. It's mind boggling.

Unfortunately bits of these islands have for a very long time been labelled England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland which only reinforces the ideas of difference and separation. The name Northern Ireland on the other hand conveys the idea that it’s really part of Ireland. People believe in these labels.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 13, 2019, 09:38:03 AM
Unfortunately bits of these islands have for a very long time been labelled England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland which only reinforces the ideas of difference and separation. The name Northern Ireland on the other hand conveys the idea that it’s really part of Ireland. People believe in these labels.
Bwahaha! “Scotland is just Ipswich with colder winters.”  ::)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 13, 2019, 11:07:09 AM
I don’t see that it is likely that a second (third) referendum would have reversed the previous, given that the conservatives won so decisively on the platform “get brexit done.”
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 13, 2019, 11:13:32 AM
I don’t see that it is likely that a second (third) referendum would have reversed the previous, given that the conservatives won so decisively on the platform “get brexit done.”

Next time hold both referenda on the same day, using the same ballot.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: ritter on December 13, 2019, 11:16:55 AM
I’ll just post in this thread to....wish Andrei a very happy birthday!!!!

Un abrazo,
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: André on December 13, 2019, 11:25:57 AM
Next time hold both referenda on the same day, using the same ballot.

The heading for the second portion of the ballot would be ‘On Second Thought’.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on December 13, 2019, 11:28:04 AM
Next time hold both referenda on the same day, using the same ballot.

I think the idea was to make the British people take the test again and again and again until they get the answer right, like in History tests in school.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 13, 2019, 12:13:55 PM
Don’t tell him that. Suddenly he'll have several hundred birthdays a year!
Haha  :)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 13, 2019, 12:15:30 PM
I don’t see that it is likely that a second (third) referendum would have reversed the previous, given that the conservatives won so decisively on the platform “get brexit done.”
Yes, that may well be true.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: JBS on December 13, 2019, 12:40:51 PM
I don’t see that it is likely that a second (third) referendum would have reversed the previous, given that the conservatives won so decisively on the platform “get brexit done.”

But did they?
I am under the impression that only the Liberal Democrats were against Brexit, and that Corbyn/Labour's position was a sort of "well, we'll see if we can get a better Brexit, or maybe not..."
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christabel on December 13, 2019, 12:48:46 PM
But did they?
I am under the impression that only the Liberal Democrats were against Brexit, and that Corbyn/Labour's position was a sort of "well, we'll see if we can get a better Brexit, or maybe not..."

Oh, this is funny!!  Meanwhile, over at the Guardianistas;  they're just finding out what most of us have already known for ages!!  How can anybody read that rag populated by activists and school-aged ingenues!!?  The "educated Left" - not the sharpest tools in the shed:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/jeremy-corbyn-labour-manifesto-antisemitism-brexit

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 13, 2019, 01:09:26 PM
Oh, this is funny!!  Meanwhile, over at the Guardianistas;  they're just finding out what most of us have already known for ages!!  How can anybody read that rag populated by activists and school-aged ingenues!!?  The "educated Left" - not the sharpest tools in the shed:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/jeremy-corbyn-labour-manifesto-antisemitism-brexit

Thanks for posting that. I very much agree with her analysis of the situation we (in the UK) are now in.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 13, 2019, 01:49:52 PM
Imperialism dies hard. I hear laments from Remainers that they might no longer rule over distant islands, outposts, and people. The oldest imperial possession might elude their control, and teeth are gnashed.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: steve ridgway on December 13, 2019, 09:31:21 PM
Imperialism dies hard. I hear laments from Remainers that they might no longer rule over distant islands, outposts, and people. The oldest imperial possession might elude their control, and teeth are gnashed.

I don’t suppose Scotland would spend so much of their money on the military, maybe England would cut back to more of a self defence force. I never liked “Land of Hope and Glory” anyway.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 13, 2019, 09:32:18 PM
Repeating the referendum, which was non-binding anyway, doesn't seem like such an inappropriate move. After all, you could argue that when people voted for brexit they thought it would be relatively simple. Now after more than three years and no agreed plan other than crashing out, maybe people would think differently.

