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The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => Topic started by: deprofundis on December 11, 2019, 04:18:54 PM

Title: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: deprofundis on December 11, 2019, 04:18:54 PM
I love Laments more so than Magnificats so far...

But there are still exception for exceptional Magnificats take per.se Pierre de la rue and Nicolas Gombert did top notch magnificats, this is just my opinion, but try them see for yourself. But I would freely admit Magnificats are harder to get into, at least for me.

Laments or what I prefer above all, In this type of religious music, Laments seem captivating. What paved the way to my liking of Roland de Lassus outstanding Laments of Jeremiah , this was my first introduction to this genre from this starting point I discover lost of interesting music, heart whelming, may I say soulful.

Why i like these genres, the music gently drones away for long time and are mezmerizing whit beautiful moments.

There usually slow pace I kinda like music  that is slow pace and long. But not for everyone, like I would expect a Mozart fan would hate there slow pace and lithurgic contents...

Both Laments & Magnificats demand the listener patience, chilling out, there like a fruit you slowly peal one of these exotic fruits whit heavy skin you ripped, take the dragon fruit I.e, this is not easy music to get into has it demand patience, each listen reveal something news, you did not witness so far.

I can wash the dishes and clean up my home listening to I.e  J.s Bach or whatever, and still focus on the music in the background, but Magnificats and Lamentations, I need my couch to rest and concentration to slowly analyse these patterns or the layers of vocal music.

In other words harder to love, but so amazing. Not really party music but does it mater. Yet there formulated or format for the patient listener.

And yes like I said previously If I listen to these type of music I most hear them all, thus said and meaning, it demand time, take this I.e for facts when I listen to Gombert's Magnificats, I go to hear them in chronological order both album on Tallis Scholars, just like I would do whit Pierre de la Rue, so when I listen to them i Need 2 full hours and no phone ringing or stuff that would ruin it all.

Instrumental music perhaps is less demanding for the brain I don't know, like I said I can listen to Telemann and still do shores at home whiteout ruining the music virtues.

Perhaps it's a perception I have. What your cue on this?

I hope people understand the point of this post and what I'm trying to says Laments and Magnificats demand passion & devotion?

Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 11, 2019, 04:29:08 PM
I love Laments more so than Magnificats so far...

But there are still exception for exceptional Magnificats take per.se Pierre de la rue and Nicolas Gombert did top notch magnificats, this is just my opinion, but try them see for yourself. But I would freely admit Magnificats are harder to get into, at least for me.

Laments or what I prefer above all, In this type of religious music, Laments seem captivating. What paved the way to my liking of Roland de Lassus outstanding Laments of Jeremiah , this was my first introduction to this genre from this starting point I discover lost of interesting music, heart whelming, may I say soulful.

Why i like these genres, the music gently drones away for long time and are mezmerizing whit beautiful moments.

There usually slow pace I kinda like music  that is slow pace and long. But not for everyone, like I would expect a Mozart fan would hate there slow pace and lithurgic contents...

Both Laments & Magnificats demand the listener patience, chilling out, there like a fruit you slowly peal one of these exotic fruits whit heavy skin you ripped, take the dragon fruit I.e, this is not easy music to get into has it demand patience, each listen reveal something news, you did not witness so far.

I can wash the dishes and clean up my home listening to I.e  J.s Bach or whatever, and still focus on the music in the background, but Magnificats and Lamentations, I need my couch to rest and concentration to slowly analyse these patterns or the layers of vocal music.

In other words harder to love, but so amazing. Not really party music but does it mater. Yet there formulated or format for the patient listener.

And yes like I said previously If I listen to these type of music I most hear them all, thus said and meaning, it demand time, take this I.e for facts when I listen to Gombert's Magnificats, I go to hear them in chronological order both album on Tallis Scholars, just like I would do whit Pierre de la Rue, so when I listen to them i Need 2 full hours and no phone ringing or stuff that would ruin it all.

Instrumental music perhaps is less demanding for the brain I don't know, like I said I can listen to Telemann and still do shores at home whiteout ruining the music virtues.

Perhaps it's a perception I have. What your cue on this?

I hope people understand the point of this post and what I'm trying to says Laments and Magnificats demand passion & devotion?
Not easy music to get into? Not for me. As a pre-teenager the more turgid a Lamentation, Magnificat the more I liked it. However, when I reached an age where I begain to understand and consequently reject the sad-masochist theology at the heart of Christian belief systems I had to learn to ignore what was being sung about and only concentrate on the music. Not always easy.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on December 12, 2019, 01:23:27 AM
I love Laments more so than Magnificats so far...