But that does not appear to be the case, since the guy who ran on "get brexit done" got overwhelming support. Presumably the second referendum would be even more decisive in favor of brexit.

For what it's worth, my view is that there never should have been a referendum at all. Direct democracy is a terrible way to govern (as California with its propositions has proven time and time again). Representative Democracy, a Republic, is what works (to the extent anything works).

I don't see the point in bashing Boris Johnson. Like Trump, he is a symptom, not a cause, of political disfunction. England has earned him.

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 14, 2019, 12:46:32 AM
Repeating the referendum, which was non-binding anyway, doesn't seem like such an inappropriate move. After all, you could argue that when people voted for brexit they thought it would be relatively simple. Now after more than three years and no agreed plan other than crashing out, maybe people would think differently.

But that does not appear to be the case, since the guy who ran on "get brexit done" got overwhelming support. Presumably the second referendum would be even more decisive in favor of brexit.

For what it's worth, my view is that there never should have been a referendum at all. Direct democracy is a terrible way to govern (as California with its propositions has proven time and time again). Representative Democracy, a Republic, is what works (to the extent anything works).

I don't see the point in bashing Boris Johnson. Like Trump, he is a symptom, not a cause, of political disfunction. England has earned him.

Of course there should never have been a referendum. You are right. David 'I'm not a quitter' Cameron's idiotic decision to hold one was bound to polarise the country. Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher, from opposite ends of the political spectrum, were totally opposed to them.

Thanks to everyone for their views.

'Let the healing begin'
 :)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on December 14, 2019, 12:49:05 AM
Of course there should never have been a referendum. You are right. David 'I'm not a quitter' Cameron's idiotic decision to hold one was bound to polarise the country. Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher, from opposite ends of the political spectrum, were totally opposed to them.

Thanks to everyone for their views. 'Let the healing begin'
 :)
First there will be much suffering (called 'Brexit' and all of its apparently unforeseen consequences called 'End of the UK'). Then there will be much healing (needed too).  ::)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on December 14, 2019, 12:58:10 AM
Of course there should never have been a referendum. You are right. David 'I'm not a quitter' Cameron's idiotic decision to hold one was bound to polarise the country. Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher, from opposite ends of the political spectrum, were totally opposed to them.

Thanks to everyone for their views.

'Let the healing begin'
 :)


The problem is that the British electoral system is not designed to heal political divides....  ::)

Yes, Boris got more votes than any of the others.
But if you tally all votes, a small majority voted for parties either against Brexit or in favour of a 2nd referendum.

The combined total vote share for the pro-Brexit parties reached 47.33%, while on the other hand, Labour's vote share combined with the Liberal Democrats, SNP, Greens, Sinn Fein, Plaid Cymru and Alliance gives an overall share of 52.67%.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/more-than-52-of-the-general-election-vote-went-to-pro-remain-parties-1-6424196

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 14, 2019, 01:11:56 AM
Imperialism dies hard. I hear laments from Remainers that they might no longer rule over distant islands, outposts, and people. The oldest imperial possession might elude their control, and teeth are gnashed.

Utter nonsense!!  Do you really equate Remain with Imperialism!??  Remain is about staying part of a wider political/social/economic whole all collaborating.  Brexit has more of a whiff of pulling up a drawbridge and reckoning we'll be "better" on our own.  This will be a slow motion economic/social disaster.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on December 14, 2019, 02:51:54 AM
From The Guardian

Shortly before 2.30am, Jeremy Corbyn arrived, smiling and waving to his supporters, at his Islington count. No one appeared to have told him that Labour was suffering its worst result at a general election since 1935 and was predicted to win fewer than 200 seats.