But there are still exception for exceptional Magnificats take per.se Pierre de la rue and Nicolas Gombert did top notch magnificats, this is just my opinion, but try them see for yourself. But I would freely admit Magnificats are harder to get into, at least for me.

Laments or what I prefer above all, In this type of religious music, Laments seem captivating. What paved the way to my liking of Roland de Lassus outstanding Laments of Jeremiah , this was my first introduction to this genre from this starting point I discover lost of interesting music, heart whelming, may I say soulful.

Why i like these genres, the music gently drones away for long time and are mezmerizing whit beautiful moments.

There usually slow pace I kinda like music  that is slow pace and long. But not for everyone, like I would expect a Mozart fan would hate there slow pace and lithurgic contents...

Both Laments & Magnificats demand the listener patience, chilling out, there like a fruit you slowly peal one of these exotic fruits whit heavy skin you ripped, take the dragon fruit I.e, this is not easy music to get into has it demand patience, each listen reveal something news, you did not witness so far.

I can wash the dishes and clean up my home listening to I.e  J.s Bach or whatever, and still focus on the music in the background, but Magnificats and Lamentations, I need my couch to rest and concentration to slowly analyse these patterns or the layers of vocal music.

In other words harder to love, but so amazing. Not really party music but does it mater. Yet there formulated or format for the patient listener.

And yes like I said previously If I listen to these type of music I most hear them all, thus said and meaning, it demand time, take this I.e for facts when I listen to Gombert's Magnificats, I go to hear them in chronological order both album on Tallis Scholars, just like I would do whit Pierre de la Rue, so when I listen to them i Need 2 full hours and no phone ringing or stuff that would ruin it all.

Instrumental music perhaps is less demanding for the brain I don't know, like I said I can listen to Telemann and still do shores at home whiteout ruining the music virtues.

Perhaps it's a perception I have. What your cue on this?

I hope people understand the point of this post and what I'm trying to says Laments and Magnificats demand passion & devotion?

Have you heard these?

https://www.youtube.com/v/7bHXaF40Tmg

https://www.youtube.com/v/RD4P_XQVs4Y
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 12, 2019, 01:34:04 AM
I’m hoping to drag Carlo into the 20th Century. The best performance of this I’ve encountered was given at the funeral of Princess Diana.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMrxJfvSnn8

Or if that’s too ‘modern’ this may touch the spot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzOmPUu-F_M
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Biffo on December 12, 2019, 01:40:06 AM
I take it Carlo is talking about renaissance (and earlier) polyphony when he finds Magnificats dreamy. Suggest he tries Bach's Magnificat, that should wake him up.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 12, 2019, 01:50:00 AM
I take it Carlo is talking about renaissance (and earlier) polyphony when he finds Magnificats dreamy. Suggest he tries Bach's Magnificat, that should wake him up.
Well here’s a good entry into heaven  - - -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We8YYyp8LLo
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Biffo on December 12, 2019, 01:55:27 AM
Well here’s a good entry into heaven  - - -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We8YYyp8LLo

That is indeed very beautiful but the opening movement is rather more bracing.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 12, 2019, 01:57:44 AM
That is indeed very beautiful but the opening movement is rather more bracing.
C’mon, we don’t want to frighten anyone.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Biffo on December 12, 2019, 03:34:14 AM
C’mon, we don’t want to frighten anyone.

If you say so but these sensitive people will need to keep away from Krenek's Lamentatio Jeremiae Prophetae ( Lamentations of Jeremiah)
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: San Antone on December 12, 2019, 04:58:40 AM
There is already a thread for Lamentations https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,24118.msg879029.html#msg879029

As is the case for most, if not all, of Carlo Gesualdo's "threads" - his originating post would almost always be better placed in an existing topic thread - often the Early Music Club.  I think it is preferable to have related discussions appearing in the same topic thread, as opposed to a multitude of threads for posts which would naturally be grouped together. 

But maybe I am in the minority. 
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Biffo on December 12, 2019, 05:13:29 AM
There is already a thread for Lamentations https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,24118.msg879029.html#msg879029

As is the case for most, if not all, of Carlo Gesualdo's "threads" - his originating post would almost always be better placed in an existing topic thread - often the Early Music Club.  I think it is preferable to have related discussions appearing in the same topic thread, as opposed to a multitude of threads for posts which would naturally be grouped together. 