An hour later, once the declaration had been made, the severity of the defeat still hadn’t sunk in as the Labour leader began his acceptance speech. It was a disappointing night, he said. A setback, nothing more. If his manifesto had had a flaw, it was that it had been too good for the country. It had been the country’s fault that Labour had not won the election. The people had allowed themselves to be manipulated by the mainstream media into being distracted by Brexit.

However, even though he took no responsibility for Labour’s defeat, Corbyn did concede that he wouldn’t lead the party into another glorious general election. He would stand down, but in his own time. Only after he had been able to engineer a suitable replacement who would build on his magnificent legacy and lead Labour to an even more crushing humiliation. The few Labour party supporters around the country who weren’t already paralytically drunk, each downed an entire bottle of scotch."
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 14, 2019, 04:54:59 AM

The problem is that the British electoral system is not designed to heal political divides....  ::)

Yes, Boris got more votes than any of the others.
But if you tally all votes, a small majority voted for parties either against Brexit or in favour of a 2nd referendum.

The combined total vote share for the pro-Brexit parties reached 47.33%, while on the other hand, Labour's vote share combined with the Liberal Democrats, SNP, Greens, Sinn Fein, Plaid Cymru and Alliance gives an overall share of 52.67%.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/more-than-52-of-the-general-election-vote-went-to-pro-remain-parties-1-6424196

Q
Yes, I read that too. Interesting.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 14, 2019, 04:58:37 AM
Imperialism dies hard. I hear laments from Remainers that they might no longer rule over distant islands, outposts, and people. The oldest imperial possession might elude their control, and teeth are gnashed.
I agree with Roasted Swan and see no connection between Remainers and Imperialism, unless you mean that Britain would try to 'take over' the EU had we remained. It is the Little Englander mentality demonstrated by some Leave supporters which smacks more of Imperialism I think.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 14, 2019, 05:43:33 AM

The problem is that the British electoral system is not designed to heal political divides....  ::)

Yes, Boris got more votes than any of the others.
But if you tally all votes, a small majority voted for parties either against Brexit or in favour of a 2nd referendum.

The combined total vote share for the pro-Brexit parties reached 47.33%, while on the other hand, Labour's vote share combined with the Liberal Democrats, SNP, Greens, Sinn Fein, Plaid Cymru and Alliance gives an overall share of 52.67%.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/more-than-52-of-the-general-election-vote-went-to-pro-remain-parties-1-6424196

Q

Is Labour really decisively anti-Brexit? That may be anti-Boris’s plan at any given moment, but I could never discern what they were for, from what I read.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Todd on December 14, 2019, 05:52:40 AM
Dig the BoJo mojo, and find very amusing the lamentations about the outcome of a democratic election.  Pfft, stupid voters.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 14, 2019, 05:54:47 AM
Letter in the Guardian:

'At times like these it’s good to recall the graceful and reflective words of Dick Tuck’s concession speech when he lost a California senate race in 1966: “The people have spoken, the bastards.”
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 14, 2019, 06:57:45 AM
Utter nonsense!!  Do you really equate Remain with Imperialism!??  Remain is about staying part of a wider political/social/economic whole all collaborating.  Brexit has more of a whiff of pulling up a drawbridge and reckoning we'll be "better" on our own.  This will be a slow motion economic/social disaster.

I don’t “equate” it. That’s a rhetorical dodge. I point out the underlying psychology of the complaints I listed.
But the laments are as I have described: Englishmen bemoaning the prospect of losing the power to govern the non English.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: steve ridgway on December 14, 2019, 07:07:57 AM
I don’t “equate” it. That’s a rhetorical dodge. I point out the underlying psychology of the complaints I listed.
But the laments are as I have described: Englishmen bemoaning the prospect of losing the power to govern the non English.

I’d rather think of it as losing the responsibility to govern the non English. Like we celebrate getting rid of America on July 4th :P.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 14, 2019, 07:15:47 AM
I’d rather think of it as losing the responsibility to govern the non English. Like we celebrate getting rid of America on July 4th :P.
Nice point. “Take up the Pommie's burden of Baner Cymru ...”
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 14, 2019, 11:04:56 AM
I want the UK to remain united and to have a voice in world affairs. I thought that was much more likely as a member of the EU.