But maybe I am in the minority.

I had forgotten the thread existed even though I was the last person to post on it back in October 2017
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: San Antone on December 12, 2019, 06:26:45 AM
I had forgotten the thread existed even though I was the last person to post on it back in October 2017

I searched the forum and found it.  The search feature is good to use, IMO, prior to creating a new topic thread. 
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on December 12, 2019, 08:39:18 AM
But this isn't  a thread about Lamentations. It's a thread about Lamentations and Magnificats. The ways they resemble each other.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: deprofundis on December 12, 2019, 08:53:41 AM
Yes indeed Mandryka
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 12, 2019, 02:21:37 PM
There is already a thread for Lamentations https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,24118.msg879029.html#msg879029

As is the case for most, if not all, of Carlo Gesualdo's "threads" - his originating post would almost always be better placed in an existing topic thread - often the Early Music Club.  I think it is preferable to have related discussions appearing in the same topic thread, as opposed to a multitude of threads for posts which would naturally be grouped together. 

But maybe I am in the minority.
So where do Magnificats come into that equation? I’m missing something along with this strange idea that’s popped into my head; magnificats cover a mulititude of sins.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: San Antone on December 12, 2019, 02:58:05 PM
But this isn't  a thread about Lamentations. It's a thread about Lamentations and Magnificats. The ways they resemble each other.

So where do Magnificats come into that equation? I’m missing something along with this strange idea that’s popped into my head; magnificats cover a mulititude of sins.

Okay, I stand corrected. 

My understanding is that the Magnificat is usually sung at Vespers.  Whereas Lamentations, sometimes called Tenebrae one of the Thursday chants (Leçons de ténèbres is a French Baroqeu version), are based on the Book of Jeremiah and recited by Jews on Tisha b'Av in memory of the destruction of both Temples - are sung during Holy Week in preparation of Easter by Roman Catholics.  Lamentations are sorrowful  and the Magnificat is song of praise for the Virgin Mary, celebrating her role as mother of the Christ child.  I am not on solid ground concerning Crhistian theology, but I think what I wrote is fairly accurate.

I am not sure there is a connection, but if others can explain one, I'd be interested in hearing about it.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 12, 2019, 03:01:41 PM
Okay, I stand corrected. 
  I am not on solid ground concerning Crhistian theology, but I think what I wrote is fairly accurate.
Neither is the church. I suspect however you meant Christian liturgy.

Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Biffo on December 13, 2019, 02:36:01 AM
Okay, I stand corrected. 

My understanding is that the Magnificat is usually sung at Vespers.  Whereas Lamentations, sometimes called Tenebrae one of the Thursday chants (Leçons de ténèbres is a French Baroqeu version), are based on the Book of Jeremiah and recited by Jews on Tisha b'Av in memory of the destruction of both Temples - are sung during Holy Week in preparation of Easter by Roman Catholics.  Lamentations are sorrowful  and the Magnificat is song of praise for the Virgin Mary, celebrating her role as mother of the Christ child.  I am not on solid ground concerning Crhistian theology, but I think what I wrote is fairly accurate.

I am not sure there is a connection, but if others can explain one, I'd be interested in hearing about it.

That is a more or less accurate summary except that the Lamentations are part of Tenebrae along with the Resonsories (and other prayers) . Some composers set the Lamentations, others the Responsories, some set both (eg. Victoria).
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on December 13, 2019, 03:14:05 AM
Is the text of the lamentations in prose or in verse? I think the magnificat is a prose piece, which creates special problems for a musical setting I guess.

By the way let me take the opportunity to recommend the strange strophic Quadris lamentations on this CD

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51B1SXNLGpL.jpg)
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: deprofundis on December 13, 2019, 03:24:27 AM
 Mandryka vous avez du gôut, j'y jetterai un coup d'oeil= translation dear Mandryka you have good taste I will check that out Love the work of Pierre de la rue.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Biffo on December 13, 2019, 03:25:49 AM
Is the text of the lamentations in prose or in verse. I think the magnificat is a prose piece, which creates special problems for a musical setting I guess.

By the way let me take the opportunity to recommend the strange strophic Quadris lamentations on this CD

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51B1SXNLGpL.jpg)

Both are prose - the Lamentations are taken from the Book of Jeremiah and the Magnificat from the Gospel of Luke. This hasn't been a problem for the countless composers who have set them down the centuries. Likewise the numerous settings of the Mass.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: deprofundis on December 13, 2019, 03:41:33 AM
very interesting, quite enlightening I should says, thanks
folks for details & explications very clever.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on December 13, 2019, 03:50:14 AM
Both are prose - the Lamentations are taken from the Book of Jeremiah and the Magnificat from the Gospel of Luke. This hasn't been a problem for the countless composers who have set them down the centuries. Likewise the numerous settings of the Mass.

Prose is often wordier than verse and verse sometimes has a syllabic or rhythmic structure which can help the task of creating a musical setting,.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on December 13, 2019, 04:12:59 AM
The concept of a lamentation seems to have a life of its own, beyond the liturgy. So there are lamentation motets, like Dufay's Lamentatio sanctae matris ecclesiae Constantinopolitanae, and there are instrumental lamentations, like Froberger's "Lamentation - faite sur la mort très douloureuse de Sa Majesté Imperial Ferdinand le troisième"




As far as magnificat settings are concerned, I've enjoyed Part's very homophonic setting very much

https://www.youtube.com/v/b4NY3iXMBTc

and it may be worth mentioning Stravinsky's lamentations

https://www.youtube.com/v/_RpOOgOeab0
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: deprofundis on December 13, 2019, 04:21:14 AM
Merci Mandryka cher ami, dear Mandryka you seem to know your stuff sir.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: dissily Mordentroge on December 13, 2019, 05:31:38 PM
A small diversion some describe as a baroque lollypop.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVCtCxnJyKY
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on December 15, 2019, 02:37:13 AM
In the 16th century, composers often set part or all of the odd numbered verses of the magnificat, the even numbered verses were intoned.  The melody of the polyphonic settings was sometimes taken from the chant which preceded it. The number of voices used for the polyphonic music varied from verse to verse.

Although the magnificat is prose, each verse falls into two parts and the music often marks this caesura. Here's the text with the caesura marked with an asterisk

Quote
1. Magnificat* anima mea Dominum

2. Et exultavit Spiritus meus* in Deo salutari meo.

3. Quia respexit humilitatem Ancillae suae:* Ecce enim ex hoc Beatam me dicent omnes generations.

4. Quia fecit mihi magna qui potens est:* Et sanctum nomen ejus

5. Et misericordia eius in progenies et progenies* timentibus eum

6. Fecit potentiam in brachio suo* dispersit superbos mente cordis sui

7. Deposuit potentes de sede* et exaltavit humiles

8. Esurientes implevit bonis* et divites dimsisit thanes

9. Suscepit Israhel puerum suum* memorari misericordiae

10. Sicut locutus est ad patres nostros* Abraham et semini eius in saecula

11. Gloria Patri, et Filio,* et Spiritui Sancto

12. Sicut eras in principio, et nunc, et semper,* et in saecula saeculorum. Amen.

There was, of course, the possibility of using the polyphonic music to express the meaning of the text in some way, so it may be useful to have a translation here.

Quote
1. My soul magnifies the Lord

2. And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior;

3. Because He has regarded the lowliness of His handmaid;
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed;

4. Because He who is mighty has done great things for me,
and holy is His name;

5. And His mercy is from generation to generation
on those who fear Him.

6. He has shown might with His arm,
He has scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart.

7. He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and has exalted the lowly.

8. He has filled the hungry with good things,
and the rich He has sent away empty.

9. He has given help to Israel, his servant, mindful of His mercy

10. Even as he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his posterity forever.

11. Glory be to the Father, and to the Son and to the
Holy Spirit

12. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall
be, world without end. Amen.








Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on December 15, 2019, 02:49:04 AM
the Magnificat is song of praise for the Virgin Mary, celebrating her role as mother of the Christ child.



Sure, but you can see how there's scope for a varied  expressive range, for example in

Quote
Esurientes implevit bonis
He has filled the hungry with good things

the composer may choose to represent hunger

And of course

Quote
Quia respexit humilitatem Ancillae suae
Because He has regarded the lowliness of His handmaid

My own experience is that close listening of c16 magnificats reveals a lot of expressive things going on.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on December 15, 2019, 12:41:43 PM
Lamentations are sorrowful  a


And even there in fact it's more interesting than that.  Take an example.  Lamed sounds as though it should be sorrowful

Quote
Lamed. Matribus suis dixerunt: Ubi est triticum
et vinum? cum deficerent quasi vulnerati in
plateis civitatis, cum exhalarent animas suas in
sinu matrum suarum.