After Brexit the UK will continue to be a very important country. The UK can afford dispensing with the EU membership. Romania or Poland or the Baltic States cannot. Between "homogenization" within EU (which is greatly exaggerated anyway) and "independence" without EU (which means at best and theoretically a limbo and at worst and practically falling back within Russia's sphere of influence) I vastly prefer the former.

EDIT 1: That is, politically and economically wise. Militarily wise, NATO is of paramount importance. Macron is a cretin.

EDIT 2: This is also why my score on a test in another thread indicated I was "strongly globalist". I strongly agreed that the EU made Romania more prosperous and strongly disagreed that the EU undermined the independence of the Romanian parliament.

Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 14, 2019, 11:08:01 AM
Letter in the Guardian:

'At times like these it’s good to recall the graceful and reflective words of Dick Tuck’s concession speech when he lost a California senate race in 1966: “The people have spoken, the bastards.”

No, no, no, a thousand times no! This is wrong, very wrong! Jeffrey, please, tell me you don't actually subscribe to this.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 14, 2019, 11:32:35 AM
After Brexit the UK will continue to be a very important country. The UK can afford dispensing with the EU membership. Romania or Poland or the Baltic States cannot. Between "homogenization" within EU (which is greatly exaggerated anyway) and "independence" without EU (which means at best and theoretically a limbo and at worst and practically falling back within Russia's sphere of influence) I vastly prefer the former.

EDIT 1: That is, politically and economically wise. Militarily wise, NATO is of paramount importance.

EDIT 2: This is also why my score on a test in another thread indicated I was "strongly globalist". I strongly agreed that the EU made Romania more prosperous and strongly disagreed that the EU undermined the independence of the Romanian parliament.

Thanks for this Andrei and I like to think it's true. As for the 'bastards' quote I was just amused by the paradox of the seemingly reasonable 'the people have spoken' with the underlying 'real' thought - 'the bastards'. I don't think that everyone who voted for Brexit was a bastard (that would include some friends of mine and family members).
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 14, 2019, 11:34:56 AM
No, no, no, a thousand times no! This is wrong, very wrong! Jeffrey, please, tell me you don't actually subscribe to this.
See above Andrei.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 14, 2019, 11:35:54 AM
No, no, no, a thousand times no! This is wrong, very wrong! Jeffrey, please, tell me you don't actually subscribe to this.
I think that quote is actually pretty funny. At least it shows a willingness to accept the result, which not all election losers do these days. You can accept that they have the right to decide and still think their decision wrong.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 14, 2019, 11:44:18 AM
Thanks for this Andrei and I like to think it's true.

Do you see any reason for it's not being true?


Quote
As for the 'bastards' quote I was just amused by the paradox of the seemingly reasonable 'the people have spoken' with the underlying 'real' thought - 'the bastards'.

Amusing it is, I admit.

Quote
I don't think that everyone who voted for Brexit was a bastard (that would include some friends of mine and family members).

I am not British but I do think that none of the common British people who voted for Brexit was a bastard. (I do think Nigel Farage is a bastard, though)

Fwiw, I have close relatives living and working in the UK. They don't seem particularly worried by Brexit.

Question: will your way of life, or that of your friends and family members, change dramatically after Brexit is done for good?
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 14, 2019, 11:49:36 AM
I think that quote is actually pretty funny. At least it shows a willingness to accept the result, which not all election losers do these days. You can accept that they have the right to decide and still think their decision wrong.

Twenty years ago I could have said "the bastards" myself. (I actually did say it). But in time I realized that this is exactly the kind of attitude and reaction that ensures "the bastards deplorables" will keep voting the way they did.

Either we accept democracy (ie, one man one vote), or we don't. There was a time I didn't. Today, I do.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 14, 2019, 12:00:25 PM
Do you see any reason for it's not being true?