They said to their mothers, “Where is the wheat and the
wine?” when they fainted as the wounded in the city
squares, when their soul was poured out into their
mothers’ bosom.


But I don't hear it that way on the new recording of the Brumel Good Friday lamentations, parts of it sound quite jolly to me.


(https://musicasecreta.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/IMG_1583.jpg)
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Biffo on December 16, 2019, 05:27:48 AM
And even there in fact it's more interesting than that.  Take an example.  Lamed sounds as though it should be sorrowful
 

But I don't hear it that way on the new recording of the Brumel Good Friday lamentations, parts of it sound quite jolly to me.


(https://musicasecreta.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/IMG_1583.jpg)

A setting of Lamentations not written for liturgical use and here sung in an arrangement for an all-female choir is hardly typical. Settings of the Lamentations were written for the the most solemn part of the Christian calendar and composers took them very seriously even if you don't.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on December 16, 2019, 07:02:40 AM
A setting of Lamentations not written for liturgical use and here sung in an arrangement for an all-female choir is hardly typical. Settings of the Lamentations were written for the the most solemn part of the Christian calendar and composers took them very seriously even if you don't.

What I'd really like is for you to listen to the lamed, because it may be that my judgement of the affect of the music is completely up the wall; I  don't think that the feeling a bit of music gives rise to in one listener can be generalised to all listeners -- why should it be? 

As far as the liturgical role of the Brumel Lamentations is concerned. after noting that the lamentations have a structure which in some way (which I haven't fully understood yet) corresponds to the conventions of Latin tragedy, Laurie Stras makes this comment

Quote
Reading the setting in this way
makes sense if the manuscript originated in
a confraternity, the lay brotherhoods that
formed the basis of so much of Florence’s
cultural, political, and religious life. Some
indications in P.M.’s manuscript suggest
that it may have belonged to the flagellant
confraternity, the Buca di San Paolo.
Generations of Medici princes were members
of San Paolo, and of the youth confraternity
of San Giovanni Evangelista that shared its
premises. The ‘Vangelista’ were known for
their theatrical productions (including a play
by Lorenzo the Magnificent himself), and
San Paolo held elaborate feasts on Maundy
Thursday which were followed by music
and devotional practices. San Paolo would
be exactly the kind of environment in which
Brumel’s Lamentations might have been performed, separate but not wholly divorced
from their liturgical place as darkness fell
between Maundy Thursday and Good Friday



As far as the performance goes, we read

Quote
Some of the works on this disc, including
Brumel’s Lamentations, have been transposed
into ranges appropriate for female voices, as
was customary for convent choirs throughout
the medieval and early modern periods. Organ
and viol accompaniment was common practice
in convents to sustain lower parts.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: San Antone on December 16, 2019, 07:17:00 AM
Mandryka, I think what is missing from your thinking about Lamentations (btw, what is "lamed"? Is it a reference to the Hebrew letter (chapter) in the original text?) is the fact of the origin of the text. 

The book of the Hebrew Bible is called Eicha, after the first word of the text - the Book of Jeremiah.  The entire text is mourning the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.  It is recited each year on Tisha b'Av (the 9th of the Hebrew month of Av), with the congregation sitting on the floor with only candle light.  Those are customary positions of mourners.  There is nothing lighthearted about the text or the recitation/chanting - which can be quite moving.

Catholics took up the text for Easter week, and similarly it is a serious time of contemplating the days of suffering and crucifixion of Jesus prior to the Resurrection, which is joyful.  But the Lamentations are sung on the days prior to Easter Sunday.

Any performance which does not exhibit the mournful and serious tone would be outside the tradition and context of the text(s).  And while you may find them interesting, or entertaining, you must accept that they are outlier performances.

Peter Phillips has recorded the Brumel Lamentations, and says this about the work:

Quote
Brumel’s only surviving set of Lamentations, one of the most beautiful in the repertory, is also one of the most sombre, building up a rare mood of desolation by low scoring and slow harmonic movement. As was customary, the Hebrew letters (in this case Heth and Caph) are set separately from the main body of the text; less usual was the conception of the last section in triple time, though this suits rather well the accents in the word ‘Ierusalem’.

Changing the pitch to accommodate female voices, goes against the composer's specific intention of the low tesitura for a mournful effect.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on December 16, 2019, 07:25:59 AM
Mandryka, I think what is missing from your thinking about Lamentations (btw, what is "lamed"? Is it a reference to the Hebrew letter (chapter) in the original text?) is the fact of the origin of the text. 

The book of the Hebrew Bible is called Eicha, after the first word of the text - the Book of Jeremiah.  The entire text is mourning the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.  It is recited each year on Tisha b'Av (the 9th of the Hebrew month of Av), with the congregation sitting on the floor with only candle light.  Those are customary positions of mourners.  There is nothing lighthearted about the text or the recitation/chanting - which can be quite moving.

Catholics took up the text for Easter week, and similarly it is a serious time of contemplating the days of suffering and crucifixion of Jesus prior to the Resurrection, which is joyful.  But the Lamentations are sung on the days prior to Easter Sunday.

Any performance which does not exhibit the mournful and serious tone would be outside the tradition and context of the text(s).  And while you may find them interesting, or entertaining, you must accept that they are outlier performances.

I'm not saying that ALL setting of the lamentations are like Brumel's setting of ל. I'm just talking about my thoughts about that particular performance of that particular bit of music. I don't know about outliers and inliers.

But the important thing for me, apart from the discovery of the Brumel, is the notion of dramatic settings of lamentations.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: San Antone on December 16, 2019, 07:27:02 AM
I'm not saying that ALL setting of the lamentations are like Brumel's setting of ל. I'm just talking about my thoughts about that particular performance of that particular bit of music. I don't know about outliers and inliers.

I added this to my previous post, which you may not have seen :

Quote
Brumel’s only surviving set of Lamentations, one of the most beautiful in the repertory, is also one of the most sombre, building up a rare mood of desolation by low scoring and slow harmonic movement. As was customary, the Hebrew letters (in this case Heth and Caph) are set separately from the main body of the text; less usual was the conception of the last section in triple time, though this suits rather well the accents in the word ‘Ierusalem’.

Changing the pitch to accommodate female voices, goes against the composer's specific intention of the low tesitura for a mournful effect.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on December 16, 2019, 07:28:31 AM
I added this to my previous post, which you may not have seen :

Changing the pitch to accommodate female voices, goes against the composer's specific intention of the low tesitura for a mournful effect.

Great! Good work.

I want to hear the Brumel sung by men.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: San Antone on December 16, 2019, 07:32:03 AM
Quote
But the important thing for me, apart from the discovery of the Brumel, is the notion of dramatic settings of lamentations.

My understanding from what you quoted was that the drama was a Passion Play, i.e. an enactment of Jesus' suffering, not the text of Lamentations which might have been sung as part of the performance.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on December 16, 2019, 07:32:32 AM
Though I spoke to soon!

I have a feeling that the Lamentations which Peter Philips is talking about are not at all the same as the lamentations that Musica Secreta recorded, even if both are arguably by the same composer. Can someone confirm.

So irt may well be hasty to  conclude that
Quote
Changing the pitch to accommodate female voices, goes against the composer's specific intention of the low tesitura for a mournful effect.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on December 16, 2019, 07:33:37 AM
My understanding from what you quoted was that the drama was a Passion Play, i.e. an enactment of Jesus' suffering, not the text of Lamentations which might have been sung as part of the performance.

We need to all slow down and read the booklet.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: San Antone on December 16, 2019, 07:34:11 AM
Though I spoke to soon!

I have a feeling that the Lamentations which Peter Philips is talking about are not at all the same as the lamentations that Musica Secreta recorded, even if both are arguably by the same composer. Can someone confirm.

So irt may well be hasty to  conclude that

Included in this set:

(https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/755138121324.png)

Lamentations of Jeremiah
Antoine Brumel (c1460-1512/13)
Lamentations 2: 8, 11
The Tallis Scholars, Peter Phillips (conductor)

He doesn't include the entire work, but three movements:
   
Lamentations of Jeremiah
Antoine Brumel (c1460-1512/13)
   