Amusing it is, I admit.

I am not British but I do think that none of the common British people who voted for Brexit was a bastard. (I do think Nigel Farage is a bastard, though)

Fwiw, I have close relatives living and working in the UK. They don't seem particularly worried by Brexit.

Question: will your way of life, or that of your friends and family members, change dramatically after Brexit is done for good?

Well Andrei, I think that the UK would have had more influence inside the EU than outside it. I don't yet know the answer to your last question - time will tell I guess.

I fear that there will be a 'brain drain' as a result of Brexit. The already short-staffed NHS , for example, is quite reliant, I think, on doctors and nurses from EU countries who may now feel unwelcome in the UK. The same could happen to business and industry which may now relocate overseas. I hope that I'm being alarmist.

We do, however, agree about Nigel Farage (whom my daughter has interviewed when she worked on a local newspaper).  ;D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Florestan on December 14, 2019, 12:08:50 PM
Well Andrei, I think that the UK would have had more influence inside Europe than outside it.

As I previously said (in various occasions, not just on this thread), I am a staunch partisan and defender of the EU, for all its faults (which are many). Honestly, I'd rather be ruled by faceless bureaucrats in Brussels than by Putin or whoever is going to succeed him.

As my avatar testifies, I am a convinced Russophile culturally speaking. As my posts testify, I am a convinced Russophobe politically speaking.   :D

Quote
I don't yet know the answer to your last question - time will tell I guess.

Yes, wait and see, what else can you/we do?

Quote
We do, however, agree about Nigel Farage (whom my daughter has interviewed when she worked on a local newspaper)  ;D

He's an idiot.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Mandryka on December 14, 2019, 12:21:47 PM
 I was planning on upping sticks and moving to France. I'm reluctant to do that now, because I'm not sure how secure I'd be, how my tax position might evolve, what sort of health care I could expect etc. This is quite a dramatic change.

And something already. I went to Tesco today and there were no aubergines!!!!!!!!!!!! This doesn't bode well, I think in a couple of years we'll all be eating bread and dripping again, drinking Double Diamond.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christabel on December 14, 2019, 08:50:38 PM
As I previously said (in various occasions, not just on this thread), I am a staunch partisan and defender of the EU, for all its faults (which are many). Honestly, I'd rather be ruled by faceless bureaucrats in Brussels than by Putin or whoever is going to succeed him.

As my avatar testifies, I am a convinced Russophile culturally speaking. As my posts testify, I am a convinced Russophobe politically speaking.   :D

Yes, wait and see, what else can you/we do?

He's an idiot.

He speaks well of you, though. ;D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on December 14, 2019, 11:51:51 PM
As my avatar testifies, I am a convinced Russophile culturally speaking. As my posts testify, I am a convinced Russophobe politically speaking.   :D

Amen. Among all the 50+ nations/countries I've been frequenting over the last 40 years, I think I cannot deny that Russia (also Romania, but that's of course obvious :)) is among the places I felt most at home. Saint-Peterburg, to mention one name, perhaps my favourite city of them all, but Khanty-Mansiisk another place I simply cannot forget - nor so many other places & people.
In Saint-Peterburg I know people who worked with Putin in his uncorrupted years - he had. Whatever people think about Russia, there's hardly another place in this globe I love more - okay, perhaps Turkey and Georgia, but that's about it, because Russia is bigger, a never-ending story  ???
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 15, 2019, 12:52:41 AM
Amen. Among all the 50+ nations/countries I've been frequenting over the last 40 years, I think I cannot deny that Russia (also Romania, but that's of course obvious :)) is among the places I felt most at home. Saint-Peterburg, to mention one name, perhaps my favourite city of them all, but Khanty-Mansiisk another place I simply cannot forget - nor so many other places & people.
In Saint-Peterburg I know people who worked with Putin in his uncorrupted years - he had. Whatever people think about Russia, there's hardly another place in this globe I love more - okay, perhaps Turkey and Georgia, but that's about it, because Russia is bigger, a never-ending story  ???