Heth. Cogitavit Dominus dissipare [3'03]
Caph. Defecerunt prae lacrimis oculi mei [3'52]
Jerusalem, Jerusalem [2'08]
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on December 16, 2019, 07:35:28 AM
I'll check it later, I don't think it's the same music. There's a lot of good stuff online here

https://musicasecreta.com/from-darkness-into-light-short-documentary-film
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: San Antone on December 16, 2019, 07:41:04 AM
I'll check it later, I don't think it's the same music. There's a lot of good stuff online here

https://musicasecreta.com/from-darkness-into-light-short-documentary-film

As far as I can tell, Brumel only wrote one incomplete set of Lamentations, and it is not certain which sections he actually wrote.  There are two verses everyone agrees about, but the rest are speculative.  Musica Secrata is claiming to have the "complete" Brumel Lamentations - but their claim that Brumel wrote all of the music might be contested.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on December 16, 2019, 07:46:31 AM
As far as I can tell, Brumel only wrote one incomplete set of Lamentations, and it is not certain which sections he actually wrote.  There are two verses everyone agrees about, but the rest are speculative.  Musica Secrata is claiming to have the "complete" Brumel Lamentations - but their claim that Brumel wrote all of the music might be contested.

Early music's great! We're not going to run out of work.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: San Antone on December 16, 2019, 08:06:10 AM
Early music's great! We're not going to run out of work.

The only section of Lamentations that Grove attributes to Brumel is "Heth". So even Peter Phillips adds in unsure sections.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Biffo on December 16, 2019, 08:10:09 AM
What I'd really like is for you to listen to the lamed, because it may be that my judgement of the affect of the music is completely up the wall; I  don't think that the feeling a bit of music gives rise to in one listener can be generalised to all listeners -- why should it be? 

As far as the liturgical role of the Brumel Lamentations is concerned. after noting that the lamentations have a structure which in some way (which I haven't fully understood yet) corresponds to the conventions of Latin tragedy, Laurie Stras makes this comment
 


As far as the performance goes, we read

I did listen to the Musica secreta recording or as much of Lamed as I could take. I found it saccharine rather than jolly and out of character with what I would expect from a Lamentation. I have no objection to female voices in mixed choirs, all-female choirs or as soloists in renaissance (and earlier) repertoire but I do not like the sound of Musica secreta in this particular piece. The sleeve notes suggest that the work may have been written for a private performance by a confraternity and so more dramatic than a liturgical setting.

I have the Philips album Perfect Polyphony and the minimal sleeve notes are more or less useless saying nothing about the work. I couldn't find any other recordings of the Brumel.

Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on December 16, 2019, 09:08:36 AM
I did listen to the Musica secreta recording or as much of Lamed as I could take. I found it saccharine rather than jolly and out of character with what I would expect from a Lamentation. I have no objection to female voices in mixed choirs, all-female choirs or as soloists in renaissance (and earlier) repertoire but I do not like the sound of Musica secreta in this particular piece. The sleeve notes suggest that the work may have been written for a private performance by a confraternity and so more dramatic than a liturgical setting.

I have the Philips album Perfect Polyphony and the minimal sleeve notes are more or less useless saying nothing about the work. I couldn't find any other recordings of the Brumel.

Thanks, it does look as though it is indeed a cheerful interpretation. And that leave the fascinating question: why?

 I heard them perform it in Brighton Early Music Festival this year -- I've only gone to the CD once, and that was yesterday.

The only section of Lamentations that Grove attributes to Brumel is "Heth". So even Peter Phillips adds in unsure sections.

Thanks for checking there.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Biffo on December 16, 2019, 09:16:19 AM
Thanks, it does look as though it is indeed a cheerful interpretation. And that leave the fascinating question: why?

 I heard them perform it in Brighton Early Music Festival this year -- I've only gone to the CD once, and that was yesterday.

Thanks for checking there.

I don't think 'cheerful' is the right word, it is just not as dark or austere as I would expect (cf. Victoria).
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: vandermolen on December 16, 2019, 10:23:25 AM
A 20th Century Magnificat which I like very much. In fact this is one of my favourite VW CDs:
(http://)
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on December 24, 2019, 01:38:37 AM
I found it saccharine rather than jolly and out of character with what I would expect from a Lamentation.

They sing like a bunch of renaissance putti.

I rather like Musica Secreta's approach to lamentations. People dance at funerals.

https://www.youtube.com/v/3k3hM_Gcu4Y
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Biffo on December 24, 2019, 02:51:07 AM
They sing like a bunch of renaissance putti.

I rather like Musica Secreta's approach to lamentations. People dance at funerals.

https://www.youtube.com/v/3k3hM_Gcu4Y

The Lamentations weren't written for a funeral but for Vespers on Good Friday. What people do at funerals in West Africa is a complete irrelevance.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on December 24, 2019, 04:12:57 AM
Didn't jesus have a funeral on the Friday? I think the idea is that these vespers were written for a sort of opera after church.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Biffo on December 24, 2019, 04:35:37 AM
Didn't jesus have a funeral on the Friday? I think the idea is that these vespers were written for a sort of opera after church.

Where do you get this witless garbage from? Vespers for Holy Week were also known as Tenebrae because they were celebrated in the early hours of the day before dawn. Vespers for the last three days of the week had a complex liturgy that included Lamentations, Responsories and other prayers. It was a very solemn service for the holiest days of the Church calendar not some pick'n' mix 'opera after church' (whatever that means).
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 24, 2019, 04:35:53 AM
very interesting, quite enlightening I should says, thanks
folks for details & explications very clever.

Although it does not answer to your "Lamentations or Magnificat" choice, I'd suggest Arvo Pärt's Psalms of Repentance.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on December 24, 2019, 06:08:21 AM
Where do you get this witless garbage from? Vespers for Holy Week were also known as Tenebrae because they were celebrated in the early hours of the day before dawn. Vespers for the last three days of the week had a complex liturgy that included Lamentations, Responsories and other prayers. It was a very solemn service for the holiest days of the Church calendar not some pick'n' mix 'opera after church' (whatever that means).

Read the booklet to the CD or go to their website, I think I posted a link, I get the impression that in reality the tradition of lamentations was much broader than you’re aware of, at least at the end of the C15.  That’s one of the reasons why this release is so special.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Biffo on December 24, 2019, 06:28:48 AM
Read the booklet to the CD or go to their website, I think I posted a link, I get the impression that in reality the tradition of lamentations was much broader than you’re aware of, at least at the end of the C15.  That’s one of the reasons why this release is so special.

I have read the booklet to the CD and I have now lost patience with this discussion.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: San Antone on December 24, 2019, 06:30:06 AM
Read the booklet to the CD or go to their website, I think I posted a link, I get the impression that in reality the tradition of lamentations was much broader than you’re aware of, at least at the end of the C15.  That’s one of the reasons why this release is so special.

I have to disagree with you about this release.  I don't think it is important but represents a departure of the tradition. 

The group is basing their concept on speculative interpretation even claiming to have found music of Brumel's which has not been supported by other scholars.  I have noticed that you are attracted to recordings which challenge a consensus interpretation especially if in the process it undermines a religious context.  Which has led me to believe that you might have a subconscious agenda working its way out in these posts.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on December 24, 2019, 06:38:59 AM
I have to disagree with you about this release.  I don't think it is important but represents a departure of the tradition. 

The group is basing their concept on speculative interpretation even claiming to have found music of Brumel's which has not been supported by other scholars.  I have noticed that you are attracted to recordings which challenge a consensus interpretation especially if in the process it undermines a religious context.  Which has led me to believe that you might have a subconscious agenda working its way out in these posts.

It is true that I am a atheist. Militant in fact.

There can’t be a consensus interpretation in this case because no one else has ever performed these lamentations. I’m not suggesting that all lamentations are best performed in a dancing way.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 24, 2019, 06:44:29 AM
Nothing wrong with your being an atheist, of course. Militancy does no one, not even yourself any favors.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on December 24, 2019, 06:46:38 AM
Nothing wrong with your being an atheist, of course. Militancy does no one, not even yourself any favors.

I’m sure you’re right.
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: Mandryka on March 15, 2020, 01:42:30 AM
Another cheerful radiant set of lamentations, rather beautiful too. Carpentras is a new name for me.

It looks like this is an area where the gap between our conception of death or the affect of music  and the c15 one is great, and where it’s a mistake to take a doctrinaire position


(https://img.discogs.com/nvM0CYvuYzrjaHtjiw0o1vlvpnQ=/fit-in/600x599/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-11617613-1559649003-4379.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
Post by: pjme on March 17, 2020, 06:10:46 AM
Yesterday I spent some agreable time searching the Internet and some books on the "Magnificat". Listened to Bachs exuberant version (Herreweghe).
The text inspired many composers throughout the ages.
Monteverdi, Haydn, Mozart, Mendelssohn, Pachelbel....
Henri Du Mont
de Araujo
M.A. Charpentier (lovely sweet, old fashioned 1963 version on YT, conducted by Louis Martini/Erato  https://youtu.be/185k9fLiC4k)
Liszt / Dante symphony
Alan Hovhaness
Luciano Berio
Goffredo Petrassi
Jean Louis Florentz (very mysterious / https://youtu.be/sNUZbfweREI)
Heitor Villa Lobos

P.