For obvious reasons the Netherlands is the other country where I feel most at home.
 ;)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Que on December 15, 2019, 03:28:00 AM
For obvious reasons the Netherlands is the other country where I feel most at home.
 ;)

We are ready to adopt you!  :)

Do you have dual nationality?

Q
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 15, 2019, 03:37:16 AM
We are ready to adopt you!  :)

Do you have dual nationality?

Q

How nice. :) Sadly not, otherwise we'd all be Dutch by now in current circumstances. Great Great Grandfather was a Dutchman I think and I gather he may have arrived here on a herring boat. I like to think so anyway but we have been long established in the UK.

The other country I feel very at home in is Finland.

On a separate note my fellow history teaching friend and former colleague wrote this:

'In historical terms I suppose Labour dreamt of 1945 with Red Flag sung in Parliament but got 1784 with defeat of overconfident  London based Whigs by old fashioned conservative people in the shires.  Though not the most sustainable comparison between Fox and Corbyn and Pitt and Johnson, of course.'
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Irons on December 15, 2019, 03:46:59 AM
Is Labour really decisively anti-Brexit? That may be anti-Boris’s plan at any given moment, but I could never discern what they were for, from what I read.

The Labour shadow cabinet and MP's are anti-Brexit and Corbyn and the Labour supporting electorate were not, which created a massive quandary. The Conservative party were equally split which resulted in over three years in chaos in British politics. Both parties reverted to type, Labour, a dog's dinner trying to please all which resulted in appealing to nobody and the Tories brandishing a Harold Macmillan "long knife" more driven by politics then dogma, cut and slashed until they all faced the same way.

The tragedy is that they both seemed to forget how democracy works. Parliament tried to ignore or fudge an instruction given by the electorate in the form of a referendum. That it was close and they didn't agree with result is immaterial. Parliament is there to serve and represent the population of the UK and because it "knew better" three years have been wasted. I voted remain but am vehemently against a second referendum because that undermines democracy. As for the Brexit policy from the Liberal Party ........  :o
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: "Harry" on December 15, 2019, 06:54:55 AM
We are ready to adopt you!  :)

Do you have dual nationality?

Q

Absolutely Jeffrey, we adopt you! :laugh:
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: "Harry" on December 15, 2019, 06:56:50 AM
How nice. :) Sadly not, otherwise we'd all be Dutch by now in current circumstances. Great Great Grandfather was a Dutchman I think and I gather he may have arrived here on a herring boat. I like to think so anyway but we have been long established in the UK.

The other country I feel very at home in is Finland.

On a separate note my fellow history teaching friend and former colleague wrote this:

'In historical terms I suppose Labour dreamt of 1945 with Red Flag sung in Parliament but got 1784 with defeat of overconfident  London based Whigs by old fashioned conservative people in the shires.  Though not the most sustainable comparison between Fox and Corbyn and Pitt and Johnson, of course.'

Jeffrey, I have send you a PM, please look at it, if you have time, or maybe you already did. :)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Christo on December 15, 2019, 01:59:33 PM
Absolutely Jeffrey, we adopt you! :laugh:
At least your lovely wife and daughter (you as an added bonus).  :D
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 16, 2019, 12:37:50 AM
Absolutely Jeffrey, we adopt you! :laugh:

Thanks my friend!
I'll get my clogs out!
 :)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: vandermolen on December 16, 2019, 12:38:47 AM
At least your lovely wife and daughter (you as an added bonus).  :D
:)
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Ken B on December 18, 2019, 07:55:15 AM
The Hallelujah Chorus
Gardiner


Oops. Wrong thread, thought this was the listening thread.
Title: Re: The Boris Johnson thread.
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 29, 2020, 03:56:51 PM
Boris Johnson has Covid-19. Welcome to the herd, Boris! :)